Chapter IX: Part 9

You have also stated to me that this copy was available to the Commission.

I am therefore marking it as follows:

"Dallas, Tex., March 23, 1964, Exhibit 5053, Deposition of M. W. Stevenson." I am signing it with my name, Leon D. Hubert, Jr.

I am going to ask you to sign your name under mine, and I am initialling myself, each one of the pages, and I would appreciate it, if you would also initial each one of the pages.

I am placing my initials on each one of the pages in the lower right-hand corner of each page.

Mr. STEVENSON. (Initials each page.)

Mr. HUBERT. Mr. Stevenson, I have now signed the first page under my signature, that being the unnumbered page. I ask you if you have checked the sequence of pages thereafter and find that they run in perfect sequence 1 through 34, page 34, being the last page?

Mr. STEVENSON. I have.

Mr. HUBERT. You have also placed your initials on each one of those pages in the lower right-hand corner below my signature, is that correct?

Mr. STEVENSON. I have.

Mr. HUBERT. The original of this was signed by you, sir?

Mr. STEVENSON. By Chief Batchelor, Chief Lumpkin, and myself.

Mr. HUBERT. And you delivered that to Chief Curry?

Mr. STEVENSON. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, have you been interviewed by any of the Commission staff prior to the taking of this deposition?

Mr. STEVENSON. No, sir; I have not.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, let me correct you. You were interviewed by me just before the beginning of this deposition?

Mr. STEVENSON. Yes; I was. I answered too quick then.

Mr. HUBERT. That interview took place this afternoon for about an hour and a half, I think, immediately preceding the time that we started to take the deposition?

Mr. STEVENSON. That's right.

Mr. HUBERT. You have not been interviewed by any other member of the Commission staff except that interview with me?

Mr. STEVENSON. No, sir; I have not.

Mr. HUBERT. Can you tell me whether you perceive any inconsistency between the deposition you have given and the interview that I conducted with you prior to the taking of the deposition?

Mr. STEVENSON. No, sir; I don't believe I can see any inconsistency.

I did do this at your request, or I say with your permission I looked over some of my notes before the taking of this, and the only thing that I think was any change made was in answer to Captain Talbert's question as to what the route of transfer would be.

I think when I discussed it with you prior to the taking of this deposition, I told you that we told him we thought it would go down Elm. When I reviewed my notes, it was Main Street that we had told him.

Mr. HUBERT. Now do you know of any other material information that was covered in the interview that preceded this deposition which has not been developed during the deposition?

Mr. STEVENSON. No, sir; not that I recall.

Mr. HUBERT. I think that is all unless you have anything else.

Mr. STEVENSON. I don't recall a thing else, Mr. Hubert.

Mr. HUBERT. Thank you very much.

TESTIMONY OF CAPT. CECIL E. TALBERT

The testimony of Capt. Cecil E. Talbert was taken at 7:30 p.m., on March 24, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr., assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. HUBERT. This is the deposition of Capt. Cecil T. Talbert, patrol division, Dallas Police Department.

My name is Leon D. Hubert, Jr.; I am a member of the advisory staff of the general counsel of the President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy. Under the provisions of Executive Order 11130, dated November 29, 1963, joint resolution of Congress 137, and the rules of procedure adopted by the Commission in conformance with the Executive order and the joint resolutions, I have been authorized to take a sworn deposition from you, Captain Talbert. I will state to you now that the general nature of the Commission's inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate, and report upon the facts relating to the assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of Lee Harvey Oswald.

In particular as to you, Captain Talbert, the nature of the inquiry tonight is to to determine the facts you know about the death of Oswald and any other pertinent facts you may know about the general inquiry of the Commission. Now, Captain Talbert, you have appeared here tonight by virtue of a general request made by the general counsel of the staff of the President's Commission, Mr. J. Lee Rankin. Under the rules adopted by the Commission, you are entitled to a 3-day written notice prior to the taking of this deposition, but those rules also provide that a witness may waive the 3-day notice in writing. Are you willing to waive that notice?

Captain TALBERT. I'd like to waive it, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, will you stand and be sworn?

Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Captain TALBERT. I do.

Mr. HUBERT. Will you please state your name?

Captain TALBERT. Cecil Earl Talbert.

Mr. HUBERT. Your age?

Captain TALBERT. I am 44.

Mr. HUBERT. Your residence?

Captain TALBERT. 1211 Toltec, Dallas.

Mr. HUBERT. What is your present occupation, sir?

Captain TALBERT. Police department. Captain of patrol division.

Mr. HUBERT. How long have you been with the police department?

Captain TALBERT. Seventeen years.

Mr. HUBERT. How long have you held the rank of captain?

Captain TALBERT. You will have to forgive me just a minute.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, just approximately is all right.

Captain TALBERT. January 26, 1960.

Mr. HUBERT. What are your duties and responsibilities on the Dallas Police Force?

Captain TALBERT. I have a patrol platoon. Three captains assigned to the patrol division. Each has a platoon. We rotate around the clock and while on duty would have the patrol function.

Mr. HUBERT. That is the patrol function throughout the city.

Captain TALBERT. Throughout the city; yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Who is your immediate superior?

Captain TALBERT. Chief Fisher; N. T. Fisher.

