Chapter II: Part 2

Chief BATCHELOR. Along the railing. And they had set up two TV cameras behind this railing.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you mark with an "S," where the two cameras were set up?

Chief BATCHELOR. [Marking.] Then there was another one right here.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was that third camera there when you came down at 10:45?

Chief BATCHELOR. I don't think so. That was the one sitting over there. These were the two sitting out here.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now the two cameras that you placed there had been originally near the record room?

Chief BATCHELOR. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When did you see them near the record room? When you came in in the morning?

Chief BATCHELOR. No. That trip down after we came down.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you take Exhibit 5000, and would you mark those two TV cameras that you saw on the first trip?

Chief BATCHELOR. [Marks.]

Mr. GRIFFIN. I believe you said that that time was 9:15?

Chief BATCHELOR. Yes; now they had been moved here.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Behind the railing?

Chief BATCHELOR. Behind the railing, and this was one sitting here. That was dead.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You are marking in the entrance to the garage off the Main Street ramp?

Chief BATCHELOR. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. That camera that you are marking there in the garage?

Chief BATCHELOR. Not operating.

Mr. GRIFFIN. By that, do you mean that the----

Chief BATCHELOR. It wasn't hooked up.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But the other two cameras which you have marked behind the railing, were they taking shots when you walked down?

Chief BATCHELOR. No; I don't know that they were at that time. They didn't have any lights on, no floodlights on, and they had been told to keep their floodlights off. They didn't turn them on.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Prior to the time that you came down on the second trip at about 10:45, did you discuss with anybody up on the third floor where you wanted these TV people placed and what you wanted done with the lights?

Chief BATCHELOR. We told the men down here, and we told the reporters down here, just kind of announced to them.

Mr. GRIFFIN. As you walked down?

Chief BATCHELOR. Yes. Some of them--one of the supervisors came in and said they couldn't get them all along here and wanted to know if it would be all right to put them along here?

Mr. GRIFFIN. You are indicating at the bottom of the Main Street ramp?

Chief BATCHELOR. Main Street entrance ramp.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Between the railing and jail office?

Chief BATCHELOR. And the wall.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. They wanted to put their cameras there?

Chief BATCHELOR. No; it wasn't cameras. They just wanted to stand there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you tell them?

Chief BATCHELOR. Since we couldn't get them in there, he told them if they would stay back, they could stay there. And there were some officers that were stationed along there to hold them back.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But your original hope was that all of the news media people could be in the entrance to the garage?

Chief BATCHELOR. And they were scattered along here, too. Scattered along the entrance into the garage itself and along here, but some of them, there just wasn't room for them, and some got across here.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did you remain downstairs on this second trip?

Chief BATCHELOR. I don't think this is the second trip. I think, well, I guess it is. But I came down here, and Stevenson and I looked this thing over.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You are going to have to indicate in words.

Chief BATCHELOR. We looked over the basement to see that the security was in order. I noticed an officer at the Main Street ramp.

We walked up the Commerce Street ramp and noticed a crowd of people across Commerce Street, and was told by one of the supervisors that they were keeping them across there, and that they allowed no one on the side next to the police station of the city hall except officers. And the only people over here were either reservists or regular officers. They had officers across the street. Chief Lunday told me they had officers down at the courthouse across from the jail entrance. Was keeping that crowd back there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now as you looked along the sidewalk on the north side of Commerce Street, from the Commerce Street ramp to Pearl--from the Commerce Street ramp to Pearl Expressway--in other words, in the direction of the municipal building, could you see how the police officers were spaced, and how many officers were along the north side of Commerce Street?

Chief BATCHELOR. Well, it is a good ways to Pearl, and the crowd didn't extend anywhere near down to Pearl Street. It was mostly just across from the building up to Harwood Street rather than Pearl. There weren't that many people there. It wasn't like a parade. I guess there were, oh, a couple of hundred people across there, perhaps.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know whether or not there was a police officer at the corner of Pearl and Commerce?

Chief BATCHELOR. I don't know. I don't remember whether there was or not. I'm sure there must have been one stationed there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When you walked out on the sidewalk and were talking about this 10:45 trip down to the basement, what did you do?

Chief BATCHELOR. I turned around and walked back in there. They had parked Chief Curry's car out east of the Commerce Street ramp on the street, double parked, parallel to some parked cars that were already there. Then I drove my car out of the basement and parked it west of the Commerce Street ramp exit, and I double parked it also right behind his, the intention being that when this convoy came out, that he would lead off and I would drop in behind Chief Curry with Chief Stevenson.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you mark on the map where Chief Curry's car was and where your car was placed on Commerce Street?

Chief BATCHELOR. This confuses me a little here. There is not any offset.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Unfortunately, this black line that confuses you represents a basement wall. It doesn't represent the street.

Chief BATCHELOR. [Marks on map.]

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you do after you moved your car out on Commerce Street?

Chief BATCHELOR. Shortly after that just within a few minutes these armored cars arrived.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where were you standing when the armored cars arrived?

