Chapter XV: Part 15

Mr. WORRELL. Chief Curry was making a plea for anyone who had seen the shooting, would they please come down and make a statement. So I called the Farmer Branch police, and told them, and they come and picked me up, and they called the Dallas police, and they come way out there and picked me up and took me downtown to make a statement and brought me back home.

Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Worrell, before we leave this Exhibit 361, are you able to testify as to the accuracy of the scale drawing here which represents the part of it that you have testified about, specifically the presence of the Texas School Book Depository Building on the northwest corner of Elm and Houston. Is that the accurate location of that building?

Mr. WORRELL. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. And is it an accurate reproduction of the intersection of Elm and Houston leading into the parkway on Elm Street?

Mr. WORRELL. As far as this?

Mr. SPECTER. Yes.

Mr. WORRELL. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. As far as all the parts you have testified about Elm and Houston. Is it accurate that Pacific is one block in the northerly direction away from Elm Street?

Mr. WORRELL. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. And Ross is another block, generally, in a northerly direction away from Pacific?

Mr. WORRELL. No, Ross is over here. This is Record Street.

Mr. SPECTER. Well, first there is Elm, then there is Pacific, and then there is Ross. Is that much accurate as the map shows it to be, is that the way the streets are laid out?

Mr. WORRELL. I think so.

Mr. SPECTER. How about the general width of Houston Street in relation to the general width of the Texas School Depository Building, is that about right?

Mr. WORRELL. I don't know, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. All right, that is fine.

At the same time that we have marked Exhibit 361, Mr. Chairman, I would like to use the next number in sequence, No. 362 to mark the other half of this same exhibit which is designated Texas School Book Depository floor plan of the first floor, which we will not use at this time, but I would like to mark it in sequence.

And at this time I ask that Commission Exhibits Nos. 359, 360, 361, and 362 be admitted into evidence.

Senator COOPER. So ordered. Let those exhibits be admitted as part of the evidence.

(The documents referred to, heretofore marked Commission Exhibits Nos. 359, 360, 361, and 362 were admitted into evidence.)

Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Worrell, you had told us that you heard a plea by Chief of Police Curry for all witnesses to come forward.

Mr. WORRELL. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. And you heard that plea on the 23d of November?

Mr. WORRELL. It was on Saturday.

Mr. SPECTER. What action, if any, did you take in response to that request?

Mr. WORRELL. I called on the phone to the Farmers Branch police.

Mr. SPECTER. You called who?

Mr. WORRELL. The Farmers Branch police.

Mr. SPECTER. I see. And what did you do then?

Mr. WORRELL. Well, I told them what I had seen and they said, "Well, stay there and we will come and get you."

Mr. SPECTER. Did they come and get you?

Mr. WORRELL. Oh, yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you then tell the police what you had seen and heard?

Mr. WORRELL. I told a Lt. Butler what I had seen, and I don't know if--they placed the call into the Dallas police and something like an hour later they came to pick me up there.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you make a statement or take an affidavit on what you had seen and heard?

Mr. WORRELL. To the Dallas police?

Mr. SPECTER. Yes.

Mr. WORRELL. Oh, yes, sir. I made a statement and signed five of them.

Mr. SPECTER. I will show you a paper which is marked Commission Exhibit 363 which purports to be an affidavit bearing your signature.

Mr. WORRELL. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Let me ask you first of all if that is your signature?

Mr. WORRELL. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. And would you take just a minute, take your time and read that affidavit over, please.

Have you had a chance to read that over, Mr. Worrell?

Mr. WORRELL. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you tell us that you signed five different statements or five copies of the same statement?

Mr. WORRELL. Five copies of the same statement.

Mr. SPECTER. Is this the statement which you signed in affidavit form at that time?

Mr. WORRELL. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. And----

Mr. WORRELL. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. As you have just--have you had time to read it over just now?

Mr. WORRELL. Oh, yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Is that statement accurate based on your current recollection of the event?

Mr. WORRELL. It is accurate down to, well, I changed my height to 5-8 from 5-7.

Mr. SPECTER. Aside from that minor variation, is it accurate in its entirety; that is, is it all accurate?

Mr. WORRELL. Well, I left out, when I was making my affidavit, I left out, while I was running I heard a gun fire two more times. Well, as I told you, I was turning the corner when I heard it and saw it fire the third time, and then the fourth.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, are there any other additions or modifications that you would like to make from the contents of your statement in accordance with your recollection at this moment?

Mr. WORRELL. I can't verify that--the time they got here because I am not too sure of that.

Mr. SPECTER. You are not sure of that now?

Mr. WORRELL. No.

Mr. SPECTER. All right.

Are there any other modifications that you would want to make in the contents of the statement?

Mr. WORRELL. Leave out firecracker. It sounded, it was too loud for a firecracker.

Mr. SPECTER. Your current recollection is that it was too loud for a firecracker?

Mr. WORRELL. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Is there any other respect in which your current recollection differs from this affidavit?

Mr. WORRELL. Instead of looking I ran, I looked up.

Mr. SPECTER. Is there any other respect in which your current recollection differs from the affidavit?

Mr. WORRELL. Well, I left out on the barrel of the rifle, I left out part of the stock. I didn't recollect that at that time.

Mr. SPECTER. Is there any other aspect in which your current recollection differs from the facts set forth in this affidavit?

Mr. WORRELL. Well, everything else is O.K.

Mr. SPECTER. What is your best estimate as to the length of time between the first shot and the last shot which you heard?

