Chapter XXX: Part 30

Mr. CLARDY. I had looked up to the right. Lieutenant Smart, and--I think--I am not for sure--Chief Batchelor was with him at the armored truck, and I did look on over the crowd on back around. Now, this could have been more than 3 minutes before the shooting occurred.

Mr. HUBERT. Were the conditions such that if Ruby had been standing in that crowd you could have singled him out and seen him?

Mr. CLARDY. As many people as there was in there at the time, sir, he could have very easily been behind somebody where I couldn't have seen him.

Mr. HUBERT. Just how many people were in that area where Ruby apparently was? I don't mean an accurate count. Of course, you didn't count them.

Mr. CLARDY. In the area where I presume that he come from, 12 to 15, on over behind the rail there was quite a few people, whether he come across the rail, whether he come down the ramp, like he told us, I don't know.

Mr. HUBERT. But, the Main Street ramp itself going toward Main Street, you figured there were about 15 people?

Mr. CLARDY. From along here [indicating].

Mr. HUBERT. Don't say "along here," because that won't show up.

Mr. CLARDY. So that we'll understand what I mean here, take this. There was people back over in here [indicating].

Mr. HUBERT. Let's call that area "B" and you are talking about area B, and you say there was a considerable amount of people?

Mr. CLARDY. Considerable amount of people back in there and from along here [indicating], across and along in here [indicating], there was----

Mr. HUBERT. Now, I am drawing a semicircle, is that approximately correct?

Mr. CLARDY. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. And I am calling that "line X to Y."

Mr. CLARDY. I'd say there was a minimum of 15 people from here across here [indicating].

Mr. HUBERT. Minimum of 15 people in the front row, or some in the back?

Mr. CLARDY. There were some in the back.

Mr. HUBERT. So, you think there were about 15 people strung along this line that we have marked "X to Y," being a curving line, in--and that there was some back of them, and up the Main Street ramp?

Mr. CLARDY. At the time, I didn't see anybody back up in here anywhere.

Mr. HUBERT. That is to say, you didn't see anybody----

Mr. CLARDY. I didn't see anybody back as far as this [indicating].

Mr. HUBERT. Now, the second line which you have described, "as far as this," is--I'm going to mark that line and put it, for purposes of identification I'm marking it as a line designated by "1" and "2." Both numerals being encircled. I should like you to consider the area which is bounded by these two lines, "XY," and "1, 2," and the rail and at the wall is area A. Tell me how many people you think were in area A?

Mr. CLARDY. In this area here? I----

Mr. HUBERT. In area A, which has been designated by you as being encompassed between line "X" and "1," that being a curving line. Line "1,"--point "1" in a point to point "2" in a circle, the rail and the wall----

Mr. CLARDY. I'd say there was approximately four or five people up and down here [indicating].

Mr. HUBERT. You are describing with the pencil----

Mr. CLARDY. Where the circle is down across here [indicating].

Mr. HUBERT. You are describing with the pencil about four or five people along the rail lining of the basement side of the rail, is that correct?

Mr. CLARDY. Yes, sir--no, sir; on the ramp side.

Mr. HUBERT. Ramp side, parking area side?

Mr. CLARDY. Yes, sir; on the ramp side. Not the parking area side. On the--this being the ramp here [indicating].

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Mr. CLARDY. Coming off from Main.

Mr. HUBERT. I see what you mean, on the ramp side?

Mr. CLARDY. On the ramp side. There was a couple of uniformed officers in this area. I am not sure.

Mr. HUBERT. McMillon was one of them, wasn't he?

Mr. CLARDY. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Oh, it was. You put his position, also, did you see W. J. Harrison in that group?

Mr. CLARDY. W. J.? That is a detective in the juvenile bureau?

Mr. HUBERT. Well, I don't know. I can't testify. I am not--well, that's all right.

Mr. CLARDY. Sir, there was a detective, I am pretty sure the one you are talking about. I don't know him real well?

Mr. HUBERT. That's all right.

Mr. CLARDY. I don't know whether it was Harrison that was along in here [indicating].

Mr. HUBERT. Now, would you make a circle and state where you think "Blackie" Harrison was at the time of the shooting?

Mr. CLARDY. Time I saw Detective Harrison, to the best of my knowledge, he was along in there [indicating].

Mr. HUBERT. I am marking that circle by putting "Position of 'Blackie' Harrison at time of shooting," is that correct or at the time you saw him?

Mr. CLARDY. At the time I checked, looked over the basement, which would have been approximately 3 minutes, 2 or 3 minutes before the shooting.

Mr. HUBERT. You saw him 2 or 3 minutes prior to the shooting. Now, I'll ask you to check that again, that circle that I have designated by the legend, "position of 'Blackie' Harrison at the time Clardy saw him 2 or 3 minutes prior to the shooting." Is that approximately the position of Mr. Harrison at the time designated?

Mr. CLARDY. Correct.

Mr. HUBERT. That was the time you looked over the crowd?

