Chapter XXVII: Part 27

Mr. VAUGHN. I went immediately, after I took this man to the basement, I seen another officer that was right there in the basement and I asked him--they had already told him to go back to the squad, and so I run on up to 511, which is the patrol office, and Lieutenant Pierce was up there and I asked him if he wanted me to go ahead and stay on that position on the ramp out there, or what he wanted me to do and he said to go ahead and check back in service with the dispatcher and go back to the squad, and that was about, I would say, somewhere around 1 o'clock, and I went on back out and I answered a call, I believe I answered a couple of calls, and I answered one out in East Dallas and while I was out of the car, getting out of the car going up to talk to the people, they called--I heard a call for me to call 401, at Parkland Hospital, which is the officer's room out there at Parkland, and so I went ahead and got the information concerned with the call and I got back to the car and went to the phone and I called. I called Parkland Hospital and talked to Captain Talbert, and Captain Talbert asked me if I had seen Jack Ruby that day and I said, "No." He asked me if I knew him and I said, "Well, I know him to the point that probably if I had met the man on the street in a crowd I wouldn't have recognized him, but to the point that if I had some occasion to talk to him, I believe I would," and he asked me if I had seen him and so I told him "No," and I began to wondering about it and I went on and checked out of service and went to the jail office.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, Captain Talbert did not tell you that there was some idea that Ruby had gone by you and got into the basement in that way?

Mr. VAUGHN. Well, he may have possibly stated something like that--I don't recall, actually.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, you said a moment ago you got to thinking and worrying about it.

Mr. VAUGHN. Well, actually when he asked me if I had seen Ruby that morning--I don't really recall if he said whether that is the way he is supposed to have come in or anything else. Well, I went on, like I said, and I checked out and I went to 511 where I think I seen Lieutenant Pierce and he told me that that's how Ruby said he had come into the basement.

Mr. HUBERT. About what time was that?

Mr. VAUGHN. Oh, I would say it was somewhere around 2 or 2:30.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you ask him who Ruby had told that to?

Mr. VAUGHN. I don't believe I did.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know now who he told it to?

Mr. VAUGHN. Well, I understood, of course--I don't know definitely--I understood he told Mr. Sorrels and Detective McMillon and several more--I don't know.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever talk to Pat Dean about it?

Mr. VAUGHN. Dean asked me one time if I knew what Ruby had said, I recall, and this was sometime later, and I said I knew what he had said--that that's how he had gotten in.

Mr. HUBERT. Did Dean tell you that Ruby had told him that?

Mr. VAUGHN. I don't believe he did, Mr. Hubert, I can't recall exactly what it was.

Mr. HUBERT. How long after the event did you have this conversation with Dean?

Mr. VAUGHN. Oh, it may have been possibly the same day--later that afternoon, or maybe the next morning, I don't recall.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he approach you about it or did you approach him?

Mr. VAUGHN. I actually don't recall.

Mr. HUBERT. Did any of your superior officers question you about whether Jack could have gotten by you?

Mr. VAUGHN. Yes, they questioned me quite extensively about it. That was on Sunday it happened, and I worked Monday, and I think it was--I talked to Lieutenant Pierce some, I believe, and Tuesday I was off and so Tuesday morning around 9 o'clock they called me at home and told me to come in and write a report and so I got up and went down there and wrote a report Tuesday, and I was off Wednesday. So Wednesday night I was supposed to be off Thursday at that particular time--I had three days off that week, and I think it was a holiday fell in there somewhere--Thanksgiving is what it was--and Wednesday night they called me at home, Lieutenant Pierce called me. I don't recall that it was--whether it was 7 or 8 or 9 o'clock, and told me to come in and go to work Thursday morning, that Chief Fisher wanted to talk to me, and I came in and went ahead and went to work and I worked until, I believe, 8:30 or 9 and I got a call to report to 511 on a mark-out.

Mr. HUBERT. What is a mark-out?

Mr. VAUGHN. That means you are out of service. The dispatcher will show you being somewhere else, and so when I went up there, Chief Fisher, Captain Talbert, and Lieutenant Pierce, I believe, was all sitting in this little assembly room and they were talking, and I didn't say anything else--I didn't say anything to them, and so within a few minutes Chief Fisher asked me as I recall, now maybe I'm a little bit wrong, as far as he asked me, but somebody asked me if I was ready to go up to his office and I said "Yes," and we went on up to Chief Fisher's office which is up on the third floor and I was accompanied by Lieutenant Pierce and Captain Talbert, so Chief Fisher questioned me about it quite extensively, and I told him the exact story that I had in my report and I have told you, and then he asked me--he said he didn't doubt my integrity, but would I take a lie detector test and I told him--yes, I would take a lie detector test and I went in and Detective Bentley, who was operating the polygraph, and so I went in and took the test.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you know at that time that Daniels had said that he had seen somebody go by you?

Mr. VAUGHN. No, sir--I had contacted Daniels, of course--I didn't actually clear my conversation when I talked to him about it--I had contacted Daniels--I remember seeing him there, after personally knowing Daniels--I knew him by sight, and he knew me by sight, and so----

Mr. HUBERT. When did you contact Daniels?

Mr. VAUGHN. It was on Monday morning.