Chief BATCHELOR. I was in the basement, but somebody told me down there, shouted that these armored cars had arrived, so I came up again out of the ramp to look at the two cars to see which one we wanted. I looked in the inside of the larger armored car and decided that this one is the one we would have to use because it had room not only for the prisoner, but two guards to be placed in there with him.

And this one--Mr. Hall, I believe is his name--I think it is Mr. Hall that drove the truck up there. And this truck was too large or too tall to drive clear to the foot of the basement ramp. It wouldn't clear this ceiling at that point, so I asked Mr. Hall to back it in, and he started backing it in, and he got the truck inside of the ramp with all of the body inside and the cab on the outside, on the sidewalk. He stopped and suggested that he not go to the bottom of the ramp with it because of its weight. He was afraid that in trying to pull out, he might kill the motor and stall it on the ramp, and suggested that since it blocked the entrance, if we could use it from that point, he would rather it go from that point.

Mr. GRIFFIN. At the point this conversation took place, had you or anyone else to your knowledge told Hall what route would be taken?

Chief BATCHELOR. No; we told him he would follow a lead car, and pointed out the car that he would follow.

Mr. GRIFFIN. At that point, did you indicate to him how soon it would be before Oswald would be brought down?

Chief BATCHELOR. No, sir; this truck was parked in the ramp, and I thought that this would be a safe place to park it because on one side of the truck next to the west wall of the ramp there was only about 12 inches of space. And between the truck and the east wall, there was only 18 to 24 inches of space. I placed an officer between the west wall and the truck, which totally blocked it. And I placed two officers between the truck and the east wall, and that totally blocked that. Then I believe it was Lieutenant Smart and I got in the truck and searched it. We found a soft drink bottle in the truck, which we took out. I found a loose bolt lying on the floor, which I took out.

There was a device on the back side of the truck which was sort of a gauge and a lever which I didn't understand what it was and I asked Mr. Hall what that was, and he said it was an emergency brake in the event something happened to the driver, that whoever was in the back of the truck could pull that lever and stop the truck. We got these items out of the truck and took them away, left the back doors of the truck open to receive the prisoner, and then I went back down to the foot of the ramp and waited, and in a few minutes shortly after the arrival of the truck, Chief Stevenson came down, and this was, oh, nearly 11:30. It was just a matter of minutes before--and told me of the change of plans, and that they were going to send the truck in convoy down through Elm Street, and that the car carrying----

Mr. GRIFFIN. You mean Main Street?

Chief BATCHELOR. No; Elm Street, and that the truck carrying Oswald and a car of detectives would drop out of the convoy, out on Main Street and drive down Main Street by themselves. In other words, the truck was to be a decoy, and the lead car and all the other cars would follow it on down Elm Street, while the car carrying the prisoner would go down Main Street.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What security was there going to be?

Chief BATCHELOR. We had moved the officers over from Elm Street to Main Street on the corner. The only security would have been a car carrying detectives, following the car carrying the prisoner and detectives.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How were the officers moved, by a radio dispatcher, or was somebody sent out?

Chief BATCHELOR. A sergeant was sent out, a three-wheeler. Talbert had it done. I don't recall who did that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you know at this point whether there was an officer stationed at the corner of Main and Commerce? Main and Pearl Expressway?

Chief BATCHELOR. No; I don't know whether there was or not.

(Short recess had.)

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. GRIFFIN. Why don't we state this for the record, that we have had a recess and an off-the-record discussion between Mr. Griffin and Chief Batchelor, and so that the record may be clear about where the policemen who were to guard the route which was originally planned for the transfer of Oswald, on the streets of the city of Dallas, I will let Chief Batchelor at this time explain where they were originally to be stationed, and where they were moved to.

Chief BATCHELOR. They were originally stationed along Elm Street, and later were moved to Main Street where the prisoner would actually go.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I believe that before we took the recess that I was asking you if at the time that you were down in the basement and examining the armored car, you were aware that a man was or was not stationed at the corner of Main and Pearl Expressway?

Chief BATCHELOR. I do not know. I was not aware. I hadn't given that any thought at the time. Actually, Main and Expressway would pose no traffic problem of a turning movement, at that point, because Pearl Expressway, which is a one-way street, and the convoy would have been next to the curb, and it would pose no problem at this point, trafficwise.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When Chief Stevenson came downstairs and told you that the route had been changed, where did he tell you that the caravan would turn off Commerce Street?

Chief BATCHELOR. On Central Expressway.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When it turned left on Central Expressway, where would it next turn?

Chief BATCHELOR. The convoy would go to Elm Street, but the prisoner and a car of detectives would turn off at Main.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you discuss with him the reasoning behind this decoy?

