Chapter XXI: Part 21

Mr. SMITH. That’s correct.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you communicate your association between the mug shot of Jack Ruby and the man you had seen, to Mr. Warren Richey?

Mr. SMITH. Not at this time. Several days later we discussed it, and we seemed to be of the same opinion at that time.

Mr. HUBERT. You have never seen Ruby in person since?

Mr. SMITH. No, sir. Let me say this. The person that I am talking about is, I hate to say, dirty, an unkempt person that possibly could have slept with his clothes on, you see. He would be the opposite of what we see in these photographs of a well-dressed, natty person with stylish clothes. I am talking about the opposite type of person from that.

Mr. HUBERT. Now let me ask you this. Aside from your association of the man on the street and the mug shot of Ruby, have you in your mind compared your recollection of the man on the street with other photographs that you have seen of Ruby?

Mr. SMITH. No. I have never seen a photograph of Ruby that gives me that same picture; you know what I mean.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, the answer is really that you have made the comparison, but that you cannot feel as sure that the man on the street was the Jack Ruby that you saw in subsequent pictures?

Mr. SMITH. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. At least as much as you feel that the man on the street was the Jack Ruby you saw in the mug shot?

Mr. SMITH. Right. Now I am drawing a comparison between the man in the window and the mug shot. Those two struck me as being the same. The pictures that I saw in film are not as familiar to me, you know. That is hard to explain. I don’t guess it makes sense, does it?

Mr. HUBERT. Would you venture to say that the man on the street whose face came within 3 feet of yours and the man in the mug shot were, beyond any reasonable doubt, the same person?

Mr. SMITH. The only reason that I would have any doubt was this thing of the hat. Now I couldn’t see his hairline and I couldn’t see the complete face. With that thing in mind, I would not say that positively is the same man; I can’t say that.

Mr. HUBERT. But you did see the complete face when you were within 3 feet of him?

Mr. SMITH. Yes. He had the hat on.

Mr. HUBERT. And the mug shot did not, I take it?

Mr. SMITH. That is true.

Mr. HUBERT. With that reservation, you would have no doubt it is the same person?

Mr. SMITH. That is true.

Mr. HUBERT. Mr. Smith, I have in my hand a copy of a report of an interview of you dated December 4, 1963, made by FBI Agents Haley and Madland which I have marked for identification as follows: “Fort Worth, Tex., April 15, 1964, Exhibit 5317, deposition of John A. Smith,” and I signed my name below it. I would like you to read this, and after, I will ask you some questions about it.

(Mr. Smith reads report.)

Mr. SMITH. This thing doesn’t refer to him asking the question twice, which I believe I mentioned before, but essentially that is true.

Mr. HUBERT. At the time that you were interviewed by Mr. Haley and Mr. Madland, were there other people present?

Mr. SMITH. Let’s see; Mr. Haley, I believe, was the one that came over by himself. Then another--you see, I have been contacted three or four times, and I am not the best on names. We were contacted by two people at one time, and I believe they were from the city police department. I am not sure. I can’t even remember when I met Mr. Davis. He was on one of those.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall an interview that was had by FBI agents in the studio at which Richey and Walker were present?

Mr. SMITH. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, addressing yourself to that interview, was it conducted individually or as a group?

Mr. SMITH. When I first got there, he was talking to one of the others.

Mr. HUBERT. He, or were there two people?

Mr. SMITH. Just one. There was one person conducting the interview, and he was talking to--I am not sure--he was, I believe, talking to Jimmy Turner, and I stayed there for several minutes. And this other interview was concluded. Then I was interviewed separately, alone. Then Walker, I believe, came in, and he talked to both of us for several minutes. Then we went out to the garage where the truck is parked and he looked at the physical layout of the truck.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, did you ever have an individual interview with Haley and Madland, the FBI men?

Mr. SMITH. Yes; I had an interview with one FBI man, individually.

Mr. HUBERT. On the same day as the general?

Mr. SMITH. No. This was prior to this day I am talking about, and I believe that first man was Mr. Haley. I believe he was the first one there, and I am not sure about the name. But the first FBI man that contacted me--us, talked to us individually. At least he talked to me individually.

Mr. HUBERT. Have you ever been interviewed by any member of the President’s Commission staff prior to this time?

Mr. SMITH. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Have you anything else you want to add?

Mr. SMITH. No, sir; except to say that I hope that we make sense. When all this happened, we weren’t paying any attention to time, faces, or anything else. And I do hope that what we do kind of makes sense to you. I am afraid it doesn’t.

Mr. HUBERT. It does to me. Thank you very much, indeed.

Mr. SMITH. This whole thing has been kind of a horrible experience, hasn’t it?

Mr. HUBERT. Glad you came over.

Mr. SMITH. If we can help in any way, just call us.

TESTIMONY OF JESSE M. STRONG

The testimony of Jesse M. Strong was taken at 12:35 p.m., on March 31, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr., assistant counsel of the President’s Commission.

Mr. HUBERT. This is the deposition of J. M. Strong [spelling] S-t-r-o-n-g.

