Chapter XXVI: Part 26

Sergeant STEELE. Not much of anything for a while. Stayed down there in the basement for I guess 30 or 40 minutes and everything was kind of at a standstill.

Mr. HUBERT. What time was that?

Sergeant STEELE. About the time I finished checking the buildings, and everything, I guess it was--now, wait a minute. Excuse me. Then I reported--after I checked those buildings, I reported to Captain Talbert that there was a large crowd of pedestrians on the sidewalk right outside of the vehicular route, and he--told me to get some men, some reserve officers if I could, and move them across the street onto the south side of Commerce Street.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you do that?

Sergeant STEELE. Yes, I got five reserve officers and took them out there and told them what I wanted them to do. Helped them do it. Moved all the pedestrians across over to the south side of the street, and I stationed two of them at the corner of Harwood and Commerce, the northeast corner, with instructions to restrict any pedestrian traffic. In other words, not to allow them to come back to that vehicular exit, and I put two more down at Pearl and Commerce Street, and one at the door to city hall with the same instructions.

Mr. HUBERT. That is the Commerce----

Sergeant STEELE. The municipal building. The nearest door to the municipal building.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you place any on the Main Street door to the municipal building?

Sergeant STEELE. No, sir; I never got to the Main Street.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you place any officers to direct traffic at the intersection of Main and Pearl, or to control traffic?

Sergeant STEELE. Well, we started--can I go on?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes; surely.

Sergeant STEELE. Well, we'll get to that. After I got these reserve people put out, as I say, I got down--went down in the basement and talked to the captain for a few minutes. And I stood around and things were kind of at a standstill there. There was lots of television and camera people in there, and about 10:30, I guess, the captain told Sergeant Dean, who related to myself and Sergeant Putnam that they would bring this armored car in and the armored car was going to go down Main Street to the county jail, and he said to get all the regular patrol officers, all the regular officers and assign them to traffic intersections, traffic corners.

Mr. HUBERT. On what street?

Sergeant STEELE. On Main Street, and I just helped Sergeant Dean make the assignments. I don't recall whether I specifically assigned a man to Main and Pearl, but then the captain came along a few minutes later and said it had been changed, that we were going to run the armored car down Elm Street, so, whatever men we may have assigned to Main and Pearl, that is where he would have been, and he was taken off the assignment. They never went to it.

Mr. HUBERT. Okay. So, as far as you know there were no police officers of any sort, reserve or regular directing traffic or controlling it in any way on the corner of Main and Pearl?

Sergeant STEELE. To the best of my knowledge, there was no regular officer.

Mr. HUBERT. What about a reserve officer?

Sergeant STEELE. I couldn't say that.

Mr. HUBERT. In any case, the original plan to assign one to Pearl and Main, wasn't carried out because of the change in plans, and that man, whoever he was, went to Pearl and Elm?

Sergeant STEELE. Yes. I think that it was--let's see. I believe it was one of my men from Oak Cliff, but I'm not sure, but he never did get to it.

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Sergeant STEELE. We didn't even leave the basement.

Mr. HUBERT. Where were you when the shot was fired?

Sergeant STEELE. I was at the county jail.

Mr. HUBERT. I mean in the basement?

Sergeant STEELE. No; I had left.

Mr. HUBERT. Oh, you had left, so, you weren't in this building at all?

Sergeant STEELE. I left about 15 minutes before it occurred. See, we didn't have enough officers, enough radio patrolmen to fill all the corners to put a man at each intersection on Elm Street, so, I went to the county to contact the traffic people and see if I could get three men from them, that is how many we needed.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know a man by the name of Ralph Paul that lives in Arlington?

Sergeant STEELE. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Are you familiar with a place called "The Bull Pen" there?

Sergeant STEELE. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. What is "The Bull Pen"?

Sergeant STEELE. It is a barbecue place, sell beer.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know the manager of it?

Sergeant STEELE. No, no; I can't recall being in that place more than once or twice.

Mr. HUBERT. And the name Ralph Paul doesn't mean anything to you?

Sergeant STEELE. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know Ruby?

Sergeant STEELE. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. How well do you know him?

Sergeant STEELE. Through contacts, various contacts when I was a patrolman.

Mr. HUBERT. How long had you known him?

Sergeant STEELE. Well, I had actually first met him, or heard of, or saw Jack Ruby, I guess, in 1955, about 8 years.

Mr. HUBERT. Would you recognize him by sight, do you think, if you saw him?

Sergeant STEELE. Yes; I feel like I would, although, it has been several years since I have seen him in person.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you have occasion to observe the number of people who were standing in the Main Street ramp part of the basement just at the entrance of the jail corridor? Do you know what I mean? In other words, as you were standing in the basement looking toward Main Street where the jail corridor intersects the ramp----

Sergeant STEELE. Right at the corner----

Mr. HUBERT. Right at the corner, and looking toward Main Street, did you have occasion to observe how many people were in that area just shortly before the shooting?

Sergeant STEELE. Well, 15 minutes would be as close as I could go, and at that time only probably 10 or 12, kind of milling around. Reporters, television people walking back and forth and that sort of thing.

Mr. HUBERT. You left the building about 11?

Sergeant STEELE. Approximately 11; yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know what kind of car Jack Ruby drives?

