Chapter XVI: Part 16

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I asked somebody what the number was, and I think it was a man on the desk, but it was Goolsby was the one that made the call. I am not sure as to whether he did or not. I know somebody had to look it up in the book what the number was over there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You don't recall whether you made the telephone call or Goolsby made it?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I sure don't.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall where it was you called?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I know where they went. I say I think I do. The Deluxe Diner, right across from the library on Commerce.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you happen to know that?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Because that is where they said they were going. That is what we call the "greasy spoon."

Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you talked to Miller and Harrison about their testimony before the Commission?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you on duty yesterday?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What duty hours are you working now?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I work from 8 to 4.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What are your days off?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. On Tuesdays and Wednesdays.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall what happened? Do you recall Harrison and Miller coming back from the diner?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. No; I know the next time I saw them they were down in the basement.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall anybody coming in and directing you to go down to the basement?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who was that?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Captain O. A. Jones.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What time would you estimate that was?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Well, I believe that was just before 11 o'clock.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How do you fix the time at 11 o'clock?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Well, I know we weren't down there too long, and when they brought Oswald and he was shot, I think it was a little after 11, or 20 minutes after, something like that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall who all went downstairs with you at that time?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I think it was Detective Goolsby, R. L. Lowery, and myself, and I don't remember who else went down. I know we three were together.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall what happened when you got out of the elevator?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Yes; we walked into this little hallway lobby deal right in front of the jail office, and we had to wait there for a while. They had an officer on guard there at the entrance to the hallway.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall who that officer was?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. No, sir; I don't.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, when you left the jail office, who was it you said went down with you? Goolsby, Lowery, and who else?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. That is the only two, is Officer Goolsby, Lowery, and myself.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall where Miller and Harrison were?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. No; I don't. I did see them after that. He came in there, and I asked him where he had been, and he said when he came back from the cafe he went down in the basement, which is our locker room, to get some cigars.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did you see him?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Down in the lobby.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, then, when you congregated outside that jail office, what happened?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Captain Jones came in and told us that we were going to have to form a cordon and keep everybody out except those who are authorized, which was the police officers and the news media.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he tell you anything about what you should do when Oswald came down?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. He said to try to keep everybody back and not to let them get too close to him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You formed along one of the walls; didn't you?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I was at the door where the doors come out of the jail lobby.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Maybe it would be easier if you took this diagram and indicate on the diagram where. Would it be easier to turn it around the other way? Indicate where you were. [Diagram marked Cutchshaw Exhibit No. 5046.]

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. This door is a swinging door, and it was swinging back inside the jail, and I was right here at this.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you put an "X" there?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I was standing right here by the side of the door.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right; now, did you remain there the entire time?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Yes; until after the shooting.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, what did Captain Jones tell you to do at that particular time?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Captain Jones told us what he wanted done, for us to line up the cordons here and block off the doors here, and had officers lined over here, so I just got at that position. He didn't put us at any particular position. So I was over here. And there was a bunch of newsmen in this area in here.

Mr. GRIFFIN. In the jail office?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. In the jail office. And I asked him about those and he said he wanted everybody out there, and we cleared out the jail office except the officers here.

Mr. GRIFFIN. That is behind the desk?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When you cleared out those news people in the jail office, did anybody help you?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Yes; Captain Jones was there. He was right there, and he came in with me, and I believe it was a, I think it was Lieutenant Wiggins that was on duty that morning. I'm not too sure.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How many newspaper people would you estimate were in there?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I would say there were about seven or eight in there at the time.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see where those people went?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Yes; they came out this door and to the left.

Mr. GRIFFIN. The door where you stationed yourself?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did they all go out and turn left as they got out?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. They all turned to the left, and two of them, I don't know who they were, I would recognize them if I say them, came into this area here.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Came behind the double doors?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Came back in from the double doors in front of the jail office window.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you put an "X" on the map where the people were?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I wouldn't know the exact position where they went, but two of them went in here, and one came back out here and stood for a minute. I will put it right in front of this window right here.

