Chapter XXXII: Part 32

Mr. GRIFFIN. Nelson was interviewed by the Bureau--Federal Bureau of Investigation on December 4, and the Bureau indicates that he told them, and this is the Bureau's language and not his, talking about his post, he said the other officer assigned there with him was a reserve officer whose name he does not know. He was there for just 3 or 4 minutes, when Sergeant Putnam told them to station themselves just behind the first jail office window, for people were coming in, in regard to jail office business, such as seeing prisoners. They were instructed not to let any unauthorized persons through the door or ramp leading into the basement.

Okay, when I read that I was mistaken as to where I thought he was standing, so that I was under the impression he was pulled off of his post, but that would be entirely consistent. Apparently all they did was to move him a few feet. Well, the jail office window, you have three here. One, two, and three windows--so [indicating]. Well now, did you talk with Bobby Patterson at all?

Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir; I asked him could he say for sure that this man didn't come in his post.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And when did you talk with him?

Mr. DEAN. Some time before I went to the hospital.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you talk with a reserve officer by the name of Newman?

Mr. DEAN. I don't recall the name.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you talk with this reserve officer who was stationed over in this area here, as you have indicated on the map [indicating]?

Mr. DEAN. I asked Sergeant Putnam--in fact, we had talked during the day about this man, whether to keep him or not, and I said definitely keep him there, tell him to remain there. Now, I don't recall talking to this man specifically about seeing if anyone had come through here. I was fairly certain that they hadn't. The main thing I was thinking about was that Ruby told me he came in here. I had no reason to doubt him, but I didn't know how he had gotten in, other than what he had said, just walking down, and I knew that this was putting R. E. Vaughn in dereliction of his duty.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, now; it's my understanding you talked with Patterson before you went to Parkland Hospital?

Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And you talked with Vaughn and Nelson after you went to Parkland?

Mr. DEAN. Well, I probably asked all of them the question, "Did you see this man come in here; do you know him?" And, of course, Vaughn said he knew him. Patterson said he knew him. I don't recall whether Nelson said he knew him or not, but that Patterson and Vaughn both stated, and along with Nelson, that he did not come through their post.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you talk with any of the other men who were stationed down there in the basement?

Mr. DEAN. No, sir; these were the men that I assigned and gave my instructions, and those were the ones that I could talk to.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember, on November 24, talking at all with "Blackie" Harrison?

Mr. DEAN. No, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. About this?

Mr. DEAN. No, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about L. D. Miller?

Mr. DEAN. No, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about McMillon?

Mr. DEAN. No, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, you saw McMillon and, as I understand----

Mr. DEAN. He was with Jack Ruby when we interviewed him up in the jail.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. DEAN. And he asked no questions. I am sure that he stood there and listened, as an interested party, or----

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about Bob Lowery?

Mr. DEAN. No, sir; I didn't talk to him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, after you had passed this information on to Pierce, as I recall, you said that you thought you might have talked with Vaughn some time that afternoon?

Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember anything else you did that afternoon besides possibly talking with Vaughn?

Mr. DEAN. Not anything else particularly, other than asking Nelson and Patterson, along with Vaughn, separately, rather, or individually, that I did ask them did this man come by them, and they said no.

Mr. GRIFFIN. By the time you left work that day, had any instructions been given with respect to preparing reports as to what happened?

Mr. DEAN. No, sir; this was the next morning.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you file a report at the end of the day?

Mr. DEAN. At the end of the day?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. DEAN. No, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you make any notes that particular day, on the 24th?

Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir; my assignments.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And other than your assignments, did you make any other notes?

Mr. DEAN. No, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And do you keep those in a regular assignment book?

Mr. DEAN. No, sir; just a small notebook that I had. I always--when I deal with a group of men, rather than try to remember where I put them, I always write it down.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When was the first time that you made any notes about the events, or wrote a report about the events of the 24th?

Mr. DEAN. November the--I think probably I wrote this report on the 25th, which was the next day, but it's headed November the 26th, but I imagine that's the time the typist got to it. She was doing a lot of typing from then on, but I think the next morning is when I wrote this report.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, do you have the original notes that you made, that you used to write that report up?

Mr. DEAN. This report; yes, sir. This is the one that I will supply to you.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Good. When was the next time that you saw Jack Ruby, after your interview or session with him up there?

Mr. DEAN. The next time I saw him?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. DEAN. In the courtroom during the trial.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Off the record.

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, I am going to hand you what I have marked for identification as Exhibit 5008, which is marked "Dallas, Texas, Sergeant Dean, March 25, 1964, Exhibit 5008." This is actually stapled to Exhibit 5007, but Exhibit 5008 is the report of the interview that you had with FBI Agents Paul L. Scott and Edmond C. Hardin, on December 2, 1963, in Dallas. Will you look at that, Sergeant Dean, and tell me if you had a chance to read that over? Let me ask you first of all, if you have had a chance to read it over?

Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir; last night. There are some corrections [indicating]----

Mr. GRIFFIN. Will you state to us what you think should be corrected in that statement?

Mr. DEAN. On page 1, the last paragraph, I don't know whether it's too important. It says, "Dean recalled that before starting the search of the basement he assigned Officer B. G. Patterson to stand at the Commerce Street ramp leading to the basement." Now, this is actually the exit from the basement, if that means anything. The way it reads here it sounds like that's the entrance.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Why don't you take my pen and change that. You might make it read, "which is the exit"----

Mr. DEAN. Exit from the basement.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; and if you would, just out in the margin, put your initials and the date.

Mr. DEAN. Page 2, paragraph 4, same error, Commerce Street ramp leading into the basement [indicating].

Mr. GRIFFIN. Okay.

Mr. DEAN. I will mark it "exit". Page 4, paragraph 3--off the record.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; all right; that's all right.

Mr. DEAN. It says, "Dean has known Jack Ruby since 1959." This is erroneous.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How should it read?

Mr. DEAN. It should be either 1960 or 1961, whatever date--I could find out and let you know for sure, the time that I came downtown from the Oak Cliff area, as a sergeant. I was assigned to the downtown area, which includes the location of Carousel Club. I have been downtown some 4 or 5 months before I was assigned to this location. So I would say it would have been about 4 or 5 months after I was transferred to the downtown area that I met Jack Ruby.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long were you assigned to that downtown area?

Mr. DEAN. About a year and a half.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And were you a sergeant at that time?

Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have any men working under your direction?

Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How many men worked under your direction down there?

Mr. DEAN. Well, it would vary from the hours that I worked, from 12 to 17 or 17 men, depending on the hours. Twelve regular men, or 13 regular men.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, was Vaughn under your direction at that time?

Mr. DEAN. No, sir. Vaughn has never worked for me directly.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about Nelson?

Mr. DEAN. No, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about Bobby Patterson?

Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir. Patterson worked for me when I was assigned to the area in the 100, district 100, in the downtown area.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And was that the area that Jack Ruby's nightclub was in?

Mr. DEAN. Patterson occasionally worked on the district that Ruby's Carousel Club was on. Not as a regular man.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know if Patterson was friendly with Ruby?

Mr. DEAN. No, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You just don't know?

Mr. DEAN. I don't know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you consider yourself a friend of Patterson's?

Mr. DEAN. Not intimately; no, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you see Patterson on a social basis?

Mr. DEAN. No, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Does Patterson still work under your direction?

Mr. DEAN. No, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Whose direction is he under now?

Mr. DEAN. Sergeant Jennings, W. G. Jennings. He is still assigned to that area. Not the specific district that the Carousel was on, or has been on, but let's see--I don't recall exactly what district he is assigned to; 103 I believe.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Go ahead, if there is anything else. Incidentally, on this date, have we turned the page on that? The date there, why don't you make a correction as to what you think it is, and if you feel, when you check your notes, that you want to correct it even more exactly, why you can be free to do it [indicating].

Mr. DEAN. I would like to clarify this one thing. "On occasions when driving in the area with another officer, he would go up to the Carousel, usually once or twice a week." This is true, as far as once or twice a week, and sometimes three times a week. However, this--with another officer is erroneous. Usually it would be with some friend of mine that would be riding with me, rather than another officer.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Okay. Why don't you put that down?

Mr. DEAN. Mutual friend or----

Mr. GRIFFIN. This would be somebody that would be interested in sort of riding with the police officer, like newspaper reporters do?

Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir. "In addition, Dean said he had gone to the club while off duty on four occasions." I would say four would be the outside, but I think I have been there only three times since I have known him, since 1960 or 1961 [indicating].

Mr. GRIFFIN. Why don't you change that, then. When is the time you were there most recently?

Mr. DEAN. The last time I had been in his place was--well, we will say relative to the shooting, I haven't been in there since, and I think 6 or 8 months before would be the last time I had been in there, and in fact, that long since I had seen Ruby.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know any of Ruby's employees?

Mr. DEAN. By name. No, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But you knew them to talk to?

Mr. DEAN. To speak only. The people that were in the trial, well, George Senator, I didn't know his name. I couldn't place it--knew the face but I didn't know his name until the trial, and he was a bartender regularly at the club.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, was he the bartender there on a regular basis in 1960 or 1961?

Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir. He was a regular there all the time that I worked there, or worked in that area.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who else did you recognize at the trial whom you remember from the Carousel Club?

