Chapter VII: Part 7

Mr. SPECTER. Fine. What about the vehicle would you consider relevant in this regard?

Mr. KELLERMAN. The windshield itself, which I observed a day or two after the funeral here, had been hit by a piece of this missile or missiles, whatever it is, shell.

Mr. SPECTER. While you are referring to the windshield, permit me to hand you a photograph marked Commission Exhibit 349 and ask if you can tell us what that photograph depicts?

Mr. KELLERMAN. This photograph is the windshield of the Presidential special automobile that we used in Dallas on November 22. And it depicts a hit by some instrument on the metal railing that covers the windshield.

Mr. SPECTER. In what position is the hit on that metal railing?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Directly to the right of the mirror.

Mr. SPECTER. Is that on the top of the windshield?

Mr. KELLERMAN. That is on the top of the windshield. I am sorry; this is not the windshield itself; this is the top of the vehicle. This is the framework.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you draw a red arrow with the pen that you have to the mark which you have just described?

(Mr. Kellerman marked the photograph.)

Mr. SPECTER. Now, when did you first observe that indentation?

Mr. KELLERMAN. This was observed a day or two after the funeral, which funeral was the 25th of November; this would be upward of the 27th.

Mr. SPECTER. Where was the automobile at the time you observed that indentation?

Mr. KELLERMAN. At the White House garage, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Was the windshield in the automobile at that time?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir; it was in the automobile.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe or notice that indentation in the windshield when you were in Dallas after the shooting occurred?

Mr. KELLERMAN. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe or notice that indentation before the shooting occurred?

Mr. KELLERMAN. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Are you able to state positively whether or not that indentation was present before the shooting?

Mr. KELLERMAN. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. So that you observed it on the first occasion when you saw the car in the White House garage on or about November 27; is that correct?

Mr. KELLERMAN. That is correct, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. The indentation could conceivably have been present before the shooting?

Mr. KELLERMAN. It could have; yes.

Mr. SPECTER. But you didn't observe it before the shooting?

Mr. KELLERMAN. I did not.

Mr. SPECTER. And did you not observe it in Dallas after the shooting?

Mr. KELLERMAN. That is right; I did not.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you have any occasion to examine closely the windshield area after the assassination in Dallas?

Mr. KELLERMAN. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you have any occasion to examine closely the windshield at any time after the assassination until you saw the car in the garage on or about November 27?

Mr. KELLERMAN. No, sir; I have not.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you describe for the record where that indentation occurs or is placed?

Mr. KELLERMAN. This indentation is placed on the metal-bar framework which is across the top of the windshield. The indentation is directly to the right of the mirror holder.

Mr. SPECTER. Is that on the inside or the outside of the car?

Mr. KELLERMAN. This is on the inside of the car.

Representative FORD. What prompted you to make that investigation on or about November 27?

Mr. KELLERMAN. First, Mr. Congressman, I wanted to look this car over for--let me go back a little bit. When this car was checked over that night for its return to Washington, I was informed the following day of the pieces of these missiles that were found in the front seat, and I believe aside from the skull, that was in the rear seat, I couldn't conceive even from elevation how this shot hit President Kennedy like it did. I wanted to view this vehicle, whether this was a slant blow off the car, whether it hit the car first and then hit him, or what other marks are on this vehicle, and that is what prompted me to go around and check it over myself.

Representative FORD. Had anybody told you of this indentation prior to your own personal investigation?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Not of the windshield; no, sir.

Representative FORD. You were the first one to find this indentation?

Mr. KELLERMAN. I believe I am the first one who noticed this thing up on the bar.

Representative FORD. That is what I meant.

Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir.

Representative FORD. You are the first one to notice this particular indentation?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes; I believe I am, sir.

Representative FORD. All right.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you have occasion to examine the windshield or the framework closely before the assassination, either in Dallas or in Washington?

Mr. KELLERMAN. No; I honestly didn't.

Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Chairman, I move for the admission to evidence of Exhibit No. 349.

Representative FORD. It will be so admitted.

(The document referred to, heretofore marked Commission Exhibit No. 349 for identification, was received in evidence.)

Mr. SPECTER. Now I hand to Mr. Kellerman, through the Chairman, Commission Exhibit No. 350, and ask you to describe what this picture represents?

Mr. KELLERMAN. This picture represents the windshield of the President's special automobile as we are looking into it. This is an outside photo. My reason for this is that on inspection there is a--the windshield has been struck by an instrument and it has been cracked. This crack is opposite the mirror facing the driver would be toward the driver, to the right of the mirror, and----

Mr. SPECTER. The photograph, Exhibit 350, is from the outside of the car front looking toward the car; correct?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. What mark, if any, appears in the photograph on the windshield itself?

Mr. KELLERMAN. There is the cracked windshield located to the right of the mirror as you look into the automobile.

Mr. SPECTER. That would be on the driver's side, as you previously stated?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir; on the driver's side of the vehicle.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, is this picture an accurate representation of the appearance of the windshield at some time when you observed the windshield?

Mr. KELLERMAN. This windshield I observed on this same day.

Mr. SPECTER. On or about November 27, 1963?

Mr. KELLERMAN. That is correct.

Mr. SPECTER. Does that picture accurately represent what the windshield looked like on that day when you observed it?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir; it is.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe any crack in the windshield as the President's automobile was being driven from the point of assassination to the hospital?

