Chapter XIII: Part 13

Mr. ROWLAND. We got back there 14 after, I noticed the time on my watch, and the Hertz time clock I noticed was about a minute later.

Mr. SPECTER. Where was the Hertz time clock located?

Mr. ROWLAND. That was on top of the school depository building.

Mr. SPECTER. Was your watch synchronized with the Hertz up on top.

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes; I always set it by the same clock whenever I pass it. I pass it coming into town and I set my watch at that time.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, did you observe at any time the building which is depicted in Commission Exhibit No. 348?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes. We were looking around it, my wife and I, amongst the crowd, the different areas, making note of the policemen on top of the underpass itself, in that area, and the security precautions that were being taken.

Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Chairman, I would like to show the witness the same photograph, but a different picture on an exhibit marked Commission Exhibit No. 356.

Mr. Rowland, I show you a picture marked Commission Exhibit No. 356 and ask you if you can identify what that represents?

Mr. ROWLAND. That is Houston, Elm running in front of this building. This is the school book depository building.

Mr. SPECTER. Were you familiar with that building prior to November 22, 1963?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes; I have been in there on occasion.

Mr. SPECTER. You have been in the building?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes, to purchase books.

Mr. SPECTER. When were you in the building most recently prior to November 22, 1963?

Mr. ROWLAND. Within the first week of November. This was to buy a physics notebook.

Mr. SPECTER. What part of the building were you in at that time?

Mr. ROWLAND. Just inside the door of the main lobby.

Mr. SPECTER. On the first floor?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Had you ever had occasion at any time to be on any floor other than the first floor?

Mr. ROWLAND. No.

Mr. SPECTER. While you were standing on Houston Street in the various positions which you have described, did you have occasion at any time to observe the Texas School Book Depository Building?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes. When we returned to position "V" we stayed there, we began looking around. My wife and I were discussing the security precautions that were taken in view of the event when Mr. Stevenson was there.

Mr. SPECTER. Before you go on, let me ask you at which time was this on your return to position "V"?

Mr. ROWLAND. This was 12:15.

Mr. SPECTER. All right; proceed to tell us what you saw and heard at about that time?

Mr. ROWLAND. We were discussing, as I stated, the different security precautions, I mean it was a very important person who was coming and we were aware of the policemen around everywhere, and especially in positions where they would be able to watch crowds. We talked momentarily of the incidents with Mr. Stevenson, and the one before that with Mr. Johnson, and this being in mind we were more or less security conscious. We looked and at that time I noticed on the sixth floor of the building that there was a man back from the window, not hanging out the window.

He was standing and holding a rifle. This appeared to me to be a fairly high-powered rifle because of the scope and the relative proportion of the scope to the rifle, you can tell about what type of rifle it is. You can tell it isn't a .22, you know, and we thought momentarily that maybe we should tell someone but then the thought came to us that it is a security agent.

We had seen in the movies before where they have security men up in windows and places like that with rifles to watch the crowds, and we brushed it aside as that, at that time, and thought nothing else about it until after the event happened.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, by referring to the photograph on this Commission Exhibit No. 356, will you point to the window where you observed this man?

Mr. ROWLAND. This was very odd. There were--this picture was not taken immediately after that, I don't think, because there were several windows, there are pairs of windows, and there were several pairs where both windows were open fully and in each pair there was one or more persons hanging out the window.

Yet this was on the west corner of the building, the sixth floor, the first floor--second floor down from the top, the first was the arched, the larger windows, not the arch, but the larger windows, and this was the only pair of windows where both windows were completely open and no one was hanging out the windows, or next to the window.

It was this pair of windows here at that time.

Mr. SPECTER. All right.

Will you mark that pair of windows with a circle?

(Witness marking.)

Mr. SPECTER. What is your best recollection as to how far each of those windows were open?

Mr. ROWLAND. To the fullest extent that they could be opened.

Mr. SPECTER. What extent would that be?

Mr. ROWLAND. Being as I looked half frame windows, that would be halfway of the entire length of the window.

Mr. SPECTER. Is that the approximate status of those windows depicted here in Exhibit 356?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. In which of those double windows did you see the man and rifle?

Mr. ROWLAND. It was through the window to my right.

Mr. SPECTER. Draw an arrow right into that window with the same black pencil please.

(Witness marking.)

Mr. SPECTER. How much, if any, or all of that rifle could you see?

Mr. ROWLAND. All of it.

Mr. SPECTER. You could see from the base of the stock down to the tip of the end of the rifle?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. The barrel of the rifle?

The CHAIRMAN. Congressman Ford, will you excuse me for just a few minutes to run across the street to my office. You conduct during my absence.

Representative FORD. Will you proceed, Mr. Specter?

Mr. SPECTER. What is your best estimate of the distance between where you were standing and the man holding the rifle whom you have just described?

(The Chief Justice left the hearing room.)

Mr. ROWLAND. 150 feet approximately, very possibly more. I don't know for sure.

Mr. SPECTER. Are you very good at judging distances of that sort?

Mr. ROWLAND. Fairly good.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you had any experience or practice at judging such distances?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes. Even in using the method in physics or, you know, elementary physics of looking at a position in two different views, you can tell its distance. I did that quite frequently. And the best I can recollect it was within 150 to 175 feet.

