Chapter XXII: Part 22

Mr. LIEBELER. That was a visa for him to return?

Mrs. FORD. Yes; and the little girl, June, was born there because of that.

Mr. LIEBELER. And Lee Oswald blamed the Americans for causing the delay?

Mrs. FORD. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he indicate what attitude the Russian authorities took when he told them he wanted to come back to the United States?

Mrs. FORD. No; I don't know. He didn't say anything. I don't remember discussing it.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he say anything about the attitude they took toward letting Marina leave Russia and coming to the United States?

Mrs. FORD. I don't believe anything was said about that.

Mr. LIEBELER. Is there anything else you can remember about that luncheon now you think we ought to know about?

Mrs. FORD. Well, I am thinking, I really don't think I remember anything else.

Mr. LIEBELER. What was the next contact then that you had with the Oswalds?

Mrs. FORD. I think it must have been at--in late October or the first part of November when Mr. Bouhe called me and said that Marina made a call to Anna Meller and told her she is leaving her husband because of she can't stand the beating and treatment any longer from Lee Oswald, but none of us knew at the moment that he had mistreated her that way, but at the time at the party I remember seeing Marina with bruises on her face and she made excuses of running into a door or something at the night when attending the baby.

Mr. LIEBELER. This was the first time you saw her?

Mrs. FORD. That is right, the first time I saw her I did see bruises on her face. And George Bouhe was saying that Anna Meller, I don't know who picked her up, I believe George Bouhe because Anna Meller don't have a car, they went to Marina's apartment and picked up the baby things, playpen, and other things that she could take with her at the time, and she stayed there, I couldn't say how many days.

Mr. LIEBELER. Stayed with Mrs. Meller?

Mrs. FORD. With Mrs. Meller, I don't think it was longer than a week, and then my husband was supposed to go away for a week or so; I don't remember the time, I thought he was going--he said he had to go Austin and I told Mr. Bouhe that I could take her for a week, just take her in, if she didn't have a place to go, so I did, and she stayed with me.

Mr. LIEBELER. Why did she come to you as opposed to staying with Anna Meller?

Mrs. FORD. Anna Meller has a small two-room apartment and I have a bigger house. We have four bedrooms so I could make room for her and her children.

Mr. LIEBELER. When Mr. Bouhe called you and told you about this, did he tell you anything about why Marina was leaving Lee Oswald?

Mrs. FORD. Yes; he said because of mistreatment and she decided she is not going to return to him any longer, and Mr. Bouhe said, told her, if she made a promise to him she is not going to return to that man he will help her all he could to find a place to stay permanently such as maybe as help at home at somebody's house until she learns enough English to start going on her own whatever she could do.

And I think he was trying to do, he was trying to find a place and that is the reason before that she needed a place to stay until she did find a place, and I kept her for a week until my husband returned and then another friend of mine, who also has a fairly large place where Marina could be comfortable, she told me she could keep her there for as long as Marina wished to stay.

Mr. LIEBELER. How did Marina actually get to your place? Did Mr. Bouhe bring her to your place?

Mrs. FORD. Yes; he did.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know how long Marina stayed with Anna Meller before she came to your place?

Mrs. FORD. It could be a week but I am not sure. But I don't think it is longer than a week.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Lee Oswald come to see Marina while Marina was at your house?

Mrs. FORD. No; he did not but he did talk to her on the telephone, I think approximately after 3 days, after she stayed with me he called her up every night, I think he did call, every evening.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Marina talk to him on the telephone?

Mrs. FORD. She was hesitating at first but he wouldn't leave the telephone until she came to telephone and she was talking to him. I didn't hear what he was saying but she was telling him not to call on her again and not to bother, she was not going to return to him.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did she tell you what the conversations were about?

Mrs. FORD. No. She did not say anything.

Representative FORD. When was this period that she stayed with you, October and November of 1963?

Mrs. FORD. I believe it must have been the first part of November.

Representative FORD. Of 1963?

Mrs. FORD. 1962.

Representative FORD. 1962.

Mrs. FORD. That is correct.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, did Marina Oswald pay you anything for the privilege of staying at your home at that time?

Mrs. FORD. No; I did not expect it.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was there any arrangement she would work in the house?

Mrs. FORD. No; there was no arrangement; no.

Mr. LIEBELER. Tell us what Marina told you while she was staying there about her relations with Lee Oswald and particularly as to why she separated from him and what the difficulties were in their marriage?

Mrs. FORD. I think mostly it was a mistreatment by him that she couldn't stand any longer, she was saying.

Mr. LIEBELER. Mistreatment by him?

Mrs. FORD. Mistreatment by him; yes. That is what she was saying.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did she tell you any more specifically than that what the problem was?

Mrs. FORD. No; she didn't really. She did not elaborate. She did not go into explanations of their living together.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did she mention that Lee Oswald was jealous of the Russian friends that Marina had?

Mrs. FORD. Yes; she did. She told me that, that he was.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did they argue about that?

