Chapter XXV: Part 25

Lieutenant PIERCE. I can't recall right now. I know the name, I am sure that I know him by sight, but I don't connect the name with the person.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you notice that there had been placed a uniformed officer, reserve or otherwise, near the service elevator in the basement?

Lieutenant PIERCE. Are you talking about in the new building?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes, sir; the elevator that goes up into the municipal building.

Lieutenant PIERCE. As well as I remember, there was an officer. I believe his name was Brock. A police officer by the name of Brock. I'm not certain, but those elevators had been cut off for----

Mr. HUBERT. Well, the two regular elevators had, but what about the service elevator that had two doors, one leading into the basement and another one leading on the other side of the basement? Are you familiar with the elevator at all?

Lieutenant PIERCE. Yes, sir; it has a back door to it leading out into the alley, and that is the elevator I believe, that was brought down and cut off and an officer stationed there to see that it didn't run.

Mr. HUBERT. Were you aware of any planned route from the basement area to the county jail?

Lieutenant PIERCE. My instructions were that I would escort the armored car, which would be a decoy, from Commerce Street ramp to Central northbound. To Elm Street onto Houston Street, which would be the entrance to the county jail.

Mr. HUBERT. Who did you receive those orders from?

Lieutenant PIERCE. From Chief Curry and Chief Stevenson.

Mr. HUBERT. About what time did you get those orders?

Lieutenant PIERCE. I would assume it was about 11:15.

Mr. HUBERT. What did you do then?

Lieutenant PIERCE. I immediately left. I received these instructions in the homicide office, which is on the third floor of the city hall. Immediately left there and rode the elevator down to the basement where I secured a car and I found that the normal exit, which is the exit on Commerce Street from the basement of the city hall, was blocked by an armored car. It was necessary for me to use the Main Street exit. I mean--actually, the Main Street entrance, because we don't exit----

Mr. HUBERT. But you used it as an exit?

Lieutenant PIERCE. I used it as an exit.

Mr. HUBERT. Who was with you?

Lieutenant PIERCE. Sergeant Putnam was in the front seat with me and Sergeant Maxey was in the back seat.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, tell us what happened along the route then?

Lieutenant PIERCE. Well, we pulled out of the basement, and I would judge from the time, from the length of time, probably a length it would take it to circle city hall.

Mr. HUBERT. When you got to the top of the basement, were there any guards there on the Main Street entrance?

Lieutenant PIERCE. Patrolman Vaughn was stationed at the top of the ramp.

Mr. HUBERT. You knew him prior to that time?

Lieutenant PIERCE. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. What happened then?

Lieutenant PIERCE. Well, actually, nothing happened outside of the fact that he had to move out of the way to let us out.

Mr. HUBERT. Which way did he move?

Lieutenant PIERCE. He moved toward the street.

Mr. HUBERT. I mean on which side of you?

Lieutenant PIERCE. He moved to my right.

Mr. HUBERT. And towards the street?

Lieutenant PIERCE. And towards the street; yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. What way was he facing then during the period that you were moving by him?

Lieutenant PIERCE. He was facing me, as well as I remember.

Mr. HUBERT. That is----

Lieutenant PIERCE. Momentarily, anyway.

Mr. HUBERT. In fact, he would have been looking from where he was standing toward the Main Street entrance?

Lieutenant PIERCE. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you see him turn his head any at all?

Lieutenant PIERCE. No, sir; I couldn't see him for just a matter of a second there when I pulled out. That ramp is steep and a little bit difficult to get out there.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he step out in the street at all?

Lieutenant PIERCE. Not to my knowledge.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, did you turn, immediately outside the Main Street entry or exit, to your right?

Lieutenant PIERCE. I was aware that people were pressed, not a large number of them, but I would say maybe four or five.

Mr. HUBERT. On your right?

Lieutenant PIERCE. No, well, probably might have been a--I don't know. Just a guess. I don't recall the number of people now, what it would be.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall whether there were some people on your right?

Lieutenant PIERCE. I was aware that people were on both sides of the car when I pulled across the sidewalk.

Mr. HUBERT. And how far from the entrance?

Lieutenant PIERCE. Well, probably 6 or 7 feet.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you recognize anybody at all?

Lieutenant PIERCE. Nobody except one by the name of Vaughn.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, subsequently, of course, it turned out that Ruby shot Oswald. Did you know him prior to that time?

Lieutenant PIERCE. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Ruby?

Lieutenant PIERCE. Yes, sir; I have known him 12 or 13 years, I guess.

Mr. HUBERT. So, you would recognize him without any difficulty whether he had a hat on or not?

Lieutenant PIERCE. I don't think I would have any trouble recognizing him if I saw him.

Mr. HUBERT. You did not, see him in that crowd to your right?

Lieutenant PIERCE. No; I didn't see him that day at all.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you think that if he had been there he would have recognized you?

Lieutenant PIERCE. I'm saying the possibilities are very great that had he been there I might not have seen him. I mean, due to the time element and more or less concerned with getting across the sidewalk and into the street, driving the automobile at the same time. I am saying the possibilities are very good that I might not have seen him had he been there. I'd be very hesitant to say that I wouldn't.