Mr. SPECTER. Can you describe the rifle with any more particularity than you already have?

Mr. ROWLAND. No. In proportion to the scope it appeared to me to be a .30-odd size 6, a deer rifle with a fairly large or powerful scope.

Mr. SPECTER. When you say, .30-odd-6, exactly what did you mean by that?

Mr. ROWLAND. That is a rifle that is used quite frequently for deer hunting. It is an import.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you own any rifles?

Mr. ROWLAND. No; my stepfather does.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you ever gone hunting deer with such a rifle?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes; I have.

Mr. SPECTER. And is that a .30-odd-6 rifle that you have hunted deer with?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Is that a popular size of rifle in the Dallas, Tex., area?

Mr. ROWLAND. I don't know about Dallas. I do know in Oregon it is one of the most popular for deer hunting.

Mr. SPECTER. Was the rifle which you observed similar to, or perhaps identical with, .30-odd rifles which you have seen before?

Mr. ROWLAND. The best I could tell it was of that size.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you seen such .30-odd rifles before at close range which had telescopic sights?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes; one my stepfather has has a very powerful scope on it.

Mr. SPECTER. And did this rifle appear similar to the one your stepfather owned?

Mr. ROWLAND. From my distance, I would say very similar or of similar manufacture.

Mr. SPECTER. In what manner was the rifle being held by the man whom you observed?

Mr. ROWLAND. The way he was standing it would have been in a position such as port arms in military terms.

Mr. SPECTER. When you say port arms you have positioned your left hand with the left elbow of your hand being about level with your shoulder and your right hand----

Mr. ROWLAND. Not quite level with my shoulder, and the right hand being lower on the trigger of the stock.

Mr. SPECTER. So the waist of the imaginary rifle you would be holding would cross your body at about a 45-degree angle.

Mr. ROWLAND. That is correct.

Mr. SPECTER. How long was the rifle held in that position?

Mr. ROWLAND. During the entire time that I saw him there.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you see him hold it in any other position?

Mr. ROWLAND. No, I didn't.

Mr. SPECTER. For example, was he standing at any time in a parade-rest position?

Mr. ROWLAND. No; not to my knowledge.

Mr. SPECTER. Describe, as best you can, the appearance of the individual whom you saw?

Mr. ROWLAND. He was rather slender in proportion to his size. I couldn't tell for sure whether he was tall and maybe, you know heavy, say 200 pounds, but tall whether he would be and slender or whether he was medium and slender, but in proportion to his size his build was slender.

Mr. SPECTER. Could you give us an estimate on his height?

Mr. ROWLAND. No; I couldn't. That is why I said I can't state what height he would be. He was just slender in build in proportion with his width. This is something I find myself doing all the time, comparing things in perspective.

Mr. SPECTER. Was he a white man or a Negro or what?

Mr. ROWLAND. Seemed, well, I can't state definitely from my position because it was more or less not fully light or bright in the room. He appeared to be fair complexioned, not fair, but light complexioned, but dark hair.

Mr. SPECTER. What race was he then?

Mr. ROWLAND. I would say either a light Latin or a Caucasian.

Mr. SPECTER. And were you able to observe any characteristics of his hair?

Mr. ROWLAND. No; except that it was dark, probably black.

Mr. SPECTER. Were you able to observe whether he had a full head of hair or any characteristic as to quantity of hair?

Mr. ROWLAND. It didn't appear as if he had a receding hairline but I know he didn't have it hanging on his shoulders. Probably a close cut from--you know it appeared to me it was either well-combed or close cut.

Mr. SPECTER. What, if anything, did you observe as to the clothes he was wearing?

Mr. ROWLAND. He had on a light shirt, a very light-colored shirt, white or a light blue or a color such as that. This was open at the collar. I think it was unbuttoned about halfway, and then he had a regular T-shirt, a polo shirt under this, at least this is what it appeared to be. He had on dark slacks or blue jeans, I couldn't tell from that. I didn't see but a small portion.

Mr. SPECTER. You say you only saw a small portion of what?

Mr. ROWLAND. Of his pants from his waist down.

Mr. SPECTER. Which half of the window was open, the bottom half or the top half?

Mr. ROWLAND. It was the bottom half.

Mr. SPECTER. And how much, if any, of his body was obscured by the window frame from that point down to the floor?

Mr. ROWLAND. From where I was standing I could see from his head to about 6 inches below his waist, below his belt.

Mr. SPECTER. Could you see as far as his knees?

Mr. ROWLAND. No.

Mr. SPECTER. And what is your best recollection as to how close to the window he was standing?

Mr. ROWLAND. He wasn't next to the window, but he wasn't very far back. I would say 3 to 5 feet back from the window.

Mr. SPECTER. How much of the rifle was separated from your line of vision by the window?

Mr. ROWLAND. The entire rifle was in my view.

Mr. SPECTER. In the open part of the window?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And how much of his body, if any, was in the open view where there was no window between your eyes and the object of his body?

Mr. ROWLAND. Approximately two-thirds of his body just below his waist.

Mr. SPECTER. Up to what point?

