Chapter XVIII: Part 18

Mr. BALL. Now, you said that some of the bag might have been beyond his hands, did you say?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; I said it could have, now I am not saying it was.

Mr. BALL. In other words, it could have been longer than his hands?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

Mr. BALL. It has been suggested that you take this bag, which is the colored bag, Commission Exhibit No. 142, and put it under your arm just as a sample, or just to show about how he carried the bag.

Mr. FRAZIER. Okay.

Mr. BALL. Put it under your armpit.

Mr. FRAZIER. Like that, normally your hand would come down like that and you would say, you would have an item, like you have seen people carry items like they would be walking along and your arm would come down like that, just like----

Mr. BALL. But are you sure that his hand was at the end of the package or at the side of the package?

Mr. FRAZIER. Like I said, I remember I didn't look at the package very much, paying much attention, but when I did look at it he did have his hands on the package like that.

Mr. BALL. But you said a moment ago you weren't sure whether the package was longer or shorter.

Mr. FRAZIER. And his hands because I couldn't see that about the package.

Mr. BALL. By that, do you mean that you don't know whether the package extended beyond his hands?

Mr. FRAZIER. This way?

Mr. BALL. No; lengthwise, toward his feet.

Mr. FRAZIER. No; now I don't mean that.

Mr. BALL. What do you mean?

Mr. FRAZIER. What I was talking about, I said I didn't know where it extended. It could have or couldn't have, out this way, widthwise not lengthwise.

Mr. BALL. In other words, you say it could have been wider than your original estimate?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

Mr. BALL. But you don't think it was longer than his hands?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

Mr. BALL. How tall are you?

Mr. FRAZIER. I am 6-foot, a little bit over 6-foot.

Mr. BALL. Do you know what your arm length is?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I don't.

Mr. BALL. We can probably measure it before you leave.

Did you ever see Lee taking home anything with him from the Texas Book Depository Building?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; never did.

Mr. BALL. Did you ever see him taking a package home with him?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. When was the last time you can remember you saw Lee?

Mr. FRAZIER. You mean on the 22d?

Mr. BALL. On the 22d, that day.

Mr. FRAZIER. Somewhere between it was after 10 and somewhere before noon, because I remember I was walking down to the first floor that day, that was the only time I went up on the elevator was, like I say, for a few minutes and, I put that box of books up and put it down, and I was on the first floor putting up books all day and I seen him back and forth and he would be walking and getting books and put on the order.

Mr. BALL. That was the last time you saw him all day?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

Mr. BALL. You didn't talk to him again?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I didn't.

Mr. BALL. Did you wear a coat or jacket to work that morning?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. BALL. It was chilly, was it?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; it was.

Mr. BALL. When you stood out on the front looking at the parade, where was Shelley standing and where was Lovelady standing with reference to you?

Mr. FRAZIER. Well, see, I was standing, like I say, one step down from the top, and Mr. Shelley was standing, you know, back from the top step and over toward the side of the wall there. See, he was standing right over there, and then Billy was a couple of steps down from me over toward more the wall also.

Mr. BALL. Usually when Lee walked in the Building in the morning, when you came to work with him where did he go, do you know?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir. He just walked in, say, like inside the Building, and like I say I always went and put my lunch up and hang my jacket or coat up, whichever I wore, and he was usually around there on the first floor there after some of them put their lunch in the refrigerator, so far as that I never paid too much attention to what he usually did.

Mr. BALL. You usually walked in together?

Mr. FRAZIER. That is right, sir.

Mr. BALL. And you separated after you got in there?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes; after we got into the interior I just went and put my lunch up.

Mr. BALL. Did you notice where Lee kept his lunch?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I didn't.

Mr. BALL. Did you ever see him come into the Building on other days than the days that he rode with you?

Mr. FRAZIER. You mean did I ever see him come in the Building when he rode with me?

Mr. BALL. Yes.

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; because when he rode with me we always walked together.

Mr. BALL. No; other than when he rode with you.

Mr. FRAZIER. Oh, other than when he rode with me. No, sir; I didn't.

The CHAIRMAN. Did he have any particular associates around there that you knew of?

Mr. FRAZIER. Not that I knew of. I say he didn't mingle with other guys like the rest of us. The rest of us usually joked back and forth with practically everybody who worked around there. But he usually kept to himself, that was the only time he talked to anybody was when he wanted to know something about a book or something like that.

Mr. BALL. We have got a picture taken the day of the parade and it shows the President's car going by.

Now, take a look at that picture. Can you see your picture any place there?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I don't, because I was back up in this more or less black area here.

Mr. BALL. I see.

Mr. FRAZIER. Because Billy, like I say, is two or three steps down in front of me.

Mr. BALL. Do you recognize this fellow?

Mr. FRAZIER. That is Billy, that is Billy Lovelady.

Mr. BALL. Billy?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

Mr. BALL. Let's take a marker and make an arrow down that way. That mark is Billy Lovelady?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

Mr. BALL. That is where you told us you were standing a moment ago.

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

Mr. BALL. In front of you to the right over to the wall?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Is this a Commission exhibit?

We will make this a Commission Exhibit No. 369.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 369 for identification.)

Mr. BALL. That is written in. The arrow marks Billy Lovelady on Commission's Exhibit No. 369.

The CHAIRMAN. Do you have any lockers there in which you put your clothes, and so forth?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; we don't.

