Chapter II: Part 2

Mr. REDLICH. Mr. Chairman, if you would like, we could take a 3- or 4-minute recess and I could get the American Civil Liberties Union letter to Marina Oswald and introduce it at this time for the sake of clarity in the record.

Mr. DULLES. Good. It is a good time for a breather.

(Short recess.)

The CHAIRMAN. All right, gentlemen, the Commission will be in order.

You are familiar with, Mr. Dulles, you are familiar with, the hearing up to date. You go right ahead and preside, if you will.

Mr. DULLES. Mr. Redlich will you go right ahead with your questions?

Mr. REDLICH. I believe Congressman Ford, you said you wanted to ask your questions prior to your leaving.

Representative FORD. Do you wish to have that letter entered as an exhibit at this point before I ask several questions?

Mr. REDLICH. The witness has produced before this Commission a letter which I now mark Commission Exhibit No. 331 on the Dallas Civil Liberties Union stationery, addressed to Mr. John Thorne, James Martin, Mr. Sorrels, Secret Service, Mrs. Lee H. Oswald, and the Federal Bureau of Investigation.

I ask that it be introduced in evidence.

Mr. DULLES. Any objection?

Mr. LEECH. No.

Mr. DULLES. It will be introduced.

(The letter referred to was marked for identification as Commission Exhibit No. 331 and received in evidence.)

The CHAIRMAN. Have you seen it?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. REDLICH. Mr. Chief Justice, we have introduced that because just prior to the recess we were discussing it and Congressman Ford indicated he had to leave I believe and I wanted to ask some questions.

The CHAIRMAN. Go ahead.

Mr. DULLES. Could I ask one question on this letter for clarification? It is my understanding it is your belief that Mrs. Oswald received a copy of this letter in Russian?

Mr. MARTIN. Well, she received a letter on this letterhead written in Russian. Now whether it was an exact copy, I don't know.

Mr. DULLES. About the length of this letter as far as you could tell?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. DULLES. At about the same time?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes, it was the same day.

Mr. DULLES. That was the letter she crumpled up and put in the wastepaper basket?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. DULLES. But you retrieved it from the wastepaper basket, did you not say?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes, sir, and asked her to answer it.

Mr. DULLES. Where is that copy that you retrieved from the wastepaper basket?

Mr. MARTIN. I don't know.

Mr. DULLES. Maybe reassigned to the wastepaper basket?

Mr. MARTIN. It may have been, yes.

Representative FORD. I believe that was the letter that Mr. Redlich indicated he would get a copy from the Dallas Chapter of the American Civil Liberties Union.

Mr. MARTIN. Her answer is what he wanted to get.

Mr. REDLICH. I think Congressman Ford is right. We might be able to get both a copy of the letter and their answer.

Mr. DULLES. Their statement in this letter is the English of the Russian translation which they sent to her. I think it would be adequate, wouldn't it?

Mr. REDLICH. Yes.

Mr. DULLES. It seems to me it would be adequate for our purposes.

Mr. REDLICH. We will contact the Dallas Division on that.

Representative FORD. Marina testified here, and she has said elsewhere, that based on the facts as she now knows them, she believes that Lee was guilty of the assassination of President Kennedy.

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Representative FORD. Was that her attitude when you first met her?

Mr. MARTIN. Well, when I first met her, we didn't converse very well at all. There was lack of communication because of the language barrier, and I didn't discuss it with her probably until the latter part of December, although she was speaking fairly good English by the 15th of December.

Representative FORD. When you first discussed it with her, what was her attitude?

Mr. MARTIN. Well, she said she thought he was crazy.

Representative FORD. But did she indicate when you first discussed the question of guilt or not being guilty, what was her attitude?

Mr. MARTIN. She thought he was guilty.

Representative FORD. The first time you discussed the matter?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Representative FORD. Did she indicate why?

Mr. MARTIN. No. I asked her why, and she said it was just a feeling.

Representative FORD. At that point had she----

Mr. MARTIN. A woman's feeling.

Representative FORD. At that point had she been given or shown the evidence that had been accumulated by various agencies of the Federal Government?

Mr. MARTIN. I don't know. I assume she had through the FBI. The FBI were showing her pictures and numerous things. I was not in on any of the questioning at all.

Mr. DULLES. Had she read the papers or had them read to her as far as you know at that period?

Mr. MARTIN. Some of them, yes.

Mr. DULLES. Newspapers, I mean.

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Representative FORD. From that first conversation you had with her about this matter, the guilt of Lee Harvey Oswald, she has never changed her mind?

Mr. MARTIN. No, and I have never heard her say anything other than he was guilty.

Representative FORD. Did you ever discuss with Marina the conversation she had with Lee Harvey Oswald at the Dallas police station the day he was apprehended or the day following. Or at any time prior to his death?

Mr. MARTIN. The only time she said anything about it was that he told her not to worry and to make sure and get the--get June a pair of shoes.

Representative FORD. She told you that is what he said to her?

Mr. MARTIN. That is what he said, yes.

Representative FORD. There was nothing extraordinary that she told you about the conversation?

Mr. MARTIN. No, sir.

Representative FORD. Other than what you have indicated?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes. He said not to worry. Everything would be all right.

Representative FORD. Did you ever ask her about this conversation that she had with Lee Harvey Oswald while he was at the Dallas police station?

Mr. MARTIN. No.

Representative FORD. As her manager, as the manager of Marina, did you have anything to do with the change of her appearance? Many people have said to me the first picture they saw of her and the subsequent pictures they saw of her she was wearing different kind of clothes. She had a different hair-do, and so forth. Did you have anything to do with that?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Representative FORD. What was the purpose of that?

Mr. MARTIN. Just to change her general appearance so she wouldn't be recognized when she went out.