Mrs. FORD. Well, I didn't know if they were arguing about that. I know she said that he was very jealous of them helping Marina and jealous for the reason that he wasn't able to provide her at the time with any of the things that they were giving Marina, clothes, and baby clothes, and I think that he was--it was making him rather mad because he said he was unable to buy the things for her at the time, and I know that he was not accepting things people were giving him. He was telling her not to take them but she was taking them because she needed them. I suppose they were arguing about that but I don't remember the particulars.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you form an impression at the time that Marina lived with you for that week as to what the cause of their difficulties might be?

Mrs. FORD. She mentioned one time that soon after marriage he told her he didn't love her any more in any way. So I don't know what is the difficulty, I don't know if that is what she mentioned. She did not explain and didn't go into explanations of this.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you think, did you form an opinion as to whether this separation and the difficulties they were having was primarily the result of Oswald's behavior or did you think Marina might have been partially responsible for it, what did you think?

Mrs. FORD. My own opinion was that Marina was responsible for it. I think Marina was and I think now she is a rather immature girl.

The CHAIRMAN. She is what?

Mrs. FORD. I think she is rather immature in thinking.

The CHAIRMAN. Oh, yes.

Mrs. FORD. And a lot of times she agreed herself about provoking him in a way by arguing about his mother or things of some sort.

Mr. LIEBELER. What did she tell you about arguments concerning his mother?

Mrs. FORD. Well, I don't know really. She would say something that he was badly brought up or something like that.

Representative FORD. He was what?

Mrs. FORD. Badly brought up, some sort of thing, and he would get mad and slam her for that or something and then he was telling her not to let mother in, and when mother comes to the apartment she would let her in and then they would argue over that.

Representative FORD. He would tell her not to let the mother in?

Mrs. FORD. That is right, and she would because she said she just couldn't do that.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Marina tell you at that time what her feelings toward Lee's mother were?

Mrs. FORD. I don't remember her saying anything one way or the other if she liked her or didn't.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember whether Marina might have mentioned that Lee Oswald had spoken to a neighbor and told the neighbor that Marina was from Czechoslovakia?

Mrs. FORD. No; I don't know of anything like that.

Mr. LIEBELER. You didn't know at any time that Oswald didn't want people to know that his wife was from Russia? Marina didn't mention that?

Mrs. FORD. Not around us, we didn't because we knew it anyway.

Mr. LIEBELER. Marina didn't mention anything like that to you?

Mrs. FORD. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. When Marina lived with you during that time did she tell you anything about her background in Russia, did she tell you about her birthplace and youth in Russia?

Mrs. FORD. Yes; she was going into more of that in talking with me more than anything else, I think. Actually most of the time she was talking about her friends during, I think about when she was going to school, about her boy friends and things she was talking to me about her friends and she did go into talk about when she lived in, let's see, it is not Ukraine, I think it is Bessarabia, right now where would that place be, to live there, and she was very young, I believe, let's see she was born during the war, and they were sent somewhere, I don't know where they were sent, but then she lived there in Bessarabia for a few years, because there was a lot of food there and vegetables and they were sent there, to feed, like they sent the cattle to be fed up, I believe that is the expression she used after the war where the children could eat a lot of fruit and then she returned to Leningrad, I believe.

I don't know how long she lived in Bessarabia.

Mr. LIEBELER. What did she tell you about her life in Leningrad, just briefly, if you will summarize it for us.

Mrs. FORD. Well, really, I don't know--the only thing I knew was about some of the things she was telling me about friends she had there, she had a friend that was a medical student and she told me she talked a lot on the telephone to him, and she was rather, I thought that is where I made the impression to me, it made an impression to me she was immature, she liked to talk to the man for a long time in the evening but she was afraid to be seen with him in the streets, he was ugly, so I thought it was rather strange, you know, and then----

Mr. LIEBELER. Did she tell you who she was living with in Leningrad?

Mrs. FORD. Yes; she was living with her stepfather, that is what I remember, living with a stepfather she was telling me.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did she tell you about her relations with her stepfather?

Mrs. FORD. Yes; she did. She didn't like him and I think he doesn't like her, either; they never did.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did she tell you any reasons why she did not like him?

Mrs. FORD. She was telling me a lot of times, she was telling me about her mother, the mother didn't want to show affection to Marina or something like that because the father was jealous of that affection, and I think he did some sort of a cruel thing to her once that she doesn't--she still remembers as being very cruel, something of accusing her of taking some family silver and selling it while she knows that he had pawned the silver for buying liquor, because it showed up, she couldn't explain it to her aunt and it just made her feel very bad at that time.

I think she just could never forgive him for that.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Marina tell you about her move to Minsk?

Mrs. FORD. Well, she didn't tell me at that time. I just found it out not too long ago that was the reasons she wanted to get away from a friend that she found out later that he was married, she went with him for a short while she did not know he was married, but she did not go into particulars of explaining the whole thing to me.

Representative FORD. She was going with a man who was married?

