Chapter XIX: Part 19

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, were those people all newspaper people, members of the press, or were there some police officers?

Mr. HARRISON. There were some police officers in that area.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Uh-huh. Now, at the time that Oswald actually came out of the jail office, how many lines of people, would you say, were strung along in that area that you were? Was there more than one line of people?

Mr. HARRISON. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, then----

Mr. HARRISON. Now, where are you referring to?

Mr. GRIFFIN. As I understand it, as Oswald walked out, there was a line of people that came from the north----

Mr. HARRISON. Northwest.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What corner are we going to call that, northwest or northeast? I think this would be the west.

Mr. MacMASTER. Northwest, that is right, isn't it?

Mr. HARRISON. Yes; that is correct.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to put "Northwest corner" here so we will know what we are talking about. There was a line of people, was there not, from what I have marked the northwest corner of the Main Street wall all of the way over to you and then around here? No?

Mr. HARRISON. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Okay. I am honestly trying to find out here how these people were lined up.

Mr. HARRISON. Well, due to these lights and the cameras being here, this area was open. There was, like I say, this Japanese, and there was another man or two in that area here, whom I don't--I don't have any idea who he was.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Just put a couple of question marks there. Okay.

Mr. HARRISON. And behind me, there were--not immediately behind me, but back in this area----

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right.

Mr. HARRISON. Toward the west wall, there was police and also Captain Arnett of the reserves standing--he was standing fairly close to me behind me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where was Captain Arnett? Put an "A" where you think he was and then put a circle around that.

Mr. HARRISON. He was in that general area somewhere.

Mr. GRIFFIN. At the time that Oswald walked out?

Mr. HARRISON. Yes; I believe he was. I am not----

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember seeing him there about that time?

Mr. HARRISON. I remember seeing the uniform there, and he was the captain who was in the uniform down there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, do you remember seeing these people over here at that time?

Mr. HARRISON. They were--yes; they were there. There were, I believe, two people right in here and there were the cameramen behind the rail.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Blackie, do you remember this from actual memory of what happened or do you remember this from having seen the photographs, the films?

Mr. HARRISON. Well, I remember these people on my left here and the ones here on my right. I remember this man with a microphone very distinctly because, when they brought him out, these fellows back here hollered for me to move the line back, which I did.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, do you remember if there were any people directly behind you?

Mr. HARRISON. No; not that I recall. I remember I spread my arms out and backed the group up where these cameras could get a clear shot of him coming out.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, is it fair to say that, if there had been people in back of you, you would have either known it because you were looking around there or because you would have wanted to have cleared them out or would have been worried about it or anything like that?

Mr. HARRISON. Well, I wouldn't necessarily have seen them, because I was watching this line across here to keep them from going forward into the path of this--of where Oswald was coming out.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, at any time after Rio Pierce's car went up that ramp, did you look in the direction of the ramp?

Mr. HARRISON. Not that I recall; no.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see any other officers look in the direction of the ramp during that period?

Mr. HARRISON. No, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, while you were over here, as Rio Pierce's car drove out, were other officers lined up along----

Mr. HARRISON. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. The other wall?

Mr. HARRISON. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And, to your knowledge, were any of them looking out in this direction toward the Main Street ramp?

Mr. HARRISON. I didn't notice any of them looking out that way. They could have been. There was--I know, when they brought Oswald out, Lowery was standing right here on the--on this corner.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Will you put a mark, put an "L" there where Lowery was? Did you at any time, now, did you see Jack Ruby in this basement at any time before he shot Oswald?

Mr. HARRISON. Not before he shot Oswald.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When you were standing here, did you feel a man pressing up against your back?

Mr. HARRISON. No; I didn't.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Of course, you have seen the photographs, haven't you?

Mr. HARRISON. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And you saw where Jack came from?

Mr. HARRISON. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there anybody that you know of that saw Ruby there?

Mr. HARRISON. Not that I know of.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you talked to anybody that indicated to you that he saw Ruby there?

Mr. HARRISON. I sure haven't.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, what did you do after Ruby shot Oswald?

Mr. HARRISON. Well, I grabbed him and more or less went to the floor with him and then we took him on into the jail office.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And how long did you remain with him in the jail office?

Mr. HARRISON. Until he was handcuffed, and I went upstairs on the elevator with him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And how long did you remain with him upstairs?

Mr. HARRISON. I didn't. I left him at the elevator. McMillon and Archer went back, took him on back to the cell, and I went back down on the elevator to the basement.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you do--you weren't present, were you, when Jack was stripped and searched?

Mr. HARRISON. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When you got back down to the basement, where did you go?

Mr. HARRISON. I went back out into the ramp area.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you--how long did you remain in the ramp area?

Mr. HARRISON. Well, it was about--until after the ambulance left with Oswald, and then the captain--I believe it was Captain Jones--sent me up to the first floor to see that no one come in there in that--on the first floor that wasn't authorized. We were given orders to stop everyone and see if they were going out of the building to find out who they were.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Whereabouts did you station yourself on the first floor?

Mr. HARRISON. I was right there in front of the elevators, at the elevator door.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you there alone?

Mr. HARRISON. There was--well, there was three or four more officers on that floor. There was one at every door and exit.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was Officer Miller up there with you?

