Chapter V: Part 5

Mr. HUBERT. Under the provisions of President Johnson's Executive Order No. 11130, dated November 29, 1963, and the Joint Resolution of Congress No. 137, and the rules of procedure adopted by the President's Commission in conformance with the Executive order and the joint resolution, I have been authorized to take a sworn deposition from you, among many officers of the detective bureau. Your name has been specifically mentioned as a person from whom I could take a sworn deposition. I state to you now that the general nature of the Commission's inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate, and report upon the facts relating to the assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of Lee Harvey Oswald. In particular as to you, Captain Frazier, the nature of the inquiry today is to determine what facts you know about the death of Oswald and any other pertinent facts you may know about the general inquiry. Now, Captain, you have appeared here today by virtue of a letter addressed to Chief Curry by Mr. J. Lee Rankin, who is the general counsel for the President's Commission. Under the rules adopted by the Commission every witness is entitled to a 3-day written notice prior to the taking of his deposition. The rules also provide, however, that if the witness wishes he may waive the 3-day notice in writing. I say to you that you have a right to the 3-day notice, which you have not received, but I ask you if you wish to waive that 3 day----

Captain FRAZIER. No.

Mr. HUBERT. You don't wish----

Captain FRAZIER. Oh, I will waive it.

Mr. HUBERT. You do not wish to persist in your right to have the 3-day notice?

Captain FRAZIER. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Then I'll ask you to stand, sir, and raise your right hand to be sworn. Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Captain FRAZIER. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Will you state your full name, please?

Mr. FRAZIER. William Bennett Frazier.

Mr. HUBERT. Your age?

Mr. FRAZIER. Forty-three.

Mr. HUBERT. Where do you live, sir?

Mr. FRAZIER. 2205 Newcastle, Garland, Tex.

Mr. HUBERT. What is your occupation?

Mr. FRAZIER. Police officer.

Mr. HUBERT. How long have you been on the police department of Dallas?

Mr. FRAZIER. For 17-1/2 years.

Mr. HUBERT. You have the rank of captain?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. What particular function or duties are you assigned to in the department, sir?

Mr. FRAZIER. I am in charge of the radio patrol platoon.

Mr. HUBERT. Who is your immediate superior?

Mr. FRAZIER. Chief N. T. Fisher.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you have the same rank and the same duties during the period November 22 to 24, 1963?

Mr. FRAZIER. I did, yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, I understand that you were on duty on the morning of the 24th of November, is that correct, sir?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. What time did you come on duty? Do you know?

Mr. FRAZIER. At 11 p.m., on the 23d.

Mr. HUBERT. I think that is what they call the first shift?

Mr. FRAZIER. First platoon.

Mr. HUBERT. First platoon, rather, and that goes until roughly 7 in the morning?

Mr. FRAZIER. Around 7; yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Had you been on duty the night before, that is, on first platoon. That would have been----

Mr. FRAZIER. What day would it have been, sir?

Mr. HUBERT. Well, it would have been the 23d.

Mr. FRAZIER. I mean, what day of the week.

Mr. HUBERT. Oh, the day before would have been Saturday.

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; I was on duty at the time. That would have been the first platoon. Yes, sir; I was on duty at the time.

Mr. HUBERT. Was your office, in fact, in the building?

Mr. FRAZIER. On the second floor.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you have anything to do at all with the interrogation, or the security of Oswald?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, on the 24th of November, about in the middle of the shift there, about 3 or 3:30 or 3:45 that morning, I understand you received a telephone call from an FBI agent, is that correct?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; Mr. Newsom, I believe his name is.

Mr. HUBERT. Can you tell me how it came to you? How did the call come to you?

Mr. FRAZIER. Mr. Newsom called me and said he had received a threat from some man to the effect that a group of men, I believe he indicated they had 100 or 200, I don't recall the exact number, were going to attempt to kill Oswald that day sometime. That he didn't want the FBI, Dallas Police Department or the sheriff's office injured in any way. That was the reason for the call. So, Mr. Newsom called me and related that story to me.

Mr. HUBERT. Were you in charge of the police department at the time?

Mr. FRAZIER. I was in charge of the patrol section.

Mr. HUBERT. Patrol section?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. What other senior officers were on duty?

Mr. FRAZIER. I guess I was the senior on any division at that morning; yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. As I understand it, Chief Curry was not there, Chief Batchelor was not there?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Stevenson was not there?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Who is your immediate superior?

Mr. FRAZIER. Fisher. He was not there.

Mr. HUBERT. You, in fact, were the ranking officer?

Mr. FRAZIER. On duty at that time; yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Were you aware of that? I mean, are you made aware of that?

Mr. FRAZIER. Oh, yes, sir; yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. How is it done?

Mr. FRAZIER. Well, just the fact that the officers under--who rank under you are there, and there is nobody of equal rank or higher present in the entire police department, it reverts to you.

Mr. HUBERT. The highest in rank is in charge of the whole operation?

Mr. FRAZIER. It is.