Mr. HUBERT. And you did so, I suppose, because you knew of the possibility that was being talked about that Ruby had passed by you and you thought that he was there and he might know?

Mr. VAUGHN. I knew he was there--I remember seeing him.

Mr. HUBERT. What did he tell you?

Mr. VAUGHN. Well, I called him at home--he has a business down in South Dallas, but it wasn't open--that was the day of the President's funeral, and I called him at home and I believe his wife answered the phone, and I asked her if I could speak to him, and so he come to the phone and I told him who I was and I said, "I remember seeing you down there yesterday, and I just want to ask you something." I said, "Do you recall this car--this Lieutenant Pierce's car coming out of the basement?" And he said, "Yes, sure." And, I says, "Well, did you see anybody go down that basement while that car was coming out?" He said, "No, definitely not; there was nobody." And, I told him, I said, "That's the way Ruby said he got in," and I thanked him and left.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you ask him whether he saw anybody come by you out to--after the Pierce car had passed through?

Mr. VAUGHN. No, sir; I don't recall asking him that.

Mr. HUBERT. He didn't tell you in any case that he had seen somebody?

Mr. VAUGHN. He said there definitely--he said there was definitely nobody went down that ramp but that car.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he tell you that he had ever seen anybody go through?

Mr. VAUGHN. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he deny he had ever seen anybody go through?

Mr. VAUGHN. Yes, sir; he said he definitely did not see anybody go through.

Mr. HUBERT. And was the conversation such that when he told you that, you understood him to mean at any time whatsoever?

Mr. VAUGHN. The only part I was asking him about was the point when that car come out, Mr. Hubert.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, his denial then that he saw anybody come through, you think, because of the nature of the conversation, was limited to whether anybody came through while the Pierce car was going through?

Mr. VAUGHN. That was the only part that my intention was to ask him about--was that particular one situation that arose there, because the rest of the time I was in the ramp.

Mr. HUBERT. Tell me this, after the conversation and the examination by Fisher and the lie detector test, and so forth, was there any kind of disciplinary action taken against you by the police department?

Mr. VAUGHN. No; I had my efficiency cut.

Mr. HUBERT. That's one thing I am interested in--tell us about that.

Mr. VAUGHN. Well, I got cut four points.

Mr. HUBERT. Is that a drastic cut?

Mr. VAUGHN. Well, for me it was. Of course, in some cases it isn't.

I mean, it's just all according to----

Mr. HUBERT. Well, you see, we don't know what the efficiency cut of four points means in terms of severity, and that's what we would like to know.

Mr. VAUGHN. Well, normally for the last 3 or 4 years I have always carried a 90 efficiency, which is a fairly high efficiency, and I got cut four points on one certain thing, which I'm not familiar enough on how they grade on that--to actually explain it to you, but I went up to the civil service board when I got my efficiency and checked to see who, of course, they keep a record of anybody that changes your efficiency. My efficiency was changed by Chief Fisher. It was cut from a 90 to an 86 and on one particular phase of how they grade you--on dependability.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you ascertain that that efficiency cut was done because of the Ruby incident?

Mr. VAUGHN. Well, I didn't think--I thought possibly it was over the Ruby incident and I went and talked to one of my supervisors and I didn't feel that I should have had a cut on my efficiency under the circumstances but the point to me--there has--they have never actually proved that Jack came in that way.

Mr. HUBERT. When you spoke to this officer, your superior officer about the fact that you didn't think you should be cut, what did he say?

Mr. VAUGHN. Well, he said he didn't know what I was cut for.

Mr. HUBERT. Who was that, by the way, what is his name?

Mr. VAUGHN. I believe that was Sergeant Jennings, if I'm not mistaken.

Mr. HUBERT. You know you talked to Fisher about it?

Mr. VAUGHN. Well, I was going to see Chief Fisher, as a matter of fact I got the lieutenant to talk to Chief Fisher and he told Chief Fisher that I did want to see him, and at that time Chief Fisher was involved in some other kind of business he had--I don't know exactly what it was, but he was busy. Then Lieutenant Pierce told me that I shouldn't go see Fisher at this time. He said, "If you will wait, I will talk to Fisher."

Mr. HUBERT. By the way, this efficiency cut, is that on the basis of a year or a month or what?

Mr. VAUGHN. Six months.

Mr. HUBERT. And this was made about January 1, I guess?

Mr. VAUGHN. Yes, sir; I think the efficiency ends in the month of January.

Mr. HUBERT. Did Rio Pierce ever report back to you as to whether he had spoken to Fisher or not?

Mr. VAUGHN. Yes, I talked to Lieutenant Pierce, I believe it was a couple of weeks ago, and he said it was the first opportunity he had had a chance to talk to Chief Fisher, and my understanding I got from him was that Chief Fisher said it was for letting Tom Chabot in the basement.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, you got the impression from Pierce, that the efficiency cut was not related to the Ruby incident, but rather to the Chabot incident?

Mr. VAUGHN. Yes; to Chabot.

Mr. HUBERT. I think we need a bit more information as to the severity of this cut. Could you give us examples of what point cut they give for what?

Mr. VAUGHN. Well, you might get 1 or 2 points--I've seen them get cut as high as 13 points.