Representative FORD. Did she agree to this, was she willing to do it?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes. She didn't like her haircut particularly.

Representative FORD. She liked the previous way it was?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Representative FORD. How about the change in clothes, the type that she wore?

Mr. MARTIN. Well, of course, that was for the better.

Representative FORD. Did she like it?

Mr. MARTIN. She liked the clothes, yes.

Representative FORD. That is all.

Mr. MARTIN. She tried makeup but that didn't work, because she couldn't stand makeup.

Mr. REDLICH. We previously asked you, Mr. Martin, about various people that Marina Oswald knew in the Dallas-Fort Worth area and you have indicated the extent to which you knew them personally and the extent to which they had contacted Marina Oswald during the time she was in your home.

Are there any other friends of Marina Oswald's rather than those I have asked you about that you--who attempted to contact her while she was living at your home?

Mr. MARTIN. Ilya, I believe it is Mamatav or Mamantov--he is of the Dallas Police Department and he has asked of her how she is.

Mr. REDLICH. Has he ever seen her, to the best of your knowledge other than in an official capacity?

(At this point, Congressman Ford left the hearing room.)

Mr. MARTIN. Well, one time when we went to Sears, Sears Roebuck in Dallas, and walked into the store he was walking and practically ran into her, and they said hello and passed the time of day and he left.

Mr. REDLICH. There were no other friends of hers that you know about who attempted to see her or call her while she was living at your home?

Other than those we have already discussed on the record? If I mentioned the name of Mr. or Mrs. Teofil Meller--the first name is Teofil, the last name is Meller.

Mr. MARTIN. Well, there was someone that called the office one day and had a rather odd name, was that Meller, and said that Marina wanted to talk to her, and we took it just for a crank call. She wouldn't leave the number or anything like that. I am not sure whether that was Meller.

(Discussion off the record.)

(At this point, Senator Cooper entered the hearing room.)

Mr. MARTIN. There was no telephone number involved.

Mr. REDLICH. You have discussed at length the attempt of Ruth Paine to see Mrs. Oswald. Did Mike Paine ever attempt to see Mrs. Oswald while she was living at your home?

Mr. MARTIN. No.

Mr. REDLICH. Have you ever talked to Michael Paine?

Mr. MARTIN. No. When we went over to get the clothes, for instance, he stood back--I don't believe he said anything at all. It was a very odd situation. He was helping us move things but he didn't say anything.

Mr. REDLICH. Did Marina ever discuss Michael Paine with you?

Mr. MARTIN. No.

Mr. REDLICH. Only Ruth Paine but not Michael Paine?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes. She said they were separated.

Mr. REDLICH. Mr. Martin, did Marina ever discuss with you her husband's desire to go to Cuba?

Mr. MARTIN. She said that he had wanted to go to Cuba because he wanted--because he wasn't happy in Russia and he wasn't happy in the United States and then she said he wouldn't be happy in Cuba either.

Mr. REDLICH. Did she ever discuss with you a plan to hi-jack a plane?

Mr. MARTIN. No.

Mr. REDLICH. Did she ever indicate what steps he was taking to get to Cuba?

Mr. MARTIN. No. Not at all.

Mr. REDLICH. Do you have any knowledge at all of any plans he was making to get to and live in Cuba?

Mr. MARTIN. No.

Mr. REDLICH. Mr. Ford has asked you about the conversations which Marina had with Lee Oswald at the Dallas Police Station on November 23 and you have replied. I would like to ask you about any--your knowledge about any conversation which Robert Oswald had with Lee Oswald while he was in the custody of the Dallas Police prior to his death?

Mr. MARTIN. I have no knowledge at all of that.

Mr. REDLICH. You have never had any conversations with Robert Oswald concerning his conversations with Lee Oswald.

Mr. MARTIN. No.

Mr. REDLICH. Have you ever talked to Mrs. Marguerite Oswald concerning any conversations which she had with her son while he was in the custody of the Dallas police?

Mr. MARTIN. No.

Mr. REDLICH. Have you had any conversations at all with Mrs. Marguerite Oswald concerning the facts surrounding the assassination of President Kennedy?

Mr. MARTIN. No, I don't think any direct conversation, I mean between she and I. I was present at times out there at the Inn when she was talking to this person or that person. But I don't believe I have had any direct conversation with her at all.

Mr. REDLICH. Did Mrs. Marguerite Oswald ever discuss with you an incident concerning a photograph which was supposed to have been shown to her by agents of the FBI on November 23, 1963.

Mr. MARTIN. No, I have heard that through news media but that is the only place I heard it.

Mr. REDLICH. You have no direct knowledge of that incident yourself. Did Marina Oswald ever discuss that incident with you?

Mr. MARTIN. No.

Mr. REDLICH. Did Marina Oswald ever discuss with you her mother-in-law's allegations that Lee Oswald was acting as an agent of the United States Government?

Mr. MARTIN. No. She mentioned only one incident where the FBI came to their house when they were in Oak Cliff, and they took him down to the car, I believe he was about ready to sit down to dinner when they arrived, and they took him down to the car and talked to him, and Marina was upset because dinner was spoiling, and I think that is the only reference she has made to anything like that.

Mr. REDLICH. She has never discussed with you the specific claims of Marguerite Oswald in that respect?

Mr. MARTIN. No.

Mr. REDLICH. In the course of your conversations with Marina Oswald or in the course of the preparation of any stories or releases on Mrs. Oswald's behalf have you ever discussed with Mrs. Oswald the events of November 21 and the morning of November 22?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. REDLICH. Could you relate those conversations to us?

Mr. MARTIN. He came home Thursday night, which was unusual.

Mr. REDLICH. Just so the record is clear, I hope you are relating to us now what Marina Oswald has related to you and not what you have read in any publication.