Mr. HUBERT. So, if someone had asked for who was in--if Newsom had asked to speak to the top man in charge, you were that man, that day?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Had you heard any of that news of that sort from another source?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know a man by the name of Deputy Cox, or Coy in the sheriff's----

Mr. FRAZIER. I talked to that man later on in the morning after Mr. Newsom called me. But I don't know the name, whether it was Coy, or Cox, but he indicated that Sheriff Decker wanted to talk to Chief Curry in regards to moving Oswald, so, I, in turn then attempted to contact Chief Curry by telephone and his line was busy.

Mr. HUBERT. That was about what time?

Mr. FRAZIER. I don't know. 5:45, 6 o'clock, somewhere along there. Then I tried for some 10 or 15 minutes to get his line, and it was busy, so, I asked the operator to check into it. She came back and said the line was out of order, so, I in turn, was preparing to send a squad by the chief's home and tell him of the information and that Decker wanted him to call him and Captain Talbert relieved me around 6 or 6:15. I give him the information and he said he sent a squad later and told the chief about it.

Mr. HUBERT. I think earlier you had called Captain Fritz, hadn't you?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, I called Captain Fritz once or twice in an effort to see if they were handling it or if the chief was handling it, or if homicide--Captain Fritz was handling it. Since he is the captain in charge of that particular bureau, so, naturally I called him first.

Mr. HUBERT. That was when you got the message from Newsom?

Mr. FRAZIER. A little while later; yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. What did he say about it?

Mr. FRAZIER. He said I should talk to Chief Curry, that he was handling the transfer.

Mr. HUBERT. That Chief Curry----

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; not him.

Mr. HUBERT. Not him? Did he tell you of any plans made for the transfer? Did Captain Fritz tell you of any plans made for the transfer?

Mr. FRAZIER. I don't recall, sir. He may have said--I'm not sure. I heard this later on in the morning, I think, but I'm not sure. He may have said then that he planned to move him around 10 the next day. I don't recall whether he said it or some other officer said it later on in the morning, but I did hear it. Now, I don't say whether Captain Fritz is the one that told me or not. I don't recall the exact conversation there other than the fact that I had asked him if he was handling it and he said, "No." Chief Curry was handling it.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember when you spoke to Mr. Newsom from the FBI whether Mr. Newsom told you that the Dallas Sheriff's Office had received a similar call to the one he was relating to you?

Mr. FRAZIER. No; I don't recall that. He possibly--he could have said it, but I do not recall it, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. When the gentlemen from the sheriff's office, either Cox or Coy, called you that was simply about when the transfer was going to take place, is that correct?

Mr. FRAZIER. I assume that is what it was. He indicated to me that Decker wanted to get ahold of Chief Curry and move him as soon as possible.

Mr. HUBERT. Did that man mention to you about the receipt of any threats such as Newsom had told you about?

Mr. FRAZIER. I believe he did.

Mr. HUBERT. That was the second threat you had received that morning? In other words, the threat came from two sources, so far as you know. You heard it from the FBI, and this man from the sheriff's office?

Mr. FRAZIER. Indicated----

Mr. HUBERT. Indicated that he had received a threat?

Mr. FRAZIER. I believe he did; yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember saying to Mr. Newsom that the plan to transfer Oswald to the county jail might be changed in view of the threat that he had conveyed to you?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; no, sir. That wasn't any of my business, that transfer, and I'm sure I didn't relate that to him, because I'd be telling him something that I didn't know about, really, at that time.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember telling Mr. Newsom of the FBI, on the occasion that he called you that morning around 2 or 2:30, that Oswald's plans of transfer had been publicized primarily as a form of cooperation with press and news agencies?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. You did not make that----

Mr. FRAZIER. Huh-uh.

Mr. HUBERT. You did not make that statement?

Mr. FRAZIER. I did not make any such statement.

Mr. HUBERT. Was there any planned transfer, to your knowledge?

Mr. FRAZIER. All I knew that they was supposed to move the next day, and then perhaps later in the morning I--maybe Captain Fritz told me that they were supposed to move him around 10 a.m., that morning.

Mr. HUBERT. That is as to time, but did you know of any plans prior to going off duty that day as to the method, the route, and the vehicles to be used?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; no, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. What time did you go off duty, sir?

Mr. FRAZIER. It was around 6 or 6:15, or something like that, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. What time did you come back then?

Mr. FRAZIER. If that was----

Mr. HUBERT. Did you leave the department and go home?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes; I went home and I went to bed. I was asleep when Oswald was shot.

Mr. HUBERT. When did you hear about that?

Mr. FRAZIER. My wife awakened me shortly thereafter. She had seen it on TV. She was watching the transfer on TV, and she awakened me.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you go down there?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I called and asked if they needed me. They said, "No, stay where you are. You will have to work tonight." So, I stayed there.

Mr. HUBERT. Fritz has said--did I understand you to say, that Curry was in charge of all transfers?

Mr. FRAZIER. Was in charge of that transfer.

Mr. HUBERT. Of that particular--of Oswald's transfer?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know a man by the name of W. J. Harrison, I think they call him "Blackie," a detective?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; he is a patrolman temporarily assigned to CID. Yes, sir; I believe he is in the juvenile bureau. I'm not sure, but I think he is.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever hear him talk about his experiences on the 24th?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I haven't seen him. I haven't seen "Blackie" in, I guess, 6 months or so, maybe longer.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know Patrick Dean?