Mr. HUBERT. For what?

Mr. VAUGHN. Well, just for different things.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, what would be--what would a four cut be the result of?

Mr. VAUGHN. Well, normally a 4 point cut wouldn't be too severe, because actually--well, I had a 90. I got cut 4 points--I got an 86, which is still a fairly good efficiency, but to me, like I said, under the circumstances and the things I felt it was severe because I didn't quite understand it--that was the point on that.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, were you in the police building on the 23d--the day before?

Mr. VAUGHN. Yes, sir; I was there in and out.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you see Ruby then?

Mr. VAUGHN. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Were you in the police building on the 22d of November?

Mr. VAUGHN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you see Ruby around there then?

Mr. VAUGHN. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you happen to go to that assembly when Oswald was brought down to see the press?

Mr. VAUGHN. No, sir; I don't know what time that was, but at that particular time we were working days and we got off at 3 o'clock.

Mr. HUBERT. I show you three statements which have been marked for identification as follows: a copy of a letter dated November 26, 1963, addressed to J. E. Curry in two pages and I have marked it for identification, "Dallas, Tex., April 17, 1964, Exhibit 5334, Deposition of Roy Vaughn," and I have signed my name on it and since it has a second page, I have put my initials at the right-hand bottom corner of the second page, and the second document, which is an interview of you by FBI Agents Lester and Larson, dated December 1, 1963, and for purposes of identification, I have marked this, "Dallas, Tex., April 17, 1964, Exhibit 5335, Deposition of Roy Vaughn." I have signed my name on that and I have put my initials in the lower right-hand corner on the second, third, the fourth and the fifth pages of that document, and then there is another document, a report of an investigation of you by Agents Hughes and Dallman, dated December 19, 1963, and I have marked that for identification on the first page as follows, "Dallas, Tex., April 17, 1964. Exhibit 5336, Deposition of Roy Vaughn," and I have signed my name below that and I have marked the second, third and fourth pages with my initials in the lower right-hand corner.

I think you have had an opportunity to read these three exhibits?

Mr. VAUGHN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you find any corrections, changes, or modifications that you wish to make in the document, Exhibit 5334, the letter to Chief Curry?

Mr. VAUGHN. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you find any modifications that you wish to make in the document that has been identified as Exhibit 5335, the FBI interview on December 1, 1963?

Mr. VAUGHN. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Would you take the document and tell me what changes or what errors there are or modifications you wish to make?

Mr. VAUGHN. This part----

Mr. HUBERT. Now, you are pointing to the second page, the second paragraph which is numbered with a (1)--what do you have to say about that?

Mr. VAUGHN. The time was probably 10:15 and they've got 10:30.

Mr. HUBERT. Is that the only thing you find in that?

Mr. VAUGHN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. What other things?

Mr. VAUGHN. Well, in No. 6.

Mr. HUBERT. That is the paragraph that is numbered with (6) on page two?

Mr. VAUGHN. It says, "Thomas Carbet, known to Vaughn to be a city employed mechanic, was on business of the Dallas Police Department in a squad car. In connection with Carbet, Vaughn invited him down"----

Mr. HUBERT. Actually, they have Carbet, is that wrong?

Mr. VAUGHN. Actually, it's Chabot, but I think that's what I told him, but that's what I meant.

Mr. HUBERT. You mean Chabot, when you actually told him Carbet. The man who is referred to in this paragraph you are talking about, Paragraph 6 on page two, was really Chabot, is that right?

Mr. VAUGHN. Yes, sir [spelling]; C-h-a-b-o-t, and that's what I have--what he advised me that he had been sent down for, checking the parking situation.

Mr. HUBERT. I don't quite get what you said is wrong with that paragraph.

Mr. VAUGHN. Well, that would be all right as far as the way it is written--yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, have you any comment about it?

Mr. VAUGHN. Well, now, the comment was, as I recall, I did tell the two FBI agents that were there that Chabot advised me that he had to check the parking situation in the basement.

Mr. HUBERT. And that is omitted from that paragraph?

Mr. VAUGHN. Yes; that is omitted from that paragraph.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, turning to page three and it is the last long paragraph on that page.

Mr. VAUGHN. And it says that, "Approximately 11 a.m. a large crowd"--I don't know how they would specify a large crowd--I said I suppose it was probably half a dozen people standing outside the ramp.

Mr. HUBERT. So, you wish to correct that?

Mr. VAUGHN. I want to change the large--from large to that.

Mr. HUBERT. You wish to change "large crowd at 11 a.m." to "about half a dozen people"?

Mr. VAUGHN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Were there any other corrections or modifications on that document?

Mr. VAUGHN. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. You have read it through and you believe it correctly represents the content and substance of the interview?

Mr. VAUGHN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Now; I ask you whether you have any comments or changes or corrections with reference to the FBI report which has been identified as Exhibit 5336?

Mr. VAUGHN. No; that's correct.

Mr. HUBERT. That's correct altogether?

Mr. VAUGHN. That's correct.

Mr. HUBERT. Mr. Vaughn, would you be willing to state that if a person were to read the three reports that we have identified as Exhibits 5334, 5335, and 5336, and if he were to read your deposition here, that he would have the truth so far as you know?

