Chapter XXXI: Part 31

Mr. GRIFFIN. Why don't you put a mark on that diagram there, make it an X?

Mr. DEAN. All right [indicating].

Mr. GRIFFIN. And do you want to label that parking attendant, or whatever you think is appropriate?

Mr. DEAN. All right [indicating], this is a colored boy that usually sits here. He has a bench there he sits on until he is needed. We made him leave.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Made him leave?

Mr. DEAN. In fact, I think he was relieved from duty that day, because I took him out of the Commerce Street ramp.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And was there somebody operating that service elevator?

Mr. DEAN. The service elevator?

Mr. GRIFFIN. How many people were in that service elevator?

Mr. DEAN. There was one. When I said two persons I was thinking of the elevator operator, which is also a colored boy, and the parking attendant.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you want to just put an X on the service elevator, to indicate there was somebody in there?

Mr. DEAN. All right, sir [indicating].

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, you want to place a mark at approximately the place that you stationed the men who were guarding the entrance to the subbasement, this reserve officer?

Mr. DEAN. Oh, the subbasement. Let me see--[indicating].

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me explain this diagram to you. This is the basement, this dotted line here is the upstairs [indicating].

Mr. DEAN. Oh, I see.

Mr. GRIFFIN. This actually goes under the sidewalk here [indicating].

Mr. DEAN. This is where the reserve officer was [indicating].

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, where did you station Brock?

Mr. DEAN. Put him in a position that he could see this door here and also these three elevators [indicating].

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, who else did you station in the basement?

Mr. DEAN. No one--well, Nelson was--let's see, Nelson was here [indicating].

Mr. GRIFFIN. And where did you place Vaughn and where did you place Patterson?

Mr. DEAN. Is this the exit proper, door, here to the--[indicating]?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. This would be the top of the ramp here [indicating].

Mr. DEAN. All right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now, you want to sign this down here and mark on there the time, sign it there and then in the middle of the diagram, so it doesn't confuse things here, put the--well, sign it over under here. If we put time in here, somebody may think that was the time that you made the mark on here. Then if you would label this status of basement, whenever it was that--[indicating].

Mr. DEAN. During the search?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. DEAN. [Indicating].

Mr. GRIFFIN. Okay. Very good. Now, you have marked on here approximately 9:15 to 9:30 a.m. I am not going to ask you what you found there and so forth, because you have made a full statement on it. We know, for example, you found a rifle in the back of one of the police cars?

Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, after the search was completed, where did you go?

Mr. DEAN. The pressmen were allowed to come back in.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me ask you this, where had they been removed to?

Mr. DEAN. Into the police court building, or the basement.

Mr. GRIFFIN. By the records room?

Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. And they were allowed back in the basement?

Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What is your best estimate of the number of policemen that came back into the basement?

Mr. DEAN. Well, of course, it increased as the time went on, so it would be hard to----

Mr. GRIFFIN. How many newspapermen did you have to clear out of the basement at 9:15, approximately?

Mr. DEAN. Oh, approximately 15 or 20, maybe 25.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, when you went down into the basement, before the search, were there any TV cameras down there?

Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir; I believe there was.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you want to indicate on the map here where it is that you think the TV cameras, or camera was placed?

Mr. DEAN. [Indicating.]

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall if there was a TV camera at this location [indicating]?

Mr. DEAN. I believe there was.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, I am referring, so that the record will reflect this, to a TV camera that's in the entranceway from the ramp, towards the jail office, and it's on the Commerce Street wall, along the Commerce Street wall. Did you move that TV camera at that time?

Mr. DEAN. No, sir. Moved the operators away from it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, what did you do after that, after you completed the search and let the people back into the basement?

Mr. DEAN. Let me think. I believe I stayed in the basement area.

Mr. GRIFFIN. At the time that you completed the search, had you heard anything about the time that Oswald would be moved?

Mr. DEAN. No, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Had you heard anything about the route that he would be moved by?

Mr. DEAN. At the time----

Mr. GRIFFIN. That you completed the search?

Mr. DEAN. Yes. About, somewhere around 9:45, Captain Talbert sent me a group of regular officers that had been called in off of patrol district. [Indicating.]

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, can I help you?

Mr. DEAN. My report [indicating]?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes [indicating].

Mr. DEAN. I didn't have in my original report, I do have in my original notes in my locker, as to some traffic assignments that I made. This was about 9:45. These men were sent to me by Captain Talbert. I briefed them about here in the basement, away from everyone, to let no one know the route. This is when Captain Talbert advised me that the route would be to leave the Commerce Street side, go to the expressway, north to Main [indicating].

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that Pearl Expressway or Central Expressway?

Mr. DEAN. Central Expressway. And then west on Main to the county courthouse, or the sheriff's office.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me try to refresh your recollection a little bit here. Up to this point had you heard anything about a proposed route that would have gone from Central Expressway and turned at Elm Street, rather than Main Street?