Mr. WORRELL. The best estimate 5, 6 seconds.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you talked to, been interviewed by or given a statement to any Federal agent?

Mr. WORRELL. The FBI down at Dallas.

Mr. SPECTER. How many times have you seen the FBI agents?

Mr. WORRELL. Once.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you recollect the names of the agents you saw?

Mr. WORRELL. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you recollect when it was that you saw those agents?

Mr. WORRELL. It was on that Saturday, the 23d.

Mr. SPECTER. And where were you when you saw them?

Mr. WORRELL. In the Dallas Police Station.

Mr. SPECTER. How long did that interview last?

Mr. WORRELL. Thirty minutes.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you sign a statement for them?

Mr. WORRELL. I just signed it for the Dallas police. They didn't have me sign anything.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you been interviewed by any other Federal agent or representative?

Mr. WORRELL. Well, Mr. Sorrels interviewed me when he called me and asked me some questions when he called me up Wednesday night, I guess it was.

Mr. SPECTER. Was that in relationship to your coming here to this Commission hearing?

Mr. WORRELL. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. What sort of questions did Mr. Sorrels ask you?

Mr. WORRELL. What I saw. And I told him.

Mr. SPECTER. Was that just on the telephone?

Mr. WORRELL. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. How long did that conversation last?

Mr. WORRELL. Not very long. He talked to my mother first. He talked to her for 15 minutes, something like this.

Mr. SPECTER. Was he talking to her about what you saw or about travel arrangements to get you here?

Mr. WORRELL. I don't know. I was watching television, I didn't know even who she was talking to.

Mr. SPECTER. All right. Aside from that conversation with Mr. Sorrels and the interview you have had with the FBI, have you ever talked with any agent or representative of the Federal Government.

Mr. WORRELL. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you talked to any police official of Dallas or the State of Texas after you gave this affidavit?

Mr. WORRELL. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Based on seeing only the back of this man, were you ever able to make any identification of him?

Mr. WORRELL. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Chairman, I move for the admission into evidence of the other exhibit which we have used with Mr. Worrell being Commission Exhibit No. 362.

Senator COOPER. The exhibit will be admitted to evidence.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 362 for identification and received in evidence.)

Mr. SPECTER. That concludes our questions.

Senator COOPER. You stated that, I believe, you looked up after you had heard the first report?

Mr. WORRELL. Yes, sir.

Senator COOPER. You looked up and saw the barrel of a rifle, and then the rifle fired. What made you know that it fired?

Mr. WORRELL. Pardon?

Senator COOPER. How did you know it was fired when you were looking at it?

Mr. WORRELL. Well, I saw what you might call a little flame and smoke.

Senator COOPER. You saw something that came out of the barrel?

Mr. WORRELL. Yes, sir.

Senator COOPER. Were you looking at it when you heard the third report?

Mr. WORRELL. Yes, sir, looking at it, turning around and started to run.

Senator COOPER. Did you see anything then?

Mr. WORRELL. Same thing, a little flash of fire and then smoke. I didn't see it on the fourth one.

Senator COOPER. Did you only look at the car in which the President was riding one time when you said you saw him slump?

Mr. WORRELL. Yes, sir.

Senator COOPER. Did you look back at the President's car then?

Mr. WORRELL. No, sir. I didn't do that because I mean I didn't know if there was one or more guns, because I wondered why if it was in such rapid succession being a bolt action, I found out later, and I didn't know what was coming off, so I was running to the back of the building because I figured that would be the safest place.

Senator COOPER. Did you see anyone in the windows, in the Texas Depository Building?

Mr. WORRELL. No, sir.

Senator COOPER. Did you notice where this man you have described later as running away from the building, did you see him come out of the building?

Mr. WORRELL. Yes, sir.

Senator COOPER. Where?

Mr. WORRELL. At the back entrance. Approximately where I put the mark "Z."

Senator COOPER. Was he running all the time you saw him?

Mr. WORRELL. Yes, sir, he sure was.

Senator COOPER. That is all.

Mr. WRIGHT. Prior to hearing the first shot, had you looked up at the School Book Depository Building?

Mr. WORRELL. No, sir; I sure didn't.

Mr. WRIGHT. That is all.

Mr. SPECTER. Were you able to observe the direction of the barrel which you have described?

Mr. WORRELL. Pointing right down at the motorcade.

Mr. SPECTER. Any special part of the motorcade?

Mr. WORRELL. I mean, I couldn't really say that because it was too high up and he could have been pointing at anyone of the cars. I mean I couldn't tell from where I was standing.

Mr. SPECTER. Was it on the part of the motorcade which had turned down Elm Street or on the part of the motorcade that was still on Houston or what?

Mr. WORRELL. It was the part that was turned down Elm Street.

Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Worrell, we have a report of the Federal Bureau of Investigation which contains a purported interview with you, designated as report of Robert P. Gemberling dated November 30, 1963, which has this statement:

"He"--referring to you--"stated that last night when he saw photographs of Lee Harvey Oswald on television he felt this was the person he had seen running away from the building. He stated this person did not look back but he was certain this was a white person since he had a profile view."

My question, first of all, to you: Did you have a profile view of the man who ran away from the building that you described?

Mr. WORRELL. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. The second question is, did you tell the FBI that you had a profile view?

Mr. WORRELL. No, sir, I sure didn't.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you tell the FBI agent who interviewed you, that you felt that this person was Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mr. WORRELL. I don't know if I did or not.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you see anyone else leave the building, that is the Texas School Book Depository Building, except the man you have already described to us?