Mr. Strong, my name is Leon Hubert. I’m a member of the advisory staff of the General Counsel of the President’s Commission. Under the provisions of Executive Order 11130, dated November 29, 1963, the Joint Resolution of Congress No. 137, and rules of procedure adopted by the Commission in conformance with that Executive order, I have been authorized to take a sworn deposition from you. I state to you that the general nature of the Commission’s inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate, and report upon the facts relating to the assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of Lee Harvey Oswald.

In particular to you, Mr. Strong, the nature of our inquiry is to determine the facts you know about the death of Oswald and any other pertinent facts you may know about the general inquiry, particularly in the field of the Western Union telegram that is involved in this matter. Now, Mr. Strong, I understand that you have appeared here today by virtue of a request made by a letter addressed to you by J. Lee Rankin, General Counsel of the President’s Commission.

Mr. STRONG. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. I think that letter was received by you more than 3 days ago, is that correct?

Mr. STRONG. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, would you stand so that you may take the oath.

Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. STRONG. I do.

Mr. HUBERT. Would you state your name?

Mr. STRONG. Yes. Jesse M. Strong.

Mr. HUBERT. Your age?

Mr. STRONG. 62.

Mr. HUBERT. Your residence?

Mr. STRONG. 612 Edgewood Terrace, Fort Worth, Tex.

Mr. HUBERT. What is your occupation, sir?

Mr. STRONG. Relief night manager at Western Union.

Mr. HUBERT. How long have you been connected with Western Union Co. altogether?

Mr. STRONG. Since January 1923.

Mr. HUBERT. Near 40 years?

Mr. STRONG. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Over 40.

Mr. STRONG. Yes, sir; 41, to be exact.

Mr. HUBERT. Were you on duty with the Western Union Co. in Fort Worth on November 24, 1963?

Mr. STRONG. Yes; I was.

Mr. HUBERT. What office were you then located at?

Mr. STRONG. The Fort Worth office located at Main and Third, Fort Worth.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, I invite your attention to a document which, for purposes of identification, I am marking “Dallas, Tex., March 31, 1964. Exhibit 5121, Deposition of J. E. Strong----”

Mr. STRONG. J. M.

Mr. HUBERT. J. M. Strong [spelling] S-t-r-o-n-g.

Mr. STRONG. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. I am placing my name on that document also, and so that the record may show that both of us are talking about the same document, I will ask you to put your name below it. I am also marking another document, “Dallas, Tex., March 31, 1964. Exhibit 5120, Deposition of J. M. Strong” placing my name on that document and I ask you to place your name on it so that the record may show that we are both speaking of the same document. Now, I hand you the document that has been identified for the record as Exhibit 5121, and ask you to state what that document is?

Mr. STRONG. It is a copy of the money order as received in Fort Worth at 12:56 p.m.

Mr. HUBERT. On what date?

Mr. STRONG. On November 24, 1963--1964.

Mr. HUBERT. 1964?

Mr. STRONG. I’m sorry. Yes, certainly, payable to Karen Bennett sent by Jack Ruby.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you have anything to do with that transaction?

Mr. STRONG. I actually paid the $25 to Karen Bennett when she came into the office, approximately at 3:20 p.m., on the afternoon of November 24.

Mr. HUBERT. In what way do you identify this document? Is there anything on it?

Mr. STRONG. Yes, I asked her for identification and she presented her California driver’s license No. 768114, and description, black hair, blue eyes, height 5 feet 2. Weight 105.

Mr. HUBERT. I notice that those figures that you have just read off appear on the face of that document, is that correct?

Mr. STRONG. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. In whose handwriting are those figures written?

Mr. STRONG. Mine. I wrote it.

Mr. HUBERT. What is the significance of a time stamp, apparently, reading as follows: “1963, November 24th, p.m. 12:54.”

Mr. STRONG. After Karen Bennett had signed the receipt for the money and I handed her the $25, I put this under the time stamp and stamped the time the transaction was completed.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, I think there you have reference to the other stamped time as--reading as follows:

“1963, November 24th, p.m. 3:25”?

Mr. STRONG. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. But, I----

Mr. STRONG. I’m sorry.

Mr. HUBERT. I asked you about the 12:54.

Mr. STRONG. I’m sorry, that is the time it was received in our traffic department located on the third floor of the building at Third and Main.

Mr. HUBERT. How is that time stamped?

Mr. STRONG. By a time stamp the same as we have in all the offices.

Mr. HUBERT. Is that one of those timeclocks that the Western Union----

Mr. STRONG. Yes, sir; it is.

Mr. HUBERT. To your knowledge, is that synchronized to national time?

Mr. STRONG. I am not too certain of that, because they can be set rather easily with a key, and they have--it is, I believe, an independent unit. Now, it might be synchronized as a group, but I don’t believe with a master clock.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, are you sure of that?

Mr. STRONG. No, sir; I am not--I am not too positive of it, yet, it could be--very well be tied into the master circuit and synchronized the same as the clocks are.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know of any clocks that are used in the Fort Worth office that are not synchronized into the national circuit?

