Chapter XXVIII: Part 28

Mr. WORLEY. I said to the basement detail room.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Okay. Do you want to make a correction on there?

Mr. WORLEY. [Correcting.] I believe it is all right now.

Mr. GRIFFIN. If Exhibit 5047 as you have corrected it then accurately reflects what you told the FBI agents, would you initial and date the corrections that you have made on there?

Mr. WORLEY. You want me just to initial this down here?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Put initials where you have made corrections and a date afterwards.

Mr. WORLEY. [Signs and dates.]

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do the same thing with that one up there.

Mr. WORLEY. [Complies.]

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Would you also sign it down at the bottom and date it with your regular signature?

Mr. WORLEY. [Signs and dates.]

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, if these other copies that I have given you here, Worley Exhibits Nos. 5048 and 5049, are true and accurate copies of letters which you sent to Chief Curry, I would appreciate your also signing and dating those.

Mr. WORLEY. [Signs and dates.]

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, I want to direct your attention to Exhibit 5048, which is a copy of a letter which you addressed to Chief Curry, and which is dated November 26, 1963. Do you remember when it was that you actually wrote this letter?

Mr. WORLEY. It was that date.

Mr. GRIFFIN. It was. Now how did you happen to write that letter?

Mr. WORLEY. I was instructed by Reserve Coordinator Capt. J. M. Solomon, regular police captain, to write the letter to Chief Curry.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, where were you contacted? How were you contacted by Captain Solomon?

Mr. WORLEY. By telephone to my office.

Mr. GRIFFIN. At your office?

Mr. WORLEY. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you write that out in handwriting or did you have it typed, or what?

Mr. WORLEY. I wrote it out in handwriting and then had it typed.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who typed it?

Mr. WORLEY. Mr. Worley's secretary.

Mr. GRIFFIN. In your office?

Mr. WORLEY. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. The original typed copy of that--do you recall whether that was on a letterhead stationery or anything?

Mr. WORLEY. No; just on plain paper.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Plain letter paper?

Mr. WORLEY. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You indicated here in Exhibit 5048 that you were assigned to a position on the north side of the parking area to keep any cars away from the first two parking spaces. And you said that you stood at that post until about 10 or 15 minutes before Lee Harvey Oswald was shot.

Do you recall whether when you were moved from that post an armored car had been moved or attempted to move into the ramp?

Mr. WORLEY. It was backed in the ramp.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, do you recall anything that happened with respect to that armored car?

Mr. WORLEY. They couldn't get it down in the basement. It was just backed up to it as far up in the door as they could get it, because it wouldn't clear the top to come down in the basement.

Mr. GRIFFIN. During the time that you were down in the basement at your spot, do you recall whether any cars moved in or moved out of the parking area in the garage in the basement?

Mr. WORLEY. From the time that I was posted out there?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. WORLEY. Until when?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Until the time that you were removed from that post, did any traffic go in and out of there?

Mr. WORLEY. Yes; it was police cars coming in and out all the time.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did you stand at that post, to your best estimate?

Mr. WORLEY. Well----

Mr. GRIFFIN. I understand it is difficult. Do you think you were there an hour?

Mr. WORLEY. I was there over an hour.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now, in the period that you were standing at your post, do you recall any other reserve officers being stationed also guarding particular spots in the basement?

Mr. WORLEY. Well, there was quite a few reserve officers down in the basement, and they searched all the cars in that basement.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me ask you this, Mr. Worley. I am going to pull out here a chart, and I think we can talk a little easier about this chart. This is a map or chart which has been prepared originally by the Dallas Police Department on a much larger scale, and we have reduced the size of it, but it is a chart of the basement area.

Now, so you understand what is happening here, over here is Commerce Street, and over here is Main Street, and there is the jail office. Harwood would be out where your hand is, and Pearl Expressway would be over here closer to me.

Mr. WORLEY. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, will you look over there at Commerce Street. You will see that there is a heavy black line?

Mr. WORLEY. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, that heavy black line represents the basement wall. The basement, according to this diagram, actually extends out under the sidewalk, so at this point approximately where the sidewalk ends there is a dotted line. Now, that represents where the wall is if you were standing out on the sidewalk and were looking at the building. That is where the wall goes up on the outside, so that actually as you look at the diagram, you ignore the dotted line when you are in the basement, because it extends all the way.

And on the side near Main Street, we have the same kind of dotted line, and have the black line. It means the same thing.

Now, will you place on the chart an "X" on the spot that you were stationed by Sergeant Croy?

Excuse me; I want to correct the record. You have stated in your letter of November 26 that Captain Arnett placed you at a point in the basement. Can you show us where Captain Arnett placed you?

Mr. WORLEY. Right here [indicating].

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now, would you put a circle around that "X"?

Mr. WORLEY. [Complies.]

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, at the time you were placed there, had the search of the basement commenced?

Mr. WORLEY. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. At the time you were placed there, were any other reserve officers stationed at any other spots in the basement?

Mr. WORLEY. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you remain there during the search?

Mr. WORLEY. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall, and I am only asking for your recollection, and if you don't remember, state that, do you recall seeing anybody come over to this area marked stairs up and do anything there?