Mr. HARRISON. I don't recall where Miller was at that time.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was Officer Lowery up there with you?

Mr. HARRISON. I don't recall.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Officer Cutchshaw?

Mr. HARRISON. I don't know whether they were or not.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you talk to anybody while you were up there or before you got up there concerning how Ruby got into the basement?

Mr. HARRISON. No; I told Chief Batchelor, just after I come back downstairs from taking him up--I told Chief Batchelor that I thought he come from behind those cameras over there, but--and that is where I thought he come from at that time.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, why did you think he came from behind the cameras?

Mr. HARRISON. Well, there was--he came from my left, and I don't see how he could get down the ramp.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Why did you feel that way?

Mr. HARRISON. Well, I knew there was an officer on the ramp and I just didn't feel like he could have gotten down there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you also feel that you would have seen him if he had come down that ramp?

Mr. HARRISON. No, not necessarily; because I wasn't looking toward the ramp all of the time. I never--had I been turned where I could have seen the ramp all of the time, I may have seen him coming down.

Mr. GRIFFIN. If Jack had been in that--were you moving around such after Rio Pierce's car moved that, if Jack had been down there in the basement area, you would have seen him?

Mr. HARRISON. Not necessarily; it is possible that he could have been down there and I wouldn't have seen him because he had been back over in this group of newsmen.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right; but if he had been in the area of the ramp, if he had been up in this area where you were and around up toward the Main Street ramp, would you have seen him if he had been in there?

Mr. HARRISON. I might have. I don't--I don't know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. There weren't enough news people milling around up in that area to have obscured him, were there?

Mr. HARRISON. Not in that immediate area; no.

Mr. GRIFFIN. In other words, if anybody had been turning and looking up toward the Main Street ramp, there wouldn't have been enough newspaper people in there to have obscured the sight of Jack Ruby?

Mr. HARRISON. I don't suppose there would have been.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, I am not trying to put words in your mouth. I want to make this very clear. I am giving you a direct question like this, but if you feel differently, I want to know if you disagree with me. I am asking a leading question here, but I want to make sure that I am not leading----

Mr. HARRISON. What was the question again?

Mr. GRIFFIN. If Jack Ruby had been in this area at the base of the Main Street ramp, there wouldn't have been enough newspaper people there? The fact that there were newspaper people around wouldn't have obscured the sight of him from anybody that was looking up in that direction?

Mr. HARRISON. I don't think it would have obscured him, had they been looking in that direction. Now, I did, as I said a while ago, I have looked at some films, and I did look to my left, oh----

Mr. GRIFFIN. By "left," you mean up in the direction of the Main Street ramp?

Mr. HARRISON. When this guy hollered to me to move the crowd back, I looked to my left and backed the people up.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Your left would be up in the direction of the Main Street ramp?

Mr. HARRISON. No; it would be toward the cameras.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Toward the cameras?

Mr. HARRISON. Television cameras, yes; over in this direction.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And, as you looked over there, you didn't see Jack Ruby?

Mr. HARRISON. No; I didn't.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember looking over there like that or do you only remember it from having seen the photograph?

Mr. HARRISON. No; when they hollered, I glanced over there to see where we were in trying to----

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right.

Mr. HARRISON. In trying to get out of line of those cameras.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, do you remember, as you looked over there, whether you had any difficulty in seeing people over in that area?

Mr. HARRISON. There wasn't anyone in here.

Mr. GRIFFIN. In front of the cameras?

Mr. HARRISON. No; there was no one in front of the cameras.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What would you say would be the total number of people, including newspaper people and police officers, who were strung from the northwest corner over toward the cameras at the time Oswald came out?

Mr. HARRISON. I would say maybe eight or nine.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right, now. How long did you remain up there by those elevators?

Mr. HARRISON. Well, it was, I imagine, 45 minutes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And what did you do when you left the elevators?

Mr. HARRISON. Went back upstairs to the bureau.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Which bureau, now, juvenile bureau?

Mr. HARRISON. Juvenile bureau.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you do in the juvenile bureau?

Mr. HARRISON. We stayed there until they told us to--Captain Jones told us to go up to homicide bureau and write a report as to what we saw and what we did on this thing.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now, did Captain Jones give the instructions to write a report to everybody?

Mr. HARRISON. Well, he told--I didn't hear him give it to everybody. He told me and Cutchshaw and Lowery to.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was Miller up there at the time?

Mr. HARRISON. I don't recall whether Miller was there or not.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was it your understanding that Jones was trying to contact everybody to get them to write a report as quickly as possible?

Mr. HARRISON. Well, now, I don't know about that. He came up there and told me to report back to the bureau, and when we got to the bureau, well, he told--came in and told Lowery, myself, and Cutchshaw--I remember that very distinctly--to go into Captain Fritz' office and write a report.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, about what time would you say you wrote that report?

Mr. HARRISON. I don't have any idea.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, let me ask you this, then. Maybe this will place it. After you wrote that report, you went out to Love Field, didn't you?

Mr. HARRISON. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, what time would you estimate that you went to Love Field?

Mr. HARRISON. Well, we were supposed to be out there when Mayor Cabell's plane left. I believe it was at 5:20, and we left the city hall shortly after 4 o'clock.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When you left the city hall, did you make--did you report in with the dispatcher or anything like that?

