Chapter VII: Part 7

Lieutenant REVILL. As I recall, he picked out a picture, and as it turned out, the man that he picked out wasn't even present at the basement of the city hall. He had been fishing, was on a fishing trip, and I talked to this reserve officer, I couldn't tell you his name. There were two of them that came from Arlington directly to the hospital.

Mr. HUBERT. But, in any case, it wasn't Newman?

Lieutenant REVILL. No, sir; he was not.

Mr. HUBERT. Newman is a reserve officer?

Lieutenant REVILL. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. So, the picture Holly picked out as being possibly the man who told him about seeing someone coming through with a pass or something like that sort was not Newman?

Lieutenant REVILL. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. That reserve officer was interviewed?

Lieutenant REVILL. Yes, sir; he was interviewed and the report is in here, if I could find it.

Mr. HUBERT. And your recollection of the interview was that he wasn't even in the place at all?

Lieutenant REVILL. He had been fishing.

Mr. HUBERT. You have no recollection at all of Holly picking out Newman's picture?

Lieutenant REVILL. No, sir; he did not pick out Newman's picture.

Mr. HUBERT. That is to say, in your----

Lieutenant REVILL. In my presence.

Mr. HUBERT. Nor, have you heard that he picked out Newman's picture when you were not there?

Lieutenant REVILL. No, sir; I have not heard this.

Mr. HUBERT. I think the report indicates that you interviewed Ruby?

Lieutenant REVILL. Yes, sir; on two occasions.

Mr. HUBERT. What was the first one?

Lieutenant REVILL. The first occasion, the date would have been on the Sunday following the shooting.

Mr. HUBERT. When? One week later?

Lieutenant REVILL. One week later, yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. I can show you a calendar of----

Lieutenant REVILL. I can give you the date.

Mr. HUBERT. Can you?

Lieutenant REVILL. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Would you do so?

Lieutenant REVILL. Would have been on December the 1st in the county jail. Present at that interview was Lieutenant Cornwall, a jailer, whose name I do not recall. This man was present at both interviews, at Mr. Decker's request.

Mr. HUBERT. The jailer was?

Lieutenant REVILL. The jailer; yes, sir. And this proposed interview took place just outside the cell where Ruby was confined in, I believe it would be the chief jailer's office.

Mr. HUBERT. Will you tell us about what happened?

Lieutenant REVILL. Yes, sir; Lieutenant Cornwall and I, after interviewing all these people, trying to determine how Ruby got into the basement, decided that the best thing was to talk to Ruby himself, so, we finally got clearance to go talk to him and we did, and----

Mr. HUBERT. Now, by that time you had already heard from the press that he had said that he had come through the Main Street ramp?

Lieutenant REVILL. Something to the effect that, "You may not believe me, but I walked down the ramp." Anyway at the interview, Ruby was there with Cornwall and I, and this unknown jailer, and he refused to disclose how he gained access into the basement stating that this is a part of his defense, so, we then had Sheriff Decker call Tom Howard, who was representing Ruby at that time as a legal counsel. Mr. Howard came to the jail and was present throughout the interview. Ruby was very precise as to his activities on Friday, the date of the shooting of President Kennedy. He refused to discuss with us any of his activities on Saturday, November 23 or November 24, the day of the shooting.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he give you any reason?

Lieutenant REVILL. This was part of his defense, so he stated. The interview approximately took 45 minutes. It was a lot of----

Mr. HUBERT. Did you ask him specifically whether the story in the press, that he had come through the Main Street entrance, was correct or not correct?

Lieutenant REVILL. Yes, sir; I asked him this, and he refused to discuss it. He said that he did not want to get anyone in trouble.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you pursue that?

Lieutenant REVILL. Yes; I did. I was assigned to this committee to find out what happened and I really wasn't concerned who we got in trouble, because if someone was wrong, then they suffer the consequences and I asked him about officers by name who were present in the basement, if they had seen him or talked to him, and he wouldn't discuss it. Knowing Jack Ruby, Jack Ruby is the type of individual that can't be anywhere for a period of time without talking to someone.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you mention to him specifically Roy Vaughn's name?

Lieutenant REVILL. Yes, sir; the officer----

Mr. HUBERT. At the Main Street exit?

Lieutenant REVILL. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. HUBERT. He made no comment?

Lieutenant REVILL. No, sir; he wouldn't discuss this. I asked him about Detective Harrison. The films showed that Ruby was standing at Harrison's shoulder.

Mr. HUBERT. What did he say about that?

Lieutenant REVILL. He became very upset.

Mr. HUBERT. Did--describe how he was upset?

Lieutenant REVILL. This is when he said--well, he got real angry at me and cussed me and told me----

Mr. HUBERT. Ruby did?

Lieutenant REVILL. Oh, yes; told me I was a hatchet man and trying to get the man's job.

Mr. HUBERT. When he said you were trying to get the man's job, that is Harrison's job?

Lieutenant REVILL. He meant Harrison's job, so, what I did, was later got it approved to put Harrison on the polygraph to determine if he had seen Ruby prior to the shooting and if he had talked to Ruby. Well, the polygraph examination showed that Harrison had no knowledge of Ruby being present.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you interview Harrison, too?

Lieutenant REVILL. Yes; I did. Showed him the film.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you sort of put him through any cross examination?

Lieutenant REVILL. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. What is your opinion of his veracity? Do you think he is telling the truth?