Mr. KELLERMAN. I did not.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe it at any time prior to the time you saw the automobile in the White House garage on or before November 27?

Mr. KELLERMAN. I did not, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you have any occasion to examine closely the windshield after the time of the shooting up until the time you saw it in the White House garage?

Mr. KELLERMAN. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, at the time of your examination of the windshield in the White House garage, did you feel the windshield?

Mr. KELLERMAN. On the day that I visited the White House garage and checked this car over for my own personal reasons, and this windshield crack was pointed out to me, I did----

Mr. SPECTER. When you say it was pointed out to you, by whom?

Mr. KELLERMAN. There were other people in the garage, Mr. Specter, like Mr. Kinney, I believe was there at the time, Special Agent Henry Rybka was the other person.

Mr. SPECTER. Was it sufficiently prominent without having to have it pointed out specially?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Oh, yes; very much. And I felt this windshield both inwardly and outwardly to determine first if there was something that was struck from the back of us or--and I was satisfied that it was.

Mr. SPECTER. When you say struck from in back of you, do you mean on the inside or outside of the windshield?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Inside, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Inside of the car?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Right.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you have occasion to feel the outside of the windshield?

Mr. KELLERMAN. I did on that day; yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. What did you feel, if anything?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Not a thing; it was real smooth.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you have occasion to feel the inside of the windshield?

Mr. KELLERMAN. I did.

Mr. SPECTER. How did that feel to you?

Mr. KELLERMAN. My comparison was that the broken glass, broken windshield, there was enough little roughness in there from the cracks and split that I was positive, or it was my belief, that whatever hit it came into the inside of the car.

Mr. SPECTER. I move for the admission into evidence of Exhibit No. 350.

Representative FORD. It will be so admitted.

(The document referred to, heretofore marked Commission Exhibit No. 350 for identification, was received in evidence.)

Mr. SPECTER. I now call the attention of the Commission to Exhibit No. 351, which is the windshield itself which, as the Commission may observe, is present in the hearing room. Now, with reference to Exhibit No. 351, which is a marking placed over a glass object, Mr. Kellerman, can you describe for the Commission what that is?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes; this windshield, which has since been removed from the vehicle, at the time I first viewed it, this area marked in here was all that was cracked. These are later splints.

Mr. SPECTER. Before you proceed, Mr. Kellerman, do you have knowledge as to the general removal procedure during which this windshield was taken from the President's car?

Mr. KELLERMAN. I believe I do not. However, I believe Mr. Greer would be able to identify it better than I, on the removal side.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you describe the condition of the windshield in its present state as we are viewing it here this morning?

Mr. KELLERMAN. The windshield this morning has--has been hit by some object with sufficient force----

Mr. SPECTER. Perhaps we ought to start with the point of impact, Mr. Kellerman. First, are you able to positively identify this as the windshield from the President's automobile?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir; I would say it was, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Is this the same windshield as depicted in Exhibits 349 and 350?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. All right. Now, starting with the principal point of impact, where does that exist on this windshield?

Mr. KELLERMAN. The principal point of impact is located to the left of the mirror, to the right above the driver's head, and to the right of his, I am going to say, view line.

Mr. SPECTER. As we view the windshield at this time, state whether or not there are spidering lines which have emanated from that point which you have described as the principal point of impact?

Mr. KELLERMAN. The spidering lines which extend in three different directions--you are speaking of the large ones or the others?

Mr. SPECTER. Well, I want to put on this record all of the spidering lines which exist here.

Mr. KELLERMAN. OK; the spidering lines which are in this encircled area reflect, in my opinion, that when the instrument hit this glass it shattered in half a dozen different ways.

Mr. SPECTER. Well now, with respect to the cracks themselves, is there a crack which goes in a generally upwardly direction slanting off in the general direction of the driver?

Mr. KELLERMAN. In the center of this, the impact of the center of this scratch, one goes directly to the top of the windshield.

Mr. SPECTER. On that line itself, is there a further splintering off of that line at another point?

Mr. KELLERMAN. It then continues on a small leg, a straight leg, about 3 inches from the original direction.

Mr. SPECTER. And is there a change of direction at that point, or a bifurcation, dividing it into two parts?

Mr. KELLERMAN. No.

Mr. SPECTER. Well, you have described in a generally upwardly direction of about 3 inches?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And is there not a crack which then extends all the way to the top of the windshield moving, in the direction of the left side of the windshield from the driver facing it?

Mr. KELLERMAN. That is right. There is a complete crack from this so-called cutoff to the top right of the windshield right above the view line of the driver.

Mr. SPECTER. Taking that from a compass reading, would that be in a generally northeasterly direction?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir; northeasterly.

Mr. SPECTER. All right. From a point 3 inches from the center crack, which we described as the principal point of impact, then, does there form a point of crack in a V-direction with the line you have already described?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes; there does. There is a small splint, about 2 inches, that heads directly north off from this splinter that goes in a northeasterly direction.

Mr. SPECTER. All right. Now, moving in a clockwise direction.

Mr. KELLERMAN. In a clockwise direction.

Mr. SPECTER. What crack do you observe, if any?

Mr. KELLERMAN. I next observe on the eastward side of this center crack a splint of about 3 inches long, which then makes a sharp veer to the southeast to the bottom of the windshield.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, moving further in a clockwise direction, what crack do you next observe emanating from the central point of impact?