Mr. WORLEY. There was a telephone man tried to go out that stairway, and I happened to know the telephone man. I don't know what his name is, but he comes to our building frequently and works, is the reason I recognized him. And he tried to get out this door, and he was stopped by a regular officer and asked for his credentials.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And then was he allowed to go out that door?

Mr. WORLEY. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. About what time was that?

Mr. WORLEY. About 10 o'clock.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you observe anybody lock that door? I am asking for your recollection?

Mr. WORLEY. No; I didn't.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me ask you this: Did you watch the search of the basement?

Mr. WORLEY. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you watch anybody search over in this area by the elevators and the stairs?

Mr. WORLEY. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you see them do? Who did you see search over in that area, if you recall?

Mr. WORLEY. I don't recall any of the officers names.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall his rank?

Mr. WORLEY. I am not sure, but I think it was a sergeant, regular officer.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was he a regular sergeant?

Mr. WORLEY. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was anybody else with him, if you recall?

Mr. WORLEY. I don't believe so.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, could you tell us what he did over in that area?

Mr. WORLEY. Well, these elevator doors were closed.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. WORLEY. And he checked the door to see if it was locked, and it was. He couldn't even go out. He couldn't open the door.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he have anybody with him at the time that he checked that door?

Mr. WORLEY. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, do you have a clear recollection of this?

Mr. WORLEY. That is hard to say.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You know sometimes we have a visual image, and sometimes there is something that happened or for some reason that you know you watched this. Is there anything----

Mr. WORLEY. Well, there was people that they brought in a bunch of reserve officers in the basement from the detail room, and they came out in here and they started back in here.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You are now sort of indicating back in the area toward Main Street underneath the sidewalk?

Mr. WORLEY. And he searched all these cars back in here to see that, I guess, that there was nobody in there. They didn't tell me, but they were searching back in here, and he just covered this back all the way to the ramp here. Then they went right on around and covered the whole parking area down in the basement back to me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now, those people were sort of moving in a group?

Mr. WORLEY. Right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, when this regular sergeant got over to the doorway, was that group with him?

Mr. WORLEY. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Or was he alone?

Mr. WORLEY. No. I am almost positive that he was over here while they were searching back over here, and he was by himself.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. Now, do you recall this particular officer going to the service elevator?

Mr. WORLEY. No; I don't.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall if at any time there was somebody in that service elevator?

Mr. WORLEY. No; I don't.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall seeing any building personnel down in the basement?

Mr. WORLEY. Yes; I do. Porters. And I don't recall how many. I saw some porters and maids, and I am pretty sure that they were on this elevator.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Service elevator?

Mr. WORLEY. Yes; it was standing there with the door open, and somebody told them to go on up in the building, and close that elevator off.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, do you recall when that was in relationship to the search of the basement?

Mr. WORLEY. It was before they searched the basement.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall who that officer was that did that?

Mr. WORLEY. No; I don't.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Would you be able to state whether it was that officer who talked to those maids and porters? Was it the same officer, the same sergeant who also checked this door?

Mr. WORLEY. There was none.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You think you would recognize either one of those officers if you saw them again?

Mr. WORLEY. No; I don't think so.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is there anything that makes you, in your mind, convinced about one sergeant than the other officer who checked the service elevator?

Mr. WORLEY. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. So, are you able to explain for the record--I am not trying to trip you up or anything--I am trying to probe your recollection here--are you able to explain to us how it is that you recall that they were different officers?

Mr. WORLEY. No; I am not.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Different heights?

Mr. WORLEY. No; there is nothing that would be--maybe I am thinking that they were even the same person, or different people.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And in other words, your answer is that you just don't know if they were the same?

Mr. WORLEY. I don't know. It could have been the same person or could have been two different people.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right, now. Do you recall ever seeing anybody go over into this area that is marked, where it says "To engineroom", and check anything over in that area?

Mr. WORLEY. I saw them search over that way but from where I was, I couldn't tell whether they were back in here or not.

Mr. GRIFFIN. After the search was over, do you recall if any other officers were stationed down in the basement?

Mr. WORLEY. Yes. There were some more reserve officers down in the basement stationed there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you mark where the reserves were? Why don't you put a "R" and a circle around it where there was a reserve.

Mr. WORLEY. This is Lt. Ben McCoy, reserve officer. I stationed him there myself.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did you station him? Why don't you write "McCoy" under his name then?

Mr. WORLEY. Yes. Captain Arnett was over here [indicating].

Mr. GRIFFIN. Put an "A" in front of the circle. All right, now, any other reserve officers that you recall?

Mr. WORLEY. There was a reserve officer down here, and I don't know his name.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Put an "R" there and question mark under it. Were there any regular officers stationed any place in the basement?

Mr. WORLEY. There was a regular sergeant right here for quite awhile. I couldn't say approximately how long.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was he there a half hour before Oswald was shot?

Mr. WORLEY. Oh, yes; I would say it was about maybe an hour or before.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I don't mean for what length of time, but when did he leave that spot?

Mr. WORLEY. About an hour. I would say an hour before Oswald was shot.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall any officers being stationed by the elevators?

Mr. WORLEY. Yes; there was a regular officer there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Why don't you put a circle there and write "regular" under it where that man was? Now, do you recall any other regular officer?

Mr. WORLEY. No; I don't.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And the time that you left, that was sometime after the armored car arrived?

Mr. WORLEY. Right. The armored car was backed into this ramp.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Commerce Street ramp. Do you recall whether or not any of these men had been moved?

