Chapter XV: Part 15

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. CROY. I was standing about midways to the ramp. Do you know how wide that ramp is?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there a line, a group of people in front of you?

Mr. CROY. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was this group, was it sort of in a line that stretched across from the wall to the railing across the Main Street ramp?

Mr. CROY. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How many people would you say were stretched across there?

Mr. CROY. I don't know. There was quite a few there, but I have no idea how many were there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, were there any people--as you turned back, were you also part of a line, a second line? Were you part of a second line?

Mr. CROY. Not that I know. I was just standing there. There were other officers to my right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. In other words, one straggled line, this first line in front of you?

Mr. CROY. What do you mean?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you stating there was a fairly solid front line of people?

Mr. CROY. About two deep.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you behind that group of people?

Mr. CROY. I was behind them.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How far behind them were you?

Mr. CROY. Oh, a couple of feet or 3 feet.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Back where you were standing, were people as closely bunched up as other people were?

Mr. CROY. There wasn't anyone to my left other than the two people I told to move back. To my right there were several other officers standing there with me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was Captain Arnett one of the officers?

Mr. CROY. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you show us where Captain Arnett was?

Mr. CROY. [Marks.]

Mr. GRIFFIN. How many people were to Captain Arnett's right?

Mr. CROY. I don't know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You say there was nobody to your left except a man with a movie camera?

Mr. CROY. He got back upon the railing.

Mr. GRIFFIN. At the time this man got up on the railing, there was nobody that you can recall to your left?

Mr. CROY. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, will you place on the map, on that chart, where you think Ruby, where you saw this man that you believe to be Ruby, moved from and to? Could you show us where?

Mr. CROY. Do you mean after I told him to move?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. CROY. I don't know where he moved to.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where was he when you first saw him moving? Did you see him moving?

Mr. CROY. Maybe I don't understand you. As he ran into the crowd?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. CROY. After Oswald?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. CROY. Where did I see him again? About right there [pointing].

Mr. GRIFFIN. Up in front of you?

Mr. CROY. Yes; well, to my side.

Mr. GRIFFIN. To your left?

Mr. CROY. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Would you put a "R" there where you saw him?

Mr. CROY. [Makes mark.]

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, was there anybody in front of him at that point?

Mr. CROY. Yes; there was reporters.

Mr. GRIFFIN. There were reporters. Now, what did he do as he got to these reporters?

Mr. CROY. He ran through them.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he push them aside, or what?

Mr. CROY. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see him push them?

Mr. CROY. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see a man shoved?

Mr. CROY. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Which man got shoved?

Mr. CROY. These reporters. He just lowered his head and ran through them like a fullback went through a line.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you feel this man move by you, or did you first see his motion when he was in front of you?

Mr. CROY. Caught a glimpse of his motion. I have a wide range. I could see over here. I saw a blur coming in, and, of course, by the time I turned, he was in position. He was already in front of me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, you can't tell from how far he had been running, can you?

Mr. CROY. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you able to tell if he had taken more than one step before you had seen him?

Mr. CROY. He had a good head of steam up, I will put it that way.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know Captain King?

Mr. CROY. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know Detective Blackie Harrison?

Mr. CROY. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you describe the people that you saw Ruby push through?

Mr. CROY. Well, it was just a group of reporters there trying to get closer to Ruby. I mean to Oswald.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were there any police officers near Ruby at the time that he moved through that line?

Mr. CROY. There were no uniform police officers. If there were some detectives there, I don't know, because I didn't know any of them.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, during this period that you were down in the basement, the 5-minute period that you were in the basement, were you able to distinguish the plainclothes detectives from the newspaper people?

Mr. CROY. No; I was in the basement longer than 5 minutes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. The period that you were stationed at the base of the ramp, the 15 minutes or more, were you able to distinguish the uniformed officers from the newspaper people?

Mr. CROY. Uniformed officers; yes. The detectives; no.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You couldn't distinguish them? All right. Are you able to describe the relative size of the newspaper reporters that Ruby moved there, in comparison to him?

Mr. CROY. No; because this man had run through, Ruby, if it was Ruby, was in a crouch. He was running low. The newspapermen were of average height and average build.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How could you tell that the two men he pushed were newspaper reporters?

Mr. CROY. I don't know. They might have been police officers.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did anybody that he pushed by have a camera in his hand or microphone or a pad of paper or anything?

Mr. CROY. I don't recall whether they did or not. They were actually standing in front of me and I was looking at their backs.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you seen yourself in any photographs that have been taken of the basement area?

Mr. CROY. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember where you saw that photograph? Was it a photograph in a magazine or newspaper or something?

Mr. CROY. Television.

Mr. GRIFFIN. A TV film?

Mr. CROY. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall what station you saw that on?