Mr. HARRISON. No; there was no--we went out in two separate cars and we went to--started up Harwood Street, and they gave Lowery a call to return to the station, and Captain Martin met us there in the basement and briefed us as to what to do out at Love Field.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right.

Mr. HARRISON. And then we headed on out to Love Field.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. But, on this question, I understand you that there would not be any record in the office, such as a dispatcher's record or something like that, that would show when you left for Love Field, or would there?

Mr. HARRISON. There would be a record of what time he gave Lowery that call to return to the station.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. And that was a call from captain who?

Mr. HARRISON. Martin.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, you had already started out----

Mr. HARRISON. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And turned around and came back? Okay; now, how much time elapsed between the time that you finished--well, strike that. Did you finish writing the report in the homicide office?

Mr. HARRISON. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How much time elapsed between when you finished that report in the homicide office and you got in your car to go out to Love Field?

Mr. HARRISON. I don't have any idea, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was it right away or did you go back to the juvenile bureau?

Mr. HARRISON. Well, we went back to the juvenile bureau; yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, is there an original copy--you wrote that report by hand, didn't you?

Mr. HARRISON. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, and is that--I am going to call a halt here and I am going to mark a couple of exhibits. All right. I am going to hand you, Mr. Harrison, what I have marked as Exhibit No. 5030. Now, this is a copy of a letter, which you apparently signed and was addressed to Chief Curry dated November 24. Now, let me ask you, did you write that out in hand first?

Mr. HARRISON. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And do you know whether your office has retained handwritten copies of those reports?

Mr. HARRISON. No. It was--I am sure it was thrown away.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, who did you turn your handwritten copy over to?

Mr. HARRISON. I don't know who typed it up. I know this was signed and sent in by, I think, Lieutenant Wallace.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Would you do this for me? After we finish here, would you check with Captain Martin and Lieutenant Wallace and find out from them if the handwritten copies of the things--of your report, handwritten copy of your report, is available----

Mr. HARRISON. All right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. If it has been retained? I believe that you will find that many of these were retained. There are other officers who have been able to get these for us.

Mr. HARRISON. Uh-huh.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And so I am inclined to believe that it is probably available someplace, and if you will get that and turn it over to us, I would appreciate that very much. We will make a copy of it and return the original to the department, but I would like a copy of that. Now, do you remember whether or not--do you remember any of the people who were in the homicide office when you filled out that report?

Mr. HARRISON. Cutchshaw, myself.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Any of the homicide people who were there?

Mr. HARRISON. I don't recall.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember if Fritz was there?

Mr. HARRISON. He was in and out of there during the time that we were in there, but I don't recall how long he stayed or anything like that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember if Montgomery was there?

Mr. HARRISON. Yes, Montgomery was in there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How do you happen to know about Montgomery being there?

Mr. HARRISON. Well, I know Montgomery very well. In fact, I used to be close neighbors to him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I see.

Mr. HARRISON. And I do remember him being in there. I remember that very clearly.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you talk with Montgomery at all about what had happened down in the basement?

Mr. HARRISON. No, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. While you were in the juvenile bureau, before you left to go to Love Field, did you hear any rumors as to how Ruby got in the basement?

Mr. HARRISON. No. They were talking about--Lowery said that he thought that he may have come by with a camera that was moved across just prior to the time that Pierce's car went out, and they were talking about the number of men who were on that camera, the particular camera. And--but that is the only discussion I heard as to how he may have got in there. For some time there, we thought that may have been the way he got in, I mean the men in my particular bureau.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When did Lowery first tell you that?

Mr. HARRISON. Well, he had started talking about this when we were in the basement.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And while you were in the basement, did you hear any other rumors as to how he got in?

Mr. HARRISON. No, sir; sure didn't.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, as long as you were at the juvenile bureau, did you hear any rumor about his coming down the Main Street ramp?

Mr. HARRISON. No, no; I didn't.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you talk with Officer McMillon on the day before you went to the juvenile bureau and after Ruby was shot--I mean Oswald was shot?

Mr. HARRISON. No; I didn't.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about Officer Archer?

Mr. HARRISON. Well, now, they went up on the elevator with me, I found out later, but I didn't see them.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Or Clardy?

Mr. HARRISON. I don't remember whether Clardy was on there or not.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Or Dean?

Mr. HARRISON. I don't recall if Dean was on there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you talk with Dean at any time on the 24th after Ruby was shot--Oswald was shot?

Mr. HARRISON. No, I didn't talk with Dean at all.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you talk to any people in the patrol division----

Mr. HARRISON. No, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Afterward?

Mr. HARRISON. No, sir.

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. GRIFFIN. At any time on Sunday, that is, the day that Oswald was shot, did you hear the rumor that Ruby came down the Main Street ramp?

Mr. HARRISON. No, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, when you got back--what time did you get back to the juvenile bureau on Friday--I mean on Sunday?

Mr. HARRISON. It was well after 6 o'clock.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And did you--when you got back there, did you talk with anybody about how Ruby might have got in?

Mr. HARRISON. No; I went on home.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you hear any discussion from anybody----

Mr. HARRISON. No, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. From anybody about how--well, weren't people generally discussing this?