Mr. HUBERT. And he is head of the patrol division in general?

Captain TALBERT. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Three captains under him?

Captain TALBERT. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Who are the other captains?

Captain TALBERT. J. M. Souter relieves me, and Capt. William Frazier, who relieves Souter.

Mr. HUBERT. Were you in that same position with the same duties and responsibilities on the 24th of November 1963?

Captain TALBERT. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Were you on duty on the 23d of November 1963?

Captain TALBERT. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. What hours did you serve then?

Captain TALBERT. Seven to three.

Mr. HUBERT. 7 a.m. to 3 p.m.?

Captain TALBERT. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you go off duty at 3 p.m. on the 23d?

Captain TALBERT. Close to that, I mean close to that time; yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. At the time you went off duty about 3 p.m. on the 23d of November, had you been informed of any plans for a transfer of Oswald to the county jail?

Captain TALBERT. Not by police supervisors. I had heard the information the chief had given the news media who had insisted on setting up their equipment in our jail office, or adjacent to the jail office, and he insisted that they not set it up there, and that they would be in the general public way, and only that they could report after 10 o'clock on the next day.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, you didn't hear that from the chief himself?

Captain TALBERT. Not from the chief. Only--that is hearsay.

Mr. HUBERT. You obtained from the radio or television or newspapers?

Captain TALBERT. Possibly radio and newspapers, yes, sir. You might know we were attentive to all news media at the time.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, what time, then, did you go on duty on the 24th?

Captain TALBERT. The morning of the 24th I reported when--I gave my time of duty as 7 to 3. Actually, we report about an hour early so that we can prepare the platoon, or any revision in the platoon that we have to make. So, at approximately 6 o'clock, I reported to our office and relieved Captain Frazier.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, at the time that you relieved Captain Frazier, did he convey any information to you?

Captain TALBERT. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Tell us what he said?

Captain TALBERT. Said he had a communication with Sheriff Decker and Mr. Newsom, with the FBI, and both were anxious to transfer Oswald at the time. Transfer him immediately to the county jail, and that he had been unable to contact the chief due to a phone malfunction. That he couldn't call him.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he tell you what time he had received that information?

Captain TALBERT. He did; but I don't recall what time, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he tell you of any security plans that had been made to transfer Oswald?

Captain TALBERT. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he tell you of any security plans that should be made, or had been ordered?

Captain TALBERT. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he then go off duty? I am talking about Captain Frazier now.

Captain TALBERT. Yes, sir; I relieved him and he went off duty.

Mr. HUBERT. What did you do then with reference to the transfer?

Captain TALBERT. Continued his efforts to contact the chief through--going through the telephone exchange. I wanted to contact him by telephone. He had contacted Captain Fritz with the information from both Mr. Newsom and the sheriff, and Captain Fritz said he couldn't transfer him until the chief authorized it.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you talk to Fritz yourself?

Captain TALBERT. No, sir; that was conveyed to me by Captain Frazier before he left.

Mr. HUBERT. I see.

Captain TALBERT. And I got the telephone company to put a buzzer on the chief's line, and there is no response, and they have something that is louder than a buzzer. I can't recall the term they use, but you have to get permission from the chief operator to utilize that. I had that put on the chief's line, and still no response. Obviously the line was defective, so, I had a squad sent to the chief's home with the request that he call me.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he call you?

Captain TALBERT. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. From his home?

Captain TALBERT. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Was his phone out of order?

Captain TALBERT. I don't know, sir, but by all appearances, it was out of order. I think that latter item I was speaking of was around the entire neighborhood, almost. It is quite loud, even though a phone may be off the hook.

Mr. HUBERT. What did you say to the chief?

Captain TALBERT. I repeated the conversation that Frazier had told me that the sheriff had told him, and also Mr. Newsom had told him about two calls received by the FBI office during the night. Both by men speaking in a calm voice and both conveyed the same message that before Oswald reached the county jail "A hundred of us will see that he is dead." And the request by Sheriff Decker, and Mr. Newsom, that he be transferred immediately.

Mr. HUBERT. It was your understanding that Newsom had received a message twice?

Captain TALBERT. His office. Not Mr. Newsom personally. His office.

Mr. HUBERT. I see. Do you know whether any such message had also been received by the sheriff's office independently?

Captain TALBERT. No, sir; I don't.

Mr. HUBERT. What time did you convey that information?

Captain TALBERT. It was approximately 6:30, my conversation with Chief Curry.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he give you any instructions?

Captain TALBERT. He said if I would call the sheriff and Mr. Newsom, tell them that he would be in his office between 8 and 9, and he would contact them.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you do that?

Captain TALBERT. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. All right. After that, what did you occupy yourself with?

Captain TALBERT. The usual duty of getting my platoon on duty and balancing the detail.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you do anything looking toward the ultimate transfer of Oswald?

Captain TALBERT. Not at that time; no, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. When did you begin to do anything with reference to the transfer?

Captain TALBERT. Approximately 9 a.m. Traffic was building up rather heavy on the downtown streets. Primarily on Commerce, people going by the intersection of Commerce and Houston and the--viewing the Book Depository Building, and we had a few people gathering on Commerce Street side of the city hall.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever see them gathering on the Main Street side?

