Chapter XVIII: Part 18

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you have occasion to go out of the building between the time that you returned and the time that you went off duty?

Mr. HARRISON. I don't recall. I don't think I ever went out of the building.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you working on any particular cases that you recall?

Mr. HARRISON. No, no; I don't.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, during the period that you were there prior to 4 o'clock, did you see anybody on the third floor or elsewhere in the building who you knew was not a police officer or a member of the press or somebody who was up on some sort of official business with the police department, did you recognize anybody that you knew?

Mr. HARRISON. No, no.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see Jack Ruby there at anytime prior to 4 o'clock Friday afternoon?

Mr. HARRISON. No, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You do recognize Ruby by sight, do you not?

Mr. HARRISON. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know Jack personally?

Mr. HARRISON. I knew him as a businessman as well by sight, and I have known him for 12 years, I guess, as a businessman.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you happen to meet Jack?

Mr. HARRISON. Well, I used to go into his place. I was a motorcycle officer, and we would go into these different places just checking, and he was running the Silver Spur, I think was the name of it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What bureau were you assigned to at that time?

Mr. HARRISON. I was in the traffic bureau.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that motorcycle patrol?

Mr. HARRISON. Yes; motorcycle patrol.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was that downtown only?

Mr. HARRISON. No. We rode all over the city.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What particular business did you have in there?

Mr. HARRISON. Oh, we went in, we went into several places, maybe to get a cold drink, checking maybe to see if there was some drunks in there, just regular, routine checks more or less.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you ever see him on a social basis?

Mr. HARRISON. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever see him in any capacity other than as a police officer?

Mr. HARRISON. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you in the last 12 years had any part-time jobs while you were with the police department?

Mr. HARRISON. Any part-time jobs while I--I didn't understand that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; while you were a member of the police department, did you have any part-time jobs?

Mr. HARRISON. Yes; I have had part-time jobs.

Mr. GRIFFIN. In connection with any of this part-time work, have you ever worked with Jack Ruby?

Mr. HARRISON. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What kind of part-time jobs have you had?

Mr. HARRISON. Around parade of homes, working traffic around these parades of home, and on special occasions, like where they have big traffic problems, and in, well, you might say, jewelry stores, department stores, working in both.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You don't have any special trade like carpenter, bricklayer or anything like that?

Mr. HARRISON. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, what did you do when you left the police department at 4 o'clock on Friday?

Mr. HARRISON. I drove home, went home.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And where were you the remainder of the evening?

Mr. HARRISON. Well, I don't recall at all, but I believe I was at my home. I don't think I had left the house.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is there something that makes you think you might have been some place else?

Mr. HARRISON. No. I just don't remember back that--if I went anywhere or not.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, what shift did you work on Saturday?

Mr. HARRISON. 8 to 4.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And did you report for duty at the juvenile----

Mr. HARRISON. Bureau.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you in the building all day on Saturday?

Mr. HARRISON. On a Saturday?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. HARRISON. No, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall where you worked out of the building on Saturday?

Mr. HARRISON. No; I don't recall. It was just a normal, routine day, as far as our work was concerned, handling the juvenile prisoners and checking those beeves that we had assigned to us.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Prior to the time that you went on duty on Saturday, did you receive any telephone calls or other communications from Jack Ruby or anybody who was an associate of Jack Ruby?

Mr. HARRISON. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You left the police department about 4 p.m. on Saturday?

Mr. HARRISON. On Saturday?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. HARRISON. Yes, sir. No; I beg your pardon. Yes; it was about 4 o'clock on Saturday afternoon.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, at the time that you left the police department, had you heard anything about the movement of Lee Oswald, proposed movement of Lee Oswald?

Mr. HARRISON. No, no; I hadn't.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, what did you do Saturday after you left work?

Mr. HARRISON. I went home.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And did you spend Saturday night at home?

Mr. HARRISON. Spend Saturday night at home; yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What time did you report for work on Sunday?

Mr. HARRISON. 8 o'clock.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, anytime on Saturday, did you see Jack Ruby?

Mr. HARRISON. No, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Anywhere?

Mr. HARRISON. No, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see any of his friends or associates anyplace?

Mr. HARRISON. I don't know any of his friends or associates.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you acquainted with a fellow by the name of George Senator?

Mr. HARRISON. No, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, during the last year, the year prior to the time that the President was shot, how often did you have occasion to visit Ruby's place?

Mr. HARRISON. I believe that I went in his place one time within the last year.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When was that?

Mr. HARRISON. I don't--I don't recall. A group of us. I say a group of us. Occasionally, we will hear about some juvenile being in a place like that, and occasionally we will check to see if there are any down there, and, if I recall, I believe Officer Cutchshaw and myself went down to the Carousel Club one time.

Mr. GRIFFIN. In the course of your duties, did you ever find that Jack Ruby provided any useful information to the police department?

Mr. HARRISON. No, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you or any of the officers that you know in the police department attempt ever to obtain information out of Jack Ruby with respect to your duties?