Sergeant STEELE. No. Years ago seems to me like he had a Buick, but that was years ago when I was a patrolman and it has been over 5 years. I think he had a Buick at that time.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, you have not been interviewed by me or any member of the Commission's staff prior to this deposition tonight, have you, sir?

Sergeant STEELE. No.

Mr. HUBERT. All right. Have you anything else you wish to add?

Sergeant STEELE. I guess I ought to mention this officer who was with me during all of this.

Mr. HUBERT. Who was that?

Sergeant STEELE. J. F. Harrison.

Mr. HUBERT. By the way, I meant to ask you, you have read those statements?

Sergeant STEELE. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. I'll mark the one dated November 25, 1963, addressed to Chief of Police Curry, apparently the original was signed by you, by placing on that document, "Dallas, Texas, March 25th, 1964. Exhibit 5098. Deposition of D. F. Steele," and mark my name below it, and I have marked another document which purports to be an interview by FBI Agents Robertson and Scott of you on December 3, 1963, by marking the first page, "Dallas, Texas, March 25th, 1964, Exhibit 5097, deposition of D. F. Steele." And I sign my name. On the second page of the document I have placed my initials on the bottom of the right-hand corner of the page. I would like to ask you if you have read those, and if those statements are correct?

Sergeant STEELE. I have read them. The only thing that I would say, in paragraph--this would be No. 6. Let's see. One, two, three, four, five, be paragraph No. 6.

Mr. HUBERT. Of Exhibit 50----

Sergeant STEELE. 5097.

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Sergeant STEELE. It mentions that I assisted Sergeant Dean in redistributing the newsmen and TV men in the basement area, but actually, I didn't do that.

Mr. HUBERT. Other than that correction, are those two exhibits correct, so far as you know?

Sergeant STEELE. Can I clarify one?

Mr. HUBERT. Oh, yes; certainly.

Sergeant STEELE. On page 2, of that same----

Mr. HUBERT. 5097?

Sergeant STEELE. Yes, sir; paragraph No. 7, says that I did not have knowledge of security measures in effect in the police building. I had knowledge that there was some type of pass required, but this was my first contact with it, and it was being handled by the other sergeant, so, consequently, I didn't know too much about what was required to enter the basement, but I knew that the men on the checkpoint did know what they were supposed to be checking for. And the next paragraph says I had not seen Ruby in approximately 2 years. I'd say probably more like 3 years when I was a jail sergeant.

Mr. HUBERT. Any other corrections or additions you wish to make?

Sergeant STEELE. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, so that the record may show that we are talking about the same document would you put your name below mine where it appears and your initials below mine where they appear on the second page. Your name there.

Sergeant STEELE. Just sign my name right here?

Mr. HUBERT. That's right; and just put your initials on the bottom.

Sergeant STEELE. Down here?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes; and then the other single documents just sign your name below mine. All right, sir. Thank you very much.

TESTIMONY OF ROY EUGENE VAUGHN

The testimony of Roy Eugene Vaughn was taken at 9:10 a.m., on April 17, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr., assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. HUBERT. Mr. Vaughn, my name is Leon Hubert. I'm a member of the advisory staff of the general counsel of the President's Commission. Under the provisions of Executive Order 11130, dated November 29, 1963, and the joint resolution of Congress No. 137, and the rules of procedure adopted by the Commission in conformance with the Executive order and joint resolution, I have been authorized to take a sworn statement from you.

I state to you now that the general nature of the Commission's inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate, and report upon facts relating to the assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of Lee Harvey Oswald.

In particular to you, Mr. Vaughn, the nature of the inquiry today is to determine what facts you know about the death of Oswald and any other pertinent facts you may know about the general inquiry, and more particularly about the entry or possible entry of Ruby into the basement through the Main Street ramp. Did you get a letter directed to you?

Mr. VAUGHN. To appear here?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Mr. VAUGHN. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. That letter was a written request, written by Mr. J. Lee Rankin, General Counsel of the Commission, to you asking you to appear; is that correct?

Mr. VAUGHN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Was that letter received by you more than 3 days from this day?

Mr. VAUGHN. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Will you rise and take the oath?

Do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. VAUGHN. I do.

Mr. HUBERT. Will you state your name?

Mr. VAUGHN. Roy Eugene Vaughn.

Mr. HUBERT. How old are you, sir?

Mr. VAUGHN. I am 29.

Mr. HUBERT. Where do you live?

Mr. VAUGHN. 3231 Loganwood Drive, Dallas, Tex.

Mr. HUBERT. What is your occupation?

Mr. VAUGHN. Police officer.

Mr. HUBERT. How long have you been on the police force?

Mr. VAUGHN. Almost 6 years.

Mr. HUBERT. What rank or rating do you hold now?

Mr. VAUGHN. Patrolman.

Mr. HUBERT. You were on duty at the police department on Sunday, November 24?

Mr. VAUGHN. That's correct.

Mr. HUBERT. What time did you report for duty?

Mr. VAUGHN. I'd say at approximately 9 a.m. we got a call to call the patrol office.

Mr. HUBERT. You mean your normal station was not at headquarters?

Mr. VAUGHN. Oh, no, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Where was your normal station?

