Chapter XXI: Part 21

Mr. McWATTERS. No, I believe they had a guy that asked them their address, and they said, "address" and I don't know, he asked them, I believe he asked some of them where they lived or some or them where they worked, or I don't remember just what, in other words, he asked some enough, every one of them to say some few words.

Mr. BALL. You could hear them talk?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir; you could hear them talk.

Mr. BALL. Was any one man boisterous, mean, loud, anything of that sort?

Mr. McWATTERS. No, not that I could tell any difference. They all talked to me as, in other words, you just asked them their name and address. If they did, I didn't pay any attention to it.

(At this point, Representative Ford entered the hearing room.)

Mr. BALL. This is Exhibit No. 376 that I will show you again. You have indicated on the map the course of your bus south on Marsalis. Is there any other bus route that goes south on any street east of Marsalis?

Mr. McWATTERS. You mean that crosses it this way?

Mr. BALL. No, goes south.

Mr. McWATTERS. Well, let's see.

Mr. BALL. Is there a main highway called Denley? Is there a bus route on Ewing?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir. Bus route on Ewing.

Mr. BALL. That goes south on Ewing?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Does that bus come anywhere near, does that bus run down Elm?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Where does it turn to get to Ewing?

Mr. McWATTERS. In other words, it turns, it goes just like the Marsalis bus here goes, until he gets----

Mr. BALL. Let's start up at Elm here, Elm and Houston now. Does the bus that goes down Ewing come west on Elm?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Does it go by St. Paul and Elm?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Have a starting point there?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir; it is a final point for it right there.

Mr. BALL. And it goes west on Elm?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Where does it turn off Elm?

Mr. McWATTERS. It turns the same place as I do, in other words.

Mr. BALL. South on Houston?

Mr. McWATTERS. South on Houston.

Mr. BALL. And then does it go across the Houston Street viaduct?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Then it turns on, how does it get onto Ewing?

Mr. McWATTERS. It comes on out to Marsalis to, let's see, I have to find the zoo. That is where it turns right there at the Marsalis Park, and turns and goes over to Ewing, let's see, what is the name of that--this bus turns to the left off Marsalis there, it is a park--there is a big expressway there and it is the first street when it crosses over the expressway where it turns off of Marsalis on Opera. The name of the bus is Ramona, it is the same, in other words, it is the same line as this other one.

Mr. BALL. As I understand it now the bus that goes down Ewing comes off the Houston Street viaduct as far as, comes down the Houston Street viaduct as far as Marsalis, does it?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir; and it goes south on Marsalis.

Mr. BALL. It goes south on Marsalis?

Mr. McWATTERS. That is right.

Mr. BALL. And it turns over to Ewing, that would be east on Ewing?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes; that would be east.

Mr. BALL. At or about what point?

Mr. McWATTERS. Well, in other words, that is the Marsalis Zoo is where it is, after you cross the expressway there, it is the first street, Opera is the name of that and it goes right down to Ewing.

Mr. BALL. Then at the corner of 11th, at the intersection of 11th and Marsalis both buses travel the same route?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir; they sure do. Both buses travel the same route to Marsalis and the Ramona bus on that part travel the same route.

Mr. BALL. Probably on the same route.

Now, I show you this document which is the bus schedule of Marsalis-Ramona-Elwood-Munger, and it shows you leave St. Paul at 12:36 and you arrive at Lamar 12:40.

The bus transfers are punched you told me for 1 o'clock. We have a transfer here that you have seen or we will show you in a few minutes as soon as it gets here, which has a punch mark of 1 o'clock. You told Senator Cooper that you usually punched within 15 minutes of the time you reached the transfer points?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. If that is the case, what----

Mr. McWATTERS. You mean why did I have it punched at 1 o'clock?

Mr. BALL. Yes.

Mr. McWATTERS. Because I punch it p.m. In other words, I have a punch, I am going to Lakewood, I mean I am going Marsalis and I am going back Lakewood, so I just take me two books of transfers. Instead of punching one of them a.m. and one p.m. I just punched them p.m.

Mr. BALL. Do you punch within 15 minutes of the time you reach the transfer points?

Mr. McWATTERS. That is the way that the transfers are supposed to be cut.

Mr. BALL. Well, if you reach Lamar, if you were to reach Lamar at 12:40, what time, according to the rules should you punch it?

Mr. McWATTERS. I should have punched it at 12:45.

Mr. BALL. At 12:45?

Mr. McWATTERS. But I would have to punch one book a.m. and another one p.m., so I just punched both of them p.m.

Mr. BALL. In other words, what you do is punch on the hour rather than the 45 and 15 minutes usually?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. In other words, your usual practice is not to punch on the 15-minute interval, is that right, but to punch on the hour?

Mr. McWATTERS. Well, just like I say within the closest of the hour like that, in other words.

Mr. BALL. Suppose today you were wanting to punch some transfers at the end of the line and you knew you were going to get to Lamar at 12:40. Would you punch--what would you punch it?

Mr. McWATTERS. I work that run all the time, I punch at 1 o'clock every day. As I say I worked it 2 years and as I say in order to keep from punching one of them a.m. and one p.m., for the difference in the hour there, I just punch them p.m.

Mr. BALL. I don't quite understand that. Doesn't your p.m. start at after 12 o'clock?