Chief BATCHELOR. I merely asked him why the change, and he said they decided to change it up in the Homicide Bureau in a discussion with Chief Curry, because if anyone attacked, they would have the prisoner in a car separate from the convoy and the public would not know this, and they thought this would be a wise move.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now you all were aware that the TV cameras were going to be focusing on the car or the vehicle that Oswald was placed in, didn't you? The people in the downtown streets wouldn't be able to see that, but there were also newsmen down there who were broadcasting and they would be able to tell people listening in on the radio what car?

Chief BATCHELOR. You are arguing with me. I had nothing to do with moving the prisoner.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I didn't mean to argue with you, chief.

Chief BATCHELOR. I didn't make the decision and I don't know whether it was wise or not. It is a moot question now.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, now, what next happened after you talked with Chief Stevenson about this change in plan?

Chief BATCHELOR. This happened when he told me about it, just moments before they actually brought him down, and he told me they were bringing a car up on the ramp, two cars up on the ramp, one to carry the prisoner and one to carry the detectives.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me go back one bit here. You stated that you came down. This one time you are talking about was an episode where you went through the armored car, and this would have been your third trip downstairs?

Chief BATCHELOR. And my last one.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And your last one. Now the first trip that you came down the stairs was when you saw these reserve officers over by the elevators?

Chief BATCHELOR. Actually, that was the second trip down, I believe.

Mr. GRIFFIN. That would have been about what time?

Chief BATCHELOR. Oh, probably 10 or 10:15, somewhere along in there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. So that the trip that we have been referring to in the past, the 10:45 trip, is really most clearly distinguished by the----

Chief BATCHELOR. I may be a little mixed up on my time, but the last trip, the trip we are talking about when we searched the armored car and put that in place, that was fairly close to the movement of the prisoner, and I would say somewhere around 10:45 to 11 o'clock.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now that happened somewhere around 11:20?

Chief BATCHELOR. About 10:45.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But you never went back upstairs, from the time that you moved your automobile up onto Commerce Street and the time that you searched the armored car?

Chief BATCHELOR. No; Chief Stevenson did, but I didn't.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long would you say you were downstairs from the time that you walked down and moved your car out on the street and Oswald arrived?

Chief BATCHELOR. Possibly 30 minutes or 35.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now after you finished examining the armored car and you talked with Chief Stevenson, did you get a chance to look at the placement of the news personnel, the news media people in the basement?

Chief BATCHELOR. Shortly before he came down, yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now looking toward the Main Street ramp, how many rows deep, if there was more than one row at all, were the policemen who were blocking the Main Street ramp?

Chief BATCHELOR. How many rows deep were the policemen?

Mr. GRIFFIN. I'm sorry, the news people, if you understand what I mean?

Chief BATCHELOR. There was about, as I remember it, about two deep along there. Some places there might have been a third man behind, but most about two deep.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you come here and mark along the Main Street ramp about how deep these people were?

Chief BATCHELOR. [Marking.] There weren't many along there because there were cameras there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How many people would you estimate were in that area there?

Chief BATCHELOR. Oh, there couldn't have been too many in that particular area there. It is only 15 feet wide, maybe 20 or 25 in there, maybe 30.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, just before Oswald was brought down, where were the rest of the news people placed?

Chief BATCHELOR. They were along here.

Mr. GRIFFIN. That is blocking the garage entrance?

Chief BATCHELOR. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. About how many people would you say were in that area?

Chief BATCHELOR. I don't know. Altogether there must have been, gee, we had around 70 policemen in that basement altogether, and there must have been 60 or 70 reporters and photographers and press people. They were fairly deep across here. But this is wider and they were two or three deep across there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You want to mark in there where you have indicated?

Chief BATCHELOR. [Marks chart.]

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you say that they were deeper across the entrance to the garage than they were blocking the Main Street ramp, or were they about the same?

Chief BATCHELOR. I wasn't paying too close attention to how deep they were. There was more than one line of them.

Mr. GRIFFIN. There was?

Chief BATCHELOR. Yes; they were two to three deep across here [marking].

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were there police officers in there also?

Chief BATCHELOR. Yes; there was police officers intermingling all along here.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Had you given any instructions to the police officers up to this point as to how they should stand in relationship, where they should be facing?

Chief BATCHELOR. No, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now after talking with Chief Stevenson, what next happened?

Chief BATCHELOR. Almost immediately the car containing Lieutenant Pierce and I believe Sergeant Maxey pulled out of here, and these people had to step back, and they pulled out, and the detective cars were pulled here in on the ramp and backed into position.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Chief, at this point, just before Oswald was brought down, were there any automobiles in the portion of the garage which would be the north half of the garage, do you recall?

Chief BATCHELOR. As I recall it, there were one or two vehicles parked back in here, police vehicles.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. Were there any police vehicles, and if you don't have any recollection, state that. Do you recall if there were any police vehicles along the railing of the Main Street ramp?

Chief BATCHELOR. I don't recall. If there were, they were back from this entrance. There weren't any in the immediate entrance to the jail door.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall if there were any people other than the people manning these TV cameras, behind the railing?

