Chapter XXI: Part 21

Mr. HUBERT. When you got there, what time was it?

Captain MARTIN. I don't recall. It was a few minutes before 11, I believe.

Mr. HUBERT. What did you do?

Captain MARTIN. Well, I just got out there by the ramp and just stood there.

Mr. HUBERT. How long did you stand before the actual shooting of Oswald?

Captain MARTIN. I imagine I was down there 20 or 25 minutes.

Mr. HUBERT. I'm going to mark a chart. A chart of the basement area, as follows, to wit: "Dallas, Texas, March 24, Exhibit 5060, deposition of Capt. F. M. Martin." Signing it with my own name. Now, I would like to ask you, Captain, if you could sign the other three documents just below my name, that is to say, 5058 and 5059. Please initial a second page of 5058, below my initial and then sign 5059. I will ask you to sign for the purposes of identification under my name the document 5060. Now, Captain, it may be that you will want to look at this mockup here of the basement area, and then we will enter it on the map, but if you could show us where you stood on the mockup here, from the time you got down there at about 11, I think, until Oswald was shot, and you say you did not move around?

Captain MARTIN. I wasn't in one spot all this time, but when he came out, of course, there was a car sitting right--I guess the back end of the car was coming to about here [indicating].

Mr. HUBERT. All right, now, you are showing the back end of the car, and I am going to, with a pen draw in on Exhibit 5060, the approximate position of the back end of the car as you demonstrated it.

Captain MARTIN. Be about right there [indicating]. No; not that far. About right here.

Mr. HUBERT. About like so?

Captain MARTIN. Uh-huh.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, I have drawn on the map a rough image of a car, by using simply a square, and I have marked it "car". Now, would you take the pen, sir, and--your own pen, and mark by the use of a circle your position with reference to the car at the time of the shooting. Now, let's get that.

Captain MARTIN. I was about right here [indicating].

Mr. HUBERT. Now, would you just write in your own handwriting there, "The position of F. M. Martin at the time of the shooting." Now, Captain, you think you--you said you had been in that general basement area for about 20 minutes prior to the shooting?

Captain MARTIN. I would say that. I don't know for sure.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you see anybody you knew?

Captain MARTIN. Well, most of the press I knew. No one outside of the press that I knew.

Mr. HUBERT. You did know Jack Ruby, I understand?

Captain MARTIN. Yes; I knew Jack.

Mr. HUBERT. And I think, that is already in report?

Captain MARTIN. Yes; it is in here.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you see him?

Captain MARTIN. Not until after the shooting.

Mr. HUBERT. Were you looking at any time in the direction where you subsequently learned or believed he came from?

Captain MARTIN. No; not directly. Of course--Where is your map? I couldn't have seen him from--if I would have been, because there were people all along here [indicating].

Mr. HUBERT. That is to say, to your right, is that right?

Captain MARTIN. Yes; across here [indicating]. And all up in here [indicating].

Mr. HUBERT. There were people between--on your right, between you and----

Captain MARTIN. And----

Mr. HUBERT. And the Main Street ramp?

Captain MARTIN. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. How many people were there in that general area?

Captain MARTIN. I just would have to make an estimate.

Mr. HUBERT. That's right.

Captain MARTIN. I would say between me and where he was, there was 8 or 10 people.

Mr. HUBERT. I'm going to mark off an area in the Main Street ramp by just drawing with a pencil a square, and putting, "Area A," in it and I will ask you if you can tell us in the "Area A," marked on this map, what were the conditions with respect to the number of people and so forth. Not exactly. I know you didn't count heads, but just how crowded were the conditions?

Captain MARTIN. As well as I can remember there weren't too many people up in that--up that far. There were 2 or 3 cars parked in the ramp there.

Mr. HUBERT. You mean in the Main Street ramp?

Captain MARTIN. Now, wait a minute. You have got Main Street----

Mr. HUBERT. I marked this as "Area A," on Main Street?

Captain MARTIN. No, no; across this ramp there, there was quite a number of people.

Mr. HUBERT. That is in the space I have marked "Area A"?

Captain MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Roughly how many people?

Captain MARTIN. Oh, I'd say 15 or 20.

Mr. HUBERT. Were they standing shoulder to shoulder?

Captain MARTIN. Yes; more or less.

Mr. HUBERT. How many ranks deep would you think?

Captain MARTIN. I don't know.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, would you regard it as a crowd?

Captain MARTIN. Yes; I would. Mostly the press. There were some officers in that area also.

Mr. HUBERT. I think this Officer Harrison was----

Captain MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you see him?

Captain MARTIN. Yes, yes; he--he is one of my men. He was standing, oh, just about at the edge of the ramp there.

Mr. HUBERT. Would you mark on the map by the use of a circle where you think Harrison was at the time?

Captain MARTIN. Harrison was about right here [indicating].

Mr. HUBERT. That is at the time of the shooting?

Captain MARTIN. Yes; uh-huh.

Mr. HUBERT. Would you just extend this with a little line and then write out, "Position of"--what are his initials? W. J.?

Captain MARTIN. W. J.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, Captain Martin, let me see if I can get something clear. Was Detective Harrison in front of Oswald, or to one or the other sides of him?

Captain MARTIN. This happened so fast it is really hard to tell.

Of course, Oswald and the two officers came out this door.

Mr. HUBERT. That is the jail door?

Captain MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. When they got just about, oh, 2 or 3 feet from Harrison, there was a movement over here [indicating]. I couldn't tell what it was. I could tell there was a movement.

