Chapter X: Part 10

Mr. PHENIX. KRLD.

Mr. HUBERT. That’s a Dallas station?

Mr. PHENIX. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. How long have you been so employed?

Mr. PHENIX. Since the middle of October.

Mr. HUBERT. What was your occupation prior to that time?

Mr. PHENIX. Reporter for the magazine Texas Municipal League, an organization of Texas towns and city of the magazine--Austin.

Mr. HUBERT. Are you a college graduate?

Mr. PHENIX. No; doggone it--no. I lack three courses. I have been in college for a long time.

Mr. HUBERT. Where did you study?

Mr. PHENIX. Texas Tech and Texas University--journalism and advertising.

Mr. HUBERT. Were you on duty with KRLD on November 24, 1963?

Mr. PHENIX. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. What function were you performing on that day with reference to your occupation?

Mr. PHENIX. My assignment was to cover Oswald as they brought him out from the police department, cover him, and just to get film on it.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, you were to operate a film camera and you had nothing to do with the television part of it at all?

Mr. PHENIX. None at all.

Mr. HUBERT. Did KRLD have television machines down there?

Mr. PHENIX. Right--we had a live camera set up there.

Mr. HUBERT. But your operation was not in connection with that?

Mr. PHENIX. No--there are really two distinct operations--they are a production crew, the same crew that handles a TV show in the studio, and I don’t even know how to operate their cameras.

Mr. HUBERT. What you were operating was a hand camera, is that correct?

Mr. PHENIX. Well, it’s a little larger than a hand camera but generally it is operated on a battery pack.

Mr. HUBERT. Perhaps for the record you might, if you can, give the technical description of the camera you were using that day.

Mr. PHENIX. Well, it’s an Auricon, 16 mm. sound camera and it is equipped with a 400-foot magazine, operated--a hand camera is normally hand wound--this is power driven by a battery, and it had a microphone and it was braced on a unipod, a single pole.

Mr. HUBERT. It is held by the hand and balanced that way?

Mr. PHENIX. By the hand when it is on a unipod. Normally it is usually either on a tripod or a shoulder harness and it weighs about 40 pounds I imagine.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, on the 24th of November how were you operating it--on a tripod?

Mr. PHENIX. On a unipod--on a unipod.

Mr. HUBERT. By that, I take it it is a single stick, is it not?

Mr. PHENIX. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. It is adjustable for distance from the ground?

Mr. PHENIX. Yes, sir--I believe there are three adjustments you can make.

Mr. HUBERT. It serves to steady the camera?

Mr. PHENIX. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, Mr. Phenix, I have shown you two documents which I am now going to mark for identification as follows, to wit: The first one I am marking, “Dallas, Tex., April 16, 1964, as number 5328, Deposition of George R. Phenix,” and I am signing my name below that. That contains one page. It purports to be an interview of you on November 24, 1963, by FBI Agents Lee and Barrett [spelling] B-a-r-r-e-t-t.

I am marking the second document as follows:

“Dallas, Tex., April 16, 1964, as Exhibit 5329, Deposition of George R. Phenix,” and I am signing my name below that. That document also contains only one page and purports to be a report of an interview with FBI Agents Harding and Rawlings. Have you had an opportunity to read the exhibits, which have been identified as Exhibits 5328 and 5329?

Mr. PHENIX. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you consider that those exhibits represent a true and fair report of the interviews which they purport to cover?

Mr. PHENIX. Yes, sir. Now, the second one updates the first one. The second one is more correct.

Mr. HUBERT. That is to say, the one dated November 28, 1963, identified as Exhibit No. 5329, goes into more detail than the one dated November 24, which has been identified as Exhibit 5328?

Mr. PHENIX. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you perceive any conflicts between them?

Mr. PHENIX. No--mainly--I don’t know if you need this for your record or not. Mainly, there is just a correction in an impression I had. I was located around by the crew and in that first interview, I thought I would have been hit by Ruby since he was in front of me, as he stepped out of the crowd, but then we know--one says we know it wasn’t Ruby--that’s about it.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, could you more graphically show your position--I have asked you previously to study this FBI mockup of the jail office, showing also the Commerce and Main Street ramps, the ramp from the parking area into the street ramps, and I am going to ask you if you would show us, now, where you were when you first came into the area that this mockup shows, and I will explain the system that I will use.

If you will point to the place on the mockup, we will then agree as to what that point is on the chart and mark it so, and then if you change positions from one to another, we will so indicate, so that any person who reads your testimony with this chart before them can follow it intelligently.

Mr. PHENIX. All right.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, in order that the chart may be properly identified, I am marking it as follows: “Dallas, Tex., April 16, 1964, Exhibit No. 5330, Deposition of George R. Phenix.” I will sign my name below that. Now, Mr. Phenix, at what time did you first come down into the basement and into this area?

Mr. PHENIX. It was a little after 9 o’clock, according to that statement, it said 9:10--it was closer to 9 o’clock.

Mr. HUBERT. You remained in the basement area the entire time until the actual shooting?

Mr. PHENIX. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. I guess it is correct to state you didn’t stay in one particular spot all that time?

Mr. PHENIX. Oh, I unloaded the gear from the car in the area between the two stop signs at the level portion there where cars normally stop.

Mr. HUBERT. Will you point to that on here?

Mr. PHENIX. Right here [indicating].