Mr. CLARDY. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. In that area, again, can you tell us about how many people were concentrated?

Mr. CLARDY. Including a couple of uniformed officers in that area, there was possibly six or seven people in that area at that time.

Mr. HUBERT. At the time you looked over at the crowd then you could see that if he stays behind this crowd of people looking up the Main Street ramp----

Mr. CLARDY. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you see anybody come down at all?

Mr. CLARDY. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you see any movement there?

Mr. CLARDY. No, sir. I saw the--I say "movement"--I saw the car that Lieutenant Pierce drove out that ramp, and at the time that the car approached the top of the ramp there was nobody in that area.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you see the car at the top of the ramp?

Mr. CLARDY. Sir, the car now as it went out--let me get this straight here.

Mr. HUBERT. Don't use the map now, if you can do it without it.

Mr. CLARDY. Let me get it straight here. I watched the car drive out until he drove approximately half, or maybe three-fourths of the way up, and at that time, clear back down to here [indicating] there was nobody in between.

Mr. HUBERT. All right.

Mr. CLARDY. Now, as to what--watching it drive on up to the top of the ramp, no, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. You did not see it drive to the top?

Mr. CLARDY. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. But, roughly between half and three-fourths of the way up the ramp? Were you looking in that direction after the car had passed out of the ramp?

Mr. CLARDY. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, do you think this, if anybody had come running down there you would have seen them?

Mr. CLARDY. Sir, it is quite possible that somebody could have come running down there and I wouldn't have seen them.

Mr. HUBERT. You did not, in any case, see anybody?

Mr. CLARDY. I did not see anybody. Now, I was facing more over in--oh, almost straight across the ramp after I looked over the----

Mr. HUBERT. Over the crowd?

Mr. CLARDY. Over the crowd.

Mr. HUBERT. And you looked over the crowd prior to the time the car passed?

Mr. CLARDY. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. You did not look over the crowd then--after that?

Mr. CLARDY. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you think it is possible from your position that anybody could have come down that ramp and you would not have seen them?

Mr. CLARDY. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. What makes you think that, sir?

Mr. CLARDY. Well, I wasn't just in particular watching toward the direction--at the time that Lieutenant Pierce come out, there was a lot of these people moving around, and I was trying to keep an eye on them. At the time the other car was brought out--being brought out, there was a lot of those people over in this area in here moving around [indicating].

Mr. HUBERT. Now, I think you have already testified that as to the actual shooting itself, you just saw a movement?

Mr. CLARDY. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Off to your left?

Mr. CLARDY. Just a blur of movement.

Mr. HUBERT. When did you first identify Ruby?

Mr. CLARDY. After he had been taken inside the jail office.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you speak to him then?

Mr. CLARDY. As I went inside the main jail office they had the cuffs on him, and Detective McMillon said, "Well, let's take him on upstairs." And said, "Barney, take my gun."

I took Detective McMillon's gun out of his holster, and at the time I did, Jack Ruby said, "I'm Jack Ruby. Don't you know me? Don't you know me?" Said, "Yes, I know you, Jack," something to that effect. I am not sure, because I was sick to my stomach of what had happened, and then seeing him and wondering in my own mind how in the world a man had ever got in there. I took Detective McMillon's gun and mine and put it in one of the lockers in the jail office there, which is provided for that purpose. And along with Detective McMillon, Detective "Blackie" Harrison, and Detective Archer, and there was some other detectives on the elevator with us, and I'm not sure who, and we took Ruby directly to the fifth floor.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he make any comments during that trip?

Mr. CLARDY. Sir, I was on the--I was the last one that got to the elevator. If he was--made any comment on the way up I didn't hear him.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, in your statement to the FBI agent which has been identified as No. 5063, you stated he did mention other things. That you had heard Ruby mention that he had intended to get off three shots, do you recall that?

Mr. CLARDY. That was after we got upstairs.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, tell us about that.

Mr. CLARDY. I am not sure who asked him the question. I believe it was Detective Archer, and asked him in some way, "Did you intend to"--or, "Did you think you could kill the man with one shot?" And he said, "I intended to get off three shots." Said, "I didn't think that I could be stopped before I got off three shots." But, that, I----

Mr. HUBERT. Did you ask Ruby, or did anyone ask Ruby in your presence how he had gotten into the basement?

Mr. CLARDY. I asked Ruby.

Mr. HUBERT. You did by yourself?

Mr. CLARDY. I asked him myself, and I am sure there were several others who did.

Mr. HUBERT. That was when you were up on the fifth floor?

Mr. CLARDY. Yes, sir; shortly after he got----

Mr. HUBERT. Shortly after?

Mr. CLARDY. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. What did you ask him, and what did he reply? What did you ask him first?