Mr. WORRELL. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. I have no further questions, Mr. Chairman.

Senator COOPER. Are there any further questions? I believe we will stand in recess until 2 o'clock.

(Whereupon, at 1:10 p.m., the President's Commission recessed.)

Afternoon Session

TESTIMONY OF AMOS LEE EUINS

The President's Commission reconvened at 2:15 p.m.

The CHAIRMAN. The Commission will come to order.

Amos, will you stand up, please, and raise your right hand?

Do you solemnly swear the testimony you will give before this Commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. EUINS. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. You may be seated. How old are you?

Mr. EUINS. Sixteen.

The CHAIRMAN. All right.

Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Chief Justice, should we start by reading the purpose?

The CHAIRMAN. Yes. I think you received a copy of this statement. But I just want to say to you that the purpose of today's hearing is to hear the testimony of Arnold Louis Rowland, James Richard Worrell, Robert H. Jackson, and yourself who were in the vicinity of the assassination scene on November 22, 1963. The Commission proposes to ask you facts concerning your knowledge of the assassination of President Kennedy.

You understand that?

Mr. EUINS. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. All right.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you tell us your full name for the record, please?

Mr. EUINS. Amos Lee Euins.

Mr. SPECTER. What is your exact date of birth, Amos?

Mr. EUINS. January 10, 1948.

Mr. SPECTER. January 10, 1948?

Mr. EUINS. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. And are you a school boy at the present time?

Mr. EUINS. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. What school do you go to?

Mr. EUINS. Franklin D. Roosevelt.

Mr. SPECTER. What grade are you in at that school?

Mr. EUINS. The ninth.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you live with your parents, Amos?

Mr. EUINS. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. How is your health generally?

Mr. EUINS. I guess it is all right.

Mr. SPECTER. How are your eyes?

Mr. EUINS. They are all right.

Mr. SPECTER. Can you see good at a distance?

Mr. EUINS. Yes, I can see good at a distance, but I can't see at real close range.

Mr. SPECTER. Are you able to read without glasses?

Mr. EUINS. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. You don't use glasses for any purposes, then?

Mr. EUINS. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. When you say you have trouble at close range, just what do you mean by that?

Mr. EUINS. You know, like I put something on real close.

Mr. SPECTER. Indicating about 4 or 5 inches from your eyes?

Mr. EUINS. Yes, sir. And then they kind of get dim. But on a long scene, I can see good.

Mr. SPECTER. How are your grades in school, Amos?

Mr. EUINS. They are all right.

Mr. SPECTER. Are they better than average, or what?

Mr. EUINS. They are about average.

Mr. SPECTER. All right.

Going back to November 22, 1963, that is last year, Amos, do you recall what you were doing early on that morning?

Mr. EUINS. Yes, sir. When I first got up, I went to school. Then about 11:30, well, the teachers called us and told us the ones that wanted to go downtown to see the President come down to the office and get an excuse and they could go. So I went down to the office, and I got an excuse, so I went downtown.

Mr. SPECTER. And what time did you leave school?

Mr. EUINS. 11:30.

Mr. SPECTER. And where did you go from your school?

Mr. EUINS. Downtown.

Mr. SPECTER. What part of downtown?

Mr. EUINS. Right over by the county jail.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you know the names of those streets, Amos?

Mr. EUINS. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. If I told you they were Elm and Houston, would that help your memory as to what the names of those streets were?

Mr. EUINS. It was right by the freeway.

Mr. SPECTER. All right. Let me show you a photograph, Amos, which is on a document I have marked as Commission Exhibit No. 365.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 365 for identification.)

Mr. SPECTER. Take just a minute and look at that, and see if you can recognize where that is.

Mr. EUINS. This is going across the railroad tracks, back up to here--right here at the corner is the Book Depository Building.

Mr. SPECTER. That is the Book Depository Building, you say?

Mr. EUINS. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. All right.

Why don't you just put an "X" with this pencil on the Book Depository Building, as you identify it there, Amos--on the building itself.

(Witness marking.)

Mr. SPECTER. Now, were you somewhere in that area when the President's motorcade went by?

Mr. EUINS. I was right here.

Mr. SPECTER. Why don't you take this black pencil and put an "A" right where you were, Amos.

(Witness marking.)

Mr. SPECTER. Now, what time did you get to the place where you have marked with an "A"?

Mr. EUINS. Oh, I would say around about 15 minutes or something like that to 12, because my mother brought me down there.

Mr. SPECTER. She drove you down, did she?

Mr. EUINS. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, were you with anybody when you came to that spot, or did your mother leave you off there by yourself?

Mr. EUINS. She left me. She had to go on to work.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, about how long was it after you got there that the motorcade came by?

Mr. EUINS. Oh, I would say about--I had been there about 15, maybe 20 minutes. It come around the corner, come on around.

Mr. SPECTER. All right.

Amos, I want to show you another picture here that I have marked as Commission Exhibit No. 366.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 366 for identification.)

Mr. SPECTER. I ask you if you can recognize what that building is.

Mr. EUINS. This here is the Book Depository Building.

Mr. SPECTER. All right.

Now, look back over here at 365. Can you tell us which direction the President's motorcade came from on this picture?

Mr. EUINS. It come from right in here.

Mr. SPECTER. First of all, do you know what the name of this street is? Would that be Main Street, in Dallas?

Mr. EUINS. Yes, sir; I think so.