Mr. GRIFFIN. One of them went in there and stayed, and the other one went in and came out?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Right; he came out and was standing out here for a moment.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did he go?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. We made him get back of the hallway, and I think I was right about in here.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you put an "N" where that newspaper man was.

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did the remainder of the newspaper people go?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. They went back into this area along there. They got a pipe rail here, and they had officers along, and somewhere in behind these offices along that rail.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, would you place on the map where you recall seeing TV cameras?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Put an "N" or what?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Why don't you draw sort of a rectangle of some sort and write TV. Make it big enough.

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. [Complies.]

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, were there any other TV cameras in the basement, that you recall?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Not right at first, but another one did come in through the door and went down to this position here.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you mark this spot that it went to?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. The last position I saw it in was about in here [indicating].

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long before Oswald came down did that TV camera come out through the double doors and go down to the spot that you have marked in the entrance to the garage?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Oh, about 2 or 3 minutes. Just prior to when they were coming down. It is when they were coming down. It is when they came through the door.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, at any time while you were down there, was there a TV camera along the wall that Lowery was on?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. This one right here that came through here, and Lowery was standing right here.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Put an "L" where Lowery was.

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. And they came through right down by him, down this ramp here.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there ever a TV camera stationed there?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Not that I remember; no.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall if the TV camera which you saw go out into the garage area, came down through the public elevators, or through the jail office elevators?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I didn't see them come down.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he come through the double doors?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. He came through the double doors here, and the service elevator, public elevators over here. They came through here. As far as where they came in, they didn't come out of the jail office.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you clear the newspaper people out of the jail office before or after this TV camera?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. It was before.

Mr. GRIFFIN. After the TV camera came down, where did you station yourself?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I was right back in this door, the same place.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Still there?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Right there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you look out towards the TV cameras from time to time?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Yeah.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, tell us what you saw as you looked out towards the TV cameras?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Mostly saw lights. I mostly saw lights were shining in my eyes here, but there was a line of men along here which consisted of officers and news media.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, do you remember when the armored car came down?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Well, I know when they were trying to back it down, but it couldn't get through.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, do you remember Chief Batchelor being up there by the armored car?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I couldn't see the armored car from where I was.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did you remain in this position that you have marked with an "X" after the TV camera came through?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. You mean how long did I stay there?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Until after the officers and Lee Oswald came through. Then I stepped up maybe one or two steps behind them, and that is when the shot rang out.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see any of the officers here in this area along the Main Street ramp?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Well, I think there was one standing right here, and one right here. But just who they were, I don't know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see any of them up further across the Main Street ramp?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I don't remember seeing any. I know there was a line of men along there, and who they were, I don't know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. From where you were standing, you could see the TV camera going in that direction, couldn't you?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I saw the TV camera over here; yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Could you see from where you were standing any people in front of that TV camera?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. No; not that I can remember except there were people right in here.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you indicate where you saw people congregating over in the area of the entrance to the garage?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. No; I think there were some--I will put a couple of "X's"--I think there were some along there, and there were people right along here [indicating].

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, were you able to see how many lines of people there were along across the Main Street ramp?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see Rio Pierce, the same Pierce car go up the ramp?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see it break through the line of newsmen?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Yes. Did I see a car break through the line?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. All I know, it went up, or when it cleared the way, I know the car did go up, because I don't know how many people----

Mr. GRIFFIN. You didn't actually see the car reach the top of the ramp?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did you lose sight of that car?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. When it went up past this line here.

