Chapter XXIV: Part 24

Mr. NEWMAN. I would say it was just about that location [indicating].

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. And is the way we have got this drawn here at this point, with the one pencil mark in there, the way the area from here on up, all the way up to here and the whole building appeared at the time Oswald was shot, from this spot [indicating]?

Mr. NEWMAN. That's the way it appeared to me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you tell us anything about that area there [indicating]?

Mr. NEWMAN. No. I do remember one thing, now, that was--some half hour before that, where another automobile was parked, if you are interested.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; I am.

Mr. NEWMAN. It was parked, I would say, approximately here. I will mark this "second auto"; is that all right [indicating]?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Just mark it "car one half hour before shooting."

Mr. NEWMAN. All right [indicating].

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, was that car there at the time that Oswald was shot?

Mr. NEWMAN. No; it wasn't.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you see that car moved?

Mr. NEWMAN. I don't recall it being moved. It might possibly have been the car that left here. I do know there was a car over here. I wasn't paying that much attention as to what they were doing. This might possibly have been this car; I don't know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You are not sure where the car that went up the ramp came from, but you did see a car go up the ramp?

Mr. NEWMAN. Uh-huh.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see this car that moved through the line of newsman?

Mr. NEWMAN. Not that I recall. I didn't pay any attention to it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. You have indicated that this car you saw move out, moved out 5 or 10 minutes before the shooting. Now, I know it's awful difficult, we have been here talking, and I frankly haven't any idea how long we have talked. Maybe it is easier to pinpoint the movement of that car in terms of when you heard that pop bottle?

Mr. NEWMAN. All I know, it was sometime between the bottle and the shooting. I would say I can't pinpoint it even within 10 minutes, but I do know it was a short time.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Okay. I will mark this, "Exhibit, Dallas, Texas, W. J. Newman," no; I take that back. I will mark it, but I think it best that we go through this whole thing chronologically. W. J. Newman, 3-25-64, Exhibit 5038. Now, what did you do after the shot was fired?

Mr. NEWMAN. As soon as I heard the shot fired, I ran up into this place [indicating].

Mr. GRIFFIN. I don't think we need to mark it. You stood at the base of the garage ramp?

Mr. NEWMAN. That's right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you do at that point?

Mr. NEWMAN. Well, this officer came up to about--well, opposite me----

Mr. GRIFFIN. To make this, maybe, a little easier, let's take the pencil and you mark where you went to with pencil, and draw a line to it, and then mark where this other fellow went. Why don't you put an arrow, so we know which direction we are moving?

Mr. NEWMAN. (Indicating).

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Do you remember what the name of that officer was?

Mr. NEWMAN. No; I don't.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, what did you do as you got up to that spot?

Mr. NEWMAN. Well, he or I, neither one had anyway of knowing what had happened, other than the fact a shot had been fired, and he said, "Don't let anyone leave." There was a man came at me from this direction, running towards me. I stopped him [indicating].

Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. Was he a newspaper man or what?

Mr. NEWMAN. He later told me he was a member of one of these camera crews.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you do with him when you stopped him?

Mr. NEWMAN. We scuffled a couple of seconds there until he recognized I was a police officer.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you in uniform?

Mr. NEWMAN. Yes. And as I recall, he said, "I am not trying to leave. I will stay with you. I just want to get away from there," or something to that effect. He didn't stand there but for a minute. Then he asked me if he could go back to the crew. I told him he could, but not to try to leave the building. I still didn't know what had happened.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Why would he run off in that direction?

Mr. NEWMAN. I don't know. There was a man crouched behind this column here [indicating]. I assumed, I still do, he was probably just trying to find some place to go. Those columns offered the most protection.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, how long did you remain there after you stopped that man?

Mr. NEWMAN. Until the ambulance arrived.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you describe this man that you stopped?

Mr. NEWMAN. No; I can't.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever learn what TV crew he was from?

Mr. NEWMAN. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, after the ambulance came, did you continue to remain there?

Mr. NEWMAN. I moved up to the base of the Commerce ramp here. There was another officer in plain clothes here--some newsmen tried to follow the ambulance out and we stopped them.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. That was a plain clothes officer, I think you said.

Mr. NEWMAN. I think we stopped him. He showed us his identification and he went on up the ramp. Not more than, oh, 2 or 3 minutes after that, I assume they decided to let these men go where they wanted to. I don't know that for a fact, but at any rate I was sent out on the corner of Main and Harwood to direct traffic. There were quite a few police units coming in from different parts of town.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did you remain out on the corner of Main and Harwood?

Mr. NEWMAN. Not over 10 minutes. A motorcycle officer relieved me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Then what did you do?

Mr. NEWMAN. Then I returned to the assembly room and I was sent out to Parkland.

Mr. GRIFFIN. About what time did you arrive out at Parkland Hospital?

Mr. NEWMAN. I don't know exactly. From what happened, I would say 12:15 to 12:30, but that's just an approximation.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did you remain out there?

Mr. NEWMAN. I was there until about 4:30 in the afternoon.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you talk to anybody out there at Parkland Hospital?

Mr. NEWMAN. I talked to quite a few officers there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where were you stationed at Parkland Hospital?

Mr. NEWMAN. I was right on the entrance where you turn into the hospital off of Harry Hines.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember what police officers you talked to?

Mr. NEWMAN. I don't recall any except Captain Solomon.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, at the time you were out there, did you tell anybody about having seen this man come down the Main Street ramp?