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. REDLICH. All right.

Mr. MARTIN. And, let's see, this was sometime in December that she was telling me this--no, I remember when it was, when she was moving from the Inn to my home.

Mr. REDLICH. By the Inn you mean----

Mr. MARTIN. The Inn of the Six Flags. She was in the back seat and Leon Gopadze was in the front seat talking with her, and she told him that he had come home Thursday night and that----

Mr. DULLES. In Russian?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. DULLES. This was a conversation in Russian?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes. Lee translated it for me, Gopadze translated it.

Mr. DULLES. Afterwards or as it took place.

Mr. MARTIN. As it took place, well, it was immediately afterwards, and she made a comment that he had left his wedding band on the dresser, I think, and she got up the next morning she found his wedding band on the dresser, which was strange.

Now, that is the only thing that relates to that period that I have heard her say. Now, I didn't actually hear her say that.

Mr. REDLICH. You have had no other conversations with her with regard to the period of November 21 and the morning of November 22?

Mr. MARTIN. No.

Mr. REDLICH. Do you have any knowledge of the story which Marina Oswald prepared in Russian and which she has sent to this Commission?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. REDLICH. Could you state the extent of your knowledge?

Mr. MARTIN. I knew it was written, and written by her, and that is about the extent of it.

Mr. REDLICH. Was it ever translated for you?

Mr. MARTIN. Well, we have part of it translated, a portion of it.

Mr. REDLICH. Are there any parts of that story which you now believe to be inaccurate?

Mr. MARTIN. No, I don't have the whole thing translated, but I think everything that is translated, I have no reason to doubt.

Mr. REDLICH. Did you assist Marina Oswald in the preparation for her television appearance in January on CBS television?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. REDLICH. Are there any portions of that interview which you now believe to be inaccurate in any respect?

Mr. MARTIN. No. We set a format for CBS to use, specific questions, and Marina was not prompted as to the answers to give. Those were impromptu. But we went over the ones with her off the camera, and asked her the questions so that she would understand them, and then she answered them, and the second time she did it on camera.

Mr. REDLICH. To the best of your knowledge and recollection those answers were accurate?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes. I can't remember them. But none of them struck me as being----

Mr. REDLICH. Apart from the newspaper clippings which we went through this morning and afternoon, are you familiar with any other narrative prepared by or for Marina Oswald?

Mr. MARTIN. Prepared by or for?

Mr. REDLICH. Yes.

Mr. MARTIN. You mean other than newspaper articles?

Mr. REDLICH. Other than the newspaper articles which we discussed this morning and this afternoon.

Mr. MARTIN. Life magazine.

Mr. REDLICH. Did you have anything to do with the recent story in Life magazine?

Mr. MARTIN. No, we had nothing on that other than the picture. Time magazine, she was interviewed for Time magazine.

Mr. REDLICH. When was that?

Mr. MARTIN. Saturday--Friday--she was here in Washington.

Mr. REDLICH. If I may refresh your recollection, she completed her testimony before this Commission at approximately 5:30 on Thursday, February 6.

Mr. MARTIN. Well, I believe it was Friday. We held a press conference on Friday afternoon, and I think it was Friday night then.

Mr. REDLICH. It would be sometime after the completion of her testimony is that correct?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. REDLICH. Were you with her during the course of that interview?

Mr. MARTIN. It must have been Thursday night. It was Thursday night because Secret Service was still with her.

Mr. REDLICH. You believe this interview took place on Thursday night?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. REDLICH. That would be February 6?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. REDLICH. Were you with her during the course of this interview?

Mr. MARTIN. Part of the time. I left John Thorne and Marina and the Time reporter at the table. June was restless, and I was walking her around the restaurant.

Mr. REDLICH. Have you read the interview?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. REDLICH. Are there any portions of it which you now believe to be inaccurate, to the best of your recollection?

Mr. MARTIN. I don't think so. I would have to re-read it to make it definite, make a definite statement on it.

Mr. REDLICH. On the basis of conversations which you had during the course of the testimony of Marina Oswald before this Commission and on the basis of conversations which you have had subsequent to that time, do you have any opinion concerning the truthfulness of the testimony which she presented before this Commission?

Mr. MARTIN. No. I think primarily she is truthful, and I think that under oath she would tell the truth.

Mr. REDLICH. Are you still Mrs. Oswald's business representative?

Mr. MARTIN. According to the contract, yes. According to my contract with her.

Mr. REDLICH. Have you received any communication from her which raises questions as to whether you are still her business representative?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. Are we really concerned with that?

Mr. REDLICH. Mr. Chairman, I intend to ask the witness why he was discharged in terms of whether it had anything to do with any business negotiations or anything to do with the testimony of Mrs. Oswald before this Commission.

The CHAIRMAN. You can ask him if it has anything to do with her testimony. We are not interested in her business affairs.

Mr. REDLICH. I merely wanted to establish the fact of----

The CHAIRMAN. This thing can go on interminably with all this minutia and things that don't bear on what we are here to find out, whatever his business relations are with Mrs. Oswald, it seems to me is his business and not ours.

Mr. REDLICH. Did Mrs. Oswald's attempt to terminate the relationship with you relate in any way to her testimony before this Commission?

Mr. MARTIN. No. There was no reason given.

Mr. REDLICH. Did it relate in any way, in your opinion, to any information which you may have given to anyone else with regard to your knowledge of the facts concerning the assassination of President Kennedy.

Mr. MARTIN. No.

Mr. REDLICH. Do you know Jack Ruby?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. REDLICH. Would you tell us about your association with him?

Mr. MARTIN. Well, it is a very minor association. I had been working in the Statler Hotel in Dallas as assistant manager for maybe six months before I met him, and met him through some of the other people in the hotel.