Captain TALBERT. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know why?

Captain TALBERT. Evidently the people who were gathering realized that our exit side was Commerce and our entrance side was Main.

Mr. HUBERT. Is that a fact?

Captain TALBERT. That is a fact.

Mr. HUBERT. That is to say internally, your traffic goes from Main to Commerce, and goes no other way?

Captain TALBERT. That's right.

Mr. HUBERT. That is a one-way ramp?

Captain TALBERT. Yes, sir; all of our vehicles enter on Main Street and exit on Commerce Street.

Mr. HUBERT. Of course, there is no physical reason why it couldn't be the opposite?

Captain TALBERT. Yes, sir; there is. Commerce is one way, and makes it more difficult to--Oh, I'm sorry. There is no physical reason.

Mr. HUBERT. No. That's all right. You have explained it. You had misunderstood what I meant when I said, "physical."

Captain TALBERT. Sure.

Mr. HUBERT. Actually, it is an internal rule, that is, a normal rule because of the fact that Commerce is a one-way street.

Captain TALBERT. The accessibility to the street.

Mr. HUBERT. Main is a two-way street?

Captain TALBERT. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. What time did Chief Curry come in?

Captain TALBERT. I don't know, sir. I didn't see him all day.

Mr. HUBERT. You didn't see him all day on the 24th?

Captain TALBERT. No, sir. I mean I don't recall having seen him. I didn't converse with him. If I saw him I didn't converse with him.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you take any action about looking to the movement or transfer and the security thereof, of Oswald?

Captain TALBERT. That is a very broad statement and can we narrow it down into my actions taken of any probable disturbance that we might have around the city hall?

Mr. HUBERT. Just tell us what you did.

Captain TALBERT. All right, sir. At 9, or about, Lieutenant Pierce, that is Sam Pierce.

Mr. HUBERT. That is Rio Pierce?

Captain TALBERT. Sam.

Mr. HUBERT. Sam Pierce?

Captain TALBERT. Rio Sam Pierce. R. S. Pierce. [spelling] R-i-o, just like the river. Rio Sam Pierce is my central area lieutenant, and I talked the situation over with him about the traffic problem, and the people that were giving the appearance of going to start gathering on the Commerce Street side, and what we should do about the possible security around the city hall. It would have to alleviate having to call the squads in over the dispatcher.

At the time, we were working on a Sunday detail, which is one of our smallest. Sunday is a less active day, and we have fewer people working on Sunday, that is, than we do any other. That is the day we try to get most of our--not "most," I'm sorry, that is a poor term. We cut our detail down on Sunday due to the fact that police activity is light. So, I talked it over with him about what we should do about the method of security of the area, and finally decided that if--for him to pull three squads from each of the three substations, and four squads out of the central station, and to pick two-men squads where possible so that we could build up the total number of men that we had as quick as possible.

This second platoon, the day platoon, works primarily one-man squads, and our two-man squads are trainee squads. The trainees work with an older officer and create a two-man squad there. Could you leave this off just a moment? That is something----

Mr. HUBERT. All right; off the record.

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. HUBERT. All right; then, you decided to set up some system of security for the police department building?

Captain TALBERT. I further told Lieutenant Pierce to have the basement cleared of all personnel. Have them searched. Thorough search, and secure it, letting only the authorized news media and police officers into the basement.

Mr. HUBERT. What----

Captain TALBERT. The basement area that----

Mr. HUBERT. What system of authorizing newsmen was in use?

Captain TALBERT. Using their press identification.

Mr. HUBERT. Had that been issued specially?

Captain TALBERT. That is the general order, 81, I believe that is the number of it. I don't know whether you want to include that in here or not. I believe general order 81, is that we would utilize--this is a long-standing--that we will utilize the normal press identification to permit news media into scenes of incident areas. The amateurs, bystanders, were kept out because they don't have those identification----

Mr. HUBERT. Is that an identification commonly known to police personnel?

Captain TALBERT. They scrutinize it. No, sir; each could utilize these different types, but you have to scrutinize their identification.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you say that you permit these persons to enter, but civilians without news identification could not enter?

Captain TALBERT. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. That was in effect that day?

Captain TALBERT. I utilized it.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, I mean, the order was in effect?

Captain TALBERT. It had not been revoked.

Mr. HUBERT. So, you utilized it?

Captain TALBERT. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Therefore, it was determined that when you were clearing out the basement, you would clear out all persons who were not police officers or news media properly identified?

Captain TALBERT. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, can you tell me why you did that as to the basement?

Captain TALBERT. The basement--I am using a very loose term in "basement," I meant, and did convey to Lieutenant Pierce, "the area," in which Oswald would be--if he was transferred, and I used that term, "if he was transferred," I didn't know that he would be. Although, our basement was becoming cluttered with newsmen at that time.

Mr. HUBERT. Had you been told by anyone that Oswald would be removed from the upper story of the building by use of the jail elevators to the jail office, and from the jail office through the jail corridor into the basement ramps.

Captain TALBERT. At that time; no, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. But----

Captain TALBERT. But, of my own knowledge that is the only way he could be removed to a car unless he went through another floor and out on the street. That is the way you go in the normal police building area.