Chief BATCHELOR. I don't recall that. I don't think there were, because these people here went up to just about where the cameras were. This curved a little bit around here. It wasn't just a straight line. It would curve a little bit like this, then, but they were standing away from the front of those cameras, because those cameras were on a tripod at a level on the floor, which was lower than this ramp level.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, as Pierce and Maxey's car went up the ramp, did you watch it go up the ramp?

Chief BATCHELOR. No, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you do as it went up the ramp?

Chief BATCHELOR. I don't recall. I was up here. I was more concerned with this truck here and getting this truck out of there when this thing started.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you watch Pierce and Maxey's car go through the line of newsmen?

Chief BATCHELOR. I saw it. I wasn't----

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you paying any attention?

Chief BATCHELOR. Not particularly. I do remember seeing it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. After Pierce and Maxey's car broke through the line of newsmen, what do you remember next happening?

Chief BATCHELOR. I remember backing these or pulling up these two detective cars that were to carry Oswald, and one detective pulled up here a little ways, and he had to pull up a little further so this one could get up, and they then backed up. And this one had hardly gotten in place, barely had stopped, when somebody shouted, "Here he comes."

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right, now, are you sure--how certain are you that these two detective cars pulled out after Pierce and Maxey?

Chief BATCHELOR. I don't think Pierce and Maxey could have gotten out with those two detective cars where they were.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Sounds pretty good to me.

Chief BATCHELOR. While they were in place, they couldn't have pulled around here, because they were blocking this entrance here.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now, who drove those two detective cars?

Chief BATCHELOR. I don't recall. Men out of the Homicide Bureau, but I don't know which ones.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Are they listed in this report, do you recall?

Chief BATCHELOR. I don't think they are listed in that report. I am pretty sure they are not.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Detective Brown?

Chief BATCHELOR. Where do you see that?

Mr. GRIFFIN. It is on page 32. "Stevenson then proceeded across the driveway to the entrance to the garage where Detective C. W. Brown, driving one car, and Detective Dhority, driving the second car, was preparing to pull the cars behind the armored car." Do you remember Brown or Dhority walking to the cars in the basement?

Chief BATCHELOR. I wasn't directing my attention to them at the moment they did that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know or have you heard whether they were sitting in those cars for a long period of time, or a few minutes, or whether they----

Chief BATCHELOR. I don't know, but I imagine so. I think they came down for that express purpose, after this plan was changed.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where were you standing as the rear car--that is, the car closest to the exit from the jail office----

Chief BATCHELOR. I was standing over in here.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you place an "X" on the map where you were standing?

Chief BATCHELOR. Well, I don't remember exactly where I was standing at the time that they pulled those cars up, but I think I was standing over here, and then moved to this position as they were backing in, because I had been talking to Chief Stevenson just about that time, and we were talking right up in here.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now at the time you heard the shots fired, would you place on this map where these two automobiles were and where you were standing?

Chief BATCHELOR. One car was right here, approximately, and the other car was ahead of it, and I am not drawing this in very good proportion, but this is the order they were in, and I was standing, and this I know in good order, because I was standing about midway of this thing, which was along about the back fender of this car, that I was standing right along here. But these cars were larger than that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Why don't you cross out that Ford car there and redraw it up where it was?

Chief BATCHELOR. I was standing here, and this one was back here more in this position.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you put your name where you have made the circle?

Chief BATCHELOR. (Marks on chart.)

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now do you remember what other officers or people were around you?

Chief BATCHELOR. No; I don't remember who. There was a whole bunch of people.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What happened when you heard the shot fired? What did you do?

Chief BATCHELOR. Well, actually before the shot was fired, when I was standing along here, and when somebody shouted, "Here he comes." I started to go to that truck, that armored truck and close the doors on it, the back doors so it could take off. And I turned to do that when I heard the shot. I hadn't taken over a step or two over to the door when he was shot.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Then what did you do?

Chief BATCHELOR. I turned around and looked back and came over there. There was a whole group of people had him down. It was a big----

Mr. GRIFFIN. Had Ruby down?

Chief BATCHELOR. Had Ruby down. They had pulled Oswald into the jail office, and then pulled Ruby in behind him.

I went into the jail office to look at them, and they had Ruby down on the floor on his back and was trying to handcuff him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let's focus on the time when they had Ruby down on the ground out there on the ramp, the ramp area. Where did you stand at that point?

Chief BATCHELOR. I stood off in the crowd. I didn't even see what was going on. There was such a crowd.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you hear Ruby say anything at that point?

Chief BATCHELOR. No, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you hear any of the police officers say anything?

Chief BATCHELOR. No, sir; not when I walked right up there to it. But I did hear someone shout, "Jack, don't you so-and-so," but this was before they got him down. I mean, this was almost simultaneous with the shot.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you follow Ruby and Oswald into the jail office then?

Chief BATCHELOR. After a little bit, a minute or two after, I remained in the jail office and asked Lieutenant Wiggins if they had called an ambulance, and he said they had.