Mr. DEAN. I was thinking it was--I knew that they changed it, after I made my assignment I had to change them again, because they said they wasn't going to use it. It was either Main Street that they weren't going to use, they were going to Commerce--however, I think you are right. I think originally my assignments were made at the intersections--not Commerce, but Elm, and then they changed the--they being Captain Talbert, and told me that they would not use Elm, that they would use Main Street.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you draw a big circle in this area where you instructed these men, to show roughly what area the men covered, and would you put an appropriate note on there as to what happened and what time?

Mr. DEAN. [Indicating.]

Mr. GRIFFIN. About how many men did you give instructions to?

Mr. DEAN. 13, 15.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Why don't you just put that number there?

Mr. DEAN. [Indicating.]

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did those men then take police vehicles and go to their appointed spots?

Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir. Immediately to their squad cars that had been parked outside and then--they reported into the basement to me for these assignments, they went immediately to these assignments, and these assignments were made at various intersections along the proposed route that Oswald would be transferred.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, was Brock in the basement at the time that you gave that assignment?

Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir. However, he was still at the elevators then.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about Patterson and Vaughn?

Mr. DEAN. They were at their stations.

Mr. GRIFFIN. After you made those assignments, what did you do?

Mr. DEAN. I moved back to the area, when you come out of the jail office, to the ramp, and this is when Lieutenant Pierce came up to me and appeared to be in a hurry--well now, the armored car had already backed into the ramp.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. How much before----

Mr. DEAN. This armored car had backed into the ramp as I was standing here [indicating].

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let's place these times a little bit. How long was it between the time that you instructed these 13 to 15 men to go on their posts and the time that the armored car arrived?

Mr. DEAN. Oh, 10 minutes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Why don't put down here where you made that note, about 10 minutes before armored car arrived?

Mr. DEAN. [Indicating.]

Mr. GRIFFIN. Okay. Now, how much time elapsed between the time you made assignment to these men and the time that you searched the basement?

Mr. DEAN. Fifteen or twenty minutes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Right. Why don't you put down here then 15 or 20 minutes before assignment to Elm Street?

Mr. DEAN. Elm Street?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. DEAN. [Indicating.]

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now, I understand about the time that the armored car arrived, or was it shortly after the armored car arrived, you had a conversation with Lieutenant Pierce?

Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How much after the armored car arrived would you say that conversation occurred?

Mr. DEAN. Five minutes after the armored car arrived.

Mr. GRIFFIN. We don't need to mark that. And this conversation with Lieutenant Pierce occurred in the entranceway, off the Main Street ramp toward the jail office?

Mr. DEAN. Right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was anybody else there when you talked with Pierce?

Mr. DEAN. There were several people around, but they didn't hear his instructions to me, I am sure.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. What did Pierce tell you?

Mr. DEAN. He said for me to go to the armored car, to the rear of the armored car, and to get him two men to go with him, and he said, "Now." Sergeant Putnam was maybe 15 or 20 feet from me, and I instructed him to get an unassigned man immediately and to go with Lieutenant Pierce, and Lieutenant Pierce, by this time, of course, he was going to get his car, or walking over to his car. Sergeant Putnam got--told Sergeant Maxey to go with him, and those three got into Lieutenant Pierce's car with Lieutenant Pierce driving, and I went to the rear of the armored car that had backed in, which was some, I guess 30 feet, 30 to 35 feet from where the shooting was. This armored car backed down, and I imagine it would probably be around 30 to 35 feet. As soon as I got to the armored car I turned around and looked back, and this is when I saw Lieutenant Pierce in this plain black car trying to get past the newsmen and to go out the wrong way.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Up the Main Street ramp?

Mr. DEAN. Right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, is my understanding correct that from the time that you placed your guards in the basement and then began the search, until Pierce's car drove up the ramp, you did not leave the basement area?

Mr. DEAN. That's right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, as you saw Pierce's car go out of the--move out of the garage area, who was in that car?

Mr. DEAN. Sergeant Maxey and Sergeant Putnam, Lieutenant Pierce was driving it. I do recall that Sergeant Putnam had to get out of the car and tell some people to move out of the way so they could drive out.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, where did he get out of the car?

Mr. DEAN. Just as they were turning from the basement to go up the ramp, about this location [indicating].

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see him get back in the car?

Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did you see him get back in the car?

Mr. DEAN. Same place.

Mr. GRIFFIN. So when he drove through this next line of newsmen, when the car went through this next line of newsmen, is it your recollection that Sergeant Putnam was back in the car, or did he follow the car up ahead and clear these others?

Mr. DEAN. I believe he walked on up for a few steps, not too far, and then when he did see that the way was clear he got into the car then, but he did get out of the car to clear the way for the car to move out of the basement.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. Now, did you watch him go out of the ramp up there?

Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And did you see what he did when he got to the top of the ramp?