Mr. CLARDY. I asked him how he got into the basement and how long he had been there. I don't know whether that is the exact words I asked him in or not, and he said that Lieutenant Pierce, or he called him Rio Pierce--I believe said Rio Pierce, Lt. Rio Pierce drove out in the car and the officer stepped out from the ramp momentarily to talk to Lieutenant Pierce, or said something to him, and I come in behind him right on down the ramp, and says, "When I got approximately halfway down the ramp I heard somebody holler, 'Hey, you,' but I don't know whether he was hollering at me or not, but I just ducked my head and kept coming."

Mr. HUBERT. Did he say anything further?

Mr. CLARDY. Further stated, said, "If I had planned this I couldn't have had my timing better." Said, "It was one chance in a million." Or something to that effect. Said, "If I had planned this, I couldn't have had my timing any better."

Mr. HUBERT. Did he make any statement to you as to why he had done it?

Mr. CLARDY. He said--no, somebody--I was going to ask him, and I am sure some other officer asked him as to why. He said, "Somebody had to do it. You all couldn't."

Mr. HUBERT. Is that the only explanation he offered?

Mr. CLARDY. Well, later on we talked to him a little further and he went into this long story about how much he thought of President Kennedy, and how he was remorseful. Didn't want Mrs. Kennedy to have to come to testify on a trial, and----

Mr. HUBERT. Did he say anything here to indicate that he had any accomplices in his act?

Mr. CLARDY. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he mention to you that he had been to the Western Union that morning?

Mr. CLARDY. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he say anything about where his car was?

Mr. CLARDY. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he say anything about there being a dog in it?

Mr. CLARDY. Sir, I recall that he said there was some money in the car. I--I don't recall him saying it in my presence, about the dog being in it. I do recall that he talked later about some dogs that he had that he thought so much of.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, now, a bit earlier when I asked you whether or not there were any omissions from the documents, Exhibits Nos. 5061, 5062, and 5063, you indicated there was an omission concerning what had been said to you by some people who had talked to you. I think that is what the omission--it was something along that line. Do you recall what that was now?

Mr. CLARDY. Well, I think some of the stuff that we have gone into there that you have asked me as to some of the things that were said, or on down the line that I don't--I don't recall any of the FBI agents asking me who come up there and talked to him, whether they did or not, I don't know.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, can you tell me what you had in mind a little while ago in the deposition when you said, "Yes, this is all right, but there has been omitted something," and I told you at that time, "Well, we'll come back to it a bit later," and now, I am coming back to it. I was wondering just what you had in mind when you stated that there had been an omission?

Mr. CLARDY. I don't believe it is in that report that Secret Service agent, Mr. Sorrels, came up shortly after we arrived and talked to Mr. Ruby.

Mr. HUBERT. I think that----

Mr. CLARDY. Whether that is in there or not----

Mr. HUBERT. Is that what you had in mind?

Mr. CLARDY. That and the FBI agent, Mr. Hall, then came up and talked to Ruby off and on until the time that he was taken to Captain Fritz' office.

Mr. HUBERT. How long a period was that?

Mr. CLARDY. Sir, he was up there probably within 15 to 20 minutes after we had taken Mr. Ruby upstairs. Agent Hall was, and he talked to Mr. Ruby at considerable length until he had several telephone calls. I don't know who they were from or what they was about, but, that he was called to the telephone several times while he was up there.

Mr. HUBERT. And Mr. Sorrels was present also?

Mr. CLARDY. Mr. Sorrels had left before Mr. Hall come up there. Sorrels had talked briefly to Mr. Ruby. I say, "briefly," he--approximately 10 minutes.

Mr. HUBERT. Let's see if I can get the time sequence. Within 15 minutes after Ruby was brought to the top--to the fifth floor, Mr. Hall came?

Mr. CLARDY. Uh-huh.

Mr. HUBERT. And interviewed him, with some interruptions by telephone calls, for approximately what, now, an hour and a half?

Mr. CLARDY. I'd say Mr. Hall was up there 3-1/2 hours.

Mr. HUBERT. Three and a half hours.

Mr. CLARDY. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, in the 15 minutes or so before Mr. Hall came, Mr. Sorrels came?

Mr. CLARDY. Mr. Sorrels came.

Mr. HUBERT. And stayed about 10 minutes?

Mr. CLARDY. Mr. Sorrels came up just very briefly. Very shortly after.

Mr. HUBERT. Is that what you meant when you mentioned a little while ago that there was some omissions from your statement?

Mr. CLARDY. That is what I had reference to; yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you have reference to any other omissions?

Mr. CLARDY. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Then, let's put it this way. You have already stated that what is in these records, these three exhibits, 5061, 5062, and 5063, are true and correct; that you did not want to modify or change anything that you had previously said. That it was some omissions, and now, do I understand you to say that the omissions that you previously spoke of is what you just testified to?

Mr. CLARDY. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Are there any other omissions that you know of?

Mr. CLARDY. None that I know of.

Mr. HUBERT. So, that by taking Exhibits 5061, 5062, and 5063, together with your deposition today, is it fair to state that there is on record everything you know about the assassination of Oswald?

Mr. CLARDY. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, other than the interview that you had with me earlier today, have you been interviewed by any member of the Commission staff?

