Chapter XXIX: Part 29

Mr. ARCHER. Well, at the beginning of the morning I was performing my regular duties and carrying out my assignments and making my general investigations.

Mr. HUBERT. That is in connection with routine auto thefts?

Mr. ARCHER. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Were you taken from that routine of duties?

Mr. ARCHER. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. By whom, and at what time?

Mr. ARCHER. As I recall, and as near as I can recall, and this is only approximate, about 8:40 a.m., Lieutenant Smart came into our bureau and advised us that Chief Stevenson had asked us to stand by to remain in that bureau, to await further orders, which we did. And I continued carrying on what work I could there in the office concerning my reports.

Mr. HUBERT. So that the first order you got was to remain where you were, not move out, and stand by?

Mr. ARCHER. Not to leave, that's right, and to be there.

Mr. HUBERT. All right. What happened after that?

Mr. ARCHER. Well, as near as I can remember we did stay in the--in the bureau, or at least I did until, oh, I would say approximately 10:50 a.m. And that is only an approximate time because I don't remember looking and seeing the exact time.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, what happened at that time?

Mr. ARCHER. At that time, Lieutenant Smart came in and, of course, we had been aware that the subject, Oswald, would probably be transferred that day.

Mr. HUBERT. What made you aware of this?

Mr. ARCHER. Well, for one thing, just the press itself, and quite a bit in the papers and all. We just had it in our minds that we would. Actually, nobody told me specifically that he would be, but like I say, it was in my mind. I just had that impression.

Mr. HUBERT. So, at approximately 10:50, you received orders from whom, you said?

Mr. ARCHER. Lieutenant Smart.

Mr. HUBERT. To do what?

Mr. ARCHER. He told us to follow him and to go to the basement, which we did. We left our office and walked to the elevators, got in the elevator and then proceeded into the basement.

Mr. HUBERT. Which elevator did you use?

Mr. ARCHER. We used the interior elevator, of which there are two moving from the basement to the fourth floor. It is generally inside the building.

Mr. HUBERT. The public elevator? Not the jail elevator?

Mr. ARCHER. Oh, no, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. You were in uniform?

Mr. ARCHER. No, no, sir; I was in civilian clothes, much as I am right now. White shirt, tie and suit.

Mr. HUBERT. You don't wear uniforms?

Mr. ARCHER. No, sir; I am a plainclothes officer.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, you referred to "we" indicating that there were several of you there. Who were the others? Do you remember?

Mr. ARCHER. I couldn't name you all the officers, I know Detective Clardy and Detective McMillon and Detective Dawson and Lieutenant Smart and myself were on this. We rode down in the same elevator. That's all I recall. There were other officers that eventually gathered in the basement, riding down, that is the only ones that I recall.

Mr. HUBERT. Did that party move as a party as you left the elevator?

Mr. ARCHER. As a group.

Mr. HUBERT. That is what I mean. Where did you move to from the elevator?

Mr. ARCHER. Well, after we got onto the--into the basement--the elevator door was open--now, we got off and walked to in front of the jail office and I believe Lieutenant Smart told us to standby there for further orders. Then he walked away, at that particular time and I stayed standing against the south wall, the south wall which was opposite the jail office.

Mr. HUBERT. Was that outside the----

Mr. ARCHER. Outside the jail office.

Mr. HUBERT. Outside the jail office doors?

Mr. ARCHER. Well, no, sir; it is before you leave the corridor, going into the basement in front of the jail office, but not into the basement entrance.

Mr. HUBERT. I see. How long did you stay there?

Mr. ARCHER. It would be hard for me to say the exact time. In general I'd say about 5, maybe 7 minutes that we stayed there.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, then where did you move to next?

Mr. ARCHER. While standing there in front of the office, Captain Jones came through with Chief Batchelor, passed in front of us, entered the basement and, as I recall, they stood there and had some conversation. I didn't hear the conversation. Couldn't tell you what it consisted of, but after seeing this talking to Chief Batchelor, Captain Jones came back and said, "I want this corridor kept clear," and at the same time he did, the doors opened up. This was the corridor going into the basement in front of the jail office, "I want the corridors kept clear," and he didn't necessarily order me. He indicated--just said, "I want the corridors kept clear," and that is when I took my station on the north side of the jail door, right where the corridor goes into the basement, and also where the jail door opens into the basement where the automobiles are parked.

Mr. HUBERT. Can you tell me about what time it was that you took that station that you just described last?

Mr. ARCHER. May I--my approximate time--oh, sir, I couldn't give you an exact time from the time that would elapse, I would say approximately 11:05, or 11:08 a.m. Like I say, that is only an approximate----

Mr. HUBERT. Let's try to get at it another way. About how long before the shooting did you take that post?

Mr. ARCHER. I would say at least 15 minutes previous. Prior to the shooting.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you leave that position that you have just described in any substantial way? I understand you weren't standing stock still, but substantially, did you remain in that location until the shooting?

Mr. ARCHER. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. HUBERT. I would like you to have a look at this mockup here and at the basement chart which is in conformity with it, and I am identifying this particular basement chart that I am going to ask you to testify about by marking on it, "Dallas, Texas, March 25, 1964. Exhibit 5091. Deposition of Don Ray Archer," is that right?

Mr. ARCHER. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, I am signing my name on it, and for the purpose of identification, I will ask you to put your name below mine.