Mr. SPECTER. Coming down Main Street, indicating in a general westerly direction. Turning which way?

Mr. EUINS. This way.

Mr. SPECTER. Turned right.

Do you know if that is Houston Street?

Mr. EUINS. No, sir; I don't.

Mr. SPECTER. Let the record show the witness is identifying a street heretofore identified as Houston.

Then which way did the motorcade go after proceeding in a general northerly direction on Houston?

Mr. EUINS. It come this way, turn.

Mr. SPECTER. Which way--right or left?

Mr. EUINS. It turned to the left, coming down, going on.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you know the name of the street it turned onto when it made the left turn?

Mr. EUINS. I was just trying to keep an eye on the President.

Mr. SPECTER. The witness has identified a street heretofore identified as Elm Street.

Tell us what you saw as the motorcade went by.

Mr. EUINS. I was standing here on the corner. And then the President come around the corner right here. And I was standing here. And I was waving, because there wasn't hardly no one on the corner right there but me. I was waving. He looked that way and he waved back at me. And then I had seen a pipe, you know, up there in the window, I thought it was a pipe, some kind of pipe.

Mr. SPECTER. When had you first seen that thing you just described as a pipe?

Mr. EUINS. Right as he turned the corner here.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, exactly where did you see that thing you have described as a pipe come from. And take a good look now before you tell us where it was.

Mr. EUINS. Right here.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, will you mark an "X" on Exhibit No. 366 where you saw the pipe? Mark the exact window, if you can, Amos.

(Witness marking.)

Mr. SPECTER. All right.

Proceed to tell us what happened, Amos.

Mr. EUINS. Then I was standing here, and as the motorcade turned the corner, I was facing, looking dead at the building. And so I seen this pipe thing sticking out the window. I wasn't paying too much attention to it. Then when the first shot was fired, I started looking around, thinking it was a backfire. Everybody else started looking around. Then I looked up at the window, and he shot again. So--you know this fountain bench here, right around here. Well, anyway, there is a little fountain right here. I got behind this little fountain, and then he shot again.

So after he shot again, he just started looking down this, you know.

Mr. SPECTER. Who started looking down that way?

Mr. EUINS. The man in the window. I could see his hand, and I could see his other hand on the trigger, and one hand was on the barrel thing.

Mr. SPECTER. All right.

Now, at the time the second shot was fired, where were you looking then?

Mr. EUINS. I was still looking at the building, you know, behind this--I was looking at the building.

Mr. SPECTER. Looking at anything special in the building?

Mr. EUINS. Yes, sir. I was looking where the barrel was sticking out.

Mr. SPECTER. How many shots did you hear altogether?

Mr. EUINS. I believe there was four, to be exact.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, where were you looking at the time of the third shot, if you remember?

Mr. EUINS. After he shot the first two times, I was just standing back here. And then after he shot again, he pulled the gun back in the window. And then all the police ran back over here in the track vicinity.

Mr. SPECTER. Slow down just a little bit in what you are telling us.

When the second shot occurred, were you still standing at the point where you marked with an "A" on 365?

Mr. EUINS. Yes, sir. But I was right behind this little----

Mr. SPECTER. Were you a little bit behind of where that "A" is?

Mr. EUINS. Yes, sir; right back here.

Mr. SPECTER. Let's mark that with a "B," where you were at the time the second shot occurred.

(Witness marking.)

Mr. SPECTER. All right.

Now, when the third shot occurred, Amos, let me ask you again, where were you looking then?

Mr. EUINS. I was still down here, looking up at the building.

Mr. SPECTER. What did you see in the building?

Mr. EUINS. I seen a bald spot on this man's head, trying to look out the window. He had a bald spot on his head. I was looking at the bald spot. I could see his hand, you know the rifle laying across in his hand. And I could see his hand sticking out on the trigger part. And after he got through, he just pulled it back in the window.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you see him pull it back in the window?

Mr. EUINS. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. And were you still standing at point B?

Mr. EUINS. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. When he pulled it back in the window?

Mr. EUINS. I was still behind here, yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Where were you when you heard what you described as the fourth shot?

Mr. EUINS. The first shot I was standing here.

Mr. SPECTER. Now you are referring to 366. Put an "L" on 366 where you were standing at the first shot.

Mr. EUINS. Right here.

(Witness marking.)

Mr. EUINS. And then as I looked up there, you know, he fired another shot, you know, as I was looking. So I got behind this fountain thing right in there, at this point B.

Mr. SPECTER. At point B on 365?

Mr. EUINS. I got behind there. And then I watched, he did fire again. Then he started looking down towards my way, and then he fired again.

Mr. SPECTER. The question I have for you now is where were you when he fired on that fourth time.

Mr. EUINS. I was still behind point B.

Mr. SPECTER. You were still at point B when he fired the fourth time?

Mr. EUINS. Yes, sir. Then he pulled the gun back in the window.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you see him pull the gun back in the window after the fourth shot?

Mr. EUINS. Yes; he just come back like this.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you watch what he did after that?

Mr. EUINS. No, sir; because after he had pulled it back in the window, I ran this way, and went across the tracks.

Mr. SPECTER. All right.

You start on Exhibit 365, and put the black mark and show us the path of where you ran on 365.

Mr. EUINS. I was here at "B."

(At this point, Representative Ford entered the hearing room.)

(Witness marking.)

Mr. EUINS. I was coming down like this here, and there was a policeman, you know there is a little cut you can come through there. There was a policeman standing right around here.