Mr. WORLEY. No; I don't.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have any recollection of seeing any of these particular men in the basement at the time Lieutenant McCoy reassigned you?

Mr. WORLEY. Yes. Captain Arnett and Lieutenant McCoy and this officer were in the basement when I left.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about this officer up here?

Mr. WORLEY. I couldn't say.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You went to the corner of Commerce and Central Expressway?

Mr. WORLEY. The next block down. This is Central Expressway, and the next block is north, northbound.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you walk out?

Mr. WORLEY. Went up the south ramp by the armored car, sitting right here. And I went on this side of it, which would be--I am trying to place that. That would be east side of the armored car. Walked down the sidewalk two blocks to the corner of Commerce and Central Expressway, northbound.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you recognize Jack Ruby if you saw him?

Mr. WORLEY. Now?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you recognize him then?

Mr. WORLEY. Right now?

Mr. GRIFFIN. No; at the time you walked down that street, would you have recognized him if you had seen him?

Mr. WORLEY. I don't believe I would. The only time that I had ever seen the man was when I was working with squad 105, and we made the place that he owned down there. We just made a frequent call, or just stopped in there to see if there was any trouble or anything, and then went on.

I met him one night, and I had seen him when I was in there. But those places are kind of dimly lit and you don't see too much in them, and really and truly, I didn't pay too much attention to meeting him anyway.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, do you recall if any time after the armored car arrived any automobile came in or out of the basement area after the armored car arrived?

Mr. WORLEY. No; I don't believe so. I don't believe a car came down the ramp after that armored car was backed in there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see any cars drive out of the basement after the armored car came down?

Mr. WORLEY. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you see any television cameras in any area of the basement after the armored car arrived?

Mr. WORLEY. There were television cameras in the basement before that armored car arrived.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. As you walked up the Commerce Street ramp, where did you see television cameras?

Mr. WORLEY. When I was assigned to the basement, in these first two stalls right here, they were putting these cameras up right behind. There is a rail that runs right along there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you mark the spot where the TV cameras were? Why don't you put a box?

Mr. WORLEY. Two cameras. Two or three. There was so much confusion down there that day.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When you walked out to go up the Commerce Street ramp, do you recall what television cameras you saw?

Mr. WORLEY. Down in the basement?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. WORLEY. These two cameras that were here, that had been there all the time.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall seeing any other TV cameras as you walked out? Did you see any up here by the armored car?

Mr. WORLEY. I don't recall of seeing any.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right, did you see any down on the ramp or in the garage area, or up on this ramp?

Mr. WORLEY. No; I didn't.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now you indicate in here that, in your letter or statement of November 30, that you saw from your position a man jump over the railing, saw a man come down the north ramp, which would be the Main Street ramp, and jump over the railing in the parking area, is that right?

Mr. WORLEY. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long was that before you left the basement, would you say?

Mr. WORLEY. Hour or hour and a half.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have any thought that that man was Jack Ruby?

Mr. WORLEY. It wasn't.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, between the time--I notice this is the second report, letter--that was you got this letter of November 30?

Mr. WORLEY. Yes; I was interviewed by these two special service officers, and they took this statement.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you come to describe that man? How did that come about? Did they ask you if you saw anybody jump over a railing, or anything like that?

Mr. WORLEY. Yes; they did.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, prior to the time that you prepared this letter of November 30, had you talked with anybody about having seen this man jump over the railing?

Mr. WORLEY. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I want you to think carefully. After the time, did you hear anybody else say--prior to the time you drafted the letter, that he saw a man jump over the railing?

Mr. WORLEY. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you get any indication from Lieutenants Cornwall and Revill as to how they came to inquire about that particular man?

Mr. WORLEY. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Or about a man jumping over the railing?

Mr. WORLEY. All they did is ask me if I saw anybody come down that ramp in particular. And I stated that I had seen that man come down and jump over that rail there in the basement, and he was challenged by an officer and he identified himself and the officer let him go on.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, let me understand this then, I think your answer to me initially was that these two lieutenants asked you specifically if you saw a man jump over the railing?

Mr. WORLEY. No; asked me if I saw anybody come down the ramp.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I see.

Mr. WORLEY. And then I told them about the incident of the man jumping over the rail.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you interviewed in a room with other officers when Lieutenants Cornwall and Revill conducted this interview? Had a number of reserve officers been assembled together and they talked with them?

Mr. WORLEY. No; I was told to report to that special service office at a certain time, and there was one other officer in the room when I came in.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who was that officer?

Mr. WORLEY. Lt. Ben McCoy.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was he interviewed before you or after you?

Mr. WORLEY. He was just fixing to leave.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have any conversation with him?

Mr. WORLEY. Spoke to him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you mention anything about this man to him?

Mr. WORLEY. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. About the man coming down the ramp?

Mr. WORLEY. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When you finished with the interview, do you remember who the next man was behind you?

Mr. WORLEY. No; I don't.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall what time in the morning, day or night, your interview was with Revill?

Mr. WORLEY. It was, oh, I believe, November 30 was on a Saturday that I came up there. It was a Saturday, because I was off. I was at home, and I came up there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was that in the morning or afternoon?

Mr. WORLEY. It was in the morning.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall whether they had interviewed reserve officers, had set up appointments for reserve officers prior to Saturday?

