Chapter VI: Part 6

Captain JONES. In the jail office--were they supposed to be in there, and wouldn't it be better, if we could get those people out of the jail office, that it would be easier to watch the prisoner, and so, I don't know the exact words, I used, and they walked around and looked around, and then agreed that it would be. So, he and I, and at least one other officer, and I don't know who he was, but at least one more removed everyone out of the outer part of the jail office to just outside the swinging doors coming from the basement of the city hall going east.

Mr. HUBERT. In the direction----

Captain JONES. In the direction of the driveway, and after getting them out there, not knowing the specific instructions that might have been given I said, "Chief Batchelor, would it be possible to have all this media be placed north of a line from the east corner of the jail office--all right. To move all the news media north of a line formed from the corner of the jail office from the corridor to across the ramp leading down from Main Street, to have all reporters north of that line, and that east of a line running off from this point across the driveway going south down to the exit from the basement parking area."

Mr. HUBERT. All right, I am going to mark, as you have indicated on the map, by making a line starting--with the letter "A" on the corner formed by the intersection of the jail corridor and the basement ramp moving east to a point, "B", which I am marking----

Captain JONES. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Which is the east side of the ramp, and to another point marked "C".

Captain JONES. Well, now, actually, that line would extend all the way up here at that time. I meant to keep them back on those two--and in order----

Mr. HUBERT. Am I correct in what your suggestion was that the news media should be kept north of the line marked A and B?

Captain JONES. That's right.

Mr. HUBERT. And east of the line which runs "B to C," the point "C"?

Captain JONES. I didn't spell it out in those details, but that is the general idea, yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. "B" being the top of the Commerce Street ramp?

Captain JONES. For this reason, that we would have only two sides to watch. The rest of it would be more or less brick wall, and he agreed to that. The officers were stationed previously by other people along these lines, so, I went out there with some of these officers and I don't know how many, and we did get those people back.

Mr. HUBERT. You got them back?

Captain JONES. We got them back fairly well at that time.

Mr. HUBERT. Behind the lines?

Captain JONES. Behind these lines. In fact, there at one time it was completely clear.

Mr. HUBERT. That would have been how long before Oswald came down?

Captain JONES. There again, I couldn't say. It was a matter of a few minutes.

Mr. HUBERT. Can you tell me how many people were in the area that I am marking with a pen, "Area A"?

Captain JONES. I cannot tell you.

Mr. HUBERT. Which is to say, the area north of the line "A", which you recently drew?

Captain JONES. Mr. Hubert, that would be truly a guess on my part along with knowledge obtained later and watching these TV films. Unconsciously, I would have to use that, for I don't have any idea on it.

Mr. HUBERT. Were they standing shoulder to shoulder across the ramp?

Captain JONES. It wasn't when we first pushed them back there, it was possibly six or eight people, and possibly a few more than that including officers. I didn't stop to--told the officers, "Get them back," "get them back."

Mr. HUBERT. Now, I am talking about an area called "B", can you give me any comment as to how many people roughly were in there?

Captain JONES. I couldn't guess. A few minutes later I can tell you there was quite a few people there, but----

Mr. HUBERT. We'll get to there. Suppose we get to that. Now then, at the time Oswald was brought down, can you tell me how many people, roughly, were in Area "A" and Area "B"?

Captain JONES. No, sir; I find myself with figures there that--that I do not know whether they are right or not.

Mr. HUBERT. All right.

Captain JONES. What I would want to say, that I did see several people, and I was up there personally, and I don't know exactly who they were, but I was attempting to push them back at that time. So, we can get to that any minute, but as far as giving you a figure or definite number or something, I couldn't do it with any degree of accuracy.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, sir. Do you know of your own knowledge what procedures were being used for checking people in that whole downstairs or basement area, including the ramp and so forth?

Captain JONES. I know only one instance of--somewhere on the way down there that morning, whether it was up on the third floor or whether--I believe it was off of the elevator, just coming off of the elevator I was asked for an identification.

Mr. HUBERT. You were in civilian clothes?

Captain JONES. I was in civilian clothes, yes, sir. I was asked, and that is the only time. I did not give the instruction. These officers were placed there prior to that, on the outside lines, and I don't know of my own knowledge.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, then, proceed with the chronological sequence.

Captain JONES. The chronological sequence, after getting these people out of the jail office and out of the corridors and driveway to these two points of which we were speaking, then I was somewhere just south of this point marked "B" on the driveway when Chief Stevenson approached me and said, "There has been a change in plan. We are going to put two cars on the driveway and use them." Now, sometime in between there, and I can't tell you the exact time I am aware of a blur of a car going out the wrong way. I didn't see who was in it, and I didn't take too much awareness of it. I don't know just when it was.

Mr. HUBERT. When you say, "going the wrong way----"

Captain JONES. I mean it came out of the basement area and headed up toward Main Street which ordinarily is the down ramp and you go out the ramp going up Commerce Street. There was a car out there, and in light of the investigation I know the circumstances now, but at that time I couldn't tell you about that one which did go out. Chief Stevenson said--came to me just before or after the car pulled out and said--said there was a change in plans, "We are going to put two cars in the driveway and transfer him in a car." Almost immediately some cars started up back in this area [indicating].

Mr. HUBERT. When you say "this area," that is the basement?