Mr. CROY. All of them. No; I don't. They just ran it and ran it and reran it, and every time I was in the room, someone said, "There you are," and I looked again.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was this a showing that the police department made to you, or were you shown any films by the police department?

Mr. CROY. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You saw this film on the regular, your home TV set, something like that?

Mr. CROY. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall in any of these films a shot of Ruby standing behind a very large man, standing right up at the back of a very large man, a very tall man, a man perhaps a head taller than he?

Mr. CROY. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. If you were shown these particular movie films, TV films that you saw, could you pick yourself out for us?

Mr. CROY. Well, the ones that I saw were the ones that I was trying to get the gun from Ruby, and the ones that they had taken after it was all over, and I was standing in the entrance to the jail office. Those are the only ones I have seen.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You didn't see a picture of yourself at the time Ruby started to move out toward Oswald?

Mr. CROY. No; I saw the reruns of it when he ran in there and shot him, but I wasn't visible in that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did any one of these films that you watched show you reaching out and touching the coat of Ruby?

Mr. CROY. No; none that I saw.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, you met Jack Ruby before, haven't you?

Mr. CROY. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. About how many occasions had you seen Jack Ruby before he came into the basement?

Mr. CROY. Once, that I can recall. I may have seen him many times before that, I don't know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. As a reserve officer, do you have occasion to ride duty in the downtown area?

Mr. CROY. Sometimes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. About how often would you say you did duty in the downtown area?

Mr. CROY. Requires once a month.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is there any particular man that you always did duty with?

Mr. CROY. Yes; there was one that I did ride quite a bit with.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who was that?

Mr. CROY. J. W. Dyson.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I mean in the downtown area, was there one that you rode with?

Mr. CROY. I didn't ride in any particular downtown area over twice since I have been in the reserves, I don't guess. As a district in the downtown area.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you have occasion to ride out in the area of the Vegas Club?

Mr. CROY. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How often would you ride in that area?

Mr. CROY. I have ridden out there a couple or three times.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who did you ride that area with?

Mr. CROY. I don't know. I just went to the substation and checked out with the squad.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was Officer Dyson assigned to that area?

Mr. CROY. No; he is an APB.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is West Illinois Avenue anywhere near the Vegas Club?

Mr. CROY. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about around 1720 South Lamar, is that anywhere near?

Mr. CROY. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you ever testified in any court case before?

Mr. CROY. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, after Ruby shot Oswald, did there come a time when you ran up the Main Street ramp and stopped reporters leaving?

Mr. CROY. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long was that after this scuffle on the floor?

Mr. CROY. That is hard to say, because it was right there, you might say, right with the scuffle on the floor that they said "seal the basement."

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did you stand up there at the Main Street ramp?

Mr. CROY. Oh, just a few minutes. Then I moved to the entrance into the jail office.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did you remain there?

Mr. CROY. A good while.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Then what time did you go off duty?

Mr. CROY. It was about 8 o'clock that night.

Mr. GRIFFIN. During that period, did you tell anybody that you had seen a man brush by you who you thought was Ruby?

Mr. CROY. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who did you tell at that time?

Mr. CROY. Lieutenant McCoy.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Reserve Lieutenant McCoy?

Mr. CROY. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Anybody else?

Mr. CROY. I don't recall if I mentioned it or not to Reserve Lieutenant Nicholson, I may have.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Nicholson?

Mr. CROY. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did Lieutenant McCoy say when you told him that?

Mr. CROY. I don't recall what he said.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Why did you tell him about it?

Mr. CROY. We were just talking about it later on that afternoon.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, what were you saying?

Mr. CROY. We were just talking about what happened in the basement, where he was at and where I was at.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you speculating about where he came from or how he got in or anything like that?

Mr. CROY. A little bit, I am trying to figure out what the heck happened, really.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were there other officers in the basement doing that also?

Mr. CROY. They were doing it just between theirselves. There wasn't any group talking about it, I don't know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What time was it that you talked, approximately, to Lieutenant McCoy?

Mr. CROY. Oh, I don't know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, was this, you say, a short time after you left your position up on the Main Street ramp, or was it a long time after?

Mr. CROY. It was a pretty good while after. An hour.

Mr. GRIFFIN. An hour or so?

Mr. CROY. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, between the time that you told this Lieutenant McCoy and you went off duty, what did you do?

Mr. CROY. I sat up in the city planning room.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who was up there in the city planning room?

Mr. CROY. Lieutenant McCoy and Reserve Lieutenant Barney Merrell.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Anybody else you can recall?

Mr. CROY. Reserve Lieutenant Nicholson. And there was Captain Solomon up there, and Captain Arnett, and several other reserve officers, that we kind of set up a command post, is actually what it was.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What were you doing up there?