Mr. HUBERT. And do you mean that the normal method for handling would be one where he would be brought to the elevator to the jail office, and into the basement?

Captain TALBERT. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, would you state just what you did by way of clearing the basement area?

Captain TALBERT. Lieutenant Pierce gave the assignment to Sergeant Dean, and in turn to Sergeant Putnam to carry out, and in various stages of the searching of the basement I think he checked it himself, at approximately 10 o'clock, and I gave, by the way, the initial instructions to bring those squads in. I told them to disperse their cars, park them on the street, but disperse them. Not have them grouped up, and to report to my office by at least 9:30, and he did have that accomplished, and he gave the instructions to clear the area and search it to Sergeant Dean, who got Sergeant Putnam to assist him in it. About 10 o'clock, I went down to check and see how he had progressed at that time. They had checked the news media, they were set up in the jail office. The jail office proper. They had cameramen, cameras, reporters on top of the booking desk, on top of everything available. The news media was taking over the jail office rather heavily, and insisted the chief had given them permission to do so. That was about 10. I went into the basement area and Sergeant Putnam gave me a lengthy rundown, step by step, on what he had done, or had done--see what I mean about my English?--and had accomplished in clearing that area, and I personally checked all the doors to the several rooms that led from the parking area to see that they were locked.

Mr. HUBERT. Can you specify for the record what doors you did check?

Captain TALBERT. Starting in around on the side of the ramp, janitor's room. Could you hold it a minute and let me see if I can identify it?

Mr. HUBERT. All right.

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. HUBERT. All right. Now, I think we'll get on the record.

Captain TALBERT. Shall we just say "checked the painters' room"?

Mr. HUBERT. No; I want to get more particular points than that. Now, since you are about to describe your activities with reference to a definite area, I want to show you a map or chart of the basement and jail office area, and in order that we may properly use it in connection with your testimony, it is necessary for me to identify it. Therefore, I am marking it, "Dallas, Texas, March the 24th, 1964. Exhibit 5070, deposition of Capt. C. E. Talbert." And I am signing my name to it, and for the purposes of identification, I'll ask you to sign your name just below mine. Now, you say that you, yourself made a personal check of what is shown on this Exhibit 5070, as the parking area?

Captain TALBERT. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Wait. Where did you begin? Right in here?

Captain TALBERT. Right about here, to here [indicating].

Mr. HUBERT. Now, I am marking with a numeral, "1" in a circle, a point that you have indicated to me as the starting point of your inspection tour, and exactly just what did you do there?

Captain TALBERT. Well, that's----

Mr. HUBERT. And then I am going to ask you to just simply draw a line as to the general portion that you want, and whenever you stopped, we will mark the stop with No. "2, 3 and so forth", and just use this map and mark it in that way, keeping in mind that you must speak in such a way that a person who reads this later on may be able to understand the movements. Now, you are starting at a point that is marked No. "1" in a circle?

Captain TALBERT. I checked the door No. "1", which is the painters' room to see that it was properly locked. I proceeded to the doctor's room, and I checked it.

Mr. HUBERT. And you are marking that----

Captain TALBERT. That is "2."

Mr. HUBERT. "2" in a circle?

Captain TALBERT. I asked what has been done about the doctor's services. Sergeant Putnam told me he had moved that doctor out of that room and into the police locker room.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you check those doors?

Captain TALBERT. Checked the door to see that it was locked, and it was; yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. It was locked from the outside? Could somebody in there have come in?

Captain TALBERT. There should have been no one in there, because there is no entrance to it.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you check in the doctor's room?

Captain TALBERT. No, sir; I had no key to get in. The doctor and the porter would have the key, but I didn't have. I went to this [indicating]. This is the stairway, and this--there is another--there is another stairway coming in here [indicating].

Mr. HUBERT. From point "2"?

Captain TALBERT. Actually, this is--can you stop?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

(Discussion off the record.)

Captain TALBERT. I went to point "3" and tried the other door which was locked externally. Went to point "4"----

Mr. HUBERT. Before you leave point "3," did you know whether that door was locked from the other side?

Captain TALBERT. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. So, that a person in the stairwell----

Captain TALBERT. That is not the stairwell, sir, that is the second door of the first aid station.

Mr. HUBERT. Oh, the second door of the first aid station?

Captain TALBERT. "3" it is the second door of the first aid station. "4" to the stairwell leading downstairs to a subbasement, engineroom, and leading from the first floor down to the basement area is a fire escape type--that door was secured from the outside.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know if anybody on the inside of that door could have come from the stairwell into the basement?

Captain TALBERT. Yes, sir; it has--that particular door, I have since learned--I didn't know it at that time, but I have since learned that that particular door has a fire escape type latch. That bar-type latch, and I did check and find that the first floor--not the basement, but the first floor of the city hall had its interior door, both on the Commerce Street, Main Street, and the hallway locked. It is a procedure that they use over the weekend, and after 6 p.m., in the afternoon, those doors are locked, so, anyone not in the building at the time wouldn't have had access to this unless someone unlocked it for them.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you check those entrances at the first floor of the municipal building on the 24th?

Captain TALBERT. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. How did you do that?