Mr. VAUGHN. At this particular month, being the month we worked days, and I work relief--I don't work any certain district--and I work just more or less wherever I am needed.

Mr. HUBERT. So, they let you know at your home in some way?

Mr. VAUGHN. No, sir; I had already reported for work. I was working with squad 105 that particular morning, which is in the downtown area.

Mr. HUBERT. That's a patrol car?

Mr. VAUGHN. Yes--district 105, and approximately at 9 a.m. I got a call to call 511, which is patrol headquarters. Officer L. C. Taylor, who answered the phone, advised me to report to the city hall and park my car and report to 511.

Mr. HUBERT. What is 511?

Mr. VAUGHN. Which would be the patrol office--that's the extension number which is commonly referred to as such.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you do so?

Mr. VAUGHN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you have a partner?

Mr. VAUGHN. No, sir; I didn't.

Mr. HUBERT. About what time did you report?

Mr. VAUGHN. I would say approximately 9:15, Mr. Hubert.

Mr. HUBERT. And when you got there what happened?

Mr. VAUGHN. I walked in the--there was a little small assembly room off of the main office, and I walked in there--there was several men, officers in there--there was Officer Patterson, Officer Brock, and I think R. C. Nelson, I believe, came in a little later, and they had the coffee pot on and so we, I think most of us got a cup of coffee and was just sitting there talking.

Mr. HUBERT. What happened then?

Mr. VAUGHN. Then Lieutenant Pierce walked in and told me and Officer Nelson and Officer Brock and Officer Patterson to report to Sergeant Dean in the basement, and he told me to tell Sergeant Dean when this was secured, when the basement was secured, to leave two men in the basement and secure the others.

Mr. HUBERT. To leave two men in the basement and to what?

Mr. VAUGHN. Well, he said after this was all completed, this transferring was completed, to leave two men--that means to leave two men in the basement area and to secure the other two.

Mr. HUBERT. And to secure the other two what?

Mr. VAUGHN. Two men--you see, there were four of us that went down and he said to leave two in the basement and to secure the other two.

Mr. HUBERT. What does that mean, "secure the other two?"

Mr. VAUGHN. Well, that means just turn them loose and send them back to their regular duties.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, of the four men, you were to help in whatever Dean was doing, and then he told you, "Tell Dean--leave two men in the basement and turn the other two loose?"

Mr. VAUGHN. Yes; that's after everything was completed. That's his message that he more or less sent by me to Sergeant Dean.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, does that term "secure" mean to turn the men loose--does that mean they would go off duty or that they were to report back somewhere else to work?

Mr. VAUGHN. They were to report back for somewhere else.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you follow those instructions?

Mr. VAUGHN. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you have any part in the checkout of the basement?

Mr. VAUGHN. As far as actually checking the basement?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes, sir.

Mr. VAUGHN. Well, I was assigned by Sergeant Putnam, who was with Sergeant Dean in the basement, when we got down there--Sergeant Putnam assigned me to the Main Street ramp and I believe he assigned also Patrolman Patterson to the Commerce Street ramp.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, about what time did he assign you to the Main Street entrance?

Mr. VAUGHN. I would say, Mr. Hubert, somewhere around 9:30--I couldn't be definite.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he give you any instructions?

Mr. VAUGHN. Yes; he said not to let anybody enter the basement except police and the press, and only the press when they had an official press card, and if I didn't recognize any officer by sight to require identification.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you understand by that that he meant that even if an officer was in what purported to be a uniform, that you weren't to let him in anyhow unless he had an identification?

Mr. VAUGHN. Well, he said--the way I understand it, Mr. Hubert, if I recognized them by sight and knew them to be an officer, and by my own knowing them, then otherwise, where I think it was more applied--to where--he said there would possibly be some Secret Service men and possibly would be some Federal agents I didn't know, and would I require identification from them.

Mr. HUBERT. What did you understand to mean by proper press accreditation or identification?

Mr. VAUGHN. Well, there was one case where--there are several different types of press cards. The only one that I would accept from them which would be, and I think in one or two cases, was the official card either issued by the States of Texas or by the City of Dallas, which contained the photograph of the reporter.

Mr. HUBERT. Otherwise, even though they had something that looked like a press card, you understood that you were to turn them away?

Mr. VAUGHN. Yes, sir; that's right.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you in fact turn away some people?

Mr. VAUGHN. I had one particular--yes, I turned away several people that were not press--they would try to enter the ramp. Of course, this is--normally a person going to the jail, which is immediately off of the bottom of the ramp--a lot of people will try to use that ramp as an entrance to the jail and there were a lot of people that come up there and said that they were going to the jail and I turned them away and told them to go some other way.

There was one reporter that come up and I believe he was with either Associated Press or United Press, I don't recall exactly, and he had on a sweater--first he asked me if some man was in the basement, some other reporter, and I told him I didn't know, and he said he wanted to go down and see him, and I told him I couldn't permit him to without identification, and he pulled out a pass which is--I don't know how to express it--a large yellow pass, more or less a complimentary press pass and I told him I couldn't accept that and he dug around in his billfold and he finally did come up with a pass. I believe this particular pass was issued by the State of California or the City of Los Angeles, but it was similar to our official pass.

Mr. HUBERT. And you recognized that?