Lieutenant REVILL. If you believe a polygraph examination; he is.

Mr. HUBERT. I was interested in your impression.

Lieutenant REVILL. Yes, sir; and if this is being recorded, then I'd rather not state an opinion as to his truth and veracity.

Mr. HUBERT. I understand. Did you mention on that first occasion any other names to Ruby? I think you have mentioned already, Vaughn and----

Lieutenant REVILL. I mentioned the officers who were in the positions to have seen Ruby.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you mention to him the name of Daniels, ex-police officer?

Lieutenant REVILL. I may have. I might have asked him if he knew Daniels.

Mr. HUBERT. But, in any case, that is all of your questions. He refused to discuss and at this time he--his lawyer wasn't present?

Lieutenant REVILL. On the second interview, which would have occurred on December the----

Mr. HUBERT. Before you leave that, I want to get a little bit more information concerning this, I think you said, "Fit of anger," when he cursed you and told you you were a hatchet man.

Lieutenant REVILL. What upset him----

Mr. HUBERT. Did he say any other things?

Lieutenant REVILL. What upset him was that I was involved in this thing. When I walked in he said something to the effect, "Well, the Intelligence people are involved in it now. They think I am a Communist." I don't know what gave him that idea, but I have known Jack Ruby since 1953. I have never been a friend with him. I knew him enough to talk to him. Lieutenant Cornwall took the position of being his friend, and I was the foe, and that is the way we conducted our interview. We were unable to get any information from him.

Mr. HUBERT. But the mention of Harrison, apparently is the thing that set----

Lieutenant REVILL. Set him off, and I have never been satisfied, personally, with Harrison's statement. Of course, this is my personal opinion.

Mr. HUBERT. I think that kind of answers the other question.

Lieutenant REVILL. Yes; it does. They were reluctant--I say, "They," the other members of the committee were reluctant to have him submitted to a polygraph examination, but I thought that this was one way of determining if he was truthful or not.

Mr. HUBERT. It was as a result of your insistence that he was put under one?

Lieutenant REVILL. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, perhaps we can go to the second interview. On what date was that?

Lieutenant REVILL. This would have occurred on the 3d of December.

Mr. HUBERT. Tuesday?

Lieutenant REVILL. On a Tuesday, yes, sir. The afternoon of December 3. What we had been attempting to do was to put Jack Ruby on a polygraph machine, and his lawyer, Tom Howard, had been approached during the first interview as to doing this. He stated that there were other lawyers coming into the case and that he would have to have their permission before agreeing to let Jack take this examination.

On Monday we communicated with Tom by telephone and he kept hedging with us, and telling us he had not heard from the other lawyers. By "Tom," I mean Tom Howard, the lawyer. On Tuesday, we discussed it again with him and he stated that he was still trying to work this thing out. So, Cornwall and I again decided--that we would go directly to Jack Ruby. He was the person involved, and we would give him the opportunity to submit to the examination. If he wanted to, fine. If he doesn't want to then it's also fine. So, we went to Jack on the 2d--on the 3d of December and gave him the opportunity to take the polygraph.

Mr. HUBERT. That is to say, you asked him?

Lieutenant REVILL. Asked him, yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Was his lawyer present then?

Lieutenant REVILL. Not in the beginning. We later called Tom Howard to the interview so that he could be present, and they refused to have Jack submitted.

Mr. HUBERT. At first when you asked Jack about going on the polygraph machine prior to Tom Howard's being present, what did he say?

Lieutenant REVILL. He said--during the second interview he said that his lawyer would have to----

Mr. HUBERT. All right, then his lawyer came and----

Lieutenant REVILL. They declined.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you talk about the basement?

Lieutenant REVILL. Tried to.

Mr. HUBERT. What was the result of that?

Lieutenant REVILL. And again, this was part of their defense, and----

Mr. HUBERT. Did he show any anger at you then?

Lieutenant REVILL. Yes; I think it was a carryover from the first interview, but this was a strategy that we used. Let him be angry with me, thinking maybe that he might tell us something, but he never did.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you mention Harrison's name on the second interview?

Lieutenant REVILL. I possibly did, but at this time he was more composed, and there was no--I don't recall any outbursts.

Mr. HUBERT. I gather that the second interview was not fruitful, in that nothing----

Lieutenant REVILL. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. No information was gathered?

Lieutenant REVILL. Neither interview was fruitful, other than from his outburst. It led me to believe that possibly he had talked to some officer, or had been seen by some officer prior to the shooting, but I was never able to confirm this.

Mr. HUBERT. At the time you saw Ruby, I take it you had not interviewed this man, Ray Rushing?

Lieutenant REVILL. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. And didn't know anything about it?

Lieutenant REVILL. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. By the way, how did you find out about it?

Lieutenant REVILL. He called me.

Mr. HUBERT. Ray Rushing called you?

Lieutenant REVILL. Yes; I had assisted him, oh, approximately a year ago on a problem he was having with one of his preachers. He has got several preachers in his employment, and it was--involved a theft, and I was able to assist him, and he called me.

Mr. HUBERT. What date, about?

Lieutenant REVILL. When he called me?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Lieutenant REVILL. It was during the trial. During the picking of the jurors. The specific date, I do not recall.

Mr. HUBERT. Anyhow, he came in and you interviewed him and made a verbal report to Alexander.