Mr. McWATTERS. Well, the way the transfers are there, did you notice how they was, they run them until--see how 12:45 there, in other words, that is what they use that up to a.m. in other words.

Mr. BALL. It is 12:45 a.m., it runs up to a.m.

Mr. McWATTERS. That is what they run it to a.m. In other words, after 12:45 or in there, in other words, everything is punched p.m.

Mr. BALL. In other words, everything in the hour from 12 on is punched a.m., the day time, 12 to one is a.m., 12 to 12:45, for that hour, a transfer good in that hour is punched a.m., is that right?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, it can be punched a.m. up to, just like 12:45.

Mr. BALL. And the next punch is 1 o'clock and that is p.m.?

Mr. McWATTERS. That is p.m.; yes, sir. That is the way they have them.

Representative FORD. The day that you punched this particular transfer, November 22?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir.

Representative FORD. You punched them the same that day as you did every other day?

Mr. McWATTERS. That is right. Every day, in other words, I just punch them p.m. I punch them p.m., and in other words, so it will be just a straight cut across it.

Representative FORD. Is that the usual practice for all bus drivers to use this practice?

Mr. McWATTERS. The practice they are supposed to cut them within the quarter of the hour, but in other words, I just have been working that run and I just, it is p.m., and I just make one trip one way and one back the other, and so I--all I carry are two books of transfers and so I just punch two books p.m., using one going one way at 1 o'clock and the other coming back at 2.

Representative FORD. This is the practice you have used for 2 years approximately?

Mr. McWATTERS. That is right, when I worked that run, in other words, when I am going one way at 1 o'clock, coming back from the other end of the line I set them at 2. I am back in there at, my next trip I am back in there at Lamar Street, I think it is 1:38 but I always just set them at 2 o'clock.

Mr. BALL. We have a couple of more pictures here. 378 and 379 which are pictures of the interior of the bus--Nos. 379 and 380. (Picture marked for identification as Commission Exhibit No. 374 is the same as Commission Exhibit No. 379.)

I will first show you 379. Is that a picture of the bus from front to rear of your bus?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir; that is the front and that is the rear.

Mr. BALL. Here is 380, is that a picture of the bus taken from the front taken looking towards the rear?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. I offer these in evidence, too.

Representative FORD. So admitted.

(The pictures referred to were marked Commission's Exhibits Nos. 379 and 380 and received in evidence.)

Mr. BALL. I have here an exhibit which I would like to have marked as 381 which can be identified as a transfer issued by Dallas Transit Company, Friday, November 22, 1963.

Do you identify it, can you tell me, if you have ever seen that transfer before?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, that is my punch mark right on that there; p.m.

(The transfer was marked Commission Exhibit No. 381 for identification.)

Mr. BALL. You issued it, did you?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Tell me when you issued it, on what run?

Mr. McWATTERS. I issued it on Marsalis and Munger line at I would say, around to the best of my knowledge it would be around 12:40 or somewheres in that vicinity on November 22.

Mr. BALL. And it has your punch mark, has it?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir; that is my punch mark.

Mr. BALL. Identify it punched in the p.m. section?

Mr. McWATTERS. Of the Lakewood column here on the transfer.

Mr. BALL. When did you punch it exactly? Where were you when you punched it?

Mr. McWATTERS. I punched it before I left the end of the line, in other words.

Mr. BALL. This is number 004459, is the transfer number. Entitled "The Shoppers Transfer." Every transfer has a separate number, has it?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir; everyone has a separate number.

Mr. BALL. What we would like to do is mark a photostat of the transfer as 381A and substitute the photostat and we can return the transfer to the custody of the FBI.

Representative FORD. The exhibit will be admitted.

(The photostat referred to was marked Commission Exhibit 381A and received in evidence.)

Representative FORD. How many of those transfers did you issue on this particular run?

Mr. McWATTERS. Well----

Representative FORD. Up to the time you passed the Texas School Depository.

Mr. McWATTERS. I really don't know because I didn't, see. I didn't know anything--I didn't put out any--most of the transfers that you put out at this time or that time of day are for elderly women which get the shopper's transfers, in other words. It has got a line there, and it entitles them to a free ride back to where they came from, in other words, and that time of the morning, because when I get downtown, in other words, you can catch a bus at Elm Street going to any place that I would go without having a transfer, in other words.

Representative FORD. Would you have any recollection of how many passengers you picked up from the beginning of the line to the time that this man got on at the middle of the block on Elm Street?

Mr. McWATTERS. Well, I don't--I recall that I didn't have very many passengers that day, because I figured that everybody had done gone to town to see the parade, to see the President, and it just wasn't what few passengers I recall was mostly elderly women that was going into town.

I don't recall just how many of them I did have on the bus.

Representative FORD. But you did have these two men, the teenager and this other young man?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir; that were on the bus.

Representative FORD. And you very specifically recall giving a transfer to this woman with the suitcase and the man who was in the second seat on the right-hand side?

Mr. McWATTERS. On the right side that got off. In other words, to the best of my knowledge that is the only two transfers that I put out going through town that I can recall at all, I mean, because I don't recall putting out any more transfers than those two that I put out when I was held up there in traffic.

Mr. BALL. Mr. McWatters, on this transfer is the name of Shopper's Transfer.