Mr. WORLEY. I don't know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know the name of each reserve officer over here?

Mr. WORLEY. No; I sure don't.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you seen that reserve officer since the time Oswald was shot by Ruby?

Mr. WORLEY. No; I wouldn't recognize him if I saw him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You wouldn't recognize him again when you saw him? I am talking about the reserve officer about whom you have placed a question mark on the chart. Do you have anything further that you want to tell the Commission that you think might be of any use to them?

Mr. WORLEY. I don't know of anything else that I could add to it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, let me ask you this: Have you been interviewed by any member of the Commission staff prior to this deposition?

Mr. WORLEY. No; I haven't.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I will make this one last general request. If anything comes to your attention which you believe could be of assistance to the Commission would you come forward with it, regardless of what your personal feelings may be and so forth?

Mr. WORLEY. Yes; I would.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I will appreciate that.

Mr. WORLEY. I sure would.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Okay.

Mr. WORLEY. Glad I met you.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Nice to have met you. [Add this to Worley]:

After Mr. Worley left, I realized that I neglected to get him to sign the chart that we had been using to explain the various positions in the basement, and the court reporter says that was because I was hurried. And I notice in looking at this I also neglected even when I corrected this afterward to write after Mr. Worley the date, so I will write that in now. 3-26-64. And I wrote that in a space between the word Mr. Worley and an exhibit number which I had already put on there, Exhibit 5050.

TESTIMONY OF LT. WOODROW WIGGINS

The testimony of Lt. Woodrow Wiggins was taken at 11 p.m., on March 24, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr., assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. HUBERT. This is the deposition of Lt. Woodrow Wiggins of the Dallas Police Department. Lieutenant Wiggins, my name is Leon Hubert, Jr. I am a member of the advisory staff of the general counsel on the President's Commission. Under the provisions of the President's Executive Order 11130, dated November 29, 1963, the joint resolution of Congress No. 137, and the rules of procedure adopted by the Commission in conformance with the Executive order and joint resolution of Congress, I have been authorized to take the sworn deposition from you, Lieutenant Wiggins. I state to you now that the general nature of the Commission's inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate, and report upon the facts relating to the assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of Lee Harvey Oswald. Now, in particular to you, Lieutenant Wiggins, the nature of the inquiry tonight, is to determine what facts you know about the death of Oswald and the other pertinent facts you may know about the general inquiry. You have appeared here today by virtue of a general request made to Chief Curry by the general counsel of the staff of the President's Commission, to wit, Mr. J. Lee Rankin, who wrote him a letter asking you all be made available. The rules of the Commission provide that you be entitled, if you wish, to a 3-day written notice prior to the taking of this deposition, but the rules also provide that if a witness cares to do so, he may waive the 3-day written notice and, so, I now ask you if you are willing to waive this 3-day written notice which otherwise you would be entitled to?

Lieutenant WIGGINS. Yes; I am willing to waive it.

Mr. HUBERT. So, will you stand and raise your right hand and be sworn.

Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Lieutenant WIGGINS. I do.

Mr. HUBERT. Please state your full name.

Lieutenant WIGGINS. Woodrow Wiggins.

Mr. HUBERT. Your age?

Lieutenant WIGGINS. Forty-six.

Mr. HUBERT. Where do you reside, sir?

Lieutenant WIGGINS. 319 West Corning Street, Dallas, Tex.

Mr. HUBERT. What is your occupation?

Lieutenant WIGGINS. I'm a lieutenant on the Dallas Police Department.

Mr. HUBERT. How long have you been in the Dallas Police Department?

Lieutenant WIGGINS. Eighteen years.

Mr. HUBERT. How long have you been an--a lieutenant?

Lieutenant WIGGINS. Since October 1, 1956.

Mr. HUBERT. What particular department do you serve with, sir?

Lieutenant WIGGINS. I am with what is known as the service division. I have under my control the dispatcher's office, the jail and the service division and all the substations.

Mr. HUBERT. Who is your immediate superior?

Lieutenant WIGGINS. Chief Lumpkin.

Mr. HUBERT. Lumpkin, and over him would be----

Lieutenant WIGGINS. Chief Batchelor.

Mr. HUBERT. Then, of course, Chief Curry?

Lieutenant WIGGINS. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. So, the line of command between you and Chief Curry is Batchelor, Lumpkin, then Wiggins?

Lieutenant WIGGINS. That's right.

Mr. HUBERT. What are your particular duties?

Lieutenant WIGGINS. That depends, of course. Could I quote here and say that on certain times I have different duties?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Lieutenant WIGGINS. That I have a jail lieutenant that works for me, on his days off, I watch the jail, or pass on prisoners and supervise the jail as well as the other things, and when the jail lieutenant is there then I am at liberty to inspect substations and do--the dispatcher's offices and the jail, wherever I may be needed.

Mr. HUBERT. On November 24, what was your situation?

Lieutenant WIGGINS. I was working the jail. My jail lieutenant was off that day.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, working the jail entails what responsibilities and duties?

Lieutenant WIGGINS. I'm in charge of everything that goes on in the jail, and among other duties, I pass on all prisoners that are put into jail.

Mr. HUBERT. When you say "pass," on them, what do you mean?