Mr. DEAN. I couldn't see to the top of the ramp. It's obscured, from where I was. I was halfway up this ramp and I couldn't see to the top of the ramp.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you watch him, though, go up until you lost sight of him?

Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, during the period that you were looking toward Putnam's car, were you able to see the people behind the car in this particular--across the Main Street ramp?

Mr. DEAN. Just as a group. I mean as a group of people.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see anybody in that group that you recognized?

Mr. DEAN. No, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see any police officers that you recognized there, other than Putnam?

Mr. DEAN. None that I paid any attention to. I mean if I had noticed them I could have probably seen someone that I recognized.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. Now, of course, you have known Jack Ruby for 4 or 5 years?

Mr. DEAN. I have known Jack Ruby since, I believe 19--the early part of 1960 or the early part of 1961. It was the time that I came downtown from Oak Cliff, as a sergeant. I met him. Now, the record, or your report from the FBI says that I had known him since 1959, which is erroneous.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Okay. We will do that at the end of the deposition, because I want to get that straightened out.

Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But you knew Ruby well enough so that you would recognize him on sight?

Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And did you see Ruby in that area there?

Mr. DEAN. No, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, after you lost sight of Pierce's car going up the ramp, what did you do?

Mr. DEAN. Well, my attention was focused to this point, because this was a tense time, and I was, of course, watching the exit here from the jail office [indicating].

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you watch how the security developed along in here; what the officers did to maintain security along here [indicating]?

Mr. DEAN. I knew that they had just lined up. However, I didn't pay any attention particularly to this at the time. I knew that Oswald was, in all probability, going to be brought out pretty soon.

Mr. GRIFFIN. As you looked toward the Main Street ramp and saw the newsmen re-form along there, can you recall how deep this line of newsmen was? Do you understand what I mean by how deep?

Mr. DEAN. You mean lengthwise?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. DEAN. It was probably going to about somewhere along here. They were all trying to be within view of the----[indicating].

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there just a single line along there or were there four of five or six different lines; you know, four or five behind each other, or how many?

Mr. DEAN. I know there was a double line and possibly some were standing behind them.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, had you given any instructions prior to the time that Rio Pierce's car went up the ramp, to any men as to how to maintain security along this line of newsmen?

Mr. DEAN. No, sir; I hadn't. The majority of those, I think, were detectives or plainclothesmen.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know if anybody had responsibility for giving instructions to that group?

Mr. DEAN. To my knowledge, I don't know of anyone. I am sure that they did, but I don't know who did.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you receive instructions from anybody concerning how to maintain security along the path from the jail office door to the car that Oswald would be loaded into?

Mr. DEAN. No, sir; at one time I know that there were several cameras set up in this area, and Chief Batchelor told them that they would have to leave this area and move to the basement area. I was present during Chief Batchelor's--or when he told these TV men to move out of that area, inside the jail office, that----

Mr. GRIFFIN. TV cameras inside the jail office?

Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir; and lights set up. This was, I believe, before the search or shortly after the search. I am thinking it was shortly after the search, that these men were told to move out of this area and move their cameras and equipment out into the garage portion of the basement.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, sergeant, did there come a time when you learned that the route was being changed?

Mr. DEAN. The route to the sheriff's office?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. DEAN. This was--I believe I received both of those instructions when I assigned those men. I had already assigned--well, I do know that I had already assigned all these men along this traffic route, and then it had been changed. Captain Talbert said, "No; they are not going to use Main Street--or Elm Street. They are going to use Main," I believe.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you learn this after you had already sent the men out?

Mr. DEAN. No, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, is there anything that makes you sure about that?

Mr. DEAN. Because I reassigned them, at the same time I briefed them, and made these other assignments. I learned that the route had been changed, and I reassigned them, at the same time.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you assign a man to the corner of Main and Pearl Expressway?

Mr. DEAN. Yes; I know that I did, but I can't recall who it was. I have that information in my locker, my original assignments.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I take it you have a lot of notes in your locker, or you have some notes?

Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir; at a later time I will bring those to you, if you like.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I would very much appreciate it. Do you want to make a note of that? If you send them over to us tomorrow, I would appreciate that very much.

Mr. DEAN. Tomorrow?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; and we don't need the originals if you want to----

Mr. DEAN. No; you can have them.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now, what did you do after you saw Pierce's car go up the ramp?

Mr. DEAN. I stood at the rear of the armored car and watched--my attention was focused to this point here, to the exit from the jail office, or the corridor here. I noticed that these two plain cars had pulled up behind, or in my same direction, and I assumed that these two cars would be loaded with officers that would follow the armored car. However, they hadn't loaded. They were pulling into position here and had gotten into position when all the confusion started [indicating].

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me interrupt your train of thought here. In looking at this map, it occurs to me that we don't have Nelson marked on this map [indicating].

Mr. DEAN. Nelson is here [indicating].

Mr. GRIFFIN. Oh, okay; now, do you know if Brock was pulled off this station at anytime prior to the shooting of Oswald?