Mr. HUBERT. I am marking on Exhibit 5330 the spot where Mr. Phenix has stated that he unloaded the gear with a number one in a circle there and drawing a line from that, and I am writing “Spot where Phenix first unloaded gear at about 9:10 a.m.” What was that gear?

Mr. PHENIX. The camera, the unipod, a microphone, and battery pack.

Mr. HUBERT. You unloaded it from a truck?

Mr. PHENIX. The Mobile News Unit--it is a station wagon we normally drive.

Mr. HUBERT. Have I marked the spot correctly?

Mr. PHENIX. Right, and then from there I think I milled around a little bit and said, “Hello,” to the newsmen I recognized from the day before on the third floor and all the available spots were taken over here at this corner which were really the best spots.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, when you say “over here at this corner,” I am going to put the number 2 with a circle under it and draw a line out and indicate that you have stated that the place that I marked number 2 was the best spot, but already taken.

Mr. PHENIX. By most of the photographers there.

Mr. HUBERT. I am writing in the words “Phenix says this number 2 spot was already taken by other news media”----

Mr. PHENIX. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. “When he arrived.” Is that a correct statement?

Mr. PHENIX. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, now you can go on?

Mr. PHENIX. Then, I picked a spot just inside this rail--I was standing on the curb--I was to the right of our live camera that was set up there.

Mr. HUBERT. Was that on the parking area side of the rail or the ramp side of the rail?

Mr. PHENIX. The ramp side--I was standing on the curb there, leaning against the rail, and the camera, part of the camera sticking out over the rail.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, this chart does not show the rail itself except by a marked line, but it does show two posts and I ask you if it isn’t fair to state that what you are talking about is this position that I have here?

Mr. PHENIX. Yes, that’s right, because I had a clear view down to the swinging doors.

Mr. HUBERT. Let’s put it this way: I’m going to mark a line from two points, one point being number three and the other point number four--that line being the space between the two main posts.

Mr. PHENIX. Okay.

Mr. HUBERT. Looking at the mockup, there is a rail between those two main posts, and that rail is equally divided into three parts, by two vertical posters, is that correct?

Mr. PHENIX. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. If we call one of the vertical posters point number five and the other one point number six, then as I understand your testimony you were on the ramp side rather than the parking area side of the rail?

Mr. PHENIX. Correct.

Mr. HUBERT. And you were approximately at the point by the post marked on this chart as point number six?

Mr. PHENIX. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. I am marking point number six as “position of Phenix at the time of shooting.”

Mr. PHENIX. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. I think you have testified that immediately to your left there was a TV camera belonging to the same station as your own?

Mr. PHENIX. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. I’m going to mark without any attempt to do it in scale by a square which I am marking “Square A” and drawing a line out to indicate position of KRLD TV camera.

Mr. PHENIX. You might say live camera.

Mr. HUBERT. Live camera--and that camera was just to your left and a bit back of you, because it was on the other side of the rail, right?

Mr. PHENIX. Yes; the camera itself was behind me, the lens stuck out.

Mr. HUBERT. Over the rail?

Mr. PHENIX. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. There was another live camera in that area too, wasn’t there?

Mr. PHENIX. Right--it was to the left of ours.

Mr. HUBERT. So, again without attempting to draw this to scale, I will draw a rectangular figure, marking it “B” and state that that was the position of the other TV camera.

Mr. PHENIX. I am not sure whose that was.

Mr. HUBERT. It was another live camera, but not a KRLD?

Mr. PHENIX. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, your testimony is that as to the live camera which we have marked by rectangle with a “B” in the middle of that rectangle, you know it was a live camera and it was not a KRLD camera, but you don’t know whose camera it was?

Mr. PHENIX. Right--this might be incidental--I either laid the camera down or had one of our production crew that was with the live camera hold it and I swung my mike over the overhead pipes in this area--it’s really not important, but that’s part of the milling around I was doing.

Mr. HUBERT. I gather what you wanted to do was to get your mike in a position to catch sound if it was possible to do so?

Mr. PHENIX. Yes; right.

Mr. HUBERT. So, from your position six on this Exhibit 5330, you slung, shall we say, or hung----

Mr. PHENIX. Hung.

Mr. HUBERT. Your wires with the live mike, the end of it, so that it would hang down, I suppose, just as you indicated--just roughly at the position we originally marked number 1?

Mr. PHENIX. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. Which is where you physically were?

Mr. PHENIX. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. So that now position No. 1 has two meanings--it is the position you first came to and the position where your mike was hanging.

Mr. PHENIX. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. Can you tell us something of the number of people to your right and in the ramp going towards Main Street?

Mr. PHENIX. It’s a little hard to say--that camera that I was using was such that the eyepiece is on the left and I normally keep it in a ready position on my shoulder so it blocks my vision to the right, but there were maybe 10 or 15 people milling around there--some were news commentators and some were radio men with tape recorders----

Mr. HUBERT. Some policemen?

Mr. PHENIX. Some policemen.

Mr. HUBERT. Would you judge there were 18 to 20 people along in there?

Mr. PHENIX. It could be.

Mr. HUBERT. By the way, how long were you in that position No. 6 prior to the time of the shooting?

Mr. PHENIX. Probably at least an hour--I just didn’t want to leave it, and we didn’t know at what exact time he was coming down.

Mr. HUBERT. What about the condition of the people and the numbers thereof to your left from position No. 6?