Mr. GRIFFIN. On November 24, the day that Oswald was shot, you prepared a letter to Chief Curry, and you were also interviewed by Agent Bookhout. Do you remember those two things?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember whether you prepared your letter to Curry before or after you were interviewed by Bookhout?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. It was before.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now, after the shooting, did you go back into the jail office?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You followed Ruby and Oswald back in there?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Well, I helped carry--I had hold of Ruby's left hand up as far as the jail office door. And all of us couldn't get through at the same time, so I released, because there was another man right in front at his shoulder, so I let go so they could get in.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you in the jail office when Ruby was taken upstairs?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Well, I think I was, because I was there at the door keeping other people out--after I got in. Let me put it like this: After we got Ruby on the inside, I slammed the door, too.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did there come a time when you left the jail office?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Yes; there was.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long after Ruby shot Oswald would you say that was?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I imagine it was only a couple of minutes. Just a very short time.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Then where did you go?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I notified this TV camera officer here with two men, I went over to talk to them, because they were trying to push it up this ramp by theirselves, and I do remember seeing three men with that camera at one time, and there was only two men at the time trying to push it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember what TV camera that was? What station?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Channel 5 on the camera box.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you subsequently learned that it was a Dallas channel 5?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Well, I think so, that channel 5. I believe it is a Fort Worth station. It is one of them, got two of them.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What channel is channel 5? What station?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I believe that is a Fort Worth station.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What are the call letters on that?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Man, I don't know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is it in your statement anywhere?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I don't know. I don't think I know the call letters. Just channel 5 is the only thing I saw on the box.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How many men were over at the camera at that time?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. When I was standing at the door, I had it closed, and I looked out and I saw the camera here with only two men.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Why did you go over to the camera?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Because I remember three men being with the camera in this area here.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. Did you have reason to think one of them might be Ruby?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I didn't at the time, because I figured if there were three men pushing it out, why wouldn't there be three men trying to get it up the ramp.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How many did you see get it up the ramp?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Two.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you detain those men?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did anybody assist?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Officer Lowery.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Anybody else?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Not at the time, because we finally got Lieutenant Swain over there and he talked with them awhile, and at that time when he and Lowery had them, or Swain talked to them, we got their names where we would be able to ask information of them later.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who was the first one of the two of you to arrive at the TV cameras? Was it Lowery or was he there when you came up?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How much later did Lowery come up?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. When I got over there and this one, I don't know what the names are, I think this one that had the coat on was Alexander, as well as I can remember. He was kind of nervous and shaky. So, then I called Lowery to help me out, because I didn't know whether they might be involved or not.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember where Lowery was standing when you called him over?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I believe he was right over in this area. I am not too sure, but I think he was, because I could see him from here.

Mr. GRIFFIN. The point you are talking about is in front of the double doors?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Between the double doors and the driveway close to, I call that the north wall.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, at the time Lowery arrived, was Lieutenant Swain there?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How much longer would you say after Lowery arrived did Lieutenant Swain?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Well, in the process after I got Lowery over there and we were holding them, we tried to stop two or three officers prior to that, supervisory officers, and they were in a hustle trying to get around, and they finally got Swain, and I think it was maybe 5 or 6 minutes after Lowery got there, and they got Lieutenant Swain to come over and talk to them. Not to talk, but for us to have a conference as to what to do about it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, how long did you talk with Lieutenant Swain?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Well, I imagine it was about 3 or 4 minutes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you and Lowery turn the two TV men over to Lieutenant Swain?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. When I got the names and everything, Lowery started getting their names and I left.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Lowery take the names down in a notebook?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. He took the names and he turned them over to the homicide office.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You left, and where did you go?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I came back upstairs to my office.