Mr. DEAN. No, sir; he was told to stay there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But you don't know of your own knowledge----

Mr. DEAN. No, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Whether he was there at that time?

Mr. DEAN. No, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now, as the two police cars moved into position on the Commerce Street ramp behind the armored car, what happened, what did you see happen and what did you do?

Mr. DEAN. I heard someone say, "Here he comes, they are bringing him out." Of course, you could hear voices, loud voices, or excitement, and then I saw a man just dart in--this was during all the confusion, before the shooting, but I do recall seeing a man dart out. I couldn't tell who he was. It was that fast [witness snaps fingers].

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did he seem to dart from?

Mr. DEAN. From the rail over here. The side--just dart out from a group of people that were standing against the rail facing the exit [indicating].

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Can you mark there with an "X" and a circle around it, approximately where he was and how close he was to this railing? Do you think he was right on the railing or [indicating]----

Mr. DEAN. Well, the railing--you have a curb there and then I don't recall how wide that curb is, but the railing, you can lean against standing on the ramp itself [indicating].

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; how far would you say he was from that railing?

Mr. DEAN. I would say he was up against the railing.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, is that the man that shot Oswald?

Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Why don't you put a circle and an "X" down there and write Ruby?

Mr. DEAN. [Indicating.]

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, where was "Blackie" Harrison standing?

Mr. DEAN. I didn't recognize--or didn't notice "Blackie" Harrison. I do recall now and I know where he was standing, next to him, from films I have seen since then. However, I didn't even know he was there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, as I understand from your statement, and interrupt me if I am incorrect, when you saw Ruby shoot Oswald, you moved toward the struggle and then Ruby was taken into the jail office, and did you follow them on in?

Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir. I ran immediately, jumped over these cars, or one of them, jumped over the hood of it, over the top of it, and they were dragging--Ruby and several detectives that were subduing him were about at the door, or [indicating]----

Mr. GRIFFIN. I had just as soon not have you mark at this point.

Mr. DEAN. Okay.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I understand why you want to, but----

Mr. DEAN. All right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you hear, between the time that you saw Ruby move toward Oswald and the time that you reached him, did you hear anything said?

Mr. DEAN. No, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, what did you do when you reached Ruby?

Mr. DEAN. Well, I ran to assist, whatever I could do, or assist the officers, not knowing exactly what had happened--or I knew that there had been a shooting. However, they had enough men that were subduing him, and I asked the question, when they had him on the floor inside the jail office, "Who in the world is it?" And----

Mr. GRIFFIN. Couldn't you tell by looking at him?

Mr. DEAN. No; at the time I couldn't see him because there were so many over him. And they were--well, his face was hidden from me by the amount of officers that were around him. I said, "Who in the world is it?" And evidently I was talking loud over all the other voices, and evidently Ruby heard me and said, "I am Jack Ruby. You all know me."

Mr. GRIFFIN. And how long did you remain with Jack Ruby there in the jail office?

Mr. DEAN. I immediately walked around to where Oswald was laying.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And how long did you remain there where Oswald was?

Mr. DEAN. Oh, maybe--less than a minute. I saw that the doctor--there was an emergency doctor working on him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did you go from there?

Mr. DEAN. I went back out to the basement, out to where the shooting happened.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you do out there?

Mr. DEAN. I was trying to keep all the people in. I heard Captain Talbert say, "Don't let anyone out." And I was echoing his instructions to the men on the ramp, to not let anyone in or out, no one.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did there come a time while you were down there in the basement that you were interviewed by TV men?

Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir; that was after I had--just some few minutes, I don't know, that several newsmen had--or did interview me, yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember which TV station that was?

Mr. DEAN. Tom Pettit is with NBC, I believe. I did know one of the local men, Bob Huffaker. He is with KRLD-TV. But there were several. I don't know----

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now, there was also a time, undoubtedly, that you were interviewed, or somebody quoted you in the newspapers, and there was a great to-do about this, as I understand, in the police department. Somebody claimed----

Mr. DEAN. Misquoted me, yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, was that at this particular TV interview; was that when you made the statement?

Mr. DEAN. The newspaper article that appeared, the news or the writer of that story told me that he wrote that story from my initial interview that was given shortly after the shooting, yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, do you recall talking with that man down there?

Mr. DEAN. The man that wrote the----

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. DEAN. No, sir. I wouldn't know him by sight now.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall ever seeing that man?

Mr. DEAN. No, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, after you had this TV interview, what did you do?

Mr. DEAN. I went to the third floor.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And where did you go on the third floor?

Mr. DEAN. Just as I got off of the elevator Chief Curry approached me, along with another man. He introduced him very quickly as Forrest V. Sorrels, with the Secret Service, or head of the Secret Service here in Dallas, gave me his keys to the outer door that has--or access to the jail elevator, told me to take Mr. Sorrels to the fifth floor to talk to Ruby.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, between the time that you left the jail office----

Mr. DEAN. All right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And you went into the basement area and had the TV interview and then went up to the third floor, did you talk with any of the police officers who had been down there in the basement area?