Captain JONES. All right, the parking area of the basement, east of the driveway, and I am very sure one car that I saw pull up and go up the Commerce Street ramp from a ways, and I think I am aware of a second car pulling up behind. Now, the second car was having a little difficulty backing down into position to where it would--where it should go, so that when I stepped forward and became aware of quite a mass of people, I couldn't tell you how many in this area "B".

Mr. HUBERT. And you were standing in the west side of the area?

Captain JONES. Yes, sir; the west side of area B, but the east side of the ramp. I was somewhere in there, and I attempted to push the people back, and I'm afraid I may have delayed the driver by pushing these people back, but along about that time someone shouts, "Here he comes."

Mr. HUBERT. Would you just make a little circle as to where approximately you were?

Captain JONES. I think--I think--I think I was somewhere right in this area here [indicating].

Mr. HUBERT. Just put a circle.

Captain JONES. Well, I don't know. That is as close as I can put it.

Mr. HUBERT. You have drawn a circle, and I'm just going to put here, as you said, that it was somewhere around in here, around in the circle that you have drawn and I am marking that "approximate position of Capt. O. A. Jones at the time that Jones heard someone say 'Here he comes,'" is that correct, sir?

Captain JONES. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, actually, there was an automobile, as you say, backing up towards east, right?

Captain JONES. Well----

Mr. HUBERT. But when they begin----

Captain JONES. It would have been backing north attempting to back north.

Mr. HUBERT. Backing north, but with the front of the car facing south?

Captain JONES. Now then; from here is something that was a mystery to me for 2 weeks----

Mr. HUBERT. You didn't answer the question.

Captain JONES. That's true. In the basement area, onto the ramp, heading out towards Commerce, and attempting to back toward north.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, did you say there was something else?

Captain JONES. The police vehicle--car is ahead of me a little bit.

Mr. HUBERT. It is what?

Captain JONES. Ahead of me, backing toward it, and I am probably in the way, and when they shout, "Here he comes," and the line up ahead of me--up toward the Commerce Street ramp, and I know of some officers, Chief Stevenson and Chief Batchelor, uniformed men up at the ramp, but I'm not sure about Captain Talbert. I'm sure, I believe he is ahead of me. Quite a few officers, however, someone yells, "Here he comes," there is a big furor, so then as I turned and looked back into this area "B", there are some people in there which--hands out, looking them, completely. I am looking east.

Mr. HUBERT. You are looking away from the----

Captain JONES. From the approximate point.

Mr. HUBERT. But you are also looking away from the point which Oswald exited?

Captain JONES. That's right. In watching the people, I was aware, in fact, in trying to get them out of the way.

Mr. HUBERT. Would it be correct to say that the televisions were to your left?

Captain JONES. I think so. I mean, that is my impression, and I cannot--I couldn't swear. I can give you the impression to the best of my knowledge, but here is one thing that I know. I am in that area, I think the television is to my left. I turned to make sure the people stay out of way. Some of the previous instructions--can I go back?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Captain JONES. Some of the previous instructions that I had given to this officer here [indicating].

Mr. HUBERT. Here?

Captain JONES. I'm sorry, just outside of the swinging doors leading into the basement of the city hall and just after clearing the jail office of the reporters, just keep the people out of the area. I told both the officers and the newsmen there, "When the prisoner comes down, you will not be allowed in this area. You will not be allowed to step forward to take pictures, or converse with the prisoner."

Mr. HUBERT. You gave that instruction?

Captain JONES. I gave this instruction to them. I can't say to this officer, or to that officer.

Mr. HUBERT. All right.

Captain JONES. Things had changed. First, I was under the impression that the armored car would back all the way down. I didn't know whether it could get all the way down, may do it at some intermediate point. If it comes all the way down there would be a line. That was the--that was where I wanted the officer here coming out of the jail office. The door of the vehicle that opens----

Mr. HUBERT. I say, that was your idea?

Captain JONES. It was my idea, if the transporting vehicle backs all the way to the jail door.

Mr. HUBERT. All right.

Captain JONES. If it comes partially down here and has to stop, which would be somewhere around this area here [indicating], the--just past--just at the point where the ramp starts to rise there is a beam, I believe, or low point in the ceiling there, that if it cannot get to that point these officers in the line here can form an =L=-shaped line around the prisoner, between them and the two sides where the news media had been told to stay and form a buffer in between to walk up there. Then the change--going to put two cars up there. There is no reason why that back car can't get all the way back to the jail office. The original plan would be that the line of officers would be from the jail door to the vehicle. Then they say, "Here he comes," and I am off up here, to the point that I indicated on the map. It is too late to get the people out of the way of the car and form the line. I am aware that Oswald is already coming because of the furor, so, I was trying to keep everybody out of the way and keep the way clear and I heard a shot.

Mr. HUBERT. All right.

Captain JONES. And I place that as to why it is my last awareness of--the back car is ahead of, towards Commerce Street. The prisoner is coming from back here [indicating]. The car is backing like this [indicating]. I am looking at----

Mr. HUBERT. You were looking at the automobile?

Captain JONES. At the automobile. They say, "Here he comes." I turned and these people back this way----

Mr. HUBERT. Looking away from the direction?

Captain JONES. Into this basement parking area. I heard a shot, and I distinctly remember looking over my left shoulder and behind me to the scene of the scuffle.

Mr. HUBERT. What did you see?