Mr. KELLERMAN. The next crack from the central point of impact extends down about 3 inches, to the southeast, and then veers to a sharp southeast to the bottom of the windshield.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, moving further in a clockwise direction.

Mr. KELLERMAN. From this point----

Mr. SPECTER. Let's continue to move from the central point of impact to finish up what divergent cracks there are from the central point of impact. Is there one other?

Mr. KELLERMAN. There is one other point left. This is completely in a westerly direction about 3 inches from the center of impact, which then veers to the northwest to the top of the windshield.

Mr. SPECTER. Are there other cracks in the windshield?

Mr. KELLERMAN. There is one other splint, which is from the southeasterly leg----

Mr. SPECTER. That would be southwesterly leg.

Mr. KELLERMAN. Southwesterly leg--I am sorry--that drops to within an inch of the bottom of the windshield, whereby another splint travels in a northwesterly direction to about halfway of the windshield.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, have you described all of the visible cracks in the windshield?

Mr. KELLERMAN. That has completed it, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. As you have viewed this windshield, have you looked at it from the outside looking in or the inside looking out?

Mr. KELLERMAN. I have been looking from the outside looking in.

Mr. SPECTER. Where you would have been if you had been, say, on the front hood of the car when the windshield was in place on the automobile?

Mr. KELLERMAN. I would have been--pardon?

Mr. SPECTER. On the hood of the car?

Mr. KELLERMAN. On the hood of the car this would have been facing me as it is sitting here today.

Mr. SPECTER. Have there been any measures taken to protect the outer edges of this windshield in its position here in the hearing room?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes. A form of protective tape has been placed around the entire windshield to protect it, to keep it intact.

Mr. SPECTER. Are there any differences in the cracks on the windshield today as it sits in our hearing room from its condition when you observed it on or about November 27, 1963?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir. From the point of impact the four cracks that looked in the four directions were the only ones on this windshield.

Mr. SPECTER. Is there any marking in color or otherwise on that piece of the windshield?

Mr. KELLERMAN. There has been a yellow crayon marking the circumference of these four cracks, apparently before the windshield was removed from the automobile.

Mr. SPECTER. Is that yellow or red?

Mr. KELLERMAN. It is red.

Mr. SPECTER. Were the cracks present within the circumference of that marking present at the time you observed the windshield on or about November 27?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Were any of the other marks present when you observed the windshield on or about November 27?

Mr. KELLERMAN. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you at this time feel the outside of the windshield and describe what, if anything, you feel at the point of impact?

Mr. KELLERMAN. The outside markings from the point of impact, the extended lines----

Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Kellerman. I would like for you at this time to actually touch the outside and tell me, first of all, if it is the same or if it differs in any way from the sense of feel which you noted when you touched it on or about November 27?

Mr. KELLERMAN. As I touch the outside on the impact, it would be the same as I noticed on the 27th of November.

Mr. SPECTER. What do you notice, if anything?

Mr. KELLERMAN. It is a smooth surface without any----

Mr. SPECTER. Without any--finish your answer.

Mr. KELLERMAN. On the inside.

Mr. SPECTER. No; before. It is a smooth surface without any what?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Without any crack lines.

Mr. SPECTER. On the outside?

Mr. KELLERMAN. That can be felt.

Mr. SPECTER. On the outside?

Mr. KELLERMAN. That is right; on the outside of the windshield.

Mr. SPECTER. Feel the inside and tell us, first of all, whether it is the same or different from the way you touched it on November 27?

Mr. KELLERMAN. On November 27, when I felt the inside of this impact area, I was convinced that I could--that I felt an opening in one of these lines, which was indicative to me that the blow was struck from the inside of the car on this windshield.

Mr. SPECTER. Does it feel the same to you today as it did on or about November 27?

Mr. KELLERMAN. As a matter of fact, it feels rather smooth today.

Mr. SPECTER. It feels somewhat differently today than it felt before?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes; it does.

Representative FORD. Could we ask when the red circle was placed on the windshield, if you know?

Mr. KELLERMAN. I do not know.

Mr. SPECTER. With respect to the shattering which existed on or about November 27, which is within the red circle, could that condition have existed on November 22 after the assassination?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Absolutely not. I don't think so.

Mr. SPECTER. What is the reason for your expressing your thought that it could not have existed?

Mr. KELLERMAN. This automobile is never out of sight of any agent, or even a police officer, before it is used--used or afterward. Let me clarify that. The agent that accompanied these cars to Dallas was with the vehicles from the time they left Washington aboard this plane. One of his many duties outside of keeping it, having this car run perfectly, is that all the equipment is in perfect condition.

Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Kellerman, what you are saying, then, is there had been no crack in the windshield prior to the time of the shooting?

Mr. KELLERMAN. That is correct.

Mr. SPECTER. My next question is: Did you observe any crack in the windshield after the shooting on November 22?

Mr. KELLERMAN. No.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you have any occasion to look for or examine for any crack in the windshield after the shooting?

Mr. KELLERMAN. I had no occasion whatsoever.

Mr. SPECTER. If the crack in the windshield had been as prominent as it was on or about November 27, 1963, would you have observed it after the shooting on November 22?

Mr. KELLERMAN. No, sir; I don't think I would have.

Senator COOPER. Is it correct then to say that you didn't find any occasion to examine the windshield after you heard the shots?