Mr. CLARDY. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, the interview you had with me was prior to lunch, is that correct?

Mr. CLARDY. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Can you state now whether there are any inconsistencies between your deposition and what we discussed at the interview to which I have just referred?

Mr. CLARDY. Nothing other than the--you were referring to those previous statements?

Mr. HUBERT. No; I am referring to any inconsistencies between what you testified today and the interview we had this morning?

Mr. CLARDY. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, have you provided, or had--or did you provide in that interview this morning any material as to which you have not testified to in this deposition?

Mr. CLARDY. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Is there anything else at all that you would like to state that has not been said in one way or another by you?

Mr. CLARDY. Sir, the only thing that I could add in any way, that I can think of, would be that the--Mr. Ruby appeared to be normal on that day.

Mr. HUBERT. Then do you think you knew him well enough to be able to judge whether he was normal or not?

Mr. CLARDY. From his expressions or the way he talked led me to believe that the man was normal, that he knew what he was doing.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, other than that observation then?

Mr. CLARDY. It wouldn't be anything that I could think of that I would add.

Mr. HUBERT. All right; if you do think of anything, I want to ask you to please feel free to come forward and state it, because quite frankly, a person will forget something, and if you do remember anything, don't hesitate to come forward with it, even though you might say to yourself, "Well, I have already said there is nothing more, and now I am coming back to add something." I ask you not to feel that way, but on the other hand, to feel free to come forward, because the Commission wants to know all the facts, and we want to get the facts, even though you may not recollect them until after this deposition is over. I trust you will do that?

Mr. CLARDY. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, then, thank you very much. I want to thank you personally and on behalf of the Commission for your assistance. Thank you, sir.

TESTIMONY OF PATRICK TREVORE DEAN

The testimony of Patrick Trevore Dean was taken at 8 p.m., on March 24, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Burt W. Griffin, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me state for the record, first of all, introduce myself. As you probably heard I am Burt Griffin. I am a member of the advisory staff of the general counsel's office of the President's Commission to Investigate the Assassination of President Kennedy. Now, this Commission was set up under an Executive order of President Johnson, dated November 29, 1963, called Executive Order No. 11130. Also pursuant to a joint resolution of Congress. We have adopted a number of rules and so forth which I will explain to you a little bit beforehand, pursuant to all these resolutions, I have been authorized by the General Counsel to take the deposition of Sgt. P. T. Dean, who is right here.

I want to tell you a little bit about the general nature of the inquiry that we are going into here. As the title of the Commission would indicate,

VOICE. I hate to interrupt, but----

Mr. GRIFFIN. Off the record.

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. GRIFFIN. As I say, I want to tell you a little bit about the scope of this inquiry that we are going to go into. We have been authorized to inquire into and evaluate and report to the President on all the facts relating to the assassination of President Kennedy and all the facts surrounding the death of Lee Harvey Oswald.

Calling you, Sergeant Dean, we are particularly interested in the facts that surround the death of Oswald, although we don't mean to preclude any other information that you may have which may pertain to the whole area in which we are going. There has been a written request made to Chief Curry, by the general counsel of our Commission staff, asking that you appear here some time during this particular week. Now, this is not quite in full keeping with the rules that have been set forth by the Commission. Under the rules of the Commission you are entitled to a 3-day written notice prior to having your deposition taken. This is going to be sworn testimony. The rules also provide, however, that you may waive this notice. I want to ask you right now, Sergeant Dean, if you are willing to waive the written 3-day notice which you can require us to give you?

Mr. DEAN. Yes. I will waive it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Okay. Now, I also want to tell you that you are entitled, under the rules of the Commission to have an attorney present, if you want, and I notice you are not here today with an attorney, and I presume that is your desire, but do you?

Mr. DEAN. I will waive that, also.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Okay. Now, will you raise your right hand? Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth?

Mr. DEAN. I do.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you state for the record your full name?

Mr. DEAN. Patrick Trevore Dean.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where do you live?

Mr. DEAN. 2822 Nicholson, Dallas.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Dallas, Tex.?

Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where are you employed?

Mr. DEAN. Police Department.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Dallas Police Department?

Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long have you been with the Dallas Police Department?

Mr. DEAN. 11 years.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And do you hold any particular rank in the department?

Mr. DEAN. I am a sergeant.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long have you been a sergeant?

Mr. DEAN. 6 years.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What section were you assigned to in the police department?

Mr. DEAN. Patrol division.

Mr. GRIFFIN. That was on November 22, 23, and 24?

Mr. DEAN. That's correct.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, it's my understanding that you were not on duty on either November 22 or 23?

Mr. DEAN. That's correct.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Are these your regular off duty days?

Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What time did you come to work on Sunday, November 24?

Mr. DEAN. At 7 o'clock.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Prior to the time that you came to work, had you heard anything about the proposed move of Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mr. DEAN. No, sir; well, before I came to work, no, sir; I hadn't.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Before you came to work did you know that Oswald was going to be moved that day?