Mr. NEWMAN. No; at the time I didn't place any significance on it, because I still didn't know what happened.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, when you were standing out there, did you hear any discussion about the name of the man who had shot Oswald?

Mr. NEWMAN. Not there. The officer who relieved me on the traffic detail there on the corner asked me if I knew it was Jack Ruby that had done it. That was all he said.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who was that officer that relieved you?

Mr. NEWMAN. I don't know his name.

Mr. GRIFFIN. That was at 4 o'clock?

Mr. NEWMAN. No; it was at--oh, 12:15 or 12:30, on the corner of Harwood and Main.

Mr. GRIFFIN. So, by the time you got to Parkland Hospital, you knew Ruby had shot Oswald?

Mr. NEWMAN. I knew a man named Jack Ruby had shot him. The name didn't mean anything to me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you relieve Officer Vaughn at the Main Street entrance?

Mr. NEWMAN. Right here [indicating].

Mr. GRIFFIN. Oh, you went to Main and Harwood?

Mr. NEWMAN. That's right; I did. On the way back I did spend, oh, maybe 5 minutes here at this entrance [indicating].

Mr. GRIFFIN. You did?

Mr. NEWMAN. Directing traffic.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And was Officer Vaughn there?

Mr. NEWMAN. I don't recall the officer's name.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, when you got out to Parkland Hospital, did you tell anybody out there the name of the person who shot Oswald?

Mr. NEWMAN. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember some of the officers who were out there at Parkland Hospital? By this, I mean reserve officers as well as regular officers?

Mr. NEWMAN. I don't recall anyone by name except Captain Solomon. I haven't been in the reserve long enough to know too many of these men. I know there were 5 reserves--or 4 others and myself, who were transported out there in the squad car.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You don't know any of the reserve officers by name, outside of Solomon?

Mr. NEWMAN. Oh, yes; I know them, but I don't know any of those people.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. Had you ever worked before with any of the reserve officers who were out there?

Mr. NEWMAN. I had gone through school with one of them.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Which one was that?

Mr. NEWMAN. There again, I can't tell you his name.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you describe him?

Mr. NEWMAN. He was--I would know his name if I saw it. Oh, rather tall, I would say about 6'2", wavy black hair, medium built.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Does he wear glasses?

Mr. NEWMAN. I don't think so.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know what he does, where he is employed?

Mr. NEWMAN. No; I don't.

Mr. GRIFFIN. About how old is he?

Mr. NEWMAN. I guess late twenties.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know where he lives?

Mr. NEWMAN. No; I don't.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you see this particular officer out at Parkland Hospital?

Mr. NEWMAN. [Witness nods head.]

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did you see him?

Mr. NEWMAN. He relieved me sometime in the middle of the afternoon so I could go get a cup of coffee.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you talk to him about what had happened down there in the basement?

Mr. NEWMAN. No. The only thing I said, I just relayed to him the instructions I had.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember telling anybody out there about seeing a man coming down the ramp?

Mr. NEWMAN. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you think that you did not tell anybody?

Mr. NEWMAN. I know I didn't.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You know you didn't tell anybody that. When did you first become aware that this might be significant, that you saw this man come down the ramp?

Mr. NEWMAN. When I was interviewed by Lieutenant Revill. It must have been the following Sunday.

Mr. GRIFFIN. After you got off duty at Parkland Hospital, where did you go?

Mr. NEWMAN. I went back to the Police and Courts Building and was assigned on the second floor, security detail.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that where Captain Talbert was?

Mr. NEWMAN. I don't know the gentleman. It was right outside of the city planning office.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Oh. Was this on the second floor of the municipal building?

Mr. NEWMAN. The Police and Courts Building. The city planning or----

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that in the jail part of the building?

Mr. NEWMAN. Yes. On the second floor, just to the right of the elevator, there is some city offices there other than the police department.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that right?

Mr. NEWMAN. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And you were on the elevator, stationed on the elevators there?

Mr. NEWMAN. No; I was at the stairway.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What were you to be doing there at the stairway?

Mr. NEWMAN. My instructions were that no one was to be in there except press, police, and anyone who had a business. There were several civilians who came into the building. I recall one witness who, in accident, he was escorted into where he was going and escorted out.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did you remain there?

Mr. NEWMAN. Until about 8:30 p.m. About 2 hours.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And then where did you go?

Mr. NEWMAN. I was relieved and went home.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now, while you were there, did you talk to Sergeant Dean?

Mr. NEWMAN. Well, no; but I didn't see Sergeant Dean the rest of the day.

Mr. GRIFFIN. At any time before you left duty, did anybody from the police department talk to you about writing a report or anything like that?

Mr. NEWMAN. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, while you were standing around there before you left duty, did you hear any rumors about how Jack Ruby got in the building? What was the first rumor that you heard about how Ruby got in the building?

Mr. NEWMAN. The first I heard was not over 2 weeks ago in an account in a newspaper.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I don't understand. It was not over 2 weeks ago in an account----

Mr. NEWMAN. An article. The first--anything I had heard, rumor or otherwise, as to how he got into the building.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You mean 2 weeks ago from today?

Mr. NEWMAN. During the trial, approximately 2 weeks.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You didn't hear any rumors over television; didn't read any rumors in the newspaper?