Mr. ARCHER. All right, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, you--use the mockup first to determine the exact spot that you were standing in at what we'll call your final position.

Mr. ARCHER. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. In which you were approximately 15 minutes before the shooting. I say, using this mockup, I want you to place yourself wherever you were, and relate it to the map or chart, or draw a circle in the spot at which you were. First of all, show to me on the mockup where you were.

Mr. ARCHER. I was at this position right here, sir. In other words, this door--this door here [indicating] had it been open--in fact, it was open. I was helping to hold it open. Right on the corner of this particular--it is not exactly a pillar, but just to the corner of that----

Mr. HUBERT. If I put a circle right here, would that be the spot you are talking about?

Mr. ARCHER. Yes; it would.

Mr. HUBERT. I am making a circle and drawing a line out, and I am writing, "Position of Archer for about 15 minutes prior to the shooting." I am drawing this circle around that legend, and connecting the circle which marks your position with the circle which describes it, is that correct?

Mr. ARCHER. Yes; it is as near correct as I can recall.

Mr. HUBERT. When the party came out, then the doors swung in to you, is that right?

Mr. ARCHER. Sir, as I remember it, when the party came out, now, as near as I can recall, the doors [were] open.

Mr. HUBERT. Opened which way?

Mr. ARCHER. I just couldn't say. I have thought about that, but I don't remember exactly. I'd say--as I was showing you here, I was standing enough to this side to hold this door.

Mr. HUBERT. To hold the----

Mr. ARCHER. This is the door [indicating].

Mr. HUBERT. The corridor door?

Mr. ARCHER. The corridor door, yes, sir; not the jail office door.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember whether the jail office door sort of cornered you?

Mr. ARCHER. No, sir; it couldn't corner me. It didn't interfere with me at all.

Mr. HUBERT. It is a swinging door, isn't it?

Mr. ARCHER. Yes, sir; it is. I am sure--I feel like in my own mind, it was open.

Mr. HUBERT. Swung open into the jail area?

Mr. ARCHER. Swung open into the jail area. In my own mind, as I say, I can't be certain about that point, because I just don't recall.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, I suggest to you that if you had--if it did open the other way, it would have kind of boxed you in.

Mr. ARCHER. I don't believe it did. That is the reason I have it in my mind that it was opened the other way, because I recall no interference from the door whatsoever.

Mr. HUBERT. You don't remember being boxed in?

Mr. ARCHER. I know I wasn't boxed in, no, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Tell us what happened then when the party came down that was transferring Oswald?

Mr. ARCHER. Well, as they brought Oswald down to the basement, now, the first officer that I saw was Captain Fritz. As he started out the jail office door he stopped and paused, and whether he said something to the detectives with Oswald, I don't know. He didn't--motioned to them like for them to wait a second, like I say, I didn't hear any command or any orders given at that time, and then he proceeded to walk out, and I would say probably at that particular point, took about three paces. Then the detectives started out with Oswald.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, as the party moved, they moved away from you, I guess?

Mr. ARCHER. Yes; they did.

Mr. HUBERT. But, they were in your line of vision?

Mr. ARCHER. Yes, sir; they were.

Mr. HUBERT. Tell us what you saw?

Mr. ARCHER. Well, as they passed in front of me, I could see--I could see the detectives on each side of Oswald leading him towards the ramp. The automobile ramp in the basement. Then as they neared the front of the ramp--now, keeping in mind that in this position that I was in, I did have some bright lights shining into my eyes, and that because of these lights it would be hard for me to recognize someone on the opposite side of the ramp. I mean, you know, without focusing my vision directly on them. In other words, I couldn't take a scanning view and possibly recognize just anyone, but as they approached the ramp, just as they reached the edge of the ramp, I caught a figure of a man. The movement first turned my attention to that point. I had been watching Oswald and the detectives, and more to my right, and then I caught the movement of a man, and my first thought was, as I started moving--well, my first thought was that somebody jumped out of the crowd, maybe to take a sock at him. Someone got emotionally upset and jumped out to take a sock at him and I started to move forward, and as I moved forward I saw the man reach Oswald, raise up, and then the shot was fired.

Mr. HUBERT. So you were in motion before the shot was fired?

Mr. ARCHER. Well, I would say just it would be instantaneous. I mean, when I saw the movement I feel like I started moving, too.

Mr. HUBERT. When did you first recognize Ruby?

Mr. ARCHER. I didn't recognize Ruby at all. I didn't know the man personally, and I didn't know his name (nor I didn't even know who admitted the shooting) until following the shooting when they asked him his name and he said, "You all know me, I'm Jack Ruby."

Mr. HUBERT. Was that when he was overpowered?

Mr. ARCHER. That was as we took him back to the jail office after the shooting.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he make any observation or remark or say anything at all before he was moved into the jail office?

Mr. ARCHER. Sir, an instant before I heard the shot, I heard a phrase. Now, I couldn't say what the phrase was and then I definitely----

Mr. HUBERT. You mean you don't know what the phrase was?

Mr. ARCHER. No, sir; I don't know. I couldn't say what the phrase was, because I had not heard, but I did hear the words, "Son-of-a-bitch," and then the shot was fired.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know who said it?

Mr. ARCHER. Yes, sir; I know Ruby said it. I'm positive of that. I was looking right at the man.