Mr. PHENIX. Well, there were many more--as we got ready to bring Oswald out, policemen lined this wall here and formed a line coming out of the swinging doors, and then the newsmen were back at position two mainly.

Mr. HUBERT. Suppose we mark a line and we will call that line--let’s say starting at No. 7 in a circle, and moving and turning towards Commerce Street to point 8, roughly.

Mr. PHENIX. Okay.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, that curving line, which is line 7 to 8 is where police were lined, is that correct?

Mr. PHENIX. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Were there police lined elsewhere?

Mr. PHENIX. I believe part of this line coming down the other side were policemen.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, if we mark a line now, calling it one point of the line nine, and the other one----

Mr. PHENIX. It went straight down this way [indicating].

Mr. HUBERT. Straight into you?

Mr. PHENIX. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Which side of you?

Mr. PHENIX. To my right--a little bit.

Mr. HUBERT. Then, we mark a line from 9 to 10, with point 10 being immediately to the right of point 6 where you were standing?

Mr. PHENIX. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Then, you say there were policemen along in that line too?

Mr. PHENIX. Yes; police and press.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, take it from there.

Mr. PHENIX. Well, from there I waited until--I believe it was a United Press International movie photographer, Isidore, or something, everybody called him Izzie--I don’t know his last name, came running down from the swinging doors, I think he was the one, and said, “He’s coming,” meaning Oswald, so we all got ready, and the camera has an eyepiece----

Mr. HUBERT. Your camera?

Mr. PHENIX. Right; that operates through a prism that looks directly through the lens, so I had to have my eyes stuck against the eyepiece in order to see through it. So, from then on, all I saw was Oswald coming down the hallway there, and I didn’t actually--I wasn’t aware of seeing Ruby step out of the crowd--I knew something had happened and the shot--at the shot somebody came roaring in from my left and almost knocked me down. The unipod was braced on the curb and it slipped down to the main level of the ramp and almost fell, and looking through the eyepiece and over the eyepiece, too, just shooting out of habit really, the camera was running all the time--I followed the action of the policeman wrestling with Ruby--it just happened that they moved to my right.

Mr. HUBERT. Your film, as a matter of fact, is that famous film that catches Ruby moving forward and the wrestling?

Mr. PHENIX. Right; I just saw it once and we were so busy, but I think it was the one where Ruby’s hat was in the corner of the opening frame and he steps out.

Mr. HUBERT. You have seen it since, haven’t you?

Mr. PHENIX. Oh, yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you know Ruby?

Mr. PHENIX. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Had you observed him in the crowd prior to these events?

Mr. PHENIX. I can’t remember it. I heard someone say in the crowd after they took Ruby and after Oswald left in the ambulance that it was Jack Ruby, and the name didn’t mean a thing to me.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you hear anybody running down the ramp just before the shooting, running down or possibly walking down?

Mr. PHENIX. No, I think if he had been running I would have heard him because the sound just echoes in that basement.

I saw some film, and I’m sure you’ve seen it too, some of the film that showed Ruby positioned down there, and he looks back where you catch almost a full shot of his face before Oswald comes down, and that anyway--it just looks like he was there for a while.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you hear Ruby say anything?

Mr. PHENIX. No; maybe in the excitement I heard him, but I don’t remember hearing this famous quotation about “Jack, you S. O. B.”

Mr. HUBERT. You didn’t hear anybody; hear anything, including Ruby--anything distinguishable that you now remember?

Mr. PHENIX. The only one I can remember is Bob Huffaker, who is the mike man for our live camera, saying over and over that “He’s been shot,” and he was calling him “Lee Harold Oswald.” I don’t know why--and then just in general--a few words.

Mr. HUBERT. You heard him saying, “He’s been shot, he’s been shot, he’s been shot,” a number of times?

Mr. PHENIX. Yes, and the policemen telling everybody to stand back.

Mr. HUBERT. What about the security precautions that were in existence, and would you comment about those as far as you observed them?

Mr. PHENIX. Well, as we drove in there were several officers down there, but nobody made any effort, you know, to talk to us as we drove in--we were in the car that had big KRLD letters on it and Wes Wise was known to some of them, but I wasn’t; Wes was driving the car.

Mr. HUBERT. There was a guard there that seemed to look you over?

Mr. PHENIX. Now, I don’t remember a guard on the Main Street side as we drove in.

Mr. HUBERT. Of course, that was at 9 o’clock?

Mr. PHENIX. Right, and later, I think there was a lieutenant from the Dallas Police Force just walking through the crowds, and I could tell he was looking me over, and stood there about 3 or 4 feet from me a little bit and never said anything.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know any of the people from WBAP-TV in Fort Worth?

Mr. PHENIX. I know some of their camera men--the reporter-camera men--is that Channel 5?

Mr. HUBERT. I don’t know. Do you know Tankersley, a Mr. Tankersley?

Mr. PHENIX. I think I know who he is.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know Mr. Timmons?

Mr. PHENIX. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know Jim Turner?

Mr. PHENIX. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you observe during the time you were standing at your position No. 6, a camera being loaded through the double doors or swinging doors at the jail corridor?

Mr. PHENIX. Yes; there was a live camera also--I don’t know whose that was and I don’t even know where the camera wound up--the final position.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you observe how many people were pushing it along?