Mr. VAUGHN. Yes; I did.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you know Jack Ruby at all prior to this occasion?

Mr. VAUGHN. Well, I had met Mr. Ruby prior to this time, Mr. Hubert.

Mr. HUBERT. How many times would you say?

Mr. VAUGHN. I would say two or three times to be at the most.

Mr. HUBERT. How long before November 24?

Mr. VAUGHN. When I was a rookie in 1959, I met Mr. Ruby while I was working a district out of Oak Lawn and I was more or less being trained at that time, riding with another senior officer and an occasion arose where they had to contact him about a white waitress that he had worked--had worked for him and had been intimate with some colored musicians that he had.

Mr. HUBERT. And you met him on that occasion?

Mr. VAUGHN. Yes, sir; actually, I was just there. I hadn't--I knew the man.

Mr. HUBERT. How long did that interview last?

Mr. VAUGHN. Oh, I'd say just a very few minutes--I don't recall.

Mr. HUBERT. When was the second time you saw him?

Mr. VAUGHN. The second time was, I believe it was in 1961, and either the last of December or the middle of December.

Mr. HUBERT. Tell us about that occasion.

Mr. VAUGHN. Well, I had him on a traffic violation--a minor traffic violation.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you recognize him as the man you had seen before?

Mr. VAUGHN. Not until he told me who he was and I reprimanded him and let him go--didn't even issue him a ticket.

Mr. HUBERT. How long did that interview if we can call it that, with Ruby, last?

Mr. VAUGHN. I would say at most probably 5 minutes.

Mr. HUBERT. When was the third time you saw him, and I think the third time would have been the last time, too?

Mr. VAUGHN. As I recall that's about the last time I have ever seen the fellow.

Mr. HUBERT. I thought you said there were three times?

Mr. VAUGHN. Well, either two or three--I couldn't be exact--I believe, like I said, I probably may have seen him more, but you know, just passing him when I was working on the district, but like I say, it would be difficult for me to recall definitely the times--I can recall definitely two times.

Mr. HUBERT. Have you ever been to either of his clubs or any of his clubs?

Mr. VAUGHN. I have been to the Vegas Club, I would say, possibly twice.

Mr. HUBERT. What about the Carousel or the Sovereign?

Mr. VAUGHN. I didn't even know he had the Carousel.

Mr. HUBERT. The Silver Slipper or any of his other clubs?

Mr. VAUGHN. I didn't even know he had them.

Mr. HUBERT. On the two occasions that you went to the Vegas, did you see him?

Mr. VAUGHN. Not that I recall--ever seeing him.

Mr. HUBERT. How long ago were those occasions?

Mr. VAUGHN. This would also be in 1959.

Mr. HUBERT. So, the last time you really saw him was in December 1961?

Mr. VAUGHN. I believe it would be in December 1961--there were other occasions that I was in his club. I was on duty and actually just making a routine check or answering a call there. I had actually never been in his club except on business.

Mr. HUBERT. On those occasions that you did go on business, do you recall having seen him?

Mr. VAUGHN. No; I don't, I don't recall seeing him.

Mr. HUBERT. When you stated you were posted at the Main Street ramp, by that I take it you mean the exit of the Main Street ramp, that is to say, where it comes out?

Mr. VAUGHN. Yes; out onto the street--onto the sidewalk.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, physically where did you maintain your post?

Mr. VAUGHN. I maintained it inside--actually, I would say 2 or 3 feet inside--actually--of the ramp.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, you weren't on the sidewalk?

Mr. VAUGHN. Oh, no; I was inside--standing inside the ramp.

Mr. HUBERT. The ramp is about how many feet wide?

Mr. VAUGHN. I would just have to estimate it--I would say it was 12 to 15 feet.

Mr. HUBERT. And you were standing more or less in the middle?

Mr. VAUGHN. In the middle.

Mr. HUBERT. And that was about from 9:30 on?

Mr. VAUGHN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever leave that post?

Mr. VAUGHN. The only time when I ever moved out of my position there was when this car which was driven by Lieutenant Pierce exited by that ramp.

Mr. HUBERT. Before we get to that, let me ask you this--you mentioned that on several occasions people came in, identified themselves and you let them through, or you turned away other people?

Mr. VAUGHN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. What steps did you take to maintain the security of your post while you were talking to such people so that other people wouldn't sneak through?

Mr. VAUGHN. I was still standing in the middle of the ramp.

Mr. HUBERT. It would be impossible, you think, for anybody to pass on either side of you?

Mr. VAUGHN. That's right--without seeing them.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, coming to the time when the automobile passed through, tell us what you know about that?

Mr. VAUGHN. Well, I would say it was approximately a quarter or a little past--about 18 minutes past 11, somewhere around there--I wouldn't be exact on the time.

Mr. HUBERT. How do you fix that time?

Mr. VAUGHN. Well, they established, I think, that the shooting occurred at 11:21 and I'm just judging by the minutes before.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, what you say is that you don't really have a direct recollection of what time it was, but you reconstructed it with the information given to you that the shooting took place at such and such a time?

Mr. VAUGHN. Yes--at such and such a time.

Mr. HUBERT. Let's do it this way. How long before you heard the shot did that car driven by Rio Pierce pass by you?

Mr. VAUGHN. I would say not over 3 minutes.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, did you recognize anybody in the car?