Mr. CROY. Making assignments.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who was giving you directions?

Mr. CROY. Lieutenant McCoy.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What sort of assignments were you making?

Mr. CROY. Placing the men in different spots throughout the city hall and seeing that they were relieved, and calling on the telephone to get some more help.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have some time to sit around and talk?

Mr. CROY. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you talk about what you had seen down in the basement?

Mr. CROY. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you tell these men out there about Ruby brushing past you?

Mr. CROY. I talked to Lieutenant McCoy about it. I don't know whether Mike Nicholson and Merrell were there at that particular time or not. I don't know whether they overheard what we were talking about or not.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did Captain Solomon at that time make any request that people write reports about what they had seen?

Mr. CROY. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you aware that the regular officers, these other people who had been down in the basement, were being asked to make reports?

Mr. CROY. No; I didn't know they were.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you expect that you would be asked to make a report of what happened in the basement?

Mr. CROY. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You expected that while you were sitting up there in the office?

Mr. CROY. I had a pretty good hunch they would.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, this statement which we have marked, a letter which we have marked Exhibit 5052, which is a copy of a letter that you prepared for Chief Curry, dated November 26, 1963, was that prepared down in the police department, or was that prepared at one of your business offices?

Mr. CROY. That was prepared at the Dallas Police Academy.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where is that located?

Mr. CROY. On Shorecrest back of the northwest substation.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was that prepared by hand?

Mr. CROY. Yes, it was.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you responsible for getting the typing done?

Mr. CROY. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who did you turn that report over to?

Mr. CROY. Captain Solomon.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Then was it his responsibility to get the typing done?

Mr. CROY. I don't know. I just turned it in. What he did with it, I don't know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did it eventually come back to you?

Mr. CROY. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. The typed copy never came back to you?

Mr. CROY. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you seen a copy of that statement since you signed it?

Mr. CROY. Just a while ago.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is there any question in your mind but that the statement that you signed is a complete and accurate copy of the statement that you prepared in your own hand in the police department?

Mr. CROY. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall what day it was, the day you prepared that statement?

Mr. CROY. The following Tuesday night. I don't know what date it was.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, Mr. Croy, why didn't you mention in this report, dated November 26, your seeing this man you believe to be Ruby?

Mr. CROY. Why didn't I mention that in there?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. CROY. Because at that time Captain Solomon told me that there would be another report made and I would have to go downtown to the city hall before a stenographer, and he told me just to leave that out for the time being, and put this in this other affidavit that you have, that this right here was just basically to find out where we were in the city hall.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Then when you prepared this other statement on December 1, who called you and how did you come to go before Notary Public A. L. Curtis?

Mr. CROY. He is a lieutenant. After I signed it, I took it there to be notarized by him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, then, how did you happen to--was this done in the police department?

Mr. CROY. Yes, it was.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you happen to go to the police department that day?

Mr. CROY. They called me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who called you?

Mr. CROY. Captain Arnett.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you meet Captain Arnett down at the police department?

Mr. CROY. Yes, I did.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you talk with him before this statement was drawn up?

Mr. CROY. No, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who did you talk to before the statement was drawn up?

Mr. CROY. Lieutenant Revill.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Lieutenant Revill have any information before him about this, about your having seen Ruby? Did Lieutenant Revill have any information before him about your having seen Ruby go into the, brush by you?

Mr. CROY. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. He didn't have any information to that effect?

Mr. CROY. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you happen to be called down there?

Mr. CROY. Because of my position in the basement where I was standing when he shot Oswald.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now, what did Captain Solomon say to you when you told what you had seen to Revill? Did Revill indicate that he had heard about this before, about your having been a witness to this?

Mr. CROY. Not that I recall.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was anybody else there?

Mr. CROY. Yes; Lieutenant, I think his name is Cornwall, he was present.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did either of them indicate surprise by having seen this?

Mr. CROY. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You got the impression from the way they spoke, or any impression from the way they spoke, that they had heard this information before?

Mr. CROY. Well, they didn't act surprised. They didn't act like they didn't know about it. It kind of tied in with the other reports that they had gotten, I presume, from the way they acted.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, what was the general attitude on their part in the taking of these statements. Did you feel that there was some, Cornwall and Revill were concerned about this situation?

Mr. CROY. Yes; they were.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How would you describe their general attitude in this interview?

Mr. CROY. They were very interested.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, can you tell me more about that?

Mr. CROY. No; well, I will put it this way, that it took us 8 hours to get that up. That is how interested they were.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You talked with them for 8 hours?

Mr. CROY. On 2 different occasions. That day and the next day, for 4 hours each day. That is pretty interesting.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Mr. Croy, I take it that you actually talked to them on November, the last day of November was the first time you talked to them, and then you signed this on the first day of December?