Mr. FRAZIER. P. T. Dean? Sergeant Dean? I know him; yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Have you spoken to him about his activities on that day?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; he works on another platoon and another captain and I don't come in contact with him very often except just to say hello as we are going off duty or coming on and only one I confer with is the captain in charge of the platoon coming on when I leave.

Mr. HUBERT. The radio patrol is what, actually?

Mr. FRAZIER. It is the regular squad car, two-man squad car that patrols the entire city. We have anywhere from 185 to 205 men on duty at most platoons. However, our day platoon is our lowest. It will run 120, 125.

Mr. HUBERT. These men are cruising areas?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; districts.

Mr. HUBERT. And they are controlled by radio communication from your office?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; from the dispatcher's office, which is----

Mr. HUBERT. So, if you want to contact any of those people you can do it directly, you do it through a dispatcher?

Mr. FRAZIER. Through the dispatcher; yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. When you--were you on duty when the President was shot?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Were you called in?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. You just took your regular shift at 11 o'clock that night?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. You had gotten off at 7 o'clock?

Mr. FRAZIER. 6 or 7 that morning; yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. If we would want to find out about the dispatch sent out right after the President's death, or right before, whom would we contact? What would be the name of the officer?

Mr. FRAZIER. Lumpkin, George Lumpkin.

Mr. HUBERT. Lumpkin?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; he is in charge of all communications and I believe most of that is on tape. They tried to tape most of the conversations.

Mr. HUBERT. They keep the tape?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes; permanent records, as I understand it.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, I show you a document which I have marked for identification with the following inscription, in my own handwriting, "Dallas, Tex., March 25, 1964, Exhibit 5086, deposition of W. B. Frazier." I have signed the first page, and placed my initials in the lower right hand corner of the second page. I'll ask you if that statement--if you have read that document and whether it is substantially correct?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; it is.

Mr. HUBERT. I would ask you, therefore, if you would sign your name under mine and place your initials under mine on the second page?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right here, sir?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes; right there and then sign your name on the front page right under my signature there.

Mr. FRAZIER. Over here?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Mr. FRAZIER. All right, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, I hand you another document which I have marked for--"Dallas, Tex., March 25, 1964, Exhibit 5087, deposition of W. B. Frazier." I have signed my name to the bottom of this document which purports to be a report by Special Agent Melton L. Newsom of the FBI, of a conversation which he had over the telephone with you on November 24, 1963, at about 3:20 a.m., and I'll ask you if that report by Mr. Newsom of that conversation is a correct report of that conversation?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I don't believe it is.

Mr. HUBERT. Would you indicate what parts are correct and what parts are wrong?

Mr. FRAZIER. Now, you are asking of my own knowledge, is that correct?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes, sir.

Mr. FRAZIER. Now, this first paragraph here, I know nothing of this. Mr. Glassup. He didn't talk to me.

Mr. HUBERT. No; I think the----

Mr. FRAZIER. And, he received the call I understand here, and it goes into, "I represent a committee that--it is neither right nor left wing," and so forth. I didn't get all that in the conversation with Newsom, that I recall. Newsom told me that a group of men, I believe he indicated a hundred or two were going to kill Oswald the following day, the day after the night--or, you know, the next day or two. Now, that was essentially what he told me.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you say he didn't tell you that had been received by Glassup?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; he said they received information, or threats.

Mr. HUBERT. Nor did he give you the exact language of the threat, as indicated in that?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; he did not.

Mr. HUBERT. He simply told you that they had received the threat and the sense of the threat was along the lines of the paragraph, first paragraph?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. But, neither mentioned Glassup's name, nor did he speak the exact quoted language which--when he spoke to you?

Mr. FRAZIER. That's right.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, what about the next paragraph, second paragraph?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; that is essentially correct. However, I believe he did advise the Dallas sheriff's office had received a similar call. That is essentially correct, that paragraph.

Mr. HUBERT. All right; what about the third paragraph?

Mr. FRAZIER. The third paragraph, I don't recall making that statement.

Mr. HUBERT. What about the fourth paragraph?

Mr. FRAZIER. Because, at that time, I did not know exactly what the plans were to move Oswald, see.

Mr. HUBERT. And what about the last paragraph?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; no, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. You mean to say that you do not recall?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I do not recall making that statement to Mr. Newsom.

Mr. HUBERT. I would like for you to do this then with reference to that document. Just place the word, next to the last paragraph, "incorrect," and initial it.

Mr. FRAZIER. All right, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Have you initialled it?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. All right; now, with that----

Mr. FRAZIER. And the top paragraph.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, the top paragraph----

Mr. FRAZIER. I couldn't attest to that either.

Mr. HUBERT. Please explain what your position is on it, and if you would like to sign your name just below mine so then we have the matter in hand.

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, is there anything else that you would like to state that has not been said?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; nothing more to my knowledge.