Captain JONES. Just mass confusion of people.

Mr. HUBERT. All right; let me ask you this; had you at any time seen Ruby in the basement?

Captain JONES. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. At the time of the shooting, did you see him?

Captain JONES. Not at the moment of the shooting. I was looking out into the basement area, parking area.

Mr. HUBERT. After the shooting, did you see him?

Captain JONES. I did; after he was in custody and on his feet and just prior to them taking him into the jail office.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you recognize him then?

Captain JONES. At that time, after having someone say it was Jack Ruby, then I did recognize him as Jack Ruby.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you hear him say anything?

Captain JONES. No, sir; in fact, I wasn't that close to him.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you have anything more to do with Ruby? Did you see him after that?

Captain JONES. Can I continue on the chronological thing there? I don't believe I did see him----

Mr. HUBERT. Go ahead.

Captain JONES. It will be just about that same thing that after I turned and looking back, and also someone running out to the street, out at the extreme edges of the crowd and all, and that is when I hollered, "Block the exits." Or "bar the exits," or "don't let anybody out." Or--I couldn't tell you the words I used. I shouted over my shoulder and took a few running steps and shouting to the officers, for some of them was running down towards the scene that I yelled, "Block the exits, don't let anybody out." The two or three officers stopped. I couldn't tell you who they are, and then I turned and went back down to the scene or near the scene of the shooting, somebody says, it was Jack Ruby. In fact, it was said more than once. I heard the words--and they got the man standing up. I can see his head and I do recognize in my mind that it is Jack Ruby, but--about to get him in the jail office, shouted to that officer that way, whether he heard me or not, I don't know, but this man here Lieutenant Swain [indicating] was having a lot of difficulty. He was standing between point "B" on the driveway and this circle, approximately. Standing near the television cameras, and having difficulty keeping the television men from getting down in the driveway. So I stopped there and I assisted him in keeping those people back for a few minutes until we can get it cleared up. We get that more or less under control. The people are not trying to force their way in there, and I go into the jail office and see Oswald lying on the floor with a bullet hole in the left side, upper rib cage, it appears to me. His shirt has been pulled up. Whether, at that time Ruby was still in the jail office or had started upstairs, he--it seems to me possibly he was getting on the elevator, but I can't say for sure.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you speak to Ruby at that time?

Captain JONES. I did not speak to Ruby.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you see him?

Captain JONES. There--if that was him getting on the elevator, or if he was in there. After that, no, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, did you have anything to do with the clearing of the basement area at an earlier time?

Captain JONES. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Were you ever told as to what the original route would be from the police department to the county jail?

Captain JONES. I was never told by some officer coming to me and saying, this is the route. As I said, I heard some of the higher ranking officers talking of a possible route, but I was on a long-distance phone call at a desk nearby.

Mr. HUBERT. So, you can say to me now that you really did not know the planned route?

Captain JONES. I was not told, and I do not know for sure what route they were going to take. I was aware of talk and some routing being planned.

Mr. HUBERT. Can you tell us when you first heard that Ruby was supposed to have come down the Main Street ramp?

Captain JONES. I don't remember; I don't understand that question, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Let me put it this way; you have heard since that Ruby claims that he came down the Main Street ramp?

Captain JONES. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember when you first heard that?

Captain JONES. When I first heard that it was probably as a result of me being in charge for the Police Department Committee investigating the operational security about that transfer, and why it broke down, and that heading that committee, I am sure that was passed to me by some of the officers who had talked to him following his arrest.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, later, on the date of the 24th, or could it have been later than that?

Captain JONES. If I heard it prior to that, or heard rumors, the first official knowledge that I do have would have been even following Thanksgiving Day, for that is the time I was called back from the vacation and called from vacation to head that investigation, and it was subsequent to that that we had our investigation.

Mr. HUBERT. So that if you heard anything about Ruby's version of how he got there, it would have been just passed on to you prior to going on your vacation? That is to say, you would have heard it from someone----

Captain JONES. I would have heard it--or put out on the radio or newspapers or some source like that. I could have read that.

Mr. HUBERT. When did you go on vacation?

Captain JONES. I left here----

Mr. HUBERT. That is Dallas?

Captain JONES. I left Dallas about 7:30 on Thanksgiving morning and got back in town at 8 o'clock that night. Drove to Shreveport, spent 4 or 5 hours with my father and ate lunch and came back. They called for me by the time I got there.

Mr. HUBERT. And you were not on the special committee to investigate security until that time?

Captain JONES. When I returned, went to Chief Stevenson's house that night. He told me what they had in mind. I reported for that the morning following Thanksgiving, Friday morning.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, Captain, is there anything else you want to state concerning the facts, in your deposition this morning?

Captain JONES. I can think of no other at this time, Mr. Hubert. I only wish there was some definite facts I could give you, and wish I could have been more definite in my answers, but I can think of no other right now. We have covered the situation pretty thoroughly.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, have you been interviewed by any member of the Commission, other than myself?

Captain JONES. No, sir; I'm sure I haven't. I mean I would remember that.

Mr. HUBERT. I mean, you have been interviewed by me prior to the commencement of this deposition, isn't that correct?

Captain JONES. We went over the details briefly a while ago; yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. And that was this morning?

Captain JONES. That was this morning; yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, can you tell me whether you observed any inconsistencies between the interview that you had with me this morning and your testimony in this deposition?

