Chapter XXXIII: Part 33

Mrs. PAINE. Carry, that is a good Texas term for driving a person in a car.

Senator COOPER. I must say there, that is an old term even in Kentucky. You take some person some place you carry them.

Mrs. PAINE. You carry them; yes.

Mr. JENNER. It is an odd expression to me.

Mrs. PAINE. I have been in Texas longer than I think.

Mr. JENNER. I take it then there were two occasions when you visited her.

Mrs. PAINE. I believe there were two down there, and then I asked her, went to pick her up and brought her to my home and we spent a portion of the day at my home, and I then took her back.

Mr. JENNER. This was at your invitation?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; surely.

Mr. JENNER. Had you by this time--let us take the March 20 affair, occasion--had you some feeling of affinity or liking for Marina?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. As a person?

Mrs. PAINE. I did feel that she was in a difficult position from the first I met her.

Mr. JENNER. Now, chronologically, would you in your own words, so that I don't suggest anything to you, what was the next occasion?

The next time it was under circumstances in which you went to her home in your station wagon, picked her up and brought her to your home?

Mrs. PAINE. It was probably then that she mentioned to me that Lee wanted her to go back to the Soviet Union, was asking her to go back.

Mr. JENNER. He mentioned this subject as early as that, did he not?

Mrs. PAINE. This was still in March.

Mr. JENNER. She did?

Mrs. PAINE. She did, yes; and said that she didn't want to go.

Mr. JENNER. The Commission is interested in that. Would you please relate it?

Mrs. PAINE. She said she did not want to go back, that he asked her to go back, told her, perhaps, to go back.

Mr. JENNER. State just as accurately----

Mrs. PAINE. As she described it I felt----

Mr. JENNER. Just what she said now, please.

Mrs. PAINE. He told her he wanted to send her back with June.

Mr. JENNER. Alone?

Mrs. PAINE. To the Soviet Union. As she described it, I judged that meant----

Mr. JENNER. Please----

Mrs. PAINE. A divorce----

Mr. JENNER. Instead of saying as she described it tell us what she said, if you can.

Mrs. PAINE. She said that she had written to the Soviet Embassy to ask about papers to go back, and received a reply from them saying, "Why do you want to go back?" And she said she just didn't answer that letter because she didn't want to go back, and that that was where the matter stood at that time.

Mr. JENNER. She had not answered the letter?

Mrs. PAINE. The inquiry from the Embassy. She did not answer it.

Mr. DULLES. Did she say whether or not she showed that answer from the Soviet Embassy to her husband?

Mrs. PAINE. No; she didn't say.

Mr. JENNER. Did I understand you to say that Marina said to you that she thought that meant a divorce?

Mrs. PAINE. I will state again that she felt she was being sent back to stay back, that he would stay here, that this amounted to the end of the marriage for them, but not legally done.

Mr. JENNER. I see. And did she express any opinion of opposition to that?

Mrs. PAINE. She particularly was opposed to going back. It was leaving the United States that she was opposed to.

Mr. JENNER. She wanted to stay here, did she?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; very much so.

Mr. JENNER. I ask you this general question, then, Mrs. Paine: During all of your contact with Marina Oswald, did she ever express any view other than that one of wanting to remain in America?

Mrs. PAINE. No; she did not.

Mr. JENNER. What did she? Was she affirmative about it?

Mrs. PAINE. Very.

Mr. JENNER. Of wanting to stay in this country?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Now, what did you say when she related that her husband wanted her to return to Russia, and she thought to remain in Russia. Did it elicit some curiosity from you?

Mrs. PAINE. Curiosity? It elicited anger at Lee that he would presume to drop his responsibilities so preemptorily.

Mr. JENNER. Did you discuss it with her?

Mrs. PAINE. I wrote a letter to her in an effort to gather my words. I couldn't just discuss it with her. My language was not that good. What I wanted to do was offer her an alternative to being sent back, an economic alternative, and I thought for some time and thought over a week about inviting her to live with me. I was alone with my two children at the time, as an alternative to being sent back. If he thought he couldn't support her or didn't care to or whatever reason he had, I simply wanted to say there was an alternative to her going back, that she could stay and live with me if she wanted to. I wrote such a letter, really, to gather----

Mr. JENNER. Do you have it?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I do. This letter was never sent.

Mr. JENNER. Is that also at the hotel?

Mrs. PAINE. I don't know. It may be here. I can look if you want. This letter was never sent and never mentioned to her. I wrote it so that I would have the words before me to use if it seemed appropriate to me to make the invitation, you see, a way of gathering enough of the language, enough Russian, and to say what I wanted to say. And this letter is dated the 7th of April.

Mr. JENNER. The 7th of April?

Mrs. PAINE. And I know I spent at least a week thinking about it. I talked it over with Michael before I wrote it, and it is plainly marked "never sent" on the letter. I carried it with me, as I recall I carried it once to the apartment so that if----

Mr. JENNER. To what apartment?

Mrs. PAINE. To their apartment on Neely Street, so that if it seemed appropriate I could hand it to her, you see. I could make this invitation at home with time and a dictionary in hand, and then let her read it. It was ever so much easier than just trying to say it.

Mr. McCLOY. Though you never delivered it, did you ever speak from it to her?