Mr. ROWLAND. Mid point between the waist and the knees, this is again in my proportion to his height that I make that judgment.

Mr. SPECTER. So from the waist, some point between his knees and his waist, you started to see him clear in the window?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And from that point how far up his body were you able to see without any obstruction of a window between you and him?

Mr. ROWLAND. To the top of his head. There was some space on top of that where I could see the wall behind him.

Mr. SPECTER. What is your best estimate of the space between the top of his head and the open window at the perspective you were observing?

Mr. ROWLAND. Two and a half, three feet, something on that--that is something very hard to ascertain. That would just be an estimation on my part.

Mr. SPECTER. Is there anything else you observed about his appearance or his clothing or the rifle which you haven't already told us about?

Representative FORD. Was he facing toward you directly?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes.

Representative FORD. In other words, did you get a full view of his face and his chest and the front of him?

Mr. ROWLAND. He appeared to me as though he were looking out the window and watching the crowd in particular.

Representative FORD. Excuse me, go ahead.

Mr. ROWLAND. That is all right.

Representative FORD. Was he looking toward the corner of Houston and Main?

Mr. ROWLAND. No; I would say he was looking in the area or the general vicinity of where I was.

Representative FORD. And you were on the sidewalk on Houston in front of the building that you have indicated?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes. Now, I can't--here again I wasn't close enough to see his eyes but from the position of his head he was looking in that general area. It could have been that maybe he was--his eyes were a little bit off perspective and he was watching that corner, I don't know.

Representative FORD. In what position did you say his hands were on the rifle?

Mr. ROWLAND. One hand was at what is called the gun stock of the rifle, just above the trigger, it was around the rifle. The other was at the other end of the rifle about 4 inches below the end of the stock.

Representative FORD. Was the rifle held above his waist?

Mr. ROWLAND. The majority of it was, just a small portion of butt below his waist.

Representative FORD. The butt or the end of the rifle, the barrel end?

Mr. ROWLAND. The butt, the stock end, was below his waist. The barrel being pointed in the air toward the ceiling or the wall next to him.

Representative FORD. I see. The stock was down and the barrel was up.

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Were you able to form any opinion as to the age of that man?

Mr. ROWLAND. This is again just my estimation. He was--I think I remember telling my wife that he appeared in his early thirties. This could be obscured because of the distance, I mean.

Mr. SPECTER. Were you able to form any opinion as to the weight of the man in addition to the line of proportion which you have already described?

Mr. ROWLAND. I would say about 140 to 150 pounds.

Representative FORD. When did you tell your wife you thought he was in his thirties?

Mr. ROWLAND. Right after I noticed the man, I brought him to my wife's attention, and she was looking at something else at that time, we looked at that, and when we both looked back she wanted to see also, and he was gone from our vision.

Representative FORD. So she never saw him?

Mr. ROWLAND. My wife never saw him.

Representative FORD. Did you say at that time how old he was or how old you thought he was?

Mr. ROWLAND. I think I remarked to my wife that he appeared in his thirties, early thirties.

Mr. SPECTER. When, after you first observed him did you have a conversation about him with your wife?

Mr. ROWLAND. Right afterwards. There was--just before I observed him there was a police motorcycle parked just on the street, not in front of us, just a little past us, and the radio was on it giving the details of the motorcade, where it was positioned, and right after the time I noticed him and when my wife was pointing this other thing to me, I don't remember what that was, the dispatcher came on and gave the position of the motorcade as being on Cedar Springs. This would be in the area of Turtle Creek, down in that area.

I can't remember the street's name but I know where it is at. And this was the position of the motorcade and it was about 15 or 16 after 12.

Mr. SPECTER. Well, did you tell your wife about the presence of this man immediately after you saw him?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And what was the quality or condition of her eyes?

Mr. ROWLAND. She has nearsightedness and has to wear glasses.

Mr. SPECTER. Was she wearing glasses at the time?

Mr. ROWLAND. No, she wasn't.

Mr. SPECTER. Based on your knowledge of her eyesight, would it have been possible for her to have seen him considering your relative positions?

Mr. ROWLAND. Had he still been there she would have been able to acknowledge the figure with no description.

Mr. SPECTER. How long did you see him there in total point of time?

Mr. ROWLAND. It was all relatively brief, short time, 15 seconds, maybe 20. I was looking at the building, looking at the people hanging out of the building, I noticed him, my eye contact was at that position for 15 to 20 seconds. This is all relatively very short length of time.

Mr. SPECTER. Now----

Mr. ROWLAND. But a lot can happen in that much time.

Mr. SPECTER. When you saw him, you told her about him, and then did she look in the direction of the man?

Mr. ROWLAND. After she pointed something else out to me she looked in that direction.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you then look back toward the direction of, to the window where you had seen him?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes; I even pointed to it with my wife.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you look back at the same time she looked back?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And when you looked back what, if anything, did you observe in the window?

Mr. ROWLAND. There was nothing there then.

Mr. SPECTER. Following that did you and she have any additional conversation about this man in the window?

Mr. ROWLAND. We talked about it momentarily, just for a few seconds that it was of most likelihood a security man, had a very good vantage point where he could watch the crowds, talked about the rifle, it looked like a very high-powered rifle.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you mention that to your wife?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes; I did.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you described as fully as you can everything you discussed with your wife at that juncture?