Mr. STRONG. You are speaking of time stamps? No, no; they are all on the same circuit.

Mr. HUBERT. Would it be your opinion that all the time stamps on this Exhibit 5121 were stamped by machines that are synchronized to the national circuit?

Mr. STRONG. Yes, sir; I believe that is true.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, I think you have already testified that the other time stamp on here, to wit: “3:25 p.m., November 24th,” indicates the time that the money was actually delivered, is that correct?

Mr. STRONG. Yes, as soon as I had paid her the money I turned that immediately and stamped that on the clock.

Mr. HUBERT. So that the time of delivery of the money and time of stamping are almost identical?

Mr. STRONG. Yes, but a few seconds intervening.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you have an independent recollection of this transaction, Mr. Strong?

Mr. STRONG. Nothing that was outstanding, sir, because as a party comes in inquiring for money and they have the money order, there is a routine form, almost has become routine, that we use to satisfy ourselves that the right party is receiving the money.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know whether the person made inquiry about this money at any time prior to the time that the money was actually----

Mr. STRONG. That is apparently true although I did not talk with her myself, but in the lower right-hand corner you will find the letters, “WC”, which indicates will-call. That was placed there by one of our telephone operators who had answered her inquiry and gone to the file and searched this out and told her that it was there and that she had informed her that she would call at the office for the money.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you get this information from that telephone operator?

Mr. STRONG. No; but it was on--it was given directly to me and I just recorded it on the form.

Mr. HUBERT. So that when this document came into your possession you knew from the numerals, or letters, “WC”, that there would be a call?

Mr. STRONG. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. What is this?

Mr. STRONG. That is the initial JMS, and California driver’s license--California--Calif--driver’s license, BR, abbreviations.

Mr. HUBERT. Was that the identification on the driver’s license?

Mr. STRONG. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. I show you on Exhibit 5121, stamped on an angle right below the word “Union,” in large letters what appears to be another stamp of time which is not quite clear to me. It seems to say, 1963, November 24th, and then something in parentheses, and 60 something. Can you tell us what that means?

Mr. STRONG. Yes; the 26 in parentheses is the digit time that the operator completed the transmission of the message in Dallas one day---the filing time on the application will show 12:26, that the time the operator completed sending it. This 1:04 p.m. is the time that the money order actually reached the main floor after the operator on the third floor released it. We stamp it again when it comes down again from the operating room--the money order department, and that was what the 1:04 p.m. means, actually received the money.

Mr. HUBERT. What is the parentheses?

Mr. STRONG. I say, the digit number when the operator in Dallas completed sending it. In other words, here the message was filed at 11:17 a.m., sent back to the traffic department and the operator put her stamp on it, and when it is completed then she puts the 2:06 in digits indicating that the transaction was completed now, which would have been 11:26 I assume.

Mr. HUBERT. That is to say that is when the telegram got back to Dallas?

Mr. STRONG. That is when it left Dallas.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, it would not have left Dallas on November 26.

Mr. STRONG. No; this is the digited time.

In other words, either 11:26 a.m., or 12:26 p.m. indicating that the operator had completed the transaction at that time.

Mr. HUBERT. All right. Now, I show you another document which has been identified as Exhibit 5120, and ask you what this document represents?

Mr. STRONG. On certain money orders when the party is coming into the office to receive payment we make up what we call a receipt form. That, you will notice, is a money order receipt form with my initials, J. M. S., and D. L. L., and No. 4, the wire number out of Dallas.

Mr. HUBERT. Does this conform with the number on Exhibit No. 5121?

Mr. STRONG. Yes, the same number.

Mr. HUBERT. I see.

Mr. STRONG. And then, of course, the dates and the sender’s name, the office from which the money order came. The date, the amount and the payee’s name.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, who typed that out?

Mr. STRONG. I did.

Mr. HUBERT. On Exhibit 5120?

Mr. STRONG. Yes, I typed all of this.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, I see a signature there which purports to be that of Karen Bennett. Who signed----

Mr. STRONG. Karen Bennett supposedly is the one who came in and presented the California driver’s license.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, you are referring to the figures on Exhibit No. 5120, is that right?

Mr. STRONG. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Did she sign that in your presence?

Mr. STRONG. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. And I think you have already testified that from the time stamp on Document 5121, she would have signed that at approximately 3:25 p.m., on November 24, 1963, is that correct?

Mr. STRONG. That’s correct, yes.

Mr. HUBERT. There is nothing on Exhibit 5120, that indicates the time of sending, is that right?

Mr. STRONG. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Are you able to state, however, that the time stamped on 5121, indicates that the transaction was completed at 3:25 p.m., on November 24, 1963?

Mr. STRONG. Yes, immediately after Karen Bennett signed this receipt I stamped----

Mr. HUBERT. “This receipt,” to wit: Exhibit 5121?

Mr. STRONG. Then I stamped the Exhibit 5121, to show the time that payment had been made.

Mr. HUBERT. And that’s all you know about the matter?

Mr. STRONG. Yes, sir; that’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember if Karen Bennett was alone or was there someone with her?