Mr. HUBERT. Prior to the commencement of this deposition with you, have you been interviewed by any member of the Commission's Staff?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. You were not interviewed by me, in fact, before it began?

Mr. FRAZIER. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Thank you very much.

TESTIMONY OF CAPT. O. A. JONES

The testimony of Capt. O. A. Jones was taken at 9 a.m., on March 24, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr., assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. HUBERT. This is the Dallas deposition of Capt. O. A. Jones, Forgery Bureau, Dallas Police Department. My name is Leon D. Hubert, Jr. I am a member of the advisory staff of the general counsel of the President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy.

Under the Provisions of the Executive Order 11130, dated November 29, 1963, the joint resolution of Congress, No. 137, and the rules of procedure adopted by the Commission in conformance with the Executive order and the Commission, I have been authorized to take the sworn deposition from you, Mr. Jones. I state to you now that the general nature on the Commission's inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate and report upon the facts relating to the assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of Lee Harvey Oswald.

In particular as to you Captain Jones, the nature of the inquiry today is to determine what facts you know about the death of Oswald and any other pertinent fact you may know about the general inquiry. Captain Jones, you have appeared here today by virtue of a general request made by the general counsel on the staff of the President's Commission to Chief Curry.

Under the rules adopted by the Commission you are entitled to have a 3-day written notice prior to the taking of this deposition. The rules of the Commission also provide that the witness may waive the notice. Do you waive the 3-day notice now?

Captain JONES. Yes, sir; I do.

Mr. HUBERT. Will you be sworn, please?

Captain JONES. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Raise your right hand. Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Captain JONES. I do.

Mr. HUBERT. Captain Jones, please state your full name?

Captain JONES. Orville [spelling] O-r-v-i-l-l-e Aubrey [spelling] A-u-b-r-e-y Jones.

Mr. HUBERT. Your age?

Captain JONES. Forty-nine.

Mr. HUBERT. And your residence?

Captain JONES. 2603 Alco [spelling] A-l-c-o Avenue, Dallas 11, Tex.

Mr. HUBERT. What is your present occupation, Captain Jones?

Captain JONES. Captain in the city police department, Dallas, Tex.

Mr. HUBERT. How long have you held that rank, sir?

Captain JONES. April of 1957.

Mr. HUBERT. What is your particular assignment now?

Captain JONES. Commanding officer in the forgery bureau.

Mr. HUBERT. You are under Chief Stevenson?

Captain JONES. M. W. Stevenson is my superior officer.

Mr. HUBERT. And your rank and duties were the same during the period of November 22 and 24, 1963?

Captain JONES. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, Captain, I show you three documents which I am numbering--I show you three documents upon which I am writing the following in the lower right-hand corner. "Dallas, Texas, March 24, 1964. Exhibit No. 5054, deposition of Capt. O. A. Jones." Beneath which I have signed my name, Leon D. Hubert. The second document which I am endorsing "Dallas, Texas, March 24, 1964, Exhibit No. 5055, deposition of Capt. O. A. Jones," and I am signing my signature below that. That document consisting of three pages, and I am initialing--two other--to revert back for a moment to No. 5054, that has a second page and I am placing my initials on the second page of that document in the lower right-hand corner. Third document, I am writing on the right-hand margin the following: "Dallas, Texas, March 24, 1964. Exhibit 5056. Deposition of Capt. O. A. Jones," and I am signing my name below that. That document containing three pages. I am taking my initials and placing them on the second and third pages. Now, Captain, I think you have read these three documents which I----

Captain JONES. I have; yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, I would like you to place your name below mine on each one of these pages, please, and your initials below mine on the other pages, after which I'm going to ask you some questions concerning these documents.

Captain JONES. All right, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Just below mine and then initial the second and third page below my initials there. Now, Captain, I think you have already stated that you have read these three documents?

Captain JONES. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Exhibit 5054, 5055, and 5056, and I am going to ask you if, in your opinion, those documents represent the truth, or if you have any kind of amendments, modifications, or additions that you want to make?

Captain JONES. There are some additions.

Mr. HUBERT. Would you state for the record what amendments or modifications, whatever else you have to about the documents.

Captain JONES. This is off the record.

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. HUBERT. Now, back on the record. Anyhow, with reference directed at 5054, Captain, what have you to say as to that? That being a report of Special Agents James W. Bookhout and Joseph M. Meyers, of an interview of you by those gentlemen on November 25, 1963.

Captain JONES. First, let me say that they make reference--they are correct, but they have grouped together under "specific instructions that I received." I received, at two different times, that is not at the same time. At first, when I was sent downstairs Chief Stevenson gave me instructions to go to the Commerce Street ramp, place two patrolmen there to assist an armored car down that ramp to get it backed as far down as possible, down in the basement----

Mr. HUBERT. Before you leave that, do you know about what time it was?

Captain JONES. I'd say only about 11 o'clock, and it could have been a little before because of the amount of time required on that, but I didn't look at my watch.

Mr. HUBERT. Thank you.