Mr. SPECTER. Where was the policeman standing? Mark that with point "C," Amos.

Mr. EUINS. Right there.

(Witness marking.)

Mr. SPECTER. You ran past the policeman standing at point C?

Mr. EUINS. No, sir. You see, I come from point B, and ran here, and told the policeman I had seen the shot, because they were looking at the railroad tracks. So he put me on the cycle and he went to here.

Mr. SPECTER. He put you on the cycle and took you where?

Mr. EUINS. Up to the front of the building.

Mr. SPECTER. The Texas School Book Depository Building?

Mr. EUINS. Yes, sir; and then he called some more cars. They got all around the building. And then the policemen came from the tracks, and they got around the building.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you see the policemen come from the tracks to go around the building?

Mr. EUINS. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. About how many policemen were there, would you say, Amos?

Mr. EUINS. There was about 14 or something like that. They were coming from the tracks here.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you know what the name of that policeman was, who was in that position where you have marked C?

Mr. EUINS. No, sir. He was kind of an old policeman. I ran down and got him. And he ran up here.

Mr. SPECTER. You mean----

Mr. EUINS. The Book Depository Building.

Then he called some more cars. They got all the way around the building. And then after that, well, he seen another man. Another man told him he seen a man run out the back.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you know who that man was who said somebody ran out the back?

Mr. EUINS. No, sir. He was a construction man working back there.

Mr. SPECTER. Were you there when the man talked about somebody running out the back?

Mr. EUINS. Yes, sir. He said the man had--he said he had kind of bald spot on his head. And he said the man come back there.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you know what the name of the man was who told the police that someone had run out the back?

Mr. EUINS. . No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. What did you do next, Amos?

Mr. EUINS. So then they took me over to the county jail. And that is where I told them what happened. And then they was standing around the Book Depository Building, and I stayed over there to the jailhouse about 6 o'clock. And then they took me home.

Mr. SPECTER. And did they question you about what happened and what you observed on that occasion?

Mr. EUINS. At the jailhouse?

Mr. SPECTER. At the jailhouse.

Mr. EUINS. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. All right.

Amos, would you tell us everything that you can remember about what you saw about the gun itself?

Mr. EUINS. Well, when I first got here on the corner, the President was coming around the bend. That is when--I was looking at the building then.

Mr. SPECTER. What did you think it was when you first saw it?

Mr. EUINS. I thought it was a piece of pipe or something sticking out the window.

Mr. SPECTER. Did it look like it was a piece of metal to you?

Mr. EUINS. Yes, sir; just a little round piece of pipe.

Mr. SPECTER. About an inch in diameter, would you say?

Mr. EUINS. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. And how long was the piece of pipe that you saw?

Mr. EUINS. It was sticking out about that much.

Mr. SPECTER. About 14 or 15 inches?

Mr. EUINS. Yes, sir. And then after I seen it sticking out, after awhile, that is when I heard the shot, and everybody started looking around.

Mr. SPECTER. At that time, Amos, did you see anything besides the end of the pipe?

Mr. EUINS. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. For example, you didn't see anything about a stock or any other part of the rifle?

Mr. EUINS. No, sir--not with the first shot. You see, the President was still right along down in here somewhere on the first shot.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, when you saw it on the first occasion, did you think it was a rifle then? Or did that thought enter your mind?

Mr. EUINS. No, sir; I wasn't thinking about it then. But when I was looking at it, when he shot, it sounded like a high-powered rifle, after I listened to it awhile, because I had been in the NDCC for about a year.

Mr. SPECTER. What is NDCC?

Mr. EUINS. We call it a military army for the boys, at our school.

Mr. SPECTER. Is that ROTC?

Mr. EUINS. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. ROTC. And have you had any opportunity to fire a weapon in that ROTC class?

Mr. EUINS. No, sir; not outside of just .22's. We fire them on the firing range.

Mr. SPECTER. All right.

Now, when you looked up at the rifle later, you described seeing some of the trigger part.

Mr. EUINS. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, describe as fully as you can for us what you saw then, Amos.

Mr. EUINS. Well, when he stuck it out, you know--after the President had come on down the street further, you know he kind of stuck it out more, you know.

Mr. SPECTER. How far was it sticking out of the window would you say then, Amos?

Mr. EUINS. I would say it was about something like that.

Mr. SPECTER. Indicating about 3 feet?

Mr. EUINS. You know--the trigger housing and stock and receiver group out the window.

Mr. SPECTER. I can't understand you, Amos.

Mr. EUINS. It was enough to get the stock and receiving house and the trigger housing to stick out the window.

Mr. SPECTER. The stock and receiving house?

Mr. EUINS. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, what direction was the rifle pointing?

Mr. EUINS. Down--what did you say--Elm?

Mr. SPECTER. Elm Street?

Mr. EUINS. Yes, sir; down Elm.

Mr. SPECTER. Was it pointing in the direction of the President?

Mr. EUINS. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, could you see anything else on the gun?

Mr. EUINS. No, sir; I could not.

Mr. SPECTER. For example, could you see whether or not there was a telescopic lens on the gun?

Mr. EUINS. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, is there anything else about the gun that you can describe to us that you have not already told us about?

Mr. EUINS. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, what kind of a look, if any, did you have at the man who was there?

Mr. EUINS. All I got to see was the man with a spot in his head, because he had his head something like this.

Mr. SPECTER. Indicating his face down, looking down the rifle?

Mr. EUINS. Yes, sir; and I could see the spot on his head.

Mr. SPECTER. How would you describe that man for us?