Mr. KELLERMAN. That is right, I did not have the opportunity.

Mr. SPECTER. And after the President was removed from the automobile, did you ever go back and examine the car, including the windshield?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Not in Dallas; no, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. To be absolutely certain our record is straight on this point, when you observed this windshield on or about November 27, 1963, was the windshield in or out of the car?

Mr. KELLERMAN. It was in the car. This was the same day they were going to remove it.

Mr. SPECTER. Did they remove it later that day, to your knowledge?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes; they did, and the mechanics were there.

Mr. SPECTER. Were you there at the time this was removed?

Mr. KELLERMAN. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. But the mechanics had arrived preparatory to removing it?

Mr. KELLERMAN. That is right.

Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Kellerman, we intended to describe the windshield in detail prior to your mentioning it, but to go back to your train of thought, you had brought up the windshield in response to my question about whether you had told us everything that you had in mind when you expressed the view that there were more than three shots. Now, remaining on the subject of the windshield, what fact about the windshield was important in your mind when you expressed the view that there must have been more than three shots?

Mr. KELLERMAN. I may be a little--I am not ahead of myself in your investigation of this case, but I think with the evidence that you all have on the numbers, on the pieces of evidence that were found in the car, plus the fact that you have a missile that was received from Dallas, from one of the stretchers, plus the fact of the missile that, to my knowledge, hasn't been removed from Governor Connally--it may have, I don't know--count up to more than three to me, gentlemen.

Mr. SPECTER. All right; fine. But focusing just a moment on the windshield in and of itself, is there any physical factor or characteristic of the windshield other than those already described for the record which has any bearing on your conclusion about the number of shots?

Mr. KELLERMAN. No; it does not.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, moving on to the other pieces of evidence which you have just described, you referred to pieces of evidence in the car. What did you mean when you made that reference, sir?

Mr. KELLERMAN. I have--I was told, although this is a hearsay thing----

Mr. SPECTER. For these purposes, please tell us whatever you are referring to, whatever its source, hearsay or not.

Mr. KELLERMAN. Okay; fine. That when they examined that vehicle that night, when it was brought back to Washington, D.C., two pieces of a bullet or bullets were found on the passenger side on the floor of the front seat.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe those?

Mr. KELLERMAN. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Who told you that, or what report?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Mr. Boring--Floyd Boring.

Mr. SPECTER. Who is Mr. Boring?

Mr. KELLERMAN. He is also an assistant special agent in charge.

Mr. SPECTER. Is he currently with the Secret Service?

Mr. KELLERMAN. He is currently with the Secret Service at the White House; yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Were those two pieces of bullet described with more particularity than you have mentioned?

Mr. KELLERMAN. No; they were not.

Mr. SPECTER. Were they described as fragments of bullets as distinguished from whole bullets?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Right, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. But do you have any information as to the size of the fragments?

Mr. KELLERMAN. No; I do not.

Mr. SPECTER. Are there any other pieces of evidence in the car that you were referring to there?

Mr. KELLERMAN. The only other piece of evidence in the car was President Kennedy's skull.

Mr. SPECTER. All right. Do you know what was done with those fragments that Mr. Boring told you about?

Mr. KELLERMAN. No; I don't.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you know whether or not those were turned over to the FBI?

Mr. KELLERMAN. I would say they were probably turned over to the FBI; yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. And why would you say they probably were?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Because they were assigned to going over the car.

Mr. SPECTER. Was it their procedure to turn over whatever they found to the FBI?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Oh, yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, is there anything special in the nature of the skull which you just mentioned which would have any bearing on the number of shots fired in this assassination?

Mr. KELLERMAN. No, but it would be one shell, one shot.

Mr. SPECTER. That would be your conclusion?

Mr. KELLERMAN. That would be my conclusion.

Mr. SPECTER. That it would take one shot to have separated that portion of skull?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. You mentioned a missile found on a stretcher in Dallas. Will you elaborate on what you were referring to there?

Mr. KELLERMAN. This was given, I believe, in your statements there, to a Special Agent Johnsen. I haven't seen this missile.

Mr. SPECTER. Are you referring there to the missile which was found on the stretcher and to the sequence of events from which it was traced back to one of the two victims of this shooting?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you have any more knowledge about that other than that which you have already mentioned?

Mr. KELLERMAN. No; I do not.

Mr. SPECTER. You mentioned a missile which was not removed from Governor Connally. Specifically, what did you refer to there?

Mr. KELLERMAN. There was in the early--this was on the day in Parkland Memorial Hospital, and this information comes from Dr. George Burkley, the President's physician, when, I believe, I asked him the condition of Governor Connally, and have they removed the bullet from him.

Mr. SPECTER. What did Dr. Burkley say?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Dr. Burkley said that to his knowledge he still has the bullet in him.

Mr. SPECTER. And at what time on November 22 was that?

Mr. KELLERMAN. This was after we got into the hospital after the shooting, sir, between then and 2 o'clock.

Mr. SPECTER. So that the operation on Governor Connally had not been completed at that point?

Mr. KELLERMAN. That is correct, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you have any additional knowledge about any bullet in Governor Connally?

Mr. KELLERMAN. I do not.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you now told us about all of the facts which you took into account in your conclusion that there were more than three shots?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you have anything to add, Mr. Kellerman, by way of explanation or elaboration, to tell us which might be helpful with respect to your conclusion based on all of these items which you have described to us that there were more than three shots?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Gentlemen, I think if you would view the films yourself you may come up with a little different answer.