Mr. HARRISON. Well, I didn't. I don't know if any of the other officers did or not.

Mr. GRIFFIN. There wasn't ever any occasion when you tried to get any assistance or information from him?

Mr. HARRISON. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, when you arrived for work on Saturday--Sunday, rather--you say you report at 8 o'clock?

Mr. HARRISON. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that the normal reporting time in your bureau?

Mr. HARRISON. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember where you parked your car?

Mr. HARRISON. I parked it over by the garage on Young Street, and actually, well, it was on a parking lot there next to the garage.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Young and----

Mr. HARRISON. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And what intersection?

Mr. HARRISON. Young and Pearl Expressway.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you come into the building with any of your fellow officers?

Mr. HARRISON. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember what entrance you came into the building through?

Mr. HARRISON. I drove into the basement.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I am talking about the police department building.

Mr. HARRISON. I drove into the basement of the city hall there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Oh, I thought you parked your car there.

Mr. HARRISON. I did. I parked my personal car on the parking lot across from the police garage on Young and Pearl.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I see.

Mr. HARRISON. I picked up a city car at the garage, drove to the basement of the city hall, where I parked it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. What car number was it?

Mr. HARRISON. I don't recall. Don't have any idea.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is there any sort of record that is maintained on what cars you drive?

Mr. HARRISON. Well, we fill out a slip on each car we drive every day.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And did you fill out a slip on that car?

Mr. HARRISON. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, where do you get the keys to one of those cars that is over there?

Mr. HARRISON. They are left in the car, they are in the cars.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And are they kept in a locked garage, is that it?

Mr. HARRISON. No; it is a two-story parking affair, enclosed in a fence up to, you know----

Mr. GRIFFIN. And there is a guard on the fence?

Mr. HARRISON. No; there is no guard.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, was there any particular reason for taking that car that day?

Mr. HARRISON. Well, we always park our personal car and pick up our city car and drive over close to the city hall there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. And it is part of your responsibility, you ordinarily pick up a car?

Mr. HARRISON. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have a particular car assigned to you?

Mr. HARRISON. No, no. We have a pool system.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you drive back with anybody to the police department?

Mr. HARRISON. No; I was alone that day.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I take it that you parked the car in the garage of the municipal building and walked by the jail office?

Mr. HARRISON. To the elevator.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. When you arrived, were there any newspaper people down in the basement?

Mr. HARRISON. In the basement?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. HARRISON. No, sir; not that I recall.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall whether there were any TV cameras set up when you arrived that day in the basement?

Mr. HARRISON. No, sir; I don't.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When you came in, I take it that you came in down the Main Street ramp?

Mr. HARRISON. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there a guard on the Main Street ramp at the time that you came?

Mr. HARRISON. Not at that time.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you do when you got up to the third floor? Is that right?

Mr. HARRISON. I went to the juvenile bureau.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you go to the locker room first?

Mr. HARRISON. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You went right up to the juvenile bureau?

Mr. HARRISON. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. On the third floor?

Mr. HARRISON. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall who was there in the juvenile bureau when you got in?

Mr. HARRISON. No. Goolsby was working the desk and Mrs. McLine was there and Miller and Lowery. I believe Cutchshaw.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Anybody else that you recall?

Mr. HARRISON. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was Captain Martin there?

Mr. HARRISON. I don't recall seeing him when I first come in.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When you arrived, what did you do as soon as you arrived up there in the juvenile bureau?

Mr. HARRISON. We checked to see what we had assigned to us. They assign the beeves of a morning when we first come in and put a copy of it in our drawer, and we always check the first thing to see if we have any messages or if there has been anything assigned to us to work on.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And did you have anything assigned to you at that time to work on?

Mr. HARRISON. I don't recall.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall what you did after you checked your assignments?

Mr. HARRISON. Well, Miller and I went to eat breakfast. I don't know the exact time.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long would you estimate that was after you arrived?

Mr. HARRISON. I don't have any idea. Approximately 20 or 30 minutes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you talk with anybody concerning what was going on in the homicide office or what was going on in connection with Lee Oswald when you came in?

Mr. HARRISON. I beg your pardon.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When you come into the juvenile bureau, did you talk to any of the people in connection with what was happening with Lee Oswald?

Mr. HARRISON. Not that I recall. I may have asked if he was still up there. I don't recall.

Mr. GRIFFIN. At the time that--excuse me.

Mr. MacMaster, this is Mr. Hubert of our office. Mr. MacMaster is assistant city attorney. This is Mr. Harrison, Mr. Hubert.

Mr. HARRISON. Hello. Glad to see you, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. At the time that you arrived in the building, had you heard anything in connection with the movement of Lee Harvey Oswald to the county jail?

Mr. HARRISON. No; I hadn't.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Had you heard anything about whether he was going to be moved at all that day?

Mr. HARRISON. Well, the--they were talking, the pressmen were talking about it out in the hall as we come by.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you hear the press people say?