Captain JONES. Do you want me to go on to the other points?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Captain JONES. The other part. In one sentence I gave, he has specific instructions about keeping them back, and Chief Batchelor and Chief Stevenson did so later when they came to the basement, and I called the attention that photographers were out in the other part of the jail office now, and there was nothing said upstairs--said about clearing anything except what I said that one thing, except--take--taking any detectives remaining on the third floor and placing them where I wanted them, where I felt they would be needed. That goes into it a little more in detail, but by having that in front of me right now. If you could, I can show you the point that he states he instructed me to secure the area for the transport of Lee Harvey Oswald from the Dallas City Jail to the Dallas County Jail--with additional specific instructions from Chief Stevenson or Chief Batchelor or to have detectives under their supervision to question the news media to keep the basement east of the driveway--that came up after we got down in the basement, and it reads maybe as if it was given at another place.

Mr. HUBERT. What you have just read and commented upon is from the first paragraph of a document 5054? Right?

Captain JONES. Yes, sir; right.

Mr. HUBERT. Go ahead now.

Captain JONES. The--in other words, the two instructions given previously before I went to the basement were: One, to arrange to have officers assist the armored truck which they told me was en route, to back into the Commerce Street ramp down into the city hall and as far as possible. Number two; take any remaining detectives from the third floor down to the basement and place them where I thought they might be needed.

Mr. HUBERT. Would you state for the record how you carried out those specific orders?

Captain JONES. Yes, sir; I made a round of all CIB Bureaus, with the exception of homicide and robbery, which was working on the assassination, and got--I can't tell you, two or three or some detectives that were remaining, and we went down the elevator. This is the one I went down with the--and I don't know who they were, and don't have any names. Didn't make a detail--but I went up and did see Patrolman Jez and one other patrolman that I don't know his name----

Mr. HUBERT. They were in uniform?

Captain JONES. They were in uniform. They would remain and assist the armored truck in backing down there. And the detectives that had come with me were standing at the jail office. I had left them at the door of the jail office, and coming back toward the ramp, I came upon Captain Talbert, in charge of the patrol division, and told him that Patrolman Jez and the other officer were up there and what the Chief had said.

Mr. HUBERT. All right. Now, have you any other comments to make about----

Captain JONES. Now, that is all about that.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, I understand that that is document 5054?

Captain JONES. Let me check on this now for sure. That is--yes; that is all right now.

Mr. HUBERT. All right. And Exhibit 5055.

Captain JONES. May I ask you a question?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes, sir.

Captain JONES. Now then, the instructions about checking that, you want to get to that later that I got--where Chief Batchelor and Chief Stevenson----

Mr. HUBERT. What I want to do is get through these documents.

Captain JONES. All right, sir. Now, our next exhibit. That would be 5055?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes. That is the letter addressed on November 26th, to Chief J. E. Curry?

Captain JONES. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. This is a copy of the original which apparently was signed by you?

Captain JONES. Yes, sir; that's right.

Mr. HUBERT. I think you have read it.

Captain JONES. I have read it, and only one thing on that. That is on page 2, at the top--where I had two different directions running from the jail office door across the ramp running east, and then I turned and went south, and we called that east, too, but it is--only thing the right is running, instead of east, should have read south.

Mr. HUBERT. Where is that, sir?

Captain JONES. All right, sir. I will show you. Up here this word "east," probably should be "south."

Mr. HUBERT. Suppose we change that from "this point running east," and I will encircle it and put the word "south," and putting my own initial below the change, and ask you if you would----

Captain JONES. Running east from the door of the jail office to the rail on the opposite side, and down a line from this point running south. Yes, sir; that's right.

Mr. HUBERT. So, just initial the change then and the word "east," which we encircled and changed to "south," and Captain Jones and myself are initialling the change.

Captain JONES. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Other than that, do you have any changes that should be made?

Captain JONES. Let that stand.

Mr. HUBERT. Then this document which I have identified as Exhibit 5056, being the report by the FBI, specifically by Agents Edward Mabey and Kenneth Hughes [spelling] H-u-g-h-e-s, of an interview with you, apparently, on December 2, 1963, and ask you if you have any corrections to make as to that?

Captain JONES. Yes, sir; there are one or two changes that I would like to make in that.

Mr. HUBERT. All right.

Captain JONES. Let's see. Can I see it just one moment, sir?

Mr. HUBERT. Sure.

Captain JONES. All right. I would like to make the following changes. At the bottom of page 1, of Exhibit--that is 5056, I believe?

Mr. HUBERT. That's right.

Captain JONES. The last sentence that reads, "Jones assisted in holding back the press line during the process, and gave instructions to all officers near the jail office and the door to allow no one in the area from the jail to the automobile, down the route the prisoner was to take."

Mr. HUBERT. Now, what is your comment?

Captain JONES. The comment is that the sentence should have read, "Jones assisted holding back the press lines through the process of moving the automobile onto the ramp." The rest of the sentence refers back to just prior to that when the instructions had been given to keep those things clear. Immediately following the clearing of the jail office is when I gave those instructions at that time, to hold the people back and get those--I did not have time or the opportunity, and did not turn at that time and tell everybody that we were trying to get the car back up into position.

Mr. HUBERT. Have you any change or comments to make upon the document--5056?