Mr. STRONG. She was alone. There was no one with her that came into the office.

Mr. HUBERT. Had she been waiting around?

Mr. STRONG. No, sir; no. She walked in and I immediately waited upon her. Asked her if I might help her, and she told me she was expecting a money order, and, of course, I went through the money order file and paid her upon her identification.

Mr. HUBERT. Had you prepared the money order receipt, which is identified as Exhibit 5120, prior to the time she came in?

Mr. STRONG. Yes, we do that as quickly as they come in, as we find the time to do so.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, we have been speaking about Exhibit 5120, in a sense that might indicate we were dealing with the original document. I asked you if it is not true that the actual piece of paper that we have identified as 5120, is a photostatic copy of it?

Mr. STRONG. Yes, it is. The original would be green in color.

Mr. HUBERT. I see. There are some initials on 5120 following the words, “Issuing employee.” Whose initials are those?

Mr. STRONG. Those are my initials indicating that I paid the money order.

Mr. HUBERT. Mr. Strong, have you had any interviews with any members of the President’s Commission other than myself in regard to this matter?

Mr. STRONG. No, I have not.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, there was an interview between you and me prior to the commencement of this deposition earlier this morning?

Mr. STRONG. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. In this deposition, have we covered everything that was covered in the course of our interview?

Mr. STRONG. I think so. I don’t believe there is anything I can add there.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know of any inconsistencies in our interview that have not been developed in the course of this deposition?

Mr. STRONG. No, sir; I do not.

Mr. HUBERT. This Karen Bennett came in in a normal manner and left in a normal manner and exhibited no emotion whatsoever?

Mr. STRONG. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you know of the shooting of Oswald when she came in?

Mr. STRONG. No, sir; I did not. I have been on duty since 7 o’clock that morning with no means of communication whatsoever. In fact, I did not know it until after payment of this money order had been made. One of the messengers mentioned the fact that Oswald had been killed, and that a party by the name of Rubenstein had shot him, which couldn’t register with me at all, because I did not connect the names.

Mr. HUBERT. Did Karen Bennett indicate in any way that she knew that Ruby had shot Oswald?

Mr. STRONG. No, sir; there was no conversation between us at all other than the conversation in respect to the money order.

Mr. HUBERT. And the identification?

Mr. STRONG. Pardon me?

Mr. HUBERT. And the identification?

Mr. STRONG. And the identification. After the transaction she left the office and there was no occasion of that--there was no further conversation.

Mr. HUBERT. Thank you very much, sir.

TESTIMONY OF IRA N. WALKER, JR.

The testimony of Ira N. Walker, Jr., was taken at 1 p.m., on April 15, 1964, at the Post Office Building, Fort Worth, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr., assistant counsel of the President’s Commission.

Mr. HUBERT. This is the deposition of Ira N. Walker, Jr.

Mr. Walker, my name is Leon Hubert. I am a member of the advisory staff of the General Counsel of the President’s Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy.

Under the provisions of President Johnson’s Executive Order 11130, dated November 29, 1963, the Joint Resolution of Congress No. 137, and the rules of procedure adopted by the Commission, in conformance with that Executive order and that joint resolution, I have been authorized to take a sworn deposition from you, Mr. Walker.

I state to you now that the general nature of the Commission’s inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate, and report upon the facts relative to the assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of Lee Harvey Oswald.

In particular as to you, Mr. Walker, the nature of the inquiry today is to determine what facts you know about the death of Oswald and any other pertinent facts you may know about the general inquiry, and particularly about the whereabouts of Jack Ruby near the Police Department Building in Dallas on November 24.

Now, Mr. Walker, I believe you appeared here today by virtue of a request made in writing to you by Mr. J. Lee Rankin, General Counsel of the President’s Commission. For the record, would you state whether you received that letter?

Mr. WALKER. I did; yes.

Mr. HUBERT. When?

Mr. WALKER. Must have been last Friday.

Mr. HUBERT. It was in excess of 3 days ago?

Mr. WALKER. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, so would you mind taking the oath?

Mr. WALKER. I will.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. WALKER. I do.

Mr. HUBERT. Would you state your name, please, sir.

Mr. WALKER. Ira N. Walker, Jr.

Mr. HUBERT. What is your age, sir?

Mr. WALKER. Thirty-five.

Mr. HUBERT. And your address?

Mr. WALKER. 6913 Hightower.

Mr. HUBERT. Fort Worth?

Mr. WALKER. Fort Worth.

Mr. HUBERT. What is your occupation?

Mr. WALKER. Broadcast technician.

Mr. HUBERT. What station?

Mr. WALKER. WBAP-TV.

Mr. HUBERT. How long have you been so employed?

Mr. WALKER. Since 1948.

Mr. HUBERT. Were you on duty in Dallas in connection with the visit of the President of the United States on November 22?

Mr. WALKER. I was on duty after the assassination of the President.

Mr. HUBERT. When did you first go on duty?

Mr. WALKER. In Dallas, the afternoon of the shooting. We went to Parkland Hospital.

Mr. HUBERT. When you say, “we,” who do you mean?