Mr. HARRISON. I suppose they were, but I was tired, and I went home.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Wasn't this a big topic of conversation back there at this time?

Mr. HARRISON. I don't know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. When you got back on Monday morning--did you come in Monday morning?

Mr. HARRISON. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you begin to talk with people about how Ruby got in?

Mr. HARRISON. I suppose I did, but I don't recall.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When is the first time that you recall hearing the rumor that he came down the Main Street ramp?

Mr. HARRISON. Well, it would have been possibly Monday. I was off Tuesday and Wednesday. I am not sure.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did McMillon ever tell you at any time that--have you talked with McMillon about this, these events, at any time since Sunday the 24th?

Mr. HARRISON. We have had some discussion, but I don't recall what it was. Of course, we have talked to several.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you talk to Dean at any time?

Mr. HARRISON. No; I have never talked to him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you friendly to Dean?

Mr. HARRISON. No; he is in the radio patrol, and I very seldom see the man.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. How about Archer?

Mr. HARRISON. Archer, he is in the auto bureau. I see him occasionally.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about Clardy?

Mr. HARRISON. Occasionally; I see him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, have any of these men told you since the--since the time that Oswald was shot by Ruby that Ruby told them that he came in through the Main Street ramp?

Mr. HARRISON. They never did tell me that, none of them. Now----

Mr. GRIFFIN. When was the first--go ahead.

Mr. HARRISON. I heard, after the trial down there--I heard them discussing, of course, the evidence that was brought out, and they said that he had made the statement that he came in that way. And when Lieutenant Wallace and Lieutenant McCaghren were making their followup investigation, which I don't know how many days it was after, they had talked that he had, or suggested that he had, come down the ramp.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, they had suggested this?

Mr. HARRISON. Well, they had, through their investigation, more or less, they had kind of--I guess you would make a theory out of it that he had come down the ramp.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You don't mean that they suggested it, but this is the inference or the conclusion that they drew?

Mr. HARRISON. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, what I would like for you to do is, if you would, sign Exhibit 5028 and date it.

Mr. HARRISON. This is the 25th, isn't it?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes, it is. Isn't it? Yes. I might say for the record, so that Mr. MacMaster understands, part of the procedures here now permit you to ask any questions that you want of Mr. Harrison, and I am going to just ask him to identify, sign these documents, identify them, and ask him specifically whether he has any changes that he would want to make on these, particularly on these reports and statements, and I am prepared to accommodate myself to your time on this, if you feel that you want to ask some questions. If you prefer to adjourn for dinner, or something like that, and come back, I would be happy to do that, and resume it later on this evening.

Mr. HARRISON. I would rather go ahead with it, if it is agreeable with you all.

Mr. GRIFFIN. It doesn't make any difference with me.

Mr. MacMASTER. Mr. Harrison, on Exhibit 5026, I believe that was the first exhibit.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Twenty-seven.

Mr. MacMASTER. Twenty-seven. That is just a reference to the basement area. Is that the police recreation room or locker room?

Mr. HARRISON. Yes.

Mr. MacMASTER. That is just a rough hand drawing, you didn't intend that to be exact to scale in any way?

Mr. HARRISON. No.

Mr. MacMASTER. That is all. At the time you were down in the basement area and they brought Oswald down, with the police security measures that were in effect, you wouldn't have any reason to believe that any unauthorized person would enter into the area, would you----

Mr. HARRISON. No, sir.

Mr. MacMASTER. Because of the police measures in effect at that time----

Mr. HARRISON. Yes, sir.

Mr. MacMASTER. Security measures? In other words, any other unauthorized persons in the area, in other words, Ruby, would be a big surprise to you?

Mr. HARRISON. It would; yes.

Mr. MacMASTER. Was it a surprise to you to see an unauthorized person down there the first time when he came around you?

Mr. HARRISON. It certainly was.

Mr. MacMASTER. Now, on extra duty for police officers, isn't it a standard departmental policy that you can't work on off-duty work at anyplace serving alcoholic beverages?

Mr. HARRISON. That is correct.

Mr. MacMASTER. Is that the chief's direct order?

Mr. HARRISON. That is a direct order. They have special officers for that type of work.

Mr. MacMASTER. But it is in the nature of regular police duty, that is, special officers?

Mr. HARRISON. Yes, sir.

Mr. MacMASTER. But you can't, that is, in civilian clothes, you can't work anyplace in an off-duty status for extra money in anyplace serving alcoholic beverages?

Mr. HARRISON. That is right; either in uniform or out of uniform.

Mr. MacMASTER. That is all.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Mr. Harrison, I wonder if you would look at what I have marked as Exhibits 5029, 5030, and 5031. Five thousand twenty-nine is a report of an interview of two FBI agents, Wilkinson and Hardin, had with you on December 5, 1963; Exhibit 5030 is a copy of a statement or a letter, which you addressed to Chief Curry, dated November 24, 1963, entitled, "Subject: Shooting of Lee Harvey Oswald," and Exhibit 5031 is a copy of--is a report of an interview that Agent Bookhout, [spelling] B-o-o-k-h-o-u-t, had with you on November 24, 1963. Have you looked over these statements today?