Mrs. PAINE. When she was staying with me the last few days of April and the first week of May, I made, yes, a verbal invitation of that sort, and in the April 7 letter, I have just gone over this correspondence or I wouldn't recall what it said, but----

Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, Mrs. Paine. I think we can take the time to see if you have the letter in your bag.

Mrs. PAINE. I am sorry that I feel precipitated into a discussion of this correspondence, and I would rather--no, it is not here--go at it--there are several things I want to say about it. I began to mention it to Mr. Jenner this morning and thought we would have a whole afternoon to talk more.

Mr. JENNER. We will have time tonight, Mrs. Paine.

Mrs. PAINE. You will have time tonight?

Mr. JENNER. I thought Mr. Redlich might look at the letter. I didn't want to delay the Commission. You do have it at hand?

Mrs. PAINE. It is not here. It is at the hotel.

Mr. JENNER. I would like to return to something else for the moment, then, first.

What reasons did Marina give, if she gave any, as to why her husband wished her to return to Russia? What did she say on that subject?

Mrs. PAINE. She didn't say.

Mr. JENNER. Nothing at all?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. No explanation?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. On that occasion?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. I meant by that last question to imply that there might have been another occasion subsequently in which the subject was discussed again in which she did state what Mr. Oswald's reasons were, if any?

Mrs. PAINE. She never stated any reasons.

Mr. JENNER. Never?

Mrs. PAINE. She implied that it was because he didn't want her.

Mr. JENNER. He didn't what?

Mrs. PAINE. Want her.

Mr. JENNER. What is the date of this letter, April 7?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. McCLOY. We will take a brief recess.

(Brief recess.)

Mr. JENNER. Now, would you turn to your calendar, please. What is the next day, date, in your calendar, in which you have an entry?

Mrs. PAINE. Regarding the Oswalds?

Mr. JENNER. Regarding the Oswalds.

Mrs. PAINE. It is April 2, Tuesday.

Mr. JENNER. What is the entry?

Mrs. PAINE. "Marina and Lee dinner."

Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, I take it that by this time, that is, up to April 2 you had had several visits with Marina and you had reached the point at which you invited them to your home for dinner?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes. Now, Michael had never met either. By this time I had talked to him. I had indeed invited them to stay indefinitely.

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mrs. PAINE. And so I wanted him to meet them and invited them both to come to dinner.

Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, Mrs. Paine, if I seem presumptuous.

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. But you have stated several times, and now you state you inquired of your husband as to whether you could invite Marina to stay with you. Didn't you think that was a little presumptuous on your part to invite a man's wife to come to live with you?

Mrs. PAINE. Well, toward Lee it was presumptuous.

Mr. JENNER. Beg pardon?

Mrs. PAINE. Presumptuous in relation to Lee.

Mr. JENNER. In relation to Lee?

Mrs. PAINE. Indeed it is. Well, I will have to refer again to the letter of April 7 where I said I didn't want to hurt Lee by such an invitation, but that if they were unhappy, if their marital situation was similar to mine, and this is not specifically in the letter, but if he just did not want to live with her, that I would have offered this as an alternative, really to both of them. I didn't want to get into a position of competition with Lee for his wife. I thought about that, and thought he might be very offended.

Mr. JENNER. It is possible he might very well be.

Mrs. PAINE. Yes, it is possible he even might have been violent, but I didn't think anything about that.

Mr. JENNER. Did you have any impression of him up to this moment on this score?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. As a man of temper?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. Violence?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. None of that?

Mrs. PAINE. No. I had met him once.

Mr. JENNER. You invited the Oswalds to dinner on the evening of April 2?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. What day of the week was that?

Mrs. PAINE. Tuesday.

Mr. JENNER. Did anything occur that evening?

Mrs. PAINE. Well, Michael picked them up.

Mr. JENNER. Who did?

Mrs. PAINE. Michael picked them up.

Mr. JENNER. Your husband?

Mrs. PAINE. At the Neely Street address. Has he talked about that? It didn't come up?

Mr. JENNER. I don't know. I haven't the slightest notion. I was talking with you.

Mrs. PAINE. Should I go ahead? I just want to get this first impression into the record somewhere if he hasn't already.

Representative FORD. I think it would be helpful if you gave your impression of his impression.

Mr. JENNER. Of his impression.

Mrs. PAINE. All right. This I have learned since the assassination, he didn't give me this impression as at the time we didn't talk that much.

Mr. JENNER. Please, you are not giving us your impression of his impression on this occasion, but rather your impression of what he said to you after the assassination.

Mrs. PAINE. You still want it?

Representative FORD. I think it is important.

Mr. DULLES. Let us hear it.

Mrs. PAINE. He said--you must understand, that not living together we talked together very little. I am sure he would have given me his impression if we had been having dinner together the next day afterwards, you see. He went over and Marina was not yet ready. He thought that Lee was somewhat thoughtless. While doing absolutely nothing to help her get ready, get the baby's things together, prepare himself, he was quite impatient, thought she should be ready, and gave orders while he himself sat down and talked to Michael, and Michael carried the impression that Lee was somewhat thoughtless.

Mr. DULLES. What did you do? That was about a half hour--what did you do during that period?

Mrs. PAINE. I was at the house preparing the dinner.