Mr. CROY. What it was, the stenographer took it, and then she typed it up. Then the next day I went back down there and they re-read it to me and went over and over and over and over the same thing over and over again. And then I took it into Lieutenant Curtis and signed it and had it notarized.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was that examination the way you and I have been going back and forth here?

Mr. CROY. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were there a number of drafts to this statement? You say it took you 2 days to draw this up. Had you written a number?

Mr. CROY. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you write something first?

Mr. CROY. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did they take notes as you talked with them?

Mr. CROY. No; we talked the entire thing over, and after we talked everything over and they brought the stenographer in and we went back over it again, then I left and she typed it up, and I came in the next day and we went back over it again and back over it and so on.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were they critical of you in any way for not having ejected Ruby the first time that you saw him in the basement?

Mr. CROY. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you indicate to them at that time that you didn't know who he was when you first saw him?

Mr. CROY. Yes; I didn't know who he was.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When you first saw this man, did you believe that he was a newspaper reporter?

Mr. CROY. I did.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you tell that to Lieutenant Revill and Captain Cornwall?

Mr. CROY. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to mark this "Ruby location at the time Croy saw him moving toward Oswald." Is that a fair description of what the hieroglyphics on here mean?

Mr. CROY. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to mark this "Dallas, Tex., Mr. Croy, 3-26-64, Exhibit 5054," and what I have marked on is the chart upon which you made a certain mark while you described to me what happened when you saw a man you believed to be Ruby run toward Oswald.

Now, let me ask you to sign that, if you believe that is an accurate copy of the real McCoy. Would you date it also?

Mr. CROY. [Signs and dates.]

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, do you have any other information that you could provide the Commission of any significance?

Mr. CROY. None other than what we have talked about right here.

(Statement to witness by court reporter.)

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, now, tell me about your conversation that you had with our court stenographer here prior to coming in here, about Tippit?

Mr. CROY. Oh, it was at the scene over where Officer Tippit was killed, at the scene.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you at the scene when Tippit was there?

Mr. CROY. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Unassigned?

Mr. CROY. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I take it you are nodding your head?

Mr. CROY. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What time were you at the scene where Tippit was killed?

Mr. CROY. I watched them load him in the ambulance.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. Were you on reserve duty that day?

Mr. CROY. Yes. I was stationed downtown in the, I believe it was the 1800 or 1900 block of Main Street.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you in a patrol car?

Mr. CROY. No; I was on foot.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you in uniform?

Mr. CROY. In uniform.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where were you at the time President Kennedy was shot?

Mr. CROY. Sitting in my car at the city hall. I would guess, I don't know, because I didn't know he was shot until, I guess, several minutes after it was.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that where you were located when you heard he was shot?

Mr. CROY. No. I was on Main Street trying to go home.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You were driving your car down Main Street?

Mr. CROY. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. About where were you on Main Street?

Mr. CROY. Griffin.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Griffin Street?

Mr. CROY. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you do when you heard that President Kennedy had been shot?

Mr. CROY. I didn't do anything. I was right in the middle of the street with my car hemmed in from both sides. I couldn't go anywhere.

Mr. GRIFFIN. As soon as you got unhemmed, what did you do?

Mr. CROY. I went by the courthouse there and there were several officers standing there, and I asked if they needed any help.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you drive your car to the courthouse?

Mr. CROY. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Which courthouse?

Mr. CROY. There was only one courthouse.

Mr. GRIFFIN. There is a county courthouse?

Mr. CROY. There is.

Mr. GRIFFIN. There is a Federal courthouse, also, but this is the one right there by the plaza and near the Texas School Book Depository?

Mr. CROY. The old red courthouse.

Mr. GRIFFIN. On Houston Street?

Mr. CROY. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was that the corner of Houston and Main?

Mr. CROY. Houston and Main and Elm.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long after you heard that President Kennedy was shot did you arrive there?

Mr. CROY. Oh, I guess it took me at least 20 minutes to drive those few blocks.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What time would you say it was when you arrived at the courthouse?

Mr. CROY. I don't know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who did you see when you arrived there?

Mr. CROY. Oh, there was some officers standing on the corner, I don't know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you inquire of somebody there if you could be of assistance?

Mr. CROY. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Whom did you inquire of?

Mr. CROY. I don't know. They were just standing on the corner, and I asked if I could be of any assistance.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Then, what did you do?

Mr. CROY. I proceeded on home.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Which way did you drive home?

Mr. CROY. Out Thornton to Colorado, and Colorado to--I can't think of the street. It was Marsalis.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was that----

Mr. CROY. Or Zangs.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Thornton to Zangs?

Mr. CROY. Thornton to Colorado to Zangs.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Then out Zangs and in a westerly direction?