(At this point, Representative Ford withdrew from the hearing room.)

Mr. FRAZIER. Some boys hang their jackets up in there in that little domino room where they were going to play dominoes. But here lately, I have been wondering, you know, most of us wear our jackets, what we have on, because if you are going out there on a dock in the cold air we usually keep them on.

The CHAIRMAN. I see.

Mr. BALL. On Thursday afternoon when you went home, drove on home, did he carry any package with him?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; he didn't.

Mr. BALL. Did he have a jacket or coat on him?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What kind of a jacket or coat did he have?

Mr. FRAZIER. That, you know, like I say gray jacket.

Mr. BALL. That same gray jacket?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. Now, I can be frank with you, I had seen him wear that jacket several times, because it is cool type like when you keep a jacket on all day, if you are working on outside or something like that, you wouldn't go outside with just a plain shirt on.

Mr. BALL. I have no further questions.

The CHAIRMAN. Senator, have you any questions you would like to ask?

I think that is all.

Does anybody else have any questions to ask? Do you have any questions?

Mr. BALL. Mr. Frazier, we have here this Exhibit No. 364 which is a sack and in that we have put a dismantled gun. Don't pay any attention to that. Will you stand up here and put this under your arm and then take hold of it at the side?

Now, is that anywhere near similar to the way that Oswald carried the package?

Mr. FRAZIER. Well, you know, like I said now, I said I didn't pay much attention----

Mr. BALL. Turn around.

Mr. FRAZIER. I didn't pay much attention, but when I did, I say, he had this part down here, like the bottom would be short he had cupped in his hand like that and, say, like walking from the back if you had a big arm jacket there you wouldn't tell much from a package back there, the physical features. If you could see it from the front like when you walk and meet somebody you could tell about the package, but walking from behind you couldn't tell much about the package whatsoever about the width. But he didn't carry it from the back. If this package were shorter he would have it cupped in his hands.

The CHAIRMAN. Could he have had the top of it behind his shoulder, or are you sure it was cupped under his shoulder there?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes; because the way it looked, you know, like I say, he had it cupped in his hand.

The CHAIRMAN. I beg your pardon?

Mr. FRAZIER. I said from where I noticed he had it cupped in his hands. And I don't see how you could have it anywhere other than under your armpit because if you had it cupped in your hand it would stick over it.

Mr. BALL. Could he have carried it this way?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir. Never in front here. Like that. Now, that is what I was talking to you about. No, I say he couldn't because if he had you would have seen the package sticking up like that.

From what I seen walking behind he had it under his arm and you couldn't tell that he had a package from the back.

Mr. BALL. When you cupped the bottom of your package in the hands, will you stand up, again, please, and the upper part of the package is not under the armpit, the top of the package extends almost up to the level of your ear.

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

Mr. BALL. Or your eye level, and when you put the package under your armpit, the upper part of the package, and take a hold of the side of it with your right hand, it extends on approximately about 8 inches, about the span of my hand, more than 8 inches, 8, 10 inches.

Mr. FRAZIER. If you were using a yardstick or one of these little----

Mr. BALL. I was using my hand.

Mr. FRAZIER. I know you were, but there are some different means to measure it. I will say it varies, if you use a yardstick. You can go and measure something with a tape measure, with a yardstick and come up with a different measurement altogether, maybe a quarter of an inch shorter or longer.

Mr. BALL. I was asked, there was some uncertainty in your testimony as to the direction from which you heard the shots fired. Let's see if we can illustrate it.

You heard the shots fired and you expressed an opinion that it came from a certain direction. I would like to clear that up, if I could, on this map.

Here is the Texas School Book Depository Building, and you were standing right here, you said, weren't you? Can you tell me?

Mr. FRAZIER. You know the entrance there is not quite at that corner.

Mr. BALL. That close.

Now, you say you heard these three sounds which you later thought were probably shots, you thought it came from a certain direction.

Can you tell us from what direction as illustrated on the map?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right. Now I say, you know where it is the straight curve that goes under the underpass.

Mr. BALL. That is the parkway?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right. I say it runs over this parkway, you don't have it on here--anyway, I say these railroad tracks there is a series of them that come up over this, up over this overpass there, and from where I was standing, I say, it is my true opinion, that is what I thought, it sounded like it came from over there, in the railroad tracks.

Mr. BALL. That would be east and south?

Mr. FRAZIER. No; that would be west and south.

Mr. BALL. West and south?

Mr. FRAZIER. No; it would be north.

Mr. BALL. No; it wouldn't be north.

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes; it wouldn't be south because that is in that direction.

Mr. BALL. This is north, and you say it, I believe, it came from north?

Mr. FRAZIER. It would be more or less west and north were these tracks from this overpass.

Mr. BALL. Your direction was west and north as the source of the sound.

Well, take a look at the map that does show the overpass and you will put a mark on that.

Did any other people who were standing there with you express any opinion as to where they thought the sounds came from?

Mr. FRAZIER. Well, I say, after we found out it was shots I see some of the other people around there said when they were staying there, said that is what it was, downward right back from us, like where we were standing. If we had been standing somewhere else you might have gotten a different opinion, but from where we were standing on the steps there it sounded like back down to the right.

Mr. BALL. Here is a Commission Exhibit, No. 347. It is an aerial photograph, and it shows the Texas School Book Depository Building.