Does that have any significance?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir; that is what I was telling him. In other words, if they want a Shoppers; well I put my punch mark in that Shoppers there, which they cannot use it for a transfer, in other words, any more than other than--all the stores, most of them in downtown Dallas, if you buy as much as a dollar's worth between the period of ten and four in the afternoon they give you a little white slip which entitled you to ride what is called the Shopper's Pass. It rides you back, but in other words you have to, a passenger has to, ask for it in other words.

When they say a Shopper, you take a punch and punch your punch mark where it says Shoppers, but they are not supposed to use the transfer then to transfer to another bus. They are supposed, in other words, where it is punched in the store, get it exchanged for their return fare.

Mr. BALL. In other words, all your transfers have on them printed the word "Shopper's Transfer"?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir; they do.

Mr. BALL. And in order to make it a Shopper's Transfer so that the transfer can be exchanged for a merchandise coupon to ride home, it has to have your punch in the Shopper's Transfer area, is that right?

Mr. McWATTERS. That is correct, yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did you know, did you remember, an elderly woman getting on your bus some place on Elm after you left St. Paul?

Mr. McWATTERS. Not that I recall.

Mr. BALL. Do you remember when this man, do you remember when this man knocked on your window, and you opened your bus and let him on, some place around Murphy or Griffin and Elm, that an elderly woman got up in the bus and moved?

Did you see that or anything like that?

Mr. McWATTERS. No, I don't recall.

Mr. BALL. Do you know whether or not you left an elderly woman off down around in the Oak Cliff area some place?

Mr. McWATTERS. The best I can recall I had two or three or four elderly women, the best I can remember on the bus when I left town, but I don't recall where any of them got off.

Mr. BALL. Do you know a woman named Mary Bledsoe?

Did you pick anybody up at St. Paul and Elm?

Mr. McWATTERS. I really don't--I really can't recall whether I did or not.

Mr. BALL. I have no further questions.

Senator COOPER. I would like to ask a few, if I may.

Am I correct in saying that the direction of your bus at the time of these events you have testified to it was going west on Elm Street?

Mr. McWATTERS. West on Elm. In other words, west, the streets of Dallas all run east and west.

Senator COOPER. But when you got to Houston Street, then you turned south?

Mr. McWATTERS. I turned south, that is correct.

Senator COOPER. Did your bus pass the Texas School Book Depository?

Mr. McWATTERS. Well----

Senator COOPER. I mean does it pass it directly?

Mr. McWATTERS. It doesn't pass it directly, no, sir. In other words, where I turn to the left on Houston Street, the book store is across on the opposite corner.

Senator COOPER. Now, as you reached Lamar Street, or did you reach Lamar Street on that date before you passed near the Texas School Book Depository?

Mr. McWATTERS. You mean--yes, I have to pass Lamar Street before I get down to there.

Senator COOPER. Now, this first affidavit you made on November 22----

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir.

Senator COOPER. Which has been referred to in the testimony.

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes.

Senator COOPER. It stated in this affidavit that, "I picked up a man on the lower end of town on Elm around Houston."

Now, you picked up a man at that time it would have been after you passed Lamar Street?

Mr. McWATTERS. It would have been after I passed Lamar.

Senator COOPER. The remainder of the affidavit, which has been made a part of the testimony----

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes.

Senator COOPER. Refers to that you picked up a woman and you asked her if she knew the President had been shot, and then the man--you asked her then to speak to the man behind her.

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes.

Senator COOPER. "Who said the President was shot in the temple." Now, then, this incident that you testified to in this affidavit, was after you had passed Elm Street?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir; that is right.

Senator COOPER. Was the man that you were talking about in this affidavit the teenager?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir.

Senator COOPER. At the time this affidavit was made, were you asked about any other man who may have been on the run that day at that time?

Mr. McWATTERS. I don't remember whether I was or not.

Senator COOPER. What was it then that caused you at some time later to remember that another man had got on the bus near Murphy and had left the bus, as you have stated in 2 or 3 blocks in the vicinity of Elm Street?

Mr. McWATTERS. Well, just like I say, the best I can remember is the man, I believe in fact beside the boy, I believe he was the only man on board the bus. After I got to recall, in other words----

Senator COOPER. But what I am asking you is what it was that caused you to remember the teenager at the time you made this affidavit on the 22d, and what it was that, why it was that, you didn't at that time speak of the other man who had got on the bus?

Mr. McWATTERS. That is what I say, it just didn't--it just doesn't register, I don't know.

Senator COOPER. Were you asked whether or not any other man was on the bus?

Mr. McWATTERS. I don't remember whether I was or not.

Senator COOPER. When was it that you remembered about the second man being on the bus, the man that you now state got on around Murphy Street and got off at Elm?

Mr. McWATTERS. Well. I just studied and tried to remember everything that I could. In other words, I still, you know, just try to see if I could remember any incidents or anything that was said or done that I hadn't thought of and everything.

Senator COOPER. I think you stated you did not give the teenager any transfer?

Mr. McWATTERS. No, I don't--no.

Senator COOPER. Was the fact then that you were shown a transfer by the police that called your attention to that?

Mr. McWATTERS. I guess that would probably be----

Senator COOPER. Another man?

Mr. McWATTERS. That would probably be the reason.

I don't know of any other reason that it would be unless it was the transfer, that I can recall.

Senator COOPER. Are you absolutely certain that you did see another man on that bus?

Mr. McWATTERS. Do you mean the day?

Senator COOPER. A man other than the teenager?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir; I picked up a man.