Mr. NEWMAN. Well, let me retract that. I do recall a statement that Ruby himself made. I don't remember when it was. It was sometime in the 4 months between the incident and the trial. I think he had boasted how easy it was, or he couldn't have planned it that well, or something.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you take a daily newspaper?

Mr. NEWMAN. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you take any news magazines?

Mr. NEWMAN. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Time?

Mr. NEWMAN. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Life?

Mr. NEWMAN. [Witness shakes head.]

Mr. GRIFFIN. Saturday Evening Post?

Mr. NEWMAN. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Read any magazines?

Mr. NEWMAN. Yes; I read some magazines but no news magazines.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I mean, do you subscribe to any?

Mr. NEWMAN. Yes. American Rifleman and Readers Digest.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Those are the only two magazines you subscribe to?

Mr. NEWMAN. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you take both daily newspapers in town?

Mr. NEWMAN. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you try to keep abreast of the articles on the Ruby killing of Oswald, after this event?

Mr. NEWMAN. I think I read just about every word that was printed.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And you didn't see a single rumor in any newspaper about how he got in?

Mr. NEWMAN. I won't say I didn't see it. I will say I don't recall it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall an article, for example, that was written about Sergeant Dean, where Sergeant Dean said, was quoted as saying he saw a man come down the Main Street ramp; do you recall that article?

Mr. NEWMAN. I don't. The reason I remember so well is because this article I saw 2 weeks ago satisfied my curiosity. I had been curious all that time. I knew from what Lieutenant Leavelle told me, or from the remarks he made, that with the men with him there--he wasn't making the remarks to me, but I think, when I told him about this, he turned to the other men and said, "Well, that's it." That's the only information I heard. The police officers I worked with and so forth had been very shut mouth.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When were you first requested to make a statement or prepare a letter or something of that sort for the use of the police department?

Mr. NEWMAN. It was the following Sunday, the week from the day of--the day Oswald was shot.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you sure of that?

Mr. NEWMAN. First request?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. NEWMAN. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to hand you what I have marked as Newman Exhibit No. 5038. Would you read that over [indicating]?

Mr. NEWMAN. I am going to have to back up.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, this purports to be a copy of a letter which you signed and was addressed to Chief Curry and dated November 26, 1963. Did you prepare that letter?

Mr. NEWMAN. Let me think. The Tuesday night afterwards, Lieutenant Merrell gave me a mimeographed questionnaire for me to complete and return to him and I think I did it right there on the spot. It was a very vague type thing. When I say statement, I am talking about the statement that I did sign the following Sunday, where they had this information that I had given them typed in the form of a statement.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, in this statement you indicated that you saw Lieutenant Stuets and Lieutenant Crowey--Sergeant Crowey, of the reserves in the same area you were in?

Mr. NEWMAN. I saw them that morning. They were not in the same area that I was in. I had seen them in the basement that morning. I don't have any idea where they were at the time. I happen to know now where Sergeant Crowey was, but I found that out later.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When did you see Sergeant Crowey in the basement that morning?

Mr. NEWMAN. That I don't remember. It was sometime before the----

Mr. GRIFFIN. What do you mean by this statement in here that, "Names of other officers in the same area that I can't recollect." What do you mean by the same area?

Mr. NEWMAN. By the same area there I meant the basement proper.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where in the basement do you remember seeing him?

Mr. NEWMAN. I don't recall.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Sergeant Crowey?

Mr. NEWMAN. I don't recall any specific area.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where in the basement area did you recall seeing Stuets? Now, is Lieutenant Stuets or Sergeant Crowey, either one of them, this regular officer that you have got marked here with an "X"?

Mr. NEWMAN. No; I know that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, as far as that is concerned, then, you saw many officers in here who you would remember, whose names you would remember?

Mr. NEWMAN. No. The way I took that question and the way I answered it, those are the only two officers I saw that morning in the basement whose names I did remember.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did they help you search the basement?

Mr. NEWMAN. I don't believe so. They have been searching in another area, but they weren't right with me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see Captain Arnett that day?

Mr. NEWMAN. Let me try to--I know he was there, but I don't think I saw him. I may have seen him after the shooting. There was so much confusion then that I wasn't paying too much attention to who I was seeing.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know of an officer on the police force named Blackie Harrison?

Mr. NEWMAN. No; I don't.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recognize Chief Batchelor when you see him?

Mr. NEWMAN. I don't think I would. I have only seen the gentleman one time.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recognize Captain Butler when you see him?

Mr. NEWMAN. No; I don't.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recognize Captain Jones when you see him?

Mr. NEWMAN. No; I don't know him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recognize Officer Lowery when you see him?

Mr. NEWMAN. I don't know him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know any of the officers in the juvenile bureau?

Mr. NEWMAN. I would know one if I saw him. I don't know him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know Detective Miller in the juvenile bureau?

Mr. NEWMAN. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you recognize the name of this guy in the juvenile bureau, if I gave you his name?

Mr. NEWMAN. No; as far as I know, I have never heard it. I have only been in there, I think, twice.

(Pause.)

Mr. GRIFFIN. You are a d--- l---. I want you to come back tomorrow night and I want you----I want to question you some more.

Mr. NEWMAN. I certainly don't appreciate that accusation. I have given you all I can, to the best of my memory, for 4 months.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I want you to regard yourself as still under the obligation to appear, that you are already under, by virtue of having waived any notice here, and I would like to recess to continue this deposition until 4 o'clock tomorrow afternoon in this office. If you would care to consult with an attorney at that time, or anything like that, and would like to come in here with one, I would be most happy for you to do so.