Captain TALBERT. As I recall, just from the--this particular time after finishing this search, I went to the sidewalk area on Commerce, and into the entrance that is left open for payment of water bills and the interior door there was secure and locked.

Mr. HUBERT. So, then a person could not get into the first floor of the city hall through that door on Commerce Street?

Captain TALBERT. Yes, sir; and in further checking around the building I went through the police courts building and in checking the Main Street door and then, in turn, checked the Main Street entrance, and it was locked.

Mr. HUBERT. Main Street entrance to the municipal building?

Captain TALBERT. To the municipal building.

Mr. HUBERT. And it was locked?

Captain TALBERT. And it was locked; yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, did you check the several entrances on the alleyway which runs from Main to about halfway up the block and makes an L-turn and then runs to Pearl?

Captain TALBERT. I did not check that entrance, because the thing is locked any time after 6, and on the weekends. We can't enter that way. Matter of fact, we have orders not to enter that way at anytime, but sometimes we, in parking, we find it convenient to enter through that elevator and the service elevator from that entrance, and we always find it locked. We have to get a porter's attention by banging on the door to get it unlocked.

Mr. HUBERT. Since we are on that subject, how would you go through that service entrance on the alleyway into the first floor of the municipal building?

Captain TALBERT. The service entrance has some side doors leading off of it. I don't know whether they are broom closets, or go into rooms or what, but into the service elevator, both sides of the elevator has operable doors.

Mr. HUBERT. That is--so call it the Harwood side on the elevator, and the Pearl Street side.

Captain TALBERT. This is going to the Central Expressway over here [indicating].

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Captain TALBERT. And, so, the--the expressway side and the Harwood Street side has doors that do open. Both sides of that elevator have doors that would open, and the operator could open either one of them, and you can come in from the entrance and exit from this Harwood Street side. Enter from the expressway side and exit from the Harwood Street side.

Mr. HUBERT. If it were possible for a person to gain entrance through the service entrance into the first floor of the municipal building by use of the service elevator, that is to say, by walking through both of the doors of the elevator, he could then get into the stairwell of the fire escape on the first floor, could he not?

Captain TALBERT. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. And by walking down to the basement level at the point----

Captain TALBERT. Designated "4"?

Mr. HUBERT. Designated "4," he could get into the basement area in that way.

Captain TALBERT. Yes, sir; but we had an operator on the service elevator with instructions not to allow anyone to basement, and he was--allowed no one to come in.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know who that person was?

Captain TALBERT. I believe his name is Mitchell, sir, to the best of my memory, is his name.

Mr. HUBERT. Is he a member of the police department?

Captain TALBERT. No, sir; he is a porter, a colored porter who works within the city hall building, itself.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you talk to that man?

Captain TALBERT. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. What did you tell him?

Captain TALBERT. At the time, I told him to take his elevator up on the first floor. I put the parking attendant on that elevator, or instructed the parking attendant to get on that elevator and go up to the first floor, and for the parking attendant to maintain a vigil lookout on this elevator marked Nos. "1" and "2" here, which will be "5" and "6" in my route. I told him to see that no one came nearby those elevators, and told the operator of the service elevator to stay on it, and not bring anyone to the basement.

Mr. HUBERT. Who was the parking attendant?

Captain TALBERT. I'm going to have to utilize his nickname, and it is rather far-afield. I should know his name. His nickname is "King," it is one we have used for quite some time.

Mr. HUBERT. Is he a member of the police department?

Captain TALBERT. No, sir; he is a colored parking attendant who works for the municipal garage.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know whether he carried out your orders, Captain Talbert?

Captain TALBERT. To my knowledge, he did. I don't know that he did, but to my knowledge, he did.

Mr. HUBERT. You don't know to the contrary then?

Captain TALBERT. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, will you continue, then, your security search which we had left off, I think, at a point marked "4"?

Captain TALBERT. I went from point "4," the elevator--the stairwell, to the elevator. The first service elevator to the building on the--not service elevator, delete that, young lady--first elevator in the building marked "1", here, but will be marked "5" in this route. And that door was closed. Went to the next elevator which was immediately adjacent to the first one marked "6," that door was closed, indicating the elevator was not on that floor. These are automatic elevators and the doors would be open if it was. Then went to the service elevator, and had the foregoing conversation with the operator and the parking attendant. That is marked No. "7."

Mr. HUBERT. All right, just continue your search?

Captain TALBERT. From that area, or in that immediate area I had another discussion with Sergeant Putnam and asked him about the engineroom elevator, this elevator being on the extreme corner of the parking area on Commerce Street, next to the ramp. This elevator comes from the engineroom to the parking area only, and doesn't go to the first floor. Anyone entering through that elevator would have to be in the engineroom, which is a subbasement, to enter into this basement. That is the only place it goes. One floor.

Mr. HUBERT. And you have marked that how?

Captain TALBERT. Marked that "8." Sergeant Putnam had placed a reserve officer at that point to----

Mr. HUBERT. All right. Now, were any other reserve officers placed in the parking area, to your knowledge, or any other officers for that matter?

Captain TALBERT. May I mark on----

Mr. HUBERT. Surely.