Mr. HUBERT. By "over here," you mean----

Captain MARTIN. On the ramp.

Mr. HUBERT. What side of the ramp? The basement--the garage?

Captain MARTIN. The garage. The garage side. Evidently Ruby was standing right here [indicating].

Mr. HUBERT. Now, when you say "here," you'd better put a mark and put a little arrow to it, your best recollection as to where Ruby must have been. You didn't see Ruby?

Captain MARTIN. No, no; this is just supposition. He had to be right in here somewhere.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, just put a mark and a line and indicate where he was.

Captain MARTIN. I didn't see him, but he had to be right there [indicating]. There is no question about that.

Mr. HUBERT. You did see someone come from that position?

Captain MARTIN. It was a movement. I didn't see anybody, but there was a movement in there that I could detect, and then the shot was fired.

Mr. HUBERT. What did you write here?

Captain MARTIN. "Ruby before the shooting." Or, "immediately before."

Mr. HUBERT. All right, just tell us what you observed?

Captain MARTIN. Well, as soon as the shot was fired, of course, it dumbfounded me, and I tried to get through the people there on my right, to get over there to it, and there was a lot of confusion in there, and I had trouble getting through the press, and when I did get through they had already taken Ruby into the jail office and Oswald was also in the jail office. Ruby was down on the floor just inside the jail, and Oswald was lying on the north side of the jail office.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, now, when Oswald first came out of the jail office with Graves and Leavelle, were you looking at him?

Captain MARTIN. I saw him come out. Now, whether it was--it was shortly after they come out--I saw him after the shot was fired.

Mr. HUBERT. You were looking towards him?

Captain MARTIN. Yes; I thought they were coming all around me and go up by me and go up to the armored car, that is what I had in mind.

Mr. HUBERT. You were not aware that the plans had been changed so that they--he was going to be taken in a police car, rather than in the armored car?

Captain MARTIN. No; I didn't know anything about it.

Mr. HUBERT. But, did you know anything about the route that was going to be used?

Captain MARTIN. No, as far as I knew, they were going to put him in the armored truck. That is the reason I was standing there, because I figured they would come right back there and I could go up there with them, but they didn't ever make it.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you observe what other officers were doing, or in what direction they were looking about the time that Oswald came out?

Captain MARTIN. No; I didn't personally observe it, except on TV later. At the time I didn't notice them.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, at the time that Oswald came out, you were looking where--you were looking towards Oswald, and if I understand it, you are not in a position to tell us now what other people were doing except what you saw later on television, is that right?

Captain MARTIN. That's right.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, now do you have, any comment about what you saw on--later on television?

Captain MARTIN. Well, it seems that all the officers were watching Oswald when they should have been watching the crowd.

Mr. HUBERT. But, that impression you formed by looking at the television coverage of it?

Captain MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And, you did not form that impression at the time the shot was fired?

Captain MARTIN. No; I hadn't noticed them then. In fact, I was over where I couldn't see them.

Mr. HUBERT. When was the first time that you did recognize Ruby as the man who shot Oswald?

Captain MARTIN. When I went in the jail office.

Mr. HUBERT. You didn't know it until then?

Captain MARTIN. No; I saw him on the floor. Then I heard somebody say it was Jack Ruby, and I went in there and saw him.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he say anything to you?

Captain MARTIN. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you hear him say anything at all?

Captain MARTIN. There was so much going on, I don't know whether he said anything or not. First thing I heard was somebody said, "He has been shot." And then there was confusion. I don't know who said that.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you have occasion to talk to Ruby at any time thereafter?

Captain MARTIN. No, no.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, Captain Martin, is there anything else you would like to say concerning any aspect of this matter at all?

Captain MARTIN. I--don't take this down.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, if you don't want to say it on the record, you'd better not say it at all.

Captain MARTIN. There is a lot to be said, but probably be better if I don't say it.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, I don't know what you mean by----

Captain MARTIN. Well----

Mr. HUBERT. That it would be better. What we are seeking to find out is the facts on it.

Captain MARTIN. I understand.

Mr. HUBERT. If what you have to say is more or less a matter of opinion, that is one thing. I don't want to ask you to express your opinion, but any facts you know that you think might bear upon this matter, I would ask that you state those facts.

Captain MARTIN. Well, there is not but one thing that I could say about the whole business. Of course, we are not experienced in handling this sort of a prisoner. I don't guess anybody is, as far as that goes, but the way I saw it, there was no organization at all. I didn't know who was in charge or anything about it. I don't guess anybody--either people should have been told something--what to do and what to expect. We weren't----

Mr. HUBERT. All right, sir. Have you any other facts that you think have any bearing upon----

Captain MARTIN. No, no; I don't think so. I think it is more or less in that report there [indicating].

Mr. HUBERT. That is to say, you are talking about the documents you have identified?

Captain MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, other than the interview that I had with you this morning, have you been interviewed by any member of the Commission staff?

Captain MARTIN. No, no.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, but I did interview you this morning just prior to lunch, I think at which time we arranged for you to come to have your deposition taken.

Captain MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you perceive at the present time any inconsistency between the interview with me this morning and your testimony in the deposition this afternoon?

Captain MARTIN. No, no. It is about the same.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you state anything, or provide any material, state any facts in the course of the interview this morning which has not been developed in the record this afternoon?

Captain MARTIN. I don't recall anything. If there is any you can think of, you can ask me and I will bring it out, but I don't recall a thing.