Mr. DULLES. What year was this?

Mr. MARTIN. About 1955.

Mr. DULLES. I just want to get the general area.

Mr. MARTIN. 1955 or 1956. And as a club manager, I was club manager in Dallas also, and didn't associate with him at all, even on a bilateral communication through the clubs. But it was just a nodding acquaintance, you might say. I knew him by his first name. He knew me by my first name and we spoke when we saw each other and I think I have been in his place twice.

Mr. REDLICH. Do you recall the approximate dates of those visits?

Mr. MARTIN. Let's see, once in 1962. I had some gentlemen from New Orleans with me. They were visiting Dallas on business at the Inn of the Six Flags, and they wanted to see the Carousel.

Mr. DULLES. That is what you mean by his place?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes. So I called Jack Ruby and asked if it would be all right if I brought them down. We stayed approximately an hour and a half.

The other time was during the daytime, let's see, as it was then, I had--I was walking in that area and just stopped in to say hello. The club was closed at that time, not closed for business but it was before opening hours.

Mr. REDLICH. Those are the only times you have been in Jack Ruby's business establishment?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. REDLICH. Do you consider yourself a friend of his?

Mr. MARTIN. No. An acquaintance.

Mr. REDLICH. Have you gone out socially?

Mr. MARTIN. No. He came out to the Inn one time with some little gimmick. It is called a Detwist Board. It is quite a piece of plywood about like this with a round plate on the bottom of it, seated in ball bearings and you are supposed to stand on this thing to twist, and came out to ask me to see who to ask at the park to merchandise it, the Six Flags over Texas Amusement Park, and I told him. Now, whether he went over there or not, I don't know.

Mr. REDLICH. I understand that you have had a conversation with an aid of General Walker concerning the General Walker incident.

Would you tell the Commission about that?

Mr. MARTIN. They contacted us----

Mr. REDLICH. Who is "they"?

Mr. MARTIN. General Walker's aide, Mr. Moore or Morse, a tall thin gentleman, about 55 or 60, and wanted actually an interview with Marina which we didn't think was necessary.

They came out to John Thorne's office and we sat and talked. They were of the opinion--what they were trying to do was find out who else was involved--this was right after the announcement was made in the paper about Lee Oswald shooting at Walker. They were trying to find out who else was involved because General Walker is still in fear of his life.

Mr. DULLES. This was some time before the 22d.

Mr. MARTIN. No, it was after.

Mr. DULLES. After November 22?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes, sir. This was after the announcement was made in the paper that----

Mr. DULLES. Oh, yes.

Mr. MARTIN. That Lee Oswald had attacked him.

Mr. DULLES. The actual attack was in April. This was after the newspaper announcement.

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. After the newspaper announcements that Lee had tried to kill him which was after the assassination?

Mr. MARTIN. That is correct.

Mr. DULLES. Yes.

Mr. MARTIN. And they just wanted verification actually that or to try to get verification as to how many people were involved, and we told them that there was just one person involved.

Mr. REDLICH. At the time did you ask Marina about this?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. REDLICH. And this is what she told you?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. DULLES. The persons involved in the Walker incident?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes. She said that Lee did it alone without any help. There was no one with him.

Mr. REDLICH. Mr. Martin, I have at this time no further questions other than those which may be suggested by a perusal of the records which you have forwarded to this Commission.

As we indicated in the brief recess earlier, Mr. Dulles is able to be here at 9 o'clock this evening, and I would envisage then a very brief session at which time your testimony would be completed.

Mr. MARTIN. All right.

Mr. REDLICH. Are there any questions that anyone would like to ask of Mr. Martin at this time?

The CHAIRMAN. Would you like to ask your client any questions?

Mr. LEECH. No. I am not going to make that mistake.

(Laughter.)

The CHAIRMAN. All right.

Mr. DULLES. I have no questions. I will reserve them for tonight. I don't think I have any further questions.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Rhyne, do you have any questions you would like to ask. Mr. Rankin, are you through for the day?

Mr. RANKIN. Until 9 o'clock.

The CHAIRMAN. Well then, gentlemen, we will adjourn until 9 o'clock.

(Whereupon, at 5:15 p.m., the President's Commission recessed.)

Evening Session

TESTIMONY OF JAMES HERBERT MARTIN RESUMED

The President's Commission reconvened at 9:20 p.m.

Mr. DULLES. The Committee will come to order.

Will you continue with the testimony?

Mr. REDLICH. Thank you, Mr. Dulles.

Mr. Martin, at our last session I asked you whether you knew Jack Ruby, and you replied that you did. You indicated the brief contact that you have had with him and the two times, I believe, that you have been to his business establishment?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. REDLICH. Apart from your own personal contact with Jack Ruby, do you have any other information about him and his activities which you would like to present before this Commission?

Mr. MARTIN. No, nothing that I definitely know about him. It is just he is a city character. He is very friendly to everyone.

Mr. REDLICH. Please understand I am not asking you for rumors or that type of thing.

Mr. MARTIN. No, I know. Well, just what I know of him, he seems very friendly to everyone, and he is always around. You are liable to see him anywhere.

Mr. REDLICH. Has he ever been to the motel that you have?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes, I mentioned that.

Mr. REDLICH. Oh, yes.

Mr. MARTIN. He brought that twist board out there one time.

Mr. REDLICH. Never been there as a guest?

Mr. MARTIN. No.

Mr. REDLICH. I hand you a copy of an invoice for a Revere recorder and a 1,200-foot reel of recording tape, and ask you if you have ever seen this?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes. That is a tape recorder that I rented and recorded the----

Mr. REDLICH. I will ask you about it shortly. I would just like to know if you are familiar with it.