Mr. DULLES. You were at home?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes. It has to be my impression of his impressions. I don't recall the evening too well, the evening of the second. I do recall we certainly had dinner together. I can't recall what the predominant language was. Lee and Michael, of course, talked in English. Not wanting to exclude her entirely from the conversation, I made opportunity to talk with her in Russian after the meal was over. She and I did the dishes and talked in Russian, and we were in the kitchen while Michael was talking to Lee in English in the living room, so I do not know what was said then between the two of them.

Mr. JENNER. How did your husband get along with Lee Oswald?

Mrs. PAINE. Well, you probably have something on that.

Mr. JENNER. What was your impression? I want your impression of how your husband got along.

Mrs. PAINE. Okay. He was initially very interested in learning what sort of man this was who had taken such a dramatic and unusual step to go to the Soviet Union and attempt to renounce his citizenship. He thought here is a person that must have thought things out for himself, a very individualistic person, not a follower of the masses, and he wanted to hear what the ideology was that led Lee to this step.

Michael has told me that he very soon felt that there wasn't much ideology or thought, foundation. That Michael had thought he might be able to learn from this man something and find at least good thinking going on or inquiry, but he didn't find it. He rather found very rigid adherence to a few principles such as the principle of the capitalist exploiting the worker, and that this was a great moral failing of the capitalistic society. Michael's own feeling was that Lee's view of morality was very different from Michael's.

Mr. JENNER. In what respect, Mrs. Paine?

Mrs. PAINE. Michael recalls having--now, this is later. This is not that evening. Did you expect it was? This is answering your question of Michael's impression of Lee.

Mr. JENNER. I wanted his initial impression.

Mrs. PAINE. All initial impressions. Well, I have passed that. I have gone considerably past it, in fact.

Mr. JENNER. I see. How many times had you seen Marina up to this moment, that is, up to April 2?

Mrs. PAINE. It was two or three times besides the initial party in February.

Mr. JENNER. And your best recollection is that this was a nice, pleasant evening, and that was about all?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Did your husband take the Oswald's home that evening?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. This is the second. When was the next occasion that you had contact with either of the Oswalds?

Mrs. PAINE. There is a notation of the eighth of April. I am looking on my calendar, I have no other way of knowing, and one also on the tenth which has an arrow going to the eleventh.

Mr. JENNER. I would like to ask you a little bit about that before you go into it. Would you describe for the Commission now the condition, the physical condition, of your calendar there?

Mrs. PAINE. Physical?

Mr. JENNER. Yes. There is a square, and in the square there is written something.

Mrs. PAINE. "Marina" is written this time in Russian. I am improving, it seems.

Mr. JENNER. In Russian. It is in the square dated April 10.

Mrs. PAINE. I am talking now about the square on April 8. There is a notation "Marina".

Mr. JENNER. Is that all there is in that square?

Mrs. PAINE. That is all that is in that square.

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mrs. PAINE. Then the only thing that appears in the square for April 10 is the name "Marina" in Russian, and an arrow pointing, an arrow from it pointing, to April 11.

Mr. JENNER. Now, go back, if you will, to April 8.

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Does that refresh your recollection or stimulate you as to whether you had any contact with Marina on that day or whether it was prearranged and what the occasion was?

Mrs. PAINE. Certainly, it says that there had been an arrangement to get together. Whether we did I don't know.

Mr. JENNER. I thought you had read everything that appeared in that square. Is there more than just the word "Marina" in the square?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. That is my recollection. But that refreshes your recollection in turning that, that was a prearranged meeting?

Mrs. PAINE. Well, all of these were, since there was no way over the telephone.

Mr. JENNER. Is your recollection sufficiently refreshed to state whether the meeting was a visit by you to her or she to you?

Mrs. PAINE. No; I don't recall.

Mr. JENNER. Does it have a relation to the letter that you say that you prepared dated April 7, which is the day before?

Mrs. PAINE. I might have taken it that day, I don't know. Yes; it is entirely possible. I hadn't thought about it.

Mr. JENNER. But anyhow my mentioning those two events together, does that refresh your recollection or stimulate it more specifically on the subject?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. It does not. You have no recollection beyond the fact that on April 8 you have an entry with the word "Marina." Is that written in Russian?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. The word "Marina" in Russian, it doesn't stimulate you in any respect, does not stimulate your recollection?

Representative FORD. At the time of the dinner at your home on April 2, following that or during that time, do you recollect any discussion about General Walker between your husband and Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mrs. PAINE. No; I don't recollect any such discussion.

Representative FORD. That night?

Mrs. PAINE. If there was any it would have had to have been in the living room while I was talking to Marina in Russian in the kitchen. I didn't hear any reference to it.

Representative FORD. You didn't hear any discussion that evening between your husband and Lee Oswald about General Walker?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Representative FORD. Did your husband ever tell you subsequently of any such discussion?

Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall it. There was one reference, but that was later.

Representative FORD. That was later. Do you recall when?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes. It would be the Friday after U.N. Day, October the 4th.

Representative FORD. That was October 1963?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Representative FORD. And this was April 2d?

Mrs. PAINE. 1963.

Representative FORD. 1963.

Mr. JENNER. Do you recall any discussion of General Walker at all with Marina or in the presence of Marina or with Lee Oswald or in his presence in your home or their home or even out in the parkway on the subject of General Walker up to April 11, 1963?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. None whatsoever?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. Any discussion between yourself and your husband on that day?

Mrs. PAINE. No; none that I recall.

Mr. JENNER. Do you subscribe to a newspaper?