Mr. HUBERT. No, sir; I don't. I am just obliged to ask these questions to wrap it up.

Captain MARTIN. Uh-huh.

Mr. HUBERT. We certainly thank you, Captain Martin, and I thank you personally and on behalf of the Commission for your cooperation in this matter. If at any time, if you know that there are some other facts that you may have overlooked, please feel completely free to get in touch with us so that we may find out what that fact may be. In other words, it is never too late to reveal a fact which has been omitted as a lapse of memory.

Captain MARTIN. I don't know of a thing right now.

Mr. HUBERT. Thank you very much.

TESTIMONY OF BILLY JOE MAXEY

The testimony of Billy Joe Maxey was taken at 9:30 p.m., on March 25, 1964, in the office of the U.S. Attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr., assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. HUBERT. This is the deposition of--is that Billy Joe Maxey? It is not William?

Sergeant MAXEY. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Billy Joe Maxey?

Sergeant MAXEY. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. My name is Leon D. Hubert. I am a member of the advisory staff of the general counsel, Mr. J. Lee Rankin, on the President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy. Under the provisions of the Executive Order 11130, dated November 29, 1963, a joint resolution of Congress No. 137, and the rules and procedures adopted by the Commission in conformance with the Executive order and the joint resolution, I have been authorized to take a sworn deposition from you, Mr. Maxey. I state to you now that the general nature of the Commission's inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate and report upon the facts relating to the assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of Lee H. Oswald. In particular as to you, Mr. Maxey, the nature of the inquiry today is to determine the facts you know about the death of Oswald and any other pertinent facts you may know about the general inquiry. Mr. Maxey, you appeared here by virtue of a general request made by J. Lee Rankin, general counsel of the Staff of the President's Commission, and under the rules adopted by the Commission for the taking of these depositions, you are entitled to a 3-day written notice prior to the taking of the deposition. But the rules also provide that a witness may waive this. I now ask if you are willing to waive it?

Sergeant MAXEY. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Will you raise your right hand. Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Sergeant MAXEY. I do.

Mr. HUBERT. Please state your full name.

Sergeant MAXEY. Billy Joe Maxey.

Mr. HUBERT. And your age?

Sergeant MAXEY. Thirty-three.

Mr. HUBERT. Where do you reside, sir?

Sergeant MAXEY. 8912 Freeport Drive.

Mr. HUBERT. That in Dallas?

Sergeant MAXEY. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. What is your occupation?

Sergeant MAXEY. Field sergeant, Dallas Police Department.

Mr. HUBERT. How long have you been with the Police Department?

Sergeant MAXEY. Nine years, and approximately a half. Since September 20th, 1954.

Mr. HUBERT. What is your assignment today?

Sergeant MAXEY. Field sergeant, patrol division.

Mr. HUBERT. Is that the same assignment that you had during the period of November 22 and 24, 1963?

Sergeant MAXEY. Yes, sir. I was acting lieutenant on that particular day. Number 16.

Mr. HUBERT. What does that mean, "Number 16"?

Sergeant MAXEY. That is the call from the northeast substation.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you have any particular orders or functions with respect to the transfer of Oswald to the county jail?

Sergeant MAXEY. No, sir; not before I arrived at the central station.

Mr. HUBERT. What time did you arrive there?

Sergeant MAXEY. Somewhere in the vicinity of 11 a.m. I am not positive of the exact time.

Mr. HUBERT. What sort of an automobile were you driving then?

Sergeant MAXEY. A plain car, black 1963 model Ford.

Mr. HUBERT. That is to say, unmarked?

Sergeant MAXEY. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Where were you coming from?

Sergeant MAXEY. Northeast substation.

Mr. HUBERT. Had you been ordered in?

Sergeant MAXEY. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. How did you come to get there then?

Sergeant MAXEY. I had some cards to be taken to 511, where there were requests for off-duty employment, overtime work and I thought perhaps I might be able to assist them. I knew they were going to need all the help they could get down there that day.

Mr. HUBERT. You had not been ordered down there?

Sergeant MAXEY. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. What did you do with your car?

Sergeant MAXEY. I parked it on the north end of the garage.

Mr. HUBERT. Then what did you do?

Sergeant MAXEY. I approached Putnam. They were dispersing some traffic officers or some officers who worked traffic. They weren't in the traffic division, they were patrol officers, and asked him at this time if there was anything I could do, and he said, that if I would wait a few minutes I could probably go hop in Sergeant Dean's station wagon. I--he didn't elaborate, and I stayed there in the basement there for a few minutes. I don't know exactly how long and Lieutenant Pierce came down and Sergeant Putnam spoke to me, and said, "Why don't you go with us?" And I approached Lieutenant Pierce's car and he was in this--he was in his car at this time and asked him if he wanted me to go with him and he said, "Yes."

Mr. HUBERT. You were in uniform, I take it?

Sergeant MAXEY. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. So, what happened?

Sergeant MAXEY. So, I got into the back seat of Lieutenant Pierce's car. We started to drive out and Sergeant Putnam had to move some reporters back.

Mr. HUBERT. How many were there?

Sergeant MAXEY. I would say in the vicinity of 35. That is a guess, of course, I have no way of knowing.

Mr. HUBERT. That is the Main Street ramp?

Sergeant MAXEY. At the--that was at the bottom of both ramps, down right outside the jail door, and part of the people were blocking the Main Street ramp where we were going to make a turn and go out.

Mr. HUBERT. So, he cleared them out and the car followed behind him?