Mr. DEAN. I don't believe I recognized anyone, other than this fellow George Senator.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there a Negro man named Andy Armstrong that testified at the trial?

Mr. DEAN. I don't know. I don't know Andy Armstrong.

Mr. GRIFFIN. He is one of Ruby's workers there.

Okay. Anything else in there that [indicating]----

Mr. DEAN. Well, I would like for the record to show that my visits while off duty to the Carousel was definitely an exception rather than rule, and it would usually be when out-of-town people would come to town, and this, by my working in that area, had gone in there frequently on duty, I knew--or there had never been any trouble in there, to my knowledge, as far as fights and such as that. I knew it was a safe place for an off-duty officer to go, and interesting to someone that hadn't seen it. So this is the exception that I went there. I recall now, by reading this investigation by the FBI, that soon after I had left the basement after this shooting, or left the immediate area where Oswald was laying, I do recall now asking R. C. Nelson, that was stationed at that doorway, had he come in that way, and he then stated he was positive he hadn't. This was reflected in this--I do remember. I wanted it to show that I do remember now, after reading that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, let me stop you here, Sergeant.

Mr. DEAN. All right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me direct your attention to one portion of that report. Have you read that portion of the report which deals with this lengthy discussion that you and I had about the talk, the one talk you had with Ruby on the date that Ruby shot Oswald; have you read that portion of the report?

Mr. DEAN. In the FBI report?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. DEAN. Let's see. I don't recall reading it. You mean now have I read it?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. Have you just read it?

Mr. DEAN. No; I haven't read it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you find that, or I can maybe find it for you quicker, but would you find that portion in there and would you read that and tell me if that reports everything that you learned from Ruby at that time?

Mr. DEAN. If it's included in this report [indicating].

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. And I don't have simply reference to the discussion about entering the basement, but if it reports everything of importance that he told you during that interview?

Mr. DEAN. I believe that this February 18 report would--the FBI report doesn't include--it has the questions that I asked of Ruby and not of Sorrels, if that's what you mean, it does. But this February 18 report is what [indicating].

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me hand you, then, what I have marked for identification as Exhibit 5010. It's a copy of a letter signed by you, dated February 18, 1964, addressed to Mr. J. E. Curry, chief of police. Did you prepare that letter?

Mr. DEAN. Yes; I did [indicating].

Mr. GRIFFIN. And let me ask you this, is that a true and accurate copy of the actual original letter that you sent?

Mr. DEAN. That's a copy I made myself, a Xerox copy [indicating].

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you write that letter on the basis of any notes?

Mr. DEAN. No, sir; from memory.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you prepare any prior reports to the police department or anybody else, in connection with the events that are recounted in that February 18th letter, other than the letter dated November 26, to Chief Curry, which I have marked Exhibit 5009, and this interview report, which we have designated 5008; are there any other writings that you prepared prior to February 18?

Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir; there is one report that I had written regarding the article in the newspaper, that I had seen Ruby come into the basement.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I see.

Mr. DEAN. Do you have that?

Mr. GRIFFIN. I don't know if I have got that or not. Could you get us a copy of that? I don't know if we have that or not.

Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir; now, I think the FBI made several--or made a report of that, also. The investigation about the department there, I don't know----

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, I know they made an investigation of it, and I don't have the actual copy of the report. I have got the results of their investigation but not the report.

Mr. DEAN. I see.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Other than that report on the newspaper article and these two other exhibits that I have referred to, are there any other writings that you made that relate to the subject matters as recounted in this February 18----

Mr. DEAN. No, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Letter. Now, how did you come to write this letter of February 18, 1964?

Mr. DEAN. Chief Stevenson called me, while I was in the office on that date, and asked me to come up to see him, and I did. And he asked me was I present during the entire interview with Ruby and Mr. Sorrels. I told him I was. And he asked me did I remember most of the interview; could I recollect most of the interview and the answers that Ruby had given and I said, "Yes, sir." Then he advised me to make a report of it, asked me would I make a report of it, recalling everything that I could of that interview. To the best of my knowledge, that's all I could remember. And I did testify to all this stuff in the trial.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is this the first time that you told anyone that Ruby had told Sorrels that he thought about killing Oswald two nights prior when he saw him in the showup room?

Mr. DEAN. Well, I don't recall telling it to any particular person. I knew that this would probably be later used as testimony, I felt, since it was--did make an impression on me, that I could remember it, and it's written as I do remember, just about as it happened, it correlates pretty well, even though we didn't get together with Mr. Sorrels' report.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But you can't remember?