Mr. EUINS. I wouldn't know how to describe him, because all I could see was the spot and his hand.

Mr. SPECTER. Was he slender or was he fat?

Mr. EUINS. I didn't get to see him.

Mr. SPECTER. Could you tell from where you looked whether he was tall or short?

Mr. EUINS. No.

Mr. SPECTER. Of what race was he, Amos?

Mr. EUINS. I couldn't tell, because these boxes were throwing a reflection, shaded.

Mr. SPECTER. Could you tell whether he was a Negro gentleman or a white man?

Mr. EUINS. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Couldn't even tell that? But you have described that he had a bald----

Mr. EUINS. Spot in his head. Yes, sir; I could see the bald spot in his head.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, could you tell what color hair he had?

Mr. EUINS. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Could you tell whether his hair was dark or light?

Mr. EUINS. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. How far back did the bald spot on his head go?

Mr. EUINS. I would say about right along in here.

Mr. SPECTER. Indicating about 2-1/2 inches above where your hairline is. Is that about what you are saying?

Mr. EUINS. Yes, sir; right along in here.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, did you get a very good look at that man, Amos?

Mr. EUINS. No, sir; I did not.

Mr. SPECTER. Were you able to tell anything about the clothes he was wearing?

Mr. EUINS. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, when you were at the sheriff's department in the police station that you have described, did they ask you to sign an affidavit or statement for them, Amos?

Mr. EUINS. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. I now show you a paper, Amos, which I have marked as Commission Exhibit No. 367.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 367 for identification.)

Mr. SPECTER. This is supposed to be a statement which is signed. Let me first point out to you that it is a copy of it. I ask you if this is a copy of your signature?

Mr. EUINS. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. All right.

Now, will you take your time, Amos, and read that over, and then I want to ask you a couple of questions about it.

Did you have a chance to read it over?

Mr. EUINS. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. All right.

Let me ask you about a couple of specific things here, Amos.

In the statement you say here that he was a white man. By reading the statement, does that refresh your memory as to whether he was a white man or not?

Mr. EUINS. No, sir; I told the man that I could see a white spot on his head, but I didn't actually say it was a white man. I said I couldn't tell. But I saw a white spot in his head.

Mr. SPECTER. Your best recollection at this moment is you still don't know whether he was a white man or a Negro? All you can say is that you saw a white spot on his head?

Mr. EUINS. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Then, did you tell the people at the police station that he was a white man, or did they make a mistake when they wrote that down here?

Mr. EUINS. They must have made a mistake, because I told them I could see a white spot on his head.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, is there anything else in this statement, Amos, which is different from the way you remember this event, as you are sitting here right now?

Amos, did you understand the last question?

Mr. EUINS. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you answer it for us?

Mr. EUINS. No, sir; I don't think there is.

Mr. SPECTER. I don't understand you, Amos. The question I am trying to get at it, as you read that statement over now, you have testified or told us here today what you remember about this assassination?

Mr. EUINS. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. And I am asking you, when you read that statement over, is there anything on that statement which you think is wrong, based on what you remember right now?

For example, you told us that they were wrong when they wrote down that you identified him as a white man. Were they wrong about anything else that they wrote down?

Mr. EUINS. Not that I can see.

Mr. SPECTER. All right.

When you looked up and saw this man, Amos, did he have on a hat?

Mr. EUINS. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you notice any boxes behind him at that time, Amos?

Mr. EUINS. Yes, sir; there were some boxes, you know, all the side of the window. Like this window--there were some boxes in these windows up here.

Mr. SPECTER. You saw some boxes in these windows?

Mr. EUINS. In these windows, and these windows, and there was boxes in half of this one.

Mr. SPECTER. All right.

Now, mark the windows where you saw those boxes, Amos. Start off with--mark the window "Y" where you saw boxes.

(Witness marking.)

Mr. SPECTER. You made a figure 9, as I read it, on the two places you saw boxes in the windows.

Mr. EUINS. Yes, sir; in this half.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, were there boxes in the window marked "X"?

Mr. EUINS. Yes, sir. There were about two or three of them right along here.

Mr. SPECTER. Indicating the middle dividing line there?

Mr. EUINS. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Was that window marked "X" opened, Amos, or closed?

Mr. EUINS. It was open.

Mr. SPECTER. How far open was it?

Mr. EUINS. About that high.

Mr. SPECTER. Indicating about 19 inches?

Mr. EUINS. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. And was the window in the other double window immediately next to the window marked "X" open or closed?

Mr. EUINS. The top window, on the sixth floor?

Mr. SPECTER. I am referring to the window right next to it.

Mr. EUINS. No, sir; it was not open.

Mr. SPECTER. Amos, when you heard the first shot, did you have any reaction or impression as to where the noise was coming from at that exact time?

Mr. EUINS. No, sir; not at the exact time. You know, because everybody else started looking around. So I just started looking around, thinking it was a backfire, just like everyone else.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you look up towards that window before the second shot, or just when the second shot occurred?

Mr. EUINS. I think--just a little before, because as soon as I did, I looked at it--pow.

Mr. SPECTER. You heard a pow?

Mr. EUINS. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, as you were watching and heard, did you have the impression that the noise you heard was coming from that rifle?

Mr. EUINS. No, sir; I didn't, because I wasn't thinking of the rifle at first--you know, because it looked like a pipe at first.

Mr. SPECTER. When you say the second--when you heard the second shot, when you say you were looking at the rifle, did you have the feeling that the noise came from the rifle when you heard the second shot, when you were looking at it?