Lieutenant WIGGINS. I check to see their--the arrest is legal, and that I think the charge is proper and that this person belongs in jail before he is placed in jail.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, have you any duties or responsibilities with respect to the transfer of prisoners, in your capacity as jail lieutenant?

Lieutenant WIGGINS. Nothing more than as is normal to turn them over to either the constable or deputy sheriff who transfers them to the county jail.

Mr. HUBERT. With reference to prisoners who are transferred from the city jail to the county jail, is it customary for your department to transfer them to the county jail, or is it customary for the State deputies to come and get the prisoner?

Lieutenant WIGGINS. It is customary for the deputy sheriff or constable to come and get a prisoner.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know why an exception was made in the case of Oswald?

Lieutenant WIGGINS. I was never told.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, normally, it would have been Sheriff Decker's duty to come and get Oswald, is that correct?

Lieutenant WIGGINS. Normally, it would have been that way.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know, or did you ever hear it discussed, the reason why the normal procedure was not followed?

Lieutenant WIGGINS. No; I haven't. When I make that statement--I have surmised that it was for better protection due to the fact that we have more men, possibly, than Sheriff Decker did. That is strictly a surmise of mine, of my own.

Mr. HUBERT. What security had you provided for Oswald within the jail itself?

Lieutenant WIGGINS. Well, as a rule, we used a trustee to run our jail elevator. I relieved the trustee from the jail elevator and placed a patrolman on it. And put two officers in front of Oswald's cell at all times.

Mr. HUBERT. That is on the 24th, or at all times since he was arrested?

Lieutenant WIGGINS. Well, that was--the 24th, was my first day back since that time. I had been off 2 days prior to that.

Mr. HUBERT. And when you came on duty on the 24th, did you find that security which you have described, already in existence?

Lieutenant WIGGINS. I found that they had one officer in front of the cell, but that they didn't--they still had a trustee running the elevator.

Mr. HUBERT. And you changed that. You took the trustee off and put an extra man on the cell?

Lieutenant WIGGINS. That's right.

Mr. HUBERT. I suppose that Oswald was moved in the course of the 24th a couple of times for interviews and so forth?

Lieutenant WIGGINS. I know that I received a call from the fifth floor that some detectives from the homicide bureau were up there to take him out on what they call a "tempo," and this is to take him out for interrogation.

Mr. HUBERT. When he was taken out that way, was he accompanied by the guard that you assigned?

Lieutenant WIGGINS. No; the guard could not take him to the interrogation room.

Mr. HUBERT. And "tempo," is a receipt for a prisoner which relieves you, temporarily, of the duties you have with respect to him?

Lieutenant WIGGINS. That's true.

Mr. HUBERT. And when he is brought back, your duties and responsibilities for his custody attach to you again?

Lieutenant WIGGINS. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, did you have anything to do with the search of the basement for security?

Lieutenant WIGGINS. No, sir; I was in and out of the basement looking it over, but I had no duties with the basement.

Mr. HUBERT. I understand. Did you remain in the jail office performing your functions as to incoming prisoners?

Lieutenant WIGGINS. That's true.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you know of any of the plans for removal of Oswald, or the transfer?

Lieutenant WIGGINS. I knew of no plans. I had been informed by the platoon that--I believe that it was understood that he would be transferred after 10 o'clock in the morning. Now, that was----

Mr. HUBERT. No one gave you any orders or assigned any duties to you in connection with the transfer?

Lieutenant WIGGINS. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Did any sheriff come with a warrant for his release?

Lieutenant WIGGINS. Not to my knowledge.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, under normal circumstances would you allow a prisoner to be removed by the city police?

Lieutenant WIGGINS. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. He would be out of your custody on "tempo," is that right?

Lieutenant WIGGINS. Not necessarily. Let me say this: that the--that the city police transfer prisoners on occasion over to the county jail.

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Lieutenant WIGGINS. But, this is rare. It is--there are instances I can name. For instance, they have filed on a prisoner and just for courtesy to the prisoner, more or less, he wants to get to the county and they just transfer him on down to the county themselves.

Mr. HUBERT. How do you relieve yourselves of responsibility in those circumstances?

Lieutenant WIGGINS. Each prisoner who is transferred, the card is signed, or the name of the officer that is making the transfer is placed on his card. His property is turned over to the officer making the transfer.

Mr. HUBERT. Was this done in this way?

Lieutenant WIGGINS. No; in this case, they were going to take the property later.

Mr. HUBERT. Naturally, he was in the custody of Captain Fritz at the time of the transfer, isn't that right?

Lieutenant WIGGINS. That's right.

Mr. HUBERT. He had been released from your custody by a "tempo" card to Fritz?

Lieutenant WIGGINS. That's true.

Mr. HUBERT. And Fritz could do what he wanted with him? Until he relieved himself of the obligation of the "tempo" card by putting him back in your custody?

Lieutenant WIGGINS. That's true.

Mr. HUBERT. When were you first aware that Oswald was going to be moved in the immediate future?

Lieutenant WIGGINS. When was I aware that he was en route, or----

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Lieutenant WIGGINS. Or, being moved to the county?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Lieutenant WIGGINS. I'd say possibly a minute before the shooting occurred, they called me--someone called me from the--Captain Fritz' office, the homicide bureau, and told me they were en route down the elevator with Oswald, and I know that when I hung the phone up I looked in and could tell by the elevator lights it was on the way down.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, in your statement you fix that moment at 11:20. How do you fix that? Do you remember now how you fixed that?