Mr. ROWLAND. I think so.

Representative FORD. Was there anybody else standing close to you as you had this conversation with your wife?

Mr. ROWLAND. There was a policeman about as far as me to the flag.

Representative FORD. That is about how many feet, would you say?

Mr. ROWLAND. Twelve, thirteen feet.

Representative FORD. There was no one between you and the policeman in that line of vision?

Mr. ROWLAND. No.

Then there were three or four colored men just behind the elevator, and a couple on the elevator that had come up through the sidewalk. This was a distance of--this was on the opposite side of us about 15 feet, just a little further than the officer.

Representative FORD. There was no one closer to you and your wife than 10 to 15 feet?

Mr. ROWLAND. That is correct. That is one of the main reasons we selected that spot.

Representative FORD. Did it ever enter your mind that you should go and tell the policeman of this sight or this vision that you had seen?

Mr. ROWLAND. Really it didn't.

Representative FORD. It never entered your mind?

Mr. ROWLAND. I never dreamed of anything such as that. I mean, I must honestly say my opinion was based on movies I have seen, on the attempted assassination of Theodore Roosevelt where they had Secret Service men up in the building such as that with rifles watching the crowds, and another one concerned with attempted assassination of the other one, Franklin Roosevelt, and both of these had Secret Service men up in windows or on top of buildings with rifles, and this is how my opinion was based and why it didn't alarm me.

Perhaps if I had been older and had more experience in life it might have made a difference. It very well could have.

Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Rowland, did the man with the rifle have any distinctive facial appearance such as a mustache or a prominent scar, anything of that sort which you could observe?

Mr. ROWLAND. There was nothing dark on his face, no mustache. There could have been a scar if it hadn't been a dark scar. If it was, you know, a blotch or such as this, there was nothing very dark about the color of his face.

Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Rowland, will you recount as precisely and as specifically as you can, the exact conversation between you and your wife from the time you first noticed this man until your conversation about the man concluded, indicating what you said and what she said in language as closely as you can recollect it?

Mr. ROWLAND. That is a whopper.

I am almost sure I told her or asked her, did she want to see a Secret Service agent. She said, "Where," and I said, "In the building there," and at that time she told me to look--I remember what she was looking at. Right directly across from us in this plaza in front of the pond there was a colored boy that had an epileptic fit or something of this type right then, and she pointed this out to me and there were a couple of officers there and a few moments later they called an ambulance, this is what she told me to look at then, and we looked at this for a short period of time, and then I told her to look in the building, the second floor from the top and on that end, the two open windows, is I think what I said, and I said, "He is not there now."

I think that is what I said. She said, "What did he look like," and I told her just that--I gave her more or less a brief description of what he looked like, open collared shirt, light-colored shirt, and he had a rifle, I described the rifle in as much detail as I have to you to her.

Mr. SPECTER. You described the rifle to her in as much detail as you have to us?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes.

And then she said something about wishing she could have seen him but he was probably somewhere else in another part of the building watching people now. Then we were discussing again, just preceding that we were discussing the event with Mr. Stevenson, this was about 2 weeks beforehand, this was fresh on our mind, and right after that we started discussing that it was a security man.

We were looking around, we became very security conscious. We noted that policemen, I think there were maybe 2, maybe 3 on the viaduct itself; some 20 or 30, I would say 20 to 25 policemen being in that immediate area.

Representative FORD. About what time, as you can best recollect, did this conversation with your wife take place?

Mr. ROWLAND. About 5 minutes until about 22 after. I think I again looked at my watch.

Representative FORD. After you and your wife looked up and saw that there was no one in the window, did you ever again look at the window?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes; I did, constantly.

Representative FORD. And as you looked at the window subsequently did you ever see anything else in the window?

Mr. ROWLAND. No; not in that window, and I looked back every few seconds, 30 seconds, maybe twice a minute, occasionally trying to find him so I could point him out to my wife.

Something I would like to note is that the window that I have been told the shots were actually fired from, I did not see that, there was someone hanging out that window at that time.

Representative FORD. At what time was that?

Mr. ROWLAND. At the time I saw the man in the other window, I saw this man hanging out the window first. It was a colored man, I think.

Representative FORD. Is this the same window where you saw the man standing with the rifle?

Mr. ROWLAND. No; this was the one on the east end of the building, the one that they said the shots were fired from.

Representative FORD. I am not clear on this now. The window that you saw the man that you describe was on what end of the building?

Mr. ROWLAND. The west, southwest corner.

Representative FORD. And the man you saw hanging out from the window was at what corner?

Mr. ROWLAND. The east, southeast corner.

Representative FORD. Southeast corner. On the same floor?

Mr. ROWLAND. On the same floor.

Representative FORD. When did you notice him?

Mr. ROWLAND. This was before I noticed the other man with the rifle.

Representative FORD. I see. This was before you saw the man in the window with the rifle?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes. My wife and I were both looking and making remarks that the people were hanging out the windows. I think the majority of them were colored people, some of them were hanging out the windows to their waist, such as this. We made several remarks to this fact, and then she started watching the colored boy, and I continued to look, and then I saw the man with the rifle.