Mrs. PAINE. At that time I subscribed to the Irving local paper.

Mr. JENNER. Is that an evening or a morning paper?

Mrs. PAINE. At that time it was a morning paper.

Mr. JENNER. Morning paper. Do you have a recollection of being aware in the edition of April 11 of an attack on General Walker the night before?

Mrs. PAINE. It is more likely that I heard it on television. I think I must have heard it.

Mr. JENNER. You have a television and a radio?

Mrs. PAINE. We get news from the television.

Mr. JENNER. And you were aware of the attack on General Walker the evening of April 10. Did you see Marina Oswald on the 11th?

Mrs. PAINE. I can only guess so judging from these marks on my calendar.

Mr. JENNER. We would like your very best recollection, please, Mrs. Paine?

Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall; I just don't recall.

Mr. JENNER. You just don't have any present recollection that you did see her on the 11th or you didn't? You just have no--you are blank?

Mrs. PAINE. I can only guess from the calendar, that is all.

Mr. JENNER. Other than that entry you have no recollection whatsoever?

Mrs. PAINE. That is right.

Mr. DULLES. If you had seen her would it have been at her house, at her apartment?

Mrs. PAINE. I don't even know that.

Mr. DULLES. Wouldn't you have remembered four trips back and forth?

Mrs. PAINE. I remember that I made such trips, but which day it is, it is very difficult to know.

Mr. DULLES. I see. But you think--have you had a recollection about seeing her at this time, without pinpointing it?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Was there any discussion between you and Marina on the subject of the General Walker incident?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. None whatsoever?

Mrs. PAINE. I am trying to recall now when she first told me that Lee was out of work. The next note I have of having seen them, and you must understand this calendar by no means tells everything I have done or would even be accurate about what I have done on account of what has happened, but at some point she told me that he was out of work.

Mr. JENNER. Was it some point near the time we are now discussing?

Mrs. PAINE. Near the time we are now discussing. I am trying to get some content in order to answer the question of what happened, did I see her, what happened. The next date I have down for seeing her is a picnic on the 20th of April.

Mr. JENNER. Had she told you----

Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall it having been that long, but it probably was, between the 11th and the picnic. It was before the picnic she told that he was out of work and had been for a few days before he told her.

Now, you probably know when he was out of work, but I don't, when he lost his job. So I am judging that possibly this was mentioned on the 11th that he was out of work, because we did plan to have a picnic on the 20th which included Lee, but it could have been even that day that she told me that he was out of work and had been for some time.

Mr. JENNER. Was there any day on or about this time, the 10th or 11th or 12th, within those 3 days, that you saw Marina, where your attention was arrested by her being upset or disturbed?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. In any fashion?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. Now, I notice in your calendar and entry April 16, "St. Marks open again 12 noon." Is that the school your children attend?

Mrs. PAINE. No, they are both preschool age. It must have been an Easter--my children are preschool age.

Mr. JENNER. What was the occasion of your making that entry?

Mrs. PAINE. I probably wanted to visit the class.

Mr. JENNER. What class?

Mrs. PAINE. A language class. This is a school at which I subsequently taught. Last summer I taught at St. Marks School.

Mr. JENNER. You were visiting the class in advance of your teaching?

Mrs. PAINE. So I probably wanted to visit--no, just any language class there, and inquired, I judge, you see, you will find on Good Friday no school, too, the 12th. So I was marking when the Easter vacation was for St. Marks in order to make plans sometime later to go and visit.

Mr. JENNER. All right. Would you return to April 2, that dinner. Is that entry "dinner at 8"? I couldn't quite figure out----

Mrs. PAINE. I believe that is the 7.

Mr. JENNER. Seven. Was anything said that night about Lee Oswald's work?

Mrs. PAINE. No; nothing.

Mr. JENNER. About his job?

Mrs. PAINE. Well, I asked him how could I reach them if I had to call off a get-together. I had no way of telephoning Marina. If the child got sick how would I tell her I am not coming. So I said could I have his telephone at work in order to reach them through him if I felt it necessary some time, and he wrote down for me the address and telephone number of the place where he worked. This was on the 2d of April.

Mr. JENNER. And that, I will turn to that, if I might, and that will be Commission Exhibit 402, and we have a like photograph of the exhibit. Is all of that exhibit in your handwriting?

Mrs. PAINE. Well, I have just said he wrote down Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall.

Mr. JENNER. There is one entry that is in his handwriting?

Mrs. PAINE. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. Give us the letter page of that, will you?

Mrs. PAINE. The letter page, "O" for Oswald.

Mr. JENNER. "O" for Oswald. The entry Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall was written by Mr. Oswald; all other entries on that page are in your handwriting; is that correct?

Mrs. PAINE. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. Are all other entries in the entire address book in your handwriting?

Mrs. PAINE. Did we go over it? What did I say?

Mr. JENNER. Yes, we did this morning.

Mrs. PAINE. I would guess so. I don't recall. Did we say so this morning? I will have to look it over again.

Mr. JENNER. I am not permitted to testify, Mrs. Paine.

Mrs. PAINE. All right. You want me to look right now? I usually write the addresses down myself, so it would be quite unusual for someone else to.

Mr. JENNER. Is this address book in the same condition now as it was when you gave it to the police?

Mrs. PAINE. I did not give it to the police, they took it, and I didn't know it was gone until later that day. It is in the same condition except it has been through the finger-printing process.