I walked over and looked at Oswald, and this intern had come in and was giving him some pressure on his lower rib section.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did you see Ruby at that time?

Chief BATCHELOR. I saw him on the floor. I couldn't see him too well. There was several men on top. He was still struggling in the jail office, but they had already gotten the gun away from him and they were trying to get him handcuffed and get him down and laying still, but he was fighting them.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you hear him say anything?

Chief BATCHELOR. No; I don't recall anything he said.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you hear the officers say anything to him?

Chief BATCHELOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did you remain there?

Chief BATCHELOR. Just a few minutes. The ambulance came almost immediately. It was just--I walked out of there before the ambulance came and walked back. Someone shouted right after this happened, and there was a lot of confusion, and someone shouted, "Don't let anybody out."

There were a bunch of reporters that started running like they were frightened. I suppose they were running to telephones, but they tried to run up the Main Street ramp, and I remember very clearly the officer at the top of the ramp pulling his gun and said, "Get back down."

They turned around and walked back down, but most of them escaped through the corridor. Not out the ramp, but went out through the corridor.

Mr. GRIFFIN. This is the corridor that leads from the record room to Commerce Street?

Chief BATCHELOR. Well, yes. They escaped out the corridor off the hallway that leads in front of the jail office into the Records Bureau, and then to Commerce Street.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did they escape out Commerce Street?

Chief BATCHELOR. I don't know where they went from there, whether they went upstairs to use the telephone, or out in the street. But there would have been nobody over there that heard the command not to let them out. This was kind of a spontaneous command.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What percentage of people would you say got out of the basement? News media people got out of the basement that way?

Chief BATCHELOR. I don't know. They scattered pretty quickly. Still a lot hung around after it was over. I would say half, at least, got out that way.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, were you in the jail office when Ruby was taken upstairs in the elevator?

Chief BATCHELOR. Was I in the jail office when he was taken upstairs?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Chief BATCHELOR. No, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where were you?

Chief BATCHELOR. I went as soon as the ambulance came and got him, I ran up the ramp and told him to get that truck out of there, that it was blocking the entrance to the ramp, and then I left and went upstairs and told Chief Curry what happened. By the time I got up there, somebody called him and he knew what happened.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you do next?

Chief BATCHELOR. Lord, I don't remember what I did next. We sat there kind of dumbfounded for a while.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did there come a time during the rest of the day when you talked with Ruby?

Chief BATCHELOR. I never did talk with Ruby.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall the rumors, stories that began to come in about how Ruby got down into the basement?

Chief BATCHELOR. In the course of the next day or two we heard lots of rumors that he had a press card. This was the prevailing rumor, that he had a press card, but there wasn't a press card found on him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I am trying to direct your attention to the events fairly close after the time of, the time Oswald was shot. What did you do in connection with attempting to find out how Ruby got down in that basement?

Chief BATCHELOR. I don't know that I did anything specifically to try to find that out. We began to think in terms of an overall investigation into the matter.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Chief Curry convene any sort of meeting or gather together any of the top officers to discuss this?

Chief BATCHELOR. He discussed it with Lumpkin and Stevenson and I. I don't recall exactly when this happened, whether it happened just--I am sure it didn't happen just immediately after it happened, because there were obvious things that would take place first, and that would be the investigation, that homicide would carry on, an interrogation of Ruby himself.

We even got some rumors the next day that some of our officers had borrowed money from a bank and Ruby was a cosigner on the note, and we ran a check at every bank in Dallas, but the banks where this--the most probable one was the Republic Bank. We ran a check there by sending the name of everybody that was in that basement over to the bank, and having them check for us and see if they had any notes on these people.

We also checked with, I believe, the Mercantile, and we checked with the Oak Cliff Bank and Trust Co., because Ruby happened to live out in that area.

We didn't know whether he had an account, but none of them found anything to date.

Mr. GRIFFIN. This meeting or a little conference that you referred to that you and Curry and Lumpkin and Stevenson had, about how long after Oswald was shot did this occur?

Chief BATCHELOR. I don't remember whether that was that day or the next day, but it resulted in Chief Curry pulling some men out of the special service division with Captain Jones in charge, and we had about six men on the team besides the captain to investigate every aspect of this, which was in terms of locating all of the people that were assigned down there, locating as many of the press as they knew were down there, and getting statements from all of these people. Then also we discovered this matter of this money order, and we followed that thing out.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you personally talk with Officer Dean at any time on the Sunday that Oswald was shot? After Ruby shot Oswald, did you talk to Dean?

Chief BATCHELOR. Dean said something to me, and I don't remember whether it was Sunday or not. I believe it was Sunday afternoon, sometime, or evening, to the effect that he had been up and talked to Ruby with Mr. Sorrels, I believe was present there, and that Ruby told him he came down that ramp.

He told him that an officer, that a car came in, and an officer stopped and talked with the fellows in the car, and while he was talking to them, he walked down there.