Sergeant MAXEY. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know what time it was, about, when he left?

Sergeant MAXEY. Well, now, at that time, I wasn't noticing the time, but since all this happened----

Mr. HUBERT. Well, I don't want you to state what knowledge you have gained since, because we can get at that other ways.

Sergeant MAXEY. Well, at that time I thought I had been in the basement approximately 10 or 15 minutes.

Mr. HUBERT. And you got there at 11 o'clock?

Sergeant MAXEY. Somewhere in the vicinity.

Mr. HUBERT. So, you would think that it would be around 11:15 or 11:16?

Sergeant MAXEY. Somewhere thereabouts.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, where were you seated in the car?

Sergeant MAXEY. On the left side in the back seat. That is the left side facing the way the automobile faces.

Mr. HUBERT. What did you observe when you got to the top of the ramp?

Sergeant MAXEY. The best I can remember when we pulled to the top of the ramp and paused, I was looking across Main Street. There was a group of people, a bus or something that attracted my attention--whatever it was I--it didn't amount to much.

Mr. HUBERT. Was that to your left, or to your right?

Sergeant MAXEY. That was----

Mr. HUBERT. Straight ahead?

Sergeant MAXEY. Almost straight ahead.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, when you got to the top of the ramp, did the car stop?

Sergeant MAXEY. I believe there was a momentary hesitation. I don't recall how long.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you see Officer Vaughn?

Sergeant MAXEY. I didn't pay any attention to him on the way out. Now, on the way in, yes.

Mr. HUBERT. That is to say when you were coming at 11 o'clock, you saw him?

Sergeant MAXEY. Yes, sir. I didn't pay any attention to him on the way out, as I say, I was looking across the street.

Mr. HUBERT. You don't recall having seen him at all?

Sergeant MAXEY. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you look to your right down Main Street in the direction of Pearl?

Sergeant MAXEY. I don't believe so. I don't remember if I did.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you look to your left down Main Street in the direction of Harwood?

Sergeant MAXEY. I don't believe so.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, your position is you didn't look either way?

Sergeant MAXEY. I don't believe I did.

Mr. HUBERT. Therefore, you didn't see anybody on either side?

Sergeant MAXEY. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, when you got around to the Commerce Street side had the shooting already taken place?

Sergeant MAXEY. Yes, sir; I suppose it had, because as we--correction--as the Lieutenant backed our car into position in front of the armored car, I heard the dispatcher call an ambulance code 3, to the basement and officers were rushing around, covering exits to the city hall, so apparently it happened just before we arrived. That had given them time to call the dispatcher by phone for an ambulance, would be my guess that we were on Harwood Street at the time that it happened.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you have any further connection with the event?

Sergeant MAXEY. We went to Parkland. Lieutenant Pierce, Sergeant Putnam, and I went to Parkland Hospital and set up security out there.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you talk with Jack Ruby at anytime?

Sergeant MAXEY. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know the man?

Sergeant MAXEY. I know him slightly. I know him by sight.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you see him in the ramp at anytime while you were driving up?

Sergeant MAXEY. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you see him at anytime that day at all, at any place?

Sergeant MAXEY. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, I am marking now three documents as indicated. This is a document, apparently a letter dated November 26, 1963, addressed to Chief J. E. Curry, the original of which is signed by you, and two pages. I am marking the first page, "Dallas, Texas, Exhibit--March 25, 1964, Exhibit 5094, from the deposition of B. J. Maxey," and signing my name below that on the first page, and I am putting my initials on the lower right-hand corner of the second page and I'll ask you to be reading that while I mark the second document, which is a report of an FBI interview of December 6, 1963, taken of you by FBI Agents Quigley and Dallman and I am marking that document, "Dallas, Texas, March 25, 1964, Exhibit No. 5095. Deposition of B. J. Maxey." I am signing my name, Leon D. Hubert underneath, and marking the second page of that document by my initial in the lower right-hand corner. The third document, I am marking in the margin, right-hand margin, "Dallas, Texas, March 25, 1964. Exhibit 5096. Deposition of B. J. Maxey," and signing my name Leon D. Hubert, Jr. I am marking the second page of that document with my initials in the lower right-hand corner, and the third page with my initials in the lower right-hand corner. I will ask you to read these two documents likewise, and I wish to ask you some questions about them.

Sergeant MAXEY. As far as the report here written to the chief, I would say that it is accurate at the time that I wrote it, and I am willing to sign it as is, and I--what page was it you wanted me to sign here?

Mr. HUBERT. Just under my name.

Sergeant MAXEY. All right.

Mr. HUBERT. Initial the second page.

Sergeant MAXEY. All right.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, now, you can turn to the next exhibit, which is----

Sergeant MAXEY. The FBI report. There are two of them there. I believe both of them are the same, aren't they? Wait a minute. One of them might possibly be a supplement.

Mr. HUBERT. No; they are different. One is on the 2d of December and the other is on the 6th, so, you'd better separate them. Do you have any comments to make on them?

Sergeant MAXEY. One of the things that I was going to bring up here, changes has been made in this one already, this second one.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, let's see, we are talking about Exhibit 5095.

Sergeant MAXEY. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. What comment do you wish to make?

Sergeant MAXEY. In the first report it was stated in there that the FBI report of December 3, I believe----

Mr. HUBERT. 2d.