Mr. HARRISON. They said he would be moved sometime that morning, and I couldn't tell you who the pressmen were or anything.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you talk with Officer Miller about this when you got in?

Mr. HARRISON. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you talk with any of the officers about this?

Mr. HARRISON. When Captain Martin came in, I believe we had gone to get breakfast, and when we got back, they told us to stay around the bureau there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. Now, when you went out to get breakfast, where did you have breakfast?

Mr. HARRISON. At the Deluxe Diner there at the 1900 block of Commerce.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Whose suggestion was it to go out for breakfast?

Mr. HARRISON. I don't know. Mine or Miller's one. I don't remember.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ask anybody else to go with you?

Mr. HARRISON. I don't recall.

Mr. GRIFFIN. It was just you and Miller that went to the Deluxe Diner?

Mr. HARRISON. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see anybody at the Deluxe Diner that you knew?

Mr. HARRISON. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know the people who operate the diner or the waitresses?

Mr. HARRISON. No. I know some of them that work over there, but I don't recall who was working that day.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And do you visit there often enough so that they know you?

Mr. HARRISON. Some of the employees do.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, before you left the juvenile bureau, who did you talk with before going? You didn't ask anybody to come with you. Did you tell anybody that you were going out?

Mr. HARRISON. We told the deskman, Goolsby.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Goolsby?

Mr. HARRISON. We were going over to get a cup of coffee.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. Now, how long did you remain at the Deluxe Diner?

Mr. HARRISON. I would say around 30 minutes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did anything happen over there?

Mr. HARRISON. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you talk about the movement of Lee Oswald at all?

Mr. HARRISON. No. We didn't know anything about it then.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall what you talked about over there?

Mr. HARRISON. I sure don't.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Speculation about whether they were going to get a story out of him, a confession, or anything like that?

Mr. HARRISON. I don't recall.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, how did you happen to decide to leave the diner?

Mr. HARRISON. Well, we were through eating and went back over to the city hall there to the bureau.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember if you talked with anybody while you were over at the Deluxe Diner?

Mr. HARRISON. I don't recall.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall whether you talked with any--had any telephone calls when you were there?

Mr. HARRISON. I believe I did.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Okay.

Mr. HARRISON. I believe I did have a phone call.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. What do you remember about the phone call?

Mr. HARRISON. I believe it was Goolsby. He called us and told us not to leave the city hall, that was the captain's order, Captain Martin's order. He told us to come on back to the bureau when we got through eating.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Uh-huh.

Mr. HARRISON. I recall that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now, when you got back to the bureau, did you report back in to Goolsby?

Mr. HARRISON. Well, he saw us come in. We didn't have to.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see Captain Martin when you got back?

Mr. HARRISON. I believe he was there when we got back in.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you talk to anybody when you got back about the proposed movement of Oswald?

Mr. HARRISON. No. Of course, it may have been discussed there as to what time it would be. I don't recall who was talking or what was said, but I know we were told to stand by the bureau there by Captain Martin.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, when did Martin tell you this?

Mr. HARRISON. Well, actually, on this phone call Goolsby made over there, he told us that the captain had told us to stand by there in the bureau.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Uh-huh.

Mr. HARRISON. When we got back up there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did Martin then tell you the same thing when you got up?

Mr. HARRISON. I don't recall whether he did or not.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, how long was it between the time that you got this call from Goolsby and you actually went down to the basement in connection with the movement of Lee Oswald?

Mr. HARRISON. I would say about 2 hours.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When you came back from the diner, how did you come back into the building?

Mr. HARRISON. Came across to Harwood Street and down to the Harwood Street entrance to the city hall.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And when you went out, did you go out that way or did you go out by the Commerce Street entrance?

Mr. HARRISON. Went that way.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you see anybody around the police building at that time whom you recognized that wasn't either a police officer or a newspaperman?

Mr. HARRISON. Yes, sir; when we came back, there was a man by the name of Johnny Miller, who owns a trailer house sales on West Davis. It is right across from Sivils parking lot there. It is a trailer sales company. He was standing in the door of this television company truck talking, and he turned around and shook hands with me and spoke to me, and I went on in the building.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember what he said to you?

Mr. HARRISON. He just spoke to me and shook hands with me said he was glad to see me, and that is the extent of it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Does Miller know Ruby, to your knowledge?

Mr. HARRISON. I don't know. I don't know that, whether he knows him or not.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Anything that would lead you to think that he might?

Mr. HARRISON. No; I have known Miller just about the same length of time that I have known Ruby, but I don't know whether he even knew Ruby or not.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is Miller a close, personal friend of yours?

Mr. HARRISON. No, no; just an acquaintance. Oh, I have stopped out there at his place and sat there and talked to him and have gone and had coffee with him, but just an acquaintance, not a personal friend.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is this a TV sales and repair shop that he runs?

Mr. HARRISON. No; a house trailer.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I am sorry. House trailer. House trailer. Okay. Now, do you remember what you did in those roughly 2 hours between the time you got back up to the juvenile bureau and the time that you went down to the basement?