Captain JONES. I am not aware of any, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Have you provided any material information in that interview with me this morning which has not been talked about in the record of this deposition today?

Captain JONES. I don't know of any, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. I think that is all, sir. Captain, if you have anything else to say----

Captain JONES. I will be happy--if there is anything that I can say that will shed some light on the truth, that's what I want, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Is there anything at all that you haven't said to me, or during the interview, or during any statements that you may have made to anybody which you would like to say now?

Captain JONES. I can think of none--I got--I told you the facts as I know them. The book that the Commission has, has a copy of--has the conclusions that were reached by our Committee, and those are just opinions based on our investigation of it and certainly we do have opinion on it but I have tried to stay away from my opinion, and--I will answer any questions in the future that you or any member of your Commission wants to know.

Mr. HUBERT. Thank you very much. Let me say that if you should think of anything that has been omitted please feel free to call upon me or any member of the Commission staff to convey that information.

Once again I thank you personally and on behalf of the Commission.

Captain JONES. Thank you.

Mr. HUBERT. Just a moment.

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. HUBERT. Let me say that I am recommencing this deposition about a minute after it finished. You are still under the same oath, of course, that you were before.

Captain JONES. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. I think that you did prepare, or it was prepared under your supervision, a chart, or diagram that showed the basement area, and by the use of circles and identifying code showed the positions of individuals.

Captain JONES. Yes, sir; that was prepared under my direction by an officer and places people who were not available to our office in this city, where they were placed by the statements, or statements of people who were nearby and said they were there. That was to the best of our ability to determine where they were at the time.

Mr. HUBERT. As I recall it, that was quite a large chart, wasn't it?

Captain JONES. The original that they made.

Mr. HUBERT. And it showed the positions of people like that by circles in which numbers were----

Captain JONES. Were numbered.

Mr. HUBERT. And I think you used a color as well?

Captain JONES. Color to denote the occupation.

Mr. HUBERT. Whether reserve officers----

Captain JONES. Designated from----

Mr. HUBERT. Newspapermen.

Captain JONES. And those numbers applied to one other, then they applied to the number of the page in the book of the ones they took affidavits from.

Mr. HUBERT. That is to say that these circles with the number in it designating the position of a particular individual, that same number was used to identify his report?

Captain JONES. That's right.

Mr. HUBERT. In your security report?

Captain JONES. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. But note for the record: The report which Captain Jones is referring has been designated as Commission Report No. 81-A. This is a copy of that, isn't it?

Captain JONES. Yes, sir. That is it.

Mr. HUBERT. All right. So, that the chart really is an estimation based upon the persons involved, what they said themselves, and also as to what other people said as to where they were.

Captain JONES. Yes, sir; we were limited as to the miles and distances of contacting some of the witnesses.

Mr. HUBERT. Once again I thank you for appearing.

TESTIMONY OF LT. JACK REVILL

The testimony of Lt. Jack Revill was taken at 9:15 a.m., on March 31, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr., assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. HUBERT. This is the deposition of Lt. Jack Revill [spelling] R-e-v-i-l-l-e.

Lieutenant REVILL. No. No "e."

Mr. HUBERT. No "e"? But two "l's."

Lieutenant REVILL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. My name is Leon Hubert. I am a member of the advisory staff of the general counsel on the President's Commission. Under the provisions of Executive Order No. 11130, dated November 29, 1963, joint resolution of Congress No. 137, in the rules and procedures adopted by the Commission in conformance with the Executive order and joint resolution, I have been authorized to take a sworn deposition from you. I state to you now that the general nature of the Commission's inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate and report upon the facts relating to the assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of Lee Harvey Oswald. In particular as to you, Lieutenant Revill, the nature of the inquiry today is to determine what facts you know about the death of Oswald and any other facts you may know about the general inquiry.

Now, Lieutenant Revill, you have appeared here today by virtue of a general request made to Chief Curry by J. Lee Rankin, who is the general counsel of the Commission. And under the rules of the Commission you are entitled to a 3-day written notice prior to the taking of the deposition, but the rules also provide that a witness may waive that 3-day written notice. Do you wish to do so? Do you wish to waive the 3-day----

Lieutenant REVILL. I will waive it, yes.

Mr. HUBERT. All right. Now, let's swear you.

If you will stand and raise your right hand. Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Lieutenant REVILL. I do.

Mr. HUBERT. State your name, please.

Lieutenant REVILL. My name is Jack Revill.

Mr. HUBERT. Your age?

Lieutenant REVILL. My age is 34 years of age.

Mr. HUBERT. Your residence?

Lieutenant REVILL. My residence is Dallas, Tex., 5617 Meadowick Lane.

Mr. HUBERT. What is your occupation, sir?

Lieutenant REVILL. I'm employed by the Dallas Police Department, lieutenant of the police.

Mr. HUBERT. How long have you been so employed?

Lieutenant REVILL. I have been employed by this police department for a period of 13 years.

Mr. HUBERT. How did you start?

Lieutenant REVILL. I was employed and assigned a patrolman. From there I was promoted to my present rank of lieutenant.

Mr. HUBERT. When did you receive your present rank?

Lieutenant REVILL. June 26, 1958.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, what are your specific functions or duties or assignments within the department?