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. REDLICH. Mr. Chairman, I am marking this as Commission Exhibit No. 332, and ask that it be admitted in evidence.

Mr. DULLES. Any objection?

Mr. LEECH. No, sir.

Mr. DULLES. It may be admitted.

(The tape recorder and tape invoice referred to were marked Commission's Exhibit No. 332 for identification and received in evidence.)

Mr. REDLICH. Mr. Martin, I hand you Commission Exhibit No. 332, and ask you to tell the Commission the conditions under which this invoice arose?

Mr. MARTIN. We had Marina's manuscript interpreted by Ilya Mamantov, and this was part of it. He was only able to interpret about half of it.

Mr. REDLICH. He interpreted it and put it on tape?

Mr. MARTIN. And we recorded that on tape as he interpreted it.

Mr. DULLES. How do you mean interpreted?

Mr. MARTIN. He read it in English?

Mr. DULLES. Oh, I see, translated it.

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. DULLES. From Russian into English?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. REDLICH. When I asked you this afternoon about your knowledge as to the accuracy of that story, I take it your reply was based upon this translation?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. REDLICH. And this only encompasses about half of the entire story, is that right?

Mr. MARTIN. It is more than half, it is about 15 pages, I guess.

Mr. REDLICH. Did she consult with you at all in the preparation of that story?

Mr. MARTIN. No.

Mr. REDLICH. And there is nothing on this tape other than the English translation of that Russian story?

Mr. MARTIN. That is true.

Mr. DULLES. Do we have that translation as well as the copy of the original?

Mr. REDLICH. Yes, Mr. Chairman, we have the original in Russian and then it was translated by Mr. Gopadze, of the Secret Service.

Mr. MARTIN. Actually our translation is very poor. He was not able to translate properly into English a lot of the phrases.

Mr. DULLES. Who is "he," Illa? Isn't that Ilya, by the way?

Mr. MARTIN. I am not sure.

Mr. DULLES. That is generally the Russian, I don't know.

Mr. RANKIN. That is right.

Mr. MARTIN. It might be.

Mr. DULLES. Yes.

Mr. MARTIN. But he is professor at SMU. He has a list of titles that long. He is very well thought of. I think he works for Sun Oil Company, and is a well-respected individual. His wife and his mother, I believe, teach Russian also. I think his mother taught Mrs. Paine a good deal of her Russian.

Mr. REDLICH. Mr. Martin, I would like to show you Commission Exhibit No. 325 which was introduced earlier today. Mr. Leech, I believe you have a photostat of this. If you could hand it to me during the course of this questioning. I would appreciate it.

Mr. LEECH. Yes.

Mr. REDLICH. Thank you.

Could you tell the Commission what this document purports to state, and then I will ask you about individual items.

Mr. MARTIN. These are contracts that we have made both in writing and verbally for Marina Oswald's right, her story rights.

Mr. REDLICH. And the first item appearing on Commission Exhibit No. 325 is a contract with Texitalia Films.

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. REDLICH. Would you describe the terms and conditions of that contract?

Mr. MARTIN. Texitalia Films is planning a 60-minute technicolor documentary to start. They will pay $75,000 for World-Wide movie and the TV rights.

Mr. DULLES. Excuse me, is this a documentary of Marina's life?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes. Any movie or television appearances Marina would be paid $7,500 plus expenses for each appearance. Then for each personal appearance, for instance, the film opens in St. Louis on such and such a date and they would like for her to be there to make a personal appearance for the showing, the opening of the film, she would receive $1,500 plus expenses for each public appearance of that nature.

Mr. REDLICH. And this contract according to this exhibit was signed on February 11, 1964?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. LEECH. By her?

Mr. MARTIN. No, by me acting for her.

Mr. REDLICH. By you acting on behalf of Mrs. Oswald?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes, in accordance with my contract with her.

Mr. REDLICH. The second item appearing here is a contract with Life magazine. Would you tell the Commission about that?

Mr. MARTIN. Life magazine purchased the rights, North American rights on a photograph of Lee Harvey Oswald with a rifle and pistol, primarily for their use on a cover issue.

Mr. DULLES. That is what appeared on the recent cover issue, I guess, it was 2 weeks ago.

Mr. MARTIN. Yes, sir.

Now, that $5,000 has been paid. We have the $5,000 in an escrow account.

Mr. REDLICH. Did you actually have in your possession the photograph, a copy of which appeared on the cover of Life magazine?

Mr. MARTIN. No.

Mr. REDLICH. Could you tell us how this contract was consummated, in view of the fact that Life magazine apparently printed on its cover a photograph which you never possessed?

Mr. MARTIN. They knew the photographs belonged to Marina. They have a common law copyright, and the only way they could legally use the film is to purchase the rights from Marina.

Mr. REDLICH. Did Life magazine indicate to you where they obtained the photograph?

Mr. MARTIN. No.

Mr. REDLICH. Have you had conversations with other publications concerning that photograph?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes. I made the contact with the London Daily Mirror for the purchase of the British Commonwealth rights on that same photograph, and they guaranteed $2,200 plus 50-50 split on what they sold in the Commonwealth. It was restricted to the Commonwealth only.

However, the London Daily Mail came out with the photograph prior to the Mirror, and I was informed by Mr. Weggand of the London Daily Express that the Detroit Free Press had sold this photograph to the London Daily Mail for $500.

Mr. REDLICH. Do you have any idea how the Detroit Free Press obtained this photograph?

Mr. MARTIN. No. I talked to Ken Murray, who I was informed was the attorney for the Detroit Free Press.

Mr. REDLICH. Where did you talk to him?

Mr. MARTIN. At his home in Detroit.

Mr. REDLICH. By phone?