Mr. SPECTER. Well, have you viewed the films, Mr. Kellerman?

Mr. KELLERMAN. I have; yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Was there something special in your viewing of the films which led you to believe that there were more than three shots?

Mr. KELLERMAN. No; it doesn't point out more than three shots, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Which films are you referring to?

Mr. KELLERMAN. These are the colored ones that were taken on the right side.

Mr. SPECTER. Taken by Mr. Abraham Zapruder?

Mr. KELLERMAN. I don't know.

Mr. SPECTER. You are not familiar with the photographer?

Mr. KELLERMAN. No; I am not.

Mr. SPECTER. Well, can you describe the view you say is from the right-hand side of the automobile?

Mr. KELLERMAN. That is right.

Mr. SPECTER. So that would be on the side of the road where the Texas School Book Depository Building was?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. And approximately where did those pictures begin and end?

Mr. KELLERMAN. These pictures began as we turned off Houston Street onto Elm.

Mr. SPECTER. And where did they end?

Mr. KELLERMAN. As we are, just before we are, going into the viaduct.

Mr. SPECTER. Were those black and white or in color?

Mr. KELLERMAN. No; they were colored.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you seen any other films of the assassination?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes; I saw a black-and-white, but I didn't--I saw a black-and-white film. However, I didn't get enough out of it there to----

Mr. SPECTER. Before proceeding any further, I would like to move for the introduction in evidence of Exhibit 351.

Representative FORD. It is approved.

(The windshield referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 351 for identification and was received in evidence.)

Mr. SPECTER. Do you have anything at all to add which you think might be helpful, Mr. Kellerman, on the question of how many shots were fired, or have you told us everything you have in mind on that question?

Mr. KELLERMAN. I believe I have, Mr. Specter.

Senator COOPER. What was the name of the special agent driving the car--the President's car?

Mr. KELLERMAN. William Greer.

Senator COOPER. He was the one to whom you spoke when you heard the report?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir.

Senator COOPER. Has he ever expressed any opinion to you as to the number of shots that were fired?

Mr. KELLERMAN. No, sir. I think we are all of the opinion, Senator, that we know of three.

Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Kellerman, referring to Commission Exhibit No. 347, will you pinpoint as precisely as you can on that aerial shot, aerial picture, where the President's car was at the time of the first shot? And mark that, if you would, please, with an "X" in red pencil.

Mr. KELLERMAN. My guess would be right in here, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, would you mark as closely as you can where the President's car was at the time of the second shot and mark that with a "Y" in red.

(Mr. Kellerman marking the picture.)

Mr. SPECTER. Now, you have marked the cars being in approximately the middle of the road; is that accurate, as you recollect it?

Mr. KELLERMAN. That is the general procedure, Mr. Specter; they were traveling in the center of the road.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, with respect to the time of the third shot, would your marking be any different from the "Y" position?

Mr. KELLERMAN. No; it would not.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, from the time of the shooting until the time the automobile arrived at Parkland Hospital, did anyone in the President's car say anything that you have not already told us about?

Mr. KELLERMAN. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Kellerman, there is a report from the Federal Bureau of Investigation designated "Bureau File No. 105"--I believe there is an "S", although it is somewhat illegible on my copy--"S2555, report of Special Agent Robert P. Gemberling," dated December 10, 1963, which refers to an interview of you by Special Agent Francis X. O'Neill, Jr., and James W. Sibert, in which the following is set forth:

"He"--and this obviously refers to you--"advised that he heard a shot and immediately turned around looking past Governor Connally who was seated directly in back of him, to the President. He observed the President slumped forward and heard him say 'get me to a hospital.' Mr. Kellerman then heard Mrs. Kennedy say, 'Oh, no,' as the President leaned toward her." That is the end of the quotation. My question is: Did you hear him; did you hear President Kennedy say, "Get me to a hospital"?

Mr. KELLERMAN. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you hear Mrs. Kennedy say, "Oh, no"?

Mr. KELLERMAN. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you have any knowledge or explanation as to why you would have been so quoted in the report of the FBI?

Mr. KELLERMAN. When these two gentlemen talked to me, I don't know where they got those quotes, because the only two things that I told them, they were interested in what I heard from the people in the back seat, and one said "my God, I have been hit," which was President Kennedy, and Mrs. Kennedy said, "What are they doing to you?"

Mr. SPECTER. You were interviewed, however, by Mr. O'Neill and Mr. Sibert on November 22, 1963?

Mr. KELLERMAN. November what?

Mr. SPECTER. November 22.

Mr. KELLERMAN. No. November 22 is when they were in the morgue with me. They interviewed me in the office that--it was around the 27th. This was after the funeral.

Mr. SPECTER. Did they have any conversation with you about these events in the morgue?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Not that I recall, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you have a discussion with either of those gentlemen about anything while you were at the morgue on November 22?

Mr. KELLERMAN. The only thing I can recall discussionwise--I just forget which one it was, one of the two--this was before we even knew that a shell had been found from the hole in the President's shoulder. We couldn't determine what happened to it. They couldn't find it in the morgue; they couldn't find any leeway as to whatever happened to the shell when it hit the President's shoulder; where did it go. So our contention was that while he was on the stretcher in Dallas, and the neurosurgeon was working over him no doubt with pressure on the heart, this thing worked itself out.