Mr. GRIFFIN. On the third floor?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Room 314.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you do when you got up to the juvenile bureau?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I waited up there until further information.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did you wait?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Man, I don't know. We was up there for quite a while.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you eventually go out to Love Field?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, before you went out to Love Field, did you prepare a report of what had happened down in the basement?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. No, sir; that is where I went, I am sorry. I am getting confused, but when I left the basement, I talked to somebody downstairs about it, and I think that was Captain Jones, and he said, "Well, go upstairs and write out your report, whatever you know, or what you saw." And I went to the homicide bureau first and made out my report in written letter form that you have, and gave it to the homicide office up there, and then I went to my room, which is room 314.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, so at the time you prepared this letter dated--let me ask you this: Let me hand you Exhibit 5043. Is that a true and accurate copy of a report that you wrote out in the homicide bureau?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Let me take a minute here [reading report]. You mean word for word?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me ask you this: I notice you pulled out a set of papers from your pocket. You have a copy of the actual report you prepared?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Yes; I have a copy which is one of the Xerox copies of the report which I wrote.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you mind if we made a photocopy of that? And retain it for our files?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. No, sir; I don't. In fact, it looks like--that is my handwritten copy. I don't know whether you can read it or not.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, I think I can make out your handwriting here. I am referring now to the copy of the handwritten report which Detective Crenshaw prepared on November 24, 1963, in the homicide bureau office. Approximately how long after Ruby shot Oswald?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. About 20 minutes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Could it have been longer than that?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. It could have been longer, but it was approximately 20 minutes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Could it have been as long as 2 hours later?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I think it was that long. It might have been the way things were, but I remember when I left the basement, I did go upstairs, and I did go to the homicide office and that is where I wrote the report.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you go up to homicide because somebody in the basement told you to go up and write a report on what you saw?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who was that?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Captain Jones. I know he told me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right.

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. And there was a standing order to put it down in writing what you saw and what you did.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was this after everything had been quieted down in the basement?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Yes; well, now, I am losing track of my time again.

Mr. GRIFFIN. It is important that we try to straighten this out.

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Let's see. I will have to retract some of them. I don't want to state it that way. But so far as what I have said, it is true, but as far as my time element is concerned, when I left, I had to go up to the first floor, and I kept seeing people coming in and out.

We have three entrances. The Harwood, Main and Commerce, and I think there was four of us which were taking names of people coming in and leaving, and checking their identification.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Which entrance was it you were at?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I was checking the Commerce side. I was inside the building close to the information desk, but checking those coming in and leaving the Commerce Street entrance to the building. So it might have been about 2 hours after, because I know I was down there for quite awhile.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When you were at the Commerce Street side, were you at the door going out of the building?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. No; I was in the hallway close to the entrance of the hallway.

Mr. GRIFFIN. As you said before, closer to the information desk?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Closer to the information where the hallway is in front of the desk.

Mr. GRIFFIN. That is on the first floor and not in the basement?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Right. It is on the first floor.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall who was up there with you taking names?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. No; I don't.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was Lowery there?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. No; I don't think so.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was Harrison there?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I don't think he was there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Anybody from the juvenile bureau there?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I was the only one from the juvenile. There was about four or five officers, two at the desk and one at the Harwood side there, checking those, and one on the other side of the desk checking those coming from the Main Street, and I was on Commerce Street.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you tell any of the people up there what you had seen?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. No; not that I can remember. You mean what I saw down in the basement?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; about your suspicion about those guys pushing the camera.

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, were you taken off that duty by anybody?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Yes. Lieutenant came down and told us it was all right to secure, that everything was settled down, and that is when I left and went up to the homicide office and wrote my report.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When did you get the instructions to write a report on this?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Down in the basement.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Before you got stationed?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Before I had to go upstairs: yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, at the time Captain Jones gave you those instructions down there, had the basement sort of quieted down?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he give instructions to a bunch of you standing in a group, or were you all spread out, or how did it happen?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I think there were two or three of us there, and I asked about it, and told him, and he said, "The information is good," but he said, "Put it down in writing so you will be able to refer to it later."

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who else was there at the time?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I don't remember who all was there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. So, now, on the basis of what you told us, what would be your best estimate of how long it was after you saw this cameraman come through that you wrote this report? And when I say on the basis of what you said, I don't mean that I want you to conform to anything you have said, but taking into account all the discussion we have had now, what is your best judgment as to how long it was?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. About an hour and a half or 2 hours.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, when you took the names of the two men you found at the camera----