Mr. DEAN. No, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. While you were in the jail office, before you came out, did you talk to any of the officers who were there, who were in the jail office; did you talk with them?

Mr. DEAN. No, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, why were you going up to the third floor?

Mr. DEAN. I was going to Captain Fritz' office.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And what were you going to do up there?

Mr. DEAN. I was just going to see if Jack Ruby was in Captain Fritz' office, or whether he was taken immediately to the jail. I didn't know where he was taken to.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Why did you want to go up to see Jack Ruby?

Mr. DEAN. To see if they were--this was in my mind, to see if they were going to go ahead and identify him, because I knew other pressmen and other people were going to be asking me, since I had this interview, and see if--did he want me to go ahead and identify him or do what I did in the initial interview, say that this information will have to come from Captain Fritz' office. It really wasn't significant. I knew that I would be talked to at later times all during the day and pressed for the identity of this man, and I wanted to ask them there did they want us to release it or want them to keep it and release it themselves.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You had already told the newsmen?

Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir. I had already told the newsmen this. I didn't identify the man.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You had already told the newsmen that the man who shot Oswald was Ruby?

Mr. DEAN. No, sir. I didn't. I didn't identify the man. They asked me did I recognize this man. I said "Yes." And they asked me could I tell them who he was, and I said I had rather not, and I did not identify him as Ruby. I identified him as a businessman in the city of Dallas, but I did tell them that I recognized the man by sight.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, when you got up on the third floor, where did you see Chief Curry?

Mr. DEAN. Just as I got off of the elevator.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And did you ask him to discuss this problem with you?

Mr. DEAN. No, sir. He immediately introduced--said, "This is Mr. Forrest V. Sorrels, head of the Secret Service in Dallas, and take my keys and take him to the fifth floor to interview Ruby."

Mr. GRIFFIN. You got up to the fifth floor, who was with Ruby?

Mr. DEAN. Detective Archer, D. R. Archer, Detective T. D. McMillon and Detective B. S. Clardy is the three, and that's the only three I can recall standing there. I think that was all that was with him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there a jailer there?

Mr. DEAN. Not standing there necessarily by him. There, of course, are jailers all over the floor, and you know, there were--not particularly around him though. The only ones I can recall standing close to Ruby was those three detectives.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What state of dress or undress was Ruby in at that time?

Mr. DEAN. He was stripped to his shorts.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, what did you do when you got up there?

Mr. DEAN. I walked immediately to him. I heard--well, immediately I told him, I said, "This is Mr. Forrest V. Sorrels"--started the introduction, and Ruby stopped me and he said, "I know who he is. He is with the FBI." Mr. Sorrels then informed him. He said, "No. I am not with the FBI. I am with the Secret Service." And then he again told him, "I want you to know that I am not with the FBI. I am with the Secret Service." And so Ruby said something to the effect, "Well, I knew that you were working for the Government."

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember Ruby making any remark to Sorrels to the effect, "Are you with the newspapermen"?

Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir. I recall most all of that conversation.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Tell us what that conversation was.

Mr. DEAN. After Sorrels had identified himself as a Secret Service man, he said, "I want to ask you some questions." And then Ruby asked him, "Is this for the magazines or press?" And he said, "No. It's for my information, as an agent." And he said, "Okay. I will answer all your questions."

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember any discussion with him, anything Sorrels said about his acquaintanceship in the Jewish community?

Mr. DEAN. Sorrels asked him first, I believe----

Mr. GRIFFIN. No. I am not making myself clear. I am sorry. Did Sorrels say anything to Ruby about Sorrels' acquaintanceship among the Jewish merchants, that you recall?

Mr. DEAN. No. I don't--seems like he said something, that he had--that he knew some Jewish--I don't recall exactly what, but relative to what you are asking, he did say something about he was acquainted with some person that was a Jew, something to that effect.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you acquainted with the name of a guy named Honest Joe?

Mr. DEAN. Right. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Tell us what you remember about that.

Mr. DEAN. Well, he said, "Well, I know Honest Joe or"--In other words, the only thing that I got out of that was that he knew Honest Joe. This wasn't relative to what I wanted to find out from Ruby, and I just disregarded this from my mind.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did this take place inside the jail cell?

Mr. DEAN. No, sir. He was in the hallway or the corridor outside a jail cell. He hadn't been placed in a cell.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And were Archer, Clardy, and McMillon around during this conversation?

Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir. I think they stood there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And how long would you say that Sorrels talked with Ruby?

Mr. DEAN. Oh, 10 minutes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, do you remember anything that Sorrels learned from Ruby?

Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you tell us what that was?