Mrs. FORD. Yes. She met him somewhere, she had two tickets, she said, to a theater or to a movie, and she wanted to sell one ticket and he was the person who bought the ticket and they sat together in a movie house and later on, I believe, I don't know how they got to know each other later on, it was a few times they met, they have seen each other and at one time she went to his apartment, to the house that he lived, to call on him, and someone said that, "oh, that is the man who has that little boy," and she said she just turned around and went home. That is the time she found out he was married and was deceiving her.

But I don't know why she left, I mean why, exactly she left but I think this is the person that was her reason for leaving Leningrad.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did she tell you that she had left in part at least to get away from this man?

Mrs. FORD. That is what I understood.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, did Marina tell you why she married Lee Oswald when she was in Russia, did she talk to you about that?

Mrs. FORD. Yes; she did.

I don't exactly know why she married him. But she said she met him at a dance, and soon after that, I don't know the reason why he was in the hospital but he was in a hospital, and she called on him, and I don't know how long he stayed there, either, and she liked the man, I think, and she bought him an Easter Egg, that was during Easter sometime and he was very surprised that such a thing could be done in Russia.

I think it rather pleased him very well. She said somehow she felt sorry for the man because none of her friends liked him, and mistrusted him, and she felt sort of like she was on the defensive, she wanted to, she felt sorry for him in a way.

Representative FORD. Did she tell you why her friends didn't trust him?

Mrs. FORD. Yes; she said they were thinking that he was an American spy or something like that, that is what they were trying to tell her. "Maybe he is a spy, and how can you trust a man like that?"

She told me the other day, she says no one trusted him, but she says, "I wasn't afraid of him," that is how she put it.

Representative FORD. Did Marina indicate to you whether she thought or had any reason to believe that Oswald was a spy?

Mrs. FORD. No; she didn't. She didn't think so. She never said that, I mean.

Representative FORD. Did Marina ever indicate to you or did you gather that one of the reasons that Marina married Lee Oswald was she had the possibility of leaving the Soviet Union in mind?

Mrs. FORD. Yes. She never did go out directly and say that but I think I got an impression that was her reason. She was telling me that way before she met Oswald she was dreaming of coming over here, and that is, I mean gathering by that later I thought that she wanted to come over, and he was, I suppose he was a reason.

Mr. LIEBELER. In this connection, I wanted to ask you whether you ever had any contact with any newspaper reporters from the Dallas newspapers about this, did they ask you about this at any time?

Mrs. FORD. About this I don't remember if they asked me. I don't remember. But a couple of reporters came to my house soon after the assassination and talked to me.

Mr. LIEBELER. I represent to you that there was a story in the November 27, 1963, issue of the Dallas Times Herald which told about some Russian-born woman in Dallas to whom Marina had supposedly confided some of the most intimate secrets of her stormy marriage, in the words of the newspaper article. Do you have any knowledge whether that would be you or somebody else?

Mrs. FORD. I think that would be me.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you tell the reporters that Marina had told you that Marina had felt sorry for Oswald because everybody hated him even in Russia?

Mrs. FORD. Yes; I might have said that.

Mr. LIEBELER. Marina did say that to you?

Mrs. FORD. Yes; she did.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Marina tell you anything at this time about their trip back to the United States and the difficulties that they encountered, or how they did it, that sort of thing?

Mrs. FORD. No; I never talked with her about that.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was there any conversation while Marina stayed with you during that week in November 1962, about the possibility of a divorce, of her divorcing Lee Oswald?

Mrs. FORD. The possibility--I know she didn't want to go back to him at the time she stayed with me.

Mr. LIEBELER. But you don't remember any specific conversation?

Mrs. FORD. No; I don't remember any specific conversation.

Mr. LIEBELER. About divorce?

Mrs. FORD. Frankly, there was talk about it, she didn't want to go back and I just told her, I felt that Marina wasn't really the domestic type she could stand very long being a help at home, not that I think she is not capable of taking care of her own house. I see now since she has got even her own place she keeps it very clean and her children are always neat. But she wasn't right for domestic help and I told her to stay with Lee, that is what I told her myself, and wait until she could be able to take care of herself other than working in a house.

Mr. LIEBELER. What did she say about that?

Mrs. FORD. She didn't say, she was really just listening, I think, and she didn't say anything.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Marina say anything to you at this time about wanting to go back to Russia?

Mrs. FORD. No, no; she didn't want to.

In fact, she told me that Lee soon after he came to the United States, he was telling her that he would want to go back because he couldn't find a job here and he was, of course, seeing a lot of difficulties for himself, and Marina said, "If you want to go back, you can go but I am not going," that is what she told me.

Mr. LIEBELER. Marina told Lee if he wanted to go back he could but she wasn't going to go back to Russia.

Mrs. FORD. That is right.

Mr. LIEBELER. Is that all the conversation that you had with her about going back to Russia at that time?

Mrs. FORD. That is right. That is about all.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you know where the Oswalds lived at this time when Marina came to the Meller's house and then to your house?

Mrs. FORD. No; I have never been at their apartment, and she couldn't tell me. I know she lived in Oak Cliff, the Dallas section about southwest, I believe.

Mr. LIEBELER. In Dallas?