Mr. HARRISON. No, sir; I don't recall, except sitting up there answering the phone and just checking on beeves that I had had assigned to me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you all keeping your eye out for when Oswald would be moved?

Mr. HARRISON. Well, we knew that we would be told, that someone would come and get us.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have any idea of what would be the occasion for moving Oswald, what would be done before Oswald would be moved?

Mr. HARRISON. No; I didn't.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you aware that the homicide people were questioning Oswald at that time?

Mr. HARRISON. We didn't know they were. We assumed that they were.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were there reporters running in and out of the office?

Mr. HARRISON. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were they talking about the events that were going on?

Mr. HARRISON. They were mostly using the phone. They weren't talking to us. They were mostly calling their home office.

Mr. GRIFFIN. They were using the phone in your office?

Mr. HARRISON. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You were able to hear what they were saying over the telephone?

Mr. HARRISON. I didn't pay any attention to what they were saying. There were three of us in there that morning. All we told them was to leave us three lines open because we were pretty busy ourselves.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What was the next thing you recall in connection with the movement of Lee Oswald?

Mr. HARRISON. About, I would say, 3 or 4 or 5 minutes to 11. I went down to the subbasement to get me some cigars, and as I come back up out of the subbasement, well, then the officers out of our bureau were going across from the elevator to the--to there in front of the jail office.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, there are two basements, as I understand it, in the Police and Courts Building. One is the basement level that the garage is on and the jail office and the records room?

Mr. HARRISON. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And then there is a subbasement?

Mr. HARRISON. Locker room.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Locker room down below that. Now, how did you get down from the third floor into the subbasement? Does the elevator go all of the way down?

Mr. HARRISON. No, no; it stops at the floor where the jail office is.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. When you get out of the jail office, where do you have to go?

Mr. HARRISON. Well, actually to the south end.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You walk down to the hallway and then you open a door?

Mr. HARRISON. No; you go down a stairway.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Go down a stairway?

Mr. HARRISON. Into the subbasement.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, there is, is there not, a doorway, as you walk from Commerce Street down the steps to go to the door that entered into the building and through the hallway that you had walked down? Do you follow me?

Mr. HARRISON. No, no; I don't.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let's suppose that you walked from the record room to the subbasement by way of the hallway that leads out towards Commerce Street.

Mr. HARRISON. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, that hallway has a door that goes out of the building, does it not?

Mr. HARRISON. Right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And when you open that door and go out of the building, there are two other doors, right?

Mr. HARRISON. No, no.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, isn't there a door on your--on your left as you face Commerce Street, isn't there a door on your left that goes into the engine room?

Mr. HARRISON. Actually, I have never--I believe there is a door there. It is underneath where the stairway goes up.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, there is a door straight ahead where the stairway goes up? In other words, as you walk out of the door from the building to leave the building and you step out of there, there is another door right in front of you right under this stairs----

Mr. HARRISON. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Isn't there?

Mr. HARRISON. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, that door leads down to the subbasement, doesn't it?

Mr. HARRISON. Well, I have never been down that way. I don't know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. From the assembly room, in the assembly room, where is this cigar dispensing machine?

Mr. HARRISON. They are not in the assembly room.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Not in the assembly room, in the locker room.

Mr. HARRISON. In the locker room.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where is it located?

Mr. HARRISON. I don't know how to describe it to you. The machine is about, I guess, 18 foot from the door--from the stairway.

Mr. GRIFFIN. At the far south end?

Mr. HARRISON. No; it is kind of west of the stairway.

Mr. GRIFFIN. West of the stairway, but it is on the south side of the room, it is on the side closest to Commerce Street?

Mr. HARRISON. No; that is where all of the locker rooms are, lockers are.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. HARRISON. Now, there is a door that separates the locker room from the area where the cold drinks and where the----

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right.

Mr. HARRISON. Where the cold drinks and the cigar machine and the cigarette machines are, there is a door that separates that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. We are all talking about the same thing here. I am not sure that Mr. MacMaster knows what we are talking about here. Would you draw Main Street or draw Commerce Street up on one end, which is convenient to you, and draw Harwood, and why don't you label them, write "Main," "Commerce," and "Harwood" in the appropriate spots? All right. Where is the doorway that you entered the locker room by, where would that be?

Mr. HARRISON. Well, now, this being the stair down.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. HARRISON. There is no door here.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. HARRISON. There is a wall approximately in this position and there is a double door here.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right.

Mr. HARRISON. All right. There is a big post here. It has a telephone on it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. HARRISON. Cigar machine sits right here beside of this post.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right.

Mr. HARRISON. And the Dr. Pepper and coke machines are all up and down this right side.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. What is in this area to the south of the doorway?

Mr. HARRISON. This?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. HARRISON. Lockers.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you draw that in there, write that in there? Write "Locker Room" or something. Did you have a locker in there?

Mr. HARRISON. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where was your locker located, approximately?

Mr. HARRISON. Down here, however it hadn't been used in over 2-1/2 or 3 years.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see anybody down here when you went down there to get the cigars?