Senator COOPER. Where?

Mr. McWATTERS. Along about Griffin Street that knocked on the door of the bus.

Senator COOPER. Is that near Murphy?

Mr. McWATTERS. That is near Murphy, in other words, Murphy is over here zig-zags, Griffin zig-zags across to Murphy.

Senator COOPER. Why was it then that when you made this affidavit, you wouldn't remember that a man knocked on the door to get in the bus?

Mr. McWATTERS. Just like I say, I guess it never did dawn on me until I just got to thinking about it and everything, and I had this boy, I mean was the one I was referring to in that affidavit right there.

In other words, he was just kind of a slight build, so far as him and Oswald, I guess they probably somewhere in the same size, I don't know. But I was mistaken in that, in other words, that was the boy right there----

Senator COOPER. Did the police ask you if any man other than the teenager was on the bus?

Mr. McWATTERS. I don't recall whether they did or not.

Senator COOPER. Did you tell the police at that time on the 22d or the Federal Bureau of Investigation on the 23d about a man knocking on the window and wanting to get into the bus?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, I believe I did.

Senator COOPER. What is it about this transfer that makes you know that it was a transfer which you issued?

Mr. McWATTERS. Well, you look at that old punch mark, I guess as many times as I have punched it----

Senator COOPER. Does each--does each driver have a different punch?

Mr. BALL. When you weren't here he showed us his punch and he punched it for us. He has got his punch.

Mr. McWATTERS. Each driver has a different punch. They all are registered. In other words, regardless of how many there are--that is my punch right there--there is some shape or form different, just like I say the superintendent has every man's name and a punch mark right on down, in other words, so when----

Senator COOPER. Do you know whether the punches are different in the shape that they make?

Mr. McWATTERS. No, sir; no, sir; I don't know anything about that. I know----

Senator COOPER. What you are saying is, then, you have punched so many of these transfer that you recognize your own punch?

Mr. McWATTERS. I can recognize my own punchmark. I don't think there is supposed to be another----

Senator COOPER. Is there anything else on the transfer which indicates that it was one which would be issued on your bus?

Mr. McWATTERS. Well, except only where it is punched--in other words, I come off of Lakewood Boulevard there where that would be the only distinction right there, is the punchmark and the name of where I have it punched there.

Senator COOPER. Did anyone tell you, either the police or the FBI or any other officer or any other person, tell you at the time you made your first affidavit or later that there was another man reported to have been on your bus and got off?

Mr. McWATTERS. I don't recall.

Senator COOPER. Have you ever reported to the police the fact that you have carried as a passenger since November 22d the teenager whom you have now identified as having the name of Milton Jones?

Mr. McWATTERS. Did I ever report it to the police?

Senator COOPER. Yes.

Mr. McWATTERS. No, sir.

Senator COOPER. Have they ever been back to talk to you any more about this?

Mr. McWATTERS. No, sir.

Senator COOPER. About this matter?

Mr. McWATTERS. They have never been back to me. The only time they have talked to me----

Senator COOPER. Did you ever see----

Mr. McWATTERS. I beg pardon?

Senator COOPER. You saw--was any of the men in the police lineup ever identified to you as being Lee Oswald?

Mr. McWATTERS. Any men in the----

Senator COOPER. Yes, I think you saw the men in the lineup, didn't you?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes.

Senator COOPER. Before you were asked to select a man in the lineup, did the police or any officer identify any one of them as bearing the name of Lee Oswald?

Mr. McWATTERS. No, sir; they never stated anything.

Senator COOPER. Later was he identified to you in any way?

Mr. McWATTERS. Was he identified to me?

Senator COOPER. As being Lee Oswald?

Mr. McWATTERS. No, they didn't tell me as far as saying, mentioning any name Lee Oswald, it was never, the name Lee Oswald, I don't believe was ever mentioned while we was back there.

Senator COOPER. Did you ever see this same man you call No. 2 in the lineup again--did you ever go back there after that time and see this same person again?

Mr. McWATTERS. No, sir.

Senator COOPER. Identified as No. 2?

Mr. McWATTERS. No, sir; I never did go back any more, that was the only time I was ever there was the one on November 22, about 6 something in the afternoon.

Senator COOPER. Have you seen photographs of a man who is named in those photographs as being Lee Oswald?

Mr. McWATTERS. Have I saw them?

Senator COOPER. Yes, sir.

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir.

Senator COOPER. Well, now, you have seen this young man, Milton Jones, several times since then?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir.

Senator COOPER. Now after having seen him several times since then, and having seen these photographs of the man who is identified as Lee Oswald----

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes.

Senator COOPER. Does Milton Jones look like Lee Oswald?

Mr. McWATTERS. Well, they both, just like I say, about the same height, and same build, and everything, as far as identifying looking at a man in the face--of course, I know him now, distinctly.

Senator COOPER. But at this time would you identify him as Lee Oswald from the photographs you have seen of Lee Oswald?

Mr. McWATTERS. Right now?

Senator COOPER. Yes.

Mr. McWATTERS. No. At the time, I couldn't then, in other words, even from the recalling of what I seen him then, I mean just to say that the height and size of him, no, I wouldn't make the statement that I could now.

Senator COOPER. Are you certain that you did see some man who knocked on the window of your door of your bus and wanted to get in your bus at some point near Murphy?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir; I am positive about that. There was----

Senator COOPER. You saw that man get off later?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes.