Mr. DEAN. Talking to anyone especially or specifically about what Ruby had told me, other than how he got into the basement and how long he had been there; no, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Or of any particular reference to the statement that Ruby made to Sorrels that you have reported in here, about thinking about killing Oswald two nights before; you can't remember that you ever----

Mr. DEAN. No, sir; I did feel at the time that I would probably testify to this in court. I did witness Mr. Sorrels taking his notes, and I felt if I had to, since I did witness it, I could use the notes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, I think there is one other exhibit that I haven't identified. We have talked about it, and that's Exhibit 5009, which is a copy of a letter which purports to have been prepared by you, addressed to Chief Curry, dated November 26, 1963.

Would you look at Exhibit 5009 [indicating]?

Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir; that's my report [indicating].

Mr. GRIFFIN. And you have read that over many times, have you not?

Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir; would you like for me to sign it?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes, sir; I would like for you to sign both 5008 and 5009.

Mr. DEAN. All right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Are there any additions or corrections you wanted to make to that?

Mr. DEAN. No, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Put a date by that, by your signature also, if you will [indicating].

Mr. DEAN. All right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And let me hand you 5010, and ask you to sign that and date it [indicating].

Mr. DEAN. It's been signed--of course, this is a Xerox copy. Do you want me to go ahead and sign it again?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. DEAN. All right [indicating].

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you take this one here, Exhibit 5008, and would you sign that and date it [indicating]?

Mr. DEAN. Where [indicating]?

Mr. GRIFFIN. On the front page, I think probably is just as well [indicating]. Off the record.

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. GRIFFIN. Sergeant, you and I have been talking here off the record for--I don't have a watch, but I would guess for 15 or 20 minutes, with respect to other matters, and you indicated to me just before we brought the court reporter in, that you had obtained some information that apparently had not been previously made available to the Commission, and I wonder if you could tell us what that is?

Mr. DEAN. It was relative to a telephone call that I received last night at about 2 o'clock in the morning. I didn't mark the time.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where were you?

Mr. DEAN. At city hall. In the office there. The city hall operator had called me and told me that she had a man, or an operator on the line from Victoria, British Columbia, in Canada, and that she had been--this operator had told her she had been talking to a man in Victoria about some films that he had of the assassination, and asked me did I want to take the call, and it wasn't--it was a collect call, and the operator said that she couldn't unless it was by my authorization, but she did tell me she heard this man talk enough that she believed he was serious and had something that possibly could be used by the Warren Commission. And, of course, I heard some of the conversation, and the man sounded rational, and the operator in Victoria, her name was Bernice Williamson, she is the night supervisor of the B.C. Telephone Company, said that she had talked to this man long enough that she thought he probably had something. And so I accepted the call. This man's name was Ralph Simpson. He was calling from 384-3780, and he told me that he had been standing on the southern part of the plaza when the assassination took place, and he had a wide scope movie camera that he believed would have taken in the building and the motorcade at the time the shots were fired; that he had talked it over with his attorney--and the name of the attorney was Batter [spelling] B-a-t-t-e-r, is what I got, and that Batter advised him to call someone here, but not the Warren Commission. And he asked me--when I accepted the call, he asked me what I would suggest, and I told him that first he should mail them to the Warren Commission. And then he asked me had I been to the Warren Commission. He recognized my name, that I had been testifying, and I said, "Yes; and I am scheduled to go back tomorrow night." And he said, "Well, I will send the films to you. They haven't been--". Well, he said they hadn't been developed, and he wasn't going to have them developed, that he would send them to me airmail. This was about 2 o'clock in the night--on the morning of the 24th, this morning [indicating].

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. You have in front of you, Sergeant, a piece of paper?

Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir; what I took notes----

Mr. GRIFFIN. Are those your original notes?

Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Can I mark that for identification?

Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to mark this, "Dallas. Tex., Sergeant Dean, March 24, 1964, Exhibit 5012." Now, let me see if I understand you correctly. This was a collect call placed from Canada to the police department?

Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. By a man by the name of Simpson, Ralph Simpson?

Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you actually talk with Simpson?

Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did the telephone call last?

Mr. DEAN. Four minutes and three seconds, I think.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is this the name of the operator that put the call through, Bernice Williamson?

Mr. DEAN. She was the Victoria operator.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you get the name of the city operator?

Mr. DEAN. The city operator was Patsy. I don't know her last name. Patsy. She is the night operator at city hall.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you indicate that Patsy handled that? Did Patsy listen in on the call?

Mr. DEAN. Yes [indicating].

Mr. GRIFFIN. And have you talked with her about this since?

Mr. DEAN. No, sir; she called back and gave me the time and charges on it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And is there a record of that in the police department?

Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you get that for us?

Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I would appreciate that.

Mr. DEAN. Now, when she called me back to give me the time and charges she said that the operator had further checked this number 384-3780, and that number was--the call was made from the residence of the initials R. H. W., last name [spelling] S-m-e-l-e [indicating].