Mr. WALKER. Our remote crew truck and crew of about four of five of us, the first day.

Mr. HUBERT. You say a remote truck? Is that one of those trucks like a Greyhound bus that you haul the equipment?

Mr. WALKER. It is a little smaller than that, but it is the same.

Mr. HUBERT. What does your crew generally consist of? Or what did it consist of during that period we are talking about?

Mr. WALKER. Well, the first day, that was a rush deal and there wasn’t but four of us available, I think. And the second day, there was probably about eight of us, I imagine.

Mr. HUBERT. Now the first day, you mean the first day after the President’s assassination?

Mr. WALKER. Yes. Just after the assassination we took the truck with the men available and went.

Mr. HUBERT. That was on the 22d?

Mr. WALKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. So when you talk about the first day, you mean the day of the assassination?

Mr. WALKER. The day of the assassination.

Mr. HUBERT. When you say you “took” and “went,” did you go from Fort Worth?

Mr. WALKER. From Fort Worth.

Mr. HUBERT. To Parkland Hospital?

Mr. WALKER. We had already been to the President’s breakfast here in Fort Worth, and I covered that for radio here in Fort Worth. There was a crew with the TV truck here in Fort Worth, and they had already gone home at the time the President was assassinated, and I was still on duty, and they were called back in.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, could you name for us the people who were on the remote truck on the first day after the assassination of the President? That is to say, November 22.

Mr. WALKER. Well, let’s see, Johnny Smith and Warren Richey.

Mr. HUBERT. And yourself?

Mr. WALKER. And myself, and Dan Smith went that first day, I think. I don’t think he went any more.

Mr. HUBERT. Now each of you all had a definite function to perform, of course?

Mr. WALKER. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. So that we get it for the record and need not repeat it with the other witnesses, tell us the functions of each one of you on the truck.

Mr. WALKER. I was to handle audio, Johnny Smith was the video engineer, and the other two men were cameramen.

Mr. HUBERT. One of them drove the truck, I take it? Or did you have another man to drive?

Mr. WALKER. Yes; Johnny Smith was driving the larger truck, and I was in the little panel truck. And Supervisor Tom Bedford was driving the panel truck.

Mr. HUBERT. Is that on the first day?

Mr. WALKER. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, let’s pass to the second day. That is to say, Saturday the 23d. And by way of orientation, let me state that by that time, of course, the President was dead and Oswald had been charged both with the assassination of Officer Tippit and President Kennedy, and was in custody at the Dallas Police Department Building on Commerce, the building bounded by Commerce and Main on two sides, and Harwood on the front.

Now, on that second day, the 23d, did you have occasion to be on duty with the remote truck that day?

Mr. WALKER. Yes; I was.

Mr. HUBERT. All day long?

Mr. WALKER. Well, we were called out of bed at 1 o’clock Saturday morning. Let’s see, we burnt the engine up on the remote truck going to Parkland Hospital the day before, and it had to be towed over there by a wrecker, and I don’t know exactly what time we got to the Dallas City Hall. It was probably something like 3 in the morning.

Mr. HUBERT. Where did you park the truck, the remote truck?

Mr. WALKER. On the south side. That would be on Commerce Street, I believe. Right in front of the entrance.

Mr. HUBERT. The Commerce Street entrance?

Mr. WALKER. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. How far away from the front, if you remember, roughly?

Mr. WALKER. Let’s see, there was, I believe, another remote truck between our truck and the corner.

Mr. HUBERT. That is to say the corner of Commerce and Harwood?

Mr. WALKER. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. You were closer to the Commerce Street entrance than that truck was?

Mr. WALKER. Yes; we were directly in front of the Commerce Street stairway.

Mr. HUBERT. The Commerce Street exit from the basement is just beyond the Commerce Street stairway in the direction of Pearl Street, the Pearl Expressway?

Mr. WALKER. That’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. So I suppose it is fair to say that the front of your truck was not far from the Commerce Street exit?

Mr. WALKER. Well, the front of our truck was--there was just room enough for a motorcycle to park between the front of our truck and the driveway going to the basement of the city hall.

Mr. HUBERT. Of course, you had cameras on the inside, I take it?

Mr. WALKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. And on the outside, too?

Mr. WALKER. And one on top of the truck.

Mr. HUBERT. Did the truck stay there all that day?

Mr. WALKER. Yes; it stayed there all that day and that night.

Mr. HUBERT. What about the next day, the 24th?

Mr. WALKER. Yes; it was there all day the 24th up until, let’s see, I won’t tell you--I want to tell you very much, but this is very hard. That was a lost week for me. We slept very little, and most of the time I couldn’t even tell you what day it was over there, so it is difficult to say.

Mr. HUBERT. Let’s put it this way. To your knowledge, the truck never moved from its position as you have described it on Commerce Street until after the assassination of Oswald?

Mr. WALKER. That’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. Were you on duty continuously?

Mr. WALKER. The first day on Saturday, let’s see, we came in at--they woke us up about a little after 1 in the morning, and I was there until, I know, after 10 that night.

Mr. HUBERT. Saturday night?