Mr. HUBERT. You mean that you didn't hear anything except those four words, "Son-of-a-bitch"?

Mr. ARCHER. That is the only words I could make out.

Mr. HUBERT. And you knew it was coming from him?

Mr. ARCHER. Yes, sir; I thought that it did.

Mr. HUBERT. How far were you from him?

Mr. ARCHER. I would say, at that particular time, I was five, maybe six paces.

Mr. HUBERT. Where did he move from?

Mr. ARCHER. Sir, when I saw him, he was approaching the detectives. It was my first glimpse of it. I, personally, could not say where he moved from. He came out of the crowd, as far as I could tell, because that was all that was around was the press and officers, lining the corridors so far as I knew, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Could he have come up from the area where the television cameras were located?

Mr. ARCHER. Yes, sir; he could have. When he came into my vision, he was already in front of the detectives, and I did not see exactly where he did come from.

Mr. HUBERT. What detective was he in front of?

Mr. ARCHER. Detective--the ones that had Oswald, which would be Mr. Leavelle and Mr. Graves.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know what detectives Ruby passed by in his motion from his prior position to when you saw him?

Mr. ARCHER. No, sir; I--my own personal knowledge, now, well, if you are speaking about that time, I did not; no, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. What you are saying, I think, is that you found out subsequently?

Mr. ARCHER. Yes; subsequently.

Mr. HUBERT. But at the moment, you didn't recognize them?

Mr. ARCHER. At the time if someone had asked me who had been standing there, I couldn't have said, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, then, he was brought into the jail office immediately?

Mr. ARCHER. After the shot was fired, sir, I tried to move forward, but I was cut off by the other officers. The--I started forward, well, the struggle went to my left as I moved forward, individually worked itself way around in back of me, and just as they reached the jail office, well, I took his left arm and assisted them in walking--I went into the jail office with him.

Mr. HUBERT. All right. What happened next?

Mr. ARCHER. After we took him into the jail office?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Mr. ARCHER. After we got the subject into the jail office I still didn't know who he was. Someone asked where the gun was. Now, I had not, up to this point, seen the gun other than just an instant after the shot was fired when I caught sight of this man again, which was Ruby. I didn't see the gun. I was interested in knowing where the gun was, or if he still had the gun and we took him on into the jail office and I assisted in keeping his left arm behind him and someone got his right. I couldn't say who it was that had his other arm. Laid him down on the floor, his head and face were away from me at that particular time. But that is when I said, "Who is he?"

I made that statement, because I didn't know who it was and Ruby then turned his face in my direction. He didn't look directly at me. His face had been turned in this manner [indicating]. He then turned in this manner [indicating], and he--that is when he said, "You all know me, I'm Jack Ruby."

Mr. HUBERT. What happened next in that jail office area?

Mr. ARCHER. When we had the subject on the floor, I was reaching for my handcuffs. I reached back in this manner [indicating] to unhook my handcuffs off my belt, and Detective McMillon was astraddle and over him, over Ruby, and I believe I said, "Mac, do you need my cuffs?"

About that time, "No; I have got it now." And said he placed the cuffs on Ruby.

Mr. HUBERT. What did you do next?

Mr. ARCHER. After he got the cuffs on him, there were still--oh, there was still lots of confusion going on, and several statements were being made or being asked. I don't know. They seemed--some of the statements seemed to come from behind me. I don't know whether it was reporters looking into the jail office or just who it was, but there were some statements made inquiring--several people were asking, "Who is he?" Did he hit him? Did he shoot him? Or things of that nature, as I recall. And he said at that particular point, "I hope I killed the son-of-a-bitch."

I think Captain King was there just a very short time. We began to get--McMillon and I and Detective Clardy, I know the three of us and perhaps one or two other officers, I couldn't say for sure, assisted Ruby to his feet, and we started toward the jail elevator with him, along with Captain King. I believe Captain King said at that point in there somewhere, "Let's get him onto the elevator and take him to the fifth floor jail." So, we then went to the elevator. They put him on the elevator, and I believe that I was either last, or near the last getting on the elevator, and then we proceeded on to the fifth floor jail.

Mr. HUBERT. What did you do when you got up there?

Mr. ARCHER. After we got to the fifth floor jail we took him back to the investigative section of the jail, which is just an open section, not a cell. Just an open section of the jail, and we began to search him for any weapons. We were, at least I was mainly concerned as to whether he had any other weapons on him at all. We stripped him and stripped him of his clothing, and I wasn't interested too much in personal property, but mainly searching for weapons or bombs, or anything else he might have concealed on him.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you find any personal property on him?

Mr. ARCHER. Did I find any personal property on him?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Mr. ARCHER. Yes, sir, I searched him. I did remove some personal property. I recall a large roll of money and perhaps some change. I'm not sure about that. The main thing I remember was the large roll of money.

Mr. HUBERT. What did you do with the property you took from his person?

Mr. ARCHER. We had been there--before I started removing any personal property; well, I searched him by feeling of him, you know, feeling for any weapons first, and then one of the other jailers, uniformed jail officers, Haake, came up and what personal property I took out of his pockets, I handed right over to him. I didn't bother to itemize it or anything else, because that is their job, not ours, and----

Mr. HUBERT. You didn't make an inventory of his property?

Mr. ARCHER. I didn't; no, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. You just handed it over to another man?

Mr. ARCHER. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you talk to Ruby then?