There is nothing to indicate that the officer did talk to the officers that went out other than maybe to speak to them. I mean, but it appears evident now that while the officer did walk away momentarily a few feet from the entrance is when he got in.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When Dean made this statement to you, did you know that he had spoken to a newspaper reporter also?

Chief BATCHELOR. No, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know whether this conversation you had with Dean was before or after he spoke to the newspaper people?

Chief BATCHELOR. No, sir; I don't know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have an occasion to talk with an officer by the name of Newman that day?

Chief BATCHELOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have occasion to talk to Officer Vaughn on that day?

Chief BATCHELOR. No; over on top of the ramp?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Chief BATCHELOR. No; as a matter of fact, I never have talked with Vaughn. And I wasn't talking to Dean in the nature of interrogating. He voluntarily told me this.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was anybody else present when Dean told you that?

Chief BATCHELOR. I don't recall that there was. I don't think there was.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall where this conversation occurred?

Chief BATCHELOR. No; it was there in the city hall, but I don't remember exactly where. It was probably up on the third floor.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now I am going to mark for identification, "Dallas, Tex., Chief Batchelor, March 23, 1964, Exhibit 5002."

Can you tell us briefly what that is, Chief?

Chief BATCHELOR. That is a monthly assignment board or bulletin, which has the names of all the members of the police department in it and their assignments for the month of November 1963.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that a true and accurate roster of the people who were employed in the department on the day that Ruby shot Oswald?

Chief BATCHELOR. It would be, with the exception of any few that might have been reassigned, or any few that might have, in the course of the month, been transferred from one division to another, which occurs frequently. But for the most part it is correct.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Or, also a few that had been hired?

Chief BATCHELOR. Or a few that had been hired during that month. They are not on there; yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now you and I have spoken at some length during the last day, not counting the length of time we spent here. Do you recall that in your office this morning we talked some about security measures in the protection of the President?

Chief BATCHELOR. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have any suggestions that you would make as to how, as a result of your experience, you think the President might be more effectively protected?

Chief BATCHELOR. I don't know how you would correct this exactly. One of the problems that we experienced was the fact that such, of such a short time to do some of the planning that we had.

We didn't know until just one afternoon, actually, in terms of Love Field security, actually where the President's plane would be placed.

We didn't know until 2 days before his arrival what the parade route would be. This posed some problem in terms of assignment of personnel and properly instructing personnel as to what their procedures should be.

I think one thing that would be helpful would be for a standard general procedure of things that those responsible for protection of the President could put out to police departments such as certain standard types of coverage that would always apply.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you give us any example from your own experience where this would have been useful on this unfortunate trip?

Chief BATCHELOR. One thing you need in a situation like this is explicit written instructions to officers as to such things as watching the crowd rather than the President.

This is a general accepted thing in most police departments.

Sometimes you have new personnel that comes in and they need to be told this specifically. We had an instance in which we were asked to guard all of the overpasses, railroad and vehicular, and we instructed the officers verbally that they were to let no unauthorized personnel on these overpasses. But there was no definition of what "authorized personnel" was.

And in one case, there were people on an overpass which the President had never reached.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was this the triple railroad overpass at the base of Elm Street?

Chief BATCHELOR. Yes; they would have just gone under, or would have gone under momentarily had he not been shot.

There were a number of railroad track workers on this overpass, and we had officers up there, but they considered them to be authorized personnel because they worked for the railroad, and they were all lined along there watching for the parade which never did go under them.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How many persons do you remember having been up there?

Chief BATCHELOR. I was not there. I heard about it. I understand there were probably 10 or 12 people up there. But actually, there should be nobody over the immediate route the President goes under. But there are certainly, there seems to me, certain generally accepted procedures that, and certain general types of security that every police department ought to be aware of, that is standard operating procedure, plus whatever specific thing that the various circumstances might want done; some sort of suggested procedure on their part, with it published, that might be helpful to police organizations.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I want to go off the record here a moment.

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let's go on the record on this.

We have been speaking off the record about other suggestions which Chief Batchelor has, and one of the things that he has pointed out is that there is not enough advance notice of what the Presidential route is going to be to enable the police department to satisfactorily handle the administrative problems of selecting people to place them at particular intersections.

Do you want to add any more to that statement that I have made of what you have just told me?

Chief BATCHELOR. No. I realize there is another aspect on this too, on the part of the Secret Service, that they want, that is, that they don't want too much advance notice to the public. This is the reason I am not criticizing.

(Further discussion off the record.)

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me go on the record and ask you a question here. Do you think, Chief, it would have been possible to station people in the middle of the downtown block with the instructions to watch various buildings in a periphery of their vision.

Chief BATCHELOR. Yes. This would be feasible. We did have men in the middle of the downtown, several of them in each block, they were primarily watching the crowd of people rather than the windows.

When you are in an area of skyscrapers and you are standing right at the foot of these skyscrapers, you couldn't see windows too far up more than just a few floors, but we did have men in the middle of the block, but they weren't instructed to watch the windows as much as they were to watch the people.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did these men actually have any specific instructions as to how they were to go about watching the people or the windows?