Mr. WALKER. Yes, sir; I was going to bring that schedule with me and I forgot. It was in last year’s book.

Mr. HUBERT. Then at what time did you go to work on Sunday morning?

Mr. WALKER. I don’t remember. It was early, but I don’t remember.

Mr. HUBERT. Would you say it was daylight?

Mr. WALKER. It was right at daylight, I imagine. There was only one day that we came in late, and I believe it was later on in the week. We were over there early every morning except one, and we came in at 9 o’clock, that morning, but I believe it was later on on Monday or Tuesday.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you know Jack Ruby or of his existence prior to, say, the assassination of the President?

Mr. WALKER. No; I did not.

Mr. HUBERT. When did you first see a man that you now know to be Jack Ruby, if you did see such a man?

Mr. WALKER. I did see him, and I would say it was sometime after 10:30 in the morning that Oswald was shot.

Mr. HUBERT. That is to say, of the 24th?

Mr. WALKER. Let’s see; yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Now you didn’t know him at the time you saw him?

Mr. WALKER. No; I did not.

Mr. HUBERT. Would you state for the record just how you came to see this person?

Mr. WALKER. I was sitting in the truck at the audio board. We were waiting for Oswald to be brought down. The press had been told he would not be transferred until after 10:30 in the morning. That is the only thing I can tie the time down to, because we were on a standby basis waiting for Oswald to be moved, and Ruby came to the window of the truck and asked, “Has he been brought down yet?” He was standing on the sidewalk.

Mr. HUBERT. You didn’t know him to be Ruby at that time?

Mr. WALKER. No; I did not.

Mr. HUBERT. Can you tell us how he was dressed?

Mr. WALKER. No; I can’t. All I could see was his face. It is a very small window. We have curtains, and I think it was one corner unsnapped.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he have a hat on?

Mr. WALKER. I don’t know. He came to the window twice.

Mr. HUBERT. How far apart were the two times?

Mr. WALKER. I do not know. It was after 10:30.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you think he could have come to the window earlier than 10:30?

Mr. WALKER. I don’t know. I don’t believe at the time I saw him at the window, well, I am almost sure it was after 10:30, because I know I was sitting there. We were on a standby basis and waiting, and he did not mention Oswald’s name, that I can remember.

It was, he just said, “Has he been brought down yet?” And everybody knew who he was talking about, or I did.

Mr. HUBERT. Now have you seen Ruby since?

Mr. WALKER. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. How many times, do you suppose?

Mr. WALKER. I don’t know. It was over--I was a witness during the trial. I saw him before I was a witness, and I saw them bring him into the courtroom one morning.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, all the times you saw him were in connection with your function as a TV man covering the trial?

Mr. WALKER. No, sir; I was asked by the district attorney’s office to go look at Jack Ruby through the door of the courtroom prior to being a witness, to make sure that he was the same man that I saw come to the truck. And then I saw him while I was a witness.

Mr. HUBERT. When you did look through the door at the district attorney’s request and saw Jack Ruby, what opinion did you reach?

Mr. WALKER. I knew it was the same man.

Mr. HUBERT. And you subsequently saw him in the court when you testified?

Mr. WALKER. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Are you willing to say that the same man who was Jack Ruby in the courtroom was the man whom you described as coming up to the window?

Mr. WALKER. That was the same thing I told the Dallas district attorney, that the only reason I remember Jack Ruby is because within minutes after the shooting we had mug shots of Ruby on camera from the third floor of the city hall. And if it hadn’t been for those mug shots being in such a close time after he came to the window, I probably would never have remembered seeing him.

Mr. HUBERT. Would you tell us the mental process you went through in relating the face at the window to the mug shots?

Mr. WALKER. Well, about four of us pointed at him at the same time in the truck. I mean, we all recognized him at the same time.

Mr. HUBERT. As being the man?

Mr. WALKER. That had come to the truck.

Mr. HUBERT. It is your thought that that man who had peeked through the window had done so only a matter of minutes before, or would it have been an hour?

Mr. WALKER. I can’t say. I don’t know.

Mr. HUBERT. But as you sit here now, your best impression is that--better still, your opinion is that the man who did look through that window and asked you, “Have they brought him down yet?” was Jack Ruby?

Mr. WALKER. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. As a matter of fact, you have confirmed that a number of times, to wit, almost immediately after when you saw the mug shots on TV, and then at least on two other occasions when you looked in through the window in the courtroom, and again when you were face to face with him in the courtroom?

Mr. WALKER. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Is there any possibility that your seeing him as you have described it through the window, could have been on the previous day?

Mr. WALKER. No. He may have been there, but I don’t remember him.

Mr. HUBERT. This event that you are talking about did not take place on the previous day?

Mr. WALKER. No. I have heard people say that he was on, that they had seen him on the sidewalk, but I did not, to my knowledge. There were so many people; a lot of people asked questions, and most of the time I say, “I don’t know,” hoping they will go on.

Mr. HUBERT. As I understand, the thing that makes it certain in your mind that he was Jack Ruby is because of the association of the face that peered to you in the window and the mug shots that came through the camera right after?