Mrs. FORD. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you know whether Marina had lived with a lady in Fort Worth before they came to Dallas?

Mrs. FORD. Yes; I know they stayed there but I didn't talk to her during the time and I didn't visit her. I know she stayed at Elena Hall's house and I think Elena had an accident just before that and she was--she stayed in bed most of the time. Marina was helping her out.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, you had only seen Lee Oswald, up to this week that Marina came to live with you, one time, is that correct?

Mrs. FORD. That is correct.

Mr. LIEBELER. That was the Meller's luncheon party?

Mrs. FORD. That is correct.

Mr. LIEBELER. Were you surprised on the basis of any judgment you might have made of Lee Oswald to learn that he had beaten his wife?

Mrs. FORD. Just from seeing him once I would not have made--no; that he has beaten his wife; no, I didn't think at that time. I did, when she came in after I learned that he has beaten her, I was rather--I remember the bruises on her face and that rather made signs to me that he did.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did it surprise you that he would have done this?

Mrs. FORD. No; it did not surprise me. I just felt that young man as he was, if he was--decided to go to Russia after living in a country like the United States, I didn't feel he was very, what shall I say, how would you say, a person's mind won't work at this time----

The CHAIRMAN. Unstable?

Mrs. FORD. Unstable, that is how I felt. I felt a person like that, I felt frankly could do anything.

Representative FORD. Did she ever tell you that Lee Oswald was the cause of these bruises on her face?

Mrs. FORD. Well, she did tell me after she came to the house to stay with me.

Representative FORD. That is what I mean?

Mrs. FORD. That is right.

Representative FORD. The bruises you saw on her face at the house she told you Lee Oswald was the cause?

Mrs. FORD. Yes, that is right.

Mr. LIEBELER. Let's clarify that a little. Did Marina Oswald have any bruises at the time she came to live in your house in November 1962?

Mrs. FORD. No; that is right. But she stayed at Anna Meller's house for a week and when she came to Anna Meller's house I heard there were bruises at that time.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Anna Meller tell you that?

Mrs. FORD. Either Anna Meller or George Bouhe told me that. I don't remember.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you yourself did see bruises on her face the first time?

Mrs. FORD. I did see the first time; yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did she tell you that Lee Oswald had given her those bruises?

Mrs. FORD. That is right.

Mr. LIEBELER. She told you that when she stayed with you?

Mrs. FORD. That is right.

Mr. LIEBELER. Tell us the circumstances under which Marina left your home in November of 1962, where she went and what happened?

Mrs. FORD. Well, she stayed with me a week, and my husband came home on Saturday, and we discussed with another friend of mine for Marina to go to her house and stay there as long as she wanted, and I think Sunday morning this friend of mine, Anna Ray, came with a station wagon and picked all her things up, her playpen she had for baby, and diapers and things, and took her to her house and I believe my husband was with her, too, at that time and that is how she left.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, do you know how long she stayed with the Rays?

Mrs. FORD. With the Rays. I think she just stayed there, she had had dinner there, I believe she stayed one afternoon. I don't know how soon Lee came there but he came soon over to the house, but Marina said he cried and begged her to return, he would be nothing, if she didn't return, he would be finished, that is what he was telling her, and she said she just couldn't say, no to him.

Mr. LIEBELER. So she returned to Oswald at that time?

Mrs. FORD. Yes; she returned to Oswald.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever talk with the Mellers about their experiences with Marina when she lived at their house for that time?

Mrs. FORD. No; I don't remember, she did not discuss it.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you remember or did you know where Lee Oswald was living prior to the time that Marina came to Dallas?

Mrs. FORD. No; I don't know where he lived at any time.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you know where he was working at that time or if he was working at all?

Mrs. FORD. During the time they lived in Dallas, I believe, I don't know exactly, though, either George Bouhe or Anna Meller's husband found him a job in a printing shop, I think, or I believe it is printing shop, somewhere in Oak Cliff, and that is why they had an apartment there. I remember that is the reason because George Bouhe was rather mad at Marina for taking an apartment in Oak Cliff because it was too far for him to drive and help her when she needed help and the baby, I think he was taking her to the dentist and taking the baby to a doctor to help her in ways that she couldn't do herself.

Representative FORD. Who was doing this driving?

Mrs. FORD. I believe George Bouhe did this. He has the car.

Mr. LIEBELER. Where does Mr. Bouhe live?

Mrs. FORD. He lives, well, I don't know his address now. I know where he lives but I don't know the street number.

Mr. LIEBELER. But it is not in the Oak Cliff Section of Dallas?

Mrs. FORD. No; it is not. I think it would be in the east part of Dallas.

Mr. LIEBELER. During the time that Marina stayed with you, did she say anything to you about Lee Oswald's political beliefs or his attitudes concerning politics?

Mrs. FORD. No; she didn't talk to me about that and I didn't ask her.

Frankly, I didn't talk with Lee about that, I didn't feel the need of it myself to discuss politics with him.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you discuss that subject with any of your friends?