Representative FORD. After 12:22 or thereabouts you indicated you periodically looked back at the window in the southwest corner where you had seen the man with the rifle. What happened as the motorcade came along?

Mr. ROWLAND. As the motorcade came along, there was quite a bit of excitement. I didn't look back from then. I was very interested in trying to see the President myself. I had seen him twice before but I was interested in seeing him again.

Representative FORD. Did you notice a sedan come by with any officials in it at the outset of the motorcade?

Mr. ROWLAND. The first car in the motorcade was, I think it was, a white or cream-colored Ford. This appeared to be full of detectives or such as this; rather husky men, large men.

I think there were four in this car.

Representative FORD. Was this an open or a closed car?

Mr. ROWLAND. This was a sedan, the doors were closed.

Representative FORD. What was the next car you noticed?

Mr. ROWLAND. The next car was the President's car.

Representative FORD. Did you notice again or did you look again during this period of time at the School Depository Building?

Mr. ROWLAND. No. From where we were standing the motorcade came down Main, and when it turned on Houston we watched the motorcade, my wife remarked at Jackie's clothing, Mrs. Kennedy, and we made a few remarks of her clothing and how she looked, her appearance in general, and we also discussed--we didn't immediately recognize Governor Connally and his wife being in the car, we were trying to figure out who that was.

Then the motorcade turned on Elm and was obscured from our vision by a crowd, and we were discussing the clothing of Mrs. Kennedy at that time. My wife likes clothes.

Representative FORD. You never again, after the motorcade once came into your view, looked back at the School Depository Building?

Mr. ROWLAND. I did after the shots were fired.

Mr. SPECTER. Had you finished telling us all about the conversation between you and your wife concerning this man?

Mr. ROWLAND. To the best of my recollection, yes.

Mr. SPECTER. All right.

You have described seeing someone in another window hanging out. Would you draw a circle and put an "A" beside the window where you say you saw someone hanging out. That is on Exhibit No. 356.

(Witness marking.)

Mr. SPECTER. At about what time was it that you observed someone hanging out of the window that you have marked as window "A"?

Mr. ROWLAND. Again about 12:15 just before I noticed the other man.

Mr. SPECTER. You have marked the double window there. Would you draw the arrow in the red pencil indicating specifically which window it was.

(Witness marking.)

Mr. SPECTER. Will you describe with as much particularity as you can what that man looked like?

Mr. ROWLAND. It seemed to me an elderly Negro, that is about all. I didn't pay very much attention to him.

Mr. SPECTER. At or about that time did you observe anyone else hanging out any window or observe any one through any window on the same floor where you have drawn the two circles on Exhibit 356?

Mr. ROWLAND. No; no one else on that floor.

Mr. SPECTER. You testified before that there were other windows where you had seen people hanging out, is that correct?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you tell us and indicate on the picture, Exhibit 356, to the best of your ability to recollect just which those windows were?

Mr. ROWLAND. There was either two or three people in this window.

Mr. SPECTER. Mark that with a "B" if you would, please.

(Witness marking.)

Mr. ROWLAND. Those pair of windows. I think this was all on that floor.

Here on this floor.

Mr. SPECTER. Indicating the second floor?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Circle the windows and mark it with a "C" if you will.

Mr. ROWLAND. I think it was this pair immediately over the door, and this pair.

Mr. SPECTER. Mark one "C" and one "D," if you will.

(Witness marking.)

Mr. ROWLAND. Here I know there were two Negro women, I think.

Mr. SPECTER. Indicating window "C." You say two Negro women?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And were those women each in one window, both in one window or what?

Mr. ROWLAND. They were one in each window. Then at the window "D" there was one, one window open.

Mr. SPECTER. Which was that, indicate that by an arrow, if you please.

(Witness marking.)

Mr. ROWLAND. The one on the west side, and this appeared to have two heads just inside the window, no one hanging out the window as with the others.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe anyone else hanging out the window?

Mr. ROWLAND. There was someone on the third floor. I think it was--wait a minute--yes, the third floor had three adjoining sets of windows that were open. They were all open to the fullest extent they would open.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you mark those "E," "F" and "G," please.

(Witness marking.)

Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe any people in those windows marked "E," "F," and "G"?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes, and this pair, "E," both windows were open, and there appeared to be one man in the eastern window.

Mr. SPECTER. Which you have now marked with an arrow.

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. How about as to window marked "F"?

Mr. ROWLAND. Both windows were completely up, and there appeared to be several people in that window, four or five, a number that I don't remember, you know I couldn't see all of them.

Mr. SPECTER. How about window "G"?

Mr. ROWLAND. This again, both windows were open all of the way and I think there was one person in each window.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe any other people either through any other window or hanging out of any other window in the building?

Mr. ROWLAND. There was no one in the fourth floor to my knowledge, to my recollection.

There were what appeared to be secretaries, several young white girls or ladies, standing on the steps of the building in this general area.

Mr. SPECTER. Indicating the door of the building.

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Yes.

Mr. ROWLAND. And there was no one else in there, except I think there was a policeman in front of the door on the sidewalk.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you described everybody you have observed, with respect to everybody hanging out the windows?