Mr. HUBERT. I'm going to mark for identification three documents. First, I am marking, "Dallas, Texas, March 24th, 1964, Exhibit 5077. Deposition of Rio Pierce" and putting my name underneath that, and my initial on the second page and in the right-hand lower corner, that being a copy of a letter dated November 26, 1963, addressed to Chief Curry. The second document also consisting of two pages, a report of an interview with you by FBI Agents Smith and Chapoton, on December 6, in 1963. I am marking that, "Dallas, Texas, March 24, 1964. Exhibit 5078, deposition of Rio Pierce." Signing my name on the front page of that, and I place my initials on the lower right-hand corner of the second page. And I am marking a third document on the right-hand margin, "Dallas, Texas, March 24, 1964. Exhibit 5079, deposition of Rio Pierce." Signing my name on that front page and placing my initials in the lower right-hand corner of the second and third pages. That last document, to wit: 5079, purports to be a report of an interview by FBI Agents Chapoton and Smith of you, Rio Pierce, on December 2, 1963. Now, I ask you if you have had an opportunity to look at these documents?

Lieutenant PIERCE. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Are those documents correct and true?

Lieutenant PIERCE. To the best of my knowledge, they are.

Mr. HUBERT. Are there any omissions of a material nature?

Lieutenant PIERCE. I don't recall any.

Mr. HUBERT. Anything you would like to delete as not being the truth, or add because it has been omitted?

Lieutenant PIERCE. No; I don't see anything in there that I would care to change.

Mr. HUBERT. As far as you know, this represents the truth as you know it?

Lieutenant PIERCE. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, Maxey was in your car, was he not?

Lieutenant PIERCE. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Was he in the rear?

Lieutenant PIERCE. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he ever talk to you about having seen Daniels at the exit? N. J. Daniels?

Lieutenant PIERCE. You mean since then?

Mr. HUBERT. Well, since the day you drove out of there. In other words, have you and Maxey ever, at all, conversed about whether he, Maxey, saw Daniels?

Lieutenant PIERCE. It is possible. I don't recall. People talk about a lot of things since then.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, there has been no interview between you and any member of the Commission's staff before this deposition today, has there?

Lieutenant PIERCE. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Anything else you want to say or add or change?

Lieutenant PIERCE. I don't know of a thing.

Mr. HUBERT. Thank you very much, sir.

TESTIMONY OF SGT. JAMES A. PUTNAM

The testimony of Sgt. James A. Putnam was taken at 10:05 p.m., on March 24, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr., assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. HUBERT. All right. This is the deposition of Sgt. James A. Putnam, Dallas Police Department. Sergeant Putnam, my name is Leon Hubert, Jr., I am a member of the advisory staff of the general counsel on the President's Commission. Under the provisions of the Executive Order 11130, dated November 29, 1963, by President of the United States, the joint resolution of Congress No. 137 and the rules of procedure adopted by the President's Commission in conformance with the Executive order and the joint resolution, I have been authorized to take a sworn deposition from you, Mr. Putnam. I state to you now that the general nature of the Commission's inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate, and report upon the facts relating to the assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of Lee Harvey Oswald. In particular to you, Sergeant Putnam, the nature of this inquiry tonight is to determine what facts you know about the death of Oswald and any other pertinent facts you know, now, about the general inquiry.

Sergeant Putnam, you have appeared by virtue of a general request made to Chief Curry by the general counsel of the staff of the President's Commission, Mr. J. Lee Rankin. Under the rules adopted by the Commission you are entitled to a 3-day written notice prior to the taking of this deposition, but the rules also provide that a witness may waive the 3-day written notice. Now, I'll ask you if you are willing to waive that 3-day written notice?

Sergeant PUTNAM. What is the purpose?

Mr. HUBERT. Simply this, that any witness--the Commission says that any witness should have a privilege of having 3 days' written notice before he may be called upon to testify, and that in writing. Now, you have not had that, because of the way the request came. You see, the request came by letter to Mr. Curry from Mr. Rankin, who is the general counsel of the President's Commission, and----

Sergeant PUTNAM. May I ask why it was done by this method rather than the normal official notice?

Mr. HUBERT. Simply because of the number of people that were involved. If you wish to have the normal 3-day notice----

Sergeant PUTNAM. Well, will any further--will there be necessary for me to appear at any further date? Also, are we going to conclude it tonight? I will waive it for tonight and request if there is a further need for me to arrive at this time, that I receive it if--it has got my only day off in 2 weeks. I will waive it at this time and request it if you do need me again, but I do get the 3-day official notice.

Mr. HUBERT. We certainly will do so. First, let me say this in regard to the time and so forth and being your day off. The actual sequence of witnesses and the times they appear was not arranged by us. I don't want to place the blame on anyone but I am awfully sorry.

Sergeant PUTNAM. That's all right.

Mr. HUBERT. Let me say that if we want to call you in again, you will surely get the notice, but I don't believe you will be. However, I can't be absolutely certain. I will get in touch with you by phone and be sure that we don't disturb any of your rest days, because I know how important that is. Would you stand up and raise your right hand and take the oath. Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Sergeant PUTNAM. I do.

Mr. HUBERT. All right. Please state your full name, please.

Sergeant PUTNAM. James A. Putnam.

Mr. HUBERT. And your age?

Sergeant PUTNAM. Thirty-seven.

Mr. HUBERT. And your residence?

Sergeant PUTNAM. 2015 Joan Drive.

Mr. HUBERT. Dallas?

Sergeant PUTNAM. Dallas, Tex.

Mr. HUBERT. What is your present occupation and how long have you held it?

Sergeant PUTNAM. Police officer. Ten years and four months.

Mr. HUBERT. And the rank you have now?

Sergeant PUTNAM. Sergeant.

Mr. HUBERT. How long have you been sergeant? You have held that for how long?