Mr. VAUGHN. Yes, sir; I would.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, have you ever been interviewed by any other member of the Commission staff?

Mr. VAUGHN. No, sir; I have not.

Mr. HUBERT. Thank you, sir.

Mr. VAUGHN. All right. Thank you.

TESTIMONY OF DETECTIVE JAMES C. WATSON

The testimony of Detective James C. Watson was taken at 10 a.m., on March 26, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr., assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. HUBERT. This is the deposition of James C. Watson of the Dallas Police Department. Mr. Watson, my name is Leon Hubert. I am a member of the advisory staff of the general counsel of the President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy.

Under the provisions of President Johnson's Executive Order 11130, dated November 29, 1963, a joint resolution of Congress 137 and rules of procedure adopted by the Commission in conformance with the Executive order and the joint resolution I have been authorized to take a sworn deposition from you, Mr. Watson. I state to you that the general nature of the Commission's inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate and report upon the facts relating to the assassination of President Kennedy and subsequent violent death of Lee Harvey Oswald. And in particular, as to you, Mr. Watson, the nature of the inquiry today is to determine what facts you know about the death of Oswald and any other pertinent facts you may know about the general inquiry. Now, Mr. Watson, you have appeared here today by virtue of a general request made to Chief Curry by Mr. J. Lee Rankin, who is the general counsel on the Staff of the President's Commission. Under the rules adopted by the Commission you are entitled to a 3-day written notice prior to the taking of this deposition, and the rules also provide that a witness may waive his 3-day written notice and I will ask you now if you are willing to waive the notice?

Mr. WATSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Will you please stand and raise your right hand and be sworn?

Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. WATSON. I do.

Mr. HUBERT. Will you please state your full name?

Mr. WATSON. James C. Watson. James Colvin Watson.

Mr. HUBERT. Your age?

Mr. WATSON. 43.

Mr. HUBERT. Where do you live, sir?

Mr. WATSON. 2743 Clover Lane, Dallas.

Mr. HUBERT. Clover Lane. What is your occupation and how long have you been so occupied?

Mr. WATSON. City detective. I have been with the police department 15 years, going on 16 years. Been a detective about 8 years.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, were your particular assignment and duties on November 22, 23, and 24 the same as today? That is to say, same department?

Mr. WATSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. What is that?

Mr. WATSON. Auto theft bureau.

Mr. HUBERT. Normally, of course, members of the auto theft bureau would have nothing to do with homicide and so forth?

Mr. WATSON. No, sir; they just took men out of each bureau to help out when they had the lunch out at The Trade Mart.

Mr. HUBERT. And you were simply assigned to assist in the transfer of Oswald?

Mr. WATSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. And you were on duty that day?

Mr. WATSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, I have marked for purposes of identification what appears to be a photostatic copy of a letter dated November 22, 1963, addressed to J. E. Curry, chief of police, apparently signed by you, consisting of two pages and for the purpose of identification I mark the first page as follows, to wit: "Dallas, Tex., March 26, 1964, Exhibit 5102, deposition of J. C. Watson," and I have signed my name. That inscription is in the right-hand margin of the letter, and on each page I have placed my initials at the bottom of the page. I think you have read that statement?

Mr. WATSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Is that statement correct? Does it contain the truth?

Mr. WATSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Any modifications or deletions or additions that you wish to make concerning that letter?

Mr. WATSON. No, sir; only difference in that one that apparently either FBI or Mr. Scott wrote, I show that I was in Jack Ruby's place, and it says, "several" there, and I have only seen him one time prior to the time this happened, and I only saw him after the shooting.

Mr. HUBERT. I think it would be proper for you--when we get to discussing the FBI documents that you repeat that comment.

Mr. WATSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. I have also marked for the purposes of identification a letter to Chief Curry dated November 30th, 1963, by C. C. Wallace and P. G. McCaghren concerning an interview evidently with you. For the purposes of identification I mark that with the following inscription, "Dallas, Tex., March 26, 1964. Exhibit 5103, deposition of J. C. Watson," and I sign my name. That consists of one page. Have you read that, sir?

Mr. WATSON. Yes, sir; I have.

Mr. HUBERT. That's correct; isn't it?

Mr. WATSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, in order that the record may show that we are both talking about the same document I would like you to sign your name below mine on both documents and initial the second page, as I have done.

Mr. WATSON. Initial those pages?

Mr. HUBERT. No; sign your name below mine. Right there. That's right.

Mr. WATSON. And initial the second page?

Mr. HUBERT. Initial the second page just below my initial. While we are on that second page I notice that is a photostatic copy and--the signature, is that yours?

Mr. WATSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, then, would you sign your name below mine on the document marked Exhibit 5103? Now, I show you a document purporting to be a report by FBI Agent Scott of an interview of you which took place, apparently, on November 25, 1963, and for the purposes of identification, I have marked that document in the right-hand margin with the following inscription, to wit: "Dallas, Tex., March 26, 1964. Exhibit 5104. Deposition of J. C. Watson. Leon D. Hubert, Jr." I wonder if you would sign below my name so as the record may show that we are talking about the same document?

Mr. WATSON. This is the one?