Mr. ROWLAND. To the best of my recollection.

Mr. SPECTER. Or anybody you could see through the windows?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. As to the window which you have marked "A", that double pair of windows, which, if either or both, was open?

Mr. ROWLAND. The one on the eastern side was open and not all of the way it would open.

Mr. SPECTER. Is that the one you have marked with an arrow?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. How much of that window was open?

Mr. ROWLAND. It was open about that far.

Mr. SPECTER. Indicating 2-1/2 feet?

Mr. ROWLAND. Two feet.

Mr. SPECTER. Two feet.

Mr. ROWLAND. Indicating 2 feet. It looked like the windows might open 3--two-thirds or three-fourths of the distance.

Mr. SPECTER. How about the other of the windows in the double-set marked "A," was that completely closed?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. How about the windows in the group marked "B," was either of those windows open?

Mr. ROWLAND. They were both completely open.

Mr. SPECTER. Can you describe with any more particularity the people you saw in the window which you have marked "B"?

Mr. ROWLAND. There was a white man hanging out either "G" or "B," I do not remember which. He was the only white man, besides the man in these windows that I saw----

Mr. SPECTER. When you said "these windows" you mean the first window you marked with a black circle and a black arrow?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Is there anything else you can tell us about the people you saw in window "B"?

Mr. ROWLAND. I think to the best of my recollection there was either two or three people in window "B," and as I stated before, either "B" or "G" had a white man in the window. I do not remember which. I do remember it was one of the windows on the corner.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you recollect if the other people in window "B" were white or Negro?

Mr. ROWLAND. They were Negro.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, did you have any occasion to look back at window "A" from the time you saw the man whom you described as a Negro gentleman in that window until the President's procession passed by?

Mr. ROWLAND. Well, up until the time the procession was----

(Short recess.)

Representative FORD. I suggest, Mr. Specter, we resume the hearing.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you read the last question, Mr. Reporter, please.

(Question read.)

Mr. SPECTER. Would you like to start the question again or would you like the question repeated?

Mr. ROWLAND. I understand the question.

Let me see, the exact time I do not remember, but the man, the colored man, was in that window until the procession reached Commerce--I mean Main, and Ervay. I was looking back quite often, as I stated.

Mr. SPECTER. How do you fix the time that he was there until the procession reached the intersection of Commerce and Ervay?

Mr. ROWLAND. The police motorcycle was almost in front of me with the speaker on very loud, giving the relative position about every 15 or 20 seconds of the motorcade, and this is how I was able to note that.

Mr. SPECTER. Were you observing the window which you marked "A" at the time he departed?

Mr. ROWLAND. No, I didn't. I just know, I was looking at the crowd around, and then I glanced back up again, and neither did I see the man with the rifle nor did I see him. The colored man went away.

Mr. SPECTER. How long was that after you first noticed the colored man in the window "A"?

Mr. ROWLAND. Fifteen minutes.

Mr. SPECTER. Had you looked back at window "A" at any time during that 15 minute interval?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Had you seen anybody in window "A" during that time?

Mr. ROWLAND. The colored man was that----

Mr. SPECTER. So how many times did you notice him altogether?

Mr. ROWLAND. Several. I think I looked back about two, maybe three times a minute, an average. I was, you know, trying to find the man with the rifle to point him out to my wife. I noticed the colored man in that window. I looked at practically every window in the building but I didn't look at anything with the detail to see what I was looking for.

Mr. SPECTER. Over how long a time span did you observe the Negro man to be in the window marked "A"?

Mr. ROWLAND. He was there before I noticed the man with the rifle and approximately 12:30 or when the motorcade was at Main and Ervay he was gone when I looked back and I had looked up there about 30 seconds before or a minute before.

Mr. SPECTER. How long after you heard the motorcade was at Main and Ervay did the motorcade pass by where you were?

Mr. ROWLAND. Another 5 minutes.

Mr. SPECTER. So that you observed this colored man on the window you have marked "A" within 5 minutes prior to the time the motorcade passed in front of you?

Mr. ROWLAND. Approximately 5 minutes prior to the time the motorcade came, he wasn't there. About 30 seconds or a minute prior to that time he was there.

Mr. SPECTER. A few moments ago in your testimony you stated that in observing policemen in the area you had observed some officers on the overpass?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Approximately how far were you from the overpass at that time?

Mr. ROWLAND. 125 yards approximately.

Mr. SPECTER. Were you able to observe with clarity the individuals who were standing on the overpass?

Mr. ROWLAND. Not with detailed distinction. I do remember there were three women there, two or three men, a couple of boys, and two officers on the overpass itself.

Mr. SPECTER. How did you identify the officers as being policemen?

Mr. ROWLAND. They were uniformed officers.

Mr. SPECTER. What kind of uniforms were they wearing?

Mr. ROWLAND. Blue; I think trimmed in gold, uniforms.

Mr. SPECTER. Are those the regular uniforms worn by the Dallas police?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Where were you standing at the time you observed the people on the overpass whom you have just described?

Mr. ROWLAND. Position "B."

Mr. SPECTER. At about what time was it when you observed those individuals?

Mr. ROWLAND. This was between the time between 12:15 and 12:30. I think I looked more than once.