Mr. EUINS. No, sir; I did not.

Mr. SPECTER. Well, did you have any impression at all about where the noise was coming from?

Mr. EUINS. No, sir; not on the first shot.

Mr. SPECTER. How about the second shot?

Mr. EUINS. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Where did you think the noise was coming from on the second shot?

Mr. EUINS. I seen him shoot on the second shot.

Mr. SPECTER. So you thought the noise was coming from the rifle on the second shot?

Mr. EUINS. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Did you say you thought, or saw?

Mr. EUINS. I saw him shoot the second shot.

Mr. SPECTER. How high were those boxes behind him, Amos?

Mr. EUINS. They was probably about 2 feet high stacked in the back of him.

Mr. SPECTER. Amos, were you questioned later by the FBI?

Mr. EUINS. Yes, sir; over in the office.

Mr. SPECTER. How many times were you questioned by the FBI?

Mr. EUINS. Oh, once.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you remember when that was?

Mr. EUINS. It was around about 2 or 3 o'clock.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you remember how many days after the assassination it was?

Mr. EUINS. About 4.

Mr. SPECTER. You think they might have talked to you more than once?

Mr. EUINS. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Chief Justice, I move for the admission into evidence of the statement marked Commission Exhibit 367.

The CHAIRMAN. That may be admitted.

(The document heretofore marked for identification as Commission Exhibit No. 367 was received in evidence.)

Mr. SPECTER. That concludes the questioning I have, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Wright?

Mr. WRIGHT. Nothing further, Mr. Chief Justice.

Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Chief Justice, I would like to move for the admission into evidence of all the exhibits here--365, 366, as well as 367.

The CHAIRMAN. Very well.

(The documents heretofore marked for identification as Commission Exhibits Nos. 365 and 366, were received in evidence.)

The CHAIRMAN. Amos, you may be excused, then. Thank you very much for coming and helping us out with your testimony.

We will recess until tomorrow morning at 9 o'clock.

_Wednesday, March 11, 1964_

TESTIMONY OF BUELL WESLEY FRAZIER, LINNIE MAE RANDLE, AND CORTLANDT CUNNINGHAM

The President's Commission met at 9:45 a.m. on March 11, 1964, at 200 Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C.

Present were Chief Justice Earl Warren, Chairman; Senator John Sherman Cooper and Representative Gerald R. Ford, members.

Also present were J. Lee Rankin, general counsel; Joseph A. Ball, assistant counsel; David W. Belin, assistant counsel; Albert E. Jenner, Jr., assistant counsel; Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel; Norman Redlich, assistant counsel; Charles Murray and Lewis E. Powell, Jr., observers.

TESTIMONY OF BUELL WESLEY FRAZIER

The CHAIRMAN. The Commission will be in order.

Mr. BALL. I would like to assign Commission Exhibit No. 364 to a paper sack which the FBI has identified as their C-109 Exhibit. That will be the Commission's Exhibit No. 364 for identification at this time.

The CHAIRMAN. All right.

(The paper sack referred to was marked Commission's Exhibit No. 364 for identification.)

Mr. BALL. Also for the record I would like to announce that prior to--this morning, Mr. Cortlandt Cunningham and Charles Killion of the Federal Bureau of Investigation laboratory, the Ballistics Division, Firearms Division, I guess it is, broke down, that is unscrewed Commission Exhibit No. 139, an Italian rifle, and that rifle has been placed in, after being disassembled, has been placed in Commission's No. 364 for identification, that paper sack.

The CHAIRMAN. All right.

Mr. BALL. We have also here before the Commission, Commission No. 142 which is a paper sack which is identified as the FBI's Exhibit No. 10. I think that has its number, exhibit number on it.

I have been informed that was 142. My notes show that the brown paper sack is 142.

I think we can call the witness now.

The CHAIRMAN. All right; would you call Mr. Frazier, please.

Raise your right hand to be sworn, please.

Do you solemnly swear the testimony you will give before this Commission will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. FRAZIER. I do.

The CHAIRMAN. Will you be seated, please?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Joseph Ball of our staff will examine you, Mr. Frazier, but I would like to read a very short statement concerning the purpose of the meeting.

The purpose of today's hearing is to hear the testimony of Buell Wesley Frazier, and Linnie Mae Randle. The Commission has been advised that these two witnesses have stated that they saw Lee Harvey Oswald on the morning of November 22, 1963. The Commission proposes to ask these witnesses questions concerning their knowledge of the assassination of President Kennedy.

You have a copy of this, have you not?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. All right, you may proceed, Mr. Ball.

Mr. BALL. You call yourself Buell or Wesley?

Mr. FRAZIER. I go by Wesley.

Mr. BALL. Well, Wesley, what is your age?

Mr. FRAZIER. Sir?

Mr. BALL. What is your age?

Mr. FRAZIER. Nineteen.

Mr. BALL. Where do you live?

Mr. FRAZIER. For the time being I am living in Irving now.

Mr. BALL. Irving, Tex.?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What is the address where you live?

Mr. FRAZIER. 2439 West Fifth Street.

Mr. BALL. Did you live there in November 1963?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. BALL. And who lives in that house with you?

Mr. FRAZIER. My sister and brother-in-law and their three children.

Mr. BALL. Will you state their names, your sister's name?

Mr. FRAZIER. Linnie Mae Randle and my brother-in-law. I believe his real name is William Edward Randle. We call him Bill. They have three little girls, Diana, Patricia and Caroline Sue.