Mr. PHENIX. I didn’t really pay any attention to it.

Mr. HUBERT. You don’t know even now whose camera it was?

Mr. PHENIX. It was either NBC or ABC--it was a local camera man but they were shooting for one of those two networks.

Mr. HUBERT. How long before the shooting was it that you saw this camera being rolled out from the jail corridor?

Mr. PHENIX. Not--it wasn’t too long before the shooting--maybe 20 minutes. We were getting a little edgy from sitting there so long, so it’s hard to estimate time, or, I was getting edgy.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you notice a police car come from the parking area up the ramp that goes from the parking area to the level of the basement area and turn right, pass you, and go on up the Main Street ramp?

Mr. PHENIX. You mean come out from here and go out this way? [Indicating on markup.]

Mr. HUBERT. Yes; that’s right.

Mr. PHENIX. I can’t remember, really. I may have and I may not--I just really can’t remember. I know there was--I believe there was a paddy wagon that came through earlier. It seems like I remember a car, though, driving out.

Mr. HUBERT. Mr. Phenix, have you ever been interviewed before by any member of the Commission’s Staff?

Mr. PHENIX. No.

Mr. HUBERT. And actually, you were not interviewed by me before this deposition began?

Mr. PHENIX. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Is it fair to state that anyone reading the two reports or statements that you have given, identified as Exhibits 5328 and 5329, and following your deposition today, with the chart that has been identified as Exhibit 5330, would have the whole story, as far as you know anything about it?

Mr. PHENIX. Yes; but I would like to say that I believe it is in Exhibit 5329 that I said that no other newsmen were asked for their identification.

Mr. HUBERT. All right.

Mr. PHENIX. Now, that’s just as far as I know--I didn’t actually see--I couldn’t say that absolutely no one was asked.

Mr. HUBERT. All right--that’s all right--you are telling me that is a possibility?

Mr. PHENIX. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. All you can say is what you observed?

Mr. PHENIX. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. And from your observation, you didn’t see anybody else being asked?

Mr. PHENIX. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. Is there anything else you would like to say about this?

Mr. PHENIX. No; that’s all.

Mr. HUBERT. Thank you very much. We appreciate your coming up here.

Mr. PHENIX. All right.

TESTIMONY OF JIMMY TURNER

The testimony of Jimmy Turner was taken at 9:45 a.m., on March 25, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr., assistant counsel of the President’s Commission.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, this is the deposition of Mr. James Turner.

Mr. TURNER. Jimmy Turner.

Mr. HUBERT. Jimmy Turner. Fort Worth, Tex. Mr. Turner, my name is Leon D. Hubert, I am a member of the advisory staff of the General Counsel of the President’s Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy. Under the provisions of the President’s Executive Order No. 11130, dated November 29, 1963, the Joint Resolution of Congress No. 137 and rules of civil procedure adopted by the Commission in conference with the Executive order and the joint resolution, I have been authorized to take a sworn deposition from you, Mr. Turner.

I state to you that the general nature of the Commission’s inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate and report upon the facts relating to the assassination of President Kennedy and to the subsequent violent death of Lee Harvey Oswald. In particular to you, Mr. Turner, the nature of the inquiry today is to determine what perhaps you know about the death of Oswald and any other pertinent facts you may know about the general inquiry. Now, I think you have appeared here today as the result of the receipt of a letter from Mr. Rankin.

Mr. TURNER. That’s right, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. When did you get that letter?

Mr. TURNER. It arrived last Monday, which was the 22d of March.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, under the rules of the Commission, you are entitled to a 3-day notice prior to the taking of this deposition. That probably dates from the day the letter was sent, which would be over 3 days, but just to be certain, the rules also provide that you can waive the 3 days on this if you want to. Are you willing to testify now, or do you want to wait until the 3 days have passed?

Mr. TURNER. Well, I might as well, now that I am here.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, you do waive the 3-day notice?

Mr. TURNER. I certainly do.

Mr. HUBERT. Then will you stand and raise your right hand and be sworn. Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. TURNER. I do.

Mr. HUBERT. Will you please state your name?

Mr. TURNER. Jimmy Turner.

Mr. HUBERT. The name “Jimmy,” is your correct name? It is not “James”?

Mr. TURNER. That’s right, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Where do you reside?

Mr. TURNER. 3637 Norma Street in Fort Worth, Tex.

Mr. HUBERT. What is your age, please?

Mr. TURNER. I am 38, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. What is your employment?

Mr. TURNER. I am TV director at WBAP-TV at Fort Worth.

Mr. HUBERT. How long have you been so employed?

Mr. TURNER. Twelve and a half years.

Mr. HUBERT. Were you assigned to the visit of the President to Dallas, and to the subsequent events?

Mr. TURNER. I was assigned after the assassination to NBC. I arrived over here approximately 1:15 the day of the assassination, which was November 22, and I remained over here until--through the following Wednesday.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, did you have access during that period to the jail building on Harwood, between Commerce and Main Street?

Mr. TURNER. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Was a particular sort of pass or identification given to you?

Mr. TURNER. No; it was not a pass given to us. No identification was ever required. The identification I used was a press card from a Sheraton Hotel, and I was never checked about the authenticity of it or anything.

Mr. HUBERT. But you were asked, in any case, to show that press pass that you have just described?

Mr. TURNER. Yes; we were. We were wearing it on our coat.