Senator COOPER. Before you got to----

Mr. McWATTERS. Before I got to Lamar Street, between Poydras and Lamar.

Senator COOPER. That is all.

Mr. McWATTERS. The best I can remember is that is where I issued two transfers. That is the best I can remember.

Mr. BALL. To clear this matter up with your punch, you have your punch there, have you?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. That was issued to you by the Dallas Transit Company?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Does that make a different mark in a transfer than any other punch issued to any other driver in the Dallas Transit Company?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. It is a distinctive mark?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir; it is supposed to be, there is not supposed to be any driver that has a punch that makes a punchmark like my punch.

Mr. BALL. So your supervisor could take this transfer and compare it with his list in his office?

Mr. McWATTERS. That is right.

Mr. BALL. And he could see McWatters issued this transfer?

Mr. McWATTERS. That is right; that is the way, if they have any complaint, any transfers brought in to him, he has a list. When he looked at the punchmark he knows the man's name, and his badge number.

Mr. BALL. And this document here which is 381, you have identified that punchmark as the one made by your punch?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir; that punchmark was made by that punch right there.

Mr. BALL. Now, there are on this transfer two punches, there is one in p.m., and there is marked punch Lakewood. Now, the p.m., refers to the time?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. But Lakewood refers to a certain location on your run, doesn't it?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. If this transfer was issued around the Lamar area or St. Paul--Elm area, is there any place that you could punch and show that particular location?

Mr. McWATTERS. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. You always punch at the end of your destination?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, that is the usual procedure on it.

Mr. BALL. Now, on one side of Lakewood is Beckley, where is that?

Mr. McWATTERS. Well, that is on the opposite of town from----

Mr. BALL. The other side is Capital. Where is that?

Mr. McWATTERS. Capital, well, Capital is in north Dallas, I believe it is.

Mr. BALL. Are those Beckley lines listed on the transfer on your run?

Mr. McWATTERS. No, sir; I don't--you mean on the transfer?

Mr. BALL. Yes.

Mr. McWATTERS. Well, that is, in other words, we all--they have so many of the lines listed, in other words, I believe they have two divisions, I believe all the buses that work out of the east Dallas division have----

Mr. BALL. We can make this pretty simple. You have on this transfer certain names. When you are running Marsalis-Ramona-Elwood-Munger, how many possible punches would--location punches would you make?

Mr. McWATTERS. In other words, if I was--Marsalis when I left the end of Marsalis out there I would punch my transfer Marsalis, if I left the end of Ramona I would punch them Ramona. In other words, that is so they can't ride them, in other words, they can't ride the transfer.

Mr. BALL. Now, Lakewood is at one end of your run?

Mr. McWATTERS. That is right.

Mr. BALL. And Marsalis-Ramona-Elwood is the other, is that right?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. So you would punch one of those names?

Mr. McWATTERS. Going that way, while at Marsalis, I would punch the Lakewood when I would leave Marsalis coming toward Lakewood, I would have Lakewood on the front of my bus but I would punch the transfer Marsalis.

Mr. BALL. I have no further questions.

Representative FORD. Thank you very much, Mr. McWatters.

Mr. McWATTERS. Thank you, gentlemen.

TESTIMONY OF WILLIAM WAYNE WHALEY RESUMED

Mr. BALL. Mr. Whaley. I have here an exhibit which I will mark 370.

(The document was marked Commission Exhibit No. 370 for identification.)

Mr. BALL. 370 is a photostat of a manifest of yours, and it is dated November 22, 1963. I mark this 370. Do you recognize that?

Mr. WHALEY. That is the original trip sheet.

Mr. BALL. In your handwriting?

Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir; in my handwriting.

Mr. BALL. I will offer this into evidence at this time, and the original trip sheet as Exhibit No. 382.

Representative FORD. So admitted.

(Commission Exhibits Nos. 370 and 382 were received in evidence.)

Mr. BALL. I have here a bracelet which is marked 383. Take a look at it and tell me if you have ever seen it before.

Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir; as near as I can tell that is the bracelet he was wearing the day I carried him, the shiny bracelet I was talking about.

Mr. BALL. You mentioned the fact that the man who sat in the front seat of your cab, which you drove from the Greyhound Station on Lamar Street over to 500 North Beckley, had an identification bracelet on him.

Mr. WHALEY. Yes, it looked like an identification bracelet. It looks like this one, sir, it was shiny, I couldn't tell exactly whether that was the bracelet or not.

Mr. BALL. But it looks like one of them?

Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir; it looks like it.

Mr. BALL. Offer this in evidence.

Representative FORD. So admitted.

(Commission Exhibit No. 383 was withdrawn and a photograph of the bracelet was received as Commission Exhibit No. 383-A.)

Representative FORD. What hand or what arm did he have it on?

Mr. WHALEY. He had it on the arm next to me, which was the left arm.

Representative FORD. Was it protruding below the sleeve or jacket?

Mr. WHALEY. His coatsleeve was like this when he stretches his arm out it was short, that is when I saw it.

Representative FORD. Where was his hand when you saw it, if you can recollect it?

Mr. WHALEY. Well, just moving. You know you catch any bright object, why you notice it, that is how I noticed it. He was just moving his hand around. When the old lady stuck her head in the door and asked me to call her a cab, why he reached over to the door to open it like he told her she could have that one but she decided that she would wait for the next one because he already had that one. And that is when I saw it, sir.