Mr. NEWMAN. May I ask: What are you getting at?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, frankly, after having sat here for an hour and having listened to this testimony, my own personal opinion, either you are absolutely not telling the truth or plenty of other people who have been in here aren't telling the truth. Somehow I am going to see how the devil we can reconcile these differences.

TESTIMONY OF WILLIAM J. NEWMAN RESUMED

The testimony of William J. Newman was taken at 4:08 p.m., on March 26, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Burt W. Griffin, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. HUBERT. Let the record show that at 4:08, March 26, 1964, the deposition of Mr. W. J. Newman, which was commenced last night with Mr. Burt W. Griffin conducting the investigation, but which was not completed last night, is now being resumed by Leon D. Hubert, Jr., staff member, conducting the deposition.

Mr. Newman, are you willing to continue the deposition at this time?

Mr. NEWMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Will you understand that you are under the same oath that you were yesterday when the deposition began, and all through the deposition?

Mr. NEWMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. And that you regard yourself as being under the same oath?

Mr. NEWMAN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Let the record show, also, that I have been designated by Mr. J. Lee Rankin, General Counsel of the Commission, to take the sworn deposition of Mr. William J. Newman.

Mr. Newman, I simply want to mark for identification so that we will all know what we are talking about certain papers and letters and reports so that we can refer to them by the designation marked on them.

Now, I notice that last night, apparently, the last exhibit number that was used by Mr. Griffin was No. 5038, in connection with a letter dated November 26, or rather it is a copy of a letter dated November 26 addressed to J. E. Curry, Chief of Police, the original of which, apparently, signed W. J. Newman.

Since I do not know what sequence of the letters Mr. Griffin has used since he started your deposition, I am going to number the documents that we will be talking about now by using the same basic number 5038, adding the letters "A", "B", "C", etc., as far as we need to go. Now, in that connection, I am marking an undated statement--an undated document, I beg your pardon, undated document entitled "Statement of Police Reserve Officer William J. Newman." It is also unsigned. And it is to be found in the Commission Document 81-A point 79. For the purpose of identification, I am marking it "Dallas, Tex., March 26, 1964. Exhibits 5038-A. Deposition of W. J. Newman." Sign my name below it. Then for the purposes of identification, also, I am marking a verifax or photostatic copy of "Officer's Memorandum dated December 6, 1963, to Lieutenant Revill, from Detective R. W. Westphal," which document is to be found in Commission Document 81-A point 79. And, I am marking that "Dallas, Tex., March 26, 1964. That's Exhibit 5038-B. Deposition of W. J. Newman," and signing my name below on that document. Then the next document is a letter, or verifax or photostatic copy of a letter, dated December 31, 1963, to J. E. Curry, signed by Jack Revill, and C. C. Wallace, purporting to be a report on an interview by Reserve Officer W. J.--William J. Newman, No. 317, and for the purposes of identification I am marking that document "Dallas, Tex., March 26, 1964. Exhibit No. 5038-C." Continuing your identification, "Dallas, Tex., March 26, 1964, Exhibit 5038-C. Deposition of W. J. Newman." I am signing my name on that document, which is also to be found in Commission Report--Commission Document No. 81-A point 79. Finally, I am marking what purports to be a copy of the report by FBI Agents James C. Kennedy and Leo L. Robertson, concerning an interview with William J. Newman on December 24, 1963, and for identification I am marking that document, "Dallas, Tex., March 26, 1964. Exhibit 5038-D. The deposition of W. J. Newman." And signing my name on that document.

Now, Mr. Newman, you have had an opportunity, I think, to read these various documents there, 5038, then 5038-A, B, C and D.

Mr. NEWMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. The only purpose of asking you to read them and to compare them is to ask you if you can assist us at getting at the facts, and that is all we want to know.

There seems to be some contradiction between them. Maybe there is not. If there isn't and you can show us that there isn't, that is all we want to know. If there is a contradiction, we would like to have your explanation, if we can, as to what is the truth, because that is all we want to know anyhow. If there is a contradiction, it is obvious that one of the statements must be wrong, and all we want to do is tell us which is wrong and which is right. That is the sole purpose of this inquiry.

Mr. NEWMAN. Be happy to; if I can.

Mr. HUBERT. Perhaps I can get at it this way: These reports seem to indicate that you saw a man coming down the ramp. These records also seem to indicate that you saw a man climbing over a rail in the basement. Now, I think we can clarify this situation immediately by asking you, do those reports relate to two different instances?

Mr. NEWMAN. That's correct.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, there was a man climbing over the rail, and there was a man coming down the Main Street ramp, and as far as you know they are two different episodes?

Mr. NEWMAN. Two different things.

Mr. HUBERT. Two different things. All right. We got a lot clarified there. Now, I think the other point is when did each of these happen, and let's take, first of all, the man coming down the ramp.

Mr. NEWMAN. This, as I stated there, was, as near as I can estimate, approximately 1 minute or less prior to the shooting.

Mr. HUBERT. I think you said in your statement that because of the various conditions existing you could not identify the man by name or sight or anything of that sort?

Mr. NEWMAN. No.

Mr. HUBERT. That is to say when he was coming down the ramp?

Mr. NEWMAN. That's correct. I have also--I have never made any estimate.

Mr. HUBERT. No; that's correct. I didn't mean to intimate that you had. It is a fact that a man coming down--that you did see a man coming down, but you really don't know who he is, and that never have known?