Mr. WALKER. That’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. The two link together in your mind?

Mr. WALKER. That is the only thing. I would not have remembered him if it had not been for the mug shots. There were so many people, there is no way I believe that I could have remembered him. And if he hadn’t come back to the window the second time, I might not have linked it with the mug shots.

Mr. HUBERT. How much time was there, do you think, between the two times?

Mr. WALKER. I don’t know. I really don’t. I wish I could help but anything I’d say would be a wild guess.

Mr. HUBERT. Mr. Walker, I want to show you a report of an interview that was had of you by FBI Agents Earle Haley and Robley D. Madland on December 4, 1963, which I have marked for identification as Fort Worth, Tex., April 15, 1964, Exhibit 5315, deposition of Ira Walker, under which I have signed my name. I would like you to read it, sir, after which I am going to ask you if there are any errors or any corrections you want to make, anything that has been omitted, or modifications that you believe to be necessary.

Mr. WALKER. [Reading report.]

No. I wasn’t the one that said, “I saw him between 7:30 and 8 a.m.”

Mr. HUBERT. That FBI report which has been identified as 5315, contains the statement in the middle paragraph reading as follows, to wit:

“Walker said that on the morning of November 24, that the first time he recalled seeing Jack Ruby was shortly before the mobile unit was set up, which would have been between 7:30 and 8 a.m. Walker said that he first saw Ruby shortly after the armored truck was backed into the basement of the Police Department.” Now would you address your comments to that statement, Mr. Walker?

Mr. WALKER. I believe one of the other boys said he saw him between 7:30 and 8, but it was not me because I don’t remember seeing him. But as far as the association with the armored truck, now the armored truck was not backed into there until around 10:30.

Mr. HUBERT. Your thought is that when you saw Ruby the first time----

Mr. WALKER. Was after 10:30.

Mr. HUBERT. Was after the armored truck was backed in?

Mr. WALKER. It was after I was on a standby basis and sitting in my seat in the truck just waiting for somebody to roll tape.

Mr. HUBERT. What does the standby basis mean in the TV industry?

Mr. WALKER. It means to stand by to go on the air any time on call at a moment’s notice, because we had been told he would be moved after 10:30.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you have any distinct recollection that the first time you saw him was after the armored truck was moved in?

Mr. WALKER. I don’t believe the armored truck was backed in until after 10:30.

Mr. HUBERT. So as I understand it then, with respect to the language in Exhibit 5315, there are really two corrections that you wish to make. One is concerning the time 7:30 to 8, and the other is concerning the relation between your seeing Ruby and the truck backing into the ramp?

Mr. WALKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Your thought, then, as I understand, is that it was considerably later than 7:30 or 8 o’clock, in fact, it was about 10:30?

Mr. WALKER. Or after.

Mr. HUBERT. Or after, but you think that it was before the armored truck backed in?

Mr. WALKER. I don’t know.

Mr. HUBERT. It could be either?

Mr. WALKER. It could be either; yes.

Mr. HUBERT. You did see him twice, though?

Mr. WALKER. I did see him at the window twice.

Mr. HUBERT. It is possible that the first time you saw him, the armored truck had not backed in and the second time it had?

Mr. WALKER. It is possible; yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Would your best guess be, considering--well, I don’t want you to guess. Would your best impression or opinion now be that the time that you first saw Ruby was less than an hour before the shooting of Oswald took place?

Mr. WALKER. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And that thereafter, the time that you saw him on the second time would have been less than an hour, too?

Mr. WALKER. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. You do not have any recollection now, as I understand, as to the time interval between the two times you saw him?

Mr. WALKER. No, sir; I don’t know.

Mr. HUBERT. I think you have said that--perhaps we should repeat what he told you on each occasion or what he said or asked?

Mr. WALKER. As near as I can remember, he just asked, “Has he been brought down?” or “Have they brought him down yet?”

Mr. HUBERT. On both occasions?

Mr. WALKER. Yes; and I am not sure, I probably told him “I don’t know.” It says here that I said, “No.” But I have no way of knowing yes or no, really, which is true. We had cameras, and I could see what the cameramen were doing, but I still really have no way of knowing.

Mr. HUBERT. Perhaps you’d better describe for the record what you meant by mug shots?

Mr. WALKER. Well, as I understand it, from listening on the intercom, we were told we were going to get pictures of Jack Ruby and that we would have to get them right away because our people did not have the pictures and would not be allowed to have them, and I assumed that someone from the police department would be holding those pictures, because they--we were told to get the tapes to rolling, because we wouldn’t get a second shot at him. And it would just be, get them or miss them, and I presume that someone in the police department was holding those pictures.

Mr. HUBERT. In front of a camera inside the jail?

Mr. WALKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. It was that mug shot that you remembered talking about that immediately brought to your mind “this is the man I saw just before the shooting of Oswald, or sometime before the shooting”?

Mr. WALKER. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Now have you been interviewed by any member of the President’s Commission before this date, sir?

Mr. WALKER. No; only there were some FBI men came to the station, and I believe they are the men you mentioned here.