Mr. HUBERT. Would you describe that again?

Mr. TURNER. It was a press pass that the Sheraton Dallas Hotel had when they opened the new hotel here in Dallas. It had “Press” on it, the seal of the Sheraton Hotel and my name after it. It was very vague but the only thing we had at the time.

Mr. HUBERT. Were you ever accosted by anyone with respect to checking as to whether you----

Mr. TURNER. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Were connected with news media?

Mr. TURNER. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. You felt that simply wearing this on your coat with the word, “Press,” was sufficient to get around as you wanted to?

Mr. TURNER. Correct.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you see them checking any other people?

Mr. TURNER. To my knowledge, up until the following morning after the shooting of Oswald, there was no checking of passes that we ran into. Now, there was a checking after the shooting when we left the building, but I left the building with the pass, and came back in the building with the pass.

Mr. HUBERT. I am sure that during the 48 hours, approximately, between the President’s death and the shooting of Oswald, that you must have had occasion to go in and out of that building a number of times.

Mr. TURNER. I used it at Parkland Hospital. I used it at the city hall also without being stopped, or asked what kind of pass it was.

Mr. HUBERT. Prior to November 24, did you know that man now known as Jack Ruby?

Mr. TURNER. No; I didn’t, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. You had never seen him before?

Mr. TURNER. I had never seen him.

Mr. HUBERT. Had you ever heard of him?

Mr. TURNER. I had never heard of him.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, of course, since November 24, you have heard of Jack Ruby. You have seen his picture, I take it?

Mr. TURNER. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Have you ever seen him in person?

Mr. TURNER. Yes, sir; I saw him at the trial. At various times when they took him in the courtroom, except the morning of the shooting I saw him.

Mr. HUBERT. You saw him then, too? What I wanted to get at was whether you ever saw the man now known as Jack Ruby, in the police building prior to the time that you saw him immediately before the shooting?

Mr. TURNER. To my knowledge, I had never seen him until then.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you have occasion to go to the assembly on the night of Friday, November 22, at which time Oswald was brought into the assembly room, or lineup room, I think it is in the police building, and as Oswald was shown, I think, by the district attorney to the various reporters who were assembled there?

Mr. TURNER. No, sir; we didn’t arrive over until 1 a.m., Saturday morning prior to the shooting, so we did not have access to the lineup room that night.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, on the morning of the 24th, would you tell us what your activities were?

Mr. TURNER. Well, we--I am not sure on the exact time we arrived. I think it was around 7:30, from Fort Worth. We set up our cameras down in the basement. We had one on the third floor and one camera on the truck, on the outside exit way from the jail. The driveway on the Commerce Street side of the jail. We set our cameras up right across from the door in the hallway where they bring the prisoners out to transfer them, or Oswald out, which--and that little hallway is very narrow. Do you have a plan there?

Mr. HUBERT. Just a moment.

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. HUBERT. I am marking a document as follows to wit: “Dallas, Tex., March 25, 1954. Exhibit 5080, Deposition of Jimmy Turner,” and signing it with my name and asking Mr. Turner to sign his name below that. Now, Mr. Turner, using the chart which we have marked now as Exhibit 5080, would you, sir, tell us of your activities on the morning of November 24, using a sequence of numbers placed in a circle as to each stopping point, or object that you testify about.

Mr. TURNER. All right. Now, getting back, we had first placed the camera in “1”, where I will mark “1” on this.

Mr. HUBERT. In the circle.

Mr. TURNER. In a circle. Now, this is a camera position. Can I make it a box? We’ll keep the camera as a box and the circles as people.

Mr. HUBERT. That’s correct, but in each case put a numeral.

Mr. TURNER. Numeral.

Mr. HUBERT. In the circle, or box, and use the numerals in sequence.

Mr. TURNER. “No. 1,” would be our camera in our original position before Chief Curry came down and talked to us about not having it in that position. We had----

Mr. HUBERT. What time was that?

Mr. TURNER. Oh, it was approximately 9 to 10, that’s all I can say. I have no recollection of the time. All right, and in position No. “1,” we had stationed our camera. Chief Curry came out in a period of 9 to 10 and said, “Boys, you can’t leave the camera there. It’s going to be in the way when they bring him out the door. Now, I want all you boys to get a clean shot of it, so, I will get the cars moved out across the railing.” So, we’ll number the rail “2.”

Mr. HUBERT. Yes. Put that in the circles, too.

Mr. TURNER. All right. No. “2” position here [indicating]. “We’ll move the cars out from that location and you can set your cameras there, and I will assure you that you will have a clean shot of the whole thing,” meaning that we would have a good angle on him coming out of the jail, and everything, so, we immediately rerun our camera cables across the driveway up above, hung them up in the air conditioning, which is position “3,” across--can I keep this “3” all the way through?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Mr. TURNER. And, sir, we ran our camera cables back along the route of No. “3.”

Mr. HUBERT. Let me interrupt you for a moment. Prior to this move, your camera cables came down on the Harwood Street side of the ramp leading to the Commerce Street----

Mr. TURNER. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. Right?

Mr. TURNER. In other words--I do not recognize this line here [indicating], this line--this ramp--oh, this is the building. Oh, this is the building overhang. Now, I know what that is. This is the complete building that covers it.

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Mr. TURNER. All right.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, when you phoned that your cameras would have to be across the ramp, you ran into the problem of your cables?