Captain TALBERT. A reserve officer whose name I do not recall, was placed at a point marked "9," with the instructions not to permit anyone to enter the parking area from the elevators or stairwell. But a reserve officer was placed in the point marked "8." We--I think we have that in the deposition now. Reserve officers were, at that time, brought forward when I asked if the conduits had been searched, the top of the conduits, and--the air-conditioning conduits, if they had been searched. They brought the two reserve officers forward who had the filthiest uniforms. It was quite obvious that they had been crawling around on top of them. They had searched them, and I took their condition to state that their search had been thorough and the fact that Sergeants Putnam and Dean told me that they had covered each one, that the engines, engine compartments, the trucks as well as the vehicles parked in the basement had been searched for possible hiding places, and all of this was accomplished. After the search was accomplished, after officers were placed in the adjacent ramps on the Commerce Street side, on the Main Street side, and from the lobby of the police building marked "10," lobby of the police building into the area in front of the jail office leading into the ramp area--may I mark the places where the officers were now? The reserve officers--we are getting a--can I hold it for a minute?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

(Discussion off the record.)

Captain TALBERT. All right, now, I will go ahead and mark the area where we had each----

Mr. HUBERT. Yes; you marked "10," that you had an officer there.

Captain TALBERT. I had an officer and--a reserve officer was at "11." Two detectives were--Lowery and Beaty--Beaty and Lowery. "12" and "13" most of this period. Number "14" on the Main Street entrance to the police ramp was Vaughn, R. E. Vaughn, and number "15" and "16" were Patrolman Jez and Patrolman Patterson.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, did you ever order the reserve officer at the point "9" removed?

Captain TALBERT. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know that he had been?

Captain TALBERT. No, sir; at 11 o'clock, when the detail was made up to put traffic men on Elm Street, it was gathered in that area, and that man was in place at that time, at 11.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know that?

Captain TALBERT. If he was moved after 11 I don't know who moved him or where he went, but the reserve officer "9" was in place at that time.

Mr. HUBERT. You don't know what his name was?

Captain TALBERT. I believe Brock is going to be his name, but I am not sure.

Mr. HUBERT. I think it is Brock. Now, then, you mentioned something about drawing off persons to patrol the intersection of Elm Street?

Captain TALBERT. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Would you tell us something about that, please?

Captain TALBERT. We had kept as many officers out of the basement area as possible to keep from adding to the confusion of the search so we could make a systematic search, and I had retained all of the excess officers, and, as I recall, numbered about 13 regular police officers in my office and the reserve officers, and excesses were retained in an assembly room which would be behind the jail office, and after about 11--let's back up and make that about 10:45--in that vicinity, Chief Stevenson and Chief Lumpkin contacted me about the route of the proposed transfer of Lee Harvey Oswald, and they asked--correction--I asked if we were going to use marked cars or plain cars, or if we were going to utilize sirens to stop traffic at intersections?

Chief Stevenson said he didn't want any attention attracted to the transfer that wasn't already attracted to it, and asked if I had enough personnel to put in the intersection of Elm Street. First he said Main Street. The first route planned was Main, and it was changed to Elm before I could so disperse the personnel, so, actually, we utilized Elm all through this.

Mr. HUBERT. Just as it was?

Captain TALBERT. And they said first Main and then before--after I had removed the men from my office to the ramp--not the ramp area, but the parking area and told Sergeant Dean and Sergeant Steele to place them on each intersection to stop traffic for the lights as the people making the transfer approached them. Found then that it was to be Elm Street instead of Main, that it was to be Elm rather than Main and the traffic could go--the reason being that they could swing off of Elm into Houston, directly into the prisoner loading area of the sheriff's office, and those 13 men were placed by Sergeant Steele at each intersection. He didn't have enough. I instructed him that he obtain any additional men he might need from the captain who was in the area of the county jail, and he later called me by phone and told me of the traffic conditions down there, and I had an estimate, I don't recall whether from him or some other officer of the approximate number of people in that area, said around 600 or so gathered up around the county jail; so I instructed Steele to have each one of the men fall in behind or follow fairly closely behind the conveying vehicle so they would be available for any trouble that might develop around the county jail.

Mr. HUBERT. Were you ever told by anyone of the plans of the transfer?

Captain TALBERT. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. That is, the ultimate plan or the----

Captain TALBERT. Well----

Mr. HUBERT. Any sequence of plans?

Captain TALBERT. After the plans had been instituted, Lieutenant Pierce, who I had sent to the homicide bureau previously to see if we could be of any assistance, or see if he could do anything--I didn't see him enter the basement, but as he pulled up onto the ramp--or in an effort to enter the ramp, he stopped his vehicle and called me over and asked me to get in his car. I opened the door, got in on the right-hand side of his car and he told me my--I omitted something, I believe, about this armored car, haven't I? Do you want that in there?

Mr. HUBERT. We'll come back to it.

Captain TALBERT. All right. He told me that he had been instructed to take a car out and get in front of the armored car which was backed into the ramp on the Commerce Street side and to lead the armored car. He was to be the lead vehicle and the armored car, it would go up northbound on Central to Elm, west on Elm and swing in off of Elm on to Houston Street. That two plain cars would pull up behind of the armored car. The prisoner would actually be in the last plain car, and the first plain car would be full of armed homicide officers, and it would cut off on Main Street, west. It would leave the city hall with the cavalcade, and when it hit Main Street the two plain cars with the homicide officers in them with the prisoner would make a left and go west and the armored car and the lead vehicle there would continue to Elm and then west. The two vehicles, or rather the two groups of vehicles would be paralleling each other. One on Main, and one on Elm.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know what the plans were with reference to the controlling of traffic on Main Street on which the prisoner was actually going to be transferred?