Mr. VAUGHN. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. What did you do when the car came up?

Mr. VAUGHN. The first thing I noticed the car--still standing inside the ramp--and I heard someone at the bottom of the ramp holler, "Watch the car," and when I looked down you could just get a view of the front end of the car coming up the ramp. It had its red lights on, which were in the grill. As it come on up the ramp, I stepped to my right, and it come up the ramp----

Mr. HUBERT. You stepped towards Pearl Street?

Mr. VAUGHN. Yes--towards Pearl Street, and I stepped to my right in order to get out of the car's way, and I stepped out on the sidewalk somewhere between the sidewalk and the curb, I believe it was right around the curb, and I glanced--it would be toward the eastbound traffic, which would be traffic towards Pearl Street to see that traffic was clear, and then motioned them on and I turned around and walked back.

Mr. HUBERT. You did not go into the street at all?

Mr. VAUGHN. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. You did not pass the curb?

Mr. VAUGHN. No, sir; not that I recall--I don't believe I did at all.

Mr. HUBERT. Would you say that when you stepped to the right and walked on the sidewalk to the curb you looked for the traffic--to your right?

Mr. VAUGHN. Actually, the way I was facing it would be to my left, which would be west.

Mr. HUBERT. It would be towards Harwood Street?

Mr. VAUGHN. Yes--towards Harwood Street.

Mr. HUBERT. Was your back then toward the ramp entrance?

Mr. VAUGHN. No, sir; my back was not toward the ramp, I was standing to the right of the ramp where I still had a view of the ramp itself, the entrance to the ramp. My back would have been toward Pearl Street--it would be towards the east.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever turn your head or your body toward your right, that is, toward Pearl Street?

Mr. VAUGHN. No, sir; not that I recall. All I done on that, Mr. Hubert, like I say, I walked out--I glanced west, which would be towards the eastbound traffic going west and due to the fact that there were cars parked along here on Main Street, I glanced to the west and seen there was an opening in the eastbound traffic, which would be coming from the west, and I just motioned them on.

Mr. HUBERT. You did not go out in the middle of the street to halt traffic?

Mr. VAUGHN. No, sir; I did not.

Mr. HUBERT. Were there many people standing around that entrance?

Mr. VAUGHN. No, sir; I would say at most, I believe, at most it would be a half dozen, I think, who were standing there.

Mr. HUBERT. Were they standing in front or to the side?

Mr. VAUGHN. Oh, there was one particular person that I recall that was standing on my right, which would be toward Pearl Street--would be N. J. Daniels.

Mr. HUBERT. You did see him?

Mr. VAUGHN. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. He is a former policeman?

Mr. VAUGHN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And you recognized him as such?

Mr. VAUGHN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And he was in civilian clothes?

Mr. VAUGHN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. You know that little concrete or stone projection out into the sidewalk?

Mr. VAUGHN. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. I think that they have two of those, one on each side of the ramp and they extend about 5 or 6 feet into the sidewalk from the side of the building toward the curb--is it correct to say that they are about 12 inches high?

Mr. VAUGHN. I believe they are a little higher--I believe they would be about 18 inches high.

Mr. HUBERT. On what side of the ramp was Daniels?

Mr. VAUGHN. He would be on the east side, toward Pearl Street there.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, after the Pierce car passed by, what did you do?

Mr. VAUGHN. I walked back inside the ramp to my original post, which was 2 or 3 feet inside.

Mr. HUBERT. And you stayed there until after the shot was fired?

Mr. VAUGHN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Did anyone go by you after you returned to your post, following the exit of the Rio Pierce car?

Mr. VAUGHN. No, sir; not that I recall--I don't believe there was.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, you qualify that by saying, "Not that you recall"--I had understood from your previous testimony that it would have been impossible for anybody to do so.

Mr. VAUGHN. Well, as far as--actually, when I got inside the ramp, I don't believe there was anybody that went by between the time that I stepped back inside and the actual time of the shooting. When I say I recall, well, I'll put it definite--I know there wasn't--I'll put it that way.

Mr. HUBERT. That's the way I had understood your previous testimony, because I had asked you as to whether it were possible for anyone to have passed by you previously when you were examining the credentials of others.

Mr. VAUGHN. No.

Mr. HUBERT. And I think your answer to me was--no, it was impossible--they would have had to go either to the left or right of you and you were standing in the middle of a 12-foot opening?

Mr. VAUGHN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Is it fair to say, then, that after you got back to your post, following the exit of Rio Pierce's car, that nobody passed you?

Mr. VAUGHN. Nobody passed me.

Mr. HUBERT. Specifically, did Jack Ruby pass you?

Mr. VAUGHN. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, when the Rio Pierce car was coming out, what steps or action did you take to maintain the security of your post while that car was passing through?

Mr. VAUGHN. The only steps, like I said, Mr. Hubert, on that--is when I stepped out onto the sidewalks--why--I made sure that my view of the entrance of the city hall was not completely blocked, that I could still see the entrance to the right.

Mr. HUBERT. You use the words "completely blocked," do you mean to infer by that it could have been partially blocked?

Mr. VAUGHN. No, sir; the only thing--when I stepped out, as the car came out, I still had a view of the actual entrance to the ramp.