Mr. NEWMAN. That's correct.

Mr. HUBERT. You have, of course, seen pictures and so forth of Jack Ruby since?

Mr. NEWMAN. That's right.

Mr. HUBERT. Would you say that the man coming down the ramp was Jack Ruby?

Mr. NEWMAN. No; I wouldn't. By the same token, I wouldn't say that he wasn't.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, you can't say whether he was or wasn't?

Mr. NEWMAN. That's right. I just didn't pay that much attention to it at the time.

Mr. HUBERT. And that was definitely about a minute before the shooting?

Mr. NEWMAN. That's correct.

Mr. HUBERT. So, I think we have that one clarified, so far as that is concerned.

Now, about the man jumping over the rail, what is your best thought about the timing on that?

Mr. NEWMAN. I have none. When I talked to Lieutenant Revill, I think this was Sunday the 1st of December, I guess it would be, and he asked me two or three times whether I had seen a man go over the rail. I couldn't recall anyone. Later, I think it was, oh, two days later, I am not sure, I did remember seeing someone go over that rail, but as I stated in that statement, I cannot, for the life of me, set the time in any figures. Just something that registered, and that was the end of it.

Mr. HUBERT. So, that when you say "it", you couldn't tell whether it was before the shooting or after, you can't tell whether it was a minute before or a minute after, 5 minutes before or 5 minutes after, or for that matter more time before or more time after?

Mr. NEWMAN. Well, I know not longer than 5 or 10 minutes after, because I wasn't there. I couldn't establish it at any time.

Mr. HUBERT. So, that your best recollection right now, today, is simply that you have a recollection of a man going over the rail from the parking area into the ramp.

Mr. NEWMAN. That's right.

Mr. HUBERT. About what part of the ramp was it; do you remember?

Mr. NEWMAN. About midway.

Mr. HUBERT. About midway? But, you don't know?

Mr. NEWMAN. Just----

Mr. HUBERT. The relation of it as to time of the shooting, except that it couldn't have been when you weren't there, obviously.

Mr. NEWMAN. That's right.

Mr. HUBERT. You remember how the man was dressed?

Mr. NEWMAN. No.

Mr. HUBERT. I'll ask you this, too: Do you know whether it was, or was not, or do you have any opinion on whether it was or was not Jack Ruby, or do you have any opinion as to who it was at all?

Mr. NEWMAN. I have no opinion whatsoever. I would like to say in that, since we are talking about this incident, that when I talked to Detective Westphal--was it?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes, sir.

Mr. NEWMAN. Lieutenant Revill was out of town. He didn't indicate to me that he placed any importance on it whatsoever. I was not aware of the fact that he had even written a memo on it. Mr. Griffin, last night, did not bring it up, and I, after talking to him, dropped the subject. Didn't see fit to bring it up, or didn't even remember it.

Mr. HUBERT. What is this undated statement which we have identified as 5038-A, the one that is also unsigned? Do you know anything about that at all?

Mr. NEWMAN. I don't know. I would guess probably that information was taken down at the time I talked to him on the telephone. That is, by and large, the statement I made to him.

Mr. HUBERT. You had called him on the telephone as indicated, in fact, by Exhibit 5038-B, when Westphal reports on it, says, "Subject." That means you, "called this date." Did he ask you when--in other words, he left a call for you, is that correct?

Mr. NEWMAN. Now, I called him.

Mr. HUBERT. You called him to tell him what?

Mr. NEWMAN. Just to give him that information that I had remembered since I talked to him the previous time, because at the time he seemed to think it was fairly important.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, did you go out to Parkland Hospital?

Mr. NEWMAN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you speak to a man, reserve officer by the name of Holly?

Mr. NEWMAN. I don't recall. I spoke to several reserve officers. I can't recall any of them as to who they were.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember telling anyone of them about having seen either of these two men that we just talked about, that is to say, the man coming down the rail, or coming down the ramp, or the man coming over the rail?

Mr. NEWMAN. No, at the time I didn't even recall placing any significance on the fact, because at the time I didn't even know what had happened.

Mr. HUBERT. You don't recall talking to anybody about either of these two episodes, the man going down the ramp and the man jumping over the rail while you were at Parkland that day?

Mr. NEWMAN. No, I didn't.

Mr. HUBERT. I gather from your statement, but I think I had better get it exactly straight, that you did not do anything with respect to either of the two men?

Mr. NEWMAN. No, I had no contact with them.

Mr. HUBERT. I didn't mean that contact, so much as I meant taking some police action.

Mr. NEWMAN. No, that is what I meant too.

Mr. HUBERT. All right. Do you know an officer by the name of Brock? Reserve officer, I believe.

Mr. NEWMAN. No, I don't. I don't recognize the name.

Mr. HUBERT. And one by the name of Worley?

Mr. NEWMAN. No, I don't recognize that name either. I might know him on sight if I see him.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, have you any other comments to make? I think the thing is clarified.

Mr. NEWMAN. No, we had our misunderstanding last night. I didn't know what needed to be clarified. I know I was thoroughly shaky and possibly not too accurate as to the details of what happened in that basement prior to the shooting in the hour or hour and a half, but that wasn't my concern, and I didn't pay too much attention. I just gave it as best I remembered.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, I wasn't at the deposition last night, so I don't know what went on, and I, therefore, will not ask you any further questions.