Mr. MARTIN. By telephone. And he stated that the photograph was public property, and not covered under common law copyright. I asked him where he got the photo, and he said he got it at the same place as Life did, through a leak in the Commission. I talked to Life magazine attorney--I can't remember his name. It is a very odd name. It begins with an "S". Now, Murray said that Life had informed him that they had gotten it from a leak through the Commission, and I contacted Life and he denied saying anything of the sort to Murray.

However, Murray insisted that that is where he got that and he figured it was public domain.

Mr. REDLICH. At the start of today's testimony when you mentioned the possibility of a leak with regard to this photograph, something that you said prior to the actual start of hearings, Mr. Rankin and I commented on that assertion.

Would you tell the Commission what we said?

Mr. MARTIN. That there was definitely not a leak in the Commission, and that you would certainly find out what Murray was talking about.

Mr. REDLICH. Did you talk to an editor of the Detroit Free Press with regard to this photograph?

Mr. MARTIN. I called at night. It was at night, and I asked for the news editor. He was not in, so I talked to a reporter, and he couldn't say anything about it. He referred me to Ken Murray and gave me his home telephone number.

Mr. REDLICH. The next item on Commission Exhibit No. 325 has reference to Stern Magazine.

Would you tell the Commission about that, please?

Mr. MARTIN. Stern Magazine we have been working with since the middle of December. They have been quite patient actually. For $12,500 they wanted Marina's memoirs and photographs, available photographs for use in Germany and Italy only. They wanted exclusive use in those two countries. Then they would endeavor to sell these same memoirs and pictures to other European countries, limiting it only to European countries, and take a 30 percent commission on any sales that they made, the remaining 70 percent going to Marina.

Mr. REDLICH. Has this contract been signed?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. REDLICH. Do you know when it was signed? Can you approximate the date?

Mr. MARTIN. I confirmed it by wire to them. It is in the exhibits.

Mr. REDLICH. We have not introduced----

Mr. MARTIN. You haven't come to that yet.

Mr. REDLICH. We do not intend to introduce the specific documents into the record, just this summary.

Mr. LEECH. Give him an approximate date.

Mr. REDLICH. You say it was confirmed by telegram.

Mr. MARTIN. Yes, it was confirmed by telegram to Spiegelberg.

Mr. LEECH. When?

Mr. MARTIN. In New York. December 16 at 2:45 p.m.

Mr. REDLICH. The next item on Commission Exhibit No. 325 also refers to Stern Magazine, an item of $2,650.

Could you comment on that?

Mr. MARTIN. This was a recent development wherein since they could not send an author in to talk to Marina, they purchased seven photographs for a total of $2,650, to take the memoirs later.

However, they will not hold off the memoirs forever.

Mr. REDLICH. These seven photographs are photographs of what?

Mr. MARTIN. Of Marina and Lee Harvey Oswald together and separate.

Mr. REDLICH. These were photographs which were not turned over to the Dallas police?

Mr. MARTIN. No. They were photographs that we were given prints of by the FBI. The FBI sent prints of these photographs to us.

Mr. REDLICH. Am I correct in assuming that all of the photographs which were in the possession of Marina Oswald and Lee Harvey Oswald, either in his apartment or in the Paine's apartment, were turned over to the Dallas police?

Is that right?

Mr. MARTIN. As far as I know.

Mr. REDLICH. To the best of your knowledge?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. REDLICH. And that any photographs which you have and which have been the basis of any contract are copies which were made available to you by some law enforcement authority?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes. Now, there was a check, there was a $250 cash down payment made on this $2,650. Then a check for $2,400; the check was stopped, payment on the check was stopped because of a letter written by William McKenzie saying that I had no authority to sign any contracts whatsoever for Marina, and that if they did use anything that I had sold them, litigation would follow immediately. So consequently they stopped payment on the check. I still have the check. It is still attached to the letter that was sent with it.

Mr. DULLES. Could I ask who is that check made out to?

Mr. MARTIN. Made out to me.

Mr. DULLES. To you as agent?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. DULLES. Or to you just in your name?

Mr. MARTIN. I think it is just made out to me.

Mr. DULLES. I don't know if it is important.

Mr. LEECH. You go ahead and I'll find it.

Mr. MARTIN. Under the contract all checks were supposed to be made payable to me. Then I would deduct my fee and forward the balance to Marina.

Mr. REDLICH. The next item on Commission Exhibit No. 325 refers to Meredith Press.

Mr. MARTIN. The Meredith Press is a book publisher with their main office in Des Moines, Iowa. I had talked with Mr. Ted Purdy at great length and on numerous occasions by phone. We had negotiated world book rights for Marina Oswald's story. For this Meredith Press would pay a $25,000 advance to her. Then on the first printing would be a 10 percent commission of the retail price of the book.

On the second printing would be 12-1/2 percent commission, and on the third and succeeding printings it would be 15 percent commission.

Now, of course, the commissions were to be deducted from the advance.

Mr. REDLICH. And this was to be her life story?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. REDLICH. Had you discussed with Marina at all the contents of this book? Had you started making any preparations for writing?

Mr. MARTIN. No. I am not a writer, and wouldn't know the first thing to do about a book. But we had negotiated with one writer, Isaac Don Levine, who Meredith Press felt would be the best writer available for this type of book because of the Russian attachment.

Mr. REDLICH. When you told us this morning of your initial concern over the Nixon shooting incident, did it relate to these various agreements that you have been working on concerning the sale of Marina Oswald's story?

Mr. MARTIN. Did it relate to them?

Mr. REDLICH. Yes.

Mr. MARTIN. How do you mean?

Mr. REDLICH. Were you concerned about the publicity, the effect of the publicity of the Nixon incident on these various agreements which you were negotiating at the time?