Mr. ARCHER. Yes, sir; we did.

Mr. HUBERT. What did he say?

Mr. ARCHER. During--after we--as I began searching him, making the general search of him, as we were standing there I said--I had seen Oswald on the floor in the jail office after he had been brought in there and I looked at him, and to me he looked like he was dead. Of course, I couldn't say he was dead, but I am saying that to me he looked like he was dead, and I said to Ruby at that time, "Jack I think you killed him," and he just looked at me right straight in the eye and said, "Well, I intended to shoot him three times."

Mr. HUBERT. Did you know Jack Ruby?

Mr. ARCHER. No, sir; I didn't know him. I wouldn't recognize the man if I saw him on the street. I do--I knew of him. I had heard the name before. I did have--I did recollect that he had been handled by the department, but I never arrested him, and I had never seen him.

Mr. HUBERT. But, you knew the name was Jack Ruby, though?

Mr. ARCHER. Sir?

Mr. HUBERT. You knew the name was Jack Ruby, though?

Mr. ARCHER. I didn't know the name was Jack Ruby other than he told me his name was Jack Ruby.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, I am handing two documents, which I'm identifying as follows, to wit: One document apparently is a copy of a statement dated November 27, 1964, addressed to Chief Curry, apparently signed by you, which I am marking, "Dallas, Tex., March 25, 1964. Exhibit No. 5092, deposition of D. R. Archer," I have signed it on the first page, and I have initialed the second page by marking my initials on the lower right-hand corner, and another document which I have marked in the right margin, "Dallas, Tex., March 25, 1964. Exhibit 5093, deposition of D. R. Archer," and I have signed my name below that, and put my initials on the second page, bottom right-hand corner. And I would like you to examine those exhibits, please, and then after you have done so, I wish to ask you some questions about them.

Mr. ARCHER. Now, then----

Mr. HUBERT. Have you read both of them?

Mr. ARCHER. I have read this one [indicating].

Mr. HUBERT. Well----

Mr. ARCHER. You want me to read----

Mr. HUBERT. Yes; read both of them.

Mr. ARCHER. All right. All right, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, you have read the exhibits we have marked 5092 and 5093. Now, I will ask you if those statements contain the truth as you knew it?

Mr. ARCHER. Yes, sir; with one correction here in this statement that is headed by "Federal Bureau of Investigation".

Mr. HUBERT. I think you will find that that is Exhibit 5093.

Mr. ARCHER. 5093, yes, sir. It is not correct when it states that I remained with Ruby until approximately 3 p.m. I believe that that was 3:30 p.m., as stated in my report. As I recall, when I was interviewed by the gentleman, I did say 3:30. Now, like I say, it could be my error, could be theirs, but----

Mr. HUBERT. Were there any omissions from, of fact from those statements?

Mr. ARCHER. Any what, sir?

Mr. HUBERT. Any omissions of fact.

Mr. ARCHER. Well, I didn't go into every detail. There are several statements that I didn't include in this report, and of some of the conversation that took place in the jail and during the time that I was with Ruby, and then some of the statements that were made downstairs. By this, I mean when this investigation was made. I didn't have in mind of any testimony being involved, that it was--more or less an investigation as to how Ruby got into the basement, and what the security breakdown was. That my--that was my impression.

Mr. HUBERT. I think you are relating to the fact that both of those statements omit any statement as to what Ruby told you concerning his intent to kill?

Mr. ARCHER. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, I wish to afford you an opportunity to state why that fact, or those facts were omitted from the statements?

Mr. ARCHER. Well, at the time, I just didn't consider them pertinent to the investigation that was in progress, and I just didn't recall them as important information at the time. And as I explained, it was in my mind that it was an inquiry, more or less, as to where I was and what I was doing, and of an inquiry as to whether there was any negligent on my part in regards to this security breakdown.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you think that the inclusion in these two statements of his phrase "Son-of-a-bitch," was more important than his statement of his intent?

Mr. ARCHER. Sir, at the time, it is like I say, whenever I gave the statements I had in mind as to what I saw at the time of the shooting, and that did take place at the time of the shooting, and I didn't go into great detail as to what took place after we took him into custody, took him upstairs and searched him and all. In other words, I had in mind that if anyone wanted to know about it, well, they would be afforded a chance for me to relate that.

Mr. HUBERT. When, in fact, did they find out that you had this knowledge?

Mr. ARCHER. I don't recall the exact time or day.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you file another report than those we have here?

Mr. ARCHER. I have another report that is the part mental interview which was taken, as I recall, from the date, on November 30th, which was a continuing inquiry as to how Ruby got into the basement of the city hall. I believe that it was taken by Lieutenant McCaghren and Lieutenant C. C. Wallace.

Mr. HUBERT. In that statement you did not mention what Ruby told you concerning his intent either, did you?

Mr. ARCHER. No, sir; I did not at that time.

Mr. HUBERT. When did you first convey that information to anyone at all?

Mr. ARCHER. To Mr. Alexander with the district attorney's office, when he made a court inquiry at the city hall.

Mr. HUBERT. When was that?

Mr. ARCHER. I don't remember the date, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, how long after the shooting?

Mr. ARCHER. I just couldn't say.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, was it before Christmas, for example, or after?

Mr. ARCHER. I don't remember. I do know that Alexander----

Mr. HUBERT. How long before the trial began did you convey this information to anyone?