Captain JONES. Yes, sir; on page 2, of this same exhibit.

Mr. HUBERT. Off the record.

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. HUBERT. Now, back on the record.

Captain JONES. Beginning with the first complete paragraph that says, "Jones was walking up the Commerce Street ramp when he heard from behind him, 'Here he comes,' from an unidentified individual," and on that, there is only one change.

Whereas, Jones was walking toward the Commerce Street ramp instead of up it, now.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, you were not----

Captain JONES. In other words, I was not up on the rise itself. I was walking toward it.

Mr. HUBERT. Heading from what direction?

Captain JONES. From the general area in front of the jail office door, out in the flat area. The ramps come down like [indicating] straighten out. The jail is here [indicating].

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, what you wish to point out is that the Commerce Street ramp takes an upturn about half way up the ramp?

Captain JONES. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. And that you want to indicate that you had not reached the up-rise?

Captain JONES. No, sir; I had not.

Mr. HUBERT. But, you were in the ramp that runs between Main and Commerce, but on the level part?

Captain JONES. On the level part, and walking toward the rise.

Mr. HUBERT. Walking toward the rise. Any other comments concerning that?

Captain JONES. Yes, sir; on page 3----

Mr. HUBERT. 5056?

Captain JONES. 5056.

Mr. HUBERT. What paragraph?

Captain JONES. It will be the last sentence; begins on page 2.

Mr. HUBERT. All right; the last sentence beginning on page 2. Will you read it then?

Captain JONES. "Jones then placed two officers at the swinging door just outside the jail office, and advised them not to let persons leave who had proper identification----

Mr. HUBERT. Latter part of that sentence is at the top of page 3, of that Exhibit 5056, is that right?

Captain JONES. Yes, sir. The correction, sir, that is "Jones then placed two officers at the swinging doors just outside the jail office and advised them to let the reporters and news media who had identification come to the third floor."

Mr. HUBERT. Other than that change, that sentence, you think, is correct?

Captain JONES. That's correct, yes, sir. Now, I have one more.

Mr. HUBERT. All right. What page?

Captain JONES. It is the last paragraph of page 3, first sentence that reads----

Mr. HUBERT. Now, you are talking about Exhibit 5056?

Captain JONES. Yes, sir.

"Due to the fact that Jones was recalled from vacation, he wasn't present at any briefing on the security measures that were to be in effect in the basement on November 24, 1963."

Mr. HUBERT. All right?

Captain JONES. Now, on that, I had been due to go on vacation on Friday. I had continued on through. I don't know why I wasn't in on any briefing or anything. I am going to say that is the reason I wasn't, for I was down there, and that was, I'm sure--I have told the gentlemen these facts and so forth, but that I didn't attend a briefing, that I had planned to go on vacation immediately after the President's speech at the the Trade Mart, and--but I can't say why I wasn't called in on any briefing. I just wasn't in on any of them.

Mr. HUBERT. Just while we are on that subject, is it a fact that you were supposed to go on a leave as soon as the President left Dallas?

Captain JONES. On Friday; yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. On Friday?

Captain JONES. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. In fact, did you go?

Captain JONES. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Would you state very briefly for me your activities from the time of the night before the President's visit up until the 24th? Just very briefly.

Captain JONES. All right, sir. I had been assigned previously in the week to have charge of the fourth floor at the Trade Mart where the President's luncheon was to be held. On Thursday night before----

Mr. HUBERT. Wait. Thursday night?

Captain JONES. Thursday night before the luncheon. I was rather wakeful and a little nervous, certainly not anticipating an assassination, but because of some unfortunate incidents in Dallas, there was a desire not to have anything happen that would reflect on the city, and certainly even a humiliating incident such as throwing paper, eggs, or shouting or anything such as that. A little apprehensive about it, and didn't sleep very much. Went out to the Trade Mart on Friday and stationed quite a few officers at all the places on the fourth floor.

I had a listing and a schedule and all that. Remained there until afternoon--that is, after news of the assassination, and until we were told that we could leave. I then returned to the city hall and en route had cleared with the dispatcher that if he didn't have further instructions for the group with me that we would return to the city hall.

I returned, and I immediately made every officer available to Captain Fritz. I don't know how long that we worked that night for sure, but I do know it was after 2 o'clock when the FBI Agent Vince Drain left the city hall with some--some evidence he was going to take, and that was about 2 o'clock, Saturday morning, the 24th.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you go home----

Captain JONES. Yes, I did go home for possibly 2 to 3 hours and laid down. Didn't rest very much. We came back down Saturday and continued working with Captain Fritz. Making my offices available and my men available to him during the day Saturday until Saturday evening when we filed our--our bureau filed the assault to murder charge on Oswald for the shooting of Governor Connally, which is our bureau that, assault to murder--that handles assault to murder.

Captain Fritz' bureau handles murder, and by this time I--that was filed, I began to help take incoming calls and to assist in any way that I could up there in the administration offices. Stayed up there until at least nearly midnight Saturday night. Went home, got a few hours of troubled sleep that night. Before I left, Chief Stevenson told me that it looked like my cases were all filed, everything was in pretty good shape. I might as well go ahead and take my vacation as I had planned and I told him I couldn't enjoy--a little fishing trip was what I had planned--until it was all over.