Mr. CROY. No. That is when I heard the call on Tippit.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You were at the corner of Zangs and Colorado?

Mr. CROY. When the call came out on Tippit.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Then what did you do?

Mr. CROY. I proceeded to the location where Tippit was shot.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where was that?

Mr. CROY. I think it was in the 400 block of East 10th, I believe it was.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall what street intersection that was?

Mr. CROY. No; I don't.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you describe that area out there?

Mr. CROY. Just residential.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, was there----

Mr. CROY. Where Tippit was killed, you mean?

Mr. GRIFFIN. This area that you went to where Tippit was?

Mr. CROY. Well, the street where he was killed was a residential area. The street immediately south of that, Jefferson, is business.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. Now, I am just referring to the street you found him on. When you got there, was Tippit's car there?

Mr. CROY. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was Tippit there?

Mr. CROY. They were loading him in the ambulance.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were other officers on the scene?

Mr. CROY. None that I saw.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you do when you got there?

Mr. CROY. Got me a witness.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who did you get ahold of?

Mr. CROY. It was a woman standing across the street from me. I don't recall her name. She gave me her name at that time.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did she tell you?

Mr. CROY. She told me that she saw Tippit get out of the car, and I don't recall, I think she said he stepped back a couple of foot and shot him and then ran. She was pretty hysterical at that particular time.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did she tell you where she first saw Oswald?

Mr. CROY. I don't recall whether she did or not. There was, as I recall, there was 2 people who saw it. No; 3. A man in a, taxicab driver. However, she was the main eyewitness, as far as I could make out. She saw the actual shooting.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did you talk with her?

Mr. CROY. Oh, a good 5 or 10 minutes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were there any other officers there with you when you were talking with her?

Mr. CROY. Yes; and no. I talked to her, and then they talked to her, and then I talked to her, and just after I located a witness, the squad did get there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. This conversation all took place near the scene of the Tippit killing?

Mr. CROY. Leaning up against his car.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, as you and the other officers talked with her, did she tell you where she was that she first saw Oswald?

Mr. CROY. I don't recall whether she did or not. She was pretty hysterical and not much that she said made too much sense.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What was she saying?

Mr. CROY. She talked very incoherent at that particular time.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What information were you able to get out of her at that time?

Mr. CROY. The only information I could get out of her was the description of what Oswald had on, and him shooting him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did she tell you at that time that he had on?

Mr. CROY. I don't recall what he had on.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did she tell you?

Mr. CROY. I don't recall what it was. She just gave a description there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you file any report of your activities this day?

Mr. CROY. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember the names of the other officers who were there with you when you were interviewing this woman?

Mr. CROY. No; I know them on sight. They all work in Oak Cliff and I don't know the names. I just know when I see them driving down the street.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you talk with the taxi driver?

Mr. CROY. Yes; I did. I talked to the taxi driver.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you talk with him on the scene of the crime?

Mr. CROY. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember what his name was?

Mr. CROY. No; I didn't get his name. There was a private detective agency. There was a report that a cabdriver had picked up Tippit's gun and had left, presumably. They don't know whether he was the one that had shot Tippit, or whether the man, I think it was he, brought someone out there, something. Anyway, he saw it and he picked up Tippit's gun and attempted to give chase or something like that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. There was a detective who was an eyewitness?

Mr. CROY. No; he brought the taxi driver back to the scene.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But the taxicab driver was an eyewitness?

Mr. CROY. As far as I know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you talk to the taxicab driver?

Mr. CROY. No; I took Tippit's gun and several other officers came up, and I turned him over to them and they questioned him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, who was the third eyewitness that you say you talked with there?

Mr. CROY. I believe it was a man that was standing there in the yard. He said he saw Oswald just walk up the street.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What direction did he say?

Mr. CROY. He didn't say.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But he saw Oswald walking some blocks to where he got to before he got to Tippit's car?

Mr. CROY. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did he tell you that he saw Oswald do walking up the street?

Mr. CROY. He just said he saw him walking up the street, and this other lady said that, I believe it was, that Tippit had stopped him and called him over to the car, and he came around to the driver's side, because Tippit was by himself.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Oswald came around?

Mr. CROY. To the driver's side of the car.

Mr. GRIFFIN. This is the lady that said that?

Mr. CROY. The lady said that, and she said, I think she said, he stuck his head in the car and they talked, and he stepped back a couple or 3 feet, and Tippit opened the door to get out, and when he got out, Oswald pulled the pistol out and shot him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. This is a lady? The man or the lady that said this?

Mr. CROY. The lady.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, what did the man who was walking, who saw Oswald walking up the street, tell you?

Mr. CROY. He just said he saw him walking up the street just prior to the shooting.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he say he saw him arrive at the car?