Mr. HUBERT. Would it have been possible that part of your view was blocked by the automobile itself?

Mr. VAUGHN. It possibly--for an instant while the car was coming out--actually out of the entrance--but after it cleared the ramp--no, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. After it cleared the entrance you returned your view to your post, even though you weren't at it?

Mr. VAUGHN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And nobody entered it at that time?

Mr. VAUGHN. No, sir; they did not.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever see Jack Ruby standing by that concrete or marble--what do you call it?

Mr. VAUGHN. Slab there.

Mr. HUBERT. Standing by that slab there where Daniels was?

Mr. VAUGHN. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Was there anybody else with Daniels?

Mr. VAUGHN. No; not that I recall seeing that morning. Now, Daniels worked up there around approximately 2 or 3 feet--he was there quite some time and during the morning there were several people that would walk by the Main Street entrance and they would look in, more or less curiosity seekers more than anything else. There were very few that actually stopped and there was one particular man that did stop that I recall--I don't know his name. He was on the left of the ramp which would be toward the Harwood Street side. He used to be a shine boy in the basement of the city hall.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember some city hall janitorial workers, particularly a man by the name of Fuqua--did you see any people dressed in janitorial uniforms pass by?

Mr. VAUGHN. As I recall, I seen some men walk down the street there and look in the ramp and they walked on.

Mr. HUBERT. Which way were they coming from?

Mr. VAUGHN. I believe they were coming from the east.

Mr. HUBERT. That is what direction?

Mr. VAUGHN. From Pearl--towards Harwood.

Mr. HUBERT. They just passed by?

Mr. VAUGHN. They would have hesitated for just a minute.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall how long before the shooting they passed by?

Mr. VAUGHN. I would just have to estimate--just an estimate--I would say it was probably 15 or 20 minutes, something like that.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you think it would have been possible for anyone to enter the basement who was approaching the Main Street ramp from Pearl Street or the Western Union direction, while the Pierce car was exiting?

Mr. VAUGHN. No; I don't believe it would.

Mr. HUBERT. And why do you say that?

Mr. VAUGHN. Because--due to the fact--the time, the period of time--like I said, I had a view of the ramp from the period of time the car actually come out, and I waved it on and walked back to the ramp.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, you know, of course, that Ruby says that's the way he got in?

Mr. VAUGHN. Yes, I realize that.

Mr. HUBERT. What is your opinion about that statement?

Mr. VAUGHN. I don't believe he did.

Mr. HUBERT. You think he got in some other way?

Mr. VAUGHN. I don't know definitely, but I'll say he didn't come in at the ramp. How he got in--that, I don't know, but I know--I don't believe that he came in the ramp.

Mr. HUBERT. Is it your opinion beyond any reasonable doubt, and I think you are familiar with that phrase as an officer, aren't you?

Mr. VAUGHN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. That Ruby did not enter the basement through the ramp while you were there?

Mr. VAUGHN. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Is that opinion so strong that if you were a juror, for example, you would convict a man or acquit him, whichever it would be, on the basis of your statement that he did not enter at that ramp?

Mr. VAUGHN. Well, now, what do you mean by that?

Mr. HUBERT. That's the reasonable doubt test, you see.

Mr. VAUGHN. You mean as far as I am concerned--as far as what I think about it, that I definitely do not think the man come down that ramp.

Mr. HUBERT. But I was testing the strength of your view.

Mr. VAUGHN. Well, I don't quite understand or follow you?

Mr. HUBERT. Well, here's what I had in mind--I'll put it this way--do you have the moral conviction that Jack Ruby did not enter the basement through the Main Street ramp to the degree that if that were an issue in a case on which you were a juror, you would say that it is beyond a reasonable doubt that he did not enter that way?

Mr. VAUGHN. So far as the knowledge I have of it--no, sir--I do not. I think if the question is that you think I would convict him on the doubt--of the knowledge that I have that he did not enter that ramp--yes, sir, I would.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, you think it is beyond a reasonable doubt, as far as you are concerned?

Mr. VAUGHN. As far as I am concerned--yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember a man who turned out to be a police mechanic?

Mr. VAUGHN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know his name?

Mr. VAUGHN. Tom Chabot [spelling] C-h-a-b-o-t--I don't think I can spell it actually--anyway, Chabot.

Mr. HUBERT. When did he enter the basement?

Mr. VAUGHN. Oh, this was somewhat earlier--he pulled up in a city squad car and started into the ramp.

Mr. HUBERT. How much earlier was it, and earlier than what?

Mr. VAUGHN. It was, I would say--it was approximately--just an estimate, it would be somewhere around 10 o'clock.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, this man Chabot went into the basement about an hour and 20 minutes before the shooting?

Mr. VAUGHN. Somewhere around there--like I said--it would strictly be an estimate on the time.

Mr. HUBERT. What happened--he tried or he went through?

Mr. VAUGHN. Well, he pulled up in a city squad car and I told him I couldn't allow him in the basement in a squad car and so, he backed the car out and he parked it on Main Street, which would be actually east toward Pearl Street from--it would be on my right from the entrance or exit there--it would be on the right. He parked there and he got out and he come back and he come back up where I was standing inside the ramp, and he stood there a minute or two and talked to me, and, of course, I had known Chabot ever since I had been there. He's married to a policewoman, and he stood there a minute and he told me, he said, "I've got to check the parking situation in the basement."