Mr. FRAZIER. Here is the Depository Building here.

Mr. BALL. That is right, sir. Here is the parkway.

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

Mr. BALL. Here are the overpasses here.

Can you show us on that map where you think--will that map--can you on that map indicate the general direction from which you thought the sounds came from?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; because we were standing right here.

Mr. BALL. Don't mark it up right now.

Mr. FRAZIER. Right. But what I am trying to say is we were standing down there, and back over here, this over here is more or less a knoll, and you can look over there and see this. You see this furthest left line that curved around here is the ones we take to come out on Stemmons Expressway, and this is a high knoll up here which runs where the tracks are, from standing there it sounded like it came from this general area over here.

Mr. BALL. Just mark on that if you can, if you can mark a source.

Mr. FRAZIER. This is where it is.

Mr. BALL. Mark a circle.

Mr. FRAZIER. I would say just like over in here.

Mr. BALL. Let's make it a little heavier. In that general direction?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. That was just part of the knoll.

Mr. BALL. The circle marked on No. 347, we will identify it with an "F," the circle marked "F" represents the direction, general direction, of a source of sound as you--as occurred to you as you stood on the front steps of the Texas Book Depository Building, is that right?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

Mr. BALL. I have no further questions.

The CHAIRMAN. Anything from you, Senator?

Well, that will be all. Thank you very much for coming and testifying before the Commission.

Mr. FRAZIER. Thank you, Mr. Warren.

The CHAIRMAN. All right, bring in the next witness.

The Commission will be in order.

Mrs. Randle, I will just read you a brief statement of the purpose of our meeting today.

The purpose of today's hearing is to hear the testimony of Buell Wesley Frazier and Linnie Mae Randle. The Commission has been advised that these two witnesses have stated that they saw Lee Harvey Oswald on the morning of November 22, 1963. The Commission proposes to ask these witnesses questions concerning their knowledge of the assassination of President Kennedy.

You have a copy of that, do you not?

Very well, Mr. Ball will conduct the examination.

Will you rise and be sworn, please?

Do you solemnly swear the testimony you give before this Commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mrs. RANDLE. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Please be seated.

Mr. Ball?

TESTIMONY OF LINNIE MAE RANDLE

Mr. BALL. Mrs. Randle, where do you live?

Mrs. RANDLE. 2438 Westfield, Irving, Tex.

Mr. BALL. And you live there with your husband and three daughters, do you?

Mrs. RANDLE. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And your brother?

Mrs. RANDLE. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Wesley?

Mrs. RANDLE. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. How long has Wesley been living there?

Mrs. RANDLE. Since September, somewhere around the first, I am not sure just the date.

Mr. BALL. Do you know Mrs. Ruth Paine?

Mrs. RANDLE. She is a neighbor that lives up the street from me.

Mr. BALL. When did you first meet Mrs. Paine?

Mrs. RANDLE. Well, for a period, I am not sure of this, it is quite 2 years, I lived across the street from her. I didn't visit with her, but I visited with her neighbor who lives next door.

Mr. BALL. What is her name?

Mrs. RANDLE. Mrs. Dorothy Roberts.

Mr. BALL. That is on Fifth Street in Irving, Tex.?

Mrs. RANDLE. That is right; yes.

Mr. BALL. That was before you moved down the street to the corner of Westfield and Fifth Street?

Mrs. RANDLE. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. You had never visited in Mrs. Paine's home?

Mrs. RANDLE. I was in her home on one occasion that I remember at a birthday party for one of her children and she invited mine.

Mr. BALL. How long ago?

Mrs. RANDLE. It has been about a year ago.

Mr. BALL. That is the only time you have visited Mrs. Paine?

Mrs. RANDLE. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did you ever meet Marina Oswald?

Mrs. RANDLE. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. BALL. When did you meet her?

Mrs. RANDLE. The first time I met her was over at this Mrs. Roberts. I had gone up there to see Mrs. Roberts and her, Mrs. Oswald and Mrs. Paine was over there drinking coffee, that was the first time I met her.

Mr. BALL. When was that?

Mrs. RANDLE. Well, I believe it was the first week in October.

Mr. BALL. That is the first time you had ever met Mrs. Oswald?

Mrs. RANDLE. Officially met her. I had seen her out in the yard and through the neighbor I knew who she was. I hadn't met her until that time.

Mr. BALL. Did you ever see her again to talk to her, Marina Oswald?

Mrs. RANDLE. Well, she couldn't speak English, "How are you" and things like that was about all she could say and I did visit with Mrs. Roberts quite often and so she would be out in the yard and she would speak.

Mr. BALL. In whose yards, Mrs. Roberts' yard or Mrs. Paine's?

Mrs. RANDLE. Mrs. Paine's. She played with her children, and kept the yard and things like that.

Mr. BALL. But on this one occasion she was in the house, Mrs. Roberts' house?

Mrs. RANDLE. Mrs. Roberts.

Mr. BALL. With Mrs. Paine, Mrs. Roberts and yourself?

Mrs. RANDLE. That is right.

Mr. BALL. Was there some conversation at that time about her husband Lee Oswald?

Mrs. RANDLE. Well, they had--it was just general knowledge in the neighborhood that he didn't have a job and she was expecting a baby. Of course, I didn't know where he was or anything. And of course you know just being neighborly and everything, we felt sorry for Marina because her baby was due right away as we understood it, and he didn't have any work, so they said, so it was just----

Mr. BALL. Mrs. Paine told you that Lee didn't have any work?