Mr. HUBERT. You are going to have an opportunity to make the correction. Just for the purpose of identification put your name on it. Now, as to this document, which has now been signed by both of us and identified as 5104, I believe you have some comments to make?

Mr. WATSON. I believe--I thought it was, main letter, but it was my second letter that states that I only saw Jack Ruby one time and the FBI letter taken from it where they show that I had saw him on several occasions. I only saw him one time. We went in there and stayed 10 or 15 minutes. I think we had a cup of coffee and sat and talked to him a little bit, and that is the only occasion I have seen the man before I saw him in the basement after the shooting.

Mr. HUBERT. How long before the shooting did that----

Mr. WATSON. I'd say 3 to 4 years, in my estimate. I would say 2 to 4 years. I couldn't be sure. It has been a long time.

Mr. HUBERT. When you did see him, did you recognize him?

Mr. WATSON. No, sir; I believe I would have recognized him in his place and I did recognize him after the shooting only because I saw two or three people call his name. Then I did recognize him.

Mr. HUBERT. If you will step over here and have a look at this mockup here on the basement area, generally familiarize yourself with it, there is the jail office, and that is the jail elevator, the corridor entrance, the swinging door, the corridor outside the swinging door. There is the flat part of the ramp. There are the two inclines back there. This is the parking area and that is the ramp coming from the parking area to the ramp between Main and Commerce. I have also here a chart which I have marked for purposes of identification, "Dallas, Tex., March 26, 1964. Exhibit 5105, deposition of J. C. Watson." And I have put below it my name and I will ask you to sign your name so that the record may show that we are talking about the same document. Now, looking at the mockup first, I would like you to show me on the mockup where you were standing at the time of the shooting, and if you had changed positions from the time you first went in there indicate that so that we can mark the several positions that you might have been in.

Mr. WATSON. I took a position--you want it here, or over here?

Mr. HUBERT. I want you to fix it.

Mr. WATSON. Generally right here [indicating]. And I had more or less, until we--just previous to the time they brought Oswald down, I did take a point near this corner, out somewhere, a point about like this [indicating].

Mr. HUBERT. Now, I am marking--is this right? Right here?

Mr. WATSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. I am marking a circle.

Mr. WATSON. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. At the spot which you have indicated on the mockup?

Mr. WATSON. That is the general place.

Mr. HUBERT. The general place.

Mr. WATSON. More or less milling around from there over to here, 5 or 6 feet until right at the----

Mr. HUBERT. The position I have marked with the circle is the position you were in at the time of the shooting, is that right?

Mr. WATSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. I have written on the map, "Position of J. C. Watson at time of shooting," and I have encircled it and connected it with a line into the circle which you have indicated was the position that you were standing in at the moment of the shooting. As I understand your testimony, you were more or less moving up and down along that position?

Mr. WATSON. Well, that would have been previous, until the time they were bringing him down. Right at the moment, the only difference would be we were probably back--I would probably have been back, I would say, level with the curb line, but at the moment they come out the photographers--and there were some photographers right in this corner, and one more officer, I think, to my left, and more or less--we moved forward just probably a couple of feet, or three. We didn't move over 2 or 3 feet.

Mr. HUBERT. You want to make this comment about the position I have marked as your position at the time of the shooting, you say that it is correct, that prior to the shooting you were perhaps 2 or 3 feet--

Mr. WATSON. Two feet.

Mr. HUBERT. Two feet back in the direction of Main Street?

Mr. WATSON. Yes; only because as the photographers come forward, we tend to come forward and kind of----

Mr. HUBERT. So, I am going to mark another circle then about 2 feet. This is not going to be accurate, but the purpose of the circle is to show your position prior to the shooting.

Mr. WATSON. They bring anyone down, people all naturally seem to move forward a little, just close in a little.

Mr. HUBERT. I have written on the map and encircled the following language. "Position of J. C. Watson prior to the shooting." I'll connect that with a circle, does that conform with your understanding of the situation?

Mr. WATSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, what caused you to move forward in that way?

Mr. WATSON. Just because the photographers and everyone seemed to just move forward a little, just to keep in line.

Mr. HUBERT. As Oswald was coming out?

Mr. WATSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. So, that accounts for the fact that your position at the moment of shooting was a little further towards Oswald than it would have been had you not moved at all, and that difference is about 2 feet?

Mr. WATSON. Well, I would say not necessarily toward him, just toward the direction he was going.

Mr. HUBERT. He was going; yes. All right, sir. Do you remember who was on your left? What officer was on your left?

Mr. WATSON. I believe Blackie Harrison was on my left, I believe.

Mr. HUBERT. Was any officer on your right?

Mr. WATSON. Not between me and the corner. I don't know whether there was one past the corner of the building between there and the office or not.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you think there was only the two of you, you and Blackie Harrison?

Mr. WATSON. Well, there had been one or two others over there.

Mr. HUBERT. Right. I don't--only you and Harrison keeping back the press from the Main Street ramp area?

Mr. WATSON. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Only you two?

Mr. WATSON. Of course, the press was actually in the basement area, and on the fence there on the guard rail and then at the time they had already--so many of them had gotten over the rail, and were just inside on the ramp area.