Mr. TURNER. That’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. And, as I understanding your testimony you solved the problem by placing your cables on the Harwood Street side of that ramp leading to the Commerce Street up until the point “3” that you marked, after you--after which you strung them over----

Mr. TURNER. It may have been back in here [indicating]. I don’t think they came completely to this point.

Mr. HUBERT. In any case, you strung them over----

Mr. TURNER. Over the drive.

Mr. HUBERT. Over this drive so that automobiles passing wouldn’t pass over the cables?

Mr. TURNER. That’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. Then you dropped them down the opposite side from where they had been?

Mr. TURNER. No; we stayed up in the ceiling with them. That’s right. We had to stay up in the ceiling because any cars running over the cables--running over them knocked them out.

Mr. HUBERT. So, you strung them along the roof and so forth?

Mr. TURNER. That’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, now, where did that camera ultimately come to rest?

Mr. TURNER. From position “1” here, which is marked “1” on this. We moved it to--from--I am now marking “4,” in a box and that is our position that we moved it to from where we had our position at one time.

Mr. HUBERT. All right. Now, you were--that camera was left, and remained left----

Mr. TURNER. That’s right, sir, it remained left. Slang [phonetic], the director, took it. We had two other cameras working.

Mr. HUBERT. Where were they?

Mr. TURNER. One was up on the third floor of the city jail, around the hallway elevator shaft, and another camera was on top of a remote truck which was parked on Commerce Street on top the remote truck, to pick up when they made the exit with Oswald. We were trying to think ahead.

Mr. HUBERT. You were told then that there would be an exit----

Mr. TURNER. No; they didn’t--they didn’t say where the exit would be. We never knew that. We were just guessing at that point.

Mr. HUBERT. All right.

Mr. TURNER. We were never told that they were coming out the Commerce Street entrance. We just assumed, since it was the entrance to the jail, he would come out that way, so, we positioned the camera on top of the remote truck to pick up if he did come out that way.

Mr. HUBERT. Why didn’t you make your preparation for an exit from the Main Street ramp?

Mr. TURNER. We had only three cameras, and from all--the way that all the cars had been coming out of the jail, they had been coming out the Commerce Street exit. We hadn’t given any idea that they would reverse and go out through the Main Street.

Mr. HUBERT. Is it normally that Main Street is the entrance and Commerce is the exit?

Mr. TURNER. That’s right, so that gave us our idea that he would be brought out that way, and we would get a shot of him leaving.

Mr. HUBERT. All right. You might do this for us now using that numeral system. Place in boxes the other cameras, TV cameras of other radio stations, if you know where they were.

Mr. TURNER. All right. Then “5” will become a camera for CBS.

Mr. HUBERT. What local station?

Mr. TURNER. KRLD. And they were in position, too, along this rail with us. I think at first they were up here with us. This is very vague. They were hanging the camera up on the other side, which is position--well, I won’t position that one.

Mr. HUBERT. But they ultimately had to move down where you were? They were on your right?

Mr. TURNER. They were on our right.

Mr. HUBERT. Were there any other cameras?

Mr. TURNER. There was only two live television cameras in the basement at that time.

Mr. HUBERT. All right. Now, go ahead.

Mr. TURNER. Approximately 10 minutes--very vague on time--when the activity had been completed on the third floor of the jail, we broke a No. “2” camera down, which I will number “6,” entering the door. It came down the elevator. It was completely on the tripod.

Mr. HUBERT. It came down over here? Not the jail elevator?

Mr. TURNER. Not the jail elevator, we never had access to that room, the jail office here. It came down, and as it was entering the two double doors I left my camera in position, which is box “4,” it came over the rails. Let me number this up too. “6” would be our camera coming from the third floor. I immediately left my camera position when I saw them entering, to help get the camera down, and relieve one of the boys which could--which he could go up and get the camera cables to connect his camera up to make it live.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, when that camera became--when that camera began to come through the swinging door in the jail corridor, how many men were pushing it?

Mr. TURNER. Two men.

Mr. HUBERT. Who were they?

Mr. TURNER. Dave Timmons and John Tankersley.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you have to go over and assist them?

Mr. TURNER. After they had come from the door, I ran off my--ran off from my position of “4,” to position “6,” after they came to the door, and helped them to move the camera to where we are putting----

Mr. HUBERT. Before you do that----

Mr. TURNER. Okay.

Mr. HUBERT. Where were you in relation to Tankersley and Timmons?

Mr. TURNER. You mean in pushing the camera?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Mr. TURNER. I came, as you look toward the camera, I came up to the left side of it.

Mr. HUBERT. Who was in the middle? You were on one end?

Mr. TURNER. I’m not sure. I think Mr. Tankersley was.

Mr. HUBERT. And then Timmons?

Mr. TURNER. Timmons was on the other side. Usually the cameraman who is doing the camera work has hold of the center of the camera and whoever helps him will help on the side of the dolly.

Mr. HUBERT. So, you are the third man then on that camera?

Mr. TURNER. That’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. All right. Now, go ahead.

Mr. TURNER. All right. We moved from position No. “6” here, which I have labeled “6”, down to where I have now labeled “7”.

Mr. HUBERT. You are making a box there?

Mr. TURNER. Box. Right. Box for “7”.

Mr. HUBERT. Did that camera ever get into operation?