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I didn't take the names.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Lowery took those names?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How were those two men dressed?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. One of them had on a long black coat. One of these kind of, like a raincoat--topcoat combination deal, and the other one, best I can remember, had on a greenish shirt and khaki trousers.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where had those two men, as you recall, where had they been on the camera as it was being pushed through?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. You mean where? How were they positioned there?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where was the man in the black coat?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. The man in the black coat was on the left side of the camera, and the other one was on the right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. There was one man in between?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. As far as I can remember, yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you discuss that man with those people that you and Lowery confronted?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. You mean the two men at the camera?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ask them where the third man was?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I asked them where the third man was who had helped them with the camera, and they told me they didn't know there was any third man there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ask those men where that camera had been before it came through the double doors?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you subsequently learned where it was before it came through the double doors?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Yes. I heard it had been up on the third floor, and that they were bringing it down because it had the telescopic lens, and they were wanting to get a shot taking Oswald up the ramp to the armored car.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you learn the names of the two men that you talked with out at that camera?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I have not since then, no. At the time, I thought one was named John Alexander, but I don't know what their names are.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When Lowery saw you questioning those two men, do you recall if Lowery at that time remembered that there had been a third man on the camera?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Well, when I called him over there, I told him what I had, and he said, "Yes, he remembered a third man being with them."

Mr. GRIFFIN. But Lowery came over at your beckoning?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Lowery did not come over spontaneously?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When you arrived up in the homicide office to write your report, who was there?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Lowery was there, and there was some officers from the homicide bureau there, and Captain Fritz was in his office, and I think there was a Secret Service man there with him. I don't know what his name was. I was told it was a Secret Service man.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know L. D. Montgomery?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. You mean the detective?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall whether he was there?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I don't recall whether he was or not.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was Blackie Harrison there when you arrived?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I think he was there in the office. I believe he was in there, and there was Lieutenant Wallace. I just don't remember who else was there. I know the place was full.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who else was there? Let me ask you--I want to ask you here to speculate a little bit but at the same time to give me an honest opinion on this.

You have had a chance to talk with many police officers, I presume, about all the events that took place, and you know of all the rumors that there have been about the man walking down the Main Street ramp and so forth and so on.

Do you still feel--can you tell me whether or not you still have a belief that Jack Ruby might have been the man who pushed that camera in, in your own mind?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Well, in my own mind, I can tell you this: I did see the third man with the camera, and it struck me so strange that only two men--there were three men, but still only two were trying to push the camera, and that is the reason I went out and contacted the two men.

Let me tell you, I did learn from Lieutenant Wallace--that is one of the investigators on the thing for the city--one of you might have talked with him--that you contacted the crews on this camera--and he did say that a man that was with these cameras over here that at about--see, there is a slight decline in this area right here where Lowery was.

Mr. GRIFFIN. There was a decline where Lowery was standing?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. At the time that that camera was being pushed, a man came from this crew over here and helped them push it on down. If there is where I got the three men, but I do remember seeing three men on that camera.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And, in other words, somebody came over to the two-man crew?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Off one of these cameras here. Channel 5 already had one camera down here, but they said--that is where I got the reason for this--they brought the wide angle lens and they wanted one of the telescopic lens to get a shot of him walking up the ramp to where the armored car was. But still I did see three men pushing that camera through here.

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let's put this on the record. Now, as I understand the story that you heard was that a man came from the two TV cameras, from the channel 5 camera that was already stationed behind a railing?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. All right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And came off and assisted two other men who had already been pushing that camera through the door, and that man reached the camera at approximately when that camera was near Lowery?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. That is what I was told, what I heard.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, if that were true, do you think as you look at--out in the area toward where Lowery and that camera would have been at that point, that you would have seen a man walk over there to that camera?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. If I had been looking there at that time, I could have; yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now, what I am getting at is, the area that was in front of those two stationery TV cameras was clear, wasn't it?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Yes; because the cameras and lights were right here. And they had lights up here shining in here.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Now, the camera came this route here through these swinging doors.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see it come through the swinging doors?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Yes; I saw it coming through the swinging doors because these doors came open and they come through, and I was standing right here. I wasn't right exactly at the corner door, but I was in the doorway at the time.