Mr. HARRISON. There was no one down there when I went down there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have any occasion to go into the locker room?

Mr. HARRISON. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, what did you do after you got the cigars?

Mr. HARRISON. Went back upstairs.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And did you see anybody on the way up or down whom you recognized as not being a newspaperman or a police officer.

Mr. HARRISON. Well, at that time, there was no one in that immediate area. The officers were going across from the elevator to the jail office, the officers out of the juvenile bureau.

Mr. GRIFFIN. So when you came up, you found the officers had left?

Mr. HARRISON. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I mean had left the juvenile bureau, right?

Mr. HARRISON. Well, they were leaving the elevator coming across.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Had you met them in the basement?

Mr. HARRISON. Met them in the basement, yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And who did you see there at that time?

Mr. HARRISON. Well, there was Miller, Lowery and Cutchshaw, Goolsby, and I believe that was all out of our bureau.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And what did you do when you saw them?

Mr. HARRISON. One of them told me to come on.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember which one that was?

Mr. HARRISON. I don't recall who it was.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And where did you go with them?

Mr. HARRISON. We stood in front of the jail office.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And what happened as you waited around there?

Mr. HARRISON. Well, we were waiting around to get--find out where they were going to put us.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you finally get some instructions from somebody?

Mr. HARRISON. I believe it was Captain Jones that come in and told us that--to come on out into the area there in the driveway, and he told us that he wanted all of the newsmen on the east side of the drive and that he wanted nothing but officers over in this corridor here and where the--well, on the west wall, in other words.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, let's go off of the record here. I want to find out.

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to mark this diagram that you have drawn here Harrison Exhibit 5027, and I am going to ask you, Officer Harrison, if you will just put in here "coke machine" or whatever these things are, "cigar machine."

Mr. HARRISON. This is a post here.

Mr. GRIFFIN. A post. A support post. All right. Why don't you mark that post, then? And then mark the area where the--okay. Now, and that is "door." Okay. Now, would you sign that any place where you can get your signature and then date it?

(Recess.)

Mr. GRIFFIN. We were at the point where you had come into the basement area and seen the people coming down from the juvenile bureau. Before you went down there, had you left word that you would be down in the locker room?

Mr. HARRISON. Yes; I told Goolsby that I was going down and get me some cigars.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did there come a time when you were down in the basement that somebody gave you some instructions as to what was to be done?

Mr. HARRISON. Captain Jones, I believe it was, had come out and told us to go out into the ramp area, the garage, and to set--to put these photographers and newspeople on the east side of the driveway.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Will you take this map, diagram or chart (Harrison Exhibit 5028) which is--actually is a reduction of a chart that the Dallas Police Department made for us some time ago and purports to represent the basement area? You can see the jail office here?

Mr. HARRISON. Uh-huh.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And you can see Commerce Street over here and Main Street here and the garage area here and the Main Street ramp going down and the Commerce Street ramp going up, and this shows a solid wall along Commerce Street here. Actually, this is the basement wall. The basement extends out under the sidewalk, but if you were looking at this at ground level, you would see this broken line is the wall of the building. Now, directing your attention to the part that shows the exit from the jail office and the ramps and the entrance into the garage, can you mark on there what Captain Jones--how Captain Jones indicated that the newspeople were to be displaced by the officers?

Mr. HARRISON. He wanted them across along here on this side.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you want to put a series of "X's" or something along there to show?

Mr. HARRISON. You want to put "news"?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; you might put some mark on there. This would be news media, newspeople, also?

Mr. HARRISON. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Why don't you mark that "news," also? Now, were there to be any newspaper people from the northern side of the entrance to the garage on up toward the Main Street ramp?

Mr. HARRISON. There were some.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But what instructions did he give in that regard?

Mr. HARRISON. He didn't. He just stated that he wanted them on the east side of the ramp.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did he say anything with respect to whether he wanted them on the east side or the west side of the railing?

Mr. HARRISON. No; he didn't specify that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was it your understanding that there were to be no news media in this area other than the TV people?

Mr. HARRISON. In this area right here.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What about in the area to the north of where you have placed the "X's"? Was it your understanding that----

Mr. HARRISON. There were floodlights standing here.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where you are placing circles on the map. Now, did he give--go ahead.

Mr. HARRISON. There were cameras here.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did he give instructions as to where the police officers were to stand?

Mr. HARRISON. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he give any instructions with respect to forming any lines of police officers or anything like that?

Mr. HARRISON. I didn't hear it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, how long was this before Lee Oswald was brought down that these instructions were given?

Mr. HARRISON. This was approximately, oh, maybe 10 or 11 minutes before.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you do in that 10 or 11 minutes?

Mr. HARRISON. I took up a position in the ramp area here and assisted with getting the newsmen on the east side of the ramp.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you stay in the same general area?

Mr. HARRISON. I did; yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you indicate on the map by a circle and an "X" where was it you were, generally?