In the picture, I believe, I don't think he had it on in that picture in the paper the next morning.

Representative FORD. This is something you clearly noticed while he was riding in the car with you?

Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir; I noticed it; yes, sir. I always notice watchbands, unusual watchbands, and identification bracelets like these, because I make them myself. I made this one.

Representative FORD. In other words, you have a particular interest in them?

Mr. WHALEY. Yes, I particularly notice things like that.

Representative FORD. Did you notice anything unusual about it?

Mr. WHALEY. No, sir, it was just a common stretchband identification bracelet. A lot of them are made of chain links and not stretchbands. Stretchbands are unusual because there is very few of them.

Representative FORD. In other words, this was an unusual band?

Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir; this one was a stretchband like the one you showed me.

Representative FORD. It is sort of a hobby with you to make these kinds of wristbands?

Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir; I make watchbands like that.

Mr. BALL. Do you recall when you told, talked to the Dallas police officers that you told them that you had seen a heavy identification bracelet on this passenger's wrist?

Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir, I told them about the bracelet.

Mr. BALL. You told the FBI officers, also?

Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir; but I don't remember saying it was heavy because I wouldn't have known how heavy it was without handling it.

Mr. BALL. You described the bracelet?

Mr. WHALEY. I just described the bracelet as a shiny bracelet.

Mr. BALL. A moment ago you told us about this man getting into your cab and an old lady coming up and asking for a cab.

Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did the man sitting next to you open the door?

Mr. WHALEY. He just started to, sir, just reached for door handle and she said she wanted me to call one. She didn't want that.

Mr. BALL. Did the man who was sitting beside you in the cab say anything?

Mr. WHALEY. Only that she could have that one.

Mr. BALL. He said that?

Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. I think that is all.

Any other questions of this witness?

Did you describe the shirt that this man had on to the police?

Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir, I did.

Mr. BALL. What did you tell them?

Mr. WHALEY. To the best of my ability, I did, sir. I just told them it was a dark colored shirt with what looked like a silver lining.

Mr. BALL. Were you shown the shirt later?

Mr. WHALEY. About, it was at least a week later, sir, an FBI man brought the shirt over and showed it to me.

Mr. BALL. Is that the same shirt you saw here?

Mr. WHALEY. I think it is, sir. I am not positive but it had the same kind of silver streak in it.

Mr. BALL. What did you tell the FBI man who brought the shirt to you?

Mr. WHALEY. I told him to the best of my ability that was the shirt he had on.

Mr. BALL. Did the man riding with you say anything at all except tell you where he wanted to go?

Mr. WHALEY. That is all, sir, except he said when we got to where he wanted to go he said, "This will do fine," when I pulled over.

Mr. BALL. Now, in the police lineup now, and this man was talking to the police and telling them he wanted a lawyer, and that they were trying to, you say he said they were trying to, frame him or something of that sort----

Mr. WHALEY. Well, the way he talked that they were doing him an injustice by putting him out there dressed different than these other men he was out there with.

Mr. BALL. Now, did anyone, any policeman, who was there, say anything to him?

Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir; Detective Sergeant Leavelle, I believe it was, told him that they had, would get him his lawyers on the phone, that they didn't think they were doing him wrong by putting him out there dressed up.

Representative FORD. Did the man you identified have any reaction when they brought the group out, did he have any reaction that you noticed at the time you identified him?

Mr. WHALEY. Only that he was the only one that had the bruise on his head, sir. The only one who acted surly. In other words, I told this Commission this morning you wouldn't have had to have known who it was to have picked him out by the way he acted. But he was the man that I carried in my taxicab. I told them when I identified him. I didn't identify him as the man who shot the President. I identified him as the man who rode from the Greyhound to 1500 North Beckley with me.

Representative FORD. Did you point him out with your hand?

Mr. WHALEY. No, sir; I did not. They asked me which number he was standing under and he was standing under No. 2.

Representative FORD. Could he hear you make this identification?

Mr. WHALEY. No, sir; he couldn't see me.

Representative FORD. He couldn't see you?

Mr. WHALEY. No, sir; they had the black silk screen that keeps the prisoners from seeing the people who show up.

Mr. BALL. I have no further questions.

Senator COOPER. I have no questions.

Mr. BALL. Do you know a taxi driver named Darrell Click?

Mr. WHALEY. I may know his face, sir, but not his name.

Mr. BALL. You don't know his name?

Mr. WHALEY. We go mostly by numbers.

Mr. BALL. Okay, no further questions.

The witness is excused.

Representative FORD. May we wait just a moment, please? Would you like to make a statement, Mr. Powell?

Mr. POWELL. Mr. Chairman, I think I might say just this: I am here representing Mr. Walter Craig, as I think the Commission understands. I have been here the last two days. In a conversation with Mr. Rankin yesterday morning we agreed that rather than my asking questions directly of witnesses, I would make suggestions to Mr. Ball or to one of his associates, and I have been following that practice yesterday and today, after consulting with Mr. Murray who is also here for Mr. Craig, and Mr. Ball and his associates have followed up these suggestions that we have made.

Representative FORD. The suggestions you have made have been transmitted to Mr. Ball or his associates and have been asked of the various witnesses?

Mr. POWELL. That is correct.

Representative FORD. Any other questions?