Mrs. RANDLE. Well, I suppose. It was just in conversation.

Mr. BALL. Marina didn't take part in the conversation?

Mrs. RANDLE. No. She couldn't. So far as I know, she couldn't speak.

Mr. BALL. You and Mrs. Roberts and Mrs. Paine talked about it?

Mrs. RANDLE. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Was there anything said then about the Texas School Book Depository as a place he might get a job?

Mrs. RANDLE. Well, we didn't say that he might get a job, because I didn't know there was a job open. The reason that we were being helpful, Wesley had just looked for a job, and I had helped him to try to find one. We listed several places that he might go to look for work. When you live in a place you know some places that someone with, you know, not very much of an education can find work.

So, it was among one of the places that we mentioned. We mentioned several others, and Mrs. Paine said that well, he couldn't apply for any of the jobs that would require driving because he couldn't drive, and it was just in conversation that you might talk just any day and not think a thing on earth about it. In fact, I didn't even know that he had even tried any place that we mentioned.

Mr. BALL. What were some of the other places mentioned?

Mrs. RANDLE. Well, I remember two of them. Mrs. Roberts entered into the conversation and, of course, she is more familiar with the place than I am. It was Manor Bakeries which was a home delivery service.

Then there was this Texas Gypsum which makes sheet rock and things like that, and we mentioned because Wesley had tried those places that I mentioned those.

Mr. BALL. And then you also mentioned the Texas Book Depository?

Mrs. RANDLE. Well, I didn't know there was a job opening over there.

Mr. BALL. But did you mention it?

Mrs. RANDLE. But we said he might try over there. There might be work over there because it was the busy season but I didn't have any previous knowledge that there was any job opening.

Mr. BALL. Did you later learn that Lee had applied for a job?

Mrs. RANDLE. She told me, Mrs. Paine told me, later that he had applied for the job, and had gotten the job and she thanked us for naming the places and things like that.

Mr. BALL. Did you tell your brother that a fellow named Lee Oswald was going to work for them?

Mrs. RANDLE. No, sir; I didn't even know his name. She said Lee so I just assumed that was his last name and I just merely mentioned to Wesley that he had got the job or a job over there.

Mr. BALL. That Lee had the job?

Mrs. RANDLE. That Mrs. Paine said that, I had told Wesley that he might--that she said he was going to call over there.

In fact, Mrs. Paine asked me if I would call and see if there was a job available and I told her, no, that I didn't know anybody over there, and if she wanted to call over the place she would have to do it because I didn't know if there was any job openings over there.

Mr. BALL. You told Wesley, though, that you had--Mrs. Paine had told you that Lee had applied for a job and gotten a job there?

Mrs. RANDLE. Sir, I don't remember if I mentioned it to him or not.

Mr. BALL. When you said a moment ago that you had mentioned something to Wesley?

Mrs. RANDLE. I might have had. But I can't say for sure I did because at the time it was unimportant to me. It didn't really matter.

Mr. BALL. In other words, you are not sure whether you did or didn't?

Mrs. RANDLE. That is right. I might have, I don't know maybe for sure if I did.

Mr. BALL. Did Lee tell you at sometime that he had started to drive?

Mrs. RANDLE. I never talked to Lee.

Mr. BALL. Did Wesley tell you that he was driving Lee home weekends or driving him to Irving weekends?

Mrs. RANDLE. Wesley had told me that he asked to ride out on weekends.

Mr. BALL. Did you ever see him arrive with Lee?

Mrs. RANDLE. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Do you recall on a Thursday night, November 21 that you saw Lee get out of Wesley's car?

Mrs. RANDLE. That is right.

Mr. BALL. About what time of night was it?

Mrs. RANDLE. About 5:20, I believe, 5:15 or 5:25 something like that.

Mr. BALL. Where were you when you saw him?

Mrs. RANDLE. I was on my way to the grocery store.

Mr. BALL. Did you talk to Wesley about the fact that he had brought Lee home on this night?

Mrs. RANDLE. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did you think it was unusual that he had come home that night?

Mrs. RANDLE. Well, I knew that he had--Friday is the only time he had ever ridden with him before which was a couple of times, I don't think he rode with him over three times, I am not sure but I never did know of him arriving, you know, except on Friday.

Mr. BALL. Well, did you mention to Wesley that night or did you ask Wesley that night how Lee happened to come home on Thursday?

Mrs. RANDLE. I might have asked him.

Mr. BALL. Do you remember anything about curtain rods?

Mrs. RANDLE. Yes.

Mr. BALL. What do you remember about that?

Mrs. RANDLE. He had told Wesley----

Mr. BALL. Tell me what Wesley told you.

Mrs. RANDLE. What Wesley told me. That Lee had rode home with him to get some curtain rods from Mrs. Paine to fix up his apartment.

Mr. BALL. When did Wesley tell you that?

Mrs. RANDLE. Well, that afternoon I suppose I would have had to ask him, he wouldn't have just told me.

Mr. BALL. You mean that night?

Mrs. RANDLE. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. After he came home?

Mrs. RANDLE. I was on my way to the store. So I probably asked him when I got back what he was doing riding home with him on Thursday afternoon.

Mr. BALL. You think that was the time that Wesley told you----

Mrs. RANDLE. Yes, sir; after I got back home.