Mr. JENNER. I am particularly interested----

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it is all in my handwriting.

Mr. JENNER. I am particularly interested in the entries on the page lettered "O," and I want to especially ask you whether that page is in the same condition now as it was when it was----

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it is.

Mr. DULLES. Could I ask the witness why there are certain lines half horizontal, half perpendicular there, certain of these?

Mrs. PAINE. It means it is an old address, no longer applicable.

Mr. DULLES. I see.

Mr. JENNER. Mr. Dulles, you were referring to the page lettered "O"?

Mr. DULLES. That is correct; yes.

Mr. JENNER. I had digressed or interrupted at that point because you, for the first time, made reference to an entry in your address book made by Mr. Oswald.

Mr. Chairman, I offer in evidence the document identified as Exhibit 401.

Mr. McCLOY. Where is that----

Mr. JENNER. 402 rather. That is the address book.

Mr. McCLOY. It may be admitted.

(Commission Exhibit No. 402 was received in evidence.)

Mr. JENNER. And you were relating that you inquired as to how you could reach them if you had to reach them, and Mr. Lee Oswald wrote----

Mrs. PAINE. His work, the name of the company and the telephone number.

Mr. JENNER. I take it they did not have a telephone?

Mrs. PAINE. They did not; no.

Mr. JENNER. Did they ever have a telephone even when they were in New Orleans?

Mrs. PAINE. No; they did not.

Mr. JENNER. When they came back again to Dallas, they did not?

Mrs. PAINE. They did not.

(At this point in the proceedings Senator Cooper left the Commission hearing room.)

Mr. JENNER. Now, was the April 2d occasion the second time that you had seen Lee----

Mrs. PAINE. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Oswald? You had not seen him in the interim?

Mrs. PAINE. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. When next did you see him?

Mrs. PAINE. I next saw him on the 20th of April at a picnic at a park near where they lived on Neely Street.

Mr. JENNER. In between certainly the 2d of April and, possibly, in that period from the 8th, 9th, 10th and 11th, let us take that period up, until the time of the 20th, did you see Marina Oswald in between?

Mrs. PAINE. Did you say between the 2d----

Mr. JENNER. Between the 8th and 10th through the 20th.

Mrs. PAINE. I guess not; between the 11th or so and the 20th.

Mr. JENNER. Is that your best recollection?

Mrs. PAINE. So far as I know, no.

Mr. JENNER. How did you communicate with her about the picnic?

Mrs. PAINE. Probably by letter.

Mr. JENNER. By a letter. Do you have that letter?

Mrs. PAINE. I have--I don't know if I have it. I have a letter that closes "October 20th" in my hand, a scratch note.

Mr. JENNER. Could I look at that correspondence this evening?

Mrs. PAINE. At the same time.

Mr. JENNER. Thank you.

Then the next occasion was when you had the picnic on the 20th, is that right?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. I notice in that entry what looks to me like "Miss Mary 7:15." What is the significance of that?

Mrs. PAINE. That is probably going out in the evening. It had no relationship with the picnic at all. It has a relationship with a dinner group which is at the time, you see the line "dinner group--7:15 Miss Mary," who is a babysitter.

Mr. JENNER. That entry has nothing to do with the Oswalds?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. Without elaborating, please, Mrs. Paine, what would the subjects of discussion between you and Marina and Mr. Oswald have been at the picnic?

Mrs. PAINE. At the picnic?

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mrs. PAINE. He spent most of his time fishing. We saw almost nothing of him and heard virtually nothing from him. I was impressed with his unwillingness to be sociable really in this situation. He came to eat when it was time to, and complained about the food.

Mr. JENNER. Did he complain about the food?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Was your husband present at this picnic?

Mrs. PAINE. No; he was not.

Mr. DULLES. Did you supply the food?

Mrs. PAINE. No; Marina had cooked it. He complained about it. He caught a fish, as I recall, and took it home to be cleaned. I hardly know who would clean it.

Representative FORD. Who did clean it?

Mrs. PAINE. I don't know. I left about that time.

Mr. JENNER. What discussion occurred between you and Lee Oswald, if any, with respect to his life in Russia on that occasion?

Mrs. PAINE. None.

Mr. JENNER. Did you have any conversation with him other than some pleasantries?

Mrs. PAINE. I don't believe so. I can't even think of the pleasantry.

Mr. DULLES. As I understand it, as you were sitting there, the picnic took place in the park----

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. DULLES. What was he doing?

Mrs. PAINE. He was way over at the lake fishing.

Mr. DULLES. He was over fishing at the lake?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Did any further discussion occur between you and Marina on that occasion, or on any interim occasion, of Mr. Oswald's desire to have her return to Russia or the fact that she did not wish the Russian emigré group to know she was pregnant and was about to have a child?

Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall specifically. I did feel that it wasn't a particularly happy occasion. I don't recall it with lightness.

Mr. JENNER. Was he out of work at that time or not?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; he was out of work. I knew at that time he was out of work. Whether I found out that morning or the previous time I had seen her I don't recall. I only recall when she said he was out of work she also said he had been out of work for a week or a few days before he told her.

Mr. JENNER. I would like to have you draw on your recollection as closely as you can. Did you learn of his being out of work from him or from Marina?

Mrs. PAINE. From her.