Mr. ARCHER. I would say approximately 3 weeks. Now, that is just a guess, because I just don't recall the time there.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, tell us the circumstances under which this inquiry was made of you concerning the intent to kill as expressed by him?

Mr. ARCHER. Mr. Alexander made the inquiry in talking to us together, and also individually, as to what we heard that might be pertinent, what might not be pertinent at that time, and I went over and related all that I could recall.

Mr. HUBERT. And that was the first time you mentioned to anyone at all what you had heard Ruby say regarding his intent?

Mr. ARCHER. As far as I recall; yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. And that was about 3 weeks before the beginning of the trial.

Mr. ARCHER. I would say very--approximately. That could vary, because I don't remember the date. I wish I could, but I didn't make any particular note of it. Like I say, at the time, I just didn't take note of it.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, now, do you mean to say to me that you did not regard those two statements made to you by Ruby as being important in a trial of this man for first-degree murder?

Mr. ARCHER. No, sir; I didn't say that I didn't regard them as important. I just say at the time that these statements were made it was in my mind that it was not necessarily a gathering of facts to try the man.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, I gather from your testimony that you didn't convey this information to anybody at all until you were asked to do so in an interview with Mr. Alexander, which, from your testimony, I judge to be approximately the middle of January or afterwards, which is to say, 2 months after the event.

Now, I ask you if you did not think that that information was extremely valuable information in a pending prosecution for first-degree murder?

Mr. ARCHER. I didn't, at the time, give it a thought in the way of prosecution, because in my own mind I didn't feel that a lot of the statements would be admissible. I don't know what would be admissible and what wouldn't.

Mr. HUBERT. It never occurred to you that it was your duty to tell your superior officer, or somebody that you had heard that this man said, "I meant to kill him"?

Mr. ARCHER. No, sir; it didn't. Had they inquired about it, I certainly would have told them.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, have you anything else to say, sir.

Mr. ARCHER. No, sir; not unless there is something more you would like to ask me. If I can relate, or tell you anything, I would be happy to.

Mr. HUBERT. Now you have not been interviewed by any member of the Commission or by me, before, have you? That is to say, a member of the President's Commission, on the assassination?

Mr. ARCHER. Not the President's Commission. I have been interviewed by the Federal Bureau of Investigation, which you know about.

Mr. HUBERT. But no interview by me or any other member of the Commission staff?

Mr. ARCHER. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. This deposition is the first time you have said anything to any member of the Commission staff?

Mr. ARCHER. Yes, sir; so far as I know.

Mr. HUBERT. All right. That's all. Thank you, sir.

TESTIMONY OF BARNARD S. CLARDY

The testimony of Barnard S. Clardy was taken at 2:45 p.m., on March 24, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr., assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. HUBERT. This is the deposition of Detective Barnard (spelling) B-a-r-n-a-r-d?

Mr. CLARDY. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Middle initial S. Clardy. Auto Theft Bureau, Criminal Investigation Division, Police Department of Dallas. Mr. Clardy, my name is Leon D. Hubert. I am a member of the advisory staff of the general counsel of the President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy. Under the provisions of the Executive Order No. 11130 dated November 29, 1963, the joint resolution of Congress Number 137, and the rules of procedure adopted by the Commission in conformance with the Executive order and the joint resolution, I have been authorized to take a sworn deposition from you, Detective Clardy.

I state to you now that the general nature of the Commission's inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate and report upon the facts relating to the assassination of President Kennedy and subsequent violent death of Lee Harvey Oswald. In particular as to you, Detective Clardy, the nature of the inquiry is to determine what facts you know about the death of Oswald and any other pertinent facts that you may know about the general inquiry. Now, Detective Clardy, you appear here today by virtue of a general request made by the general counsel of the staff of the President's Commission, Mr. J. Lee Rankin to Chief Curry. Under the rules adopted by the Commission, you are entitled to a 3-day written notice prior to the taking of this deposition, but those rules also provide that a witness may waive the notice. Now, do you waive this 3-day notice?

Mr. CLARDY. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Very well. Now, will you stand and be sworn, please. Raise your right hand. Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. CLARDY. I do.

Mr. HUBERT. Will you state your full name, please?

Mr. CLARDY. Barnard S. Clardy.

Mr. HUBERT. Your age?

Mr. CLARDY. Thirty-seven.

Mr. HUBERT. Your residence?

Mr. CLARDY. 936 Ferncliff Trail.

Mr. HUBERT. And your occupation?

Mr. CLARDY. Police Detective.

Mr. HUBERT. How long have you been so occupied, sir?

Mr. CLARDY. Since November 5, 1950.

Mr. HUBERT. How long have you been connected with the criminal investigation bureau?

Mr. CLARDY. Since December the 5th, 1955.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, is--who is head of the auto theft bureau?

Mr. CLARDY. Captain Nichols.

Mr. HUBERT. Captain Nichols, and the entire criminal investigation division, of which the auto theft division is a part is headed by Chief Stevenson, is that right, sir?

Mr. CLARDY. Chief Stevenson; yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, Detective Clardy. I'm going to mark three documents as I will indicate, after which I wish to ask you some questions concerning those documents. At first, a document consisting of three pages being, apparently, a copy of a letter dated November 27, 1963, addressed to Chief Curry, the original of which was apparently signed by you, B. S. Clardy? I am marking the first page of that document "Dallas, Tex., March 24, 1964, Exhibit No. 5061. Deposition of Detective B. S. Clardy."