Sergeant MAXEY. 2d?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Sergeant MAXEY. And the report of December 2, Exhibit 5096, it was stated that I saw ex-police officer Daniels and shoeshine boy at the end of the Main Street ramp. That was incorrect. I did not. That was hearsay. I heard that from other officers. I did not see them myself.

Mr. HUBERT. And, as a result of that error you then called the FBI and told them you wished to correct that, is that correct?

Sergeant MAXEY. No, sir; they came back out there.

Mr. HUBERT. They came back out and said what?

Sergeant MAXEY. And asked me some more questions regarding the shine boy. They ask me then did I recall the time and I know at the time I talked to them the first time I told them several things that I didn't see myself.

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Sergeant MAXEY. I told them things that I had heard and what have you, and I tried to differentiate between what I could actually testify and what I couldn't at this time he was talking to me.

Mr. HUBERT. Your present recollection is what then? Which is correct?

Sergeant MAXEY. My present recollection is that I didn't see Daniels. I didn't see the shine boy.

Mr. HUBERT. And that the information that you did give about seeing Daniels and the shine boy in the earlier deposition--I mean the earlier statement to the FBI, which is contained in Exhibit 5096 was erroneous in that you had not really seen them, but you had heard people talk about them?

Sergeant MAXEY. That's right.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, in all three statements, however, 5094 and 5095, and 5096, you stated then that you did see Officer Vaughn and yet, as I recall your testimony this evening you said that you did not recall having seen Vaughn.

Sergeant MAXEY. At the present time I don't, but those were written up close to the time all this happened, and I haven't seen one of those reports since, and lots that I don't remember right now that I remembered then, I am sure.

Mr. HUBERT. That's correct, and that's why I wanted you to correct this apparently contradictory statement.

Sergeant MAXEY. That's true, I understand that.

Mr. HUBERT. Because, we don't want to have the record, if we can, to have conflicts in it.

Sergeant MAXEY. Neither do I, I can assure you.

Mr. HUBERT. So, your statement is that you can't swear tonight that you saw Vaughn there?

Sergeant MAXEY. No; I can recollect at the time, how--at the time I was questioned about Vaughn, the main thing they wanted to know about him at that time was how far he had walked from his position to the curb. Whether he walked to the curb or out into the street which I didn't know.

Mr. HUBERT. And right now your mind is blank on Vaughn altogether, I take it?

Sergeant MAXEY. Actually, yes. I wasn't--right now I couldn't say.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, has anybody asked you to change your statement?

Sergeant MAXEY. No, uh-huh, so far as that goes, I haven't.

Mr. HUBERT. Have you spoken to anybody about it?

Sergeant MAXEY. As far as that goes I haven't talked to anybody about the statement.

Mr. HUBERT. You have talked to anybody about the possible conflict in your statement?

Sergeant MAXEY. Uh-uh.

Mr. HUBERT. I don't know how that comes out on the machine. I suppose you mean "no" by that.

Sergeant MAXEY. No; no. I'd like to say this: That as far as the conflicting statements are concerned, the only reason a person would have for getting together and getting his story straight would be to have something to hide, and I want it known right now I have nothing to hide, and I want it on the record.

Mr. HUBERT. Yes, sir; it is on the record. This is not an effort to cross you up in any way.

Sergeant MAXEY. I realize that.

Mr. HUBERT. But, you realize that these statements do exist, and the purpose of this deposition, among other things, is to determine the real facts, and when you run into a conflict like this, unless we ask for explanations we do not get a clear picture.

Sergeant MAXEY. That's true.

Mr. HUBERT. All right. I want to ask you again if you have any explanation, any other explanation to offer now as to conflicts, or is it just simply your opinion that insofar as Vaughn is concerned, your memory was better then than it is now about that event?

Sergeant MAXEY. Yes; I hadn't thought about it too much one way or the other since then. I will say excluding 4 or 5 days thereafter.

Mr. HUBERT. And as to Daniels and the colored boy, your statement now is that that was hearsay. You did not, yourself----

Sergeant MAXEY. That was hearsay, and I gave it to him as an--as a hearsay statement. That was a matter of semantics in my opinion.

Mr. HUBERT. So that the record can show we are all talking about the same documents, I would like you to sign below my signature and initial the pages of 5096 and 5095, with the understanding that this is not an approval by you of these statements at all, but simply as a means of identification that you and I were both talking about the same document. So, I would like you to sign my--just below mine and put your initials on the preceding pages.

Sergeant MAXEY. Where is your name?

Mr. HUBERT. My name is right down here in the margin. Just put it right in there. Then initial the other pages until you get to the second FBI statement and then sign under my name. In other words, where my name is signed, sign your name. Where my initials are, put your initials.

Sergeant MAXEY. Well, now, there is some more points that I want to bring up.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, let's do this anyhow, what we are doing.

Sergeant MAXEY. All right.

Mr. HUBERT. As I say, this is solely for the purposes of the record showing that we are talking about the same pieces of paper.

Sergeant MAXEY. All right.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, you have further corrections or comments you wish to make on these documents?

Sergeant MAXEY. Yes, sir; perhaps they are of no importance, and perhaps they are, but it is apparently a misunderstanding on the part--matter of semantics, again, and let's see--paragraph 5, on page 1, states here that--"A few minutes after that Lieutenant Pierce entered the garage driving a black car." Now, I don't remember him entering the garage. I believe his car was already parked down there.

Mr. HUBERT. Who is that?

Sergeant MAXEY. Lieutenant Pierce. I don't believe he drove into the police garage from outside. I believe his car was already parked in the basement.

Mr. HUBERT. All right. And other comments?