Mr. HARRISON. Yes; I have.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, do you want to make any changes or corrections or additions in there in those statements, keeping in mind the testimony that has already been given here today?

Mr. HARRISON. This on Mr. Bookhout's interview, which was over the telephone.

Mr. GRIFFIN. It was?

Mr. HARRISON. It was over the telephone. I was at Love Field when this----

Mr. MacMASTER. To identify that, that is Exhibit 5031 you are referring to.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; let me ask you a question there. Do you know how Bookhout reached you there?

Mr. HARRISON. I had called in to see how long they wanted us to stay out there, and Lieutenant Coulon identified Mr. Bookhout to me over the phone.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did Bookhout ask you, or did anybody ask you, if any other officers were out there with you?

Mr. HARRISON. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And did Bookhout talk to those officers over the phone, also?

Mr. HARRISON. No; he did not.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I see.

Mr. HARRISON. But this one little part right here, I don't recall saying that at all.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. What part is that?

Mr. HARRISON. "Saved a lot of people some trouble."

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, all right. Now, is it possible that you could have said that to him?

Mr. HARRISON. I don't think I did.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Why do you say that you don't think you did?

Mr. HARRISON. Well, I didn't hear it. I mean I heard him say this very plain.

Mr. GRIFFIN. "I hope I killed the SOB," you heard him say that?

Mr. HARRISON. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But you didn't hear him state, "And saved a lot of people some trouble"?

Mr. HARRISON. I don't recall hearing that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Would you do this? Would you take a pen and would you put a parenthesis around from "and" to the end of that sentence, and then would you write in there, "I don't believe I stated that," or whatever you believe that reflects your opinion at this time? Would you initial that?

Mr. HARRISON. I did.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And date it. It is the 25th day. Now, are there any other changes or additions or corrections you would make on there?

Mr. HARRISON. Oh, on this, where it says, "You all know me, I am Jack Ruby, made that several times," he didn't make the statement but once, actually and I don't know where this "several times" came from.

Mr. MacMASTER. Was that just once in your presence?

Mr. HARRISON. Yes.

Mr. MacMASTER. In other words, while you were around and near Jack Ruby, is the only time you heard him was just one time?

Mr. HARRISON. One time.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Why don't you cross out "several times" and write "once"? And why don't you initial it and date it? Anything else on there?

Mr. HARRISON. No. It all seems to be----

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. If you would, sign each of those.

Mr. HARRISON. Where?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, put it down on the same page that I have marked the exhibit, some place where it is legible. Why don't you put it down at the bottom of the page and date it?

Mr. HARRISON. All of them?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. Well, not every page. Just every page that I have marked as an exhibit.

Mr. MacMASTER. Is that all now?

Mr. GRIFFIN. That is all that I have got.

Mr. MacMASTER. Do you have any more?

Mr. GRIFFIN. I do have one other question to ask here.

Mr. MacMASTER. Okay.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Have I or any member of the Commission staff talked with you prior to this deposition?

Mr. HARRISON. No, sir.

TESTIMONY OF HAROLD B. HOLLY, JR.

The testimony of Harold B. Holly, Jr., was taken at 8 p.m., on March 26, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr., assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. HUBERT. This is the deposition of Mr. Harold B. Holly, Jr. Mr. Holly, my name is Leon D. Hubert. I am a member of the staff of the general counsel to the President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy.

Under the authority of the Presidential Proclamation 11130, dated November 29, 1963, a joint resolution of Congress No. 137, and rules of procedure that have been adopted by the Commission, I have been authorized to take your deposition under oath. Now, the general nature of the inquiry of the Commission is to ascertain the facts concerning the death of President Kennedy and the death of Lee Harvey Oswald.

In particular as to you, the inquiry is to determine what facts you know concerning these events, or anything related to them.

I advise you that under the rules adopted by the Commission, you have a right to a 3-day written notice prior to being asked to come for a deposition, but the rules also provide that a witness may waive that right if he wishes to do so.

You have been asked to come because Mr. J. Lee Rankin, the general counsel of the Commission, wrote a letter to Mr. J. E. Curry asking that he make you available. But I repeat, you may either waive the 3-day notice, or if you wish you may insist on the 3-day notice. Do you wish to waive that notice?

Mr. HOLLY. No; I would like to go ahead.

Mr. HUBERT. You mean yes, you wish to waive? You would rather go ahead?

Mr. HOLLY. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Then I will ask you to stand and raise your right hand. Do you solemnly swear that you will tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. HOLLY. I do.

Mr. HUBERT. What is your full name, sir?

Mr. HOLLY. Harold B. Holly, Jr.

Mr. HUBERT. How old are you?

Mr. HOLLY. Forty-seven.

Mr. HUBERT. Where do you live?

Mr. HOLLY. 3429 Antilles, Mesquite.

Mr. HUBERT. Mesquite, it is not in Dallas?

Mr. HOLLY. No; it is Mesquite, Tex., a suburb.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, you are actually a reserve officer of the Dallas police?

Mr. HOLLY. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. How long have you been connected with the reserves?

Mr. HOLLY. Five years, going on six.

Mr. HUBERT. What is your occupation in civilian life?

Mr. HOLLY. General contractor and cabinetwork.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you own your own business?

Mr. HOLLY. Yes, sir. Nineteen years.