Have you had any interview with me prior to taking of this deposition today?

Mr. NEWMAN. No.

Mr. HUBERT. All right. I think that is all. Thank you for coming very much.

Mr. NEWMAN. I do have one other thing here that Mr. Griffin seemed to be concerned about last night, in that I couldn't identify a man, a reserve officer I had met in the basement of the garage, or immediately after I got there by name. That that you are holding is a class picture that was made. I can now identify--I have a list of names in my pocket if you want them.

Mr. HUBERT. The only way for it to be of the use would be if you would let me mark the picture and put it in the record.

Mr. NEWMAN. You may have it if you like. I don't know whether it is of any importance or not.

Mr. HUBERT. I don't either, but--do you want it to go in?

Mr. NEWMAN. Not necessarily. I am leaving it up to you.

Mr. HUBERT. As I say, I don't know what the question was last night about identification, and you have brought this matter up; I am perfectly willing to hear what you have to say about it. I think it would be better, if you comment about it, to put it in the record, but on the other hand maybe it wouldn't be necessary. Why don't you say what you have to say about it and then we can judge better?

Mr. NEWMAN. As near as I can recall, when he was questioning me about what officers I had seen in the basement that morning whom I knew, and the subject came up that I had seen one man but I could not remember his name. He asked me at that time for a description of him and I gave it to him. After looking at that picture last night when I got home, and with the list of names I had for the picture, I can now give the man's name, if you would like it.

Mr. HUBERT. Yes; go ahead.

Mr. NEWMAN. Third from the left--second from the left on the back row. Casten, Jerome Casten.

Mr. HUBERT. Jerome Casten. Now, that was the reserve officer that Mr. Griffin was questioning you about last night, and, as I understand it, you testified that you did remember seeing a man, and you gave his description, but at that time you did not know his name?

Mr. NEWMAN. That's correct.

Mr. HUBERT. With the aid of this picture, which as I understand, is a class picture--I see Captain Solomon there, by the way--you identified him as the second man in the top row from the left, and you stated his name to be----

Mr. NEWMAN. Jerome Casten.

Mr. HUBERT. Jerome Casten. I think it would be better if you would allow this to go in. I am, therefore, marking the picture on the reverse side thereof by placing the following on it, to wit: "Dallas, Texas, March 26, 1964. Exhibit 5038-E, deposition of W. J. Newman." Then I am signing my name below that, I am placing an "X" over the man you have identified, and placing my initials next to the "X"; is that correct, sir?

Mr. NEWMAN. That's right. I don't remember seeing that man throughout the rest of the day, and to the best of my knowledge he was assigned somewhere other than the basement quite sometime prior to the shooting.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, in order that the record may show that we were both talking about the same document all the time, I wonder if you would mind placing your name below mine on each one of these?

Mr. NEWMAN. All right, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Thank you very much.

TESTIMONY OF BOBBY G. PATTERSON

The testimony of Bobby G. Patterson was taken at 4:07 p.m., on April 14, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr., assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. HUBERT. This is the deposition of Bobby G. Patterson.

Mr. Patterson, my name is Leon Hubert. I am a member of the advisory staff of the general counsel of the President's Commission.

Under the provisions of Executive Order 11130, dated November 29, 1963, joint resolution of Congress 137, and the rules of procedure adopted by the Commission, in conformance with the Executive order and the joint resolution, I have been authorized to take a sworn deposition from you, Mr. Patterson.

I state to you now that the general nature of the Commission's inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate, and report upon the facts relating to the assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of Lee Harvey Oswald.

In particular as to you, Mr. Patterson, the nature of the inquiry today is to determine what facts you know about the death of Oswald, and any other pertinent facts you may know about the general inquiry, including what you know about what Jack Ruby might have had to do with it.

Mr. Patterson, I think you have appeared here by virtue of an individual request made to you to appear here--was that by a letter?

Mr. PATTERSON. By a letter.

Mr. HUBERT. When was that letter addressed to you by J. Lee Rankin, General Counsel of the Commission--when did you receive it?

Mr. PATTERSON. Monday.

Mr. HUBERT. Yesterday?

Mr. PATTERSON. Sunday.

Mr. HUBERT. Sunday.

Mr. PATTERSON. I came back Sunday.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you have any objection to testifying now?

Mr. PATTERSON. No.

Mr. HUBERT. The reason I say that is that under the rules of the Commission a person is supposed to have a 3-day notice before they can be required to testify, but the rules also provide that you can waive it if you want to. If you are willing to testify and waive the 3 days notice, we can go ahead.

Mr. PATTERSON. I am as willing as he is.

Mr. HUBERT. All right; would you stand up and raise your right hand and I will administer the oath.

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. PATTERSON. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Will you state your name, please, sir?

Mr. PATTERSON. Bobby G. Patterson.

Mr. HUBERT. How old are you, sir?

Mr. PATTERSON. Thirty-three.

Mr. HUBERT. And what is your residence?

Mr. PATTERSON. Mesquite, Tex., 3463 Caracas [spelling] C-a-r-a-c-a-s.

Mr. HUBERT. Your occupation is what?

Mr. PATTERSON. Patrolman, Dallas Police Department.

Mr. HUBERT. How long have you been on the Dallas Police Department?

Mr. PATTERSON. Oh, about 5-1/2 years.

Mr. HUBERT. What did you do before that?

Mr. PATTERSON. I worked for American Beauty Flour Co. down here on South Ervay.