Lieutenant REVILL. I am presently assigned as section supervisor of criminal intelligence, which is a part of the Special Service Bureau.

Mr. HUBERT. How long have you been in that section?

Lieutenant REVILL. Since February of 1959.

Mr. HUBERT. Who is your immediate superior there?

Lieutenant REVILL. My immediate supervisor is Capt. W. P. Gannaway.

Mr. HUBERT. And then over him?

Lieutenant REVILL. Chief Curry.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, you don't work for any other captain or supervisor?

Lieutenant REVILL. No.

Mr. HUBERT. You report to the Chief himself, I mean, you don't go through Stevenson or Batchelor?

Lieutenant REVILL. Just directly to the Chief.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, I would like you to state briefly, so that we get the full story, just what function you have had with respect to the investigation of the shooting of Oswald. First let me ask you: Were you present when Oswald was shot?

Lieutenant REVILL. No, sir; I was not.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you have anything to do with the transfer of Oswald?

Lieutenant REVILL. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Were you on duty that day?

Lieutenant REVILL. No, sir; later I was, but not the morning of the shooting.

Mr. HUBERT. Not at the time of the shooting?

Lieutenant REVILL. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, then, go ahead and tell us about just what you did with reference to the investigation of this.

Lieutenant REVILL. After Jack Ruby shot Lee Harvey Oswald I was assigned to an investigative committee to determine how and why Jack Ruby gained access to the basement of the city hall. This committee was comprised of myself, Lt. F. I. Cornwall, Lt. P. G. McCaghren, Lt. C. C. Wallace, Capt. O. A. Jones and Inspector Sawyer, and I do not recall his initials, but our function was to interview the people present in the basement on the morning of the shooting, and any other leads that might be developed from these interviews. We were to follow up on these.

Mr. HUBERT. When did the official committee you have just mentioned come into existence and who put it in existence and who gave you your orders?

Lieutenant REVILL. This committee was formed--created at the orders of Chief J. E. Curry. The exact date I do not recall. It was in December.

Mr. HUBERT. All right. Go ahead.

Lieutenant REVILL. As previously stated, our function was to interview these people.

Mr. HUBERT. Had any other interviews of these people been made prior to the commencement of the functions of your committee?

Lieutenant REVILL. Interviews, as such, no. Most of the officers had submitted written reports as to their specific duties on the morning of November 24, 1963.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know when that was done?

Lieutenant REVILL. I presume that it was done on the date of the shooting and immediately thereafter.

Mr. HUBERT. Isn't it a fact, as I recall it, that the individual reports made by every officer who was in the basement more or less followed a form in the sense that they were submitted a list of questions, at least they had to answer that much, and they could, perhaps, go further if they wanted to?

Lieutenant REVILL. I believe the form letter you make reference to was given to the police reserve officers. These are the people that I devoted my efforts toward, the police reserve, but Lieutenant Cornwall and I, our duty was to interview these reserve policemen.

Lieutenant McCaghren, O. A. Jones and Wallace interviewed the sworn officers.

Mr. HUBERT. By the way, where is Cornwall now?

Lieutenant REVILL. He is in Louisville, Ky., at the Southern Police Institute. He left a week ago.

Mr. HUBERT. And I understand that he is going to be there----

Lieutenant REVILL. 3 months.

Mr. HUBERT. 3 months?

Lieutenant REVILL. Now, Lieutenant Cornwall and I were together throughout the existence of this committee.

Mr. HUBERT. Are you familiar with the document entitled, "Investigation of the Operation and Security Involved on the Transfer of Lee Harvey Oswald, on November 24, 1963," which I now show you?

Lieutenant REVILL. Yes, sir; I am.

Mr. HUBERT. Let the record show that I am showing Lieutenant Revill, a document which has been identified as Commission's Report 81-A. Are you familiar with the letter of transmittal of this report dated December 16th, 1963, which is at the first part of the report, and runs for 11 pages, signed by Sawyer, Westbrook, and Jones?

Lieutenant REVILL. Yes, sir; I am.

Mr. HUBERT. I believe that this report, in its very last paragraph, says that you have read it and concur?

Lieutenant REVILL. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Some of the reports in there are actually signed by you?

Lieutenant REVILL. Yes, sir; that's correct.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know an officer, a reserve officer by the name of Mayo?

Lieutenant REVILL. Mayo?

Mr. HUBERT. Lamar Mayo. I think his civilian employment is in--he is an accountant or chief of credit department of Sears, Roebuck here.

Lieutenant REVILL. This is R. L. Mayo?

Mr. HUBERT. It could be R. L. Mayo.

Lieutenant REVILL. I looked here and I found a copy of an interview of a reserve officer, Sgt. R. L. Mayo, signed by myself and Lieutenant Cornwall.

Mr. HUBERT. Lamar W.?

Lieutenant REVILL. We do have an L. W. Mayo. It is possible that we made an error on this up here, the girl----

Mr. HUBERT. It is L. W. Mayo, I think.

Lieutenant REVILL. It will be the same. I was looking at his report, and what we had put in our report about his position or duty assignment and what happened here, they----

Mr. HUBERT. When you say "here," you are talking about----

Lieutenant REVILL. In the report. It is page 70.

Mr. HUBERT. Page 70 of Commission's Document 81-A.

Lieutenant REVILL. What happened, the secretary in typing the report put the wrong initial. She placed R. L. Mayo, and it should read L. W. Mayo.