He said on two previous dates he had had to work later until about 5:30--and so I told him to go ahead, due to the fact that I knew it was Sunday--I seen him driving a squad car--I thought possibly maybe they had sent for him, and there was several cars in the basement, so I told him to go ahead, and I seen him walk down in there--I was standing, and he was standing in my view--I could see him, and he walked down there and I got the view when he was talking to Sergeant Dean, and in 2 or 3 minutes he had come back up. He stopped there and chatted with me a minute and never said a thing, as far as telling him to leave the basement, so then he got out and went and got in the squad car and left.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, tell us what happened when you heard the shot?

Mr. VAUGHN. Well, after I had stepped back in there when Lieutenant Pierce had left--stepped back inside the ramp, it was, I would say, not over 3 minutes I heard somebody holler, "Here he comes," and so--I turned around and glanced--I couldn't see anything--all I could see was an outline of a few figures at the bottom.

Mr. HUBERT. You turned then so that your back was to Main Street and you were looking around?

Mr. VAUGHN. I was standing to a side view--I turned like this and looked right just like this a little way.

Mr. HUBERT. You looked over your shoulder?

Mr. VAUGHN. I didn't actually turn, and just immediately after that I heard something that sounded like a shot, but you know, at the point--it was something like an explosion, but it didn't sound loud enough to actually be a shot.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you see any movement?

Mr. VAUGHN. Well, at that time there was just mass confusion.

Mr. HUBERT. No; I'm talking about a movement after you heard somebody say, "Here he comes," and turned and looked back.

Mr. VAUGHN. No; sir--as far as any movement on the street.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, specifically, did you see any move forward?

Mr. VAUGHN. Oh, no.

Mr. HUBERT. Which way were you looking when you heard the shot?

Mr. VAUGHN. When I heard the shot I was looking back outside the entrance.

Mr. HUBERT. Onto Main Street?

Mr. VAUGHN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Let me get this straight then--you were standing there facing Main Street?

Mr. VAUGHN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. In the ramp?

Mr. VAUGHN. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Or a few feet inside the ramp?

Mr. VAUGHN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. You heard somebody holler, "Here he comes," you glanced over your shoulder, you saw nothing that was of significance?

Mr. VAUGHN. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Then turned back?

Mr. VAUGHN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Then you heard the shots?

Mr. VAUGHN. Then I heard the shots.

Mr. HUBERT. And when you turned to look down the basement after you heard "Here he comes," you did not see Jack Ruby down there?

Mr. VAUGHN. Oh, no--like I said--the only view I had was--there were so many people in there where it was just the very people on the edge--their backs were to me.

Mr. HUBERT. After you heard the shot, what did you do?

Mr. VAUGHN. There was just mass confusion broke loose in the basement.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you leave your post?

Mr. VAUGHN. I stepped back inside--the people outside--there was quite a crowd beginning to collect outside--I stayed back inside and I drawed my pistol and stood in the edge of the doorway in case anybody tried to come out, because actually I didn't know what had happened, and just immediately after that I seen some of them scuffling down there and I seen a hand--several people scuffling--and I seen part of a hand sticking out and it looked like it had a pistol in it, but that's all I could see was just this part of the hand, and immediately after that there was one man that broke away from the crowd and started up the ramp. Of course, he was in civilian clothes, I couldn't tell who he was, and just as he started, I guess he had taken very few steps from the crowd, there was a reserve that hit him more or less a tackle like and almost knocked him down. Still, they were far enough from me that I couldn't actually tell who it was. And, so, in a minute this reserve let him pass and he come on up the ramp.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know who the reserve was?

Mr. VAUGHN. No, sir; I don't. There were so many of those reserves you know who some of them are and some of them you don't.

Mr. HUBERT. The reserves let him go and he came up the ramp?

Mr. VAUGHN. It was Detective E. O. Burgess.

Mr. HUBERT. You recognized him?

Mr. VAUGHN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And you let him out?

Mr. VAUGHN. No, he didn't go out. He just come up and helped me at top of the ramp.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he give you any instructions or orders?

Mr. VAUGHN. No. I asked him, I said, "What happened?" And he said, "He's been shot."

I said, "Who shot him?" And he said--well, he understood it was a reporter and that was all that was said then, and then immediately after that Captain Talbert, Capt. C. E. Talbert come up the ramp and he told me that if anybody tried to leave to get their names and what they had seen in the basement, and he went back down the ramp and shortly thereafter there was a sergeant, I believe, it was Sergeant Everett--I'm not real positive about that, but he brought me a book to write anybody's name on that did try to leave.

Mr. HUBERT. Did anybody try to leave?

Mr. VAUGHN. Yes, one man--it was quite some time after the shooting occurred--after this, one man tried to leave and he was a reporter up here with WFAA--Dallas Morning News by the name of Millican. I asked him his name. He wrote his name down and I asked him what he had seen. He said he didn't see anything, that he didn't arrive until actually after the shooting happened.

Mr. HUBERT. How did he identify himself?

Mr. VAUGHN. As I recall, with a press card, if I'm not mistaken. I'm not real positive about that.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember an incident in which a TV man by the name of Jim Turner was involved? He had got out and came back in.