Lieutenant REVILL. Oh, Alexander was present at the interview.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know whether the result of that interview was passed to the FBI or to any Government agencies?

Lieutenant REVILL. No, sir; it was not.

Mr. HUBERT. Nor is there a written report?

Lieutenant REVILL. No, sir; no written report. Rushing was reluctant to take the stand.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he say why?

Lieutenant REVILL. Yes, he did. Because of his fight with the liquor industry they would use this to fight him with. Any publicity they might get of a derogatory nature would hurt him. We tried to emphasize the point that this would not be derogatory publicity.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you point out to him that the position was somewhat inconsistent with the fact that he was a volunteer?

Lieutenant REVILL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. What did he say?

Lieutenant REVILL. He decided he would testify if his testimony was needed.

Mr. HUBERT. What was his statement as to his original motivation for reporting this matter, that is to say, that he had seen Ruby?

Lieutenant REVILL. I don't believe he ever said what motivated him to report this incident.

Mr. HUBERT. Was he ever asked, that you know of, why he had delayed so long?

Lieutenant REVILL. Yes, sir; I asked him that myself.

Mr. HUBERT. What did he say?

Lieutenant REVILL. Well, he used the same story, that he did not want to become involved in this thing because of his fight or his crusade to dry up the liquor industry.

Mr. HUBERT. But, how did he then explain the fact that he had volunteered?

Lieutenant REVILL. He didn't explain it. Now, this is an assumption on my part. I believe this is why Mr. Alexander was reluctant to use him, because Mr. Rushing is the type that there is a Communist under each tree or each rock.

Mr. HUBERT. How old a man is Rushing?

Lieutenant REVILL. Late forty's, or early fifty's.

Mr. HUBERT. Has he been in the Dallas area long?

Lieutenant REVILL. No, sir; he had just recently moved to Dallas from South Dakota. He tells me he is a personal friend of Senator Mundt and the Governor of South Dakota and other influential people, which may or may not be true.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you check to see whether he actually does have a church?

Lieutenant REVILL. Yes, sir; he is on the radio throughout the Nation.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, you showed me prior to the commencement of this deposition, a large folder which you identified as--which is identified from the title page of the jacket cover "File No. INT--"

Lieutenant REVILL. That's intelligence.

Mr. HUBERT. "Intelligence 25--1 through INT--intelligence 25--subject Jack Ruby, DPD," which, I believe means Dallas Police Department. "36398," which is the jacket, I suppose, and folder of the special services bureau?

Lieutenant REVILL. Well, yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And you also advise me that most of this information, or most of this folder, all except actually the first five pages are reports that have been built up after the shooting?

Lieutenant REVILL. Yes, sir; this is correct.

Mr. HUBERT. You state to me also, I think, that this jacket has been made available to the Secret Service?

Lieutenant REVILL. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Did they make copies of it? Do you know?

Lieutenant REVILL. They made copies of much of this information.

Mr. HUBERT. You dealt with Mr. Sorrels?

Lieutenant REVILL. Not directly with Mr. Sorrels himself. Some of his agents. If I might use that, I might be able to explain it more fully. If it is necessary for the record----

Mr. HUBERT. Well, I was considering making it a part of the record, but I don't want, obviously, to take it away from you and I don't have authority at the present time to subpena it.

Lieutenant REVILL. I will make you copies of anything you want.

Mr. HUBERT. That is what I wanted to get at. If copies have been made already and turned over to the Secret Service, that would be unnecessary.

Lieutenant REVILL. For example, here was toll calls, telephone long-distance calls placed from the telephone at the Carousel at 1312-1/2 Commerce. The Ruby residence, at 223 South Ewing, and also the Vegas Club at 3508 Oak Lawn, and also his sister's residence, Eva Grant's.

Mr. HUBERT. As of what date?

Lieutenant REVILL. These go back to September 24, 1963, through--correction on that. Some of them go back to May of 1963.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, let's deal with it this way, suppose I check to see how much of this the Secret Service, or the FBI has?

Lieutenant REVILL. The FBI has this, because I gave it to them personally.

Mr. HUBERT. The whole thing?

Lieutenant REVILL. Of this particular----

Mr. HUBERT. Analyses of phone calls?

Lieutenant REVILL. The phone calls.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, dealing with the whole report, suppose we do it this way, if we find that there is not, in possession of one of the Federal agencies, the entire record, I may ask you at a later time to make it available for photostating, or if you could do it----

Lieutenant REVILL. We can do it. Anything we can do.

Mr. HUBERT. And then what we would do is that you could execute an affidavit instead of having to come and make a deposition to the effect that the attached report is true, is a true and correct copy of the originals. I think that is possibly the best way.

Lieutenant REVILL. Any way that it is the easiest for you.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, do you have any other things that you would like to say?

Lieutenant REVILL. No, sir; I can't think of a thing.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, now----

Lieutenant REVILL. Wish there was something I could do to shed some light on it.

Mr. HUBERT. Was it a part of your function to check out all rumors concerning connections between Ruby and Oswald?

Lieutenant REVILL. Yes, sir; it was.

Mr. HUBERT. Or between Ruby and other groups from the left, right, and middle of the road, or whatnot?

Lieutenant REVILL. Yes; this was our function.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you, in fact, check out those that came to your attention?

Lieutenant REVILL. All that came to our attention, yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Is there a special report on that checkout?