Mrs. FORD. Well, yes. They were telling me, those friends that went to his apartment, were telling me, that they have seen books like Karl Marx open in front of him, just lying there on the table, that he didn't even hide it when someone came in, and then someone else said there was a book laying there of How to Be a Spy, laying right open there.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember who told you that?

Mrs. FORD. I believe it was Lydia Dymitruk.

Mr. LIEBELER. D-y-m-i-t-r-u-k.

Do you remember anything about that particular conversation?

Mrs. FORD. Well, she was telling me, she took, when the baby left my house, she had a cold, and it was getting worse, and I believe soon after she left Anna Ray, the baby began to have a fever, and Lydia, I believe, I don't know how she got to go to her apartment, really, I don't know the reason she went there; she went there and wanted to take the baby to the doctor and she told me of an incident that says even Marina was ashamed of Lee because when she took her to the hospital Lee was lying about that he didn't have a job at the time, which Lydia knew that he did have. He didn't want to pay for the services, and people at the hospital was asking him how does he pay for the apartment and he was telling them that, "My friends were helping me," and Marina just said something in Russian that Lydia remembers, "What a liar," you know, behind his back.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did she say that so he could hear it?

Mrs. FORD. I think so, because she said it aloud.

Mr. LIEBELER. And she said it in Russian?

Mrs. FORD. Yes; she did.

Mr. LIEBELER. In front of Lydia Dymitruk?

Mrs. FORD. Yes; that is right, and Lydia was rather mad about the whole thing and she said she is not going to help them any more if they are acting that way.

The baby wasn't helped at the hospital. I think the hospital didn't want to take the child because the father couldn't pay, that is what I got, the father couldn't pay for it.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever see Marina say anything adverse to Oswald in his presence, did she run him down or make fun of him in public so far as you know?

Mrs. FORD. As far as I know, I don't, except the first time, the one time, I would think when she said, "What a liar," in front of him.

Mr. LIEBELER. You don't know of any other instance when she would have done that?

Mrs. FORD. I don't know of any other instance.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether she ever spoke of his political views before other people or make fun of him?

Mrs. FORD. No; I don't remember except lately I have been talking to her about that and she said she thought of him being young, and she thought she hoped it would pass with years, that he would mature, this is what she was telling me.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did she tell you whether or not she discussed politics with him herself? Did she argue with him about anything?

Mrs. FORD. She said she was arguing with him about that. Certainly, in fact, he called her, she was typical American girl, that she is not interested at all in politics, except in the material things that he wasn't interested in. She said she wanted a house and a family and he said, "All the American girls think that way" and he thought he married a different sort of a girl, a Russian girl.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, think back on that week that Marina stayed with you. Is there anything else that happened or is there anything that Marina told you that you think we should know about and about which I haven't already asked you?

Mrs. FORD. I cannot think of it at the time.

Mr. LIEBELER. When was the next contact that you had with the Oswalds'?

Mrs. FORD. It was right after Christmas before New Year's. I believe it was the 28th of December, a Friday. I gave, I had, a party for all the friends, and I invited a family by the name of De Mohrenschildt, wife and husband, and Mrs. De Mohrenschildt called me up and asked me if she couldn't bring Marina and her husband over because she was saying it is a shame the way all their Russian friends have forsaken them during that time and they had no place to go and the De Mohrenschildts were the only ones helping them at the time, and I told her I didn't object to it. So she brought them over with them.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was Mr. Bouhe at the party?

Mrs. FORD. Yes; I think so.

Mr. LIEBELER. Mr. and Mrs. Frank Ray?

Mrs. FORD. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Mr. and Mrs. Thomas Ray?

Mrs. FORD. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Were Elena Hall and her husband there?

Mrs. FORD. I don't remember them being at that party. I don't think so.

Mr. LIEBELER. Were the Mellers there?

Mrs. FORD. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. You mentioned that De Mohrenschildt was there.

Mrs. FORD. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. And the Oswalds.

Mrs. FORD. That is right.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was there a gentleman by the name of Allen A. Jackson at the party?

Mrs. FORD. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. And his wife?

Mrs. FORD. And his wife.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember any conversations or observe any conversations between Marina Oswald and Mr. Jackson?

Mrs. FORD. Marina Oswald, no; I don't think so. I don't think Marina spoke English at the time.

Mr. LIEBELER. Were Mr. and Mrs. Charles Edward Harris at the party?

Mrs. FORD. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you talk to Mr. and Mrs. Harris about the party afterward?

Mrs. FORD. I might have.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did she mention translating a conversation between Mr. Jackson and Marina Oswald?

Mrs. FORD. No; she did not mention it to me.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you didn't see her doing that?

Mrs. FORD. No; I didn't see her doing that at the party.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any conversation with Lee Oswald at the party that night?

Mrs. FORD. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you notice anybody else talking to him?

Mrs. FORD. Yes; I did. I noticed a girl talking to him who was of Japanese descent but I don't remember her name.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was there anything striking about that?

Mrs. FORD. No; I think, the only thing it was that I think he talked to her most of the time and wasn't making any conversation with anyone else.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Marina comment on that to you?