Mr. SPECTER. When you say "our contention," what do you mean by that?

Mr. KELLERMAN. One of these agents--I forget which one it was; it could have been Sibert or O'Neill, but I am not sure.

Mr. SPECTER. Did what?

Mr. KELLERMAN. We--our discussion or my discussion.

Mr. SPECTER. You had a discussion and when you say "our contention" by that do you mean that was the conclusion you came to?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Conclusion--that is right, sir--as to where this bullet went into the shoulder and where did it go.

Mr. SPECTER. While you are on that subject, was there any conversation at the time of the autopsy on that matter itself?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Very much so.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you relate to the Commission the nature of that conversation and the parties to it?

Mr. KELLERMAN. There were three gentlemen who were performing this autopsy. A Colonel Finck--during the examination of the President, from the hole that was in his shoulder, and with a probe, and we were standing right alongside of him, he is probing inside the shoulder with his instrument and I said, "Colonel, where did it go?" He said, "There are no lanes for an outlet of this entry in this man's shoulder."

Mr. SPECTER. Did you say anything in response to that?

Mr. KELLERMAN. I said, "Colonel, would it have been possible that while he was on the stretcher in Dallas that it works itself out?" And he said, "Yes."

Mr. SPECTER. Was there any additional conversation between you and Colonel Finck at that time?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Not on that point; no, sir; not on that point.

Mr. SPECTER. Was there any conversation of any sort between you and Colonel Finck which would be helpful to us here?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Well, from Humes, who was the other gentleman out there, from the entry of the skull, from this hole here.

Mr. SPECTER. You are now referring to the hole which you describe being below the missing part of the skull?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir; it was confirmed that the entry of the shell here went right through the top and removed that piece of the skull.

Mr. SPECTER. And who confirmed that?

Mr. KELLERMAN. One of the three gentlemen; I don't recall.

Mr. SPECTER. You don't recall which one, but it was one of the three doctors doing the autopsy?

Mr. KELLERMAN. That is right.

Mr. SPECTER. So you are saying it confirmed that the hole that was below the piece of skull that was removed, was the point of entry of the one bullet which then passed up through the head and took off the skull?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Right, sir. That is correct.

Mr. SPECTER. Then that was all done by one bullet, based on what you are telling us at this moment?

Mr. KELLERMAN. That is right.

Mr. SPECTER. From the confirmation that one of the three doctors made?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, was there any other conversation between you and Colonel Finck or Commander Humes----

Mr. KELLERMAN. No.

Mr. SPECTER. At that time, which was important on the subject we are discussing?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Actually, from all the X-rays that were taken, and we viewed them all together; when I say "we," I am saying the medical people who were in the morgue at the time, the two Bureau agents, myself, and also Mr. Greer, who was in there with me, naturally, they were looking for pieces of fragmentation of this bullet. There was none; only one piece to my knowledge. That was removed inside above the eye, the right eye.

Mr. SPECTER. You have now told us all about the conversations between you and Colonel Finck and Commander Humes and anyone else at the autopsy which are important on the positions of the hole and the wounds in the head?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Right, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you have any other conversation with either Special Agent O'Neill or Special Agent Sibert of the FBI on November 22, 1963, other than your conversations about the wounds on President Kennedy?

Mr. KELLERMAN. No.

Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Kellerman, while we are discussing this in relationship to your conversations with Special Agents O'Neill and Sibert, were there any other comments made by anybody else present at the autopsy about the path of the bullet into Mr. Kennedy's back, relating to whether there was any point of exit or anything of that sort?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Colonel Finck did all the talking, sir. He was the only one.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, have you told us everything Colonel Finck said about that subject?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Very much so; yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. So that there is nothing that was said on that subject other than what you have already told us about?

Mr. KELLERMAN. No; that is right.

Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Kellerman, I have read to you a part of what Special Agents O'Neill and Sibert have attributed to you in an interview which they have written about on November 22, 1963. Referring to that in the portion which I have read to you and which I will reread, I want you to direct your attention to the issue about which way you turned. The report states, "He advised he heard a shot and immediately turned around looking past Governor Connally who was seated directly in back of him to the President."

Now, did that describe a turn to the right or to the left? This is a difficult question. Let me interject one thing. We are presupposing here, based on your testimony, that you did not discuss with Special Agents O'Neill or Sibert these specific events on November 22, to the best of your recollection as we sit here today.

Mr. KELLERMAN. That is right.

Mr. SPECTER. So that the question really goes to a situation where perhaps they have an inaccurate day or your recollection is inaccurate as to some of the things you might have told them. So, my prefatory question would be whether that is an accurate statement and is something you told them at some time.

Mr. KELLERMAN. I don't believe I did. I think I will stand on my original statement.

Representative FORD. The original statement you made here today?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir; very much.

Mr. SPECTER. So that the statement I just read to you, so far as your best----

Mr. KELLERMAN. I can't----

Mr. SPECTER. So far as your best testimony is at this time, it was simply not made by you on November 22?

Mr. KELLERMAN. That is right, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. All right, now. Was that statement I just read to you, the short one about your turn, to the best of your recollection at this moment, did you ever make that statement to Special Agents O'Neill and/or Sibert?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Mr. Specter, everybody I have talked to I have always turned to the right when I first heard the noise. I turned to my left to view the people in my back seat because it is a more comfortable position. So I don't think the turning is correct, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you say the report is incorrect?