Lieutenant REVILL. There are many reports. Each lead that came in as a possible connection, investigation was conducted and a report submitted concerning that specific rumor.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, every rumor was investigated and an individual report made on it, but they are not collected together anyplace?

Lieutenant REVILL. No, sir; no synopsis.

Mr. HUBERT. They are not part of this document 81-A? The investigation that you identified earlier?

Lieutenant REVILL. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you think there are copies of these various reports that could be made available to us?

Lieutenant REVILL. Yes, sir; I can make them available to you.

Mr. HUBERT. I would appreciate it if you would, because if you have a lot of that checkout work that would be helpful. How much of a job would it be to photostat all of those things? Did you turn them over to the FBI?

Lieutenant REVILL. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Or any other Federal agent?

Lieutenant REVILL. Anything that they wanted we gave to them.

Mr. HUBERT. I understand that, but I mean, this mass of documents, as I gather, are individual reports on individual rumors and so forth, you didn't turn those over?

Lieutenant REVILL. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. As a block?

Lieutenant REVILL. Now, I say we didn't. Let me qualify this, our reports that we make up, a copy is submitted to Chief Curry daily. Now, what he does with these reports, I do not know. He may have turned these over to some Federal agency.

Mr. HUBERT. I tell you what I would like for you to do, if you please, is to find out if they have been turned over to the FBI. I know a lot of rumors have.

Lieutenant REVILL. All right.

Mr. HUBERT. It may be that all that you ran out and reported on they have too, and therefore, it would be repetition to have them in there, but what we would be interested in is the copy of the reports and investigation of those reports or rumors that have not been turned over to the FBI. Now, I wonder when you could let me know?

Lieutenant REVILL. Let you know today.

Mr. HUBERT. All right.

Lieutenant REVILL. And if they have not, what we will do is pull from our file copies, and we will make copies available to you of each and every investigation that we conducted of a connection, or rumor, or connection between Ruby and Oswald.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, make photostatic copies and turn them over to me.

Lieutenant REVILL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. I would appreciate it and just write at the bottom of it, if you will, and sign it, that this is one of the investigations concerning a rumor, conducted by you, or whoever it was.

Lieutenant REVILL. Do you want this as to each individual report, or collectively?

Mr. HUBERT. You would have to initial each individual report so that we would be sure.

Lieutenant REVILL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. That those are the reports that you referred to in this deposition.

Lieutenant REVILL. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. That would be very helpful to me. Then you can turn that over to me and we will make it a part of this deposition. In other words, you would certify that these reports are the ones that you were talking about during this deposition, and that to the best of your knowledge, they are correct. In effect, it will be as though you were here or under oath telling us that that is correct and that will close the record up. The only other way would be to have you come here and identify each one and I am trying to avoid that----

Lieutenant REVILL. Let me ask you a question. These reports that we make reference to were submitted by officers under my supervision.

Mr. HUBERT. Yes; well, I see your point.

Lieutenant REVILL. Will each one of these officers need to initial them, or can I do this?

Mr. HUBERT. Well, we'll have the understanding that this was done under your supervision, that you can't vouch for the absolute accuracy of every one of them, but that it is a report made in the course of police department business and that you and the police department rely upon those reports.

Lieutenant REVILL. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. I think that will be fine. Have you been interviewed by any member of the Commission's staff by--prior to the deposition of this morning, and other than the interview that you and I had just preceding this interview this morning?

Lieutenant REVILL. No, sir; I have not.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, as to the interview that you and I had this morning before this deposition began right here in this room have we, in this deposition, covered all that we talked about in that interview?

Lieutenant REVILL. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Is there any material information that we talked about in the interview that has not been brought out in the deposition?

Lieutenant REVILL. I do not know of any.

Mr. HUBERT. That's it.

TESTIMONY OF CAPT. JAMES MAURICE SOLOMON

The testimony of Capt. James Maurice Solomon was taken at 2 p.m., on March 26, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr., assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. HUBERT. This is the deposition of Capt. J. M. Solomon of the Dallas Police Department. Captain Solomon, my name is Leon Hubert. I am a member of the advisory staff of the general counsel of the President's Commission.

Under the provision of Executive Order No. 11130, dated November 29, 1963, and the joint resolution of Congress No. 137, and the rules of procedure adopted by the Commission, in conformance with that Executive order and joint resolution, I have been authorized to take a sworn deposition from you, Captain Solomon.

I state to you that the general nature of the Commission's inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate and report upon the facts relating to the assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of Lee Harvey Oswald. In particular as to you, Captain Solomon, the nature of the inquiry today is to determine what facts you know about the death of Oswald and any other pertinent facts you might know about the general inquiry.

Captain Solomon, you have appeared today by virtue of a general request made to Chief Curry by Mr. J. Lee Rankin, who is the general counsel on the staff of the President's Commission.

Under the rules adopted by the Commission, you are entitled to a 3-day written notice prior to the taking of your deposition. But the rules also provide that any witness may waive that 3-day notice if he wishes to do so. Now, I would like to ask you if you are willing to waive the 3-day notice?

Mr. SOLOMON. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, then; would you please raise your right hand.

Do you solemnly swear that you will tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. SOLOMON. I do.

Mr. HUBERT. Will you please state your full name, Captain?

Mr. SOLOMON. James Maurice Solomon.

Mr. HUBERT. What is your age, Captain?

Mr. SOLOMON. Fifty-four.

Mr. HUBERT. And your residence?