Mr. HUBERT. I noticed that you are talking about the part of the letter which starts off "Re: interview of Reserve Officer, Sgt. R. L. Mayo, 826," that being a heading on the letter of December 3, 1963, but the next document also numbered page 70, in Commission's Document 81-A, shows that the initial report dated November 26, addressed to Chief Curry is signed, "L. W. Mayo," and it is your thought--that it is an error in the first document which is entitled, "Interview of Reserve Officer, Sgt. R. L. Mayo," and it should have been, "L. W. Mayo.?"

Lieutenant REVILL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. It is your opinion that that is the same person?

Lieutenant REVILL. Yes, sir; this is my opinion.

Mr. HUBERT. I understand that Sergeant Mayo, when he was interviewed by you stated that he had been approached by some individual who was either a minister or posing to be a minister in any case, who was trying to get into the jail through the Commerce Street entrance on November 24, prior to the shooting, stating that he wanted to see Oswald, and that you had told him, well, that wasn't pertinent to your inquiry, and all I want to do is ask you what--if it is true, and just what comment do you have to make on it?

Lieutenant REVILL. I don't recall making that, because it would have been pertinent to my inquiry, because in the reports I make reference to an individual who was on the street trying to get in who was wearing a Whitehouse--a streamer with the words, "Whitehouse Press." This, to me, was pertinent, and this minister--of course, the minister wanted to see Oswald prior to the shooting.

Mr. HUBERT. Yes. In other words, your statement is that you do not recollect that Mayo made such a statement to you?

Lieutenant REVILL. No, sir; he might have made such a statement, but----

Mr. HUBERT. If he did, your thought would be you would have put it in?

Lieutenant REVILL. Yes, sir; because to me it would have been pertinent. Anything.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall his statement to you, Mayo to you, that after the shooting when Mayo was stationed in the Main Street ramp that there was a man who came to Mayo, I think, identified himself as Ruby's roommate, and was trying to get in to see Ruby, that being after the shooting. Do you recall that Mayo reported that during the course of the interview?

Lieutenant REVILL. It seems like I do recall Mayo saying something like that, and I believe he referred this man to Lieutenant Gilmore of the Special Service Bureau. I believe he told me that, but I don't see it here and I don't know why we omitted that, but I think we--I do recall him making such a statement. George Senator, I believe he would have been the individual.

Mr. HUBERT. Yes. He described him as having a slight limp, too, I think he said.

Lieutenant REVILL. This, I don't know.

Mr. HUBERT. But, you do not recall right now why it was not made a part of the interview?

Lieutenant REVILL. Just an oversight on my part. It should have been listed here.

Mr. HUBERT. There is one other thing that Mayo states that he told you, which apparently is not in the report, that is about a man and a woman who had been hanging around the Main Street entrance apparently after the shooting. Apparently they were tourists from Springfield, Ill., and they wanted to take some pictures and stated that to you that----

Lieutenant REVILL. No, sir; he did not state this to me.

Mr. HUBERT. As to that episode, then, you do not recall that that was stated to you?

Lieutenant REVILL. I would say that he did not relate this to me.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, as I see the three episodes then, as to the first one regarding the minister, your thought is that he may have stated to you, but you do not remember?

Lieutenant REVILL. I don't recall.

Mr. HUBERT. Nor do you recall why he omitted it from your report?

Lieutenant REVILL. This might have happened. It was subsequent to this I found a preacher who wanted to talk to Oswald, and he went to Chief Batchelor's office, and----

Mr. HUBERT. When subsequent to what?

Lieutenant REVILL. Subsequent to the shooting.

Mr. HUBERT. Oh, I see.

Lieutenant REVILL. No, prior to the shooting, and subsequently--he was probably talking to--let's see, he arrived at city hall at 9:30. This preacher's name is Ray Rushing. He is an evangelist, Radio Evangelist.

Mr. HUBERT. And that was reported and the man was interviewed?

Lieutenant REVILL. It was not reported because I myself found this man.

Mr. HUBERT. But----

Lieutenant REVILL. There is no report on it, because it is in--it had nothing to do with the shooting. He had gone to Sheriff Decker's office, and Decker referred him to the city thinking that Oswald had not been transferred, so, he came to the city hall and went to the third floor, and--by the way, he rode up on the elevator with Jack Ruby, now----

Mr. HUBERT. This Rushing?

Lieutenant REVILL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Rode to the third floor----

Lieutenant REVILL. Now, he says this.

Mr. HUBERT. Oh, he says this.

Lieutenant REVILL. Yes, for the past 7 weeks I have been assigned to the district attorney's office, the prosecution of Ruby, running down leads and interviewing witnesses and this preacher was one of the people that we located, and he related this story to me, that he rode up on the elevator with Jack Ruby on the morning of November 24. Mr. Wade did not use this man. He didn't need the testimony, because he had placed Ruby there the morning of the shooting.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, Rushing says that he rode up with Ruby on the morning of the 24th, prior to the shooting?

Lieutenant REVILL. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. What was his name?

Lieutenant REVILL. Ray Rushing.

Mr. HUBERT. You don't know how we could reach him?

Lieutenant REVILL. No; he lives in Richardson, Tex.--correction, please--Plano, Tex.

Mr. HUBERT. How do you spell that?