Under which I am signing my name, and I am placing my initials in the right-hand lower corner of the second and third pages of that document. The second document purports to be a report from the FBI concerning an interview with you on November 25, 1963. I am marking that document in the lower right-hand corner as follows: "Dallas, Tex., March 24, 1964. Exhibit No. 5062, Deposition of B. S. Clardy," and I am signing my name and putting my initials on the second page in the lower right-hand corner.

The third document consists of three pages, and purports to be a report of an interview of you on December 3d, by Agents Quigley and Dallman of the FBI. On the first page I am marking as follows, to wit: "Dallas, Tex., March 24, 1964. Exhibit No. 5063. Deposition of B. S. Clardy." Signing my name on the first page, placing my initials on the second and third pages in the lower right-hand corner on each of those pages.

Now, Detective Clardy, I hand you these three documents and--identified as 5061 and 5062 and 5063, and ask you if you have had an opportunity to read those today?

Mr. CLARDY. Yes, sir; I have.

Mr. HUBERT. Do those documents represent substantially the truth of all you know concerning the matter under inquiry this morning--this afternoon?

Mr. CLARDY. Yes, sir; they do. The only thing that I find that I erred on was in the time.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, now----

Mr. CLARDY. On my statement, that the approximate time where I went down was approximately 11 instead of 10, and the approximate time that we brought Mr. Jack Ruby from the jail to Captain Fritz' office was approximately 3:30, instead of 2:30.

Mr. HUBERT. Those corrections you wish to make on the document marked 5061?

Mr. CLARDY. 5061.

Mr. HUBERT. As I understood it, there were two time corrections that you think should be made, is that correct?

Mr. CLARDY. On that document alone, sir. And this was approximately closer to 11 a.m., on this other document.

Mr. HUBERT. Let's see. You wish to make a correction as to the time with reference to Clardy Exhibit No. 5061, to wit, your letter to Chief Curry on November 27th and----

Mr. CLARDY. And on that also. It was approximately 3:30 instead of 2:30.

Mr. HUBERT. Two corrections here.

Mr. CLARDY. Yes, sir; two corrections on that.

Mr. HUBERT. And in the second paragraph of that letter where you name the time as 10 a.m.----

Mr. CLARDY. Approximately; yes.

Mr. HUBERT. As the time at which Lieutenant Smart advised you and other officers to report to the jail office. You now say the time should have been what?

Mr. CLARDY. Should have been 11 a.m.

Mr. HUBERT. Should have been 11 a.m. Do you have another time correction to make?

Mr. CLARDY. Time on the last paragraph there was the time that we brought the prisoner out, Mr. Ruby, to Captain Fritz' office.

Mr. HUBERT. It reads now as "2:30 p.m."?

Mr. CLARDY. It reads 2:30. It should have been approximately 3:30 p.m.

Mr. HUBERT. Should have been 3:30 instead of 2:30. Both of those corrections being as to Clardy Exhibit No. 5061. Did I understand that you might have a correction as to Clardy Exhibit No. 5062?

Mr. CLARDY. Clardy Exhibit No. 5062. This. The second paragraph should have been approximately 11 a.m., instead of 10 a.m.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, your best recollection is that the time that Lieutenant Smart advised you and other officers to go to the city jail office was 11 o'clock rather than 10 o'clock?

Mr. CLARDY. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Have you anything you can tell us that would explain that error in time that you made?

Mr. CLARDY. No, sir; I don't.

Mr. HUBERT. You see, the point I am making is, that on November 27, you stated 10 a.m., apparently in your letter. Then--well, prior to that, on November 25, when you were interviewed by the FBI you told them at 10 o'clock, and do you think that it is simply a mistake in time, or----

Mr. CLARDY. Well, it is a mistake in time on me--on the--on my first report I was under the impression that I told them 11 a.m., which--now, whether I did or not, I don't know, sir, on my first interview.

Mr. HUBERT. Let me call your attention to the fact that on Document 5063, which is the interview on December 3, you also mentioned 10 a.m., apparently. All I am trying to do, Detective Clardy, is to find out why it is that you think it is 11 o'clock now, whereas before on three separate occasions you thought it was 10.

Mr. CLARDY. Sir, I thought I told the agent that I talked to that it was possibly closer to 11 than it was to 10, when I talked to him. To be--just preactly [sic] what time I went down there, I am just judging.

Mr. HUBERT. In any case, your present recollection is definitely----

Mr. CLARDY. That it would have been closer to 11 than it was to 10.

Mr. HUBERT. All right.

Mr. CLARDY. I am definitely sure in my own mind that it was sometime after 10:30.

Mr. HUBERT. Is there anything that causes you to fix that precisely?

Mr. CLARDY. After just thinking, and all the other officers up in the bureau sure that it was closer to 11 than it was to 10, I don't know whether I looked at my watch or whether--on a previous deal, or where I got the 10 o'clock in my mind.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, it is apparent then that you did have 10 o'clock in your mind until when speaking to others you became convinced that you must be wrong and the 11 o'clock is closer to it, is that correct?

Mr. CLARDY. Yes, sir; I am sure it was that. I wasn't any--wasn't in the basement more than 30 minutes.