Mr. HUBERT. In that business?

Mr. HOLLY. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. I know that you performed some services as a reserve officer on the 22d and 23d, but our inquiry now is as to the functions you performed on the 24th, or perhaps you didn't perform?

Mr. HOLLY. Let's say the 23d and the 24th. The assassination took place the 23d, right?

Mr. HUBERT. No, 22d.

Mr. HOLLY. 22d and 23d.

Mr. HUBERT. That was a Saturday. I am asking about Sunday the 24th.

Mr. HOLLY. I was up here all day Saturday. Sunday, I didn't participate, as well as I can remember.

Mr. HUBERT. You had not anticipated being called?

Mr. HOLLY. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Were you, in fact, called on Sunday?

Mr. HOLLY. I don't recall now. It is pretty vague there. The day of assassination I was called, and the day Oswald was shot, I was called.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, that was the 24th of November, a Sunday.

Mr. HOLLY. Sunday.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, how were you called?

Mr. HOLLY. I beg your pardon, I was here Friday. Friday, Saturday, and Sunday; I sure was.

Mr. HUBERT. And at what time were you called on Sunday the 24th the day Oswald was shot?

Mr. HOLLY. It was the morning. I believe it was around 9 o'clock and they called and said for me to report downtown. They were going to try to move him out around 2 o'clock. I immediately come to town.

Mr. HUBERT. You got into uniform?

Mr. HOLLY. Yes; and at the present time, I don't recall, because I got down about 5 minutes after he was shot. I reported for duty at the entrance of the Main Street entrance to the city hall.

Mr. HUBERT. He had already been shot?

Mr. HOLLY. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. To whom did you speak who gave you that information?

Mr. HOLLY. Lieutenant Kriss.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you receive any assignment?

Mr. HOLLY. Yes. I was assigned to direct traffic and keep traffic from bogging down in front of the city hall entrance. And I stayed there approximately 30 minutes, and then I was reassigned out at Parkland Hospital.

Mr. HUBERT. How did you go out there?

Mr. HOLLY. By the convenience of the city. We was hauled out in a squad car.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you go out with any group?

Mr. HOLLY. Yes; I went out with a group. There were five in our group.

Mr. HUBERT. How long were you out there?

Mr. HOLLY. I was there approximately 3 hours.

Mr. HUBERT. Who was with you in that group?

Mr. HOLLY. Well----

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember the names?

Mr. HOLLY. No; I don't. I don't recall none of the names, because I wasn't familiar with any of the boys.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, do you remember that during the time that you were out at Parkland Hospital another reserve officer approached you and stated that he had seen the man who shot Oswald coming down the ramp?

Mr. HOLLY. No; he didn't approach me, because I approached him. I went over to find where I could get some water. I was stationed where the entrance is where the Governor was, and he told me there was some coffee and water if I wanted, and I went in and when I came back I struck up a conversation with the man, and we were talking about----

Mr. HUBERT. Was he a reserve officer?

Mr. HOLLY. Yes; he was a reserve. And in the conversation he said that he either knew or he saw Ruby down in the city hall, knew of him getting down in there.

Mr. HUBERT. Was he speaking, from what you could tell, of Ruby being down in there on the morning that Oswald was assassinated?

Mr. HOLLY. Yes. I asked him--the conversation went like, well, how in the world could they ever let him in. Everybody knew him, which most reserves do know him.

Mr. HUBERT. You knew him?

Mr. HOLLY. Oh, yes; I knew him. I did business with him. And I would know him if I saw him. But I wasn't stationed down there, so therefore, I don't know.

And he said he saw him down there, or did see of him, or he in someway, one of the reserves had let him in, and he had a lapel pass on.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, do you know who he was, this reserve?

Mr. HOLLY. No. I tried to go through the photographs of who I thought it was. I never have learned if it was him.

Mr. HUBERT. You did pick out a person?

Mr. HOLLY. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know the name of the man you picked out?

Mr. HOLLY. No. Captain Solomon mentioned his name, but I don't recall it.

Mr. HUBERT. Does the name Newman refresh your memory?

Mr. HOLLY. Newman? It's been so long ago. I wouldn't say.

Mr. HUBERT. Was there any doubt about your identification?

Mr. HOLLY. Well, other than I described the man to him, and, of course, I went over the photographs with Captain Solomon on Sunday.

Mr. HUBERT. A week later?

Mr. HOLLY. On that following Sunday after the date. No; it was a week later. I beg your pardon. It was a week later, and I met him up there Sunday, and we went over the photographs with men in their uniforms, and the boy I picked out, Captain Solomon said, "Well, that is one of the men that is down in the basement," and that is the only one I could think it could have been.

And he contacted the man and the man was hunting at that time, and I never did hear of any more of it.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, what I mean is, the man you did pick out, is there any doubt in your mind that you picked out the man you spoke to at the hospital who told you he had seen Ruby?

Mr. HOLLY. There is a little doubt there, yes. I wouldn't be too positive of it. But I feel----

Mr. HUBERT. Have you seen this man since?

Mr. HOLLY. No; I haven't seen him since. I didn't know him and never had seen him before that. But I am pretty positive I picked out the right man, the one that I did see and talk to.