Lieutenant REVILL. P-l-a-n-o, north of Richardson, and at this time he does not have a phone.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you make a report on the interview with him?

Lieutenant REVILL. No, sir; I did not. This was an interview conducted by the--at the district attorney's office in the presence of Assistant District Attorney Alexander.

Mr. HUBERT. Did Rushing say what time that was?

Lieutenant REVILL. 9:30. He was sure of the time, because he had let his wife and family out at the First Baptist Church, and traveled directly to the city hall.

Mr. HUBERT. Was he sure it was Sunday the 24th?

Lieutenant REVILL. Yes, sir; he had gone there to speak to Oswald.

Mr. HUBERT. How did he recognize Ruby? Did he say?

Lieutenant REVILL. He said he recognized him from the newspaper article that appeared that day, and later days.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he say whether he had any conversation with him?

Lieutenant REVILL. He talked about the weather. I asked him.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he say whether he was--whether he saw Ruby there afterwards?

Lieutenant REVILL. He said he turned to the right and--went up to the third floor and after arriving on the third floor, he turned to the right and went to the administrative office and talked to Chief Assistant Batchelor.

Mr. HUBERT. But, anyhow, after you interviewed this man Rushing, you turned over the information concerning your interview to Assistant District Attorney Alexander?

Lieutenant REVILL. What I did is, I interviewed Mr. Rushing one night and asked him if he could come to the district attorney's office and relate this to Mr. Wade. Possibility that the district attorney might use him as a witness, and Alexander was of the opinion that the man might be mistaken. That he saw this as a means of getting publicity. Of course, I disagree with that thinking. I think that the man is truthful in that he is reporting what he thinks he saw.

Mr. HUBERT. When you interviewed him did he give you what you considered a fairly accurate description of Ruby?

Lieutenant REVILL. Yes. Of course, so many photographs had appeared in the newspapers and it would be easy for someone to----

Mr. HUBERT. Where did you interview him?

Lieutenant REVILL. At the district attorney's office.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he give you a specific address in Plano?

Lieutenant REVILL. It is out in the country. It is a box number. I can't----

Mr. HUBERT. What is he? A Baptist minister?

Lieutenant REVILL. He is, yes; I guess he would be. He attends the First Baptist Church. He is one of these Evangelist--that his calling is to dry up the liquor industry, throughout the nation, so they tell me.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he state to you what his purpose was in seeing Oswald?

Lieutenant REVILL. Yes, he felt that Oswald needed spiritual guidance at that time. He was in trouble and he felt like he could possibly help him.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he say whether he got to see Oswald?

Lieutenant REVILL. He did not get to see him.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he say how he got into this building?

Lieutenant REVILL. He walked into the building.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he have any difficulty getting in?

Lieutenant REVILL. Not at that time, no.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he state whether he was stopped and asked for identification by anyone?

Lieutenant REVILL. No, sir; I don't believe he was. At that time, of course, I don't know for sure--I don't know that they were--had the building secured.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, as to the second thing that Mayo told you. To wit, about Ruby's roommate who may or may not be Senator, you do recall that he said that, but you don't know why it was left out of the----

Lieutenant REVILL. It was an oversight. It seems as though I do recall him telling me something about that, and that he referred this man to Lieutenant Gilmore, who was assigned to the special service section.

Mr. HUBERT. The third thing, that man and wife from Springfield, Ill., you have no recollection of that?

Lieutenant REVILL. No, sir; no recollection whatsoever.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall interviewing Pat Dean?

Lieutenant REVILL. Sergeant Dean? No, sir; I did not interview Sergeant Dean.

Mr. HUBERT. Or Archer?

Lieutenant REVILL. No, sir; these interviews were conducted by Lieutenant McCaghren and Wallace. Now, Dean, being a uniformed officer, he might have been interviewed by Captain Westbrook.

Mr. HUBERT. Your function was to find out how Ruby got into the----

Lieutenant REVILL. Basement. This basement; yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. When did you first learn of Ruby's version that he came in the Main Street entrance?

Lieutenant REVILL. When I first learned it? I read it in the newspaper.

Mr. HUBERT. You didn't know it on the 24th?

Lieutenant REVILL. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Of course, actually, you hadn't been assigned the job----

Lieutenant REVILL. No, sir; no, sir. What happened, my people were--the people, the detectives assigned to my unit and myself were assigned to the Trade Mart, where Mr. Kennedy was to speak. Upon hearing of the shooting, three of us, or four of us, went to the Texas School Book Depository and started a systematical search and there were many, many officers present at that time. I made a report to Chief Lumpkin naming all of the officers that I could recall being there. This was on a Friday. The following Saturday, the next day, we were to locate witnesses. People who were employed at the School Book Depository, get them and bring them to Captain Fritz' office. This took all day. Saturday night we terminated and went home approximately 8 o'clock. The next morning none of us were assigned to duty. Now, by that I mean the intelligence unit. I was at home and I saw the shooting on television and from there I got a phone call to report to Mayor Cabell's home, because there had been a threat on his life. I went to Washington with Mr. Cabell that night and got back the next day.

Mr. HUBERT. You haven't, then, spoken to Dean at all about how Ruby got into the basement or how Ruby, says he got into the basement?

Lieutenant REVILL. I am sure I have discussed it with him, but as far as a formal interview; no.