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. GRIFFIN. Actually, Mr. MacMaster, if you feel like you would like to recess this at some particular hour, let me know.

Mr. MacMASTER. Let me suggest this. Do you have any idea how long this interrogation will last?

Mr. GRIFFIN. I wouldn't expect it to go more than 45 minutes.

Mr. MacMASTER. More?

Mr. GRIFFIN. No; I don't think it will go any longer than that, however----

Mr. MacMASTER. What is your--would you just rather stay and finish?

Mr. HARRISON. I would rather stay and finish.

Mr. MacMASTER. All right. I wonder if I may make my one phone call here on the phone?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Sure.

Mr. HARRISON. May I ask you something here?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. Let's wait until he finishes.

Mr. MacMASTER. Well, let's go ahead. My 13-year-old daughter is on the phone, so that is a career itself trying to get home. I am not going to worry about it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Feel free at any time to interrupt me. Go ahead. You wanted to ask me.

Mr. HARRISON. I made these two things setting too far away. Actually, this camera was setting in this first aisle, one of them was.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I see.

Mr. HARRISON. The cameras were right in line here.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And you were making an effort to steer these news people over into this area and away from the Main Street ramp?

Mr. HARRISON. Right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, do you recall when Sam Pierce's car drove out?

Mr. HARRISON. Yes, sir; I do. I let the--I had to move the people back out of the way. There was actually two cars went out.

Mr. GRIFFIN. There were two cars?

Mr. HARRISON. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, tell me about that.

Mr. HARRISON. Well, there was a patrolman went out that direction in a squad car.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know who that was?

Mr. HARRISON. I believe it was Mr. O'Dell.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, how long before or after Pierce's car did he go out?

Mr. HARRISON. Well, now, it was some 3 or 4 or 5 minutes, something like that, I am sure.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now, let's focus on Mr. O'Dell's car, then. Was anybody in the car with him?

Mr. HARRISON. Not that I recall.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know what--for what purpose he went out?

Mr. HARRISON. No; I don't.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What division is he assigned to?

Mr. HARRISON. Radio patrol.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, were you aware, while you were down in the basement, of anybody being dispatched to change the positioning of the people along the street who were supposed to block off Elm Street?

Mr. HARRISON. No, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have any knowledge at all of how the route was to go, how Oswald was to be conveyed?

Mr. HARRISON. No, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever have any knowledge as to what was to be used to convey him?

Mr. HARRISON. Well, when we got down there, they were bringing this armored car, backing the armored car, into the south end or Commerce Street side of the ramp.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall or would you have been in a position to see whether the armored car was actually in the ramp when you arrived on the scene?

Mr. HARRISON. They were backing it in at the time that we came out into the driveway.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. Were you able to tell whether it would appear that it had just got to the ramp or how long it had been there?

Mr. HARRISON. I don't know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did O'Dell get his car from?

Mr. HARRISON. I don't know that. The first time I noticed it was when he came up here through the newsmen. I got them to move back where he could get by, and then there was a couple of men standing up here talking. I believe it was one of the--one of the supervisors talking to a reserve captain, who was standing there. I believe it was Arnett. I am not sure.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, there were--at the time that O'Dell's car went out, there were police officers in the direction of the Main Street ramp, closer to Main Street than you were?

Mr. HARRISON. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you place on there all of the--all right. Let me strike that. Go ahead. Tell me what you want to say.

Mr. HARRISON. At the time that O'Dell's car came out, I was back here, in this position here, to help get these men out of the way of the car, and then it was shortly after that that I took up this position here.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. All right. Now, at the time that O'Dell's car came out--well, let's strike this. Prior to the time that O'Dell's car came out, were you ever in this area here?

Mr. HARRISON. Yes; I was moving from this area around to here.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right.

Mr. HARRISON. In other words, keeping----

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Maybe we can do this sort of like a football diagram. Why don't you put your initials right there? And down here why don't you draw a circle and an "X" and just say, "Initial placement of Harrison"? Now, why don't you draw an arrow to the general direction of where you were and put a "1" and draw a circle around that, and then down in the corner, put a "1" and a circle and put, "Position when O'Dell's car started to move," if that is correct? Now, when O'Dell's car moved, were there police officers between you and Main Street?

Mr. HARRISON. There was--I believe there was a captain--I don't recall who it was--I believe it was Captain Jones, though--talking to this uniformed reserve captain.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Solomon?

Mr. HARRISON. No; Arnett.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Arnett?

Mr. HARRISON. In the Dallas reserves.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were there any other police officers up in that general direction?

Mr. HARRISON. There were officers out in this area right in here.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You are pointing to the area north of the entrance to the jail?

Mr. HARRISON. Well, no; right along the side here. See, this was lined with officers.

Mr. GRIFFIN. The first place that you indicate to is the south wall of the entranceway toward the jail office and up to the corner of the ramp and then along the ramp, the east wall of the ramp?

Mr. HARRISON. West wall.

Mr. GRIFFIN. West wall of the ramp toward Commerce Street?