Mr. VAUGHN. Well, now, there was two men that went out during the time before the shooting actually happened?

Mr. HUBERT. No; I mean after the shooting. Let me see if I can refresh your memory in this way--a WBAP-TV man went out to get some equipment, apparently satisfied you that he could go out, and then when he tried to come back in again, there was another man there, who you were not allowing to pass through, and this other man asked this man Turner to identify him to you; do you recall that incident?

Mr. VAUGHN. I recall this--there was, like I said earlier, there was two men that went out and got some camera equipment.

Mr. HUBERT. When you said "earlier" you mean before the shot?

Mr. VAUGHN. Oh, yes, yes, sir; it was before the shot--it was shortly after I was stationed on the ramp, I would say right around 10 o'clock. They went out and got some camera equipment. I watched them as they went across the street, the car was parked on Main Street, and then the same two men--I made definitely sure of that, and when they come back in, they were carrying equipment--one of these men that was in this--I don't know his name--come back to the entrance of the ramp and looked out and he had a taxicab parked on the north side of Main Street and he waved at that cab and he told me they were waiting, actually, for when the transfer was made and they were going to take this cab to the county, and after the shooting, if I am not mistaken, the same man came back--it was immediately after the shooting, and tried to get back in the ramp--I would not let him in. I told him definitely that nobody could get back down there and he said he had been down there, and I said, "I'm sorry, I can't let you back in," but he had gone back in carrying the equipment and come back and waved at this taxicab driver after that, on the other side of the ramp, and then went back down the ramp, and the next thing I knew he come back from the outside, immediately after the shooting and wanted me to let him back in, and I told him--no.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember some individual who had a couple of bags and possibly some photographic equipment--he looked something like John Carradine, do you remember that actor, John Carradine, with a wrinkled face?

Mr. VAUGHN. No.

Mr. HUBERT. This fellow had sort of an overcoat on, a tan overcoat and he tried to get out and apparently you wouldn't let him out there because he didn't have the proper identification, and he called upon a TV man who was coming in and whom you knew apparently, to identify him and the TV man said, "No, I can't identify you."

Mr. VAUGHN. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall that incident?

Mr. VAUGHN. No; I don't.

Mr. HUBERT. I think you said that there was one person who came a little later after the shooting who wanted to see Ruby?

Mr. VAUGHN. Yes--this was after--oh, I would say it was approximately an hour or almost an hour after the shooting.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know who that man was?

Mr. VAUGHN. I don't know his name.

Mr. HUBERT. What did he look like?

Mr. VAUGHN. He was a great big fellow. Now, I would say he was in the middle twenties or late twenties.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he say to you he wanted to see Ruby?

Mr. VAUGHN. No, sir--who he actually walked up and asked for--he walked up and I overheard the conversation, if I recall, with one of the reserve officers--they had sent some reserve officers up before that time to help with the traffic and the crowd and I overheard the conversation--he said he was an employee of Jack Ruby's. When I heard that--we was all standing around there--I went and asked him and he asked me if lieutenant, let me see, I don't remember the lieutenant's name--he asked me if there was some lieutenant there and I told him I didn't know. He said, "Well, I am an employee of Jack Ruby's," and he said, "I would like to talk to lieutenant--" I believe he said Cunningham--I'm not real sure; I'm not positive now. Anyway, I asked him then what the deal was and he said, "He just needed to talk to him," and I felt possibly--by that time I had found out actually that Jack Ruby had shot him, and I felt possibly maybe someone wanted to talk to him, and a reserve relieved me on the entrance of the ramp and I went and took this man to the information desk in the basement and I called the homicide bureau and told Detective Boyd--I don't recall if he is the one that answered the phone, but I told whoever it was what the circumstances was, and Detective Boyd come down to the basement and he started searching this man and I helped him search him for any kind of a concealed weapon he might have and I turned him over to him and I left. I don't know the man's name, but he said he was an employee of Jack's.

Mr. HUBERT. Was he a heavy man, you say?

Mr. VAUGHN. He was quite a big man.

Mr. HUBERT. How old would he be?

Mr. VAUGHN. I would say he was in the middle twenties or late twenties.

Mr. HUBERT. What sort of complexion did he have and how was he dressed?

Mr. VAUGHN. I believe he had on a sportcoat and a pair of slacks.

Mr. HUBERT. What was his complexion?

Mr. VAUGHN. Well, he was fair.

Mr. HUBERT. How tall was he?

Mr. VAUGHN. Oh, he was about 6 foot 3 or 4--he was a tall man, but I believe he was heavier.

Mr. HUBERT. Heavier than who?

Mr. VAUGHN. Heavier than me.

Mr. HUBERT. What would you say he weighed?

Mr. VAUGHN. Oh, I would say he weighed around 250.

Mr. HUBERT. Was he bald or balding?

Mr. VAUGHN. Not that I recall--he had quite a bit of hair.

Mr. HUBERT. What color was his hair?

Mr. VAUGHN. I believe--the best I remember I believe it was black.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you notice whether he had a limp or not?

Mr. VAUGHN. No, sir; I didn't notice.

Mr. HUBERT. When did you first hear that Ruby was supposed to have passed by you?