Mr. HUBERT. I'm going to mark an area just by making a rough oblong figure in which I am writing in the middle "Area A," and I ask you if it is that area that you are talking about that you were standing in front of?

Mr. WATSON. Just practically; yes. I was in front of, and to the right of it.

Mr. HUBERT. Yes; and how many people do you suppose there were in that area?

Mr. WATSON. In that "Area A"?

Mr. HUBERT. Back of you and Harrison?

Mr. WATSON. Not many.

Mr. HUBERT. Not any at all?

Mr. WATSON. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. I thought you said they surged forward?

Mr. WATSON. They are over from this corner, over to about--some point right out here [indicating], and they come over the fence and right in this area right here [indicating]. That----

Mr. HUBERT. Now, I am marking a line with the numbers "1," to "2," encircled, is that the line that you are talking about that depress----

Mr. WATSON. From that point "1" over to just past this corner was the only area that I know of any photographers being in. That is where they were supposed to be. They were all lined on the rail, but at the moment this starts, they crawl through and come forward a little. That is what makes me come forward a little.

Mr. HUBERT. I thought you came forward because of pressure from people behind?

Mr. WATSON. Nobody behind me.

Mr. HUBERT. Nobody at all in here [indicating].

Mr. WATSON. I think one or two, but no officers behind me.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you see Ruby come forward?

Mr. WATSON. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. When did you first see Ruby?

Mr. WATSON. I saw him underneath four or five detectives immediately at my feet in front of me after the shooting. Did not see--couldn't have told whether it was white or colored until they had him in the jail office. Four or five detectives completely smothering him. I was standing there watching the crowd, looked down once or twice. Couldn't tell who it was.

Mr. HUBERT. When did you first become aware that there was a shooting?

Mr. WATSON. What do you mean? What are you--How are you going to pinpoint it----

Mr. HUBERT. When you heard the shot?

Mr. WATSON. When I heard the shot; yes.

Mr. HUBERT. You didn't see anybody lunge forward?

Mr. WATSON. I glanced at Captain Fritz. I looked at Captain Fritz, just looked at the expression on his face, and I looked at Oswald. Second time I had seen him, just the expression. I noticed the officers behind him back toward the jail office, just a--momentarily, and I heard the shot up there.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, your head was turned in the direction of the jail office and Ruby apparently came up from your left?

Mr. WATSON. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. From the direction on your left?

Mr. WATSON. But, your head was turned away from the area?

Mr. WATSON. Glaring spotlight. We looked--straight ahead, to the right, wouldn't look at the bright lights.

Mr. HUBERT. So, you don't know where he came from?

Mr. WATSON. No, sir; I assume where he come from but I don't know where he come from. I know where he had to come from.

Mr. HUBERT. Let's go back to the statement that you made about "Area A," there, which would be area in the basement ramp, but before the incline begins?

Mr. WATSON. Yes; just a flat place there. Starts back somewhere, like you say, back here [indicating].

Mr. HUBERT. You're quite sure there was nobody behind you and Harrison?

Mr. WATSON. No, sir; I wouldn't have left anyone behind us. I mean, we were in a position----

Mr. HUBERT. But I am talking about news media?

Mr. WATSON. That is what I mean, I am facing this way and all the news media was on my left.

Mr. HUBERT. You had your back to the Main Street and----

Mr. WATSON. My back to that----

Mr. HUBERT. And nobody behind you at all?

Mr. WATSON. Nobody behind me except officers at the top of the ramp, that I know of.

Mr. HUBERT. And Blackie Harrison was to your left? How much space between you and Harrison?

Mr. WATSON. Well, sir; he and I were the only two in the ramp opening, in that distance from the corner to here [indicating]. I believe we were the only two and I believe----

Mr. HUBERT. Nobody behind you?

Mr. WATSON. And I believe an officer or two in here [indicating]. I don't remember moving around so much. I mean we didn't take stationary positions designated. Now, we just took positions as we saw fit before they came out.

Mr. HUBERT. Let me mark another circle here, sir. What I am marking is the approximate position of Harrison.

Mr. WATSON. I'd say 3- or 4-foot over.

Mr. HUBERT. Right there [indicating]?

Mr. WATSON. That's right. I would say he would have been a little closer than that.

Mr. HUBERT. I am writing on the map, "Position of Blackie Harrison at time of shooting," and circling that and connecting it with a small circle showing the approximate position of Blackie Harrison. That is your best estimate of where he was?

Mr. WATSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. He was also facing in the direction of the Commerce Street--with his back toward Main Street?

Mr. WATSON. I would think so. I mean he could have turned a little, you know. I talked to him a couple of times. He was standing parallel just like I am.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever glance towards Main Street during the time you were there?

Mr. WATSON. I glanced toward--I'm sure, a couple of times. I remember the car going out.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know who was driving the car?

Mr. WATSON. No, sir; I don't know that.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know Lieutenant Rio Pierce?

Mr. WATSON. I believe Lieutenant Pierce was either in it or driving it, yes. I saw him with the car.

Mr. HUBERT. Did they have difficulty getting through the people?

Mr. WATSON. Yes. At what point up there?

Mr. HUBERT. At the point that you were standing?