I held one of the doors open when they came through, and the camera came right on down here and was parked in this area.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You are indicating on the chart that it was pushed through the swinging doors where Lowery was stationed and over to the point that you have marked it as the final resting place in the garage entrance?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. That is where I saw it; yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You have also been told that this same channel 5 had some other new camera behind the railing?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, in front of that railing, was that area in front of the railing clear of people at the time that that camera came through?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I don't remember whether it was exactly clear or not. I know that right after the camera came through, that these men down here started hollering to everyone to clear back. Evidently some were standing in front of the cameras down there and that is why they had to clear them out.

So far as I remember, most of the people were standing here, and in front of the door, and on the south side of the hallway into the ramp, and on the north side of the hallway, and into the ramp there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, this guy you say had on a dark suit?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall if he had on a hat?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I do not, because the man I saw was bent over pushing like that [indicating]. All three is what struck me strange that all three of them, not one was putting all his weight, but all three were bent over pushing like that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. At the time that you ran for those TV cameras after the shooting, did you know that Jack Ruby had been the person who shot Oswald?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I knew that. I helped carry the man through the jail office doors to the jail office, and while I was there standing guard on the doors, someone said who is he, and a guy said it is Jack Ruby. And I was standing in the door when a doctor came in right after we got Ruby in there and they brought Oswald, and immediately thereafter, someone was banging on the door trying to get through, and I tried to push him out, and he said he was a doctor, and that he had been called. And I run my hand down his side and he had the stethoscope in his right hand coat pocket, and I let him through.

Mr. GRIFFIN. So, by the time you ran to the TV cameras, you knew that Ruby was the man?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I knew that Ruby was the man. They said he was Jack Ruby.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, if you had seen the third man after it reached, or as it reached Lowery, do you think you would have seen that man move from the TV cameras to the channel 5 camera that was stationed behind the railing? Do you think you would have seen him move from there to the position of the camera?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Well, let me put it this way: I didn't just watch this camera all the way through, because it done past this point, and the next time I saw it, I remember seeing it when I was looking through the square glass in the door when I was holding it to, and I saw the two men push it up here.

So, I don't know whether I was looking at the camera at the time I was down here, but I didn't see anyone go around to the camera.

Mr. GRIFFIN. At the time that the TV camera came through the door, the double doors, you were looking through another glass?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. No; now at the time it came through the door, this door was being opened from the inside.

Mr. GRIFFIN. This single door that entered into the jail office opened inward toward the jail office, and it didn't obstruct your view?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. No; they came through the swinging door. I was standing in the doorway and I held this door open.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You held open the swinging doors for them?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Right; when they came through.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You pulled it back toward yourself?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. They were already going past, and I grabbed ahold.

Mr. GRIFFIN. So, the swinging doors were between you, your face and them?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. No; I was standing at the edge of this swinging door holding it back for them.

Mr. GRIFFIN. So, you were behind the swinging doors when you were holding the end of the swinging door, and you were off to the side?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And there was nothing on part of that door which was between you and them?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How far away would you say you were from those men at that point?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. About 3 feet. Maybe 2, or I could have reached out and put my hand on one of them.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Could you see the faces of those men?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. The one on the left, the one that had on a black coat, when he came through, he looked up like that and he was pushing on through.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When you ultimately met over there, you confronted those men afterward and saw the man in the black coat, was it the same man that turned up and looked at you?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is there any question in your mind about that?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. No; I remember his nose real good.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, after those men passed you, did you let the doors swing back, or did you walk back with it, or what did you do?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I just turned loose of it. There was another officer that closed right in behind them.

Mr. GRIFFIN. There were other officers that closed in behind the TV cameramen?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did those officers go?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. They just stood there. There were some standing in front of the door at the time.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But you didn't follow them through the door?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. No. They were already stationed there, and then when they started pushing through, the doors came open, and the officers just moved aside.