Lieutenant WIGGINS. I remember looking at our clock as they came by. I don't know why, but I looked, just to be sure.

Mr. HUBERT. That is the big electric clock, that is on the wall there?

Lieutenant WIGGINS. Big electric clock on the wall there.

Mr. HUBERT. The wall that is adjacent to the ramp?

Lieutenant WIGGINS. Well, I don't know what you mean, "adjacent to it," it is directly--on the wall directly in front of the hallway.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, as you come into the jail office, from the corridor, that clock is on the wall to your right?

Lieutenant WIGGINS. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Is that an electric clock?

Lieutenant WIGGINS. Yes, sir; it is.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you all check it frequently?

Lieutenant WIGGINS. No; but maybe just occasionally might call the bank to get the time, but----

Mr. HUBERT. Will you estimate just how accurate that clock is, normally, and was on the day in question, the 24th?

Lieutenant WIGGINS. No; I would say that it was possibly, I'm sure, not over 2 to 3 minutes off either way.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you think that there could be a 6 minutes difference?

Lieutenant WIGGINS. No; I certainly don't.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, you see what I mean. In other words, you say it could be 3 minutes off either way, then there could be a difference--no, I see what you mean. Could be a difference of only 3 minutes. Have you ever known it to be that much off?

Lieutenant WIGGINS. Not to my knowledge. I don't recall the time that I----

Mr. HUBERT. As a matter of fact, being an electric clock the only thing that will stop it from working is if the current went off, is that right?

Lieutenant WIGGINS. Yes, sir. And, now, I don't recall on any particular details of ever having set that clock for--or anyone having set it. I don't know.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you rely on that clock for timing other events in your business of running the jail office?

Lieutenant WIGGINS. Repeat that question. I am not sure I understand what you mean.

Mr. HUBERT. I take it that the time of various events, like the time of a prisoner's release on bond, or the time that he is actually brought in is a matter of record in some instances, with the police?

Lieutenant WIGGINS. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, the time and the entry of that time on the record is a part of your function?

Lieutenant WIGGINS. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you rely on that clock?

Lieutenant WIGGINS. Most of the time. Sometimes I look at my watch, but most of the time I look at the clock.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, 11:20, you have as the time you first noticed the elevator coming down, and in a few seconds after that I guess they passed by?

Lieutenant WIGGINS. No, sir; the time at 11:20 that I am speaking of, I remember I looked at the clock as they were coming out of the elevator.

Mr. HUBERT. It was 11:20 just then?

Lieutenant WIGGINS. Of course, that is only a matter of seconds.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, they passed by you?

Lieutenant WIGGINS. As they came down, and as they came off the elevator Captain Fritz was the first man off, and he said, "Are they ready?" And I know that then I stepped out of the door, and I don't recall whether I ever answered him or not, but I stepped out into the corridor first. If I would have answered him I am sure I have--would have told him that it was ready, but I don't recall whether I did or didn't because I presumed they were ready, as everyone else did, and I know I stepped out into the corridor, to the left as you went out the door. I stepped to the left possibly 3 or 4 feet from the door, and they passed me then.

Mr. HUBERT. On your right?

Lieutenant WIGGINS. Yes, sir; they passed me with Oswald at that time, and had proceeded past me approximately 6 or 7 feet when the incident happened.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you see any shooting at all?

Lieutenant WIGGINS. I heard the shot, and did see the gun, but at--but not at the time of the shooting. I saw the gun after the officers had grabbed it and had swarmed Jack Ruby.

Mr. HUBERT. Describe Jack Ruby coming out of the group.

Lieutenant WIGGINS. I saw a man coming out. I had no idea who it was, but, I mean, it happened so quickly I caught it in the corner of my eye, and I saw him out of the corner, saw him coming out of the crowd, but I didn't know at that time who it was.

Mr. HUBERT. Just about what position in the crowd did he come from?

Lieutenant WIGGINS. If you were familiar with that location I could tell you exactly.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, now, we have here a mockup of the area, and also a corresponding chart that you can use, and for purposes now of identifying it, I am going to mark this document as follows, "Dallas, Tex., March 24, 1964. Exhibit No. 5076, deposition of Woodrow Wiggins." And I am signing my name to it, and I ask you, for the purpose of identification to sign beneath my name. Now, first of all, you--using the mockup to get your own position, and then secondly, I ask you to mark on this chart that we have identified your position by placing a circle actually at the place where you were.

Lieutenant WIGGINS. Where my position was?

Mr. HUBERT. At the time the shot was fired.

Lieutenant WIGGINS. All right, sir. I had come out of this door and I had stepped to along here, just about there [indicating].

Mr. HUBERT. Just put a circle there.

Lieutenant WIGGINS. Okay.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, I am writing--you have marked a little mark there and I have put a circle around it and I am marking here, "Position of Wiggins at the time of the shot." And circling that, is that correct?

Lieutenant WIGGINS. That is prexactly (sic) correct.

Mr. HUBERT. Now on that same map would you put a mark which I am also going to circle later and identify as to the spot as best you can recollect it where you first saw Ruby coming out.

Lieutenant WIGGINS. The spot where he was?