Sergeant PUTNAM. Eight months.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you have the same rank and responsibilities during the period of November 22 and 24?

Sergeant PUTNAM. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Who do you serve under, sir?

Sergeant PUTNAM. Lieutenant Pierce.

Mr. HUBERT. And Lieutenant Pierce is with the patrol division?

Sergeant PUTNAM. That's right.

Mr. HUBERT. He is under Captain Talbert?

Sergeant PUTNAM. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, then, Captain Talbert is your superior officer, too----

Sergeant PUTNAM. Also.

Mr. HUBERT. In the line of command. Now, I have in my hand, two documents which I am going to mark--three documents which I am going to mark. Marking the first one as follows, to wit: "Dallas, Texas, March 24, 1964, Exhibit 5071. Deposition of J. A. Putnam," and I am signing my name on that. The document is supposed to be a copy of a letter dated November 26, addressed by James A. Putnam to Chief of Police J. E. Curry, and it has two pages. I am placing my initials on the second page. I am marking another document as follows, "Dallas, Texas, March 24th, 1964, Exhibit 5072. Deposition of J. A. Putnam." I am signing my name on that page, the exhibit being a single page exhibit. Then I am marking a four-page exhibit being a report of an interview of you made on December the 3, by Special Agents Carris and Peden of the FBI. I am marking the first page in the bottom right hand, "Dallas, Texas, March 24, 1964, Exhibit 5073. Deposition of J. A. Putnam." I am signing my name on the first page below that, and putting my initials in the lower right-hand corner of the three subsequent pages on that exhibit. Have you had a chance to read these three documents that I have marked?

Sergeant PUTNAM. I thought there were two. I would like to see the second one you marked. It may be another interview by the FBI. Now, is that correct?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Sergeant PUTNAM. I wasn't aware that this was separate. I know I read the first one. Yes; I had missed that page. That was----

Mr. HUBERT. What I want to ask you about all three of them, as a group, if we can handle them that way, and if we can't----

Sergeant PUTNAM. I believe we can.

Mr. HUBERT. If they represent the truth, if there are any errors in any of those exhibits, if there are any omissions, do you wish to add anything, delete anything or modify anything?

Sergeant PUTNAM. No, sir; I accept them as they are.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, would you do this, then. Would you put your name below my name where it appears and your initials below my initials that appear. Now, sergeant, I have only a very few questions, I think, to ask you about this, because as I read your statements they are rather complete, taking the three together. They just give about everything you know about the whole thing.

Sergeant PUTNAM. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. As I understand from this, you were in the basement area, from about 9:30 until shortly before 11:20?

Sergeant PUTNAM. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. You assisted, I think, in the searches made of the basement area?

Sergeant PUTNAM. That's correct.

Mr. HUBERT. You made some of these searches yourself?

Sergeant PUTNAM. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know Jack Ruby?

Sergeant PUTNAM. No, I--now, I----

Mr. HUBERT. Well, you know him now, of course. Did you on November 24, prior to the time that Oswald was shot, did you know of the existence of a person named Jack Ruby?

Sergeant PUTNAM. I had heard the name. But so far as ever meeting him personally, I don't think that I ever had. If I did, I don't remember it from seeing his pictures.

Mr. HUBERT. That is what I wanted to ask you, on the 24th, if you had met him and had formed a sufficient impression upon your mind so that you would have recognized him at all?

Mr. PUTNAM. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Of course, you did see his picture and perhaps you saw him after his arrest?

Sergeant PUTNAM. I saw his picture. I have not seen him personally.

Mr. HUBERT. You didn't see him in the basement area?

Mr. PUTNAM. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know of anyone who did?

Sergeant PUTNAM. That saw him in the basement?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Sergeant PUTNAM. Prior to the shooting?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Mr. PUTNAM. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Have you been in any discussion with anybody as to who might have seen him and who might not have?

Sergeant PUTNAM. No, sir. I--there have been discussions to the effect that if he were there, surely someone would have seen him and recognized him. I mean, just in informal discussions, how could he be there.

Mr. HUBERT. And yet, of course, he was there?

Sergeant PUTNAM. I understand that.

Mr. HUBERT. But, you know of no evidence that would indicate that anyone did actually see him?

Sergeant PUTNAM. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. You have never heard anyone say that he had seen him?

Sergeant PUTNAM. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Have you heard anyone say that they knew that someone had seen him there?

Sergeant PUTNAM. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, the discussions have been simply that since he was there it is just amazing that he was not seen my anybody?

Sergeant PUTNAM. Except when I evaluate it. Having worked with those reporters and around them I can understand how that could have happened, because with as many a number of reporters that we dealt with for those 2 days, it's a tough job knowing everyone personally.

Mr. HUBERT. I think you were directed to get into a car with a couple of people and drive around to the Commerce Street side?

Sergeant PUTNAM. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Who gave you that direction?

Sergeant PUTNAM. Sergeant Dean.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, when you drove out you were driving the car, weren't you?

Sergeant PUTNAM. That's--no, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Weren't you? Didn't you drive the car?

Sergeant PUTNAM. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Who drove it?

Sergeant PUTNAM. Lieutenant Pierce.

Mr. HUBERT. Oh, I'm sorry. Did you see Lieutenant Pierce leave with the car?

Sergeant PUTNAM. I was in the car.

Mr. HUBERT. Where were you seated in the car?

Sergeant PUTNAM. In the front seat.

Mr. HUBERT. I'm sorry. The front right seat?

Sergeant PUTNAM. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Who was in the back seat?