Mr. BALL. That Lee had come home to get some curtain rods?

Mrs. RANDLE. Yes, I am sure he told me that.

Mr. BALL. The next morning did you get breakfast for Wesley, you, and your mother?

Mrs. RANDLE. Yes; mother and my children.

Mr. BALL. And you were packing his lunch, too, were you?

Mrs. RANDLE. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did you see Lee?

Mrs. RANDLE. Yes, I did.

Mr. BALL. Where did you see him?

Mrs. RANDLE. I saw him as he crossed the street and come across my driveway to where Wesley had his car parked by the carport.

Mr. BALL. What street did he cross to go over?

Mrs. RANDLE. He crossed Westbrook.

Mr. BALL. And you saw him walking along, did you?

Mrs. RANDLE. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Was he carrying any package?

Mrs. RANDLE. Yes; he was.

Mr. BALL. What was he carrying?

Mrs. RANDLE. He was carrying a package in a sort of a heavy brown bag, heavier than a grocery bag it looked to me. It was about, if I might measure, about this long, I suppose, and he carried it in his right hand, had the top sort of folded down and had a grip like this, and the bottom, he carried it this way, you know, and it almost touched the ground as he carried it.

Mr. BALL. Let me see. He carried it in his right hand, did he?

Mrs. RANDLE. That is right.

Mr. BALL. And where was his hand gripping the middle of the package?

Mrs. RANDLE. No, sir; the top with just a little bit sticking up. You know just like you grab something like that.

Mr. BALL. And he was grabbing it with his right hand at the top of the package and the package almost touched the ground?

Mrs. RANDLE. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. He walked over to your house, did he?

Mrs. RANDLE. Well, I saw him as he started crossing the street. Where he come from then I couldn't say.

Mr. BALL. You don't know where he went from that?

Mrs. RANDLE. Where he went?

Mr. BALL. Did you see him go to the car?

Mrs. RANDLE. Yes.

Mr. BALL. What did he do?

Mrs. RANDLE. He opened the right back door and I just saw that he was laying the package down so I closed the door. I didn't recognize him as he walked across my carport and I at that moment I wondered who was fixing to come to my back door so I opened the door slightly and saw that it--I assumed he was getting in the car but he didn't, so he come back and stood on the driveway.

Mr. BALL. He put the package in the car.

Mrs. RANDLE. Yes, sir; I don't know if he put it on the seat or on the floor but I just know he put it in the back.

Mr. BALL. We have got a package here which is marked Commission Exhibit No. 364. You have seen this before, I guess, haven't you, I think the FBI showed it to you?

Mrs. RANDLE. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Was the color of that package in any way similar to the color of this package which is 364?

Mrs. RANDLE. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Similar kind of paper, wasn't it?

Mrs. RANDLE. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Now, was the length of it any similar, anywhere near similar?

Mrs. RANDLE. Well, it wasn't that long, I mean it was folded down at the top as I told you. It definitely wasn't that long.

Mr. BALL. How about the width?

Mrs. RANDLE. The width is about right.

Mr. BALL. The width is about right.

Can you stand up here and show us how he was carrying it. Using this package as an example only?

Mrs. RANDLE. What he had in there, it looked too long.

Mr. BALL. This looks too long?

Mrs. RANDLE. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. About how long would you think the package would be, just measure it right on there.

Mrs. RANDLE. I would say about like this.

Mr. BALL. You mean from here to here?

Mrs. RANDLE. Yes, sir; with that folded down with this much for him to grip in his hand.

Mr. BALL. This package is about the span of my hand, say 8 inches, is that right? He would have about this much to grip?

Mrs. RANDLE. What I remember seeing is about this long, sir, as I told you it was folded down so it could have been this long.

Mr. BALL. I see. You figure about 2 feet long, is that right?

Mrs. RANDLE. A little bit more.

Mr. BALL. A little more than 2 feet.

There is another package here. You remember this was shown you. It is a discolored bag, which is Exhibit No. 142, and remember you were asked by the Federal Bureau of Investigation agents if this looked like the package; do you remember?

Mrs. RANDLE. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Now, first of all with color, you told them the bag was not the color?

Mrs. RANDLE. Yes.

Mr. BALL. But they showed you a part of the bag that had not been discolored, didn't they?

Mrs. RANDLE. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Looking at this part of the bag which has not been discolored does that appear similar to the color of the bag you saw Lee carrying that morning?

Mrs. RANDLE. Yes; it is a heavy type of wrapping paper.

Mr. BALL. Now, with reference to the width of this bag, does that look about the width of the bag that he was carrying?

Mrs. RANDLE. I would say so; yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What about length?

Mrs. RANDLE. You mean the entire bag?

Mr. BALL. Yes.

Mrs. RANDLE. There again you have the problem of all this down here. It was folded down, of course, if you would take it from the bottom----

Mr. BALL. Fold it to about the size that you think it might be.

Mrs. RANDLE. This is the bottom here, right. This is the bottom, this part down here.

Mr. BALL. I believe so, but I am not sure. But let's say it is.

Mrs. RANDLE. And this goes this way, right? Do you want me to hold it?

Mr. BALL. Yes.

Mrs. RANDLE. About this.

Mr. BALL. Is that about right? That is 28-1/2 inches.

Mrs. RANDLE. I measured 27 last time.

Mr. BALL. You measured 27 once before?