Mr. HUBERT. Let me go back a moment. There was a lineup of some kind on the night of Friday, November 22, at which Oswald was brought into the lineup in the assembly room at the police department, at which a number of news media were present.

Captain JONES. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Were you present that night?

Captain JONES. No, sir; I was on the third floor at that time.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know Jack Ruby?

Captain JONES. I have known him.

Mr. HUBERT. Just state how well and under what circumstances.

Captain JONES. Yes, sir; I will be glad to do that. And I do want to ask--can I say something off the record here?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. HUBERT. Get back on the record.

During the off-the-record period, Captain Jones simply explained to me that he had omitted something from his comments relative to what?

Captain JONES. Relative to knowing Jack Ruby. I've got to find----

Mr. HUBERT. Relative to what document?

Captain JONES. 5056. Document 5056; that would be the first complete paragraph on page 3, where it states, "Jones states that he did know Ruby and had known him prior to 1952, when he ran the Silver Spur, a nightclub on South Central. He stated that prior to 1952, he was a lieutenant covering this district and did go into the Silver Spur, at the most, six times looking for white subjects."

Mr. HUBERT. Would you state your comments on that?

Captain JONES. The comment is that, "Jones stated that he did know Ruby and had known him prior to 1952, when he ran the Silver Spur, a nightclub on South Ervay." The next sentence should read, "He stated that prior to 1952, he was a detective assigned mostly to colored cases, but that occasionally we were assigned cases involving white suspects, and on a few occasions did go in the Silver Spur during those investigations."

Mr. HUBERT. All right.

Captain JONES. I was asked how many times, and I could not estimate how many times. I said, "Not over six times, probably, altogether."

Mr. HUBERT. Let me put it this way to you. Did you know him well enough so that you would have recognized him had he walked into a room?

Captain JONES. That is a question in my mind that I doubt very much that I would have. I did recognize him in the basement after someone said--before I ever saw who it ever was in custody, that it was Jack Ruby, and when I was told that in advance I did recognize him. Otherwise, it is possible that I might have recognized him had I been given that opportunity but I did not have the opportunity.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you see him, that is to say, Jack Ruby, in your rounds of the basement any time, from the shooting of the President until the shooting of Oswald?

Captain JONES. To recognize him as such, I did not see him to recognize him then. And after seeing him at the time of the arrest, I did not recall having seen him even as a face in the crowd prior to that.

Mr. HUBERT. Would you say that now with the consideration after having been told that it was Jack Ruby and recognizing him, you still don't remember having seen----

Captain JONES. I did not see that particular man in there, and not having recognized him, I don't recall seeing that face, at any time. This is with the full knowledge that since this matter I have found that one of my own men filed a simple assault case on him about a year ago, but I wasn't aware of that.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you know of any plans that had been made at that time for the transportation of Oswald, prior to leaving to go home on Saturday night, the 23d of November?

Captain JONES. That is one of the questions that I am going to have to say that things have come up that during my investigation that I headed following the shooting of Oswald, by Ruby--that I headed a team of several lieutenants, and one detective investigating the security in the basement--and I have some knowledge as a result of that investigation, that no one came to me and told me about the possible transfer, or--possible transfer, or any plans for a transfer prior to me going home Saturday night.

Mr. HUBERT. Were you aware that the plan was not to transfer Oswald until at least 10 o'clock on Sunday morning?

Captain JONES. It seems to me as if possibly there was something about that in my mind, but I can't tell you where I got it, but there was some talk around there. I don't know whether the time was 10 o'clock, or 9 o'clock, and since that time I have talked to people that said, "I don't know," but it does seem to me that I was under the impression that when I got up Sunday morning that if I got down there before 9 o'clock, he possibly would not have been transferred by that time, but so help me, I cannot think--I cannot say how that I knew that.

Mr. HUBERT. Let me put it to you another way. Were you given any specific duty to perform or anything relative to the transfer whenever that would take place?

Captain JONES. You mean prior to that 11 o'clock, when I was sent to the basement?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes; prior to Saturday night.

Captain JONES. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Prior to leaving on Saturday night----

Captain JONES. In fact, I was told that if I wanted to go on my fishing trip, I could go.

Mr. HUBERT. So, then you got back at what time?

Captain JONES. I would say somewhere roughly around 9 o'clock, couldn't have been much after that.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you do anything between 9 and, say, 10 o'clock?

Captain JONES. Yes, sir; I sure did.

Mr. HUBERT. Tell us what you did.

Captain JONES. I was answering the telephone, and I can't recall specific things. It was just things that come up that needed doing right then. Getting calls----

Mr. HUBERT. Let me ask you the same question I asked about the other period. Were you given any specific duties to do, or specific functions as to supervising concerning the transfer of Oswald during this period of 9 to, say, 11 o'clock, or roughly 11 o'clock, on the 24th?

Captain JONES. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Were you simply answering the phone?

Captain JONES. I came in and started answering the phone, and started doing whatever appeared necessary for me to do.