Mr. BALL. Where does your mother live?

Mr. FRAZIER. She lives in Huntsville.

Mr. BALL. Where is that?

Mr. FRAZIER. That is about 200 miles south of Dallas there.

Mr. BALL. What is the name of the town?

Mr. FRAZIER. Town, you mean where my mother lives? Huntsville.

Mr. BALL. Huntsville?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; that is about, it is about 70, 80 miles north of Houston.

Mr. BALL. What is your mother's name?

Mr. FRAZIER. Essie Mae Williams.

Mr. BALL. Was she visiting you and your sister sometime in November 1963?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; she was.

Mr. BALL. How long was she there?

Mr. FRAZIER. She was there for, I believe, for a period of about 4 or 5 weeks because my stepfather was with her and he got sick and they had to put him in the hospital and he was in the hospital 3 or 4 weeks, somewheres, 4 or 5 weeks because they were there a week before he got sick.

Mr. BALL. Then on November 21 and 22, living with you in this residence at Irving, Tex., were your mother, Mrs. Williams, and your sister, Linnie Mae Randle?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

Mr. BALL. And her husband and their three children?

Mr. FRAZIER. That is right.

Mr. BALL. Where do you work?

Mr. FRAZIER. Work at Texas School Books.

Mr. BALL. How long have you worked there?

Mr. FRAZIER. I have been working there since September.

Mr. BALL. September of 1963?

Mr. FRAZIER. Correct.

Mr. BALL. What kind of work do you do there?

Mr. FRAZIER. I fill orders.

Mr. BALL. How did you happen to get that job?

Mr. FRAZIER. Well, I went to see, first I come up there and started looking for a job and couldn't find one myself so I went to one of these employment agencies and through that a lady called up one morning, I was fixing to go out and look for one, I was looking for myself in the meantime when they were, too, and so she called up and gave me a tip to it if I was interested in a job like that I could go over there and see about that and for the time being I wasn't working and needed some money and so I did and I went over there and saw Mr. Truly, and he gave me an interview, and then he hired me the same day I went over there.

Mr. BALL. You say you came up, you mean you came up from Huntsville?

Mr. FRAZIER. That is right; yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. That was in September 1963?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; it was.

Mr. BALL. Looking for a job around Dallas?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did you go to live with your sister at that time?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. BALL. What--where is the employment agency and what is its name when you first applied for a job?

Mr. FRAZIER. Well, I went to several but, see, this one got me this job the main one was Massey, the employment agency, and it is over there on Shady Grove Road.

Mr. BALL. In Dallas?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; in Irving.

Mr. BALL. How do you spell that name, the name of the employment agency?

Mr. FRAZIER. Massey?

Mr. BALL. Yes.

Mr. FRAZIER. I believe it is M-a-s-s-e-y.

Mr. BALL. And it was a woman at the employment agency that called you and told you to go to see the Texas School Book Depository?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, right.

Mr. BALL. And you went to see Mr. Truly and after an interview he gave you a job?

Mr. FRAZIER. Correct.

Mr. BALL. Then you started work there about what date in September?

Mr. FRAZIER. It was the 13th. I say that was the same day I went for an interview. I went early enough that morning that he told me to come back after lunch.

Mr. BALL. And you are still working there?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. When Mr. Truly hired you did he tell you it would be a full-time job or just a temporary job?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; he told me that he was looking for somebody full time and I told him, well, that is what I wanted, and so he said that would be just fine.

Mr. BALL. How much did he start to pay you?

Mr. FRAZIER. He started me off with a dollar and a quarter an hour.

Mr. BALL. That is for an eight-hour day?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right. Five days a week.

Mr. BALL. Did you commute back and forth from your sister's home in Irving?

Mr. FRAZIER. Over there to the Texas School Books?

Mr. BALL. To the Texas School Book Depository.

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. From the first day?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And you still do?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Do you own a car?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Your own car?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. You had it, did you, when you started to work?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Still have it?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And you have been since September driving that car from your sister's home in Irving over to the Texas School Book Depository?

Mr. FRAZIER. Correct.

Mr. BALL. Go there in the morning?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

Mr. BALL. What time do you get to work?

Mr. FRAZIER. I get there around 8 o'clock.

Mr. BALL. When do you quit?

Mr. FRAZIER. I quit at 4:45.

Mr. BALL. Then you drive home?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. How long for lunch?

Mr. FRAZIER. 45 minutes.

Mr. BALL. Do all the employees have the same lunch hour?

Mr. FRAZIER. Now, the ones who work down there filling book orders around where I work now, so we all work the same hours. Some people work up there in the offices, I hear that they come in a little bit later. Now, I don't know for sure but I see primarily the ones who does the same type of work I do, we all start the same time and work the same time.

Mr. BALL. Those are the people who fill the orders?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

Mr. BALL. How far is it in miles from your sister's home to Texas School Book Depository?

Mr. FRAZIER. It is roughly around 15 miles.

Mr. BALL. And did you take the same route every day?

Mr. FRAZIER. You mean since I have been going over there; since the first day?

Mr. BALL. That is right.

Mr. FRAZIER. Up to now?

Mr. BALL. Yes, right.

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I didn't.

You see, I found two ways, you can more judge by the traffic and you can go some days one way and the traffic will be easier than others, but most times I use just one route.

Mr. BALL. What route did you usually use?

Mr. FRAZIER. Used one like you go down from the house there.

Mr. BALL. Yes.