Mr. HUBERT. Let me see if I can get you straight. You say that you are pretty positive that you did pick out the right man, but a little while before you said that you weren't quite sure? There is a little difference between the two?

Mr. HOLLY. I went over several photographs with Captain Solomon and he is the only one that resembles him.

The photographs he showed me were old photographs, so there was a little doubt there, and that is the only part I can be doubted on.

I think he said the photographs he showed me were maybe 3 years old.

Mr. HUBERT. But he didn't get the man and confront you with him?

Mr. HOLLY. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Was this man that you saw a youngish man or middle age or what?

Mr. HOLLY. I would say he was in his thirties, about 37 years old or 36 years old.

Mr. HUBERT. Was he a little husky?

Mr. HOLLY. He was about 165 or 170, about 5'8" or 9", and blue eyes and bald headed.

Mr. HUBERT. He had on a cap?

Mr. HOLLY. Had a cap on, and didn't wear any glasses.

Mr. HUBERT. He had on a hat?

Mr. HOLLY. Had a cap on, and didn't wear any glasses.

Mr. HUBERT. So, the way I see it, among those pictures that Captain Solomon showed you, you picked out the man you thought was the man?

Mr. HOLLY. I still think it was the same man that Captain Solomon--he didn't tell me prior, but after I picked him out, he said that is the only man it could have been, because he was down in the basement, and the way I described it, it fitted the description I had given. He did explain after it was over that the photographs were about 3 years old.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, I think that you passed on the information that this reserve officer had given you to someone, did you not?

Mr. HOLLY. How was that?

Mr. HUBERT. You reported to someone that a reserve officer had told you?

Mr. HOLLY. Yes; I did.

Mr. HUBERT. Who did you report it to?

Mr. HOLLY. I reported it to the CID officer, I guess it was, down on the first or second floor of the city hall.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember who it was?

Mr. HOLLY. No; it was lieutenant someone, through one of the detectives.

Mr. HUBERT. Which detective was that?

Mr. HOLLY. Detective Eberhardt. I gave the information to one of the stenographers up in burglary and theft division, and I typed it out and sent it on down to the lieutenant. Offhand, I don't recall his name. It was one of the investigators on the case.

Mr. HUBERT. Were you contacted to make a statement about your activities?

Mr. HOLLY. The subject, how it come up, one of the detectives was out at the house, and the subject came up that they were trying to find out how in the world Ruby ever got down in the basement. And I said, "Well, my Lord, one of the reserves let him in."

Mr. HUBERT. When was that?

Mr. HOLLY. I would say that was on about a Wednesday or Thursday after the accident. And he said, "Will you make a statement?" And I said, "I will be glad to."

Mr. HUBERT. Did you make a written statement, or was it just oral?

Mr. HOLLY. Oral statement and I signed.

Mr. HUBERT. Did they write it up in the form of an interview, or did he write it for your signature as a letter to the chief?

Mr. HOLLY. A letter to the--it went through--I don't know what procedure it did go through. I just don't know the hand it went into.

Mr. HUBERT. For the purpose of identification, we will see if we can determine whether the written reports you have just been speaking of is one of these, one that I have here. And also in order to get the contents of these two reports into the record, I am going to identify them by marking the first one as "Dallas, Tex., March 26, 1964, Exhibit No. 5109, Deposition of H. B. Holly, Jr.," and I am signing my name on the margin. I notice that it has a second page with two lines, and I am putting my initials in the lower right-hand corner.

The other document is a document consisting of five pages, being an interview, or the report of an interview by two FBI agents, Mr. Dallman and Mr. Quigley. I am marking that as "Dallas, Tex., March 26, 1964, Exhibit No. 5110, Deposition of H. B. Holly, Jr." I am signing my name on the first page and putting my initials on the second, third, fourth, and fifth pages. I would like you, Mr. Holly, if you will, please to read all these, and I want to ask you about the correctness of each one. So I would like you to read it carefully and after you have done so, I will ask you to make any comments you want as to the correctness, make any changes you want, if it is not correct, because neither of these are your own statements. This is what other people said you said. Then I want to find out, too, if there is another report that you, yourself, signed, because they don't purport to be signed by you. So, would you do that, please?

Mr. HOLLY. [Reads report.]

Mr. HUBERT. Now, Mr. Holly, I have shown you, and I think you have read now the exhibits which I have identified as No. 5109, being a report of an interview of you by Jack Revill, said report being made to Chief of Police Curry in a letter dated December 1, 1963. Does that substantially represent what you said?

Mr. HOLLY. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Is anything wrong about it?

Mr. HOLLY. The only thing I can see wrong is, the report wasn't made right after the assassination. It was about 5 days afterwards. That is the only thing I can see.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, of course, this doesn't say when the report was made. Oh, you mean the report about having heard that?

Mr. HOLLY. To Lieutenant Revill there. I believe he corrected that, but it wasn't made right after. Statement says that I made a statement to Sergeant Eberhart.

Mr. HUBERT. I don't see anything in 5109 that indicates you made this report about talking to that man the next day. As a matter of fact, I don't see where this report of an interview by Revill attempts to indicate the day on which you reported that this reserve officer had said these things to you.

I think the other document does that. Well, let's look at 5110, which is the FBI report of interview, I think.