Mr. HUBERT. Did anyone speak to you and ask you to correct your statement from 10 o'clock to 11 o'clock?

Mr. CLARDY. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. You are doing that on your own volition?

Mr. CLARDY. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. It is because you have become convinced that you are wrong?

Mr. CLARDY. I was wrong on the time, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. You were wrong?

Mr. CLARDY. That 10 o'clock is definitely wrong on time.

Mr. HUBERT. And you are, right now telling us that you are quite certain that it was?

Mr. CLARDY. That it was closer to 11 o'clock than it was to 10.

Mr. HUBERT. That it was closer to 11 than 10. And that the previous statement about 10 o'clock is simply wrong?

Mr. CLARDY. Simply wrong; yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. No one has asked you to change?

Mr. CLARDY. No, sir. That wrong time was my fault, and nobody else's.

Mr. HUBERT. Did anyone speak to you about the wrong time?

Mr. CLARDY. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Haven't done so to this time?

Mr. CLARDY. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, I understand that you were off duty on November 22?

Mr. CLARDY. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. And that you did not participate in reference to the investigation concerning the President's death on November 23?

Mr. CLARDY. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know Jack Ruby?

Mr. CLARDY. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. How long had you known him, and in what way?

Mr. CLARDY. I had known him approximately in the neighborhood of 8 or 9 years.

Mr. HUBERT. In what way? How did you come in contact with him?

Mr. CLARDY. To the best of my recollection I met him when I went into his place of business that he owned on South Ervay in connection with work, when I was working as a patrolman. I say I met him. I didn't meet him at that time. I knew him, knew who he was. I--first time I was ever introduced to him, shook hands with him, was at--after I went into criminal investigation. Possibly in the early part of 1956. I was looking for someone in connection with an auto theft in the vicinity of one of the places that he owned and he had an interest in the Vegas Club. I'm not sure who I was with, or who introduced----

Mr. HUBERT. Could you speak a little louder, please?

Mr. CLARDY. I am not sure who I was with, or who introduced me to him at that time. Then approximately--maybe 6 or 8 months before this come up he stopped me downtown one day and started telling me about a traffic ticket he got. Other than that, I had seen him at a distance and had spoke to him. I had seen him quite frequently when I was working late nights where the B and B Club is, that is on Oak Lawn, close to Lemmon. There is one place of business between the Vegas Club and the B and B, and we would go in there quite frequently when we were working late nights, and I have seen him in there on several occasions.

Mr. HUBERT. Was your acquaintance with him such that you would recognize him immediately upon seeing him?

Mr. CLARDY. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Would you recognize him in that way, whether he had a hat on, or a hat off?

Mr. CLARDY. I know the man well enough if I caught a glimpse of him I should recognize him; yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. All right. Now, I am going to mark a chart of the basement area of the Dallas Police Department, as follows, to wit: "Dallas, Texas, March 24, 1964, Exhibit 5064. Deposition of B. S. Clardy," under which I am signing my name. For the purposes of identification, however, before I move to that, I want to ask you concerning documents 5061, 5062, and 5063, previously identified, which I now hand you again.

Mr. CLARDY. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Ask you if there are any other corrections you wish to make----

Mr. CLARDY. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. With reference to the documents?

Mr. CLARDY. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Does the information contained in those documents represent the truth, so far as you know?

Mr. CLARDY. Yes, sir; I do.

Mr. HUBERT. Any modifications or changes or deletions that you would like to make?

Mr. CLARDY. I don't believe there is, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Anything omitted, that you know of?

Mr. CLARDY. Sir, the only thing that is not in there that I know anything about is possibly some of these people that come in and talk to him after we took him upstairs, which nobody that made any of these investigations asked me about.

Mr. HUBERT. All right. I will get to that later, but with the exception of these omissions that you just mentioned, and to which I will come back at a later time, these documents represent the truth? There is no deletion and nothing more to add other than that other matter we have been talking about?

Mr. CLARDY. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. I'll ask you to put your name under my signature where it appears, and your initials under my initials where they appear on each of the documents. Right there.

Mr. CLARDY. Right under here?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes. Just--now, we'll be using this chart later on, which has been marked 5064, and I have signed it, and I will ask you, for the purposes of identification, to put your signature under mine on that one, too. Now, these documents have been corrected, I understand, that it was simply closer to 10 o'clock than to 11 that you received----

Mr. CLARDY. Closer to 11 than 10.

Mr. HUBERT. I beg your pardon. Closer to 11 than to 10 when you received certain instructions from Lieutenant Smart, is that correct?

Mr. CLARDY. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Were these instructions the first connection that you had with the movement of Oswald?

Mr. CLARDY. We had been told earlier that morning, approximately--come on duty at 7 o'clock, and was--and was told to stay in the office. Now, that----

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, your normal tour began at 7, but you were told to stay in the office?

Mr. CLARDY. Was told to stay in the office, that we would have to move the prisoner.

Mr. HUBERT. Who told you that?

Mr. CLARDY. Lieutenant Smart.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he tell you anything about how the prisoner was going to be moved, or at what time?

Mr. CLARDY. I was under the impression that he didn't know what time or how, hisself, at the time.

Mr. HUBERT. What caused you to form that impression?

Mr. CLARDY. I think we went to get a cup of coffee, and I asked him, and he said, "I don't know."