Mr. DEAN. Just rumored that some time during the day that he would be moved.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How had you heard that?

Mr. DEAN. Well, rumors in around city hall.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Had you been around the city hall on the 23d?

Mr. DEAN. No, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Or the 22d?

Mr. DEAN. No, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where then did you hear these rumors?

Mr. DEAN. I had just come into town just about the time the President landed on Friday. I had been out to south Texas deer hunting, and that day, I, of course, listened to all the news about the assassination, and also the next day, on the 23d, and then on the 24th at 7 o'clock is when I reported for duty.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, you indicated to me, though, that you had heard rumors around the police station?

Mr. DEAN. This was on the 24th. They had said that sometime during the day that Oswald would be moved. Now, who they are would be in the captain's office, around in the captain's office and in my office.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Referring to that period before you came on duty, had you heard any rumors then?

Mr. DEAN. No, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. So when you arrived you didn't have any idea that Oswald was going to be moved that day?

Mr. DEAN. Repeat it?

Mr. GRIFFIN. When you arrived at 7 o'clock Sunday morning----

Mr. DEAN. Right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You didn't have any idea Oswald was going to be moved that day?

Mr. DEAN. No, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me ask you this: Did you drive down to work that day?

Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall where you parked your car?

Mr. DEAN. That being Sunday, I believe I parked in the 2100 block of Jackson Street.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And do you recall how you entered the police department building?

Mr. DEAN. On the Commerce Street side going to the basement. Not into the parking area where the incident occurred, but going into the police and courts building from Commerce Street.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When you entered at 7 o'clock--I know it's difficult to pick out what you saw at one time and what you saw at another time. Did you see any TV cables----

Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Strung through that entrance?

Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir; numerous television cables and cameras.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Try to think back as best you can and tell us, as you walked in from Commerce Street, you know, you come down the steps----

Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You have to open the door?

Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And that will take you into the hallway?

Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. That leads to the records room. Now, as you got into that area there where you open up the door and so forth, did you see any TV cables strung through that doorway?

Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir; I believe there was a lot of TV cable down at the end of the hall there, toward the jail office.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well now, talking now about right up at the----

Mr. DEAN. No, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did any TV cables come through that Commerce Street entrance?

Mr. DEAN. I don't recall.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, what did you do when you got inside?

Mr. DEAN. I went immediately to the basement, changed clothes into my uniform and then went to the second floor, which is patrol captain's office, where I report for duty.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who did you report to there?

Mr. DEAN. Captain Talbert.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And did you have a conversation with Talbert at that time?

Mr. DEAN. Nothing specific; no.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Talbert give you an assignment at that time?

Mr. DEAN. No, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Talbert talk to you in anyway about the movement of Oswald at that time?

Mr. DEAN. No, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you learn somewhere after you arrived at work that someone had made a telephone call in connection with the movement of Oswald, threatening Oswald's life?

Mr. DEAN. Yes; did I learn of a telephone call?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. DEAN. I heard Captain Frazier, I believe it was, talking to Captain Talbert, and in my presence, and several others. I don't remember which ones, sergeants and a lieutenant or so, that I believe it was Sheriff Decker called during the night and asked that Oswald be moved during the night sometime.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When did this conversation take place; how soon after you came to work?

Mr. DEAN. It was some time--probably it would have been a little before 7 o'clock, because we meet downstairs at 7 o'clock sharp.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I see.

Mr. DEAN. In the detail room.

Mr. GRIFFIN. So this would have been almost within a few minutes of the time that you had walked in?

Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, were Talbert and Frazier--and who else was present during the conversation?

Mr. DEAN. I believe Lieutenant Pierce was there, myself and Sergeant Putnam might have been there. Several other sergeants. See, this is the change time and all of his supervisors, Captain Frazier's and Captain Talbert's, the ones that are working that day, they will generally be in the office at that time.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Off the record.

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. GRIFFIN. Could you tell me where we were?

(The record was here read by the reporter.)

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember any other things that were said? Try to think about what these people said when this topic was brought up.

Mr. DEAN. Captain Frazier said something to the effect that he had called Captain Fritz when Sheriff Decker called to request the movement of Oswald, and Captain Fritz stated that he didn't think that Chief Curry wanted him moved during the night, that it was--he would be moved some time this day, that day, rather than in the night. It would be this day. That's where I got it that he was to be moved on the 24th.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, I take it that this was sort of changing of the guard at this point, and Frazier was going off duty and he was sort of passing on the word to Talbert?

Mr. DEAN. Right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did Talbert say in response to that information?

Mr. DEAN. I don't remember. The thing that I got, or impression that I got, was that they were just waiting for Chief Curry to say to move him, until they had proper authorization to move him, from our department rather than from the sheriff.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was Rio Pierce present at that time?

Mr. DEAN. I think that he was.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And it is my understanding of this situation that you had there at that time is Captain Talbert, Lieutenant Pierce and the sergeants that were all under them, kind of a general briefing?

Mr. DEAN. That's correct.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did Talbert then discuss this matter with you people who were on his shift?