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who had checked that, now?

Mr. DEAN. The police department----

Mr. GRIFFIN. Patsy?

Mr. DEAN. No, sir; this night supervisor, Bernice Williamson in Canada, had contacted the police department there and asked them could they cross that number, or furnish her the address or name.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Bernice Williamson tell you this after you finished the telephone call?

Mr. DEAN. She told Patsy, the city hall operator this, and this is----

Mr. GRIFFIN. Patsy reconveyed that to you?

Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And you learned this from Patsy after the conversation with Simpson?

Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir; this R. H. W. Smele has an address of 1141 Caldonia in Victoria.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Have you reported this to anybody else?

Mr. DEAN. No, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I appreciate your bringing it to us then, very much.

Would you sign that exhibit, Sergeant?

Mr. DEAN. [Indicating.]

Mr. GRIFFIN. We will certainly look into that right away.

Off the record.

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Sergeant, we have been off the record here awhile, and you indicated that the man said something about having been here on vacation and some other thing. Will you tell us what else?

Mr. DEAN. He said he had been here on vacation and that when he learned of the President's coming, he had stationed himself on the southwestern part of the plaza, toward the railroad tracks, and that he had a wide scope--he referred to it as a full wide scope camera, and that he believed that he had gotten the assassination. He was taking pictures at the time of the assassination, and he believed that he had the building in the background, because it's in direct trajectory of the line of fire. My impression of him was that since he said that he had talked it over with his attorney and didn't know what to do with these things, that he seemed to be scared as to whether to keep them or throw them away or what. When he told me that he would send them to me, that he said, "You can have them. I haven't developed them, and you don't have to send me any copies of them back."

Mr. GRIFFIN. Will you notify us as soon as they receive those films?

Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And turn them over to us?

Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir. You want all the records from the city hall operator?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Telephone call; yes.

Mr. DEAN. This has been signed and dated [indicating].

Mr. GRIFFIN. Okay. Now, I don't know if you have had a chance to read this or not, but this is what I have marked as Exhibit 5011, which is an interview with you by Special Agent Paul Scott of the Federal Bureau of Investigation on December 9, 1963. Would you look that over and then----

Mr. DEAN. Sign it?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Sign it and make any changes or additions that you want to make in it.

Mr. DEAN. [Indicating.]

Mr. GRIFFIN. Then let me state for the record that I appreciate very much the assistance that Sergeant Dean has given us here this evening, and I hope, and I am sure that if anything further comes to light which he thinks would be of value to the Commission, that he will come forward with it voluntarily, as you have here today?

Mr. DEAN. Burt, this--of course, I was cleared of all of this, as far as this newspaper article----

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. DEAN. I was just wondering if you had the FBI report on it?

Mr. GRIFFIN. We do. And I just wanted to make sure that as far as any statements are concerned, that you have made, or report, that you had a chance to look at them, and to my knowledge, I think I have shown you every one that we have on it.

Mr. DEAN. All right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Okay. That's all.

TESTIMONY OF PATRICK TREVORE DEAN RESUMED

The testimony of Patrick Trevore Dean was taken at 4:45 p.m., on April 1, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr., assistant counsel of the President's Commission. Mr. P. T. Dean was accompanied by his lawyer, Mr. Ted MacMasters.

Mr. HUBERT. Note that I am present. Note that Sgt. P. T. Dean is present and Mr. Ted MacMasters assistant city attorney of Dallas, and appearing as attorney for Mister--Sergeant Dean. Now, Sergeant Dean, your deposition was begun on----

Mr. DEAN. I believe it was a Tuesday.

Mr. MacMASTERS. March 24.

Mr. HUBERT. Mr. Burt Griffin as the member of the Commission's advisory staff conducting the examination. At that time you took an oath, I believe?

Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Are you willing to consider that this is simply a continuation of that deposition?

Mr. DEAN. Yes; I am.

Mr. HUBERT. And that you are under the same oath that you were before?

Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. I wish to advise you that I have been authorized by Mr. J. Lee Rankin, general counsel for the Commission's staff to take your deposition under oath also. In other words, both Mr. Griffin and I have been so authorized, and I think he advised you of the general conditions and the right of notice and waiver and so forth?

Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. So that as far as I am concerned, I will just ask you if you have anything to add to your deposition or anything to say at all in any way?

Mr. DEAN. I told Mr. Griffin on that date that I would bring him additional information that he wanted.

One was a record of the telephone call received on the 24th. Now, that would make your interview on the 25th, actually, I believe. Now, no, no; that's right. The morning, early morning hours of the 24th is when I received this call from Victoria, Canada.