Mr. SOLOMON. 1502 East Ohio.

Mr. HUBERT. What is your present occupation?

Mr. SOLOMON. My occupation at the present time at the police department is reserve coordinator.

Mr. HUBERT. You are a member of the Dallas Police Department?

Mr. SOLOMON. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. How long have you been a member of the department?

Mr. SOLOMON. Thirty years last September.

Mr. HUBERT. Your particular assignment now is to coordinate the reserve affairs?

Mr. SOLOMON. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Of the Dallas Police Department?

Mr. SOLOMON. My offices are at the police academy, and I am used out there in training recruits.

Mr. HUBERT. Were you in that same position during the period November 22 to 24, 1963?

Mr. SOLOMON. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. I would like you to state for the record just how the reserve program of the Dallas Police Department is set up, because I don't think we have it in the record otherwise.

Mr. SOLOMON. Well, I am sure you don't. The reserve operates different in every city that I know, and just to their particular needs.

Now, the reserve organization in Dallas is strictly what the name implies. It is, really a reserve intended to be called upon when there is a catastrophe, some real bad emergency, to augment our manpower.

It is a semimilitary organization in that we call it the reserve platoon. It has three companies commanded by a captain. Each company has three platoons. And each platoon has three squads. There are approximately--it fluctuates just a little bit--but there are approximately 300 men in the organization.

Mr. HUBERT. Who is the reserve captain?

Mr. SOLOMON. There are four reserve captains. Now, the reserve major is Major Tropolis, the major in command. We call him the reserve commander. He is George Tropolis.

Mr. HUBERT. Who are the captains?

Mr. SOLOMON. The captains are J. E. Marks, C. O. Arnett--I believe you talked to him last night--L. C. Crump and O. S. Muller.

Mr. HUBERT. Do these men train at regular intervals?

Mr. SOLOMON. Yes, sir. They are all required to go through a training program of about 72 hours. They do that 1 night a week. Takes about 8 months to complete that before they are used in any way, before they are given a uniform or anything of that nature.

After they complete this training, they are outfitted with a uniform at their own expense, and from then on the participation that they do is considered observation training.

In other words, there is a program set up whereby they report at least two times a month. We have it set up twice a month, and mandatory that they come every third month. If they don't we drop them.

But each reserve is required to report at least once a month for observation training. He can do this in a squad car, in the jail office, or dispatcher's office, or in any phase of the police operation, really, and he is in uniform, and he works right alongside the regular officer and just assists him in his work in anything he wants him to do if he has a belligerent prisoner, but still that is considered observation training.

Here in the last year or so, we have been using our reserves more maybe like an auxiliary, but there have been times such as a parade or football parade--in other words, it wasn't an extreme emergency, but it was an event that we realized we needed more manpower, and they were anxious and willing and eager to help us, and they were being in uniform and were doing a good job.

You want me to continue?

Mr. HUBERT. Do these men get any pay for this?

Mr. SOLOMON. No. There is no pay at all.

Mr. HUBERT. As a matter of fact, they buy their own pistol and uniform?

Mr. SOLOMON. Yes. They buy their own initial uniform. After that their uniforms are maintained with the old uniforms that the regular officers outgrow or something like that.

Mr. HUBERT. I gather from what you have said that you are rather strict as to the training program that these people must observe, otherwise you drop them?

Mr. SOLOMON. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. What about the basic selection of these people? How do you go about that? What are the criteria you use to select them?

Mr. SOLOMON. We have just an application form similar to what anybody would fill out in applying for a job, which is for their background, their schooling, what type of work they have been engaged in, where they have lived, and so forth. Then, of course, I submit that application to our personnel bureau which runs a background check on them, criminal and civil, or any court record they might have that might show their emotional stability or we run a credit check on them for bad debts or something like that, that kind of indication that they are not stable. And traffic arrests.

If it is somebody out of the ordinary, why we are kind of strict along that score. I have these reserve captains that I just mentioned that comprise the reserve staff, and each applicant I get after the personnel board submits their findings, they interview the men, and they have some information to go on there, and whether he is accepted to go to school. After they interview him and ask him questions about trying to feel out if they think he is emotionally suited for that kind of work.

Mr. HUBERT. What, in your opinion, is it that interests a man to want to be in the reserve program?

Mr. SOLOMON. Well, that may be a vocation a little bit. You know, before I got into the program, I thought maybe it was just a group of people that were just trying to--they were just eager, I would say, in other words.

I thought they were, how should I say it, I just felt like they were kind of overeager, or just nosy, so to speak, and they just wanted to see around. But after I got into the program, I was amazed to find the caliber of men. I have only been in 7 years. I went in 1957. It was begun in 1952. And the man that had it then has since made a promotion to inspector, and I was assigned out there.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, you have satisfied yourself, I gather, that the motivation of these people for getting in the reserves is that they consider it a civic duty?

Mr. SOLOMON. A civic duty, yes, sir; civic minded.

Mr. HUBERT. It is not just that they want the authority of the uniform?

Mr. SOLOMON. Yes, sir. Of course, we have applicants like that. It is the duty of the staff, in a drawn-out process of training, which is really drawn out 8 months, and long enough to observe them, to eliminate the ones they don't feel are suitable. I nearly always start off with a class of 50 men and I rarely ever graduate over 30--27 to 30.