Mr. DEAN. Not at this time. We went back downstairs to the basement to the whole detail. This is to assign the patrolmen out on their tour of duty, to brief them of the new orders, if there had been any, and generally to get the men out in the field in the squad cars. This happens at 7 o'clock.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you send all the men out that you normally would send out?

Mr. DEAN. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. At that time?

Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir; with some few that we would use, the ones of which I can't recall. I imagine it would have been equivalent to three or four men that we would have kept in the city hall itself.

Mr. GRIFFIN. At that time did you have any thought of how you would assemble the necessary men to handle the transfer?

Mr. DEAN. No, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, after you had this initial meeting with Talbert, what did you do?

Mr. DEAN. Now, you are referring to after the detail?

Mr. GRIFFIN. After you assigned these men, and what you called the general orders?

Mr. DEAN. We went back to the second floor, back to Captain Talbert's office, which is the general offices for the patrol division.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What happened up there?

Mr. DEAN. Well, I don't remember anything specific until about--I, myself, went to the third floor to familiarize myself with the happenings, about the news cameramen and just to get an idea of what was going on and who was to be present, such as that, because I had been off. This was my first day back since--in a week, in fact. I had been on a few days vacation to go hunting.

Mr. GRIFFIN. At the time you went up to the third floor, did you have any idea as to what your general responsibilities were going to be for the day?

Mr. DEAN. No, sir; not at that time.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I think I am misleading you. First of all, you have some general responsibility, standard responsibilities that you have every day?

Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What are those particular responsibilities?

Mr. DEAN. Well, I am assigned to a zone area that has a group of 6 squads that work for me, equivalent to 15 men.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What zone is that?

Mr. DEAN. No. 110. It's in the eastern portion of Dallas.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that the Love Field area?

Mr. DEAN. No, sir; this is the--Love Field area is north Dallas. I am in the eastern portion of Dallas.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. And do you normally handle most of your duties from right within the police station?

Mr. DEAN. No, sir: I have various paperwork to do in the office at times. Generally I am out in the car, answering calls with the squads, or when they need advice, supervision, well, I generally answer their calls.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now, when you met with Talbert the second time upon the second floor, did you have any idea at that time that your duties would be any different on Sunday than they were on any other date?

Mr. DEAN. I assumed that I would probably confine myself to the city hall.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you happen to make that assumption?

Mr. DEAN. Well, because of my seniority. It was just assumed that they would want me there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, so you went up to the third floor then?

Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And who did you talk to and who did you see up there on the third floor?

Mr. DEAN. No one in particular. I just went up to see what was going on on the third floor. This is the first time I had been to the third floor. There were numerous cameras there, lot of cables. Just as you get off the elevator there was a lot of cameras.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What time would you estimate that you were up on the third floor?

Mr. DEAN. Probably 8 o'clock.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you go up to the third floor again during the morning; that is between that time and the time that Oswald was shot, did you have occasion to go back to the third floor?

Mr. DEAN. I believe I did, but for no specific purpose.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, if you can separate out the different times that you might have been up there, I want to know as best you recall whether there were news people up there on the third floor when you went up this first time, around--what did you say, 8 o'clock?

Mr. DEAN. Yes. Were there news people up there?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see newspaper people up there at that time?

Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall whether the TV cameras were manned at that time?

Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall whether these people seemed to be operating the cameras, shooting footage or did they seem to be in any sort of operation?

Mr. DEAN. They did have a monitor, small monitor set that they had the cameras on. However, they weren't broadcasting at the time. They might have been taping. I don't know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see any other people that you thought were newsmen up there, other than those manning the cameras?

Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir. Pressmen. Newspaper people, none of which I can recall that I knew myself.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What's your best estimate of the number of news people that were up there at about 8 o'clock?

Mr. DEAN. Twenty-five, possibly.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did this create to you what appeared to be a crowded condition?

Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, how long did you remain up there on the third floor?

Mr. DEAN. Oh, maybe 10 or 15 minutes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And do you recall if you went into the homicide bureau?

Mr. DEAN. Sometime during that morning I did step into the homicide bureau. However, I don't know who I talked to. And then there wasn't any specific reason that I did go in there. I just stepped in. The hall was very crowded. It might have been just that I was close to the homicide office and I stepped in there to get out of the crowd, because it was the least congested. There were no newsmen or pressmen in there, no cameras.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you able to tell, when you were up there at about 8 o'clock, what the general impression seemed to be as to when Oswald would be moved?

Mr. DEAN. The impression I got, there was anticipation from the newsmen that--and the hopes of the newsmen, that he would probably be moved that day.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But as to how early in the day, did you get any idea of what they were thinking of?

Mr. DEAN. No, sir. This was at anytime. This was the impression I got, at anytime he could be moved. They were ready to start shooting, or go live television, I am sure, at anytime, at a moment's notice.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did they ask you any particular questions?

Mr. DEAN. None specific; no, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did they attempt to approach you or shout things at you?