Sergeant PUTNAM. Sergeant Maxey.

Mr. HUBERT. When did you first get seated in the car?

Sergeant PUTNAM. Are you referring to time?

Mr. HUBERT. Let's get it this way, I understand that you had to get out of the car to move some of the people out of the way so that the car could go up the ramp.

Sergeant PUTNAM. That's correct.

Mr. HUBERT. So, you were seated in the car in the basement or parking area at first when you started off?

Sergeant PUTNAM. Actually on the ramp that comes from the parking area to the ramp that goes between the two streets.

Mr. HUBERT. Got in the car there?

Sergeant PUTNAM. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you have to get out?

Sergeant PUTNAM. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. When did you have to get out?

Sergeant PUTNAM. After he traveled about 10 to 15 feet.

Mr. HUBERT. Why did you have to get out?

Sergeant PUTNAM. Because the reporters had formed on the north.

Mr. HUBERT. Main Street?

Sergeant PUTNAM. On the north.

Mr. HUBERT. Why don't you just use the street directions. Main Street ramp?

Sergeant PUTNAM. Main Street ramp, but by the "ramp" I don't mean the incline, where it flattens out.

Mr. HUBERT. I understand. On that flat part.

Sergeant PUTNAM. That's right. So, I had to get out of the car and move them back to prevent hitting some of them.

Mr. HUBERT. How many people were in that area do you think?

Sergeant PUTNAM. I would estimate 15 to 25.

Mr. HUBERT. And they were standing shoulder to shoulder?

Sergeant PUTNAM. I didn't get--this impression. They were standing in wait of the expected departure of Oswald, and they were just mingled, and you know how reporters act and operate in trying to position themselves.

Mr. HUBERT. It wasn't enough that you were able to blow the horn, you had to get out?

Sergeant PUTNAM. We didn't even attempt to blow the horn to cause confusion. First of all, this is the entrance and not the exit. They are not expecting a vehicle coming out of there, they are not paying attention to us. They are looking in the direction they expect Oswald to come out from, so, I got out and----

Mr. HUBERT. When the path cleared up, you got back in again?

Sergeant PUTNAM. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. Was the window on the right down?

Sergeant PUTNAM. The window was down.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, when you got to the top of the ramp, what happened? That is when you got to the Main Street, the sidewalk area, and, of course, the street area, would you describe in your own words just what happened? What did you see?

Sergeant PUTNAM. I saw officer Vaughn and about six persons.

Mr. HUBERT. Where was Vaughn now when you first saw him?

Sergeant PUTNAM. In front of our automobile about the middle of the sidewalk.

Mr. HUBERT. What did he do?

Sergeant PUTNAM. He stepped to the right and about to the curb, or just off of the curb, glanced to his right and looked back and waved us on.

Mr. HUBERT. You went into Main Street and turned left?

Sergeant PUTNAM. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he go very much out into the street to assist you to get out?

Sergeant PUTNAM. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. You say he stepped off of the curb, though?

Sergeant PUTNAM. Possibly one step off of the curb.

Mr. HUBERT. And then he looked to his right and his left? How did he do that?

Sergeant PUTNAM. I----

Mr. HUBERT. How was he standing? With his back to you?

Sergeant PUTNAM. My impression was he was facing us and my impression was that he glanced to his right, which would be to the westbound traffic and Lieutenant Pierce, the driver, was on the left and in a position to see the eastbound traffic.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, turned his head so that the back of his head would have been towards the Main Street ramp?

Sergeant PUTNAM. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. And he stepped off of the curb just about 2 feet?

Sergeant PUTNAM. Well, I would say in one step, 2 feet.

Mr. HUBERT. Didn't go into the middle of the street?

Sergeant PUTNAM. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. And he waved you on?

Sergeant PUTNAM. He immediately turned back and glanced like this [indicating], and turned back, and was walking back to his position on the sidewalk.

Mr. HUBERT. Would you say from the time you all reached the Main Street exit point to the time that Vaughn started to walk back to his position, it took only a matter of 3 or 4 seconds?

Sergeant PUTNAM. We didn't even stop the car. It would be very few seconds.

Mr. HUBERT. No stop at all?

Sergeant PUTNAM. Just a--to prevent from hitting a pedestrian walking on the sidewalk. Now, there wasn't one walking, but to take a quick glance like you would do approaching a sidewalk, the car was slowed, and immediately--at this time everything happened at once. He slowed the car, Vaughn walked and glanced and waved us on. He accelerated and we went on to Main Street.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you turn your head to the right when you got to the sidewalk?

Sergeant PUTNAM. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you see anybody?

Sergeant PUTNAM. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Was not a soul?

Sergeant PUTNAM. Didn't see anyone in sight in--except Officer Vaughn and the persons that I say were on the left.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, there was nobody coming up Main Street towards Harwood?

Sergeant PUTNAM. I can't say that there was not. I can say that I didn't see them.

Mr. HUBERT. That is all you can do, of course.

Sergeant PUTNAM. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And there was no one standing there that you saw?

Sergeant PUTNAM. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Specifically, now, the man that you later knew to be Jack Ruby, you did not see either walking up, or standing by on the Pearl Street side of Main Street exit?

Sergeant PUTNAM. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you look at the people on the left side?

Sergeant PUTNAM. I only glanced. I just----

Mr. HUBERT. Can you identify anybody?

Sergeant PUTNAM. Not a person.

Mr. HUBERT. Can you specifically say that Ruby was not there?

Sergeant PUTNAM. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. All you can say is, I take it then, the man you have since learned to be Ruby was--you didn't see him?