During that period of time some naturally drop out and some I ask to leave, or just wash out, one way or another, as quickly as I can. After all, it is a public relations program, and if I understand somebody is in there that I know will get us in trouble, I find some excuse for him to leave.

Mr. HUBERT. So, actually, about 60 percent of the people who start ultimately get into the program?

Mr. SOLOMON. That's right.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you watch their conduct very carefully? On duty, of course I know, but off duty too?

Mr. SOLOMON. Well, yes. We have had a few occasions where a few got into some trouble. I guess just drinking or some did get into some bad debts and embarrass us, but we counseled with them. And I have had to let some go. Percentagewise this hasn't been much greater than in our regular department.

Mr. HUBERT. All right. Now, I want to get to the matter of the interview you had with Harold Holly, who I think is a reserve officer?

Mr. SOLOMON. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Can you state in your own words just what that was all about?

Mr. SOLOMON. Well, Holly was with us a long time. He was in the organization, I have forgotten how many years, but I don't guess that is important.

But frankly, Holly was--he is confused. I am not exactly satisfied that he is sure about what he is saying. His statements were so general, such a general nature, and when I showed him the pictures he was unable to positively identify them.

This man that he did pick out and said that he looked most like the man that was in the basement was W. J. Newman. He was in the basement, but he wasn't out at Parkland Hospital where he told them he saw him, and I just got the impression that Holly was--he just wasn't too reliable a witness.

Mr. HUBERT. What did he say to you? Of course, we will get his testimony, but what do you remember that Holly said to you?

Mr. SOLOMON. Well, he first approached me--you see, I was at the courthouse down in the area when Oswald was shot, so I knew immediately from the previous slaying that one of our big headaches was going to be at the Parkland Hospital, and I rushed on out there to try to set up a little security out there. And Holly showed up out there after awhile, and he made the statement to me that he thinks he knew a man--that is the way he put it, that he thought he saw one of the men out there that was in the basement of the city hall who knew something about that. And I said, "Who was it," and he said, "I couldn't tell you, but I would know him if I saw him."

Mr. HUBERT. Did he say the man was in uniform?

Mr. SOLOMON. Yes; he said he saw him out there at Parkland Hospital, so I tried to check.

Mr. HUBERT. This was told you at Parkland Hospital?

Mr. SOLOMON. Yes; this afternoon.

Mr. HUBERT. The 24th?

Mr. SOLOMON. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he indicate that he thought he was a reserve officer?

Mr. SOLOMON. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. That is why he told it to you, I suppose?

Mr. SOLOMON. Yes; right. So I tried to find out who he was talking about, and he went with me and we couldn't find anybody that he thought he saw. And just from the way he talked to me, I just lost confidence in what he was trying to tell me. But I pursued it as far as I could, naturally, and asked him if he could identify some pictures, and I got all the pictures of the men that reported out there, and he picked out this man. And from there on, I didn't question him any further.

Mr. HUBERT. He did pick out the picture of W. J. Newman and he said that was the man?

Mr. SOLOMON. He said he thought it was, it looked most like him. I don't think that it was, but it looked most like him.

Mr. HUBERT. Of course, Newman was subsequently----

Mr. SOLOMON. He was interviewed by Jack Revill.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever talk to Newman yourself about the matter?

Mr. SOLOMON. No; I didn't engage him in any conversation about it because I knew they were going to and I just didn't want to get him upset or say anything. I didn't know what he wanted to exactly question him about.

Mr. HUBERT. So that you have not talked to Newman about what he might have seen or thought?

Mr. SOLOMON. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Or what he reported or didn't report?

Mr. SOLOMON. No; that is right.

Mr. HUBERT. Were you present at the time in the basement, at the time Oswald was killed?

Mr. SOLOMON. I was not. I was at the county courthouse.

Mr. HUBERT. You were not in the basement itself?

Mr. SOLOMON. No.

Mr. HUBERT. You don't know anything about what happened?

Mr. SOLOMON. They were anticipating trouble.

Mr. HUBERT. You were in the city hall?

Mr. SOLOMON. No.

Mr. HUBERT. I thought you meant the Dallas Police Building?

Mr. SOLOMON. No, sir; that is the county courthouse.

Mr. HUBERT. I am going to mark for identification a document purporting to be a report of an interview with you, Captain Solomon, made by FBI Agents Hughes and Mabey on December 9, 1963, composed of two pages, and I am identifying it by marking along the right margin line, "Dallas, Texas, March 26, 1964, Exhibit 5106, Deposition of Capt. J. M. Solomon," and I am signing my name on the first page and putting on the second page my initials in the lower right-hand corner. Captain Solomon, have you read this document?

Mr. SOLOMON. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. So that we may recognize that we are talking about the same thing, would you put your signature at the bottom and your initials on the second page.

Mr. SOLOMON. I don't think that this is what I did awhile ago. You want my initials here?

Mr. HUBERT. Just write by the margin and initials by the second page.

Mr. SOLOMON. [Signs and dates.]

Mr. HUBERT. Now, you have read that document, I think, Captain?

Mr. SOLOMON. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Is that a correct report of your interview with the FBI Agents?

Mr. SOLOMON. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Is there anything that is omitted or that you want to change, or modify?

Mr. SOLOMON. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Captain, do you know anything about this matter other than what we have talked about, that you would like to put into the record, sir?

Mr. SOLOMON. No, sir; I do not.

Mr. HUBERT. All right. Now, have you been interviewed by any member of the Commission staff?