Mrs. RANDLE. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. How was Lee dressed that morning?

Mrs. RANDLE. He had on a white T-shirt, I just saw him from the waist up, I didn't pay any attention to his pants or anything, when he was going with the package. I was more interested in that. But he had on a white T-shirt and I remember some sort of brown or tan shirt and he had a gray jacket, I believe.

Mr. BALL. A gray jacket. I will show you some clothing here. First, I will show you a gray jacket. Does this look anything like the jacket he had on?

Mrs. RANDLE. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. That morning?

Mrs. RANDLE. Similar to that. I didn't pay an awful lot of attention to it.

Mr. BALL. Was it similar in color?

Mrs. RANDLE. Yes, sir; I think so. It had big sleeves.

Mr. BALL. Take a look at these sleeves. Was it similar in color?

Mrs. RANDLE. I believe so.

Mr. BALL. What is the Commission Exhibit on this jacket?

Mrs. RANDLE. It was gray, I am not sure of the shade.

Mr. BALL. 163.

I will show you another shirt which is Commission No. 150.

Does this look anything like the shirt he had on?

Mrs. RANDLE. Well now, I don't remember it being that shade of brown. It could have been but I was looking through the screen and out the window but I don't remember it being exactly that. I thought it was a solid color.

Mr. BALL. Here is another jacket which is a gray jacket, does this look anything like the jacket he had on?

Mrs. RANDLE. No, sir; I remember its being gray.

Mr. BALL. Well, this one is gray but of these two the jacket I last showed you is Commission Exhibit No. 162, and this blue gray is 163, now if you had to choose between these two?

Mrs. RANDLE. I would choose the dark one.

Mr. BALL. You would choose the dark one?

Mrs. RANDLE. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Which is 163, as being more similar to the jacket he had?

Mrs. RANDLE. Yes, sir; that I remember. But I, you know, didn't pay an awful lot of attention to his jacket. I remember his T-shirt and the shirt more so than I do the jacket.

Mr. BALL. The witness just stated that 163 which is the gray-blue is similar to the jacket he had on. 162, the light gray jacket was not.

Mrs. RANDLE. Yes.

Mr. BALL. I have no further questions.

The CHAIRMAN.. Senator, have you any questions?

Senator COOPER. No questions.

The CHAIRMAN. Have you any questions, Mr. Powell?

Mr. POWELL. No, sir.

Senator COOPER. I think I do have one.

Prior to the assassination of President Kennedy, did any FBI agents or police officer ever visit your house?

Mrs. RANDLE. No, sir.

Senator COOPER. And said anything to you about Lee Oswald?

Mrs. RANDLE. No, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Could I ask, Mr. Chief Justice, along the line Senator Cooper touched on--whether there had been any conversation in the neighborhood prior to the assassination of any FBI agents or police officers having visited in the neighborhood?

Mrs. RANDLE. No, sir.

Mr. JENNER. You heard nothing along rumors of that kind?

Mrs. RANDLE. No. Later, after all this was over, I had heard that they had been to Mrs. Paine's residence.

Mr. JENNER. But there was no excitement in the neighborhood up to that point?

Mrs. RANDLE. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. I have one question, Mr. Chief Justice.

You used an expression there, that the bag appeared heavy.

Mrs. RANDLE. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. You meant that there was some weight appeared to be----

Mrs. RANDLE. To the bottom.

Mr. BALL. To the bottom?

Mrs. RANDLE. Yes. It tapered like this as he hugged it in his hand. It was more bulky toward the bottom than it was this way.

Mr. BELIN. Toward the top? More bulky toward the bottom than toward the top?

Mrs. RANDLE. That is right.

Mr. BALL. I have no further questions.

Senator COOPER. On that point--did you see Lee Oswald place the package in the automobile?

Mrs. RANDLE. In the automobile. I do not know if he put it on the seat or on the floor.

Senator COOPER. I mean did you see him throw open the door?

Mrs. RANDLE. Yes, sir.

Senator COOPER. When he placed the package in there do you remember whether he used one hand or two?

Mrs. RANDLE. No; because I only opened the door briefly and what made me establish the door on Wesley's car, it is an old car and that door, the window is broken and everything and it is hard to close, so that cinched in my mind which door it was, too. But it was only briefly that I looked.

Mr. JENNER. Mr. Chief Justice, could I ask--how far away were you? You were at the kitchen door and the automobile was in the driveway, what was the distance between yourself and Mr. Oswald?

Mrs. RANDLE. Sir, I don't know. The carport will take care of two cars, and then Wesley's car was on the other side of the carport so that would be three car lengths plus inbetween space.

Mr. JENNER. Car widths?

Mrs. RANDLE. Car widths, excuse me.

Mr. JENNER. Was it a light day?

Mrs. RANDLE. It was sort of cloudy, but there wasn't any--I mean it wasn't dark or anything like that.

Mr. JENNER. Would you be good enough as you can recall--can you recall what the fabric of the jacket was that Mr. Oswald had on this morning, was it twill or wool or gabardine? Cotton?

Mrs. RANDLE. Probably cotton or gabardine, something like that that would repel water probably, and that is just my own opinion.

Mr. JENNER. That is your present recollection?

Mrs. RANDLE. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Thank you.

The CHAIRMAN. Mrs. Randle, thank you very much for coming, you may be excused.