Mr. TURNER. No, it never did, sir; because by the time we got it to “7”, they had completely blocked the doors. I think someone said that it was--they were bringing him down and that we couldn’t leave it out there at that point or something. This is very vague.

Mr. HUBERT. But, in any case, the thing never got in operation?

Mr. TURNER. Never.

Mr. HUBERT. The second camera never got in operation?

Mr. TURNER. That’s right. The second camera hadn’t gotten into operation. I then--when I found out they couldn’t go back I returned to my position, which is on box “4”, and Mr. Tom Pettit of NBC was at circle number “7”, which was our newsman from NBC. He was hollering to me, “Tell them in New York to give it to me.”

Mr. HUBERT. That is to say that you would go live on the national?

Mr. TURNER. That’s right. We’d go live on the national network. So, I was talking on the direct line to him. The police car left out sometime in that excitement, going up the exit the wrong way. I mean the entrance the wrong way.

Mr. HUBERT. Going up towards Main Street?

Mr. TURNER. That’s right, which was different from the one, because we had always seen them come down it, and that was the first time we noticed them going out of it.

Mr. HUBERT. Did that car have any difficulty going up?

Mr. TURNER. Come to think of it, I think he did. I remember a lot of wheels spinning or something.

Mr. HUBERT. Were there many people there?

Mr. TURNER. There was quite a few. The reporters had come in at that point, somewhere along in that point, and there was getting to be a group of people.

Mr. HUBERT. Anyway, what you are saying is, that the movement of that car attracted your attention, is that correct?

Mr. TURNER. There was some brakes squealing or tires spinning at that time.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you follow with your eyes?

Mr. TURNER. I followed him as far as I could, now, there was some more commotion started a little before that of them bringing a truck in, backing an armored truck in from the exit side of it, which they were having a difficult job of getting this truck in. Now, this all happened--I can’t tell you the exact time, because it is all vague in my mind.

Mr. HUBERT. Let’s go back to the police car going up the Main Street ramp towards Main Street, did you follow it with your eyes?

Mr. TURNER. I followed it not only to about a point to where the drive had started up, because it was impossible----

Mr. HUBERT. To the point where the ramp starts to go up?

Mr. TURNER. Uphill, the slope up, which was this column here had sort of blocked our view from----

Mr. HUBERT. Mark the column with a number.

Mr. TURNER. That is number “9”.

Mr. HUBERT. With a circle.

Mr. TURNER. And, I was standing up at the front of point “4”, on the left side of the camera, which was right next to the column. Jack Beers from the Dallas Morning News, who took the picture before he was shot--not the picture after he shot him, was immediately--I was touching him with my left arm, and I had mentioned to Jack, I said, “Jack, when I swing around for them to load him into the truck up there, well, I’ll hit you on the knee, if--and would you get out of the way?”

And Jack said, “Yes.” So--this all took place so quick from now on. And then after I got through talking with Jack, I was--Tom was trying to attract my attention. I happened to glance up and this was at the same time the car drove out of the--I’m not sure. I couldn’t--that right down where the ramp it hit--the----

Mr. HUBERT. Level part?

Mr. TURNER. Level part. I saw Mr. Ruby coming in.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, had you ever seen him before?

Mr. TURNER. No, sir; I certainly hadn’t. Let me mark “10” as the point where I actually saw Mr. Ruby.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, in order to get it right, would you look at the mockup first, and then place it.

Mr. TURNER. I was right here [indicating], and he was somewhere in this locality when--it is beyond the second column.

Mr. HUBERT. Will you mark a line, and mark it “A” and “B” straight across at the beginning on the right?

Mr. TURNER. All right.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, you have marked a line, having compared it with the mockup, and you have marked it “A-B”.

Mr. TURNER. That is the beginning of the----

Mr. HUBERT. Of the rise?

Mr. TURNER. That’s right. I might be a little off there.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, you say you saw Jack Ruby. You had not known him to be Jack Ruby at that time?

Mr. TURNER. No; what set him off from other men was the hat he was wearing.

Mr. HUBERT. What sort of hat was it?

Mr. TURNER. I don’t know the technical name. Could you help me out? It was a felt hat, had a pretty large brim on it, and it was a--round on top, which you seldom see.

Mr. HUBERT. Snap brim?

Mr. TURNER. No; it wasn’t snap brim. It was just a wide brim, and like you say, I didn’t go that far.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know what color it was?

Mr. TURNER. It seemed to be grey.

Mr. HUBERT. Could you describe any other clothing?

Mr. TURNER. Yes; he was, to my knowledge he was dressed in an overcoat, or long--it could have been a suit coat, but I didn’t notice.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you have a fair look at his face?

Mr. TURNER. At an angle that I do not recognize him now. He seemed to be much heavier then than when I saw him in the Ruby trial.

Mr. HUBERT. Will you mark the position where you saw this man, marking it with the next number?

Mr. TURNER. All right. Let’s see. “10.”

Mr. HUBERT. Do you think that that man that you saw at position “10”, was Jack Ruby?

Mr. TURNER. I certainly do.

Mr. HUBERT. He was coming down the Main Street ramp at that time?

Mr. TURNER. That’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. He was moving?

Mr. TURNER. He was moving at that time but this man looks like Ruby, but he seemed to be heavier than I see him now. I don’t know whether it is an allusion, being in a dark place----

Mr. HUBERT. Did you see a man come out from the crowd and shoot Oswald?