Mr. SPECTER. How many times did you look?

Mr. ROWLAND. I don't know really. I was more or less scanning the crowd.

Mr. SPECTER. Did the individuals present on the triple overpass change at the various times when you looked in that direction?

Mr. ROWLAND. I don't think so. I don't think anyone went off who was up there or anyone else went on.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you now relate what occurred as the Presidential motorcade passed by you?

Mr. ROWLAND. Well, the car turned the corner at Houston and Main. Everyone was rushing, pressing the cars, trying to get closer. There were quite a few people, you know, trying to run alongside of the car such as this; officers were trying to prevent this. The car turned--we had more or less a long period of time that they were within our sight considering some of the other people.

The car went down Houston, again turned on Elm, and it was proceeding down Elm when we heard the first of the reports. This I passed off as a backfire, so did practically everyone in the area because gobs of people, when I say gobs, I mean almost everyone in the vicinity, started laughing that couldn't see the motorcade. The motorcade was obscured from our vision by the crowd.

Mr. SPECTER. What would the occasion be for laughter on the sound of a backfire?

Mr. ROWLAND. I don't know. A lot of people laughed. I don't know. But a lot of people laughed, chuckled, such as this. Then approximately 5 seconds, 5 or 6 seconds, the second report was heard, 2 seconds the third report. After the second report, I knew what it was, and----

Mr. SPECTER. What was it?

Mr. ROWLAND. I knew that it was a gun firing.

Mr. SPECTER. How did you know that?

Mr. ROWLAND. I have been around guns quite a bit in my lifetime.

Mr. SPECTER. Was the sound of the fire different from the first and second sounds you described?

Mr. ROWLAND. No, that is just it. It did not sound as though there was any return fire in that sense.

Mr. SPECTER. What do you mean by return fire?

Mr. ROWLAND. That anyone fired back. You know, anyone in the procession such as our detectives or Secret Service men fired back at anything else. It gave the report of a rifle which most of the Secret Service men don't carry in a holster although I am sure they had some in the cars but the following two shots were the same report being of the same intensity. I state, because from a different position I know that the same rifle is not going to make the same sound in two different positions especially in a position such as it was, because of the ricocheting of sound and echo effects.

Mr. SPECTER. What is your basis for saying that, Mr. Rowland, that the rifle would not make the same sound in two different positions?

Mr. ROWLAND. This is due to a long study of sound and study of echo effects.

Mr. SPECTER. When had you conducted that study?

Mr. ROWLAND. In physics in the past 3 years.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you read any special books on that subject?

Mr. ROWLAND. Quite a few.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you recollect any of the titles and authors?

Mr. ROWLAND. No; I do not.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you take any special courses which would give you insight into that subject matter?

Mr. ROWLAND. This was more or less on my own initiative. The instructor gave me help and aided me when I requested this during my off periods of class.

Mr. SPECTER. What instructor was that?

Mr. ROWLAND. His name was Foster.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you recall his first name?

Mr. ROWLAND. Sam.

Mr. SPECTER. And at what school does he teach?

Mr. ROWLAND. He teaches at Crozier Tech, Downtown Technical High School.

Mr. SPECTER. Is he still there?

Mr. ROWLAND. To my knowledge.

Mr. SPECTER. How recently did you have a course with him?

Mr. ROWLAND. Last year, last school year.

Mr. SPECTER. Can you describe the second sound by comparison with the first sound which you have described as being similar to a backfire?

Mr. ROWLAND. The second to my recollection was identical or as closely as could be.

Mr. SPECTER. How about the third shot?

Mr. ROWLAND. The same.

Mr. SPECTER. Sounded the same to you?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you have any impression or reaction as to the point of origin when you heard the first noise?

Mr. ROWLAND. Well, I began looking, I didn't look at the building mainly, and as practically any of the police officers that were there then will tell you, the echo effect was such that it sounded like it came from the railroad yards. That is where I looked, that is where all the policemen, everyone, converged on the railroads.

Mr. SPECTER. When you say railroad yards, what area are you referring to? Identify it on Commission Exhibit No. 354, for example?

Mr. ROWLAND. In this area in here.

Now most of the officers converged on this area----

Mr. SPECTER. When you say "in here," I will get a black pencil here and see if we can draw a circle around the area where you have described the echo effect?

Mr. ROWLAND. The echo effect felt as though it came from this general vicinity.

Mr. SPECTER. Mark that with the letter "C" in the center of your circle.

(Witness marking.)

Mr. SPECTER. Now, as to the second shot, did you have any impression as to the point of origin or source?

Mr. ROWLAND. The same point or very close to it.

Mr. SPECTER. And how about the third shot?

Mr. ROWLAND. Very close to the same position.

Mr. SPECTER. Where did you look, if you recall, after you heard the first shot, in what direction?

Mr. ROWLAND. We were standing here at position "B." At the sound of the second report, I proceeded across the street. My wife was very anxious to find out what was going on. I proceeded to cross the street like this.

Mr. SPECTER. Indicating you were--she was pulling you ahead?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes. She was very anxious to find out what was going on.

Mr. SPECTER. That was at the sound of the second report?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes, it was.