Mr. CROY. No; I turned him over to some other officers and they talked to him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you able to determine from them what direction he saw Oswald walking?

Mr. CROY. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall this man's name?

Mr. CROY. No; I found the witness and took him to the other officers.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, after the Tippit--how long did you remain at the scene of the Tippit killing?

Mr. CROY. Oh, I would say a good 30 minutes. Thirty or forty minutes, something like that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Then where did you go?

Mr. CROY. Home. I went to eat.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I take it, at some restaurant or something?

Mr. CROY. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you remain home the rest of the day?

Mr. CROY. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you come to the police department on the----

Mr. CROY. Next day.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Next day?

Mr. CROY. I believe it was the next day. No; that was the 22d. Saturday, I didn't go to the police department that day.

Mr. GRIFFIN. While you were at the scene of the Tippit killing, did you inquire there as to whether or not you could be of any assistance?

Mr. CROY. Well, when I left, I asked them if they thought they needed me any longer, and they said, "No," so I left.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, have you been interviewed by an FBI agent or any agent of the Federal Government with respect to what you have just told us here?

Mr. CROY. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you been interviewed by any member of the Dallas Police Department with respect to what you have told us here?

Mr. CROY. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did any of the--how many police officers came out to the scene of the Tippit killing while you were there?

Mr. CROY. I don't know. There was a slew of them. That would be hard to say.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were there any officers there that you knew?

Mr. CROY. There were several officers there that I knew. I don't know their names.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were there any officers there that you knew?

Mr. CROY. I am sure there is.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know them?

Mr. CROY. The same way I know them, just by sight.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, do you have anything else of value that you know you could contribute to the Commission?

Mr. CROY. Not that I know of.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know the name of the woman you talked to across the street?

Mr. CROY. I don't recall. I think she lived across the street. She was standing out in front watering her yard or doing something in her yard.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But you have the impression that she lived across the street, in a house across the street?

Mr. CROY. I believe she did. I am not sure either, or it was in the neighborhood and she was there in the yard. She was across the street when it happened.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, you stated that she was watering her yard?

Mr. CROY. Or something. She was standing in the yard doing something.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But the first thing you indicated was, she had been watering her yard? Apparently that was something that stuck with you from, of course, talking with her?

Mr. CROY. I don't remember what she said she was doing. She was doing something in the yard, and I presume that is where she lived was across the street.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you have occasion to go to the theatre where Oswald was apprehended?

Mr. CROY. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Or go near there?

Mr. CROY. I went by it, yes; within a block of it on the way home.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Had Oswald been apprehended by the time you got there?

Mr. CROY. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How do you know that?

Mr. CROY. They were on their way up there. There had been a report that he had gone into the Texas Theatre.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you listening to your police radio?

Mr. CROY. No. I was standing at the scene, and there had been several reports. One, that he, of course, they said that the killer did go into a church, which was in sight of where they were at. And another report, that he had gone into the library over on Jefferson. And they had all, most of the officers except maybe one or two had left the scene where Tippit was killed and gone to the spot.

And as I got ready to leave, there was another report that he ran into the Texas Theatre, a man fitting Oswald's description had ran into the Texas Theatre.

Mr. GRIFFIN. That was about the time you got into the automobile?

Mr. CROY. Just as I was fixing to leave.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have your police radio on in your car?

Mr. CROY. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. So you drove over there by the--near the theatre?

Mr. CROY. Well, I drove on up 10th Street. I believe it was 10th Street. On up to Zangs, and when I got to Zangs, took a left, and at the end of Zangs, at the corner of Zangs and Jefferson, it is just a block away, I could see them rushing out to the front and the back.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you do as you saw them rushing out?

Mr. CROY. They had more help than they needed, so I went on.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you continue to listen to your police radio?

Mr. CROY. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you hear anything more over the radio about what happened?

Mr. CROY. No. I only had channel 1 on my radio.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How far a drive is it from the Texas Theatre to where you live?

Mr. CROY. About 3 miles.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long does it take to drive that distance?

Mr. CROY. About 10 minutes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you actually see these men rushing into the Texas Theatre from your automobile?

Mr. CROY. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you know they were going into the, men were rushing into the theatre just as you went by?

Mr. CROY. There were three cars in the back and about three in the front, and there wasn't nobody in them.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You drove right by the front of the theatre?

Mr. CROY. I drove within a block, but it is a big, wide street there, and there is an alley and nothing on the other side of the street, parking lots.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How many cars could you see there?

Mr. CROY. I would say there were two or three in the back and two or three in the front, plus another on the way.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, now, the street that you took, did that go by the front or the back of the theatre?

Mr. CROY. It didn't go by either one of them.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Which street was that?

Mr. CROY. Zangs.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How many blocks is it from the theatre?

Mr. CROY. One.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What street is the theatre on?