TESTIMONY OF CORTLANDT CUNNINGHAM

Mr. BALL. Will you state your name for the record?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Cortlandt Cunningham.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Cunningham, will you raise your right hand and be sworn, please?

Do you solemnly swear the testimony given before this Commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. I do.

Mr. BALL. Mr. Cunningham, be seated there.

What is your business?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. I am a special agent of the FBI.

Mr. BALL. What is your specialty with the FBI?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. I am assigned to the FBI laboratory in the Firearms Identification Unit.

Mr. BALL. There is a rifle here that has been identified as Commission Exhibit No. 139, it has been in your custody, hasn't it?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. It has.

Mr. BALL. You brought it over here this morning?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. I did.

Mr. BALL. And I requested you disassemble it?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. I did.

Mr. BALL. Let's take it out of the sack and put it before the Commission.

Do you need any special tools to assemble this rifle?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. I notice you have a screwdriver there. Can you assemble it without the use of a screwdriver?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What can you use?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Any object that would fit the slots on the five screws that retain the stock to the action.

Mr. BALL. Could you do it with a 10-cent piece?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Will you do that--about how long will it take you?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. I know I can do it, but I have never been timed as far as using a dime. I have been timed using a screwdriver, which required a little over 2 minutes.

Mr. BALL. 2 minutes with a screwdriver.

Try it with the dime and let's see how long it takes.

Okay. Start now. Six minutes.

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. I think I can improve on that.

Mr. BALL. And the only tool you used was a 10-cent piece?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. That is correct.

Mr. BALL. That is all.

Senator COOPER. Does the bolt work all right now?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Once in a while with regard to the top portion--namely the retaining screw and the top stock--you have trouble getting them engaged on this particular model.

The CHAIRMAN. Yes.

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. That is the case on this weapon. On that one over there, however, it slid right on when I put it together a little while ago; it was much faster.

The CHAIRMAN. Yes. This is a weapon identical to the one that has been identified as the assassination weapon?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. This is the assassination weapon.

Mr. BALL. This is the weapon found on the sixth floor of the Texas Book Depository.

The CHAIRMAN. May I ask, have you fired it?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Many times.

The CHAIRMAN. That has been fired many times?

Mr. BELIN. You can disassemble it in a lesser amount of time, I assume.

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Definitely, it comes apart much faster. I can do it for you.

The CHAIRMAN. I understand with a screwdriver you put the rifle together in 2 minutes.

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes, sir; a few seconds over 2 minutes, somewhere around 2-1/4, 2-1/2 minutes, readily.

The CHAIRMAN. Yes.

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. And I am sure I can assemble it faster the second time with a dime than I did the last time but I did have trouble with that one retaining screw.

The CHAIRMAN. Is there anything more you have on this?

Mr. BALL. No.

The CHAIRMAN. Anybody?

Well, Agent Cunningham, thank you very much, sir.

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Thank you, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Gentlemen, if there are no further witnesses today, we will adjourn for the day, and we will meet tomorrow morning at 9 o'clock for the purpose of taking further testimony.

(Whereupon, at 12:45 p.m., the President's Commission recessed.)

_Thursday, March 12, 1964_

TESTIMONY OF WILLIAM WAYNE WHALEY AND CECIL J. McWATTERS

The President's Commission met at 9:20 a.m. on March 12, 1964, 200 Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C.

Present were Chief Justice Earl Warren, Chairman; Senator John Cooper and Representative Gerald R. Ford, members.

Also present were J. Lee Rankin, general counsel; Joseph A. Ball, assistant counsel; David W. Belin, assistant counsel; Melvin Aron Eisenberg, assistant counsel; Lewis F. Powell, Jr. and Charles Murray, observers.

TESTIMONY OF WILLIAM WAYNE WHALEY

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Whaley, the purpose of our meeting today is to take some further testimony concerning the events surrounding the assassination of President Kennedy, and we understand you have some facts that will bear on it in a way and we would like to ask you questions concerning it.

Will you rise, please, raise your right hand to be sworn?

Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. WHALEY. I do, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Will you be seated, please? Mr. Ball will conduct the examination.

Mr. BALL. Mr. Whaley, what is your business?

Mr. WHALEY. I am a taxi driver, sir.

Mr. BALL. How long have you been a taxi driver?

Mr. WHALEY. 37 years.

Mr. BALL. You worked all that time in Dallas?

Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What is your residence?

Mr. WHALEY. 619 Pine Street, Route 2, Louisville, Tex., 26 miles north of Dallas.

Mr. BALL. But you drive a taxicab in Dallas?

Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Whom do you work for?

Mr. WHALEY. City Transportation Company.

Mr. BALL. You are an employee of theirs, are you?

Mr. WHALEY. Yes.

Mr. BALL. You don't own your own cab?

Mr. WHALEY. No, sir; they don't allow that in that city.

Mr. BALL. How long have you worked for that company?

Mr. WHALEY. 37 years. Not for that company, sir, but for the original owners, it started out. I have been in with that original company but all banded together in one cab company.

Mr. BALL. Were you on duty on the 22nd of November 1963?

Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What were your hours that day at work?

Mr. WHALEY. Well, my hours run from 6 to 4, sir; 6 in the morning to 4 in the afternoon.

Mr. BALL. What kind of a cab were you driving on that day?

Mr. WHALEY. A 1961 Checker.

Mr. BALL. Was it equipped with radio equipment?

Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. You can call in to your dispatcher?

Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir; I can.

Mr. BALL. By a two-way radio?

Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Do you operate on cab stands or do you cruise?

Mr. WHALEY. No, sir; you just go out in the morning and wherever they send you you go to work and wherever you unload you check in they give you another call like that.

Mr. BALL. About 12:30 that day where were you?

Mr. WHALEY. Well, about 12:30 as you say, sir; I was at the Greyhound bus station. I have a copy of my trip sheet here.

Mr. BALL. Could I see that, please?

Mr. WHALEY. The FBI took the original and the pictures of the cab and everything.

Mr. BALL. That is what I have been waiting for.

Mr. WHALEY. I think it is supposed to be delivered to you, sir.

Mr. BALL. That is right. I am glad you have that copy.

Mr. WHALEY. I thought maybe you might need it. You look down there it says Greyhound, 500 North Beckley, I think it is marked 12:30 to 12:45. Now that could have been 10 minutes off in each direction because I didn't use a watch, I just guess, in other words, all my trips are marked about 15 minutes each.

Mr. BALL. I am going to let you use this manifest to refresh your memory, Mr. Whaley. I have seen it. I am going to ask you some questions and you refresh your memory if you will from the manifest.

First of all, describe the document you are using, what is that?

Mr. WHALEY. It is a trip sheet manifest. The company gets the amount of money you have run, your meter reading and all, and they have to keep it because of the city ordinance requirement that the taxis make this kind of manifest.

Mr. BALL. Tell me when you make the entries, you make the entries when?

Mr. WHALEY. Sometimes I make them right after I make the trips, sir, and sometimes I make three or four trips before I make the entries.

Mr. BALL. Are you required by your employer to describe the trip, where you went, how far it was?

Mr. WHALEY. Not by the employer, sir. All the employers are interested in are the meter reading and your tolls. The city of Dallas ordinance requires that you put down where you picked the passenger up, where you unload the passenger. They are not interested in the price, the number of passengers and the time.

Mr. BALL. Now, the manifest does contain that information, though, does it?

Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir; it does.

Mr. BALL. Will you describe the different columns of the manifest, that information that is in each column generally?

Mr. WHALEY. Over on the left side, where you see call or pickup, if you get the call on your radio you mark with a "C" and if somebody hails you on the street that is marked "P" for pickup.

In the next column it has the trip numbers from one to fifty.

Mr. BALL. The number of the trips you make that day?

Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir. In the third column it says "from." Like this first one, 4924 Belmont and then to the next column, to the airport.

The next column is the "meter reading," what the meter said, $1.75. The next column says "flat rate." If it had been an extra passenger or so and you had a flat rate you would put it in that column.

The third column is "charge," the people who have the charge accounts through the company in the car, you put the meter reading in there because you don't get cash and you put charge, the company takes it off.

The next column says the number of passengers and that first trip was four passengers, time out six o'clock, I got that trip out of the barn and it is marked "call."

6:20 is "time in." "Mileage in" was 44. Now, see I didn't put the mileage out on the first one, the mileage out is up here, 35 to 44. It would have been nine miles I made on the first trip.

Over here on the side here, it has the number of trips I made that day which is 21, on the meter registered 21 trips 45 cents a trip is $9.45. 157 units, a unit is a dime clicks every four-tenths of a mile. That would be 157 units at $15.70. Added total of $25.15. I used 5-1/2 gallons of gas, had eight pickups in 13 calls and 29 passengers. That is it complete, sir.

Mr. BALL. I see.

Now, look at your manifest and tell me where you were at 12 o'clock the day of November 22, 1963.

Mr. WHALEY. 12 o'clock I got a call to the Travis Hotel. I have got it marked 16 which is the Continental bus station, stand No. 15, 55 cents. I unloaded that at 12:15.

Mr. BALL. Then where did you go at 12:15 according to your record?

Mr. WHALEY. According to my record I got a pickup at the Continental bus station which is stand 16 and went to the Greyhound which is 55 cents. I unloaded at the Greyhound, I have got it marked 12:30. See there is that 15 minutes you say I am off, I just mark it 15, I don't put the correct time on the sheet because they don't require it, sir, but anywhere approximate.

Mr. BALL. In other words, it took you about 15 minutes to go----

Mr. WHALEY. It actually took about nine minutes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And you put the trip ending Greyhound around 12:30?

Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. You remember that trip, do you, you remember the fact that you took the trip to the Greyhound and parked your car at the Greyhound or your cab at the Greyhound, don't you?

Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir; I remember it.

Mr. BALL. Were you standing at the Greyhound, at your cab stand at the Greyhound, long before you picked up another passenger?

Mr. WHALEY. No, sir, there was no one at the Greyhound stand and when I unloaded at the door I just pulled up about 30 feet to the stand and stopped and then I wanted a package of cigarettes, I was out so I started to get out and I saw this passenger coming so I waited for him.

Mr. BALL. He was coming down the street?

Mr. WHALEY. He was walking down the street.

Mr. BALL. What street was he walking down?

Mr. WHALEY. Lamar.

Mr. BALL. Would that mean he was walking south on Lamar?

Mr. WHALEY. He was walking south on Lamar from Commerce when I saw him.

Mr. BALL. That would be on which side of the street?

Mr. WHALEY. The west side of the street.

Mr. BALL. South on Lamar?

Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did you notice how he was dressed?