Mrs. FORD. No; she didn't. But I heard from somebody else that she did comment.

Mr. LIEBELER. Who told you that?

Mrs. FORD. I think George Bouhe again. He always spoke to everybody.

Mr. LIEBELER. What did Mr. Bouhe say about that?

Mrs. FORD. Well, he said something that I asked Marina afterward and she told me that it wasn't true. He said that Lee talked to that Japanese girl like a--it is an expression in Russia to take a bath and then beat themselves with the leaves from a tree, and the leaf would stick to the body, in the wintertime, and so the expression from that, like a leaf sticks to the hot body when you take a bath, you know. Then I suppose Lee struck her as just not saying anything--and I asked Marina and she said he did not do it.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was there any talk at the party about Oswald's experiences in Russia or his marriage to Marina?

Mrs. FORD. During the party?

Mr. LIEBELER. Yes.

Mrs. FORD. No; I didn't talk to him at all.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you didn't overhear anybody else talking about Oswald's experiences in Russia?

Mrs. FORD. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. You mentioned that the Oswalds came with De Mohrensehildt. Did they go home with De Mohrensehildt?

Mrs. FORD. Yes; they did because Mrs. De Mohrensehildt stated that the lady who stayed with Oswald's child had to leave at 12 o'clock and they left before that.

Mr. LIEBELER. After the Oswalds left the party, was there any discussion about the Oswalds that you can remember?

Mrs. FORD. No; really not. I don't think they made a big impression on that party on anybody.

Mr. LIEBELER. Can you fix the date on which your party was held?

Mrs. FORD. The 28th of December.

Mr. LIEBELER. What year?

Mrs. FORD. 1962.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was there any other party the next day or the day after that?

Mrs. FORD. There were other parties. I don't think that Marina and her husband were present. I don't know if you would call it a party, there was a sort of a get-together at my house afterward because some people stayed over in town for a few days, I think that was the Rays, and the Harrises, and a friend of my husband from Louisiana, Sullivans, stayed there. But they hadn't met Oswald, they came much later after 12 o'clock. So we sort of had a get-together.

Mr. LIEBELER. This would have been the next day?

Mrs. FORD. The next day.

Mr. LIEBELER. On the 29th of December.

Was Mr. Bouhe----

Mrs. FORD. No; Mr. Bouhe wasn't present at that time.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was there any conversation at that time about Oswald?

Mrs. FORD. I don't remember, 1 don't think so.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember that there was a party or open house at Mr. Bouhe's house on the 29th?

Mrs. FORD. If there was, I wasn't present, I didn't go.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was there a party at Meller's house?

Mrs. FORD. There was a party or luncheon.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you go?

Mrs. FORD. No; I didn't go.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you hear any conversation during this period of 3 or 4 days about Oswald, anybody speculating about Oswald or discussing his experiences----

Mrs. FORD. No; I think----

Mr. LIEBELER. In Russia?

Mrs. FORD. I think at that time everyone rather--George Bouhe said he was not going to help them any more, he was through, since Marina, he tried to help her very hard, and she did not hold her word about not going back to him. So he said since she went back, so now it is her problem.

Well, he is sort of that type of man, he is trying to help hard and if you are doing what he says otherwise he is not going to help, so that was it. So it was rather, sort of Marina and her husband were dropped at that time, nobody actually wanted to help, and I think what they heard about Lydia Dymitruk was saying that he couldn't help those people. I mean they were just sort of--he couldn't reach them. He was lying in hospital and things, we sort of gave it up.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Lydia make that remark at one of those parties or was that at a previous time?

Mrs. FORD. Oh, that was a previous time. As soon as she left to go back to her husband, George Bouhe even took the Russian dictionary back to him. He told her to give it back and he was just through with him.

Mr. LIEBELER. So far as you know Mr. Bouhe had no more contact with the Oswalds after that?

Mrs. FORD. No; I don't think so.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any conversation with any of your friends in Dallas or Fort Worth on the question of Oswald's ability to leave Russia and come back to the United States and bring Marina with him?

Mrs. FORD. We didn't speculate on that until really later, until now, after the assassination that subject came up, and people asking why they left so soon. He was telling me it took them a year, so I don't know.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was there any conversation prior to the assassination, during this period in 1962, any speculation as to whether Oswald might be an agent of any government?

Mrs. FORD. No. I frankly didn't think he was capable of it. That was my feeling on it.

Mr. LIEBELER. Were there any conversations on that?

Mrs. FORD. No. There were not.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember that Mr. Bouhe suggested at one time that Oswald was a mental case?

Mrs. FORD. Mr. Bouhe, he might have; yes, I think we all thought that.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember that Mr. Bouhe said that?

Mrs. FORD. I don't remember particularly that he would say that.

The CHAIRMAN. Did you say, "We all thought that"?

Mrs. FORD. Yes; we thought that, that he was rather mentally--you just said the word before.

The CHAIRMAN. Unstable?

Mrs. FORD. Unstable.

Mr. LIEBELER. Unstable.

Why did you think that, Mrs. Ford?