Mr. HARRISON. Right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. That is where there were police officers?

Mr. HARRISON. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Okay. And also that there were police officers along the north wall of the entranceway leading toward the door of the jail office, officers right in there?

Mr. HARRISON. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now, as O'Dell's car moved up the ramp, what did you do?

Mr. HARRISON. I just moved these men back and--or asked them to move back--and let him out.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Uh-huh. Now, did you watch his car go up the ramp?

Mr. HARRISON. No; I didn't.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see what Jones and Arnett did?

Mr. HARRISON. No; I didn't. Well, I know they moved back out of the way.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were there news people strung across the Main Street ramp who had to be moved out of the way in order to let O'Dell's car move through?

Mr. HARRISON. Not at that time, not on O'Dell's car.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, what then happened? Where did you then go after O'Dell's car went up the ramp?

Mr. HARRISON. Back into my original area. It was about halfway between the ramp and--the rail and the west wall.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you looking around the area generally?

Mr. HARRISON. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, if anybody had come down the Main Street ramp while you were standing there up until the time that Pierce's car went out, would you have seen him come down?

Mr. HARRISON. Would you repeat that, now?

Mr. GRIFFIN. If anybody had come down the Main Street ramp up to the time, between the time that O'Dell's car left and the time that Pierce's car went up, would you have seen the person who was coming down there?

Mr. HARRISON. I don't think I would have. I was facing more or less back in this particular----

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. At any time during those few minutes between O'Dell's car leaving and Pierce's car leaving, did you look in the direction of the Main Street ramp or over in the direction of the garage area?

Mr. HARRISON. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. Now, if Jack Ruby had been in that area during that period, would you have seen him?

Mr. HARRISON. I don't know about that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, now, why do you say that?

Mr. HARRISON. I don't know whether I would have seen him or not. It was mass confusion, as far as people moving around in there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But the confusion was over in the area at the entrance of the garage, wasn't it?

Mr. HARRISON. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And this area up the Main Street ramp was relatively clear?

Mr. HARRISON. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And you knew Jack Ruby well enough, certainly as well as you know Mr. MacMaster, if you saw him just even briefly, you would recognize him?

Mr. HARRISON. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. So if at any time you had looked over in that area and Jack Ruby were there, you would have seen him, wouldn't you?

Mr. HARRISON. Well, it was very hard to see in this direction at all.

Mr. GRIFFIN. In the direction of the garage?

Mr. HARRISON. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Why was that?

Mr. HARRISON. In this position. These floodlights were very bright.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Uh-huh.

Mr. HARRISON. They had--I don't know how many they had.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long were the floodlights on prior to the time that Oswald came out?

Mr. HARRISON. I don't know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were they--try to think about this, now--were they on when you first came into the basement?

Mr. HARRISON. No; I don't believe they were.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, they were taken--did you know whether or not, when the armored car came down the Commerce Street ramp, the, TV cameras, any of the TV cameras, were focused on that armored car?

Mr. HARRISON. I didn't notice that. He didn't get all of the way down there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. At the time that Rio Pierce's car moved out, were the floodlights on?

Mr. HARRISON. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. At the time that O'Dell's car moved out, were the TV cameras--were the floodlights on?

Mr. HARRISON. I don't recall whether they were on or off.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you have any trouble seeing up in the direction of the armored car?

Mr. HARRISON. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And standing, from where you were, even in the center of the entranceway toward the jail office, you could see up the ramp toward the armored car and you could recognize the faces of people up there, couldn't you?

Mr. HARRISON. Possibly, yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there--other than the little difficulty we all experience with vision, either through age or what-not, was there anything unusually difficult about looking up in the direction and seeing in the direction of the Commerce Street ramp?

Mr. HARRISON. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And how far up the ramp was the armored car or how far down the ramp, I should say?

Mr. HARRISON. Well, I didn't go up there, but it appeared to be setting just backed into the doorway.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you say it was halfway down?

Mr. HARRISON. No; it wasn't halfway down.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, were there officers, police officers, standing up there around the back of the armored car?

Mr. HARRISON. I remember seeing Lieutenant Butler up there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And could you distinguish these police officers from the position in the middle of the entranceway to the jail office where you have marked your initial, where you have marked your initial position on the ramp here, could you, looking up towards Commerce Street, could you distinguish the faces of the police officers up there, could you recognize who they were, toward the armored car?

Mr. HARRISON. Well, I recognized Lieutenant Butler, but I don't recall seeing--now, Chief Batchelor was around the truck. They went in and out of the truck there inspecting it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And do you recall seeing him up there?

Mr. HARRISON. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Uh-huh. And you didn't have any difficulty seeing Batchelor from your position on the ramp?

Mr. HARRISON. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And presumably the same situation would prevail if you looked up toward the Main Street ramp, isn't that right?

Mr. HARRISON. That is right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And did you ever have occasion to look up toward the Main Street ramp and see the police officer who was guarding the exit to the ramp up there?