Mr. HUBERT. Where he was.

Lieutenant WIGGINS. When I saw him?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes; the spot where he was when you saw him. Now, look at the mockup first and get your distances.

Lieutenant WIGGINS. I have an idea or just about----

Mr. HUBERT. Would you just mark it there, the spot there were you first saw Ruby?

Lieutenant WIGGINS. Approximately. I could miss this a foot or 2, you understand that?

Mr. HUBERT. All right.

Lieutenant WIGGINS. All right. Now, your cameras were over here behind the--behind this with the lights, and where I saw him, he was approximately, I'd say, about there [indicating].

Mr. HUBERT. Now, I am marking this--Lieutenant Wiggins has marked a spot in the basement area. I am putting a circle around that spot, and connecting it with a line, I am writing "Position of Ruby when seen by Wiggins." Is that correct, sir?

Lieutenant WIGGINS. Yes. Now, this spot that I would be--that I would say to be to where I first noticed that--the movement that attracted my attention right there.

Mr. HUBERT. All right.

Lieutenant WIGGINS. And by the time that I had time to think and look, it was over, but that is approximately the place.

Mr. HUBERT. All right. You had known Jack Ruby before this, I understand?

Lieutenant WIGGINS. Yes, sir; I have known Jack Ruby for years.

Mr. HUBERT. When did you first recognize him?

Lieutenant WIGGINS. The first time that I recognized him, who it was was after they brought him into the jail office. He was on the floor still covered, or surrounded by the officers is when they picked him up off the floor and stood him on his feet in the jail.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he say anything to you?

Lieutenant WIGGINS. I don't recall him saying anything there.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever talk to him afterwards?

Lieutenant WIGGINS. Yes, sir; I talked to you the--I talked to him the next morning. I went up to see if he was all right. This was approximately 6:45, the following morning, I went to see that he was all right. I asked him how he was feeling, and he said, "As well as could be expected." And I asked him if he was being treated all right. And he said, "Yes; they are treating me fine." And I don't recall saying anything else to him at that time.

Mr. HUBERT. Had you--have you spoken to him since?

Lieutenant WIGGINS. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know who called a doctor?

Lieutenant WIGGINS. Yes, sir; when the shot was fired, as soon as I saw that I could be of no help out there, they had Ruby. They had the man, and they were surrounding--I immediately whirled, came in the office, and when I found one of my officers there, Slack, I told him to call the doctor, that Oswald had been shot.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you then notice what time it was?

Lieutenant WIGGINS. No, sir; I didn't. I don't recall.

Mr. HUBERT. Slack was where?

Lieutenant WIGGINS. He was standing right by the desk inside the jail office.

Mr. HUBERT. So, he put the call in?

Lieutenant WIGGINS. Yes, sir; he called himself, then let me say this, that after they brought Ruby in, then I turned and came back out the door and after they had brought Ruby and Oswald, after they had gotten him in I checked by telephone myself.

Mr. HUBERT. Who did you speak to then?

Lieutenant WIGGINS. I called one of them in the dispatcher's office, but I don't remember who I checked with.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, I am marking a document purporting to be a letter dated November 27, 1963, addressed to J. E. Curry, chief of police, apparently signed by you, by marking on the right-hand margin these words, "Dallas, Tex., March 24, 1964, and Exhibit 5074. Deposition of W. Wiggins." I am signing my name on the first page, and placing my initials on the lower right-hand corner of the second page. I am marking a four-page document purporting to be a report of an interview with you by special agents of the FBI, Chapoton and Smith, dated December 2, 1963, by writing in the right margin on the first page of that document the following: "Dallas, Tex., March 24, 1964. Exhibit 5075, deposition of W. Wiggins." I am signing my name and I am placing my initials on a second, third and fourth page of that document by putting those initials in the lower right-hand corner. I ask you to look at these two exhibits and tell me whether you have had an opportunity to read them?

Lieutenant WIGGINS. Yes; I have.

Mr. HUBERT. Do those documents represent what you know to be the truth?

Lieutenant WIGGINS. Yes; there is an error on the third page.

Mr. HUBERT. Of which one?

Lieutenant WIGGINS. Of the document taken by the Federal Bureau of Investigation.

Mr. HUBERT. Will you state what you consider to be the error and give us what you consider to be the truth?

Lieutenant WIGGINS. It starts on the eighth line, on the top of the third page where it starts--the sentence starts, "They had proceeded some 6 or 7 feet--" Excuse me. It is the one in front of that. The latter part of the last sentence of the eighth line. Sentence reads, "In their midst, were out past him. Wiggins," and it should read, "In their midst, went out past him. Wiggins." And the next sentence----

Mr. HUBERT. I'm not sure I got that distinction.

Lieutenant WIGGINS. All right. See this? See this then should be, "Went out past him." Not, "were out past him."

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, in the eighth line, the fourth word from the end of the eighth line should be the word "went" instead of the word "were," is that correct?

Lieutenant WIGGINS. That's true. Also, the next sentence, as it is written here, "They proceeded some 6 or 7 feet from the jail office door when he, Wiggins, saw a man lunge towards Oswald and he heard the report of the gun." That sentence should read, "They had proceeded some 6 or 7 feet past Wiggins when Wiggins saw a man lunge towards Oswald and he heard the report of a gun."