Mr. HUBERT. Mr. Patterson, I have shown you a document which for the purpose of identification I have marked in the right margin the words, "Dallas, Tex., April 14, 1964. Exhibit 5311, Patrolman Bobby G. Patterson," and I have put my name on it, and since it contains a second page, I have put my initials at the bottom of the second page, and I ask you if you have read that document?

Mr. PATTERSON. I have.

Mr. HUBERT. That purports to be a report of an interview of you made by Special Agents Horton and Propst [spelling] P-r-o-p-s-t, on November 30, 1963, does it not; is that correct?

Mr. PATTERSON. I believe it is--I wouldn't say for sure--it was on Saturday, I believe--I don't know when it was.

Mr. HUBERT. In any case, I ask you if you think that this report identified as Exhibit 5311 is a fair report of the interview that you had with the FBI agents?

Mr. PATTERSON. It is a fair report.

Mr. HUBERT. Is there anything that you would like to add or delete or modify with respect to Exhibit 5311?

Mr. PATTERSON. No, that's just about it. As far as the time, now, I don't know about some of the time in my report and every report and stuff like that--I don't know if that makes any difference or not. That is as near as I could get it.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, let me ask you this--you say you are not sure about the times that are stated in this report, Exhibit 5311. I take it that you weren't sure really at the time that they interviewed you; is that correct?

Mr. PATTERSON. Yes--you know, the correct time?

Mr. HUBERT. Well, of course, I note that where this exhibit does mention time, it says "about."

Mr. PATTERSON. Well, that's what I put it, "about."

Mr. HUBERT. You did not know Ruby at all?

Mr. PATTERSON. I did not.

Mr. HUBERT. And you were at the top of the Commerce Street ramp?

Mr. PATTERSON. The ramp; yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. From about 9:30 on--you never left it?

Mr. PATTERSON. I never left it.

Mr. HUBERT. As far as you know, no one unidentified was there?

Mr. PATTERSON. No one without proper identification.

Mr. HUBERT. Tell us what you understood was meant by "proper identification"?

Mr. PATTERSON. Well, he said not to let no one in except police and reporters unless they had proper identification.

Mr. HUBERT. You said they told you--who was that?

Mr. PATTERSON. The sergeant.

Mr. HUBERT. Sergeant Dean?

Mr. PATTERSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, of course, with respect to police, I guess their uniform would establish their identity?

Mr. PATTERSON. No, they have a regular identification.

Mr. HUBERT. And you were instructed to have them show their official identification?

Mr. PATTERSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. You did so?

Mr. PATTERSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. What about the identification of newsmen?

Mr. PATTERSON. Well, the best I could tell, they pulled out all the identification--part of them had pictures of who they worked for, where they lived, some of them didn't have nothing, some of them had stickers and I had to turn one of them back--I did--he come up there in a WRR truck and got out of it but didn't have no identification and he had to go back and get some.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, as far as you were concerned, you were not satisfied if a man just simply had a badge on saying "press"?

Mr. PATTERSON. No.

Mr. HUBERT. You went further and required something that would satisfy you?

Mr. PATTERSON. Yes--anybody can pick up a press badge.

Mr. HUBERT. And you actually turned back some people who claimed to be the press, but you weren't satisfied with their identification?

Mr. PATTERSON. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you require a picture?

Mr. PATTERSON. Some of them had pictures and some of them didn't--some of them had where they lived--on down further who they worked for and what press--and they had cameras on.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, if they had that sort of thing, you figured that that was proper?

Mr. PATTERSON. Well, it's proper identification--you know half of them didn't know they were supposed to have the pictures. Of course, I don't guess the chief or anybody notified them to have pictures like they did down at the county.

Mr. HUBERT. But you considered that the identification you required as to newsmen, when they didn't have a picture, would be such as would satisfy you in normal police work in identifying anybody?

Mr. PATTERSON. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Driver's license and things of that sort?

Mr. PATTERSON. Well, sometimes I would have them show me their driver's license and that on top of their identification too, to make sure that was the same person.

Mr. HUBERT. So, you stayed in that position I guess from about 9:30 until actually----

Mr. PATTERSON. Almost 12 o'clock, I believe.

Mr. HUBERT. After the killing--after the ambulance went through?

Mr. PATTERSON. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Had you been given any instructions as to how the transfer was to take place?

Mr. PATTERSON. All they told me was that he would be transferred by armored car and for me to stay on the right side of it--of the armored car--as it was being backed in, and I stayed there.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, I have previously handed you another document which I have marked for identification by writing on the margin as follows: "Dallas, Texas, April 14, 1964, Exhibit 5312, Deposition of Patrolman Bobby G. Patterson," and I have signed my name below.

Now, I show you that document?

Mr. PATTERSON. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. You have seen it and have read it?

Mr. PATTERSON. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. You consider that it is correct and states the truth?

Mr. PATTERSON. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you have any modifications or adjustments?

Mr. PATTERSON. It is about as true as I could get it.

Mr. HUBERT. No deletions or anything to add?

Mr. PATTERSON. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you know a man by the name of Larry Crafard?

Mr. PATTERSON. Who?

Mr. HUBERT. Larry Crafard or Curtis Laverne Crafard?

Mr. PATTERSON. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you have a telephone, sir?

Mr. PATTERSON. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. What is your telephone number, please?

Mr. PATTERSON. BRoadway 9-0394.