Chief BATCHELOR. We had experienced detectives down there in the immediate block watching in the crowd and then we had some reservists, too, and we had instructed our people in the course of training that when somebody comes by, that you are supposed to secure, that you are not supposed to watch that person, but supposed to watch the crowd.

Whether all of them remember this or not--when you don't get a President here but every number of years, why you don't know. That is the reason I think that in some places where they have these kind of people frequently, this is probably routine.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have men stationed in the neighborhood of Elm and Houston and the School Book Depository that were instructed to be watching the crowds?

Chief BATCHELOR. No, sir; I don't think anyone was stationed below Houston Street. At that point, I don't know whether any crowd along that particular point was even anticipated or not. It was away from the business section and it was not any buildings on either side of the street there, actually.

The School Book Depository faces on Elm Street, which is parallel to the Elm Street ramp that goes under the triple underpass.

It is a couple of hundred feet across from the street to that Building and there wasn't anybody placed down there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You don't recall that there was a police car stationed either along Elm Street or Houston near that intersection?

Chief BATCHELOR. There was a police car that preceded the two of them, as a matter of fact, that preceded the Presidential convoy. One was a quarter of a mile ahead and one was back of that one.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I am referring to a stationary car at the intersection.

Chief BATCHELOR. No; there wasn't one, that I know of.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Okay, I think that is it.

TESTIMONY OF ASSISTANT CHIEF CHARLES BATCHELOR RESUMED

The testimony of Assistant Chief Charles Batchelor was taken at 12:30 p.m., on April 1, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Leon D. Hubert, Jr., assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. HUBERT. Chief Batchelor, I think that you made a deposition before Burt Griffin, a member of the advisory staff of the President's Commission, now on March 23, 1964, is that not a fact, sir?

Chief BATCHELOR. That is correct.

Mr. HUBERT. I think also that you have now read the transcript of that deposition and that you have made certain corrections of typographical errors in pen and ink and by initialing those. You advise me now that you are willing to sign the deposition except that there are two statements, one on page 199, and one on page 219, that you wish to clarify, or change; is that correct?

Chief BATCHELOR. That is correct.

Mr. HUBERT. Now chief, are you willing to consider this deposition as a continuation of the deposition taken by Mr. Griffin on the 23d?

Chief BATCHELOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Are you willing also to waive any notices that you would be entitled to before we begin this continuation of the deposition?

Chief BATCHELOR. That's correct.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you consider yourself to be under the same oath that you were at the time you made the deposition before Mr. Griffin?

Chief BATCHELOR. I do.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, sir. Now, I understand that you wish to comment, or change the following: On page 199, lines 9 and 10 read as follows:

"Chief BATCHELOR. You are arguing with me. I had nothing to do with moving the prisoner."

Now, Chief, what do you say about what I have just read?

Chief BATCHELOR. That statement was inadvertently incorrect. I wished to say that I had nothing to do with changing the plans of moving the prisoner.

Mr. HUBERT. Now turning to page 219, we find that lines 11 through 14 read as follows, to wit:

"I don't know how you would correct this exactly. 'One of the problems that we experienced was the fact that such, of such a short time to do some of planning that we did'".

Do you wish to make a comment about that statement, sir?

Chief BATCHELOR. I don't recall the exact language I used in the statement, but the sentence is grammatically incorrect. It should read:

"One of the problems that we experienced was the fact that we had such a short time to do some of the planning that we had to do."

Mr. HUBERT. Other than that, Chief, have you found that the transcription of your deposition is correct?

Chief BATCHELOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, sir. Then, when these notes concerning the corrections have been typed out I think you will be in a position to sign the original deposition, now, making a notation that you signed it approving all except such as has been corrected this morning?

Chief BATCHELOR. That's correct.

Mr. HUBERT. And then you will also sign the second deposition, as it were, which is this morning's deposition?

Chief BATCHELOR. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Thank you, sir.

TESTIMONY OF CHIEF JESSE E. CURRY

The testimony of Chief Jesse E. Curry was taken at 9:15 a.m., on April 15, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr., assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. HUBERT. This is the deposition of Jesse E. Curry of the Dallas Police Department.

Mr. Curry, my name is Leon Hubert. I'm a member of the advisory staff of the general counsel of the President's Commission. Under the provisions of Executive Order of the President, No. 11130, dated November 29, 1963, the joint resolution of Congress No. 137, and the rules of procedure adopted by the President's Commission and in conformance with the Executive order and the joint resolution, I have been authorized to take a sworn deposition from you, Mr. Curry.

I state to you now that the general nature of the Commission's inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate, and report upon the facts relating to the assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of Lee Harvey Oswald.

In particular, as to you, Mr. Curry, the nature of the inquiry today is to determine what facts you know about the death of Oswald and any other pertinent facts you may know about the general inquiry of the security of Oswald, the transfer of Oswald, and so forth.