Sergeant PUTNAM. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. If he was there, you didn't see him?

Sergeant PUTNAM. I didn't see him.

Mr. HUBERT. Can you go as far as to say, turning again to your right-hand side, that there was nobody on your right-hand side at all?

Sergeant PUTNAM. I can say that there was no one in the immediate vicinity within, I would say--well, it was apparent that--15 feet away from me I saw a group of people standing, and to the right----

Mr. HUBERT. On the----

Sergeant PUTNAM. To the left, and to the right I saw no one in the immediate vicinity of us.

Mr. HUBERT. That is immediately upon coming out?

Sergeant PUTNAM. That's right.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you see the person who has subsequently been identified as Jack Ruby among the reporters that he pushed through?

Sergeant PUTNAM. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you see any such person come down the ramp as you were going up the ramp?

Sergeant PUTNAM. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. How far down Main Street to Pearl do you think you can see?

Sergeant PUTNAM. Well, it is a clear view to Pearl Street, but my attention would not have been directed by someone half a block away. It would have made no impression.

Mr. HUBERT. But, your thought is that there was nobody at least as far as a half a block away?

Sergeant PUTNAM. That's my belief.

Mr. HUBERT. And Vaughn turned immediately back and went back to his position?

Sergeant PUTNAM. Was walking back in that direction. In other words, we could have been close enough to touch him.

Mr. HUBERT. As you passed, he was walking back.

Sergeant PUTNAM. That's correct.

Mr. HUBERT. And therefore, he was facing towards the entrance?

Sergeant PUTNAM. That's correct.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you hear him call to anybody up there?

Sergeant PUTNAM. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, is there anything else you would like to say?

Sergeant PUTNAM. Well----

Mr. HUBERT. Any other facts that aren't covered in the documents which we have identified here as 5071, 5072 and 5073?

Sergeant PUTNAM. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. I do not believe you have been interviewed by any member of the Commission's staff at all prior to this deposition?

Sergeant PUTNAM. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, I think that is all. If any fact that has not been developed in these reports and in your testimony should come to your attention, I hope you will free to let us know about it if you think it is a material fact. All we are seeking is to get the facts. That's all. And if, by chance, you have forgotten something and you should remember it at a later date, please contact us through the United States attorney's office and tell them that you have a fact that you would like to report that you have overlooked and we will make arrangements to see you again.

But at this time, we will give you the 3 days' notice.

I thank you, sir.

TESTIMONY OF WILLIE B. SLACK

The testimony of Willie B. Slack was taken at 11 a.m., on March 31, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr., assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. HUBERT. This is the deposition of Patrolman Willie--is that Willie? Not William?

Mr. SLACK. Willie.

Mr. HUBERT. Willie B. Slack. Mr. Slack, my name is Leon Hubert. I am a member of the advisory staff of the general counsel of the President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy. Under the rules provided by the Executive Order 11130, dated November 29, 1963, and the joint resolution of Congress, No. 137, together with the rules of procedure adopted by the President's Commission in conformance with the Executive order and joint resolution, I have been authorized to take a sworn deposition from you, Mr. Slack.

I state to you now that the general nature of the Commission's inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate and report upon the facts relating to the assassination of President Kennedy, and the subsequent violent death of Lee Harvey Oswald. In particular to you, Mr. Slack, the nature of the inquiry today is to determine the facts that you know about the death of Oswald, and any other pertinent facts you may know about the general inquiry. Now, Mr. Slack, you have appeared here today by virtue of the general request made to Chief Curry by J. Lee Rankin, who is general counsel of the President's Commission. Under the rules adopted by this Commission, you are entitled to a 3-day written notice that your deposition is going to be taken, but the rules also provide that you may waive the 3-day written notice if you see fit to do so. And are you now willing to waive that 3-day notice?

Mr. SLACK. I do.

Mr. HUBERT. That being the case, will you stand and be sworn?

Do you solemnly swear then to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. SLACK. I do.

Mr. HUBERT. Will you state your name, please?

Mr. SLACK. W. B. Slack.

Mr. HUBERT. Your age?

Mr. SLACK. Thirty-nine.

Mr. HUBERT. Your residence?

Mr. SLACK. 5605 Sumatra, Dallas.

Mr. HUBERT. And your occupation?

Mr. SLACK. Patrolman.

Mr. HUBERT. How long have you been a patrolman on the Dallas Police Force?

Mr. SLACK. Ten years.

Mr. HUBERT. What is your particular assignment?

Mr. SLACK. Working in the jail office.

Mr. HUBERT. What duties do you have there, in general?

Mr. SLACK. We answer the telephone, and when the officers bring the worksheets down, we book them on a booking form.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, book the prisoners in and out?

Mr. SLACK. Check them out when somebody comes in and pays them out.

Mr. HUBERT. When you say, "Pays them out," you mean, makes bond?

Mr. SLACK. Yes, sir; or writs.

Mr. HUBERT. Or writs? Oh, you mean if they are released on a writ?

Mr. SLACK. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, your office then is the control center, as it were, for people coming in and people coming out?

Mr. SLACK. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. You work in shifts, of course, like all the rest of the police?

Mr. SLACK. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Were you on duty on November 24, 1963, the day that Oswald was shot?

Mr. SLACK. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. What time did you come on duty?

Mr. SLACK. 6:30 a.m., in the morning.

Mr. HUBERT. You had what is called the first platoon, I think. Eleven o'clock, oh, no--I beg your pardon. That would be the second platoon.