Sergeant MAXEY. Page 2, paragraph 8.

Mr. HUBERT. That is still 5095?

Sergeant MAXEY. Yes, sir; page 2, paragraph 8. That was the correction I advised the FBI office that I did not actually see Daniels and the shoeshine boy. That this was something I had overheard other officers talking about, and that has already been taken care of. Page 3, paragraph 10. This is concerning----

Mr. HUBERT. That is the 10th paragraph of--actually, the third paragraph, I guess, on that page.

Sergeant MAXEY. Well, it is part of a paragraph and a full paragraph.

Mr. HUBERT. Last paragraph on the third----

Sergeant MAXEY. No, sir; next to the last.

Mr. HUBERT. Oh, second to the last?

Sergeant MAXEY. Next to the last on the second page.

Mr. HUBERT. All right.

Sergeant MAXEY. It's concerning Jack Ruby. "He first met him----

Mr. HUBERT. Was that in quotes? You are reading that, aren't you?

Sergeant MAXEY. Uh-huh. It states here that I first met him about 2 years ago there that--at his place of business, that I had my wife with me.

Mr. HUBERT. With you?

Sergeant MAXEY. The correction would be that my wife was not with me.

Mr. HUBERT. Your wife was not with you?

Sergeant MAXEY. Not at the time I first met him.

Mr. HUBERT. So, that the record can be clear on a point, did you ever go there with your wife at some other time?

Sergeant MAXEY. Not the Carousel Club. The Vegas Club; yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Okay.

Sergeant MAXEY. And, let's see. I guess that's about it.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, that is to 5095. Have you any comments as to 5096? I think that is the one that contains your explanation on the previous point.

Sergeant MAXEY. No; second one is correct.

Mr. HUBERT. All right.

Sergeant MAXEY. Wait a minute. I didn't read this. That's all right.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you have anything more you want to say? Anything you want to add?

Sergeant MAXEY. No, sir; that's it.

Mr. HUBERT. All right.

Sergeant MAXEY. About all of it, those two statements.

Mr. HUBERT. I don't believe that there has been any previous interview between you and me?

Sergeant MAXEY. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Or any member of the Commission's staff?

Sergeant MAXEY. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, sir; thank you very much.

TESTIMONY OF LOGAN W. MAYO

The testimony of Logan W. Mayo was taken at 8:40 p.m., on March 26, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr., assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. HUBERT. This is the deposition of Mr. Logan W. Mayo. Mr. Mayo, my name is Leon D. Hubert. I am a member of the advisory staff of the general counsel on the President's Commission. Under the Executive Order No. 11130, dated November 29, 1963, a joint resolution of Congress No. 137, and the rules and procedures adopted by the Commission in conformance with the Executive order and the joint resolution, I have been authorized to take a sworn deposition from you, Mr. Mayo. So, I state to you that the general nature of the Commission's inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate and report upon the facts relating to the assassination of President Kennedy, and the subsequent violent death of Lee Harvey Oswald. In particular to you, the nature of our inquiry is to determine what the facts are that you know about the death of Oswald and any other pertinent facts you may know about the general inquiry. Mr. Mayo, you have appeared here tonight by virtue of a general request made by J. Lee Rankin, general counsel of the staff of the President's Commission by a letter written to J. E. Curry, chief of police asking him to make his officers, reserve and regular, available to the Commission. Under the rules adopted by the Commission you are entitled to a 3-day written notice prior to the taking of this deposition, but the rules also provide that the witness may waive this notice if he sees fit to do so. I am asking you if you are willing to waive that 3-day notice?

Mr. MAYO. Yes, sir; I am willing to waive the 3-day notice and cooperate with you in any way that I can.

Mr. HUBERT. Will you stand and raise your right hand. Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. MAYO. I do.

Mr. HUBERT. Will you state your full name?

Mr. MAYO. Logan W. Mayo.

Mr. HUBERT. Your age?

Mr. MAYO. Fifty-six.

Mr. HUBERT. Your residence?

Mr. MAYO. Dallas, Tex.

Mr. HUBERT. And what is your civilian occupation, sir?

Mr. MAYO. I am an accountant.

Mr. HUBERT. How long have you been in that profession, sir?

Mr. MAYO. Thirty-five years.

Mr. HUBERT. That is your own private business?

Mr. MAYO. No, sir; I am with Sears Roebuck & Company.

Mr. HUBERT. I see, and are you in charge of a division or something with that company?

Mr. MAYO. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Would you state what it is?

Mr. MAYO. In charge of accounting and the auditing and the accounts payable of the mail order catalog business.

Mr. HUBERT. In the Dallas----

Mr. MAYO. Dallas region.

Mr. HUBERT. How long have you been so employed by Sears Roebuck?

Mr. MAYO. Thirty-five years.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, you are also, as I understand, a member of the reserve on the Dallas Police Force?

Mr. MAYO. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. How long have you been with the reserve?

Mr. MAYO. Six years.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, did you have occasion to be called to duty on November 24, 1963, the Sunday after the President was shot?

Mr. MAYO. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Had you been on duty prior to that Sunday?

Mr. MAYO. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, I want to concern ourselves solely with the Sunday, right now.

Mr. MAYO. No; not on Sunday, not until I was called at 9 o'clock.

Mr. HUBERT. Yes; at 9 o'clock, you did get a call to come on duty?

Mr. MAYO. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Who was it from, do you remember?

Mr. MAYO. I think it was Sergeant Maxey.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he ask you to notify any other reservists?