Mr. SOLOMON. No.

Mr. HUBERT. As a matter of fact, before the commencement of this deposition, I did not interview you?

Mr. SOLOMON. No.

Mr. HUBERT. I think, Captain, that I mentioned the word "pistol" a moment ago in connection with arming of the reserves?

Mr. SOLOMON. Did you? I didn't recall it.

Mr. HUBERT. You indicated to me that actually these men are not armed with firearms?

Mr. SOLOMON. No; they are not armed. Would you want to make part--this part of the record? This is what I call an information sheet about what the reserve is. A lot of times a citizen calls me and wants to know something about it, and I mail them that.

(Hands to Mr. Hubert.)

Mr. HUBERT. All right. I will accept this. I will mark on the front page, Dallas, Tex., March 26, 1964, Exhibit 5107. You call that a brochure?

Mr. SOLOMON. I call it an information sheet. We generally refer to it as a poop sheet.

Mr. HUBERT. I am writing on this sheet, "Exhibit 5107, deposition of Capt. J. M. Solomon." I am signing my name, and for identification, if you will sign yours?

Mr. SOLOMON. Yes. That just gives a little more detail than what I told you about it, and I had forgotten that. That might be important that they are not armed. That is why we don't let them work in any capacity unless they are in the company of an officer.

Mr. HUBERT. On the day in question, to wit, the 24th of November 1963, the reserve officers were in uniform but of course not armed?

Mr. SOLOMON. That's right.

Mr. HUBERT. I notice that this Exhibit 5107 contains information about the minimum standards that are required?

Mr. SOLOMON. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. For admission and maintaining the status of a reserve officer, is that correct?

Mr. SOLOMON. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Can you state that these minimum standards are in force?

Mr. SOLOMON. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. One other question. Can you state that the reserve officers that were on duty on the 24th did meet these minimum standards?

Mr. SOLOMON. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you have anything else to say?

Mr. SOLOMON. Well, I don't suppose you want to know that we had some on duty during the Presidential Parade? Is that important?

Mr. HUBERT. It might be in another aspect of the matter, but the one I am inquiring about, it is not. However, I am sure that the information that you have given me, generally speaking, should be made a part of the record, and that is why I have done that. Thank you very much, sir.

Mr. SOLOMON. You are so welcome.

Mr. HUBERT. I appreciate your coming down.

Mr. SOLOMON. All right. Thank you very much, sir.

TESTIMONY OF M. W. STEVENSON

The testimony of M. W. Stevenson was taken at 7 p.m., on March 23, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr., assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. HUBERT. This is the deposition of Assistant Deputy Chief M. W. Stevenson of the Dallas Police Department.

Mr. Stevenson, my name Leon Hubert. I am a member of the advisory staff of the general counsel of the President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy.

Under the provisions of Executive Order 11130, dated November 29, 1963, joint resolution of Congress No. 137, and the rules of procedure adopted by the Commission in conformance with the Executive order and the joint resolution, I have been authorized to take a sworn deposition from you.

Mr. Stevenson, I state to you now, that the general nature of the Commission's inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate, and report upon the facts relating to the assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of Lee Harvey Oswald, and in particular as to you, Mr. Stevenson, the nature of the inquiry today is to determine what facts you know about the death of Oswald and any other pertinent facts that you may know about the general inquiry.

Mr. Stevenson, you have appeared here today by virtue of a general request made by the general counsel of the staff of the President's Commission.

Under the rules adopted by the Commission, you are entitled to a 3-day written notice prior to the taking of this deposition. But the rules provide also that a witness may waive this notice of the taking of his deposition. Are you willing to waive this notice in time?

Mr. STEVENSON. I am; yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, will you rise and be sworn, please.

Do you solemnly swear that you will tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. STEVENSON. I do.

Mr. HUBERT. Will you please state your full name, your age, your residence, and your occupation, and how long you have been in that occupation?

Mr. STEVENSON. M. W. Stevenson. I am 60 years of age. I reside at 3452 Boulder Drive. I am with the Dallas Police Department. Have been for 36 years.

Mr. HUBERT. What position do you now occupy with the Dallas Police Department?

Mr. STEVENSON. I am deputy chief, commanding the criminal investigation division.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you hold that same position during the period November 22 to 24 of 1963?

Mr. STEVENSON. Yes; I did.

Mr. HUBERT. How long have you held that position?

Mr. STEVENSON. Since November of 1954.

Mr. HUBERT. Generally speaking, what are the functions of your job? What are your duties and responsibilities?

Mr. STEVENSON. I am in command of the criminal investigation division, and as such, I am responsible for the criminal investigation division of the Dallas Police Department.

I coordinate the work among the five bureaus which constitute the criminal investigation division.

Mr. HUBERT. Would you state what those bureaus are, please, sir?

Mr. STEVENSON. I have a homicide and robbery bureau, an automobile theft bureau; I have a juvenile bureau; a burglary and theft bureau; and a forgery bureau.

Mr. HUBERT. Could you tell us now who was in charge of each of those bureaus during the period November 22-24, of 1963?

Mr. STEVENSON. Captain Fritz was in charge of the homicide bureau as the immediate supervisor. Captain Jones was in charge of the forgery bureau. Captain Nichols was off that day, and I don't know which lieutenant was on.

Mr. HUBERT. You say, "that day." I was really speaking of the 3-day period.