Mr. HARRISON. There was a uniformed officer up there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, from where you were down here at what we have called your initial position, on the time or times that you looked up toward that uniformed officer up there, could you make out his face and what-not?

Mr. HARRISON. I never did see his face. All I could see was a man in uniform up there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, we have learned subsequently, and you have, too, I am sure, that that was Officer Vaughn that was up there?

Mr. HARRISON. That is right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know Vaughn before?

Mr. HARRISON. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you able to tell from where you were that it was Vaughn up there?

Mr. HARRISON. Well, I didn't know who it was up there. I could just see his uniform and back.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was it because he didn't turn his face to you?

Mr. HARRISON. He was facing out when I looked up there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You feel that, if he turned his face toward you, you would have recognized who it was?

Mr. HARRISON. I would probably have recognized him; yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me ask you if the same thing is true, when you looked up toward the Commerce Street entrance and the sidewalk, there were--do you remember that there were officers guarding up there?

Mr. HARRISON. I couldn't see any officers out there. It was considerably darker up on this end of the ramp due to the fact that the armored truck had the light blocked off.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I see.

Mr. HARRISON. I mean the vision, it was pretty well--the whole ramp area was pretty well taken up by that truck?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. Let me make sure that I am clear on that. I don't want to put words in your mouth. Is it fair to say that, if on any occasion that you had to look up toward the Main Street ramp, if there had been a man walking down that ramp, you or any other officer with vision like yourself would have been able to recognize that person coming down the ramp?

Mr. HARRISON. I don't know whether you could have recognized him or not due to the fact that you were looking into sunlight.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, that is the north side of the building.

Mr. HARRISON. That is on the north side of the building, but it was very bright that day.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But you also had floodlights down in the basement?

Mr. HARRISON. That is right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. It was bright in the basement?

Mr. HARRISON. That is right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Your eyes would be accustomed to those bright lights?

Mr. HARRISON. A man coming down, if he got close to you, you could recognize him, but just a man in a suit walking down that ramp, it would have been hard to recognize. I will put it that way.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, would a man walking down from the Main Street side have been any more difficult to recognize than a man that was standing up in the position that Captain Butler was or Assistant Chief Batchelor was?

Mr. HARRISON. Batchelor and Butler, Lieutenant Butler.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would it have been any more difficult to recognize a man coming down the Main Street ramp than it would those two men coming up the Commerce Street ramp?

Mr. HARRISON. Yes; I believe it would have been, due to the glare in your face.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, were you keeping an eye out generally for people, news people, who might try to drift over into that area, and by "that area," I am referring to the area along the Main Street ramp, across the Main Street ramp?

Mr. HARRISON. Would you ask that question again?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. HARRISON. And point out there, please.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. I am referring to the area that goes directly across the Main Street ramp down to the base of the ramp. That area, as I understand it, was supposed to be kept clear. Were you keeping an eye out to make sure that people didn't congregate in there?

Mr. HARRISON. There was several officers in this area right in here. I don't know the names of them. I couldn't spot any of them for you. There was one newsman, who had a microphone, immediately to my right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, your right as you faced in what direction?

Mr. HARRISON. As I was facing south.

Mr. GRIFFIN. That would be toward Commerce Street?

Mr. HARRISON. Right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. At what point was there a man there?

Mr. HARRISON. He was even with me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I mean at what time----

Mr. HARRISON. Oh.

Mr. GRIFFIN. In this series of events.

Mr. HARRISON. He was in that general area all of the time.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you keep an eye on him?

Mr. HARRISON. No. I wasn't particularly watching him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were there any other news people who were there in that area?

Mr. HARRISON. There was a Japanese photographer on my left, immediately to my left.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, this Officer Harrison, this position that you have marked here as the initial position, is that also approximately the position you were standing at the time that Oswald walked out?

Mr. HARRISON. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. So that, when you say on your left there, are you talking about at the time that Oswald actually walked out, that is where that Japanese photographer, newsman, was?

Mr. HARRISON. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Put an "X," if you would, put a small "J" on that map where that man was and put a circle around it. Now, that is where the Japanese photographer was standing at the time that Oswald walked out----

Mr. HARRISON. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that right? Now, where was this man with the microphone standing?

Mr. HARRISON. He was immediately to my right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Why don't you put an "M" and a circle around him? Now, were there any other police officers over in this general area where you 3 people were?

Mr. HARRISON. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who were the other police officers?

Mr. HARRISON. I don't know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now, when Rio Pierce's car came out, what did you do?

Mr. HARRISON. I got these people to move back out of the way and let him through, and I stepped back to the rail, toward the lights there and let him through.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now, did you have your back to the railing or were you facing the railing?

Mr. HARRISON. Well, I had my back to the railing.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you watch Pierce's car go up the ramp at all?

Mr. HARRISON. I watched it until it cleared the people in that immediate area.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How many people were there to clear out in that immediate area, would you say?

Mr. HARRISON. Well, there was seven or eight, I would say.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You wouldn't say there were as many as 20 or 25, would you?

Mr. HARRISON. No, no.