Mr. MAYO. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Who were they, do you remember?

Mr. MAYO. He asked me to call the reservists in my squad, which consists of about six, seven people.

Mr. HUBERT. You are a lieutenant, aren't you?

Mr. MAYO. I'm a sergeant.

Mr. HUBERT. And you did call?

Mr. MAYO. I called the men, but none of them showed up. They had all gone to church, or was fixing to go to church. I contacted a lot of them and they were leaving to go to Sunday school and they had other plans and none of them could make it.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know a man by the name of Holly?

Mr. MAYO. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you get in touch with him?

Mr. MAYO. I got in touch with him and he said he would come down as soon as he got loose. I didn't see him at the city hall, though.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you speak to him?

Mr. MAYO. I called him on the phone.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you tell him what time he should get down there or what time the transfer was going to be?

Mr. MAYO. I told him he should try to be there between 10 and 10:30.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you tell him what time the transfer was going to be, or that you thought it was going to be, or anything of that sort?

Mr. MAYO. I told him it might be sometime between 10 and noon. I didn't know for sure.

Mr. HUBERT. You didn't see him any more after that?

Mr. MAYO. I didn't see him down at the city hall.

Mr. HUBERT. What time did you get to the city hall?

Mr. MAYO. I got there about 9:45.

Mr. HUBERT. Where were you stationed?

Mr. MAYO. I was stationed right here, at Commerce Street, guarding this entrance to the basement.

Mr. HUBERT. Let the record show that the witness is pointing to the mockup, and he points to the sidewalk area in front of the Commerce Street exit----

Mr. MAYO. That's right.

Mr. HUBERT. Of the police department. How long did you stay there, sir?

Mr. MAYO. I was there from about 10:15 until about 11:30.

Mr. HUBERT. You were what----

Mr. MAYO. Then, I left and went----

Mr. HUBERT. What were your duties?

Mr. MAYO. My duty was to guard the entrance to the basement.

Mr. HUBERT. When you say "guard," what do you mean?

Mr. MAYO. I was not to permit any people to go in there except maybe the press that had a certified press card.

Mr. HUBERT. Were you given any description of the kind of cards that you could honor?

Mr. MAYO. I was told that they probably would have a press card with their picture on it and their newspaper.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you have occasion to refuse entrance to anyone?

Mr. MAYO. Yes, sir; several people.

Mr. HUBERT. You turned them away?

Mr. MAYO. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Did some pass by you, that is to say, with your consent, after being properly identified?

Mr. MAYO. You mean enter the building?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Mr. MAYO. I let two in from newspapers.

Mr. HUBERT. And they were properly identified?

Mr. MAYO. They were properly identified. One of them had a two-wheeled cart, similar to a two-wheel golf cart and pulling some equipment on it.

Mr. HUBERT. What kind of equipment?

Mr. MAYO. It looked like cameras and typewriters.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know Jack Ruby or have you seen any pictures since in the paper?

Mr. MAYO. Yes, sir; I don't know him, but I have seen his picture.

Mr. HUBERT. Would you be willing to state that neither of those two men that you let in was Jack Ruby?

Mr. MAYO. Neither of those two men were him. They were smaller in stature. I want to tell you that at 11:30, I left the entrance and went to the other one on Main Street.

Mr. HUBERT. Let the record show that the witness is pointing to the mockup and when he says he left "this entrance," he was pointing to the Commerce Street entrance, and then he went to the----

Mr. MAYO. Main Street entrance?

Mr. HUBERT. Main Street entrance.

Mr. MAYO. The other----

Mr. HUBERT. Did you go to the building?

Mr. MAYO. I went in the building, stayed over there until 1:10.

Mr. HUBERT. Then what happened?

Mr. MAYO. I got off duty and went home.

Mr. HUBERT. You didn't go out to the Parkland Hospital?

Mr. MAYO. No, sir; I was asked to go, but didn't have any relief so they wanted the guard, there was about a hundred or so people congregating and coming up from church and everywhere else, and just a big crowd there, see, and I was needed there.

Mr. HUBERT. At the Main Street entrance?

Mr. MAYO. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. All right. Now, for purposes of identification I want to mark what purports to be a signed copy of a report to Chief Curry, dated December 3, 1963, and signed, actually, by Jack Revill, and F. I. Cornwall, by placing in the right-hand margin the following, "Dallas, Tex., March 26, 1964, Exhibit No. 5111, deposition of R. L. Mayo." I am signing my name under that, and I'll ask you if you have read that, Mr. Mayo? I mean read the letter?

Mr. MAYO. Yes, I have read that.

Mr. HUBERT. Would you endorse your name underneath it? I'm also endorsing a document which is a report of FBI Agent Wilkinson dated December 5, 1963, by placing on the right-hand margin the following: "Dallas, Tex., March 26, 1964, Exhibit No. 5112, deposition of H. L. Mayo." I'm signing my name and ask you to sign your name.

Mr. MAYO. What is this right here [indicating]?

Mr. HUBERT. I would like you to read it first. That's right.

Mr. MAYO. Do you want me to sign this? I talked to Mr. Wilkinson----

Mr. HUBERT. Yes. As far as you know, then, the contents of the documents marked 5111 and 5112, are correct reports of interviews to which they relate?

Mr. MAYO. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Let the record show that I am not taking out of the bound volume, Commission Document 81-A, page 70, the signed statement by Mr. Mayo. Mr. Mayo, do you have anything more to add? Anything new that has not been brought up in either this deposition or these two Exhibits, 5111 and 5112?