Mr. GRIFFIN. As that door swung shut, do you recall whether you then looked back up the hallway from which that camera had come to see if other people were coming down, or whether you might have looked in toward the jail office, or whether you continued to watch them go on?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I don't remember.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember any activity back here in that hallway immediately after you let go of that swinging door?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Well, just a little, maybe a minute or two.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Later?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But not immediately thereafter? Do you have any recollection of seeing anything back there immediately thereafter?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Well, right after, right after this, the doors came to here, a man stepped away from the wall over there, the one I told you previously where one came into the hallway.

Mr. GRIFFIN. A newspaperman? A newspaper person?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Stepped away from this area where you have the "N" marked?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did he walk to?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. He walked out toward the swinging doors and motioned for somebody to come out.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And your attention was attracted to him?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you actually see that man move away?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Yes. Who moved away from right here and stepped about half way from where he was standing up to the swinging doors.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Have you watched the movies of all this?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I just seen it one time.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Are you able to state whether what you are telling us now is from your own knowledge, or is it confused with anything you may have seen in the movies?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Because I remember when he stepped out, I made him get back, and I told him to get back up against the wall.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall whether you were looking in his direction when he did this, or whether your attention was attracted to him and then you had to look at him?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I think I was looking in the hallway in this area here when he stepped out, and he stepped, there was only about two steps.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You say in this area here. You mean you were looking in the direction of Lowery?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Yes, in here.

Mr. GRIFFIN. She can't write that. I am going to have to explain for the record.

Were you looking in the direction of Lowery, or in the direction of the railing?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Well, in the direction of the TV camera which was being pushed out at this time.

Mr. GRIFFIN. That man walked out, and you got out to motion somebody in, and you pushed him back?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I told him to get back up against the wall.

Mr. GRIFFIN. At that point do you believe that if somebody had walked out from the channel 5 camera that was already in place behind the railing, are you able to state whether or not you would have seen him get in position and help push that other camera?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Well, that is kind of hard to say, because when I looked out here and he stepped out there, and I told him to get back, I don't know whether I would notice anybody at that camera, because my attention at this time was at the man that stepped away from the hallway.

Mr. GRIFFIN. However, whatever struck your attention to the general placement of the people in front of those TV cameras, do you recall whether there were people in front of the TV cameras at any time before you saw this other TV camera come out of the hallway?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Whether they were exactly in front of the TV cameras, I don't know, but I know there was lots of people along this north wall and in the driveway.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You are not indicating anything that is directly in front of the TV camera?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Well, shortly after this camera came through, someone hollered, "Here they come," or else I think I forget, or "They are on their way down"--we have lights on the basement showing where the elevator is coming down, and someone hollered to clear the way for the cameras--to get out from in front of the cameras--but as far as me telling how many people were in front of the cameras, I don't know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Had you ever talked to Lowery about whether he saw some man come from the channel 5 stationary camera and help push the moving camera into that space?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Now, Lowery and I were talking when Lieutenant Wallace told us--he said, if I remember right, Wallace, he says, "I believe I think I found out where you got the third man." And we asked him where, and he said he found out from the crew that a man came from the other channel 5 camera that was already in the basement and helped them down this short incline, because the camera was rocking.

And I said, "I don't remember anybody, but I do remember seeing three men on the camera." And, Lowery said the same thing, that he did remember seeing the three men. But I don't remember anybody coming from here to the camera.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let's go ahead now, sir. When you were up there filling out your report in the homicide office--when you talked with these men that you finally detained after the shooting, the two men that you detained, did you describe to them the third man that was with them?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When you asked them where is the third man and he said there wasn't, what did they say?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. They just told me that there wasn't any, that if there was a third man there, they didn't know about it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was anybody else standing with you at the time they said that?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I believe Officer Lowery was there at that time. But the first thing, I went right out there and got a hold of both of them and asked them, "Where is the other man that came out with them." And he said, "There wasn't any other man." And I said, "I know there were three men with you when you came out." And he said, "If there was one between us, they don't know nothing about it." And I don't remember whether Officer Lowery was there, but I don't think he was there, but we did question them again, and I still think there was a third man.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about Officer Swain, did he make that denial to Swain?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I don't really know, because that is when I left and had to go up to the first floor. Lowery started getting their names and they talked to Lieutenant Swain and told them what it was, and he said, "Go ahead and get their names and ask where they are going to be."