Mr. MARTIN. No. As a matter of fact, it would enhance the price of it.

For instance, the Post magazine, the Saturday Evening Post, said that they would like to buy American serial rights if there was something in Marina's story that the Commission did not know.

Mr. REDLICH. When did they tell you this?

Mr. MARTIN. Around the first of the year I guess.

Mr. REDLICH. Around the first of the year. Did Marina know about this?

Mr. MARTIN. No.

Mr. REDLICH. This is the Saturday Evening Post you are talking about?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes. I talked to a Mr. Black.

Mr. REDLICH. And the Saturday Evening Post said to you that they would buy the serial rights provided there was some information which would not be known to the Commission?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes. I told them there was no realm that would apply, and we closed negotiations.

Mr. REDLICH. And you say you didn't relate this fact at all to Marina Oswald?

Mr. MARTIN. No.

Mr. REDLICH. These negotiations with the Post.

Mr. MARTIN. No.

Mr. REDLICH. Was there in fact to the best of your knowledge material which she did not in fact relate to this Commission?

Mr. MARTIN. Not to my knowledge other than the Nixon affair.

Mr. REDLICH. And were you aware at the time she completed her testimony here that she had not related this information to the Commission?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. REDLICH. Was there any connection between her failure to tell the Commission of the Nixon incident and the negotiations, the temporary negotiations that you had had with the Saturday Evening Post?

Mr. MARTIN. No, none whatsoever. That was closed off at least 30 days before she testified.

Mr. REDLICH. Was there any attempt on your part or anyone acting on Marina Oswald's part that you know of to negotiate the sale of the information concerning the Nixon shooting incident?

Mr. MARTIN. No, not to my knowledge.

Mr. REDLICH. When Marina--did Marina ever give you an explanation for why she did not tell the Commission about the Nixon incident?

Mr. MARTIN. No. I have never talked to her about that other than the first time that she told me about it. I asked John Thorne if she had mentioned it. I didn't discuss it with her.

Mr. REDLICH. And since Marina Oswald's return from Washington after having testified here, you say you have never discussed the Nixon incident with Marina Oswald in any way?

Mr. MARTIN. No. I probably would have had there been sufficient time. Of course, she left my home the following day after she got back from Washington.

Mr. REDLICH. When you say you probably would have, in what way?

Mr. MARTIN. Well, since she didn't mention it to the Commission, I feel the Commission should know about it.

Mr. DULLES. Did you know at this time she had not mentioned it to the Commission?

Mr. MARTIN. I asked John Thorne.

Mr. DULLES. Oh, you asked John Thorne?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. REDLICH. What did John Thorne say?

Mr. MARTIN. Said she had not mentioned it.

Mr. REDLICH. Did you ask John Thorne why she had not mentioned it?

Mr. MARTIN. No.

Mr. REDLICH. Did John Thorne offer any information as to why she had not mentioned it?

Mr. MARTIN. No.

Mr. REDLICH. Do you know whether John Thorne had urged her to mention it?

Mr. MARTIN. No.

Mr. REDLICH. John Thorne was aware of the Nixon incident prior to Marina Oswald's appearance before this Commission, was he not?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. REDLICH. Because you had apparently told him about that shortly after you learned about it in January.

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. REDLICH. Did you discuss the Nixon incident with Robert Oswald after Marina Oswald's appearance before this Commission in February?

Mr. MARTIN. No.

Mr. REDLICH. You had not?

Mr. MARTIN. I don't know if I discussed it with him prior to the Commission's testimony or not. I may or I may not have. I don't know. I don't know whether I mentioned it to him or not.

Mr. REDLICH. Coming back to Commission Exhibit No. 325, the next item under London Daily Mirror, am I correct in assuming that this is, that this item refers to the rifle photo which you discussed earlier in your testimony tonight?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes, that is right.

Mr. REDLICH. Do you have anything to add with regard to that rifle photo that you have not already told us?

Mr. MARTIN. No.

Mr. REDLICH. Did you discuss with Marina Oswald at any time this rifle photo and the circumstances under which it was taken.

Mr. MARTIN. I asked her at one time why he wanted a photograph taken of that type, and she said she didn't know. He just wanted pictures taken that way.

Mr. REDLICH. Did she tell you when this photograph was taken in relationship to any other incidents such as the General Walker incident or the Richard Nixon incident?

Mr. MARTIN. No.

Mr. REDLICH. Did you know where the photograph was taken?

Mr. MARTIN. I don't know, I don't even know if it was in Oak Cliff or not. I have an idea that it was in Oak Cliff but I don't know whether I know that or whether I have read it.

Mr. REDLICH. When you say Oak Cliff, some of us don't live in Dallas.

Mr. MARTIN. It is a suburb of Dallas, a section of Dallas.

Mr. REDLICH. Are you referring to the area where the Neely Street house was located?

To refresh your recollection, Mr. Martin, the Oswalds lived in two places in Dallas. One was on Elsbeth Street and the other on Neely. Are they both in Oak Cliff?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes, Elsbeth Street is right around the corner from Neely Street, I believe they lived in an apartment on Elsbeth.

It was a group of apartments in one building, and on Neely Street, I think, that was similar to a duplex.

Mr. REDLICH. And you are not certain as to where this photograph which was the subject of these negotiations was taken?

Mr. MARTIN. No, except that the Elsbeth address, I believe, was a brick residence, I mean a brick apartment, it is a dark building, and the Neely Street address is a white building.

I believe the photo shows a white building.

Mr. REDLICH. On the basis of that you would conclude the photograph was taken at which address?

Mr. MARTIN. At the Neely Street address.

Mr. REDLICH. At the Neely Street address. When you were negotiating with various publications for this photograph, didn't anyone ask you when and where it was taken?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes, I told them that it was while they were living in Oak Cliff. I didn't say where or when.