Mr. MAYO. Well, could you cut this off a minute and let's talk about it and see?

Mr. HUBERT. All right.

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. HUBERT. Let the record show that Mr. Mayo wanted to acquaint me with the general nature of another matter, but that after he had spoken a few sentences, it became apparent to me that it should be a matter of record, so, I will ask you now, Mr. Mayo, just simply to repeat what you have said to me in the last few sentences off the record.

Mr. MAYO. The first individual that tried to gain entrance into the basement said that he was a minister and he had a small book in his hand and I asked him what his business was. He said he wanted to go see Lee Harvey Oswald, that he was a friend of his, a minister that was supposed to help him, and he needed him, and he needed to go down there, and I told him "No, he could not enter without"--now, that is when I was on the Commerce Street side, and he hung around the entrance for some 20 minutes, I think, and he kept looking in the basement and acted very peculiar, but finally he left within about 20 minutes. He was tall, skinny, looked like over 6 feet tall, and looked like he was a man between 55 and 60.

Mr. HUBERT. How was he dressed?

Mr. MAYO. He had on a suit. I don't recall the color of it, but it was just a suit, business suit with a necktie.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he have a hat?

Mr. MAYO. Yes, sir; he had a hat on.

Mr. HUBERT. And a coat?

Mr. MAYO. I--yes.

Mr. HUBERT. A top coat?

Mr. MAYO. I don't believe that he had on----

Mr. HUBERT. Regular coat, suit coat, not an overcoat?

Mr. MAYO. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, you say you reported the fact to the----

Mr. MAYO. I mentioned that to Jack Revill, and they said, well, it was probably just like lots of people trying to gain entrance. They didn't think it had much value.

Mr. HUBERT. And he suggested that it be left out of your report?

Mr. MAYO. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Is there anything else?

Mr. MAYO. When I changed positions--stations, and went from Commerce Street to the Main Street side, about 10 minutes after Oswald had been placed in the ambulance, I cleared the way for them to get out of the entrance.

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Mr. MAYO. I went to the other side, and a large gentleman, well, he was slightly bald, weighed over 200 pounds, and walked with a limp. He came up to me and then said that he was a roommate of Jack Ruby, and that he wanted to go down and talk to him. And I told him he could not enter. I asked him what was the nature of his business and he said that Mr. Ruby had quite a sum of money on his person and he wanted to go down there and see if he wanted him to handle it for him. I told him he couldn't go down and he stayed up around there about 20 or 30 minutes, and finally went on down Main Street.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he give you his name?

Mr. MAYO. I didn't ask him his name. He didn't give me his name. I told him he couldn't enter--and he walked with a limp. I remember that. He was a large fellow. Had no tie on and slightly bald. No hat on.

Mr. HUBERT. And he claimed to be a roommate of Jack Ruby?

Mr. MAYO. Jack Ruby; yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Could you describe him otherwise, his hair, his height----

Mr. MAYO. I'd say he was over 6 feet tall, and much heavier than I am.

Mr. HUBERT. You have given all that information, I think. Did he have a coat on?

Mr. MAYO. No, sir; he had no coat on.

Mr. HUBERT. Just a shirt?

Mr. MAYO. Just a shirt, heavy shirt and no tie on.

Mr. HUBERT. And you gave that information to Jack Revill?

Mr. MAYO. I mentioned it to him and he said, well, just probably somebody knew him and trying to use an excuse to get in, so, he didn't feel like it was--it is my opinion it might be this fellow Senator that we have been hearing about. I don't know how you spell his name.

Mr. HUBERT. Can you estimate what time it was that this man, the heavy man, tried to get in to see Jack Ruby through the Main Street entrance?

Mr. MAYO. Sir, I would only have to estimate it at, I would say, around 11:45.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, anything else that you mentioned to Revill that was not put down?

Mr. MAYO. Yes, sir. I mentioned about the tourists. That is a man and a woman that hung around the entrance on the Main Street side and said they were just passing through Dallas, and they lived in Springfield, Ill., I believe they said, and they wanted to take some pictures, and they kept hanging around the entrance and they did take a few pictures and finally left. I don't know if they are connected with it or not.

Mr. HUBERT. Anyhow, you mentioned that episode to Jack Revill and he also was of the opinion that it was not important?

Mr. MAYO. Minor, minor.

Mr. HUBERT. Any other things then?

Mr. MAYO. Yes, sir. While I was on the Commerce Street side I had a Ford Fairlane car that came up about three times with two men in the front seat, and each time they would stop and ask me if he had come down--"What's happening?" I wondered then--now, I didn't mention that to Revill, because I didn't think about it at the time, but I wondered since then if they had some connection with this----

Mr. HUBERT. You did not mention that to Revill?

Mr. MAYO. No, sir; I didn't.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, you didn't take the license number?

Mr. MAYO. No, sir; it was just routine to me. They kept coming by.

Mr. HUBERT. And how many times did they pass you, do you know?

Mr. MAYO. Third time----

Mr. HUBERT. You saw them three times? Three times they came down Commerce?

Mr. MAYO. Came down--Commerce is one way going east, and they came down on my side and they slowed down and stopped and asked me, "Has he come down? Is anything happening?" And I would motion them on, because my job was to keep the street open.

Mr. HUBERT. And that happened three times?

Mr. MAYO. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. And after the third time, what happened? Is that when the shot was fired or something, or you didn't see them any more or----