Mr. SLACK. Second platoon.

Mr. HUBERT. Comes on at 6:30 and goes off at 2:30?

Mr. SLACK. 2:30.

Mr. HUBERT. Therefore, you were there between 11 and the time Oswald was shot?

Mr. SLACK. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know Jack Ruby?

Mr. SLACK. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Had you ever seen him before that day?

Mr. SLACK. Not to my knowledge; no.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall the occasion when Oswald was brought down to be transferred to the county jail?

Mr. SLACK. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, tell us what you know about it in your own words.

Mr. SLACK. Well, he got off the elevator and----

Mr. HUBERT. Had you ever seen him before that time?

Mr. SLACK. No, sir; and he was flanked on either side by detectives and Captain Fritz was with the detectives, and they went out the swinging doors, which is into the basement of the city hall.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know what time that was?

Mr. SLACK. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. What time was it?

Mr. SLACK. 11:20.

Mr. HUBERT. How do you fix that?

Mr. SLACK. When a prisoner is released from jail we have to put the time on a booking card, we have to put them down.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you do so?

Mr. SLACK. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Does that booking card exist?

Mr. SLACK. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Have you examined it briefly?

Mr. SLACK. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. How long ago?

Mr. SLACK. I examined it before I came to work, before I came over here.

Mr. HUBERT. When? This morning, or yesterday, or----

Mr. SLACK. That was yesterday.

Mr. HUBERT. What does it show?

Mr. SLACK. It shows----

Mr. HUBERT. About the time?

Mr. SLACK. Transferred to the county at 11:20 a.m., on the 24th of November.

Mr. HUBERT. Whose handwriting is that entry in?

Mr. SLACK. It is in mine.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, how did you fix the time? How do you normally fix the time?

Mr. SLACK. Well, we put the date and the time.

Mr. HUBERT. What I mean is, do you have an electric clock?

Mr. SLACK. No, sir; do it with a pencil, or fountain pen.

Mr. HUBERT. You mean you rely upon your watch?

Mr. SLACK. No, sir; we have a clock on the wall.

Mr. HUBERT. Is that an electric clock?

Mr. SLACK. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Is it accurate?

Mr. SLACK. That, I can't answer, because----

Mr. HUBERT. Well, I mean, you all go by it?

Mr. SLACK. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Time is of importance in going in and going out of prisoners, isn't it?

Mr. SLACK. Yes, sir; it sure is important.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know if the clock is checked at any time to see if it is?

Mr. SLACK. Not to my knowledge; no, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Have you ever observed it to be wrong?

Mr. SLACK. No, sir; I sure haven't.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, it certainly needs checking procedure to see if it loses time, or gains, or stops because of the electricity being cut off, or something of that sort.

Mr. SLACK. Yes. Well, if the time was different from one of our watches I imagine they would call "Time," sir. Of course, we call "Time," all the time usually checking the news, you know, so it is checked that way.

Mr. HUBERT. In your opinion, that clock is accurate; right?

Mr. SLACK. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. If it were in error, what would you say would be the greatest error it could be in?

Mr. SLACK. Well, it couldn't be over a minute or two either way, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, what happened after that?

Mr. SLACK. Well, he went out the door, and then my job there was to, when the lieutenant told me that they had got in the car or transportation which was to be used, they then would notify me, and I was supposed to notify the dispatcher that they were----

Mr. HUBERT. What were you supposed to notify the dispatcher?

Mr. SLACK. That they were on their way.

Mr. HUBERT. Had you received any orders about that?

Mr. SLACK. Well----

Mr. HUBERT. I mean, who told you that, to notify the dispatcher?

Mr. SLACK. Lieutenant Wiggins.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, notifying the dispatcher, would mean that it would go over the radio?

Mr. SLACK. No, sir; they have a direct line to the county.

Mr. HUBERT. So, the purpose of notifying the dispatcher, so far as you know, was for them to telephone the county that the prisoner was on his way?

Mr. SLACK. Apparently; yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Had you been told that by Wiggins or had you been told that--merely to notify the dispatcher?

Mr. SLACK. The----

Mr. HUBERT. We have to take it on the record. Just----

Mr. SLACK. Well, my letter there I wrote that--do you have a copy of it?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Mr. SLACK. That I--well, I can say that I was told to tell the dispatcher that he was en route to the county.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know who the dispatcher was?

Mr. SLACK. Jim Farr is the dispatcher.

Mr. HUBERT. No; I mean on that particular day?

Mr. SLACK. Well, he is, like I say, the dispatcher up there, but when I called on this particular occasion, I got Miss Cason first, and then I----

Mr. HUBERT. Of course, that was to report to Miss Cason that the man had been shot?

Mr. SLACK. Yes, sir; but----

Mr. HUBERT. What did you say to Miss Cason?

Mr. SLACK. Told her that Oswald had been shot, and that we needed a doctor.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you call for an ambulance, tell her you needed an ambulance?

Mr. SLACK. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Your remark to Miss Cason was simply that Oswald had been shot and to get a doctor?

Mr. SLACK. Yes, sir; best of my knowledge.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, when did you write out the entry which you say was in your own hand showing that the prisoner was being transferred at 11:20? Was that done at 11:20 or later?

Mr. SLACK. I would--I believe I wrote it out then. In other words, what I am in the habit of doing is this. That is something that comes naturally.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, the normal procedure is that the time of release and the time of action taken----

Mr. SLACK. I was standing there----

Mr. HUBERT. Let me finish my question; is done simultaneously with the act itself?