Captain TALBERT. No, sir; that was the first information I had is the fact that the prisoner would not be in the armored car. Up until that point, I assumed he would be in the armored car.

Mr. HUBERT. But, at that point, it became apparent that he was not going to be in the armored car?

Captain TALBERT. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. You had already set up a traffic-control system by having assigned men at various intervals on Elm?

Captain TALBERT. Elm; yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. But, if they were going to use Main Street, what control would be used for cross traffic, crossing Main Street?

Captain TALBERT. I have no knowledge, sir. Probably normal transportation, more than likely. That is strictly my idea.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, you said that you wanted to say something about the armored car.

Captain TALBERT. Yes, sir; I had previously been instructed about the armored car by Chief Stevenson and Chief Lumpkin, that was at the time they asked that the officers be placed on Main, and later transferred in to Elm Street, and at the instruction I had, was to have a man be observant, to make sure that the armored car didn't hit--didn't jam it into the overhead of the rampworks.

When the armored car arrived they did back it into the Commerce Street side, and the driver left it up near the front of the ramp because of its weight, rather than height. Although, due to its height, it couldn't have backed much farther down the ramp, but he was afraid that due to the weight of the car the--it wouldn't pull it out. The engine wouldn't have enough power to pull it out of the ramp, and so it was left in that position until after Lieutenant Pierce pulled the plain car that was his normal assignment car, I think equipment 239, although, that is irrelevant, attempted to pull it up the ramp. He couldn't get through the news media, which I would like to add to a little later. I previously had the news media in the jail office. Now, during one of my inspection trips I inspected the first floor of the Police and Courts Building from the doors for Harwood and Main Street to see that there was no congestion, and also, to look the crowds over on Commerce, and during one of my trips, or perhaps I was contacting the dispatcher--I was still conducting my regular patrol duties--the news media was moving from the jail office to the ramps to clear the jail office of them.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you supervise that movement?

Captain TALBERT. No, sir; Chief Batchelor arrived and was told of the preparation that had been made in the basement, and I assumed looked at the office. I wasn't present, but I assume he looked in the office and asked that that news media be removed. He was talking to Sergeant Putnam and Sergeant Dean. I wasn't present, nor was Lieutenant Pierce there.

Mr. HUBERT. So, the news media were moved out of the jail area and where did they then go?

Captain TALBERT. I was told--and this by Sergeant Putnam--that they were first placed on each side of the ramp leading from Main and Commerce, and after the chief observed the conflict there, he had those on the Harwood Street side of the ramp moved across the ramp onto the Main Street side to keep--to make more room for vehicular traffic, and that, of course, was from Sergeant Putnam to me. I don't know what instigated----

Mr. HUBERT. Well, did you have occasion to observe the news media in the ramp and parking areas just prior to the shooting of Oswald?

Captain TALBERT. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, now, I think I should like to have you describe that, and in order to facilitate that, I am going to draw a general oblong figure which I am marking "Area A," and I'm going to draw another general oblong figure which I am marking "Area B," and I would like you to tell us for the record----

Captain TALBERT. May I inject another----

Mr. HUBERT. Well, then, I will mark another oblong area, which I will call Area C.

Captain TALBERT. All right, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. I would like you to describe that for the record--that is, what were the conditions of those areas particularly with reference to congestion of people?

Captain TALBERT. Across from "Area A," there was complete double line and in some instances triple line of men. That was men with cameras and those without. Just the reporters who had no cameras, and in "Area B," in the center of "Area B" I----

Mr. HUBERT. Before you leave "Area A," would you say that the men were shoulder to shoulder?

Captain TALBERT. Oh, more than that. Crammed in there. Jammed----

Mr. HUBERT. Touching each other?

Captain TALBERT. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. And about three ranks back toward Main Street?

Captain TALBERT. That is my impression, yes, sir, about three ranks back.

Mr. HUBERT. Describe "Area B," then?

Captain TALBERT. And "Area B," you had a railing as indicated here by a dotted line. In front of that railing you had at least two or--probably three ranks of people all the way down to the turnoff area, which is the beginning of "Area C." In the center of "Area D," there were two fixed cameras.

Mr. HUBERT. Television cameras?

Captain TALBERT. Television cameras, yes, sir. The others were movie or still cameras and other cameramen, or strictly reporters, and in "Area C," we had a fairly dense group in the immediate Main Street side, and two to three ranks over towards the Commerce Street side dividing it in half.