Mr. JENNER. What did she say on that subject as to whether he was discharged or whether he had left his employment, or did she say anything in that area?

Mrs. PAINE. I judged he had been discharged.

Mr. JENNER. Give me your best recollection of what she said.

Mrs. PAINE. Do you want something else?

Mr. JENNER. Give me your best recollection of what she said, Mrs. Paine.

Mrs. PAINE. I can't recall it that closely.

Mr. JENNER. You next have an entry on April 24 reading "Lee and Marina." Do you find it?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Was that a meeting with Lee Harvey Oswald and his wife, Marina?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Where was that held?

Mrs. PAINE. That was to be a visit at the apartment on Neely Street.

Mr. JENNER. At their apartment?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Did it take place?

Mrs. PAINE. I arrived and found that he was packed to go to New Orleans.

Mr. JENNER. Was this a surprise to you?

Mrs. PAINE. This was a distinct surprise.

Mr. JENNER. Had there been some communication between you and the Oswalds about your visiting them on the 24th of April?

Mrs. PAINE. It had been arranged that I would come over to visit as much as these other visits had been arranged, just with Marina to talk.

Mr. JENNER. Had you had any visit with Marina between the 20th of April and the 24th?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. None whatsoever?

Mrs. PAINE. None.

Mr. JENNER. Had you arranged on the 20th to visit on the 24th?

Mrs. PAINE. Probably.

Mr. JENNER. That is your best recollection?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. What time of day did you arrive, or night?

Mrs. PAINE. Mid-morning, perhaps around 10.

Mr. JENNER. And then you found him packed or packing to leave?

Mrs. PAINE. He was fully packed. I was evidently expected. I and my car, because he asked if I could take these bags and duffel bags, suitcases, to the bus station for him.

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mrs. PAINE. Where he would buy a ticket to go to New Orleans, and he said he had not been able to----

Mr. JENNER. What he said to you is what I am interested in.

Mrs. PAINE. That he said----

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mrs. PAINE. He said he had not been able to find work in Dallas, around Dallas, and Marina suggested going to New Orleans, which is where he had been born.

Mr. DULLES. He said she had suggested?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes. That is my best recollection.

Mr. JENNER. Was Marina present now while he is relating this to you?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I think so.

Mr. JENNER. She was present. Was he speaking in Russian or in English?

Mrs. PAINE. I think he must have been speaking in English when he asked me to take the things to the bus station and explained that he was going to look for work.

Mr. JENNER. Your best recollection is that this was in English?

Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall. It could well have been in Russian also. He didn't like to speak English to me. He preferred to speak Russian.

The CHAIRMAN. To you?

Mrs. PAINE. To me; yes.

Representative FORD. Did he ever indicate why?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. I think you said to me this morning, and please correct me if my recollection is not good, that he always spoke to you in Russian.

Mrs. PAINE. With, perhaps, a couple of rare exceptions, yes, he spoke to me in Russian. When I tried to teach him to drive I tried to explain to him, proceeded to explain to him in English.

Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, you tried to teach him to do what?

Mrs. PAINE. To drive. This is later.

Mr. JENNER. Drive, yes.

Mrs. PAINE. But he would answer me in Russian, which is a way of getting the person to go back to Russian. But I couldn't explain driving in Russian, so I did it in English.

Mr. JENNER. That incident, Mrs. Paine, is very important, and we will get to that at a later stage as to your efforts to teach him to drive.

Going back to this 24th of April, there was here, this was, a complete surprise to you. You arrived at the home and this man was all packed to go to New Orleans.

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Had you had any discussion with Marina about her coming to live with you of which she was aware prior to this occasion on April 24?

Mrs. PAINE. I had discussed with her the possibility of her coming at the time the baby was expected.

Mr. JENNER. When was the baby expected?

Mrs. PAINE. Mid-October.

Mr. JENNER. But there had been no discussion up to April 24, to your recollection, even about your inviting Marina to come to live with you?

Mrs. PAINE. You mean on a more permanent basis, other than to stay when the baby was due?

Mr. JENNER. Yes; which would be in the fall of the year.

Mrs. PAINE. That is right. There was none.

Mr. JENNER. There was no discussion about her coming to live with you in the spring around about this time?

Mrs. PAINE. I remember feeling when I arrived that they were, and probably appropriately, making their own plans, and wondering whether I should have already made this invitation, but I had not.

Mr. JENNER. You say they were already making their own plans; are you seeking to imply that they had some notion she might join you?

Mrs. PAINE. No; I don't think there was any notion. I am trying to say I recall that I hadn't made that invitation at that time.

Mr. JENNER. To the best of your recollection it is now that you had not discussed the subject with Marina up to this occasion?

Mrs. PAINE. Not the subject of staying on with me as an alternative to going back to Russia.

Mr. JENNER. Only staying with you in the fall?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. When the baby came?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. What did you say, Mrs. Paine--excuse me. First, have you exhausted your recollection of everything that Lee Oswald said on that occasion when you arrived there?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. What did you say?

Mrs. PAINE. I said, yes, I would take his bags to the station if he wanted me to.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

Mrs. PAINE. And we then did.

Mr. JENNER. You just left?

Mrs. PAINE. Take them to the bus station to be checked.

Mr. JENNER. Did Marina accompany you?

Mrs. PAINE. Marina went, and he checked the baggage. It was rather more than he could have carried on the city bus, and I am sure he preferred me to a taxi because I don't cost as much.