Mr. TURNER. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Was that man the same man that you have----

Mr. TURNER. It was this same man.

Mr. HUBERT. That you have marked as “10”?

Mr. TURNER. As “10”. It was the same man, and came out and shot him from “10”.

Mr. HUBERT. So, that if it were Jack Ruby who shot Oswald, it was Jack Ruby at place number “10”?

Mr. TURNER. That’s right. Right. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. How long before the shooting was it that you saw a man in position number “10” there in a circle on the ramp?

Mr. TURNER. It was not more than 15 to 30 seconds. It was----

Mr. HUBERT. Did you keep your eye on the man, this man?

Mr. TURNER. No; I had just glanced up there, and I had come back--my eye on our reporter, Tom Pettit, and also the door, which is behind Tom Pettit, which I will mark right now as “11”, where Oswald made his exit.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, when was the next time you saw the man whom you have previously identified as number “10” and at what position was he then?

Mr. TURNER. The next time I saw him he walked up to Position “12”, which was almost in line with our man, Pettit, which is number “8”, here.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, you saw him then?

Mr. TURNER. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Was he at the front row of those people?

Mr. TURNER. Let me mark two more positions here, sir. A policeman was over here to his right, I think, which we’ll mark, “13”, and then there was a reporter, or a man dressed in a suit, I’ll call him the reporter at “14”.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, and my point is, that when you next saw the man who is now identified as Jack Ruby, and therefore I shall refer to him as Jack Ruby from now on out, he was at a position marked as number “12”?

Mr. TURNER. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. Was he standing still there, or moving?

Mr. TURNER. There was only a matter of 4 seconds, or 5 seconds, when he arrived there that--until Oswald reached the point where he was assassinated.

Mr. HUBERT. You saw Ruby arrive at the front?

Mr. TURNER. That’s right. He walked up to--see, this is all in line, from our camera position to our--there were--they were just a little back of the side light from our camera to our newscaster----

Mr. HUBERT. That’s number “8”?

Mr. TURNER. That’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. But you are willing to say that he was standing at the front row of the group of people congregated there for possibly 5 seconds before he moved forward to shoot Oswald?

Mr. TURNER. That’s right, that’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. And you judge that the time that you saw him standing still, 5 seconds before this shooting of Oswald, was approximately 15 to 20 seconds after you first saw him in that position “10”?

Mr. TURNER. I am vague about that time. Ten seconds or 20 seconds. I am very vague. I mean, but I know he was only there a short time, because I saw--we were on guard to try to move the newsmen out of our way, push them out of the way in front of the camera, and you kind of thrash around at the movement of them to keep on your shot, and that is how I come to notice another man up there. These three men are the only ones that I remember on that side except our man Pettit. There could have been more. There was some CBS cameramen over in this locality, but they had already been there, and that wasn’t in my mind at all, the ones that were actually stationed there. It was the movement of people at that time that made you look at it.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, let’s get a little bit more about this period for Jack Ruby to move from the position you have marked “10”, to the position you have marked “12”, when he was standing in the front line. Did he have to go through any great mass of people?

Mr. TURNER. No, not to my knowledge, because I didn’t see a great number of men up in there.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he have to push, or shoulder his way up there?

Mr. TURNER. No.

Mr. HUBERT. He could just walk up and get into that position?

Mr. TURNER. That’s right. There was some more men out there in this area, but I can’t connect it at this point.

Mr. HUBERT. What I want to get at, from what you tell me the group was not such that he would have to bulldoze his way through?

Mr. TURNER. No; he just flat walked up.

Mr. HUBERT. Just once, again for the record. There can be no doubt in your mind but the man now identified as Jack Ruby is the man you saw at position “10”?

Mr. TURNER. Correct.

Mr. HUBERT. All right; now, during our interview, immediately preceding the commencement of this deposition you mentioned another person that you had seen around the court building on several occasions, and I should like now--in other words, tell what you know about this person when you first saw him, now, at the numerous occasions on which you saw him until the last time that you saw him?

Mr. TURNER. All right. All right. We arrived from Fort Bliss at approximately 1 a.m. Saturday, the 23d of November, from Fort Worth, to set up our mobile unit inside the jail for a coverage of the assassination of the President, and when we arrived there we--there was this man that resembled John Carradine of the movies quite a lot. He was very thin faced, around 40 to 50, carrying a portfolio, and another little bag with him. Looked like a shaving kit bag, or something of that effect. He--as soon as we got there, it was chilly, and we went inside the open doors on the Commerce Street side, and he was standing inside, and he immediately started talking to us about various things which we passed off as just an average person talking to you, finding out what you were doing and everything, and he talked to us about 15 or 20 minutes. He did mention in his conversation that he had been a school teacher prior to that, about 16 months before.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, did he have a press badge on?

Mr. TURNER. No, he had no badge on. He was wearing a light trenchcoat or topcoat.

Mr. HUBERT. What height was he?

Mr. TURNER. He was approximately 5 feet 8 inches.

Mr. HUBERT. What would you guess his weight to be?

Mr. TURNER. Oh, only around 130 to 140 pounds. Very light in weight; very skinny.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever see the clothing he had under the trenchcoat?

Mr. TURNER. No; as far as I know, I never saw him without the trenchcoat on, the whole time.

Mr. HUBERT. All right; go ahead.