Mr. HUBERT. How long have you had that number?

Mr. PATTERSON. Oh, about--almost a year.

Mr. HUBERT. Are you familiar at all with the telephone number WH-2-5326?

Mr. PATTERSON. No, sir; I never heard tell of it.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know a man by the name of Robert Carl Patterson, also known as Bobby Patterson?

Mr. PATTERSON. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Your middle initial is "G" and that stands for what?

Mr. PATTERSON. Gene [spelling] G-e-n-e.

Mr. HUBERT. So that you are not a person by the name of Robert Carl Patterson?

Mr. PATTERSON. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Have you ever lived at 902 East Waco Street, Dallas?

Mr. PATTERSON. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Mr. Patterson, I am going to show you a page in an exhibit which has been re-marked, "Dallas, Texas, April 14, 1964, Exhibit 5308, Deposition of Andrew Armstrong," on which I have signed my name, and that same group of pages has also been marked Crafard Exhibit No. 5205, in connection with the testimony of another witness?

On one of the pages thereof, I show you the number "WH-2-5326, Bobby [spelling] B-o-b-b-y Patterson." Is that your handwriting?

Mr. PATTERSON. It isn't mine--no.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know anything about that at all?

Mr. PATTERSON. I sure don't--I haven't heard tell of that number.

Mr. HUBERT. Have you been interviewed previous to this time by any member of the Commission's staff?

Mr. PATTERSON. I never have.

Mr. HUBERT. Thank you; that's all.

Mr. PATTERSON. Okay.

TESTIMONY OF RIO S. PIERCE

The testimony of Rio S. Pierce was taken at 11:20 p.m., on March 24, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr., assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. HUBERT. This is the deposition of Lt. Rio S. Pierce, with the Dallas Police Department. Lieutenant Pierce, my name is Leon D. Hubert, Jr. I am a member of the advisory staff of the general counsel on the President's Commission. Under the provisions of the Executive Order No. 11130, dated November 29, 1963, the joint resolution of Congress No. 137, and the rules of procedure adopted by the Commission in conformance with the Executive order and that joint resolution, I have been authorized to take the sworn deposition from you, Lieutenant Pierce. I state to you now that the general nature of the Commission's inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate, and report upon the facts relating to the assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of Lee Harvey Oswald. In particular to you, Lieutenant Pierce, the nature of the inquiry today is to determine what facts you know about the death of Oswald and any other pertinent facts you may know about the general inquiry. Lieutenant Pierce, you have appeared today by virtue of a general request made to Chief Curry by J. Lee Rankin, the General Counsel of the Commission. Under the rules adopted by the Commission you are entitled to have a 3-day written notice prior to the taking of the deposition, but the rules also provide that you may waive that 3-day written notice if you see fit to do so, and I ask you----

Lieutenant PIERCE. I waive that.

Mr. HUBERT. May I ask you to stand and raise your right hand so that you can be sworn? Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Lieutenant PIERCE. I do.

Mr. HUBERT. Will you please state your name?

Lieutenant PIERCE. Rio S. Pierce.

Mr. HUBERT. Age?

Lieutenant PIERCE. Forty.

Mr. HUBERT. Your residence, please?

Lieutenant PIERCE. 3227 South Edgefield.

Mr. HUBERT. What is your occupation?

Lieutenant PIERCE. Police officer, city of Dallas.

Mr. HUBERT. And how long have you been so occupied?

Lieutenant PIERCE. About 17 1/2 years.

Mr. HUBERT. How long have you held the rank of lieutenant?

Lieutenant PIERCE. Four years.

Mr. HUBERT. What were your specific duties and responsibilities on November 24, 1963?

Lieutenant PIERCE. Do you have reference to normal duties, or on this specific day?

Mr. HUBERT. On this specific day.

Lieutenant PIERCE. On this specific day I had instructions to secure the basement of the city hall.

Mr. HUBERT. From whom did you receive those instructions?

Lieutenant PIERCE. From Captain Talbert.

Mr. HUBERT. Is he one of your superior officers?

Lieutenant PIERCE. Yes; captain of the radio patrol, lieutenant commander and----

Mr. HUBERT. What time did he give you those orders, sir?

Lieutenant PIERCE. I would say about 9 to 9:15.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he direct you as to what you were to do in order to secure the basement area?

Lieutenant PIERCE. No, sir; other than securing enough men from the other stations to secure the basement properly and make arrangements for whatever manpower was needed for the transfer.

Mr. HUBERT. All right. Would you state for the record what you actually did in connection with carrying out those orders?

Lieutenant PIERCE. Well, while we were responsible for the routine work of the department, we had to determine what manpower would be pulled on the various substations that we had, and those men were called in to the central station to be used as they were needed. Sergeant Dean was assigned the security of the basement, and he was assisted by Sergeant Putnam, and as I recall, there was a total of about 19 men that were called off their districts to help in this work.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you, yourself, do any of the inspection work, or the searching out work?

Lieutenant PIERCE. No, sir; Sergeant Dean made the assignment of the men, and approximately an hour later, I guess maybe 10:15, I did make an inspection of the basement, and apparently everything had been checked out, and it was considered secure.

Mr. HUBERT. What did your inspection consist of at the time?

Lieutenant PIERCE. Looking over the basement.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you walk around?

Lieutenant PIERCE. Yes, sir; I walked around the basement and checked various entrances to the city hall basement.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know a reserve officer by the name of Brock?