Mr. WATSON. I would think that there would probably have been two or three reporters here [indicating], and I am sure there were at this point. There was someone that was kind of in the way, and they had to move them, I think. And possibly right on that edge, I think all of the press were either asked or knew to get back at about that time. I think they all got over the rail about that time.

Mr. HUBERT. How long had you been standing in this position before the shooting?

Mr. WATSON. We had been in there somewhere 20 or 25 minutes. I'd say it must have been 35, 30 or 35 minutes.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, do you think that if a man had been coming down the Main Street ramp just 30 seconds to a minute before the shooting you would have heard his footsteps?

Mr. WATSON. I don't think so.

Mr. HUBERT. Why not?

Mr. WATSON. Lots of noise going on there. Another thing, I am kind of hard of hearing in my left ear. That is the reason, I think that I can't hear some of the things that were said--I got it in the Navy.

Mr. HUBERT. In any case, you didn't see anybody at all?

Mr. WATSON. No; I just remember glancing----

Mr. HUBERT. Let me finish my question. Anybody coming down the Main Street ramp?

Mr. WATSON. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Nor did you hear them?

Mr. WATSON. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Would you like to have a seat? Do you have anything else you would like to add?

Mr. WATSON. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you consider that everything that you know about this matter is contained in the several reports and letters that have been identified this morning by you?

Mr. WATSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. And in your deposition?

Mr. WATSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Nothing else you know about?

Mr. WATSON. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Nothing has been omitted, and there are no corrections you want to make?

Mr. WATSON. Nothing but the FBI where it says "several". There is "one".

Mr. HUBERT. We have already accepted those. That has been noted, of course.

Mr. WATSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Have you been interviewed by any member of the Commission's staff prior to this deposition this morning?

Mr. WATSON. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. That includes me, too.

Mr. WATSON. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Thank you so much, sir.

TESTIMONY OF G. E. WORLEY

The testimony of G. E. Worley was taken at 9:30 p.m., on March 26, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Burt W. Griffin, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me explain to you the procedure and then I will give you an opportunity to ask questions and so forth. I want to introduce myself. I am Burt Griffin, and I am a member of the advisory staff of the general counsel's office of the President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy.

Mr. WORLEY. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, this Commission was set up under the Executive Order 11130, which is an order issued by President Johnson on November 29, 1963, and also pursuant to a joint resolution of Congress, No. 137.

Pursuant to this resolution and Executive order, the Commission has promulgated a set of rules, and in accordance with those rules I have been authorized to take your sworn deposition, Mr. Worley.

I want to explain a little bit to you about the general nature of what we are doing here. Now, I think as you probably understand, the Commission has been set up for the purpose of ascertaining and evaluating and reporting back to President Johnson upon the facts and all the facts that might relate to the assassination of President Kennedy, and the subsequent murder of Lee Harvey Oswald.

We are particularly interested in taking your deposition today, Mr. Worley, because we want to talk to you about what you know in connection with the events that may have led up to and followed the death of Lee Harvey Oswald.

However, that does not preclude any information that you may have concerning any other people. I mean concerning the death of President Kennedy.

I want to explain this to you, also, that you have been asked to appear here today by virtue of a general request which is made by our general counsel, Mr. J. Lee Rankin, and this request was made in the form of a letter to Chief Curry.

Now, actually, under the rules adopted by the Commission, you are entitled to have a 3-day written notice prior to having your deposition taken. However, the rules also provide that you can waive this notice, and I want to ask now whether you would like us to issue the notice or whether it is acceptable to you to waive the notice?

Mr. WORLEY. It is.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I also want to explain to you that you are entitled to have counsel before this Commission at this deposition, and I see that you don't appear here with counsel this evening, and I presume it is because you don't desire one. But feel free to tell us, because there are many people that have appeared here with counsel, and it is perfectly acceptable to us.

Mr. WORLEY. I don't think I need one.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, let me ask you if you have any particular questions that you want to ask me?

Mr. WORLEY. No; I would have to say, after reading that report now, that report from the FBI is not very good.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me tell you this. Then I would like to administer the oath to you so that I can start to take your testimony. I will first hand you the report. I will mark it for identification and hand you the report and ask you to make any corrections. Actually, that is going to be about the first thing. I want to get your name and so forth. Would you raise your right hand?

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. WORLEY. I do.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right, sir, would you state for the court reporter what your full name is?

Mr. WORLEY. Gano E. Worley.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When were you born, Mr. Worley?

Mr. WORLEY. February the 3d, 1926.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where do you live right now?

Mr. WORLEY. 835 N. Ewing, Apt. D.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that in Dallas?

Mr. WORLEY. In Dallas, Tex.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you employed?

Mr. WORLEY. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What is your occupation?

Mr. WORLEY. I work for Lone Star Gas Co.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What do you do for them?

Mr. WORLEY. I am building operator.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long have you worked for Lone Star Gas Co.?

Mr. WORLEY. Eleven years.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you also have some connection with the Dallas Police Department?

Mr. WORLEY. Dallas Police Reserve.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long have you been in the police reserve?