Mr. SPECTER. And will you mark with this black pencil, with the letter "D," where you went to, as she pulled you across the street?

Mr. ROWLAND. We crossed the street in this area, proceeded down the sidewalk, around here, there was quite a bit of crowd, people were running.

Mr. SPECTER. Where were you at the time that you heard the second report?

Mr. ROWLAND. At the second report we were approximately at the curb, out from the curb, we were off the sidewalk.

Mr. SPECTER. At point "V"?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. How about the third shot, where were you then?

Mr. ROWLAND. At the third shot I was in this vicinity halfway to where we crossed the street to the end of the block.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you indicate with the letter "D" where you were at the time of the third shot?

(Witness marking.)

Mr. SPECTER. Where did you look when you heard the third report?

Mr. ROWLAND. Well, we were trying to actually see the President's car, that is what my wife was trying to do, and then I decided I might as well give in to her.

Mr. SPECTER. After the shots occurred, did you ever look back at the Texas School Book Depository Building?

Mr. ROWLAND. No; I did not. In fact, I went over toward the scene of the railroad yards myself.

Mr. SPECTER. Why did you not look back at the Texas School Book Depository Building in view of the fact that you had seen a man with a rifle up there earlier in the day?

Mr. ROWLAND. I don't remember. It was mostly due to the confusion, and then the fact that it sounded like it came from this area "C," and that all the officers, enforcement officers, were converging on that area, and I just didn't pay any attention to it at that time.

Mr. SPECTER. How many officers were converging on that area, to the best of your ability to recollect and estimate?

Mr. ROWLAND. I think it would be a very good estimation of 50, maybe more.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you know how fast the President's automobile was driving as it proceeded in front of you when you were standing at position "B"?

Mr. ROWLAND. Very slow pace, 5, 10 miles an hour.

Mr. SPECTER. When, if at all, did you first report what you had observed in the Texas School Book Depository Building about the man with the rifle to anyone in an official position?

Mr. ROWLAND. That was approximately 15 minutes after the third report that I went to an officer, he was a plainclothesman who was there combing the area, close to position "C," looking for footprints and such as this, some lady said someone jumped off one of the colonnades and started running, there was an officer looking in this area for footprints and such as this.

Mr. SPECTER. Was that lady ever identified to you?

Mr. ROWLAND. No; I do not remember his name. He introduced himself and showed me his ID.

Mr. SPECTER. I mean the lady you talked about.

Mr. ROWLAND. No; I don't.

Mr. SPECTER. Now as to the officer to whom you made a report, was he a State, City or Federal official, if you know?

Mr. ROWLAND. It was a Dallas detective.

Mr. SPECTER. And did you give him a statement or what procedure did he follow?

Mr. ROWLAND. It happened such as this: He was looking in this area for footprints or any visible marks. I started looking around also. I found a fountain pen that someone had probably dropped during the confusion or fell out of their pocket when they fell on the ground or such. I picked it up and handed it to him. I had on gloves, I wasn't to mess up the fingerprints because it very possibly could have fallen out of the pocket of the man who supposedly had jumped down.

Mr. SPECTER. You were wearing gloves on that day?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Was it a chilly day?

Mr. ROWLAND. The sun was shining, it was a fair day but the wind was blowing and it was breezy.

Mr. SPECTER. Was it cold enough to have gloves?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes; I had on my overcoat and my wife had a fairly heavy coat.

Mr. SPECTER. Proceed, and tell us what you did.

Mr. ROWLAND. I handed this pen to the officer and I started thinking and I went to him and told him again just before the motorcade came I saw a man in the building with a rifle, and he immediately took me to Sheriff Decker which, in turn, asked two other deputies to take me to his office. We went there to his office. There was quite a few reporters around, such as this. They took my wife and I to a back room and shut us off completely from the reporters and everyone. There was no one in that room for 4 hours but this sheriff and a FBI agent, Agent Sorrels, and a stenographer, and I think another lady and a man that had seen another man carrying a rifle in a case on the other end of town earlier prior to this time.

Mr. SPECTER. Are you sure there was a court reporter present?

Mr. ROWLAND. It was one of the secretaries from the office of the sheriff, stenographer who was taking, using an electric typewriter every time.

Mr. SPECTER. Was she taking down in shorthand----

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. As you could observe----

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Each word that you were saying?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Did she have any sort of a machine, such as a stenograph, as the gentleman who is serving as court reporter has?

Mr. ROWLAND. No; she took it down in shorthand and retyped it on an electric typewriter that she brought into the room.

Mr. SPECTER. Did she type up what you had said?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes; typed up three or four copies and then I signed it at that time.

Mr. SPECTER. I now show you a photostatic copy of what purports to be an affidavit which you gave to the Sheriff's Department of the County of Dallas, Tex., on November 22, 1963, and has been marked as Commission Exhibit No. 357. Would you take a look at that, take your time, of course, and tell us whether or not that is the affidavit which you took on the occasion which you have just related?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes. In fact, at this time I also noted that my wife dragged me across the street.

Mr. SPECTER. Just one detail on that statement: There is a reference here to the man holding the rifle being in a position which you describe as "a parade-rest sort of position." That appears----

Mr. ROWLAND. It does appear in there?