Now, Mr. Curry, I think you have appeared here today by virtue of an informal request----

Mr. CURRY. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. By the Commission's General Counsel to appear here. It is my duty to state to you that under the rules adopted by the Commission, every witness who appears before the Commission is entitled to a 3-day written notice before his deposition can be taken. The rules also provide, however, that the 3-day written notice can be waived if a witness wishes to waive it and go ahead and testify, so I ask you now if you are ready and willing to testify now and are willing to waive the 3-day notice?

Mr. CURRY. I am.

Mr. HUBERT. Will you raise your hand and stand, sir, so that you may be sworn?

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give before the Commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. CURRY. I do.

Mr. HUBERT. Would you state your full name?

Mr. CURRY. Jesse Edward Curry.

Mr. HUBERT. Your age, please, sir?

Mr. CURRY. Fifty years of age.

Mr. HUBERT. Where do you reside?

Mr. CURRY. 2508 Loving Avenue.

Mr. HUBERT. Dallas?

Mr. CURRY. Dallas, Tex.

Mr. HUBERT. What is your present occupation, Chief?

Mr. CURRY. Chief of Police, Dallas Police Department.

Mr. HUBERT. And how long have you been occupying that position?

Mr. CURRY. Since January 20, 1960.

Mr. HUBERT. How long have you been with the Dallas Police Department altogether?

Mr. CURRY. Since May 1, 1936.

Mr. HUBERT. And how did you begin?

Mr. CURRY. I began, I believe, as a traffic police officer--well, I worked in a squad car a few days as a patrolman, and then worked as a traffic officer for several months.

Mr. HUBERT. How old were you when you began?

Mr. CURRY. Twenty-three--I lacked a few months being twenty-three.

Mr. HUBERT. What education have you, Chief?

Mr. CURRY. I graduated from the Dallas high schools--Dallas Technical High School. I did not go to college. I studied a short time--optometry a short time after that, after graduating from high school.

Mr. HUBERT. What employment did you have between leaving high school and joining the police force?

Mr. CURRY. I worked a short time for Vitalic Battery Co., as I recall, and at the time I entered the police field, I owned a small cleaning and pressing shop out in East Dallas, which I owned and operated.

Mr. HUBERT. Are you married?

Mr. CURRY. Yes; I am.

Mr. HUBERT. You have a family?

Mr. CURRY. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Would you state who they are, how many children?

Mr. CURRY. I have three step-children--no, it's two step-children, one son of my own and one daughter of my own.

Mr. HUBERT. I take it that you're practically a lifetime resident of Dallas?

Mr. CURRY. Yes; I moved here when I was less than a year old.

Mr. HUBERT. It appears to me from what you have said that you began at the bottom of the ranks in the police department?

Mr. CURRY. That's right.

Mr. HUBERT. And would it be fair to say that you worked your way through, as it were?

Mr. CURRY. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Up the line?

Mr. CURRY. Yes, sir; I worked in practically every assignment the police department has, and through civil service examinations was able to gain promotions to a detective, sergeant, lieutenant of police, captain of police, inspector of police, and inspector of police is the highest civil service rank obtainable.

Mr. HUBERT. When did you attain that rank, Mr. Curry, roughly?

Mr. CURRY. I believe it was about 1951, along about that as inspector--I don't recall exactly.

Mr. HUBERT. Does the obtaining of that rank in the civil service system involve special studies?

Mr. CURRY. Well, you must make some special studies in order to compete with the other men who are trying to reach promotion through examination. During these years I won a fellowship to Northwestern University Traffic Institute and attended that school in 1945-46. I graduated from there. In 1951 I was sent to the FBI National Academy in Washington, D.C., and I graduated from that school.

Mr. HUBERT. I wish you would tell us other schools or training sessions you have attended.

Mr. CURRY. Well, I've been to several schools conducted in the Dallas area. I have been to 2 weeks training school by the department of public safety in Austin. I have been to several schools conducted by Southern Methodist University and the FBI here in the Dallas area through the years. I have also taken correspondence training courses from the City Managers' Association, and I believe that's about the extent of my training.

Mr. HUBERT. Were you in service during the war, sir?

Mr. CURRY. I was in what was called the CPA, Civilian Pilot Training. It was a program that was open to people who were over combat age--in the Air Force. We did not receive any pay when we first went in. We volunteered our services and we were taught to fly. We attended ground training school; I was assigned to Gainesville Junior College and flew out of Gainesville, out of the airfield there. I was then sent to TCU in Fort Worth where I continued my studies at TCU and flew out of Meacham Field, and then I was sent to Amarillo Air Force Base. We were not on the base, but we were assigned in that area and we waited there for, it seemed to me like 2 or 3 weeks and never received any training. We were then notified that we had an opportunity to either ask for release or discharge from the service because we understood--because of an oversupply of pilots, or else to remain in the program and be sent to various branches of the Air Force for various assignments.