Mr. DEAN. Yes. He asked him what possessed him to do it. Of course, I have testified to all this in court. And he said that he was--had been despondent over the assassination of the President, also Officer Tippit, and that he was a very emotional man, and that out of grief for both these people, was one of the motivations, and that he couldn't see any reason for a long and lengthy trial, even though he believed in due process of law.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he talk with Sorrels at all at that time about how he got into the basement?

Mr. DEAN. No, sir. I asked him--Sorrels didn't ask any questions relative to that. I did.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long after Sorrels finished talking with Ruby did you ask that question?

Mr. DEAN. Immediately. After Mr. Sorrels said, "Okay. Thank you." And I don't recall whether Mr. Sorrels stayed there or whether he walked off.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who else was present when you asked Ruby that question?

Mr. DEAN. I think McMillon and them were still there. I just really didn't--I knew that I wasn't by myself with him. I knew that there was someone there and I believe it was McMillon and Archer that had stayed there. I am not sure.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What else did you talk with Ruby about, after Sorrels finished talking to him?

Mr. DEAN. After Sorrels finished, I said, "Ruby, I want to ask you a couple of questions myself." And he said, "All right." I said, "How did you get in the basement?" And he said, "I walked in the Main Street ramp." And he told me, he said, "I have just been to the Western Union to mail a money order to Fort Worth." And he said, "I walked from the Western Union to the ramp." And he said, "I saw Sam Pierce--" and he referred to him as Sam Pierce--"drive out of the basement. At that time, at the time the car drove out is when I walked in."

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is there a Sam Pierce on the force?

Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir. He is a lieutenant. He is here tonight.

Mr. GRIFFIN. His name is also Rio Pierce?

Mr. DEAN. Lt. Rio S. Pierce, yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Does he go by the name Sam?

Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Does he also go by the name Rio?

Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is one used----

Mr. DEAN. Just as much as the other. Depends on who met him under which name.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now, what else did he talk to you about at that particular time?

Mr. DEAN. After he answered that question, I said, "How long had you been in the basement when Oswald came into your view?" And he said, "I just walked in. I just walked to the bottom of the ramp when he came out."

Mr. GRIFFIN. What else did you talk to him about at that time?

Mr. DEAN. That's all. I heard all of Sorrels' questions and I heard all of Ruby's answers.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, as far as the questioning of Sorrels is concerned, did you testify to that at the Ruby trial?

Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, after you finished this conversation with Ruby about how he got down into the basement, what did you do?

Mr. DEAN. Caught the elevator back down to the basement and got my gun that had been taken there by a patrolman. If I am not mistaken, I rode down on the same elevator with Mr. Sorrels, and then I went back up to the third floor to Chief Curry's office and took him his keys that he had given me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What were the keys to?

Mr. DEAN. They were--well, it was a keyring with a lot of keys on it, but he had given me these to gain entrance to the door that's always locked on the third floor of the jail elevator.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And then how long did you stay down there with Chief Curry?

Mr. DEAN. Just long enough to give him his keys.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did you go after that?

Mr. DEAN. [No response.]

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you go back to homicide?

Mr. DEAN. No; I didn't go back to homicide. I don't remember whether I went back to the basement--I believe that I did, went back to the basement to see how things were down there. And, of course, a great number of people had left the basement, and I assume were en route or were going to the Parkland Hospital to check on--since the focal point had gone to Parkland Hospital, I assumed that's where all these people had gone.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you tell Chief Curry what Ruby had told you?

Mr. DEAN. At that time; no.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you do, now, after you went down to the first floor, the basement, you say; what did you do then?

Mr. DEAN. Well, I don't remember exactly what I did. I did go to Parkland Hospital and I got there before Oswald was pronounced dead, which I think was at 1:07, wasn't it? Somewhere around 1 o'clock?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. DEAN. Yes; anyhow, I stayed at Parkland Hospital and----

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who did you see out at Parkland Hospital?

Mr. DEAN. Well, I talked to Lee Harvey Oswald's mother, and in fact, I had taken her along with some--I assumed some Secret Service men, I assumed they were Secret Service men that were with her when I started talking to her. I went in with her into view the body, her and Marina Oswald, to view the body of Lee.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did somebody assign you to go out to Parkland Hospital?

Mr. DEAN. No, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you happen to go out there?

Mr. DEAN. To check on the condition of Oswald. I knew that--well, it was just reaction for me to go out there, because I knew that I would probably be needed out there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you check in with Captain Talbert before you went out?

Mr. DEAN. No, sir; I did check out with the dispatcher on the radio, that I was en route to Parkland Hospital.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about Lieutenant Pierce, did you check out with him?

Mr. DEAN. I think when I got to Parkland Hospital I called him and advised him that I would be at Parkland until I notified him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When you got out to Parkland Hospital and before you saw Mrs. Oswald, Marguerite Oswald, did you talk with any police officers?