Thank you very much, Mr. Whaley.

Mr. WHALEY. Thank you, sir. I am glad to be able to be of service.

(Whereupon, at 12:30 p.m., the President's Commission recessed.)

_Friday, March 13, 1964_

TESTIMONY OF MRS. KATHERINE FORD, DECLAN P. FORD, AND PETER PAUL GREGORY

The President's Commission met at 9:10 a.m. on Friday, March 13, 1964, at 200 Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C.

Present were Chief Justice Earl Warren, Chairman; Representative Gerald R. Ford, member.

Also present were Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel; Norman Redlich, assistant counsel; and Charles Murray, observer.

TESTIMONY OF MRS. KATHERINE FORD

The CHAIRMAN. The Commission will be in order.

Mrs. Ford, I would just like to read to you a short statement concerning the purpose of the meeting.

I think you have had a copy of it but I will just read it for the record.

Mrs. FORD. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. The purpose of this hearing is to take the testimony of Mr. and Mrs. Declan P. Ford and Mr. Peter Paul Gregory. The Commission has been advised that Mr. and Mrs. Ford made the acquaintance of the Oswalds shortly after their arrival in the United States in June of 1962, and that Mrs. Marina Oswald lived in the Ford home on two different occasions in November 1962, and for a period following February 12, 1964.

The Commission has also been advised that Mr. Gregory was contacted by Mr. Lee Harvey Oswald shortly after Mr. Oswald's return from Russia as a result of which Mr. and Mrs. Oswald made the acquaintance of a large number of Russian-speaking people in the Dallas and Fort Worth area.

Since the Commission is inquiring fully into the background and possible motive of Lee Harvey Oswald, the alleged assassin, it intends to ask the above witnesses questions concerning Mr. Oswald, his associations and relations with others and any and all other matters relating to the assassination.

Would you please rise and be sworn, Mrs. Ford.

Do you solemnly swear the testimony you give before the Commission will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mrs. FORD. I do.

The CHAIRMAN. You may be seated. Mr. Liebeler will conduct the examination.

Mr. LIEBELER. Would you state your full name for the record, please?

Mrs. FORD. My maiden name?

Mr. LIEBELER. Yes.

Mrs. FORD. Katrina Evstratova.

Mr. LIEBELER. Where were you born, Mrs. Ford?

Mrs. FORD. Nova Tchkarsk.

Mr. LIEBELER. Could you tell us just briefly how you came to come to the United States, Mrs. Ford?

Mrs. FORD. How I came to the United States; I was in Germany during the war. I was taken there by Germans, not in concentration camps, but in labor camp, and after we were liberated by Americans I got acquainted with an American soldier and was married to him, and that is how I came straight to Dallas.

Mr. LIEBELER. What was this soldier's name that you married?

Mrs. FORD. Skotnicki.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you were married to him in about 1946?

Mrs. FORD. That is correct.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you subsequently divorced him?

Mrs. FORD. Approximately 4 years ago, a little over 4 years.

Mr. LIEBELER. I want to ask you a few questions about Mr. Skotnicki and some of the people that he knew.

Do you still have any friends that were your friends when you were married to Mr. Skotnicki?

Mrs. FORD. Yes; I would think, some neighbors, I would say that we would be still--we don't see together, acquaintances together with those friends but I am sure they are still friendly. He is still friendly with the same people as I am. I would say Campbells down on 6468 Lane, the old house still stands there I would think he would still be friendly with them, and I know them very well.

Mr. LIEBELER. You don't continue to see Mr. Skotnicki in any way, do you?

Mrs. FORD. No, no; I have no reason for it.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether or not Mr. Skotnicki has a friend by the name of John M. Grizzaffi? That is spelled G-r-i-z-z-a-f-f-i.

Mrs. FORD. I think that he is friends, yes. It is a neighbor across the street. He was friendly with that man.

Mr. LIEBELER. Would you tell us just a little bit about Mr. Grizzaffi, if you know about him?

Mrs. FORD. I think he is in grocery business, that is what I know about him, and I believe, I wouldn't say he is busy in local politics but he is always talking about people he knows around town that are in politics, and that is about all I know. I was never very friendly with his wife and so I just know a little bit about him.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether Mr. Grizzaffi is a friend of Jack Ruby's?

Mrs. FORD. That I don't know. I was told by my son that Mr. Grizzaffi knew Ruby.

Mr. LIEBELER. Your son told you that?

Mrs. FORD. My young son.

Mr. LIEBELER. What is you son's name?

Mrs. FORD. My son's name is Gary.

Mr. LIEBELER. How old is he?

Mrs. FORD. Twelve.

Mr. LIEBELER. He is a son by Mr. Skotnicki?

Mrs. FORD. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Is he living with you and Mr. Ford?

Mrs. FORD. He lives with me.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether Mr. Skotnicki knew the Oswalds?

Mrs. FORD. No; I don't think he did.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether he knew anything about the Oswalds?

Mrs. FORD. Unless something was told by my son or something, by children. I don't think he knew them personally.

Mr. LIEBELER. You yourself didn't have any conversations with Mr. Skotnicki about the Oswalds?

Mrs. FORD. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. I want to go through a list of names which I will go through fairly quickly and ask you if you recognize any of these names or if you know any of the people.

Do you know a gentleman by the name of George Senator?

Mrs. FORD. No; I don't.