Mrs. FORD. In my own opinion, I just didn't think that a man as young as he was could come to the conclusions just by rather experiences or living a long time in America and I mean studying the whole economic structures of different governments, and things that he would come to the conclusion that is the best thing for him. I think he was just rather too young for that.

I thought he was just rather--something was rather wrong with the man.

Mr. LIEBELER. You based this----

Representative FORD. In the conversation that Oswald had with this Japanese lady at your party, did you overhear any of that conversation?

Mrs. FORD. No; I did not. I did not have time, I was the hostess and I just didn't get to talk to anyone.

Representative FORD. Did you ever ask the Japanese lady what the gist of the conversation was or what the content of the conversation was?

Mrs. FORD. No; I never have. In fact, I have not seen her after that. That was the first time she came to my house. I mean I have seen her later on in the beauty shop but I have never talked to her about it.

Representative FORD. Did she speak English?

Mrs. FORD. Yes; she speaks English well.

Representative FORD. All right.

Mr. LIEBELER. At this get-together that you mentioned at your house on, I think it was the 29th, after the party, the informal get-together, the Rays were there, and the Sullivans, and Mr. and Mrs. Harris.

Would it refresh your recollection if I suggested to you that some of the people that were there at that party said the possibility of Oswald being a Russian agent was discussed in detail at that party in that group?

Mrs. FORD. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. You don't remember any of the discussion?

Mrs. FORD. I don't remember any of the discussion.

Mr. LIEBELER. Is there anything other than what you told us that led you to believe that Oswald was unstable or a mental case?

Mrs. FORD. Nothing, except that I was thinking about him myself beating his wife. That would have been one reason. I don't think that any stable man would do that, especially she appeared to me very sick sort of a woman, not sick, but frail and fragile, I think any man who strikes a woman who is incapable of striking back, I would think would be unstable.

Mr. LIEBELER. This Russian group that we have been discussing, Mr. Bouhe and these other people, do they see each other regularly? Is there sort of a Russian community in Dallas, would you say?

Mrs. FORD. Yes; there are about, I think, maybe four families in Fort Worth and maybe half a dozen in Dallas or more than that, but that mainly we see each other, and there is one Eastern Orthodox Church in Russia where that is where we actually meet each other.

Mr. LIEBELER. In Dallas, you mean, or Fort Worth?

Mrs. FORD. Dallas. I am sorry. In Dallas, and we still observe our Eastern Orthodox religion during the holidays and sometimes like Christmas falls 13 days after the American Christmas so there is New Year's sometimes we celebrate those.

Mr. LIEBELER. How well do you know the De Mohrenschildts?

Mrs. FORD. Well, I know George De Mohrenschildt the same, approximately, I will say I was acquainted with him for approximately 14 years but I don't know him well.

Mr. LIEBELER. You mentioned before that De Mohrenschildt was the only member of the Russian community that kept on seeing the Oswalds and trying to help them.

Was there any discussion about that among your friends?

Mrs. FORD. Yes; George De Mohrenschildt is rather an odd ball, among Russians anyway, so it was nothing unusual about him doing that. He was always doing something unusual. He would even go to church with shorts on, you know, this is something, he would do something that nobody else would do.

Mr. LIEBELER. Shorts?

Mrs. FORD. Shorts.

Mr. LIEBELER. Short trousers?

Mrs. FORD. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember any specific conversations about the reasons as to why De Mohrenschildt continued to associate with the Oswalds after the rest of you had given them up.

Mrs. FORD. Well, I remember his wife was telling me like she felt it was their duty now since everybody else dropped them and they needed help.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember any conversation with the Oswalds among any of your friends as to whether or not Oswald went hunting in Russia and had access to weapons?

Mrs. FORD. Yes; I think that George Bouhe was telling me that. He was telling him that he was going hunting and he told him about killing ducks or something of that type.

Mr. LIEBELER. Can you remember that in any greater detail?

Mrs. FORD. No; I don't remember it. I only remember that because of the way he was saying, "ducks" in Russian, George was saying that he was using sort of a word when you call for it, it is a small duck rather than for ducks, he was saying that his Russian wasn't perfect.

I mean in that conversation he was using, an example of he was saying, when he would go hunting for ducks, instead of "utki" for ducks he would say "utitschki" that would mean small ducks, and he was saying that his Russian was imperfect.

Mr. LIEBELER. That is Oswald's Russian?

Mrs. FORD. That is right.

Mr. LIEBELER. What about Marina's ability to speak English at that time, did she speak English at that time?

Mrs. FORD. I don't think she did. She could speak a few words but I don't think she did.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did any of you attempt to teach her English?

Mrs. FORD. Yes; George Bouhe was attempting to teach her to write and was giving her lessons.

Mr. LIEBELER. Can you tell us something about that?

Mrs. FORD. Well, he was telling me that he had gotten her a dictionary and he had--or some other book anyway and he was telling me that every time he saw her, made an attempt to see her I don't know how he did that but anyway he was giving her a lesson and she was supposed to have completed it by the next time in writing.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Mr. Bouhe tell you anything about Marina's ability to speak English or write English? Did Marina learn as a result of that?