Mr. DEAN. At Parkland?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. DEAN. Well, I am sure that I talked to some. Nothing specific or no orders given, no assignments or anything. I was, more than anything, I was answering questions as to what happened in the basement, from everyone, even policemen and everyone else.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And did you tell them about the conversation you had with Ruby?

Mr. DEAN. No, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Why not?

Mr. DEAN. I just didn't tell anyone about it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, where did you find Marguerite Oswald?

Mr. DEAN. She was waiting in a room just out of the emergency room there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember what Secret Service agents were with her at that time?

Mr. DEAN. No, sir; I don't.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you wait with Marguerite in that room with the Secret Service agents?

Mr. DEAN. No. That's--shortly after I went in to where Marguerite and Marina were, Marguerite wanted to see the body, and they tried to explain to her that they really hadn't gotten him in shape to view yet. He just came out of the operating room, and she said, well, she wanted to see him then, and she more or less was directing her statements and demands to me, since I was the only uniformed officer there, and said that she would like to go in and see him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Why did you happen to go to Marguerite?

Mr. DEAN. Well, I was just standing outside the door there where they said he was, and someone had pointed her out, and said that's the mother and the wife. No particular reason. But I did, after she asked to go in and see him, they said--the doctor said it would be all right for them, and I did go in with them, when they went in to view the body. During the time that we were in this room where Oswald's body was Mrs. Oswald, the mother, turned to me and said that at this time she wanted to make a statement to me in regard to the allegations against her son, that she could--something to the effect that she could prove that they were wrong, and about this time she was interrupted by one of the nurses telling me that I was wanted on the phone. So I left and didn't see----

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who had called you at that time?

Mr. DEAN. Lieutenant Pierce.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where was he?

Mr. DEAN. He was at central headquarters.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did he have to say?

Mr. DEAN. He asked me how long I thought I was going to be there and I said, well, I was leaving now. And then I left and came back to the city hall.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, when you talked to Pierce on the telephone, did you tell him about your conversation with Ruby?

Mr. DEAN. No, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When you drove out to Parkland Hospital, did you drive out alone?

Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When you drove back, did you drive back with anybody?

Mr. DEAN. No, sir; by myself.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, what did you do when you got back to central police headquarters?

Mr. DEAN. I went to our office on the second floor, the patrol captain's office.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And who was there?

Mr. DEAN. Well, I don't recall exactly. I know this was again getting close to the change time. It was somewhere around 2 o'clock, and the secretary told me that I had several phone calls waiting on me, and one of--well, there were some long distance calls that had seen me on television, and I didn't answer all of them.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Any phone calls from anybody you knew?

Mr. DEAN. No; my wife had called. I mean there had just been a lot of people calling.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you make any phone calls when you got that message that you had calls?

Mr. DEAN. No, sir; at the time, about--the only phone call that I had taken was the dispatcher called and--just about the time I walked in, and said that I had a long distance call from--oh, Chicago or somewhere, and they transferred it down there, and, of course, they were asking who this man was, how did he get in, questions that newsmen--it was from some radio station. I didn't----

Mr. GRIFFIN. In Chicago. And did you tell them?

Mr. DEAN. No, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Then what did you do after that long distance telephone call from Chicago?

Mr. DEAN. Well, there was newsmen from KLIF came into the office, asked would I give him a short interview, which I did.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who were those people?

Mr. DEAN. This man, it was Glen Duncan. I didn't know him before. I hadn't seen him before.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Anybody else that you remember with him?

Mr. DEAN. No, sir; he was by himself.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And was that a tape-recorded interview?

Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir; station KLIF.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And how long did that interview last?

Mr. DEAN. Gosh, I don't know. Maybe 4 or 5 minutes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever get a copy of that interview from them?

Mr. DEAN. He sent me one, and it's at home somewhere. It didn't play on my recorder and I didn't even try to play it since then.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you supply that to the Commission?

Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. If you would make a note of that, I would appreciate it.

Mr. DEAN. Any particular speed that you want this?

Mr. GRIFFIN. No; and incidentally, if you would like it transcribed at a speed that will play on your recorder, I am sure we would be happy to do that for you, and just exchange tapes, since we are taking a tape from you, we will give it back to you at a speed you can play.

Mr. DEAN. Okay; all right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, where did this KLIF interview take place?

Mr. DEAN. It was on the second floor there in the small room that was unoccupied at the time.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you do after that interview?

Mr. DEAN. I stayed around the office. I don't remember anything particularly that I did do. Again, answering questions of people coming on. I think that some men had been called in from off duty to report for duty. Gosh, I don't even remember what time I got off from work that day.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you stay around the office all the rest of the time that you were there, that you were on duty?

Mr. DEAN. Well, I would imagine that I went back to the basement. Let me think. The rest of the time I didn't do anything in particular. I mean any specific assignment that I can recall.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But you seem to have some idea that you went back to the basement?