Mr. HOLLY. I believe it was in the FBI report there.

Mr. HUBERT. Yes; on the third page there is of Exhibit 5110, in the last paragraph, there is the following language. "He relayed this information to a close personal friend of his, Detective Gus Eberhardt, who is a regular officer assigned to the burglary and theft bureau. He believed he told Eberhardt this on the following day." Is that the part you think is not correct?

Mr. HOLLY. No; that is not correct.

Mr. HUBERT. When did you, then?

Mr. HOLLY. It was about the Sunday. It was about Thursday of that week, approximately Thursday of that week, he come out to the house, and I was going to ride with him that night, and he made the statement that he was trying to find out as to how Ruby entered the city hall, and I said, "Well, the information you have there I passed on to him." And he said, "Will you make a signed statement to that effect." And I said, "I would be glad to."

Mr. HUBERT. Did you then and there----

Mr. HOLLY. I immediately rode to the city hall and made a report, made a statement to the secretary there in the burglary and theft division.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, now, let me get another book and perhaps we can get that in too.

(Discussion off the record.)

I am now marking for identification a document which is Commission Document 81A.48. It is apparently a copy of a letter dated November 29, 1963, addressed to Mr. J. E. Curry, Chief of Police, by A. M. Eberhardt, Detective. The copy seems to be signed in ink by A. M. Eberhardt. For identification, I am marking that document, although I am not removing it from this file, and "Dallas, Tex., March 26, 1964, Exhibit No. 5111, Deposition of H. B. Holly." I am signing my name, Leon D. Hubert, Jr. That document consists of only one page.

Now, going back for a moment to 5110, that is the FBI report, I think you said that you had read it and that you found it correct, that it is probably a correct record of the interview you had with the FBI agents, except that it was in error when it stated that you had conveyed this information to Eberhart on the day after Oswald was shot. Your recollection was that it was Thursday of that week?

Mr. HOLLY. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. This letter indicates, Exhibit 5111, indicates that that information was passed on to Eberhardt on November 29, which I believe was a Thursday.

Mr. HOLLY. Yes; I don't remember if that is dated or not.

Mr. HUBERT. That is dated November 29.

Mr. HOLLY. That was a Wednesday or Thursday after the shooting?

Mr. HUBERT. The 29th or November 1963, was a Friday night. Could it have been Friday night?

Mr. HOLLY. Yes; it could have been.

Mr. HUBERT. In any case, this Exhibit 5111, you think, is the report that you were speaking of a little while ago in your deposition?

Mr. HOLLY. Yes; that is the only report that I made to Detective Eberhardt.

Mr. HUBERT. I think you said you thought you had signed it.

Mr. HOLLY. I thought I signed that. That is the one right there.

Mr. HUBERT. Exhibit 5111 is the one you were talking about?

Mr. HOLLY. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. But you had the recollection of having signed it? Of course, here we have only a copy of it.

Mr. HOLLY. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. It may be that you did sign the original, but it doesn't indicate that there was a space for you to sign.

Mr. HOLLY. I was thinking I signed it.

Mr. HUBERT. There was no other report than this one here?

Mr. HOLLY. No; no other report other than the one that I talked to Lieutenant Revill about.

Mr. HUBERT. Have you any other statements or comments to make concerning any part of this?

Mr. HOLLY. No; I have covered it pretty well, I think.

Mr. HUBERT. Have you had any interviews with any others than this deposition today?

Mr. HOLLY. No, sir; this is the first time I ever met or seen you.

Mr. HUBERT. Have you had any interviews with any other members of the President's Commission, do you know?

Mr. HOLLY. No; other than the FBI, two FBI officers.

Mr. HUBERT. I am talking about persons who identified themselves as members of the Commission?

Mr. HOLLY. No; none whatsoever.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, sir, thank you very much.

Mr. HOLLY. That is all right. I am glad to be of service.

TESTIMONY OF HARRY M. KRISS

The testimony of Harry M. Kriss was taken at 7:30 p.m., on March 26, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr., assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. HUBERT. This is the deposition of Mr. Harry Kriss. Mr. Kriss, my name is Leon Hubert. I am a member of the advisory staff of the general counsel of the Commission. Under the provisions of the President's Executive Order 11130, dated November 23, 1963, and the joint resolution of Congress No. 137, and the rules of procedure adopted by the Commission in conformance with the Executive order and the joint resolution, I have been authorized to take a sworn deposition from you. I state to you now that the general nature of the Commission's inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate and report upon the facts relating to the assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of Lee Harvey Oswald. In particular to you, Mr. Kriss, the nature of the inquiry today is to determine the facts that you know about the death of Oswald and any other pertinent facts you may know about the general inquiry. Now, Mr. Kriss, you have appeared here tonight by virtue of a general request made by Mr. J. Lee Rankin, general counsel of the staff of the President's Commission to Mr. J. E. Curry, the chief of police, who was asked to make all of you gentlemen available to us. Under the rules adopted by the Commission, however, you were entitled to a 3-day written notice prior to the taking of this deposition, but the rules also provide that a witness may waive this 3-day notice if he wishes to do so. Are you willing to waive?

Mr. KRISS. Yes; I will waive.

Mr. HUBERT. Will you stand so as to be sworn. Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?