Mr. WORLEY. Four years.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, I am going to mark for identification three documents which I have in front of me. I am going to mark for identification Exhibit No. 5047, and I have also written on there, "Dallas, Tex., Mr. Worley, 3-26-64." This document which I have marked purports to be a report of an interview that you had with FBI Agents Leo L. Robertson and Paul S. Scott on December 3, 1963. Let me ask you if you have had an opportunity to read this over before coming in here?

Mr. WORLEY. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, are there any additions or corrections or changes that you think ought to be made in this?

Mr. WORLEY. Yes; I do. If you will read this one right here [pointing].

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, you are referring to a letter which I also have in my hand?

Mr. WORLEY. Right. To Chief Curry from me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Any particular part, if you will tell me what you have in mind?

Incidentally, I have marked this exhibit which you are referring to, a letter to Chief Curry, dated November 26, 1963, purporting to be prepared by you.

Actually, this is a Xerox copy of what would appear to be another copy of an actual letter which purports to bear your signature?

Mr. WORLEY. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I have marked this, "Dallas, Tex., Mr. Worley, 3-26-64, Exhibit 5048." Now, is there some correction or addition or change that you would make in what has been marked Exhibit 5047, the FBI interview?

Mr. WORLEY. Well, right here, if you will see it says----

Mr. GRIFFIN. You want to read it so we will get it in the record?

Mr. WORLEY. All right. "Worley reported to Central Police Station at 9 a.m. on November the 24th, 1963, and he was assigned by the regular police sergeant." That is wrong.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right, who assigned you?

Mr. WORLEY. Reserve police sergeant.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What was his name?

Mr. WORLEY. Croy. That has "Regular Police Sergeant Troy".

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you want to take my pen and correct it? Write in what you think is necessary to correct it.

Mr. WORLEY. [Makes correction.] I tell you, this is more of an accurate description of what I did.

Mr. GRIFFIN. This Exhibit 5048?

Mr. WORLEY. Right. Not this one, because----

Mr. GRIFFIN. The letter is more accurate than the FBI report?

Mr. WORLEY. Yes; that tells exactly from the time I arrived at the police station to the time I left, and every move that I made in between.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, we are talking about Exhibit 5048, which is your letter of November 26, 1963, to Chief Curry. Are there any corrections or changes that you would make, or additions that you would make in that statement, that you can think of right now?

Mr. WORLEY. Yes; it states that I met Jack Ruby sometime when working with squad 105, 5 or 6 months ago. That was over a year ago instead of 5 or 6 months.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Can you tell us how it is that you now think it was over a year ago? What is the basis for that change?

Mr. WORLEY. Well, the officer that I worked with on that beat, I talked to after that, and he hadn't worked that squad in over a year, and it didn't seem like as long to me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who is that officer?

Mr. WORLEY. Regular Officer J. R. Sales.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you check? Is there any police record made of when you work a particular beat?

Mr. WORLEY. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you checked those records to be--to determine when it would have been that you last worked with that officer?

Mr. WORLEY. No; I haven't.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ask him whether he had checked the records to determine that?

Mr. WORLEY. No; but the reason that I imagine he stated that is because he is working another squad now and he knew that it had been approximately over a year.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, I want you to feel free to make any changes that you want in here, but I might suggest, and please understand that I want you to if you don't agree with it, I don't want you to do it any other way, but it seems to me from what you have said that an accurate statement would include something to the effect that "I am not sure now of when it was, because I talked with the officer and he said such and such, but I have not checked my records, and I don't know if he has."

Now, I would suggest that you make some change like that, if you are agreeable.

Mr. WORLEY. Well, that is agreeable with me, because I didn't check the records to see exactly when the last time I worked on that district.

But I did talk to the regular officer and he said that he hadn't worked that district in over a year, so one way or the other.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Why don't you take the time on that particular exhibit and write down something that would reflect accurately what happened, on there. You want me to write it for you?

Mr. WORLEY. On that last sheet, the exhibit, the next one?

Mr. GRIFFIN. On Worley Exhibit No. 5049.

Mr. WORLEY. This one corrects that, and it says it on there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. It is right down at the bottom. Now, I don't see it on here.

Mr. WORLEY. [Reading.] I would have swore. I read that over a little while ago. I guess I didn't. I'm sorry, it is not in this one. I knew I seen it in one of them. It is in the police report.

Mr. GRIFFIN. It is in the FBI report. Well, these are true and accurate copies, are they not?

Mr. WORLEY. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I have the letters that you gave?

Mr. WORLEY. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now, I am referring to Exhibits 5048 and 5049. Now, is Exhibit 5047 the interview report, as it is corrected with respect to Reserve Officer Croy, is that an accurate report of the interview which you had with those people?

Mr. WORLEY. Yes; but there was some of the things that they had in here are not what I gave them.

Mr. GRIFFIN. They aren't? All right. What do they have written down there that you didn't tell them?

Mr. WORLEY. Well, just like it was signed. It says Regular Police Sergeant Troy, and it should have been Reserve Police Sergeant Croy.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You have made and incorporated a correction on there, haven't you?

Mr. WORLEY. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. So, insofar as that portion now reads, that is the way the interview actually went?

Mr. WORLEY. Well, then again it says here [pointing] "some stop right there * * * to the information desk in the basement to send the other Reserve officers to the basement parking area"--I don't see that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you say?