Mrs. FORD. He said she was doing very well. I don't know if she learned to speak but he said she was a good student.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Lee Oswald ever object to this effort on Mr. Bouhe's part?

Mrs. FORD. Well, he was objecting to anyone of the Russians helping her.

Mr. LIEBELER. Helping her learn English?

Mrs. FORD. Not learning English, but I mean helping her about anything. I don't know whether he was objecting to that. But we talked with Lee about this, why he wasn't teaching her English and he wasn't speaking to her and he said that he didn't want to forget Russian and he really said, "If she wants," this is what Marina said the other day, that he didn't actually object, but he thought if she could learn Russian just by herself in any way she could, she could, but he is not going to help her. He just didn't want to help her by speaking English.

Mr. LIEBELER. You mean English.

Mrs. FORD. That is right. He is not going to talk English with her, he wanted Russian. He wanted for the little girl to learn Russian and for himself not to forget it.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he indicate, in other words that he wanted Marina to speak Russian so that he could maintain his own ability in Russian?

Mrs. FORD. That is correct.

Mr. LIEBELER. And he also wanted his children to learn to speak Russian?

Mrs. FORD. That is right.

Mr. LIEBELER. After this party on the 28th of December, what was your next contact with either Lee or Marina Oswald?

Mrs. FORD. After the 28th? I think after the assassination, I only heard once about her, I just heard she went to New Orleans. Again a friend, Lydia Dymitruk, was in the bakery and she said she saw Marina coming in and she told her she thought Marina was pregnant and she told her Marina was going to New Orleans. That is the only time I have heard anything about them after that party. The next contact I had with her was, I don't know the date but it was soon after the assassination when I just felt sorry for Marina, I thought she was, I always felt she was innocent, I thought she was a naive girl in a lot of ways and that is why she got into a lot of problems and troubles.

I just felt if she didn't have anybody there except the FBI and nobody to speak in Russian, she didn't know how everybody felt, I would think she would feel very badly, so I called Mrs. Paine who, I found out after the assassination she was a friend of Marina's and I told her that if she would have a contact with Marina, tell her that we sympathize with her that she is in the position that she is, and to call me or to let me--that I would like to talk with her.

Mr. LIEBELER. Can you tell us approximately when it was that you talked to Mrs. Paine?

Mrs. FORD. I think that was either the first part of December, I think it must have been at least a week after the assassination.

Mr. LIEBELER. In early December?

Mrs. FORD. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. What happened after that?

Mrs. FORD. Right after that, I think the next day Marina called me, and she said the reason she called me was because Mrs. Paine told her that I called, and let her know.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember specifically that Marina told you that she, Marina, had talked to Mrs. Paine?

Mrs. FORD. Well, this, I don't know. I think that is what she did. In fact, I think that Mrs. Paine told me she talked on the telephone with Marina but I couldn't be positive about it. I know she wrote letters, they wrote, I know Mrs. Paine wrote to Marina, and I couldn't exactly say she talked to her on the telephone or how it was, either Marina called Mrs. Paine or I don't know.

Mr. LIEBELER. You say you know Marina wrote Mrs. Paine a letter? Did Marina tell you that she wrote Mrs. Paine during that period?

Mrs. FORD. I don't remember. I know later Mrs. Paine kept calling me and asked if I heard from Marina, because she kept writing to Marina and Marina didn't answer, so she wanted to know if I talked to her, that she was the reason she was calling me.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Mrs. Paine indicate to you after she called you trying to find out from Marina, did she indicate to you she had or had not heard from Marina since the assassination?

Mrs. FORD. I believe she told me she talked on the telephone with her right soon after, after I did.

Mr. LIEBELER. During this first telephone conversation with Marina, was there anything said about the events of the assassination in any way?

Mrs. FORD. No; not at all, except that Marina was very surprised the way people treated her. She was telling me that if it had happened in Russia, she just would--she just knew she wouldn't be talking to me or anybody else. She knew they would be sent to Siberia or shot right away is what she said.

Mr. LIEBELER. Is that what Marina said?

Mrs. FORD. That is what she said. I told her that was the big difference in Russian Government and the American Government. And then she asked me for advice. Someone contacted her at the time from a western paper and offered her $10,000 or something for the story and she asked me if it was the right thing to do because she felt she didn't want to make money on such a thing, a horrible thing as that, and I advised her to take the money because I thought she would need it for the children.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, after that first--was there anything else you discussed in that telephone conversation?

Mrs. FORD. No; I think we talked mostly about that book deal, about the offer she had.

Mr. LIEBELER. After that first telephone conversation, what was the next contact you had with Marina?

Mrs. FORD. That was quite a long time after that when it was again Mrs. Paine contacted me, and wanted to know if I could go and translate for them for, we were saying about that yesterday, what is that union.

Mr. LIEBELER. I did talk to you yesterday afternoon.

Mrs. FORD. I have forgotten, I couldn't say because it is important.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was it the American Civil Liberties Union?