That is a record of it from the city hall operator. That was pertaining to the film from the fellow in Alaska--or--correction, in Canada that he said he would----

Mr. MacMASTERS. Do you want to identify this?

Mr. HUBERT. You have handed me two documents and I judge that one of them is a photostatic copy of a front of a document, and the other is a photostatic copy of the rear of that document?

Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Well; I am going to mark them for identification as follows: "Dallas, Tex., April 1, 1964. Exhibit--" We'll use number--5136, continuation of deposition of Sgt. P. T. Dean." And I am signing my name for the purposes of identification and I am signing the second document which you state is a photostatic copy of the back of the document now identified as Exhibit 5136, as follows: "Dallas, Tex., April 1, 1964. Exhibit 5136-A, continuation of Deposition of P. T. Dean." Signing my name on the back of this, and for the purposes of identification and to show that we are both talking about the same document, would you mind putting your name below mine?

Mr. DEAN. All right, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, will you identify what these two documents were? Perhaps we'd better do it again, in the light of their identification numbers, so, let me ask you what are the documents that have now been marked for identification as 5136 and 5136-A?

Mr. DEAN. A record of the city hall's operator receiving a call from Victoria, Canada, on that date of March 24, about 4 o'clock in the morning and at that time I talked to--I believe it is Jack Simpson, or it is Ralph Simpson, and he stated that he had a reel of movie film that he had taken of the assassination and the trajectory of the line of fire which was on the far side of the plaza, which would be on the south side of Commerce Street. Mr. Simpson told me on the phone that he believed he had gotten not only the assassination, but also the building from where the bullet was fired. But I advised him--he wanted to know what to do with this film, and I advised him to send it to the Warren Commission in Washington, and he said that he had talked to his attorney and the attorney, Batter [phonetic] in Victoria, I didn't get the first name, his attorney had advised him to contact someone in Dallas and to send them to whatever place they said other than to the Warren Commission. He then asked me could he send them to me and I told him that he could. I checked with my office then just before coming over here today and the film hadn't come in.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he say he was going to send them by mail?

Mr. DEAN. Yes; he said he would airmail them the next day.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he indicate why he had called you, or just that you were on duty?

Mr. DEAN. Just on the advice of his attorney.

Mr. HUBERT. But, I mean, your particular name?

Mr. DEAN. No; he didn't ask for me particularly. However, he said that he recognized my name from reading of my testimony in the papers.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, he made the call, he was calling specifically to you. You happened to be on duty, and therefore, the call came to you?

Mr. DEAN. That's right, and that is the record of the call received. That is what Mr. Griffin wanted.

Mr. HUBERT. And the other part that you told us about was the substance of a phone call?

Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Right. Okay. Now, if you are going to talk about another document let's get it identified first and get numbers on it. Now. Mr. Dean, you are handing me a document consisting of three pages being apparently a photostatic copy of a letter dated April 8, 1963, addressed to J. E. Curry, Chief of Police. Last page shows "P. Treavor Dean----

Mr. MacMASTERS. I believe that is December 8. You said April.

Mr. HUBERT. Oh, no, no. December 8. Couldn't be April 8, we aren't there yet.

"P. Treavor Dean, Sergeant Police Control Division," and in order that it may be identified and that the record may show what we're talking about, I am marking this first page in the right-hand margin, "Dallas, Tex., April 1, 1964. Exhibit 5137, Continuation of Deposition of P. T. Dean," signing my name below that, and the inscription on the second page, placing my initial in the right-hand lower corner and on the third page I am doing the same, and also ask you to sign the pages and initial them as I have done.

Mr. DEAN. All right.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, sir. Now, do you have any comments to make with reference to this Document 5137, which you have handed me?

Mr. DEAN. No, sir; I believe it is self-explanatory.

Mr. HUBERT. Is this one of the documents that----

Mr. DEAN. Mr. Griffin asked me would I bring.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, sir. Thank you.

Mr. DEAN. Mr. Griffin also asked me to bring a copy, if I had one, of my original notes that I had taken in the basement that day of my assignments and I have those.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, what day are you speaking of? The 24th?

Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir; November 24.

Mr. HUBERT. November 24.

Mr. DEAN. They are not all--all my assignments are not here. However, the majority of them are.

Mr. HUBERT. When you say your assignments, you mean the people you assigned, or the job you were assigned to?

Mr. DEAN. The people that I assigned to various locations in the basement.

Mr. HUBERT. I see. Now, do you propose to let me then have that or a photostatic copy of it, or do you propose simply to dictate the information into the record?

Mr. DEAN. Well, how about me just dictating it and I will keep this?

Mr. HUBERT. All right. Now, if Mr. Griffin's purpose was to find out whether they existed, then perhaps I ought to look at them so I can state I have seen these things myself.