Mr. SLACK. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. So, that normally, when a prisoner leaves you make these notations, and you look to see what time it is. You enter the time, and that is how the notation is made?

Mr. SLACK. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. As far as you know, was there any deviation from that normal procedure in the case of the transfer of Oswald?

Mr. SLACK. The deviation, it was in this point, that we usually have it filled out before the prisoner is brought down. In this particular case, we didn't know when he was going to be transferred, so therefore, we had to write down when he did come down.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, you hadn't pulled his card?

Mr. SLACK. I had his card pulled. I knew he was going to be transferred, presumably.

Mr. HUBERT. But you didn't know the time; so, therefore, you hadn't entered anything?

Mr. SLACK. No, sir; I had it on the clipboard on the counter where we always keep them.

Mr. HUBERT. What is your best recollection about what you entered there with reference to the shooting, that is to say, was the entry made before or after the shooting?

Mr. SLACK. It was made before the shooting.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, it was made in the interval when he came out of the elevator and they walked out?

Mr. SLACK. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Mr. SLACK. [Witness nods head.]

Mr. HUBERT. She can't--you have to say something, because the reporter can't record silence.

Mr. SLACK. Yes, sir; I forget.

Mr. HUBERT. You didn't see the shooting, as I understand it?

Mr. SLACK. No, sir; I saw the shuffle out there.

Mr. HUBERT. And then they brought Ruby and Oswald in?

Mr. SLACK. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Did either Ruby or Oswald say anything that you, yourself heard?

Mr. SLACK. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you notice the time that they brought them in? Who came in first?

Mr. SLACK. I don't know, sir. Like I say, the lieutenant told me to call the doctor, and, of course, my back end was turned a few seconds.

Mr. HUBERT. When you say, "lieutenant," I believe you are referring to Lieutenant Wiggins?

Mr. SLACK. Wiggins; yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. So, you called the dispatcher and told him what you said you told him, and what happened next, to your recollection?

Mr. SLACK. Well, it was just about over with then except the ambulance did come in, and, of course, that was a little confusion around there.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know anything about the times of, say the movement of Ruby up in the elevator to the jail, or the time when the ambulance arrived and the time when it left with Oswald?

Mr. SLACK. No, sir; not the exact time; no, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. No record was made on any of that?

Mr. SLACK. Not that I know of. Not in our office.

Mr. HUBERT. What is the form called that you filled in with your own hand about the time of movement? Does that have a number?

Mr. SLACK. We call it a booking card.

Mr. HUBERT. Booking card?

Mr. SLACK. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. And I think you testified that yesterday you looked at it to refresh your memory and it is in your handwriting, and it states 11:20?

Mr. SLACK. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Apparently sometime ago, let's say on December 12, you were interviewed by the FBI, and at that time you stated it was between 11:25 and 11:30 that Oswald was brought down. Can you assist us in explaining this discrepancy between the two times? Do you remember that interview?

Mr. SLACK. Yes, sir; I remember the interview; yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Edmond Hardin and Paul Scott, and yourself?

Mr. SLACK. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall telling them it was 11:25?

Mr. SLACK. No, sir; I don't.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you have any recollection now about it, or are you relying upon what you saw on the records yesterday when you looked at it?

Mr. SLACK. That would be the way I would have to go on it, sir, would be the records there.

Mr. HUBERT. You are satisfied that the record which is normally made extemporaneously with the act is really more accurate than your present memory right now?

Mr. SLACK. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Or would have been more accurate actually than your statement to the FBI agent if, in fact, you did say that?

Mr. SLACK. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. I would like you to just read these two documents. The one, the FBI report, and the other, the letter. Have you had occasion to read the two documents I have handed you, sir?

Mr. SLACK. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Let me mark them then for identification.

Mr. SLACK. There is a little discrepancy----

Mr. HUBERT. Yes; I'm going to give you an opportunity to explain them.

For the purpose of identification I am marking what purports to be a copy of a letter addressed to Mr. J. E. Curry, chief of police, apparently signed by Willie B. Slack, dated November 27, 1963. I am marking it "Dallas, Texas, March 31. 1963, Exhibit No. 5116, deposition of W. B. Slack." Putting my name below it. It has only one page. For the purpose of identification, I am marking what purports to be an FBI interview of Willie B. Slack by Agents Hardin and Scott, which took place on December 2, 1963. I am marking the first page of that document with the following, "Dallas, Texas, March 31, 1964. Exhibit No. 5117. Deposition of W. B. Slack," and signing my name, and on the second page thereof, on the lower right-hand corner I am placing my initial. Now, Patrolman Slack, I show you the document marked Exhibit 5116, and ask you if you have read it, and if it is a correct statement?

Mr. SLACK. All right.

Mr. HUBERT. Is that a correct statement?

Mr. SLACK. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. So that the record may show that we are both talking about the same thing, same document, I wonder if you will just put your name below mine. Now, we will refer to a document--in two pages--that I have marked a moment ago for identification as "5117," and ask you if you have read that, and if that is correct, or if you have any corrections or observation or comments to make with reference to that document? For the purpose of identification will you mark these two documents with your name where my name is, and with your initials where my initials are, and then you can make the comments if you want to correct it or modify it and so forth.

Mr. SLACK. You want me to mark it before I----

Mr. HUBERT. Just sign your name on that, and on the second page write your initials. That's right. Now, have you any comments to make, or any corrections to make concerning that document?