Mr. CROY. Jefferson.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What street does it back on to?

Mr. CROY. In backs into an alley.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Into the alley?

Mr. CROY. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How many feet would you say that Jefferson or the Texas Theatre is from Zangs?

Mr. CROY. I don't know. I would say not a very long block.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, when you were driving up Zangs, I take it you were driving away from town?

Mr. CROY. South.

Mr. GRIFFIN. South on Zangs at Jefferson?

Mr. CROY. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you continue south?

Mr. CROY. I continued south.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you proceed to your home from there?

Mr. CROY. Well, I didn't go home. I went to eat.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did you go to eat?

Mr. CROY. Austin Barbecue.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where is that located?

Mr. CROY. On the corner of Hampton and Illinois.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you get to Hampton and Illinois?

Mr. CROY. From Zangs to Illinois.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Then what direction?

Mr. CROY. West.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that left or right?

Mr. CROY. It is a right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Then how far up Illinois to Hampton?

Mr. CROY. Oh, I would say a long ways. It is a good stretch. Zangs Place is about the 300 or 400 block and Illinois intersects at about the 2100 or 2200 block.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How far driving was it from the Texas Theatre to this place that you had dinner or lunch?

Mr. CROY. Well, it is about three-quarters of a mile from my house, so it is 3 miles from there, so about 2-1/2 miles.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, from the diner what route did you drive to your house?

Mr. CROY. Straight up Illinois, west on Illinois.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is your house on Illinois?

Mr. CROY. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know what time you arrived at the diner?

Mr. CROY. No; I don't.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see anybody there that you knew?

Mr. CROY. My wife.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have an appointment to meet your wife there?

Mr. CROY. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What time was your appointment?

Mr. CROY. Well, I saw her downtown and I was supposed to have gone right straight over there. I was supposed to have gone by my mother's, and I got detoured down at Tippit, and I was a little bit late, and she was a little mad.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall what time you were supposed to meet her?

Mr. CROY. No; I just saw her downtown, and we were going to eat. She was in her car.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did you see her downtown? Where were you and she when you saw each other?

Mr. CROY. At the courthouse. She pulled up beside me. I asked if anybody needed me there, and they said, "No," and here she comes and I said, "Do you want to get something to eat?" And she said, "Yes."

Mr. GRIFFIN. You said you would be right there?

Mr. CROY. I was going to change my uniform and my clothes were over at my mother's and dad's.

Mr. GRIFFIN. So then as you drove out to change your clothes, what did you do? Did you hear something? How did you happen to get over to Tippit's place on the way home?

Mr. CROY. I was on the corner of Zangs and Colorado on my way to my mother's and dad's house at that particular time.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Why were you going to change your clothes at your mother's and dad's house? Did you live at your mother's and dad's house at that particular time?

Mr. CROY. Yes. I did for about that 2 weeks.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where was your mother's and dad's house from the place that you had dinner?

Mr. CROY. It is quite a ways. It is about 3 or 4 miles.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you go from where you had your lunch or dinner to your mother's and dad's house?

Mr. CROY. Straight out north on Hampton.

Mr. GRIFFIN. North on Hampton?

Mr. CROY. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You were living in your mother's and dad's house at that time?

Mr. CROY. I slept there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, was your wife living there also?

Mr. CROY. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you separated from her?

Mr. CROY. No.

(To reporter: Don't put that in there.)

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you separated at that time?

Mr. CROY. At that time.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is there anything else that you think that you could tell as a result of your experiences on the 22d, 23d, or 24th, or any other time that would be helpful to us, either in the investigation of the assassination of President Kennedy, or the murder of Jack Ruby.

Mr. CROY. You mean Oswald?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. CROY. None that I know of. That is as well as I can remember it of what happened.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Thank you very much.

TESTIMONY OF WILBUR JAY CUTCHSHAW

The testimony of Wilbur Jay Cutchshaw was taken at 10:30 a.m., on March 26, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Burt W. Griffin, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me state for the record again. My name is Burt Griffin. I am a member of the advisory staff of the general counsel's office of the President's Commission on the assassination of President Kennedy. This Commission was established as a result of an Executive order that was signed by President Johnson on November 29, 1963, and a joint resolution of Congress No. 137. Pursuant to that joint resolution and the Executive order the Commission has prescribed a set of procedures, and in accordance with this provision I have been authorized to take your deposition, Mr. Cutchshaw.

I want to tell you first of all a little bit about the scope of the investigation. The Commission has been directed by the President to inquire into and ascertain all the facts that have to do with the assassination of President Kennedy and with the subsequent murder of Lee Harvey Oswald, and to evaluate these facts and report back to the President.