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who was it that came up to you and told you that he had found out, had an explanation for the third man.

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Lieutenant Wallace.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long was that after Sunday, November 24?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I imagine that was maybe a week or two, because through their investigation they tried to contact everybody that was down there. It was quite some time. The exact amount of days, I don't know, but it was quite some time after that he explained it to us.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When you got up to the homicide office, did Lowery fill out a report?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Harrison fill out a report while you were out there?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I think he did.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you all talk about this when you were up there?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Yes; I believe we did.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I take it that you were all--as a matter of fact, this was probably a matter of general interest to everybody up there, don't you imagine?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You think anybody could have been in that office without knowing what you guys had seen?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I think so, because we don't tell everybody up there in the office. Of course, at the time we wrote out a report, I think there was me, Lowery, and I believe Harrison did come back and start writing out his, and I think Lieutenant Wallace, and he said put down what you saw and what you know only, and that is the way I wrote out my report.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You mentioned the guys you were talking with about it, so anybody other than you and Lowery who might have been there could have heard it and might have told it to somebody else?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Possibly; yes. But we didn't talk a whole lot while we were writing the report. We just sat down and wrote it out.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about after you wrote the report?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Yes. We went back to our office and shot the bull and gabbed about it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And speculated about it?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did other people come in there?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about other members of the juvenile bureau?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was Officer Goolsby there?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. In the office.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was Martin there?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Yes; he was out there quite a bit.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was Miller there?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you think of anybody else who was in that office after you had written out your report and were talking about this?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Well, let's see. There was a reporter up there. You mean so far as officers is concerned, or just anybody?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Give me just the officers first.

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I believe June McLine, and then I believe that covered all the officers and myself and Harrison and Miller, and Goolsby, and McLine, and then there were other officers, I know, but I don't know who all they were. I don't remember. And they had that one little reporter from up north somewhere.

Mr. GRIFFIN. One of those Yankee reporters?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Like Cleveland, Ohio, maybe?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I don't know where he was from, but I didn't like him very much. Then there was a French reporter.

Mr. GRIFFIN. A French reporter was up there?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Had you seen that French reporter when you were down in the basement?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I think so. I'm not going to swear, because there were so darn many of them.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Had you seen that French reporter there before this?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Yes; because he and some other reporters from up North, they kind of made our office their office, you might say. That was their base of operation.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did that French reporter tell you? Did he see that TV camera come through?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I didn't talk to him about it or ask him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did any of the people who were up there in the office indicate they had also seen the TV camera come through?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I think Goolsby said he saw the camera come through but he didn't remember anything about who was pushing it or anything.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, off the record.

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you view the TV film with these men coming through?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. From your recollection of that TV film, could you see the third man on the camera pushing it through?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. No; the only two I could see was just the two that I gave a description. It was one on the right that had, I think, the greenish-type shirt, and the one on the left that had the black coat.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Try to remember that TV film. Did that TV film which you saw, did that show the camera as it came through the door?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did it show the man looking up at you?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I don't remember whether it did or not.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is the camera shot taken from such a position that if there had been a third man behind the camera, it would have showed up on the TV picture?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Now, the camera shot on this one that was coming up on the door was a straight-on shot, and whether they would show up, I didn't see any other man. If he had been there, he would be directly behind the stand.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall how far that TV picture of the men coming out of the swinging doors follows the camera as it proceeds through the swinging doors? Out past Lowery? Does it show Lowery up on the TV?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I don't remember whether it does or not, because at the time I saw the film, I was just looking at the camera to see whether I could see anybody behind it or not. The way the picture was on the film, it shows the camera coming out, and it was passing out of range of the TV camera that was taking the pictures at the time.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, how soon after Oswald was shot did you view those TV films?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I don't remember.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was it before or after Lieutenant Wallace reported to you that he could solve the problem of the third man?