Mr. LIEBELER. How about a man by the name of Ralph Paul?

Mrs. FORD. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Andrew Armstrong?

Mrs. FORD. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know a lady by the name of Karen Bennett?

Mrs. FORD. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Bruce Carlin?

Mrs. FORD. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know a man by the name of Roy William Pike?

Mrs. FORD. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. How about Larry Crafard?

Mrs. FORD. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. You yourself don't know Jack Ruby in any way?

Mrs. FORD. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Does Mr. Ford know Mr. Ruby?

Mrs. FORD. No; I don't thing so; no.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know a lady by the name of Earlene Roberts?

Mrs. FORD. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Mary Bledsoe?

Mrs. FORD. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Bertha Cheek?

Mrs. FORD. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. John Carter.

Mrs. FORD. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. How about Mr. and Mrs. A. C. Johnson?

Mrs. FORD. A. C. Johnson, I don't think so.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know of any connection between Mr. Oswald, Lee Harvey Oswald and Jack Ruby?

Mrs. FORD. No; I don't know. I don't know that they knew each other.

Mr. LIEBELER. Would you tell the Commission, Mrs. Ford, how you first met the Oswalds?

Mrs. FORD. We were invited there after lunch, the Oswalds had a luncheon at Anna Meller's house, and we were invited after luncheon to meet them, and that was our first contact with them.

Mr. LIEBELER. Can you tell me when that was, approximately?

Mrs. FORD. I would say it was approximately at the end of August of 1962.

Mr. LIEBELER. Will you tell us who was at the luncheon?

Mrs. FORD. I believe there was Mr. and Mrs. Ted Meller and George Bouhe and the Oswalds and ourselves, I believe that is all I remember.

Mr. LIEBELER. Who first told you about the Oswalds? Did you hear of them the first time that you came to that luncheon or had you heard of them before?

Mrs. FORD. I had heard of them maybe a couple of weeks before from Mr. George Bouhe, I believe, who had told us that there was a young Russian girl came to Fort Worth and the man was out of a job, and that was the reason for us to try to help them. And she had a baby and so forth.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Mr. Bouhe tell you anything else about the Oswalds?

Mrs. FORD. No; he was just telling that the man was having a very hard time finding a job because the last job he had was in Minsk or so.

Mr. LIEBELER. He told you that Mr. Oswald had been in Russia?

Mrs. FORD. Yes; he did. He told us about that he was in Russia and decided to come back and he brought a Russian wife with him who didn't speak English and had a tiny baby and both were having a very hard time at the moment.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Mr. Bouhe tell you anything about the circumstances under which Mr. Oswald went to Russia?

Mrs. FORD. No; nothing like that was discussed.

Mr. LIEBELER. At the luncheon at which you and your husband, and Mr. and Mrs. Meller----

Mrs. FORD. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. And Mr. Bouhe were present----

Mrs. FORD. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. What was said at that time?

Mrs. FORD. At the time we were present, actually, I was only interested in economic conditions of Russia at the moment, for me to compare them with the time I was living there, and they were showing some pictures of Minsk and Leningrad and some of the pictures of some of the friends of Marina's friends, girl friends.

(At this point, Representative Ford entered the hearing room.)

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any conversations with the Oswalds at that time about the kind of apartment that they had when they lived in Minsk?

Mrs. FORD. I don't remember any particulars about that apartment, but they were talking about, I think, about the apartment, I don't know exactly what was said about it. I know it was, I think I remember they were saying they lived in one room and sharing a kitchen.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did they tell you how they came to meet each other in Russia and how they came to be married?

Mrs. FORD. It wasn't said at that particular time, but I remember Marina was telling me afterwards how they came to meet each other, and I believe it was at a dance some place at the Hall of Culture or some place they would have in Russia dances, and she met him there.

Mr. LIEBELER. Of the people that were at this luncheon, aside from yourself, how many of them were originally born in Russia?

Mrs. FORD. Mr. Bouhe and I believe and Mr. Meller would be--I believe Ted Meller was born in Poland.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did it appear to you at the time of that luncheon that Lee Harvey Oswald lived like other Russian people lived or did it appear that he might have received preferential treatment in some way.

Did you gather an impression about that during the course of your conversation?

Mrs. FORD. Yes; I believe he was still in something of a hardship in living in Russia, that was the reason for his leaving Russia. That it was rather difficult to make his ends meet as we say, because he was comparing it with his living standards of Marina's uncle who was a colonel or a major, I don't know, I wouldn't say because I don't know. He was saying that they had a very lovely apartment consisting of maybe four or five rooms and he was comparing it with his apartment, and such.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he compare his apartment with the apartment of other workers who worked in Minsk?

Mrs. FORD. No; I don't think so. He was just comparing, I believe with her uncle.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you how much money he was paid at his job?

Mrs. FORD. I don't remember, he was saying or Marina was saying something, 80 rubles, I don't know which one gave me that.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he indicate whether that was about the same that other people were paid or more?

Mrs. FORD. Yes; about the same as the workers were paid.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, is there anything else you can remember about that luncheon, the conversation at that luncheon which you would like to tell the Commission about other than what we have already touched on?

Mrs. FORD. Well, I don't know what was important. I know he was saying--my husband made a sort of a joking statement that he had a child born in Russia, and he said, well, if it wasn't for the Americans she wouldn't be born over there because he had to wait so long to get a visa, I don't know what else he said.