Mr. KELLERMAN. That is right.

Representative FORD. May I ask--you have viewed these colored motion pictures which were taken during the assassination. Have you looked at those to see what your own actions were during this period of time?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir.

Representative FORD. Do they coincide with what you have testified to here today?

Mr. KELLERMAN. They certainly do.

Mr. SPECTER. I now hand you a photograph marked Commission Exhibit No. 352, and ask you if you can tell us what that picture represents?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir; this was the rear seat of the President's car, sir, after all the occupants were removed.

Mr. SPECTER. And when did the rear seat of the President's car look like the picture 352?

Mr. KELLERMAN. After all the occupants were removed on the 22d of November.

Mr. SPECTER. When the car was parked at Parkland Hospital?

Mr. KELLERMAN. I don't know where this picture was taken, sir. This could have been taken in the White House garage.

Mr. SPECTER. Yes; but aside from where the picture was taken, is that the way the car looked at the time it was at Parkland Hospital after President Kennedy and Governor Connally were removed from the car?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you describe for the written record very briefly what this picture shows?

Mr. KELLERMAN. The picture shows the complete rear seat of the Presidential limousine.

Mr. SPECTER. What, if anything, is on the rear seat?

Mr. KELLERMAN. On the seat part of this car is splattered with blood; there are a few petals of flowers, and the back seat cushion part is pretty well bloodied up.

Mr. SPECTER. I move for the introduction in evidence of Commission Exhibit No. 352.

Representative FORD. So admitted.

(The photograph referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 352 for identification, and received in evidence.)

Mr. SPECTER. I now hand you, through the Chairman, Commission Exhibit No. 353, move its admission into evidence, and ask you to tell us what this depicts.

Mr. KELLERMAN. This is the same Presidential vehicle after the occupants have been removed from the rear seat. It shows the--a goodly amount of blood that had remained on the cushion and back part of the seat and also little flower petals.

Mr. SPECTER. Is Exhibit No. 353 an accurate representation of the way the rear seat of the President's automobile looked after----

Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. After President Kennedy and Governor Connally were removed to Parkland Hospital.

Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir; it is.

Mr. SPECTER. You have described in answers to previous questions what occurred upon the arrival at Parkland of the President's automobile. What action, if any, did you take immediately after President Kennedy and Governor Connally were taken into the hospital?

Mr. KELLERMAN. I believe we had got to the point where I had made this phone call to Washington to alert these people back here of the incident.

Mr. SPECTER. And proceeding from that point?

Mr. KELLERMAN. From this point, the agents who were in this followup car had joined me in the emergency room. They took up security posts at entrance into the emergency room to keep it clear of all people except medical people. The only people allowed in there would be workers. After this was done, Special Agent Kinney came to me and asked permission to remove the President's car and our followup car to the airport, to load it aboard this aircraft for shipment to Washington, and I said, "Yes."

At that time the next move was Special Agent Warren Taylor, who was assigned to the then Vice President Johnson, came to me and he said, "Mr. Johnson wants to talk to you." So, I followed him into this room that they had the Johnson party in. He asked me the condition of President Kennedy, which I told him that President Kennedy is still in the emergency room, his condition is serious. He then said, "You let me know of any developments."

I then returned to the emergency room. By that time another shift of agents, who were at the Trade Mart on duty for prior to our arrival, reported into the emergency room. This is what is called as our afternoon shift, the 4 to 12. Mr. Roberts, whose group was on the followup car in the motorcade through Dallas, was the 8-to-4 shift. The 4-to-12 shift then was under the supervision of Mr. Stewart Stout. I then instructed Mr. Roberts to take his shift, which were the day people, and join Special Agent Rufus Youngblood and stay with Vice President Johnson.

Mr. SPECTER. How many agents were they to take with them?

Mr. KELLERMAN. They took the entire followup car, which would mean that they had Roberts, Ready, Bennett, McIntyre; those four.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you know where they went or what specifically they did by way of establishing security for Vice President Johnson?

Mr. KELLERMAN. No; I really don't.

Mr. SPECTER. What was your next activity?

Mr. KELLERMAN. My next move, then, my next part in this was--by this time it was after 1 o'clock--I am trying to pinpoint time--after 1, because Dr. Burkley said that the President had died; it was after 1 o'clock. By this time other people who were in with Mr. Kennedy, such as his staff--I am speaking of Mr. O'Donnell, Mr. Powers, I believe Larry O'Brien--through them, and I believe Mr. Hill, they had obtained a casket from one of the funeral people in town.

Mr. SPECTER. Where had Mrs. Kennedy been during this time?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Mrs. Kennedy was right outside the door to the emergency room.

Mr. SPECTER. How long, if at all, was she inside the emergency room with President Kennedy?

Mr. KELLERMAN. This I can't truly answer. However, I should say that, as for the casket being brought into the hospital, another gentleman came into this little doctor's room, his name I don't recall, but he represented himself to be from the Health Department or commission, some form. He said to me, he said, "There has been a homicide here, you won't be able to remove the body. We will have to take it down there to the mortuary and have an autopsy." I said, "No, we are not." And he said, "We have a law here whereby you have to comply with it."