Mr. STEVENSON. Captain Nichols, I am sorry, was in charge of the automobile theft bureau. Capt. F. M. Martin was in charge of the juvenile bureau. Capt. W. C. Fannin was in charge of the burglary and theft bureau.

Mr. HUBERT. Just to get the record clear, insofar as Captain Nichols is concerned, you indicate he was off on 1 day of the 3-day period. Which day was that?

Mr. STEVENSON. I believe that was the 24th.

Mr. HUBERT. Now each one of these bureau chiefs reports to you and is responsible to you, is that correct?

Mr. STEVENSON. That's right; yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Who are you responsible to?

Mr. STEVENSON. To the assistant chief of police.

Mr. HUBERT. Who is that?

Mr. STEVENSON. Chief Charles Batchelor.

Mr. HUBERT. In the course of this examination, it would be helpful to us if you would try to state an approximate time as to each episode or fact that you testify to, and also indicate whether the fact or matter or episode that you are testifying to is within your own knowledge; that is to say, gained from your own observation, or whether the information you give us was obtained from someone else, in that case, tell us if you can remember who gave you the information.

Mr. STEVENSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, would you just give us briefly an account of what you did from about 12:30 on November 22 on forward.

Mr. STEVENSON. At about or approximately 12:30 p.m., on the 22d, I was at the Trade Mart on Industrial, as I had charge of the officers and the security of the building for the luncheon of President Kennedy.

At about 12:30, approximately, I was notified by Secret Service Agent Grant and Captain Souter that the President had been shot. We didn't know how severe. It was stated that he was on the way to the hospital.

I immediately contacted Captain Fritz and two of his homicide men and relieved them from their assignment at the Trade Mart and assigned them to the investigation. As soon as I had done that, I relieved 13 other detectives and supervisors. I believe it was 13. I told them to notify headquarters they were available for assignment, and if no assignment, to report to the Texas Book Depository, as it was reported that there was a possibility the suspect might still be in the building.

After that, as fast as I could safely in my own opinion relieve the balance of men who I had on duty, because it had not been announced to the entire group there what had happened--that was at the request of the Secret Service that we didn't want a stampede there--as fast as I could relieve the others, I started relieving and putting them on duty and telling them to report to headquarters or notify headquarters they were available for assignment and any assistance they could give.

At approximately 1 or 1:15, I would say, Mr. Eric Jonsson notified the group of people in the Trade Mart that the President had been shot and had succumbed. Then as soon as we could empty the building, we relieved everyone and put them all back on duty with instructions to report to headquarters, where we kept them on duty as long as we needed any on any of the assignments. Chief Batchelor was still at the Trade Mart when we finally relieved all of the men.

He and I left the Trade Mart and drove to Parkland Hospital to see if we could render any assistance out there. When we got out there, we found Mr. Lawson of the Secret Service. He stated he would be ready in a few moments, to transfer the President's body to Love Field to be flown back to Washington. He had no escort. He asked if we would escort the hearse bearing the body to Love Field. We told him that we would. He, and I believe it was a member of the White House staff, rode in the car with us. We led the hearse to Love Field. Arrived at Love Field----

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know what time you left the hospital, approximately?

Mr. STEVENSON. I would say around 1:40, that is as near as I could say offhand, Mr. Hubert. I would say 1:40 to 2 o'clock.

Mr. HUBERT. So you provided the escort for the hearse leaving the hospital about 1:40?

Mr. STEVENSON. About 1:40 or 1:50. It's got to be somewhere in there, because the body was not held at the hospital but a short while.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you know Jack Ruby prior to the time that he shot Oswald?

Mr. STEVENSON. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Of course, you have seen pictures of him since, I take it?

Mr. STEVENSON. Oh, yes.

Mr. HUBERT. While you were at the hospital, and I would like you to state if you can, the time you arrived there, did you see Jack Ruby at any place around the hospital?

Mr. STEVENSON. No, I did not. In fact, I did not get out of the car. I sat in the car by the radio while Chief Batchelor walked into the hospital to see if we could be of any further assistance.

Mr. HUBERT. That was about what time that you arrived there, Mr. Stevenson?

Mr. STEVENSON. I would say we arrived at the hospital around 1:40.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, then go on.

Mr. STEVENSON. After we reached Love Field, the Secret Service men loaded the casket onto the President's plane. They told us that they had called Judge Sarah T. Hughes to administer the oath of office to President Johnson.

She arrived in a short time. We remained at Love Field until she administered the oath and the plane was airborne. After the President's plane was airborne, we left and came back to the city hall. We arrived back at the city hall around 4 o'clock, I would say.

Mr. HUBERT. When you say city hall, do you mean police department?

Mr. STEVENSON. Police Courts Building, our headquarters.

Mr. HUBERT. For the record, I wish you would describe the relationship between what is the police building and the municipal building of the city hall.

Mr. STEVENSON. The Police and Courts Building is what was, until a few years ago, the city hall proper. A new building was constructed adjacent to this building and adjoining it just east of the Police and Courts Building.

It is now ordinarily referred to as the city hall, the building which is on the corner of Main, Harwood and Commerce, which is the old city hall, now known as the Police and Courts Building, and houses the jail, the police department, and one or two offices of our city government. But primarily it is referred to, or should be referred to as the Police and Courts Building.

Mr. HUBERT. All right. Now, go on. So you arrived back at the police department.