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, as the exhibit itself now reads, or as the sentence now reads it gives the impression that they had proceeded 6 or 7 feet from the jail door.

Lieutenant WIGGINS. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Whereas, your recollection is that it was 6 or 7 feet from where you were standing, and were you--you were standing about 3 or 4 feet from the jail door, so that to catch the sense properly it would be that they had proceeded about 10 to 11 feet past the jail door.

Lieutenant WIGGINS. True.

Mr. HUBERT. All right. Now, are there any other corrections or modifications?

Lieutenant WIGGINS. No, sir; rest of it is----

Mr. HUBERT. Are there errors in either of those two exhibits?

Lieutenant WIGGINS. The rest of it is as I----

Mr. HUBERT. Any omissions that you would like to correct, or----

Lieutenant WIGGINS. No, sir; nothing.

Mr. HUBERT. Anything to be deleted?

Lieutenant WIGGINS. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, Mr. Wiggins, have you been interviewed by any member of the Commission staff, other than myself?

Lieutenant WIGGINS. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, with respect to myself, we had an interview last night, did we not?

Lieutenant WIGGINS. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, are there any inconsistencies that you are aware of between the matters discussed in our interview last night and your deposition taken tonight?

Lieutenant WIGGINS. Well, we didn't discuss this last night. You and I didn't.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you discuss it with Mr.----

Lieutenant WIGGINS. We--I didn't discuss any of this. The only thing that I discussed with any one last night was with you, and that was that the time and so forth that I would be here tonight.

Mr. HUBERT. Oh, I see. When did you get to read your statement?

Lieutenant WIGGINS. Last night. You gave your report to me last night.

Mr. HUBERT. But, we had no other discussion?

Lieutenant WIGGINS. No, sir; not on this.

Mr. HUBERT. So, in fact, there was really no interview with--even with me?

Lieutenant WIGGINS. When you speak of interview, I meant conversation. I did have conversation with you last night, but not anything pertaining to this.

Mr. HUBERT. Nothing inconsistent that happened between the interview of last night and what you said today?

Lieutenant WIGGINS. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Nor, I take it, is there anything of a material nature that transpired in the interview of last night which has not been developed tonight?

Lieutenant WIGGINS. I don't believe I quite understand what you mean.

Mr. HUBERT. In view of the fact that you have already stated we had not discussed it, I think it answers itself, but the point I am wanting to make is there was nothing that was talked about last night that we didn't talk about today, obviously that is so, because it wasn't talked about last night.

Lieutenant WIGGINS. That's true.

TESTIMONY OF DON RAY ARCHER

The testimony of Don Ray Archer was taken at 8:20 p.m., on March 25, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr., assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. HUBERT. This is the deposition of Don Ray Archer, isn't that correct?

Mr. ARCHER. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Mr. Archer, my name is Leon D. Hubert. I am a member of the advisory staff of the general counsel on the President's Commission under provisions of Executive Order 11130, dated November 29, 1963, and the joint resolution of Congress No. 137, and the rules of procedure adopted by the President's Commission in conformance with the Executive order and the joint resolution. I have been authorized to take a sworn deposition from you, among others. I state to you now that the general nature of the Commission's inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate, and report upon the facts relevant to the assassination of President Kennedy and subsequent violent death of Lee Harvey Oswald. In particular as to you, Mr. Archer, the nature of the inquiry today is to determine what facts you know about the death of Oswald and any other pertinent facts you may know about the general inquiry.

Now, Mr. Archer, you appear today by virtue of a general request made by J. Lee Rankin, general counsel of the staff of the President's Commission to Chief Curry. Under the rules adopted by the Commission, you are entitled to a 3-day written notice prior to the taking of this deposition, but the rules adopted by the Commission also provide that a witness may waive this 3-day written notice if he so wishes. Now, do you desire to waive that notice?

Mr. ARCHER. I will waive.

Mr. HUBERT. All right. Will you stand and raise your right hand.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you solemnly swear that you will tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. ARCHER. I do.

Mr. HUBERT. Will you state your name?

Mr. ARCHER. Don Ray Archer.

Mr. HUBERT. And your last name is Archer?

Mr. ARCHER. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Your age, sir?

Mr. ARCHER. I am 31.

Mr. HUBERT. Where do you reside?

Mr. ARCHER. 2035 San Francisco, Dallas, Tex.

Mr. HUBERT. What is your occupation?

Mr. ARCHER. I am police officer for the city of Dallas.

Mr. HUBERT. How long have you been on the police force of the city of Dallas?

Mr. ARCHER. Ten years, May 31.

Mr. HUBERT. What particular duty or function do you have with the police department?

Mr. ARCHER. I am a detective assigned to auto theft bureau.

Mr. HUBERT. Who is your immediate superior?

Mr. ARCHER. My immediate superior would be Lieutenant Smart, and then Capt. J. C. Nichols, who is the head of our bureau.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you have the same position and rank and duties and occupation during the period of November 22 to 24, 1963?

Mr. ARCHER. Yes; I did.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, where were you stationed when you first came on duty on November 24, 1963?

Mr. ARCHER. On November 24, I reported for duty at 7 a.m., at the auto theft bureau, which is my normal procedure when I report for work.

Mr. HUBERT. Then did you go about performing your regular duties in the auto theft bureau, or were you assigned extra and other duties?