Mr. DEAN. All right, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Therefore, let the record show that as Mr. Dean reads the information he is going to read, I am following him, and if he reads them correctly, I will say nothing. If he reads them incorrectly, or in a way that I do not understand, I will call it to his attention so that we may get it clear.

All right?

Mr. DEAN. My first assignments were made just prior to our searching the basement. They were Officer Vaughn. R. E. Vaughn I assigned to the Main Street ramp, which is the north ramp entering the basement. Officer Patterson, B. G. Patterson to the Commerce Street ramp, which is the exit onto Commerce Street. These men were to be--were assigned to the top of these ramps. Officer Brock was assigned to the elevator in the basement. Officer Nelson was assigned in the hall at the jail doors. Well, in--at the jail window.

Mr. HUBERT. What is that?

Mr. DEAN. This is "Commerce ramp".

All right, now, Officer Jez, I assigned him with Patterson at the Commerce Street ramp.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, of course, these notes are not exactly like that. You have added a few words, but let the record show that there is--displayed to me a paper which has, in substance, all that Mr. Dean has testified to.

Mr. MacMASTERS. You are interpolating your notes, aren't you?

Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir; and adding initials and--yes, sir. These two other men here, I don't know which one for sure, but they are Reserve Officers Fred A. Briederdorf, it looks like [spelling] B-r-i-e-d-e-r--or, B-e-r-d-r-f, and also another man by the name of Hunt, initials of which I don't know, or the first name.

They were assigned to the basement, and I think that one of these two men I assigned to the entrance into the basement, or the machinery room.

Mr. HUBERT. There is a word here.

Mr. DEAN. Reserve.

Mr. HUBERT. Oh, that is reserve----

Mr. DEAN. This is the page where I started to make some traffic assignments and they changed it, so, I--now, these are the traffic assignments just prior to the movement of Oswald. At Commerce and Pearl I assigned Officer Erwin, initials I don't know. At Commerce and Central, Officer Burton. At Central and Main, Officer Wages. At Central and Elm, Officer Gregory. At Pearl and Elm, Officer Tolbert. At Harwood and Elm, Officer Fox. At St. Paul and Elm, Officer Wise. At Elm and Ervay, shows here Brock. Brock. At Stone and Elm, Officer Raz. Akard and Elm, Officer Hibbs. At Field and Elm, Officer Anderson, and at Lamar and Elm, Officer Ferris. Now, these were just tentative assignments. I think in one of my reports that is already in evidence is the permanent assignments, but these are the originals that I made that afternoon which were tentative.

Now, this is just a note that I had written down from a Bob Stewart. He worked for WRR, and he was giving me some information that he had received. I don't remember from where he had received it, but he stated to me, and I had written it down here, a Serge Fliger, he is with Mutual News in Vienna, Austria, and that in essence--now, I can interpret these notes for you, if you would rather.

Mr. HUBERT. Why don't you just read them and then interpret them.

Mr. DEAN. That source of Serge's information from behind the Iron Curtain that a man told him, and he--it was a man that he stated that he trusted completely, that there was a group of dissident Russian soldiers, that this whole thing was an international plot, and that the Communists would kill off Oswald as quick as possible.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, with reference to those last few notes about Fliger, what you have read is not exactly what is in the book itself, but it is rather your----

Mr. DEAN. More of an interpretation of my notes, because I had written it rather hurriedly.

Mr. HUBERT. But, let the record show that as I read the notes the interpretation of them seems consistent with what I read.

Mr. DEAN. I believe that is all that is in here, Mr. Hubert. I believe that's all.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, may I ask this; were all those notes that you have just shown to me and read into the record with interpolations written in your own hand?

Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Were they written at the time that you made the various assignments and so forth?

Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. And that includes also that information about that Serge Fliger from Austria?

Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. All right.

Mr. DEAN. And also, Mr. Griffin wanted me to find, if I could obtain a copy of the--regarding a tape recording. It was an interview with radio station KLIF, and this interview took place about 2:30 on November 24.

Mr. HUBERT. 2:30 p.m.?

Mr. DEAN. That afternoon. Yes, sir; I do have a copy of that and I have listened to it and it is true and correct to the best of my knowledge, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Are you proposing to give me the tape itself, or a transcription of it?

Mr. DEAN. Well, that is a transcript, I assume. I just asked KLIF would they make me a copy of it and this is, a transcript.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you propose to let me have the film, or this little record, or seems to be tape on a regular roll. Do you want it back?

Mr. DEAN. Could I have it back when the Commission gets through with it?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes, sir; but I don't know when that will be, you know.

Mr. DEAN. Well, whenever it might be.