We don't have any authority here to prosecute any crimes. We are not investigating for that purpose. The only crime that can be committed in connection with this investigation is the crime of perjury. We are here to try to determine the facts, and in order to make sure that the events that have transpired over the last few months will not be repeated in the future, if that is possible, and to attempt to determine whether there is still any danger to our chief officers in Government and the national security.

In doing this, we have had hundreds of interviews conducted by various members of the Federal investigatory agencies, and perhaps hundreds is an understatement. It may be thousands. We have a stack of documents over in a corner that would frighten you. It just represents people who have been talked to by the various Federal Bureaus. Now we are undertaking to talk to a few other people that we think are particularly central in terms of having information that would be useful.

As to you, Mr. Cutchshaw, we have asked you to come here because we want to ascertain what you know in particular about the death of Oswald, and we also, however, want any pertinent facts that you may have that would bear upon the entire picture.

You have been asked to appear here as a result of a letter which was mailed to Chief Curry in the form of a general request from Mr. J. Lee Rankin, who is the general counsel of the President's Commission. Actually, under the rules adopted by the Commission you are entitled to get a personal letter from the Commission, and 3 days before you testify here. However, the rules do provide that you can waive that particular letter, or 3-day written notice. Now, the first thing I want to ask you is if you would like us to send you a letter, or if you prefer to waive the 3-day notice?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I will waive that notice.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Also, the rules of the Commission provide that you are entitled to be represented by counsel at any time, and many of the people do have attorneys here. I want you to feel that we welcome your availing yourself of this opportunity if you want to, but I see that you are not here with an attorney, and I presume by that fact that you have decided that you don't want one. But if you do feel that you would like one, please feel free to indicate right now and we will certainly----

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I don't feel I need one.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Okay, let me ask you to raise your right hand and swear you in. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I do.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you state your full name?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Wilbur Jay Cutchshaw.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When were you born, Mr. Cutchshaw?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. May 27, 1923.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where do you presently live?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. 401 Southwest 22d, Grand Prairie, Tex.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What is your occupation?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Police officer, Dallas, Tex.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long have you been with the police department?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. A little over 9 years.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you in any particular bureau of the police department?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Criminal investigation division, juvenile bureau.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you hold any particular rank in the department?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Detective.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long have you been with the juvenile bureau?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. About 2-1/2 years.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where were you the time before that?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Radio patrol. Mostly working in the West Dallas area.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever work in the downtown Dallas area?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I think I worked downtown there for about a month.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know Jack Ruby before the time he shot Lee Oswald?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I had seen him one time before.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where was that?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. At the Carousel on Commerce.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you happen to see him?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I went up in his place one night.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long was that before he shot Oswald?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. That's been about 2-1/2 years ago, the first time I saw him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to mark for the purpose of identification a copy of an interview report prepared by FBI Agents Mabey and Hughes, purporting to report an interview they had with you on December 2, 1963. I am marking this "Dallas, Tex., Detective Cutchshaw, 3-26-64, Exhibit 5042." I have marked for identification the interview report of December 2, 1963, by Mabey and Hughes as Exhibit 5042. I have marked what purports to be a copy of a letter signed by you to Chief Curry, dated November 24, 1963, as Exhibit 5043. And I have marked as Exhibit 5044 a copy of a report by FBI Agent James W. Bookhout, relating to an interview that Bookhout had with you on November 24th. That is Exhibit 5044. Now, have you had a chance to look over these two interview reports and a copy of your letter?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Are there any additions or corrections that you would want to make in those documents?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I couldn't see any that I would want to make.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Okay; now, you were up in the juvenile bureau all of Sunday morning until you were called down in the basement; is that right?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, during the period that you were up there, do you recall who was on duty?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Well, let's see. Officer Goolsby was working the desk, and Lowery and myself and Harrison and Miller, I believe it was, and, oh, yes, June McLine, a policewoman.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you recall when it was that you first had any information that Lee Oswald might be moved to the county jail?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. All I can remember is that Chief Stevenson came up and told us he wanted us all to stay up in the office, and at that time it was about 9 o'clock, I believe it was. And he said that they had to form a security when they moved Oswald, but as far as knowing exactly what time, I didn't.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How do you place it? What makes you say that he came up about 9 o'clock?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Because I remember that he said we had to be there between, I believe it was, 9 and 10, and so I looked out the window at the clock, but I didn't have my watch, because I had these trousers that didn't have a watch pocket, because I have a pocket watch. I don't have a wrist watch, and out the window we have a sign that has a big clock. I said I better call the boys from the cafe.

They had already left to go to the cafe, but it was about 9 o'clock.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who were they?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Blackie Harrison and L. D. Miller.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who did you say that to?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I believe I asked Captain Martin if he wanted me to call and tell them to come back. He said tell them to get back as soon as possible.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you call over at the cafe?