Mr. DEAN. No, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember any other bureaus you went in on the third floor?

Mr. DEAN. That was all.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, where did you go from the third floor?

Mr. DEAN. Went back down to the second floor.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And who did you see down there?

Mr. DEAN. Captain Talbert, Lieutenant Pierce.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember any conversation you had with them?

Mr. DEAN. Well, general conversation that morning was when possibly Oswald might be moved. Of course, I was waiting for instructions as to what to do when he was moved. I received my first instructions about 9 o'clock.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who did you receive those instructions from?

Mr. DEAN. From Lieutenant Pierce.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And do you know who Lieutenant Pierce received his instructions from?

Mr. DEAN. No, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did Pierce tell you?

Mr. DEAN. His instructions were for me to take a group of men and--or whatever men I needed, and thoroughly search the garage portion of the basement, to vacate it and then thoroughly search it. I----

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you--go ahead.

Mr. DEAN. I took about 13 reserve officers that were waiting in the assembly room, which is on the ground floor, the basement floor, along with Sergeant Putnam, Officer L. E. Jez, and A. R. Brock, and these 13 reserves that were in the detail room at that time, names of which I don't know. They were commanded by Captain Arnett. I do know this. And Captain Arnett assisted in the search, too. We vacated the basement of all people.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Are you talking about just the garage area or the entire basement?

Mr. DEAN. The garage area. And I assigned Officer R. E. Vaughn to the entrance ramp, which is entering on Main Street, Officer R. C. Nelson to the doorway coming from the police and court building and into the basement, and Officer B. G. Patterson the Commerce Street ramp, which is the exit, and I assigned one reserve officer to the southern portion of the basement, to the stairways that lead into the subbasement or the machine room.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, the regular officers that you assigned were Vaughn, Nelson, and Patterson, is that right?

Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were any of those men members of your platoon?

Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir; all of them.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How did they happen to be in the building at that time?

Mr. DEAN. I believe they were the officers that we retained that morning to assist us for whatever might have to be done in the morning, or during the day.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did they normally have assignments in patrol cars some place?

Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir; all of them.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who made the decision to keep those men in?

Mr. DEAN. I would imagine Lieutenant Pierce. To retain them at city hall during the day?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. DEAN. I imagine Lieutenant Pierce did.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Can I ask you directly, you did not, if I understand correctly, you did not make that decision?

Mr. DEAN. To retain them at the city hall?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. DEAN. No, sir; they were there and I utilized them for this purpose.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, were there other people who were retained at city hall besides those three men in the platoon?

Mr. DEAN. There were other men that were called back in from patrol duty to supplement what men we had at the central headquarters.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But these were the only three men who actually stayed back and never went out to the field at all?

Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Any particular reason that you can think of why those three men should have been kept there?

Mr. DEAN. No, sir; other than just assignment, routine assignment. I mean it could have been someone else as well as it was them.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, you assigned reserve officers--somebody, rather----

Mr. DEAN. To the southern portion of the basement?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Why did you put a guard on that door, or in that area?

Mr. DEAN. For security reasons.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have any reason to think that it would be possible to get through from the subbasement?

Mr. DEAN. Well, I knew that there were doors going into the subbasement from--however, I checked them and they were locked, but still there was a possibility, since you did have doors there, or ingress from the street.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know where the ingress from the street to the subbasement is?

Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir; as you enter on Commerce Street, going down into the basement, there is a door on the southern side of the--just before you go into the main part of the basement, that leads down. It's the porters' quarters, that leads down to the porters' quarters.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is there any other entrance into that subbasement?

Mr. DEAN. The elevators in the new city hall is the only ones that you can get in, is the only place, other than the ramp--we had all places covered. In fact, I assigned----

Mr. GRIFFIN. No. I am talking about the subbasement now.

Mr. DEAN. The garage portion?

Mr. GRIFFIN. That's right.

Mr. DEAN. No, sir; there is no other place.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Other than that door that comes into Commerce Street?

Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir; well, there is a door that was locked, another door that's used as a--oh, I think they sometimes throw materials--it's not even an elevator. It appears to be an elevator door, if you open it up, it's a straight drop into the subbasement.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where is that?

Mr. DEAN. I had the maintenance man open this door for me. He did and I could see that you couldn't--or it would be hard for a man to climb up a straight wall to open these doors. You couldn't open them from the inside or the subbasement side of the door.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, do you have a clear recollection as to whether or not any TV or radio or other wires came through the subbasement door up to the basement area in the garage?

Mr. DEAN. There were none coming out. From the subbasement into the garage area?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. DEAN. There were not.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were there any TV or radio or other wires coming into the garage area other than through the ramps?

Mr. DEAN. No, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you give these people you stationed in the garage area, Nelson and the reserve officer and--who was it that you stationed--did you station somebody by the elevators at that time?

Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir; Brock.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Those three men, did you give them any specific instructions?

Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What were those instructions?