Mr. JENNER. You didn't cost anything?

Mrs. PAINE. That is right. And he then bought a ticket, he bought a ticket for Marina, I mean I was thinking, while he was in the bus station, and suggested that it would be a very difficult thing for a pregnant woman with a small child to take a 12-hour, 13-hour bus trip to New Orleans, and suggested that I drive her down with June.

Mr. JENNER. You volunteered this?

Mrs. PAINE. I volunteered this, and suggested further that instead of her staying at her--at the apartment, as was planned at that time, while waiting to hear from him, that she come and stay at my house where he would reach us by phone, and where she would have someone else with her while she waited to hear if he got work.

Mr. JENNER. This was the conversation between you and Lee Harvey Oswald? Was it in English or in Russian?

Mrs. PAINE. Probably in Russian. I would think so, because I wanted her to understand.

Mr. JENNER. Was Marina along?

Mrs. PAINE. She was present.

Mr. JENNER. She was present; I see.

Representative FORD. This took place where, in the car?

Mrs. PAINE. Probably in the bus station--in the car near the bus station. He then took the bus ticket back, returned it, and got the money.

The CHAIRMAN. Ticket for her?

Mrs. PAINE. Ticket for her.

Mr. DULLES. Her bus ticket?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; and he left some money for her for buying things in the next few days before she could join him.

Mr. JENNER. Did he get on the bus then and depart?

Mrs. PAINE. No; the bus left in the evening. We all drove back to the apartment after he had checked the baggage, and he helped load the baby things and things that Marina would need during the next few days into my car, and we emptied what was left there of the things that were in the apartment, and which belonged to them, and then drove, I drove with Marina and June and my two children back to my house, and he stayed at the apartment. He was scheduled to leave by bus, city bus, and an interstate bus that evening.

Mr. JENNER. I take it then, Mrs. Paine, that your impression was that it was contemplated, when you arrived at the Oswalds that morning, that Mrs. Oswald, Marina, and her child June, and her husband, Lee, were contemplating going to New Orleans together that day?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. Am I wrong?

Mrs. PAINE. That is wrong. She was to have stayed in the apartment.

Mr. JENNER. I see.

Mrs. PAINE. And wait to hear from him.

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mrs. PAINE. If they had been going together that would not have been the hardship on her, but that traveling alone was, I felt.

Representative FORD. Why did he buy the ticket for her at the----

Mrs. PAINE. To leave with her so that she could follow him when he called, to leave the ticket in her hand as a means of her following him. I haven't been clear.

Mr. JENNER. It was a little indefinite.

Mr. DULLES. I thought the ticket had been redeemed; then he bought another ticket?

Mrs. PAINE. He bought a ticket for himself and a ticket for her.

Mr. DULLES. You said, "I will take her," and then he redeemed the ticket for her, and gave her the cash?

Mr. JENNER. Gave her some money?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. But the ticket that he did buy for her----

Mrs. PAINE. Was to have been left with her.

The CHAIRMAN. Was for a subsequent date?

Mrs. PAINE. For a subsequent date following.

The CHAIRMAN. Yes.

Mrs. PAINE. That is it.

Mr. JENNER. That was clear to you on that occasion?

Mrs. PAINE. That was clear.

Mr. JENNER. She was scheduled to join him subsequently?

Mrs. PAINE. She was scheduled to join him subsequently if he did find work. If he found no work there would have been no point to her making the trip.

Mr. JENNER. Is this a discussion or is it your rationalization?

Mrs. PAINE. It was clearly said she would stay.

Mr. DULLES. I am puzzled. I am puzzled, Mr. Jenner, about this ticket business.

Mr. JENNER. I am, too.

Mr. DULLES. A ticket was bought for her on the theory that she was going with him first.

Mr. McCLOY. No.

Mr. DULLES. That is where I got off the track. He bought two tickets, then why was the ticket redeemed?

Mr. McCLOY. Because it was made clear by Mrs. Paine that she was going to take Marina down in her own car.

Mr. DULLES. But only going to stay with you during the period until he got work, hence she wouldn't need a ticket. You were going to drive her down?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. You would drive her down all the way to New Orleans?

Mrs. PAINE. In either case it was planned to delay going.

Mr. DULLES. She would go down if he got work, but she would not need a ticket if she stayed with you. Therefore, the ticket was redeemed.

Mrs. PAINE. Yes. But I did not think of this or suggest it until after he had already bought the ticket.

Representative FORD. May I ask this, Mrs. Paine? In the things that were packed when you arrived, or things that were packed while you were present----

Mrs. PAINE. Nothing was packed while I was present. It was already packed.

Representative FORD. Everything was already packed by the time you got there?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Representative FORD. Were any of the things for Marina or Lee packed?

Mrs. PAINE. They were all packed. I don't understand your question. All of the things he wanted to take with him to the bus station were already packed.

Representative FORD. Well, in that group of things which were so packed, were there things for Marina and Lee?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Representative FORD. I mean Marina and June, excuse me?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes. Some of their things were among those things, yes, I judge so, clothing. The things that remained were a crib, playpen, baby stroller, some dishes, some clothing.

Representative FORD. The things you would not ordinarily take on a bus, however.

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it would be very difficult. That was another one of the things that motivated me to suggest driving her down. I thought sending these by train, with the risk of their getting strayed or--it would be difficult, trying, for her to try to handle them, or convey them with her by bus--that would have been worse.