With that Dr. Burkley walked in, and I said, "Doctor, this man is from some health unit in town. He tells me we can't remove this body." The Doctor became a little enraged; he said, "We are removing it." He said, "This is the President of the United States and there should be some consideration in an event like this." And I told this gentleman, I said, "You are going to have to come up with something a little stronger than you to give me the law that this body can't be removed."

So, he frantically called everybody he could think of and he hasn't got an answer; nobody is home. Shortly he leaves this little room and it seems like a few minutes he is back and he has another gentleman with him, and he said, "This is"--the name escapes me--he said, "He is a judge here in Dallas," and he said, "He will tell you whether you can remove this body or not." I said, "It doesn't make any difference. We are going to move it," and I said, "Judge, do you know who I am?"

And he said, "Yes," and I said, "There must be something in your thinking here that we don't have to go through this agony; the family doesn't have to go through this. We will take care of the matter when we get back to Washington." The poor man looked at me and he said, "I know who you are," and he said, "I can't help you out." I said, "All right, sir." But then I happened to look to the right and I can see the casket coming on rollers, and I just left the room and let it out through the emergency entrance and we got to the ambulance and put it in, shut the door after Mrs. Kennedy and General McHugh and Clinton Hill in the rear part of this ambulance.

I am looking around for Mr. Greer and I don't spot him directly because I want to get out of here in a hurry, and I recognize Agent Berger and I said, "Berger, you get in the front seat and drive and, Mr. Stout, you get in the middle and I will set on this side," and as we are leaving--Mr. Lawson, I should say, was in a police car that led us away from Parkland Memorial Hospital. As we are leaving a gentleman taps on the driver's window and they roll it down and he says, "I will meet you at the mortuary." "Yes, sir." We went to the airport, gentlemen.

Mr. SPECTER. Who said, "Yes, sir"?

Mr. KELLERMAN. I did, sir. We went to the airport. In the meantime, Mr. Johnson had been taken to the airplane. They had secured the airport; nobody was there. They had removed seats off the rear part of the plane so we could put the body and the casket in it. As we got to the airport the ramp was there; we opened the door, and we moved the casket out and walked it right up to the plane.

Mr. SPECTER. Was there any further difficulty of any sort----

Mr. KELLERMAN. No.

Mr. SPECTER. Imposed by any Texas officials on the removal of the body?

Mr. KELLERMAN. No, sir. Whatever happened to the hearse, I don't know. I never left the plane.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe----

Mr. KELLERMAN. We left the hospital; we have a time on that; it is 4 minutes after 2. It is about a 10-minute ride to the airplane.

Mr. SPECTER. On the question of timing, pinning down these times as best we can, how long did it take you to get from the shooting incident to the time you arrived at Parkland, based on your best estimates?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Mr. Specter, it seemed like hours, but we flew there, I honestly don't know. I can't really tell you.

Mr. SPECTER. What is the best estimate of the speed of your vehicle en route from the shooting to the hospital?

Mr. KELLERMAN. I don't know.

Senator COOPER. Let the record show that Congressman Ford has to go to his official duties in the House and that I, Senator Cooper, am now acting as Chairman.

(At this point, Representative Ford left the hearing room.)

Senator COOPER. Go ahead.

Mr. SPECTER. Moving ahead, then, on to the sequences of time as best you can recollect them, Mr. Kellerman, at what time was it ascertained that the President had died and what was the basis of the pronouncement of death.

Mr. KELLERMAN. That was on the death certificate, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you learn at or about 1 o'clock, while you were at Parkland Hospital, that he had died?

Mr. KELLERMAN. I would think so. However, at that time let me say that I wasn't watching any clock too closely and this time was given to me by Dr. Burkley.

Mr. SPECTER. Then you have no independent recollection of time at Parkland when the death was announced or pronounced?

Mr. KELLERMAN. No.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, then, you have specified the time of departure from Parkland Hospital and en route back to Love Field at what, sir?

Mr. KELLERMAN. We departed at 4 minutes after 2 from Parkland.

Mr. SPECTER. What time did you arrive at the President's plane?

Mr. KELLERMAN. 2:14.

Mr. SPECTER. What were your next activities?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Our next time, we had waited until Judge Sarah Hughes had arrived for the swearing-in ceremonies.

Mr. SPECTER. What time did the swearing-in ceremonies occur?

Mr. KELLERMAN. 2:37 p.m.

Mr. SPECTER. And what time did the plane depart from Dallas?

Mr. KELLERMAN. We left at 2:48.

Mr. SPECTER. Were you present during the swearing-in ceremonies?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. In a general way, tell us who else was present there, recognizing that you don't know all the people there.

Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes. President Johnson, Mrs. Johnson, Mrs. Kennedy, Malcolm Kilduff. He was the press secretary for that trip. Congressman Thornberry, Congressman Thomas, Marie Fehmer, Mrs. Evelyn Lincoln, Jack Valenti, Bill Moyers, Special Agent Johns. There was another congressional man--I believe his name was Congressman Roberts--Brooks; I am sorry; Congressman Brooks. The picture was taken by Capt. Cecil Stoughton and myself.

Mr. SPECTER. What time did the President's plane arrive back at the Washington area?

Mr. KELLERMAN. May I look at my notes, sir?

Mr. SPECTER. Yes, you may. Identify for us, if you will, what notes you are referring to.

Mr. KELLERMAN. 5:58 p.m. This is my report.