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, the impression that he didn't know what the plans were, actually came from the statement that he himself actually told you to the effect that he didn't know?

Mr. CLARDY. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, then what happened after?

Mr. CLARDY. Sometime shortly before 11, they told us to report to the basement.

Mr. HUBERT. Smart did?

Mr. CLARDY. Lieutenant Smart.

Mr. HUBERT. Lieutenant Smart.

Mr. CLARDY. Lieutenant Smart, myself, and Detective McMillon, Detective Archer and Detective Watson, and Detective Dawson out of our bureau.

Mr. HUBERT. You moved as a group?

Mr. CLARDY. Uh-huh, all down on the same elevator, and there was some other detectives from the juvenile bureau, I am sure, was on the same elevator. Detective Lowery, Detective "Blackie" Harrison, and possibly some others. Those, I'm sure.

Mr. HUBERT. What instructions were given to you?

Mr. CLARDY. Went to the basement. Lieutenant Smart----

Mr. HUBERT. Speak a little louder.

Mr. CLARDY. Lieutenant Smart is the one, the only one who had any orders as to what he wanted us to do. Said, "Line up along the wall here on each side." and help keep the people back out of the way.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you do that?

Mr. CLARDY. Well, I tried to, sir. Don't look like we done much good.

Mr. HUBERT. I did not mean that to be facetious. I was simply following the line of thought. Then you followed his instructions to line the----

Mr. CLARDY. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, I want you to take a look at this mockup here and show us where you stood, if you did stay in one place, from the time that you got down in the basement area until the shot was fired.

Mr. CLARDY. Let me get lined out here.

Mr. HUBERT. All right.

Mr. CLARDY. I was on this corner to--just to the right of it, most of the time.

Mr. HUBERT. Let's see. That would be here, isn't it? [Indicating.]

Mr. CLARDY. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, you have marked--you have indicated on the mockup here a position which I am now marking by a circle.

Mr. CLARDY. I was just down from the corner.

Mr. HUBERT. This way?

Mr. CLARDY. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, I'll----

Mr. CLARDY. In other words, I was close enough to the corner that I could see around both ways. One occasion, I went and talked to Detective McMillon.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, you took this position, and went over there and came back, and this is where you were at the time of the shooting?

Mr. CLARDY. At the actual shooting, I had moved approximately 3 steps to my right. As they backed this car out, apparently, some reporters tried to come across here [indicating]. And I had stepped up that way, not over--not that far up, sir. I only took 2 or 3 steps. I would say maybe probably as far as from me to you. I had stepped to my right.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, now, I have marked on Exhibit 5064, as a result of what you have stated while looking at the mockup, 2 positions concerning you. One of which I have marked, encircled, "Position of B. S. Clardy prior to shooting," and second one, which is, you say, is approximately 3 feet further towards the Commerce Street entrance.

Mr. CLARDY. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Which was your position at the time of the shot?

Mr. CLARDY. At no time----

Mr. HUBERT. Is that correct?

Mr. CLARDY. Yes, sir; might add something a little further, that at no time other than when I walked across to Detective McMillon do I recall being over 3 feet from that corner in any direction.

Mr. HUBERT. When did you first get to that corner, approximately?

Mr. CLARDY. That would have been approximately 11 o'clock, maybe 10:55. It would have been pretty close.

Mr. HUBERT. So, that from the--from between 10:55 and 11 o'clock you stayed in the position which is marked on Exhibit 5064, that being the position of B. S. Clardy prior to the shooting. You stayed in that position all--within 3 feet of it the whole--during the whole time until Oswald was shot, except on one occasion when you said you went over to talk to Detective McMillon?

Mr. CLARDY. That's right.

Mr. HUBERT. How far did you move, and in what direction did you go?

Mr. CLARDY. Certainly--well, sir; he was across the aisle on the other side.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, would you mark on the map approximately the position of McMillon when you walked over to him?

Mr. CLARDY. Approximately--I walked over to him approximately in here [indicating].

Mr. HUBERT. I am marking a circle, now, and I am putting on there, "Position of McMillon when Clardy walked over," right?

Mr. CLARDY. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Then, did you go back to your original position?

Mr. CLARDY. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. I understand you to say that you stayed there except at the moment of the shooting you were about 3 feet in the direction of Commerce Street from that original basic position?

Mr. CLARDY. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Can you tell us why you moved 3 feet towards Commerce Street, as you say you did?

Mr. CLARDY. The best of my recollection, as they backed the car out, that there was some of the press tried to come in front of the car, and I had to step to my right to watch them, and I stepped to my right and Captain Fritz had come into my view and stepped down to the right and turned slightly to my right, and approximately at that time, I hadn't seen Oswald myself, but approximately at the time I stepped to my right I saw a blur of fast movement and I tried to turn, and heard the shot.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you recognize Ruby then?

Mr. CLARDY. I had not seen him to recognize him; no, sir. Just all--I was turned, moved to the right, and all I could see was a fast blur of movement.

Mr. HUBERT. At any time during this time that you were standing in your original position as marked on the map, or at any time when you went over to see McMillon, or at any time for that matter, whatsoever, did you see Jack Ruby in the crowd?

Mr. CLARDY. No, sir; I did not; and approximately 2 or 3 minutes before the shooting I had looked over the crowd in the basement. Why, I don't know.

Mr. HUBERT. You did, in fact, look over there?