Now, immediately after Lieutenant Pierce informed me of the change in plans, we had to remove the people from the ramps so that he could get out on the Main Street side, and they immediately closed back up, and as he cleared the parking area to enter the ramp, a plain white or light-colored car pulled onto it, and pulled up behind the armored car on the Commerce Street side, and another plain light-colored car attempted to pull up behind him, but he wasn't up far enough, so, we had to holler at them to pull up a little further, which he did. That car was attempting to back in, and had to cut to the left in order to back up the vehicle--go to the right to get back into the jail-office entrance. That was my understanding of his efforts to do, and the news media was crowding in on him, so, that there was danger of him running over them with his vehicle, should it move. So, I was by the left front fender of that vehicle, Chief Batchelor was to my right, Captain O. A. Jones to my left and we were--and one or two--perhaps more reserve officers were there, too, pushing the news media back to let that car have room to maneuver.

Mr. HUBERT. I am going to mark on the map an area which I am marking auto and----

Captain TALBERT. All right, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. With the understanding that the front of it indicated by an arrow is pointed toward Commerce Street?

Captain TALBERT. All right, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. All right. Now, would you mark the circle where you were about the time of the event you have just described?

Captain TALBERT. This auto is angled in here.

Mr. HUBERT. Maybe we had better angle it then.

Captain TALBERT. Would you like that black pen?

Mr. HUBERT. You do it. We, are changing the blue-pen marking because Captain Talbert indicates that the automobile was on an angle, and he is now marking it with the black pen. Would you put the word "auto," in that, please. Now, draw a circle and indicate where you were standing.

Captain TALBERT. I was standing by the left front fender of the car, as I previously said.

Mr. HUBERT. [Drawing a circle and indicating it number "7."]

Captain TALBERT. Compared with the other, yes. And Chief Batchelor was standing just to the left front of the vehicle, and--I can't draw it in there with this circle correctly, but--we'll indicate that "18," Capt. O. A. Jones was standing to my left, or to the rear of the vehicle from me. Indicating that to be "19," and at the time that vehicle was attempting to back up, we had pushed them back far enough for it to maneuver. At the time it was attempting to back up, there was a muffled report, a muffled shot and bedlam broke out in the vicinity of the jail office entry into the ramp.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you see the shot?

Captain TALBERT. No, sir; I heard it, but did not see the shot and that there was my first knowledge that the prisoner was in the ramp area.

Mr. HUBERT. Which way were you facing just before the shot?

Captain TALBERT. Just before the shot, I was facing the crowd. I had faced, alternately, the automobile and the crowd, as we were attempting to get the thing back, and I was facing the crowd and could feel the automobile pushing against me, I was turning around and pushing back against the car, and as I made a little room, faced the crowd again and pushed them back.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you see Lieutenant Pierce's car leave?

Captain TALBERT. No, sir; I didn't see Lieutenant Pierce's car leave, because of the news media across "Area A." They screened it from me and also because of my preoccupation of getting these two plain cars up behind the armored vehicle.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know Ruby?

Captain TALBERT. I know his face. I know his name. I know his reputation well. I don't know him personally.

Mr. HUBERT. Have you ever met him before?

Captain TALBERT. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you see him that day?

Captain TALBERT. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. I mean after the shot?

Captain TALBERT. After the shot, yes, sir. I'm sorry. After the shot, or after this muffled report, I went over the back of the trunk of this automobile we were trying to back in. Because of these people pushing in I couldn't get--so, I went over the back trunk of it to get to the officers. I saw they were down, and the melee that was taking place, as news media was crowding around in on them, and I give them a little room, and saw both Oswald and another man there who was being dragged into the jail office by the other officer. As soon as we got some room for them to drag them in, I shouted to the top of the entrance both on Commerce and on Main--this may not give you the perspective scope correctly, but it is about 90 feet on--from the place of the shooting to the Main Street entrance. I shouted up to the entrance, "let nobody out," or "nobody out," or something to that effect, and shouted to the top past the armored car the same thing. "Nobody out," and officers on this door told them, "Nobody out," and then went into the jail office, and Ruby was lying on the jail office floor where--with the officers at the time, attempting to handcuff him, as I recall.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you recognize him at that point?

Captain TALBERT. I saw his face. That I recognized, but I didn't recognize him as "Ruby." I asked a question, and may I say this in front of the young lady? I have to apologize. Do you want it verbatim?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes. I'm afraid so.

Captain TALBERT. I asked the question--I said, "Who is this son-of-a-bitch?" And he was saying, "I'm Jack Ruby. Everybody knows me. I'm Jack Ruby." At the same time another officer, or perhaps to answer that--"That's Jack Ruby, he operates the Carousel Club."

Mr. HUBERT. That was when you first recognized him?

Captain TALBERT. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. As being someone that you knew?

Captain TALBERT. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. You had not seen him prior to that time on that, day, to your knowledge?

Captain TALBERT. No, sir, nor for 2 years prior to that, to my knowledge. Approximately 2 years prior to that I was having breakfast at the Pancake House at the Ramada Inn with other officers when a man going out--we were sitting down and the man was going out and passed by and stopped. Was--and he was obtrusively friendly with the other officer, one of them he knew. He knew Lieutenant Pierce who was with me, and Lieutenant Pierce introduced me to him, and from that point until the point where he was on the floor at the jail office, I don't recall having seen him, and the only reason that I remember the Pancake incident, it was after the incident I was reminded of the incident by Lieutenant Pierce. I don't recall of having met him at any time since the old days of his operation at the Silver Spur.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you talk to him, or see him after that?