Mr. DEAN. That they were to let no one in other than--well, first that they were to let no one in until we had completely searched the basement, and then that we would notify them after we had completed the search, and then they were to let no one in except authorized pressmen, properly identified pressmen, newsmen, or policemen.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have some reason to think that those people might be coming through the entranceways that they were guarding?

Mr. DEAN. Did I have some reason to think this?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. DEAN. It was strictly security. I was doing exactly what my orders were, to keep all people out. As far as any reason other than strictly security; no.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What I am suggesting, really, is that you could have given them a blanket order, "Don't let anybody in there"?

Mr. DEAN. That's right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Any reason why you didn't give them that blanket order? Off the record.

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where were we?

(The record was here read by the reporter.)

Mr. DEAN. To just let no one in?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. DEAN. Well, just a moment. Let me--I knew that the pressmen--I am wondering where I--it was just generally assumed to me that the pressmen would be allowed to witness the movement of Oswald.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But from these doors, now, the men that were on the ramps, of course, you would expect an influxion of people down those ramps, but from those interior doors in the garage, I am wondering what expectation you could have that anybody would be coming through there? I am not asking this question to try to trip you up or anything like that, but I am just wondering if you thought about this? You might think of something that you had in mind that might shed some light on this.

Mr. DEAN. No, sir; the only thing, I was searching the basement and to do this I had to clear the basement to satisfy myself that there was no one in the basement, and after I was satisfied with this, then the press and the police officers could come back in the basement, if they were properly identified.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, when you instructed Nelson and Brock and the reserve officer, were Vaughn and Patterson also present?

Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Of course, they were guarding the ramps?

Mr. DEAN. Right. Patterson, Vaughn were guarding the ramps, and that was my instructions to them, to keep everyone out until we had completed the search. Then after we had completed the search, to let no one in other than properly identified pressmen or policemen, and to not to leave those assignments unless they were relieved by myself or Sergeant Putnam.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, can you give us some idea of how many cars there were in the garage at that time?

Mr. DEAN. Some, I would say 25 or 30.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were these cars eventually moved out at any time?

Mr. DEAN. No, sir; some few of them were district squad cars that had come in with prisoners, and then, of course, they left, but as a mass movement to move the cars out, we didn't.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who checked the stairway door in the garage that leads up into the municipal building?

Mr. DEAN. The stairway door?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. DEAN. I don't know of any door that leads up into the--the stairway?

Mr. GRIFFIN. There is a stairway----

Mr. DEAN. That goes down into the subbasement?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well now, over where the elevators are----

Mr. DEAN. Oh. Oh, yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You know what I am talking about?

Mr. DEAN. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who checked that door?

Mr. DEAN. Sergeant Putnam checked it once and I checked it once and it was locked.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know at the time you checked it that even though the door was locked from the outside, it could be opened from the inside?

Mr. DEAN. [No response.]

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me state this again. Even though the door would be locked from the garage side, that from the stairway side it would be unlocked; were you aware of that?

Mr. DEAN. I believe we asked the maintenance man about this, and I believe he locked it so as it couldn't be unlocked from either side unless they had a key. I believe Sergeant Putnam called this to the maintenance man's attention, and I recall being there at the time they were discussing it, and I think at that time the maintenance man locked the door so it couldn't be unlocked from either side other than with a key.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall the name of this maintenance man?

Mr. DEAN. No, sir; I don't know. I didn't know his name to start with. However, I did know he was the maintenance man, by sight.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When did you get ahold of this maintenance man?

Mr. DEAN. Sergeant Putnam, I believe, had gotten--or had thought about this and asked him, or he had gotten in touch with him some way.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was this at the same time you had the 13 men in the garage searching, or at some later time?

Mr. DEAN. This was during the search.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And do you know where this maintenance man was located----

Mr. DEAN. No, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When Putnam found him?

Mr. DEAN. I don't. I do know I sent for him one time, or had an officer to go page the maintenance man to meet me, to have him unlock this door in question, that I thought--or I wanted it opened so I could see in it, to see if it was a service elevator or what. I had never seen that door opened before.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you make any inquiries about the passenger elevators?

Mr. DEAN. Coming into the garage portion?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. DEAN. Yes; they were operating at the time. I think there were two colored boys that were operating the elevators, and we told them not to come down to the basement for any reason. And we posted Brock there at the elevators.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, so that we understand what we are talking about, my recollection is that there is another elevator that's a service elevator also?

Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir. This was the one that was operating, primarily, that morning.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I think we can help things out here somewhat. This is a diagram of the basement area, and I am going to mark this "Dallas, Tex., Sergeant Dean, March 24, 1964, Exhibit 5007."

Now, making reference, Sergeant, to this particular diagram here, at the time you searched the garage, it is my understanding that what's marked on here as elevators Nos. 1 and 2 were operable, that there were some colored boys in there, or somebody who was operating those elevators?

Mr. DEAN. No. I believe those were not in operation, Nos. 1 and 2. The service elevator was, I do know. There was the parking attendant, a colored boy, and he sits here [indicating].