Mr. DEAN. Well, the reason I think that I did, I had been away from there about an hour and a half, and I just wanted to go back. I am sure that I went back down there just to check on the situation and the confusion that might have been in the basement, to see if possibly I would have to notify the on-coming platoon how many men they might need to stay around the city hall, quell this confusion.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you go back up to the third floor at all?

Mr. DEAN. No, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. The rest of that day?

Mr. DEAN. No, sir; I don't think so.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you talk to any officers from the homicide bureau at all, that day, the rest of that day?

Mr. DEAN. Not that I recall; no, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you talk with any police officers that day, about how Ruby got into the basement?

Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who did you talk to?

Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir; now, you are bringing something back. I know now what I did immediately--we will have to go back on the record. When I got back to the city hall, I contacted Lieutenant Pierce and advised him--that's when I talked to Pierce about my conversation with Ruby, and I told him that I had talked to Ruby and that he told me that--how he had gotten into the basement, which was breaking security, and that Officer R. E. Vaughn was the man involved.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Ruby told you--or you told him----

Mr. DEAN. I told Lieutenant Pierce that Ruby had told me he had came in through the Main Street ramp, at which Officer Vaughn was posted.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And then what did you and Pierce do?

Mr. DEAN. He notified the captain of this.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Talbert?

Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And did Talbert come in? Were you present when Pierce notified Talbert?

Mr. DEAN. I was present when--I do know that they called Vaughn in, but I think that he had already gone home that day, and that he was off the next day, and I think they called him to tell him to come, to report to the office this next morning, to investigate whether he did let Ruby in or how he got in, or why he said he came in through his post.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You didn't talk with Vaughn the rest of the day?

Mr. DEAN. No, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And to your knowledge Pierce didn't talk with him the rest of that day?

Mr. DEAN. No, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Or Talbert?

Mr. DEAN. No, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, what else was done that day, as you recall, as a result of your telling Pierce about the conversation with Ruby?

Mr. DEAN. I am sure that--I don't know. I am thinking that Captain Talbert called Chief Fisher, notified him of it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What's your best estimate of what time of the day that would have been, that you talked with Pierce?

Mr. DEAN. It was that afternoon, I believe, after I had gotten back from the hospital. I didn't remember it a while ago, but I think when I did get back from the hospital, that's when I told Lieutenant Pierce about it, somewhere around 2:30 or 3.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is there any kind of record that you would have maintained, or the police department would have maintained, that would give us some better way of fixing that time?

Mr. DEAN. No, sir; not that I know of.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Dispatchers? Did you call the dispatcher to tell them you were coming back?

Mr. DEAN. No, sir; now, it was about 2 when I was talking--or had taken Mrs. Oswald in to view Lee, and I left then, somewhere around 2. So I got back to the station, maybe around 2:25 or 2:30, so when I told Lieutenant Pierce about it, it should have been somewhere around, maybe 3, or the first time I saw him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you, after coming back and talking with Pierce, make any further efforts or make any effort to talk with people who you had assigned in the basement, or who you knew were working in the basement, concerning the security of the basement?

Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir; I did ask Nelson could he say for sure that this man didn't come through his post, and he said he could say for sure that he didn't come through the police and court building, Nelson's post.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, when did you talk with Nelson?

Mr. DEAN. This was, I am sure, when I got back--probably when I got back from the hospital. I don't recall. It might have been before I went. This was my main thought, as to how the man got into the basement.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you call Vaughn at that time?

Mr. DEAN. No, sir; I asked him, just as I asked the others, had this man come through, because I knew the focal point was going to be on Vaughn, and I knew the investigation was going to be on Vaughn.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you talk with Vaughn that afternoon?

Mr. DEAN. It seems that Lieutenant Pierce and I talked to him, and I think Captain Talbert was there. It was up on the second floor. It seems that we did talk to him that day, asked him did he have any knowledge of how he got into the basement. Captain Talbert was doing most of the questioning. I told Lieutenant Pierce and Captain Talbert what Ruby had told me, and from this he was questioning Vaughn.

Now, I think this was in the afternoon and Vaughn was scheduled to be off the next day, and Captain Talbert told him he better come on into work the next day, for the purpose, I assumed, of more investigation.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about Nelson, when was Nelson talked to?

Mr. DEAN. Well now. I talked to Nelson myself. I don't know. I am sure that somebody else did too, but I don't know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was that before or after you talked with Vaughn?

Mr. DEAN. I don't remember.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And where did that conversation with Nelson take place?

Mr. DEAN. He was still on his post when I talked to him. Of course, this--whether it was before I went to the hospital or--I am sure that it probably was before I went to the hospital, that I asked Nelson could he say for certain that this man hadn't come by him, and he said yes. And then I asked Patterson, all of them; Patterson, Nelson, Vaughn, stated the man did not come by their post, but I--the focal would be on Vaughn, since I had been told that that's where Ruby came in, by Ruby himself.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well now. Nelson gave a statement----

VOICE. Excuse me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Off the record.

(Discussion off the record.)