Mr. REDLICH. No one asked you.

Mr. MARTIN. And they apparently weren't concerned with the where or when.

Mr. REDLICH. Did they ask you anything about the publication which Lee Oswald had in his hand?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes, and I told them that it was either the Militant or the Worker. I was not sure which one. I am not even sure whether either one.

Mr. REDLICH. Your copy of the photograph did not indicate clearly which one it was?

Mr. MARTIN. Correct.

Mr. REDLICH. Do you now know which one it was?

Mr. MARTIN. No.

Mr. DULLES. Are you sure it is one of the two?

Mr. MARTIN. No, I am not. I assume that it would be one of the two.

Mr. REDLICH. For the record it is the Militant.

Mr. DULLES. It is?

Mr. REDLICH. Is there anything about the circumstances of this photograph, including the rifle, the pistol, the time, the place, anything concerning this photograph that you have not told this Commission about which you have knowledge?

Mr. MARTIN. No.

Mr. REDLICH. The last item on Commission Exhibit No. 325 is This Week magazine, $1,000. Could you tell us about that. At the conclusion of this list I will ask if there is anything else. We are now at This Week magazine.

Mr. MARTIN. When Marina was here in Washington, she had the press conference, and at the end of the press conference she mentioned, she made a statement "Now I go to church." On the way to the CBS studios we passed a Russian Orthodox Church, and she remarked about it, that she would like to come back and go inside, see what it looked like. Someone in This Week magazine caught that statement, and wanted to write a short article on Marina going to church, and that is what that is.

Mr. REDLICH. What happened? Could you tell us how this article got written?

Mr. MARTIN. It hasn't been written.

Mr. REDLICH. Did the reporter accompany Mrs. Oswald to church?

Mr. MARTIN. Oh, no. Actually when the television interview was over, we came back and went to the church, but the church was locked and we didn't get in at all. Now this contact was made after we left Washington. This Week magazine contacted us after, not while we were still here.

Mr. REDLICH. And what was the subject matter of this article specifically supposed to be?

Mr. MARTIN. The title of it was supposed to be "I go to church," and it would be an article written on Marina going to church.

Mr. REDLICH. Mr. Martin, the total figure on the bottom of Commission Exhibit No. 325 is $132,350. This presumably does not include any future royalties, is that correct?

Mr. MARTIN. That is correct.

Mr. REDLICH. Have you made an estimate as to the total earnings which would accrue as a result of these contractual arrangements?

Mr. MARTIN. It should be approximately $300,000 at a maximum, depending on what American serial rights and British Commonwealth serial rights, Asiatic serial rights would bring.

Mr. REDLICH. You say the maximum of $300,000?

Mr. MARTIN. I think so.

Mr. LEECH. Of those contracts?

Mr. REDLICH. That is what I am asking about are these.

Mr. MARTIN. Of these contracts, yes.

Mr. REDLICH. Could you tell us about any other contractual arrangements that you have made or are negotiating on behalf of Marina Oswald?

Mr. MARTIN. There are no others. I will have to refer to things. We had an offer from Australia and also from New Zealand as far as this photograph is concerned. However, it was thrown to the wind by the Detroit Free Press, so they got it from Detroit Free Press, we have been offered--we have not received an offer. The Australian newspaper----

Mr. DULLES. Do you need these details do you think?

Mr. REDLICH. I want to get the total figure, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. MARTIN. Associated Newspapers Limited of Australia would like to have Australian rights to a book that Marina would write, and also the London Evening Standard would like to have the British rights, of course, to the picture of Lee Harvey Oswald.

Mr. REDLICH. Mr. Martin, Mr. Thorne has indicated to this Commission that he estimated that Marina's earnings would approach approximately $500,000. Would you comment on that estimate?

Mr. MARTIN. I think it might be a little high. Of course, if you take into consideration she has $68,000, close to $70,000 in contributions alone, then the advances on this Exhibit No. 325, that is $200,000 right there. I think $500,000 might be just a little bit high.

Mr. REDLICH. The final document I would like to show you is a photostat of a letter which you presented to the Commission today, purporting to be a letter written in Russian together with an English translation. It starts, the English translation starts with the words "As the widow of Lee Oswald." I show you Commission Exhibit No. 333 and ask you if this is a photostat of the letter which you submitted to the Commission this morning.

Mr. MARTIN. Yes, apparently so.

Mr. DULLES. Who is that letter to?

Mr. REDLICH. We don't know yet.

Mr. DULLES. You don't know yet?

Mr. REDLICH. I will develop that in the questioning. I mark this Commission Exhibit No. 333, being a Russian letter and what purports to be its English translation and ask that it be admitted in evidence.

Mr. DULLES. Can you identify that any further than just a Russian letter?

Mr. REDLICH. On the top appears a date, and the day of the month is the 20th. I am unable to tell what month it is.

Mr. MARTIN. But the year is 1964, and the words "Dallas, Texas" then appear under the date.

Mr. DULLES. That helps identify it.

Mr. REDLICH. I ask that it be admitted in evidence.

Mr. DULLES. Any objection?

Mr. LEECH. No objection.

Mr. DULLES. It is admitted.

(The photostats of a Russian letter with an English translation were marked Commission Exhibit No. 333 for identification and received in evidence.)

Mr. REDLICH. Mr. Martin, with your permission I would just summarize the contents of this letter, and if I have summarized it inaccurately, just say so. This letter requests that the death penalty not be applied to Jack Ruby, the person who has been charged with the murder of Lee Harvey Oswald. Is that inaccurate?

Mr. MARTIN. No; that is correct.

Mr. REDLICH. That is a correct summary of the contents of the letter?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.