Mr. SLACK. Well, on your second page, in here, the document here stated that Patrolman Slack cleared his office. I didn't have anything to do with security in the office. Only part I was in charge would be the immediate area in which I was standing, and nobody was in there, of course, but our personnel. Of course, I believe I did make the statement to them after they had cleared it, it wasn't no one that had come in except authorized personnel.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, you are speaking of the second to last paragraph on the second page and you want to modify that paragraph so that it will conform with the statement you have just made, and which the stenographer has recorded?

Mr. SLACK. Yes, sir; I am not a supervisor or anything like that.

Mr. HUBERT. I notice also, and I believe you have already testified about this, but I think for the purposes of clarity, we ought to note it, and that is that upon the first page there is a statement that about 11:25 to 11:30, Oswald was brought down.

Mr. SLACK. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Your previous testimony actually has clarified that, but it was those times that you were speaking about in this deposition earlier, that is to say, that as to this statement in "5117" the last paragraph on the first page, wherein it says that you saw Oswald coming down somewhere between 11:25 and 11:30, your previous statement or testimony is more accurate, that is to say, that it was about 11:20.

Mr. SLACK. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. And I think that modification ought to be noted, too.

Mr. SLACK. Yes; I do too.

Mr. HUBERT. And it is noted, because the reporter has taken it down. Now, have you any other statement that you would like to make that has not been covered?

Mr. SLACK. No, sir; that is about all.

Mr. HUBERT. Were you interviewed by me or any other member of the Commission's staff prior to the taking of this deposition?

Mr. SLACK. No, sir; except the----

Mr. HUBERT. The FBI? Yes. I mean the President's Commission?

Mr. SLACK. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. The staff of the President's Commission?

Mr. SLACK. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, sir; I think that is all. Thank you very much.

TESTIMONY OF DON FRANCIS STEELE

The testimony of Don Francis Steele was taken at 10:05 p.m., on March 25, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr., assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. HUBERT. My name is Leon D. Hubert. I am a member of the advisory staff of the General Counsel on the President's Commission. Under the provisions of the Executive Order 11130, dated November 29, 1963, and joint resolution of Congress No. 137 and the rules of procedure adopted by the Commission in conformance with that Executive order in the joint resolution I have been authorized to take the sworn deposition from you, Mr. Steele. I now state that the general nature of the Commission's inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate, and report upon the facts relating to the assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of Lee Harvey Oswald. In particular to you, Mr. Steele, the nature of our inquiry tonight is to determine the facts you know about the death of Oswald and any other pertinent facts you may know about the general inquiry. Mr. Steele, you have appeared here by virtue of a request made by the general counsel on the staff of the President's Commission, Mr. J. Lee Rankin, directed to Chief J. E. Curry. Under the rules adopted by the Commission, you are entitled to a 3-day written notice prior to the taking of this deposition, but the rules adopted by this Commission also provide that you may waive that 3-day notice if you are willing to do so. Now, the question is: Are you willing to waive the notice?

Sergeant STEELE. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Will you stand and raise your right hand and be sworn. Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Sergeant STEELE. I do.

Mr. HUBERT. Will you please state your full name?

Sergeant STEELE. Don Francis Steele.

Mr. HUBERT. Your age?

Sergeant STEELE. Thirty-two.

Mr. HUBERT. Your residence?

Sergeant STEELE. 1707 Kent Drive, Arlington, Tex.

Mr. HUBERT. Your occupation?

Sergeant STEELE. Sergeant of police, Dallas, Tex.

Mr. HUBERT. How long have you been a sergeant of police?

Sergeant STEELE. Five years and four months--five months, excuse me.

Mr. HUBERT. What division or department of the Dallas Police Department?

Sergeant STEELE. I am presently in the patrol division.

Mr. HUBERT. Where were you on November 22, 23, and 24, 1963?

Sergeant STEELE. November 22 I was on a day off.

Mr. HUBERT. 23d?

Sergeant STEELE. 23d I worked in the Oak Cliff area.

Mr. HUBERT. And the----

Sergeant STEELE. And the 24th, of course, the regular assignment is in the Oak Cliff area, and I reported to that assignment.

Mr. HUBERT. Were you moved from that assignment?

Sergeant STEELE. I came to the city hall, came to the police station downtown early that morning to pick up some correspondence, telegrams, and things like that, to take to Officer Tippit's widow.

Mr. HUBERT. And what time was that?

Sergeant STEELE. That was approximately 9:15.

Mr. HUBERT. What happened after that?

Sergeant STEELE. Well, the captain was bringing in some of the patrolmen from in the field, from all the stations, and I asked Lieutenant Pierce if there was anything he needed me to do before I left, and he said, "Well--" told me I'd better stick around for a while. He might need me.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you do anything later on?

Sergeant STEELE. Well, I stayed there and in the patrol office for 15 or 20 minutes, and then the captain came in----

Mr. HUBERT. Which captain?

Sergeant STEELE. Captain Talbert, C. E. Talbert. He told me to come on and go with him, and he wanted to look the situation over outside. We walked down the stairs to the first floor where the corporation court is located and out the door on the Commerce Street--and there were several--they blocked those buildings directly across the street from the police building. He told me to get a man, or get as many people as I needed and check the buildings over there to make sure that there weren't any doors open, or somebody wasn't concealed inside the building. I got a patrolman, I believe it was Officer Jez. We went over there, checked all the doors in the front. They were all secure. We climbed up the fire escape and checked the roofs of all of the buildings directly across from the vehicular exit on the Commerce Street.

Mr. HUBERT. When that was completed, what did you do?