Mr. HUBERT. I am trying to see how we are going to mark this.

Mr. MacMASTERS. Could it be placed in a sealed envelope and initialed across it and seal it and so forth?

Mr. HUBERT. I have placed my initials, LDH, on one end of the tape, and I have done that also, on the other end of the tape and giving the exhibit number of--by marking it "EX, 5138," with ball point pen on both ends of the tape, and then I'm also marking the small box, "5138" on one side, and "5138" on the other side, with my initials on both sides.

Mr. DEAN. Do you want me to initial it?

Mr. HUBERT. Oh, I don't know that that is necessary if you have heard that recording.

Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. And it is a true recording of an interview of you, as I understand it, that you had with some reporter of the----

Mr. DEAN. At KLIF.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember his name?

Mr. DEAN. Glenn Duncan. It is on the tape also.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, sir. You think it is a correct recording of a conversation?

Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, anything else?

Mr. DEAN. No, sir; I, well, when these film, if they do come in, this fellow does send them to me, I will make them available to you.

Mr. HUBERT. You can do so through Mr. Barefoot Sanders. Contact us immediately.

Mr. DEAN. All right, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. I will accept this and place these various exhibits you have given me today in with the other exhibits in the folder that we are putting all these exhibits in.

Mr. DEAN. All right.

Mr. HUBERT. Any other matters?

Mr. DEAN. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. That is all. Thank you very much. Mr. MacMasters, thank you very much.

Transcriber's Notes:

Punctuation and spelling were made consistent when a predominant preference was found in this book; otherwise they were not changed.

Misspellings in quoted evidence not changed; misspellings that could be due to mispronunciations were not changed.

Some simple typographical errors were corrected.

Inconsistent hyphenation of compound words retained.

Ambiguous end-of-line hyphens retained.

Occasional uses of "Mr." for "Mrs." and of "Mrs." for "Mr." corrected.

Dubious repeated words, (e.g., "the nature of the inquiry tonight is to to determine the facts") retained.

Several unbalanced quotation marks not remedied.

Occasional periods that should be question marks not changed.

Occasional periods that should be commas, and commas that should be periods, were changed only when they clearly had been misprinted (at the end of a paragraph or following a speaker's name in small-caps at the beginning of a line). Some commas and semi-colons were printed so faintly that they appear to be periods or colons: some were found and corrected, but some almost certainly remain.

Occasional missing periods at the ends of sentences have been remedied.

The Index and illustrated Exhibits volumes of this series may not be available at Project Gutenberg.

Text uses both "Nelson" and "Nielson"; may or may not be the same person.

Text uses both "Eberhart" and "Eberhardt"; probably the same person.

Text uses both "MacMaster" and "MacMasters"; they appear to refer to the same person, "Ted P. MacMaster", but none of these has been changed.

Page 92: "Mr. Stevenson, my name Leon Hubert." is missing the word "is".

Page 97: "were in the basement; we" was printed with the semi-colon.

Page 104: "I directed by attention" is misprint for "my".

Page 124: Quotation marks in the paragraph beginning "Closing the quote" were printed as shown here.

Page 180: In "10:50 approximately 10:50", the second one was printed as "10.50"; changed here.

Page 180: "onduty" may be misprint for "on duty".

Page 207: "Do you solemnly swear" was misprinted as "your"; changed here.

Page 210: "I would recognize them if I say them" was printed that way.

Page 214: Reference to "Detective Crenshaw" was spelled that way.

Page 245: "I told Goolsby" was misprinted as "Goodsby"; changed here.

Page 262: "I immediately come to town." was printed that way.

Page 265: "The 29th or November 1963" is misprint for "of".

Page 278: "No; Captain Martin" was printed that way.

Page 280: "know what you are thinking is about it" was printed that way.

Page 293: "Let the record show that I am not taking out of the bound" was printed that way.

Page 299: "Mr. HUBERT. Why don't you go ahead" may be misprint for "Mr. GRIFFIN."

Page 307: "How long have you known Officer Harrison" was misprinted as "know"; changed here.

Page 324: "line of newsman" was printed that way.

Page 343: Several instances of "Mr. PUTNAM." that should have been "Sergeant PUTNAM." have not been changed.

Page 344: "not seen my anybody" should be "by".

Page 376: "Mr. WATSON. But, your head was turned away from the area?" probably was asked by Mr. Hubert, and Mr. Watson's response to the previous question is missing.

Page 393: "the spot there were you first saw" perhaps should be "where".

Page 402: "the part mental interview" probably should be "departmental".

Page 408: "Is that correct?" was misprinted as "It"; changed here.

Page 415: "As the title of the Commission would indicate," ends with a comma in the source.

Page 428: "were there four of five" probably should be "or".