Mr. HUBERT. But, in any case, your first knowledge didn't come from any particular individual, but from the newspaper?

Lieutenant REVILL. Newspaper.

Mr. HUBERT. In your discussion with Dean, do you recall whether he stated to you how he found out about Ruby's alleged entry through the Main Street ramp?

Lieutenant REVILL. No, sir; I do not.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know the reserve officer by the name of Holly?

Lieutenant REVILL. Holly? Yes, sir; I talked to Mr. Holly.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall the nature of the conversation?

Lieutenant REVILL. Yes, sir; I do.

Mr. HUBERT. Would you tell us about it, please?

Lieutenant REVILL. If I may find the report.

Mr. HUBERT. There is an index there.

Lieutenant REVILL. Yes; and they are filed alphabetically. Ordinarily I can find it probably easier this way. Holly, yes, Holly was interviewed and he stated that he had been assigned to a traffic corner and after the shooting occurred he was reassigned to Parkland Hospital, and that while there some unknown police reservist told him that he had observed, or admitted Ruby into the basement of the city hall, and that Ruby had presented press credentials.

Mr. HUBERT. Well----

Lieutenant REVILL. Well, what we did, we have photographs of all of the police reserve, and Holly could not identify anyone as being this officer, or reserve officer.

Mr. HUBERT. Where did this take place, that is to say, where was Holly shown these pictures?

Lieutenant REVILL. In the city hall, in the special services bureau.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you say that when Holly was interviewed he was interviewed by Captain Solomon?

Lieutenant REVILL. Well, Holly was interviewed by Captain Solomon, and both Lieutenant Cornwall and I.

Mr. HUBERT. All at once?

Lieutenant REVILL. No; see what happened, Holly came to us with his story. Well, we jumped on it because there might be something to it, so I called Captain Solomon, who has access to all of the records and photographs of the reserve officers, and he brought them to the special services bureau in the city hall. Holly was unable to identify this officer. We talked to Captain Arnett, who is a reserve captain, and both Solomon and Arnett were of the opinion that Holly might be fabricating this thing.

Mr. HUBERT. Now; what did Holly say----

Lieutenant REVILL. Holly----

Mr. HUBERT. That this reserve officer told him?

Lieutenant REVILL. That he had seen Ruby in the basement of the city hall, and that Ruby had presented press credentials to someone in the basement of the city hall. We were never able to locate this reserve officer.

Mr. HUBERT. Did Holly tell you that a reserve officer, possibly the same one, possibly another, had told him that he had seen Ruby coming down the ramp, Main Street ramp, and just about a minute before the shooting?

Lieutenant REVILL. No, sir; Holly did not say that to me. I found a reserve officer who was present in the basement of the city hall who saw some individual coming down the ramp, the Main Street ramp.

He could not identify this person as being Ruby. As you said, approximately a minute or minute and a half after the shooting--I mean, prior to the shooting. Have you got a----

Mr. HUBERT. I don't want to suggest anything to you, but to assist you, tell me if you don't recognize the name, Officer Newman?

Lieutenant REVILL. I believe that it is Newman. I can show you. You--he was assigned----

Mr. HUBERT. Did you interview Newman?

Lieutenant REVILL. Yes; I did.

Mr. HUBERT. Newman said that he had not recognized Jack Ruby?

Lieutenant REVILL. Yes; he did not recognize the man coming down the ramp, and the distance involved, I can readily see why he could not identify him.

Mr. HUBERT. Did Newman mention to you in your interview that as a matter of fact, there were two people he saw in the basement area. One, a man coming down the ramp about a minute before the shooting, and another person who jumped the rail down there from the parking area into the ramp on the Main Street side, but that he could not identify either?

Lieutenant REVILL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And that, as to the man jumping the rail he didn't know whether it was before the shooting or after.

Lieutenant REVILL. The man that he is making reference to jumping over the rail was an electrician, and this was prior to the shooting.

Mr. HUBERT. Was this Chabot? [Spelling] C-h-a-b-o-t?

Lieutenant REVILL. Tommy Chabot, I believe he is a mechanic.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he, Newman, identify him as such?

Lieutenant REVILL. Newman did not identify him as such, nor did he identify the man running down the ramp.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, I can understand then that when he saw the man running down the ramp he did not know who that was, but did he tell you later he identified that man as being Ruby by comparing him to the pictures?

Lieutenant REVILL. No, sir; he did not.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, when Holly was asked to pick out the reserve officer who had told him what you said he did in the hospital, was Captain Solomon present?

Lieutenant REVILL. Yes; Solomon was present and had brought these photographs to special services bureau, and he was unable to identify any of these people.

Mr. HUBERT. He didn't pick out any picture at all?

Lieutenant REVILL. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. You know, of your own knowledge, whether or not Solomon had another interview with this man?

Lieutenant REVILL. No, sir; I do not.

Mr. HUBERT. Have you ever heard that Holly actually did pick out a picture in an interview with Solomon and state that he thought that was the reserve officer who had spoken to him. Now, apparently that didn't happen when you were present?

Lieutenant REVILL. No, sir; I don't recall this happening in my presence. I do recall, I believe, Holly thinking that a specific officer was the individual that--we interviewed this officer and he was not the one, and I couldn't tell you his name, because we talked to so many of them.

Mr. HUBERT. Then Holly did say that he thought that this might be the individual, and he picked out then a particular picture?