Representative FORD. But there were some things that were packed in the things that Lee was going to take with him that would include things----

Mrs. PAINE. That belonged to----

Representative FORD. To--to Marina and to June?

Mrs. PAINE. I would judge so simply by what remained. Surely it was not the total sum of her clothing and June's clothing.

Representative FORD. Which could lead a person to the conclusion that at one stage of their discussion Marina was going to accompany Lee to New Orleans.

Mrs. PAINE. Not from the time I arrived.

Representative FORD. From the station.

Mrs. PAINE. It was clear she would stay up in the apartment.

Mr. JENNER. Up to that time it appeared to you from what was in the duffelbag----

Mrs. PAINE. I think he was carrying all he could to lighten her burden. In other words, if and when she followed, he was carrying all he could.

Mr. JENNER. Representative Ford is interested in this, Mrs. Paine----

Mr. DULLES. I am puzzled, too.

Mr. JENNER. When you arrived at the Oswald apartment that morning, Lee Oswald had duffelbags packed and some----

Mrs. PAINE. Suitcases.

Mr. JENNER. Suitcases. He had in those suitcases and in the duffelbag some of the apparel for Mrs.--Marina?

Mrs. PAINE. Of course, I did not see it. I have to guess what was in it.

Mr. JENNER. But, from your knowledge of the household and afterwards, this was at least your impression?

Mrs. PAINE. That they must have included some of her things.

Mr. JENNER. Yes. Which, in turn, might lead to the inference that, therefore, they contemplated at that moment from what he was taking that Marina was ultimately to join him in New Orleans.

Mrs. PAINE. Oh, yes; absolutely.

Mr. JENNER. Is that correct?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes. Was that your question?

Representative FORD. Or even at one point in the process of packing, she and June were going to accompany him to New Orleans on the bus.

Mrs. PAINE. I didn't have that impression, no. No, he was going and happened to stay with an aunt and uncle where he could live without much charge. For her to come would have been quite a greater expense, and a risky one without a job, nothing coming in, so he was hoping that he could stay with the aunt and uncle while he looked, and then if he got remunerative work, get an apartment and call her to come, too.

Representative FORD. If that is so, and let us assume that is so----

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Representative FORD. It puzzles me that he went into the bus station and bought two tickets, one for himself and one for her.

Mrs. PAINE. How would she get there?

Representative FORD. Well, eventually she might have to go by bus. But why should he at this time make an investment in a bus ticket when there was no certainty----

Mrs. PAINE. Oh, yes.

Representative FORD. When she might follow? This is what puzzles me.

Mrs. PAINE. Yes. Well, I can only guess about this. I judge from his having done this that he certainly intended for her to follow, and it is also possible she couldn't have asked for a bus ticket herself. If he had written her and said, "Don't come to New Orleans, come to Nashville," and he had said, "That is where I have got my job," he might have felt she would not know how to go and get such a bus ticket.

Mr. DULLES. Is it also possible he may not have wanted to leave that amount of money with her to buy a ticket and preferred to leave her a ticket rather than cash?

Mrs. PAINE. This is possible, this is possible.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

Now, Mrs. Paine, in light of that speculation, tell us what discussion there was on the subject.

Mrs. PAINE. I think I have, that while he was in the bus station I thought how difficult it would be for her to travel alone with the baby, and all the things----

Mr. JENNER. And you raised that yourself for the first time at that point?

Mrs. PAINE. Then I said she might stay with me while waiting to hear from him, and that I would drive her down if we did hear that he had gotten work.

Mr. JENNER. Had there been prior discussion that it was contemplated that, if he obtained a position, she would join him in New Orleans, or wherever he obtained a position.

Mrs. PAINE. Yes. We had already talked about that at the apartment.

Mr. JENNER. And that had been discussed with her present?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And discussed in Russian so that she could have understood the discussion?

Mrs. PAINE. To the best of my recollection, yes.

Mr. JENNER. Now, Mrs. Paine, the staff is interested in Lee Harvey Oswald's luggage.

Mrs. PAINE. What?

Mr. JENNER. His luggage.

Mrs. PAINE. Luggage.

Mr. JENNER. Would you please, to the best of your recollection, tell us what pieces of luggage he had on that occasion, what they looked like, their shape and form?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes. He had two large marine duffelbags with his name on them, and probably his Marine serial number. It was marked with a good deal of white paint. It stood quite high.

Mr. JENNER. Were they up-ended when you say high? You mean standing on end, they were high?

Mrs. PAINE. Standing on their end they would come well above this table.

Mr. JENNER. I see. About 40 inches?

Mrs. PAINE. Something like that; I would guess so.

Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, I am interested in just that. Would you go over to the drawing board and move your hand, judge from the floor, and stop right there? We will measure that later.

Mrs. PAINE. Understand I saw those two later in my garage.

Mr. JENNER. I understand, and I will get to that. That is just about 45 inches, and there were two of them?

Mrs. PAINE. There were two of them. Do you want anything about the rest of the luggage? Does that interest you the most?

Mr. JENNER. Yes, I am interested, and I would like to stick with the duffelbags for a moment. Was there any appearance as to either duffelbag, which, to you, would indicate some long, slim, hard----

Mrs. PAINE. I assume them to be both full of clothes, very rounded.