Mr. HUBERT. What then happened next?

Captain JONES. Well, that went on for almost 2 hours or somewhere near that and then at approximately 11 o'clock is when Chief Stevenson came to me, and I don't know whether he came in from one of the offices. I was in the big lobby out front of the chief's office, but I came to the double doors where the secretaries have their desks, and he came to me and told me to go down to the basement of the city hall, go up the Commerce Street ramp and place two officers there to assist an armored truck that was en route to be used in the transfer of Oswald. Have those two officers there assist that truck in backing down into the basement as far as possible. "I don't know whether it will go all the way or not," also to take any available detectives on the third floor to the basement and place them where I thought they might be needed.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you follow those instructions?

Captain JONES. I did.

Mr. HUBERT. Can you tell us in what way you did so?

Captain JONES. All right, sir. I went to the automobile theft bureau, juvenile bureau, my own forgery bureau and--burglary and theft bureau, and got any detectives available to have them report to me at the jail office, and it seems to me, as I say, as if two or three detectives went with me. I couldn't tell you how many it was in the elevator going down with me, but--nor who they were, but I do know that when we got to the jail office I then asked them to remain in one place and I went out the door on the ramp, or on the driveway and up the ramp to Commerce Street, called Patrolman Jez and another officer, uniformed policeman, then. Relayed Chief Stevenson's instructions not to leave there that the truck was en route.

In coming back down the ramp I encountered Captain Talbert, who is in charge of the patrol division, and because Chief Stevenson had sent me down there to do that, I informed him of the instructions I had so that he wouldn't inadvertently move them, and then I returned to the officers in the basement--jail office, and just standing outside there. And from here on in--many times--I can tell you most of the things that happened. I am sure I may be a little unsure of the time, or sequence of things, for there in a matter of a few minutes quite a lot of things were done, but I returned into there and told the officers to remain there, that----

Mr. HUBERT. When you say that you returned----

Captain JONES. To the jail office on the basement floor. Now, who they were, I don't know. I am sure some of it is mentioned in the individual officers' reports that we have, of the ones that were there that I was talking to and told them as far as I knew the armored car was going, that was going to transfer him, that was backed up, it was backed up there and we would see the prisoner was safely escorted over to that. Meantime, someone, I couldn't tell----

Mr. HUBERT. Just 1 minute. Before that, had you been told by Chief Stevenson when he instructed you to go down to the Commerce Street ramp and make arrangements for the handling of the armored truck----

Captain JONES. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Had you been told what route would be followed by the armored truck, or whatever vehicle?

Captain JONES. I had not been told that. I had heard some discussion. We have a large map of downtown, city of Dallas, that sits inside of the chief's office where the secretaries sit outside there, and one of the chiefs, I don't recall which one it was, was over there talking to someone else about a proposed route. I don't know what it was. I was not told.

Mr. HUBERT. About what time was that?

Captain JONES. Oh, just prior to my going to the basement.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, just prior to 11 o'clock?

Captain JONES. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. They were discussing what route to take?

Captain JONES. Discussing route, and I don't know what arrangements was made.

Mr. HUBERT. Let's go back into the basement where you left off at the end of the last sequence of questions. What time, roughly, would it have been when you had completed the duty of informing the police who were at the top of the Commerce Street entrance, and after you had informed Captain Talbert, and after you had gotten these three men----

Captain JONES. To the jail office there?

Mr. HUBERT. What time was it, about?

Captain JONES. Well, it would take a minimum, I would say, of 5 minutes, to come up that. It would vary a little, and possibly more, depending on how fast the elevators came up and so forth.

Mr. HUBERT. What did you do next then?

Captain JONES. Next thing I did--it was brought to my attention--we don't have a chart here so I will have----

Mr. HUBERT. Here; I am going to mark it, "Dallas, Texas, March 24, 1963. Exhibit 5057, deposition of Capt. O. A. Jones." I am signing my name below it and I would like you to sign your name, here.

Captain JONES. All right, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. And then will you use the exhibit as you see fit. Let me say to you that if you do refer to the exhibit please indicate in words where it is rather than pointing to it because it will not make sense later on.

Captain JONES. All right.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, you were saying about the basement----

Captain JONES. When I got off the elevator, came out and left the elevator--all right, now, someone brought it to my attention that photographers and news media were in this part of the jail.

Mr. HUBERT. In the jail?

Captain JONES. Jail office, outside.

Mr. HUBERT. Outside of the desks?

Captain JONES. Outside the booking area, outside of the desk part of the jail office, and newsmen all out in here [indicating].

Mr. HUBERT. When you say "here," you are pointing to the jail area?

Captain JONES. The corridor they have from the driveway from the basement jail office.

Mr. HUBERT. On the east side of the swinging doors?

Captain JONES. On the east side of the swinging doors; yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, what did you do?

Captain JONES. I did not know the instructions given to the other officers down there prior to that. Nothing. So, immediately after seeing them--I saw Chief Batchelor and Chief Stevenson come out the swinging doors into the area, and Batchelor, being the highest ranking officer present, I pointed these people out to him, and----

Mr. HUBERT. That is to say, in the jail office?