Mr. HUBERT. I meant members of the President’s Commission?

Mr. WALKER. No, sir; not to my knowledge.

Mr. HUBERT. I have omitted to explore one area. You were called as a witness in the trial of Ruby?

Mr. WALKER. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall the general nature of your testimony then?

Mr. WALKER. To state the same thing that I have here, that Jack Ruby came to the window of the truck.

Mr. HUBERT. You were called by the State?

Mr. WALKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. To the best of your recollection, has your testimony today been any different from that which you gave at the trial of Ruby?

Mr. WALKER. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Has there been anything omitted here that was brought out in the trial of Ruby when you were a witness?

Mr. WALKER. No; in fact, it has been covered much better. The State didn’t bring out the fact that we saw mug shots, and the defense kind of tore me up on that.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, when the defense tore you up, I suppose what they were trying to do is say you simply couldn’t recall?

Mr. WALKER. They asked me how long I had known Ruby, which I did not know him, and they were trying to----

Mr. HUBERT. Did you give the explanation as to the mug shots?

Mr. WALKER. No, sir; I did not.

Mr. HUBERT. But it is a fact that the mug shots, that your connection between the mug shots did in fact take place?

Mr. WALKER. Yes, sir; that is the only real tie, is the fact that we had the mug shots. I probably wouldn’t have remembered the man coming to the window if it hadn’t been for the mug shots. I told District Attorney Wade that before I went in as a witness, but he didn’t follow it up.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, to wrap it up, you are saying under oath now that the man at the window and the man in the mug shots and the man in the courtroom identified as Jack Ruby were one and the same person?

Mr. WALKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. You have already testified that you recall the interview of you on December 4, by FBI Agents Earle Haley and Robley Madland. At the time you were interviewed, were you interviewed by those agents alone?

Mr. WALKER. No.

Mr. HUBERT. How did the interview take place?

Mr. WALKER. The two agents, myself, Warren Richey, Johnny Smith, and there might have been some others, Jimmy Turner was there part of the time--of course, he introduced us to the FBI men, and I think he had already talked to him previously.

Mr. HUBERT. All of you were interviewed as a group rather than individually, is that right?

Mr. WALKER. That’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. Were you shown a copy of the notes relative to what your statements were?

Mr. WALKER. No; I have seen no notes.

Mr. HUBERT. You have never seen any draft of the documents which have been identified as Exhibit 5315?

Mr. WALKER. Today is the first time I have ever seen that.

Mr. HUBERT. During the interview, did the FBI agents ask each of you to speak alone, or was it a composite sort of interview?

Mr. WALKER. It was composite. We spoke as we remembered the situation. I mean, everybody described the whole thing as it progressed along as best he could.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember what the FBI did by way of segregating the identification of each of you?

Mr. WALKER. No, sir; I don’t know.

Mr. HUBERT. Have you anything else to say?

Mr. WALKER. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, thank you very much.

TESTIMONY OF JOHN L. DANIELS

The testimony of John L. Daniels was taken at 10 a.m., on April 1, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr., assistant counsel of the President’s Commission.

Mr. HUBERT. This is the deposition of John L. Daniels.

Mr. DANIELS. That’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. Mr. Daniels, I have to read some things to you. Mr. Daniels, my name is Leon D. Hubert, and I am a member of the advisory staff of the General Counsel of the President’s Commission. Under the Provisions of the Executive Order 11130, dated November 29, 1963, the Joint Resolution of Congress No. 137, and the rules of procedure adopted by the Commission in conformance with that Executive order and the joint resolution, I have been authorized to take the sworn deposition of you. I state to you now that the general nature of the Commission’s inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate and report upon the facts relative to the assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of Lee Harvey Oswald. In particular as to you, Mr. Daniels, the nature of the inquiry today is to determine what facts you know about the death of Oswald and any other pertinent facts you may know about the general inquiry including the parking of the car that belonged to Mr. Ruby at the parking lot next to you, I think.

Now, Mr. Daniels, I understand that you received a letter from Mr. J. Lee Rankin, General Counsel of the Commission asking you to appear to have your testimony taken by this deposition. Did you receive that letter over 3 days ago from today?

Mr. DANIELS. It has been longer than that.

Mr. HUBERT. It has been longer than that? All right, now, will you stand and take the oath, please, and raise your right hand.

Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. DANIELS. Yes, I do.

Mr. HUBERT. Will you state your name, please. Sit down, please.

Mr. DANIELS. My name is John L. Daniels.

Mr. HUBERT. And your age?

Mr. DANIELS. My age is 32.

Mr. HUBERT. Where do you live, Mr. Daniels?

Mr. DANIELS. 2314 South Boulevard.

Mr. HUBERT. South Boulevard, Dallas, Tex.?

Mr. DANIELS. That’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. What is your present occupation? Where do you work?

Mr. DANIELS. Working out of the Adolphus Garage now.

Mr. HUBERT. Adolphus Garage? That is connected to the Adolphus Hotel?

Mr. DANIELS. Across the street from it, but just the name of it. The one connected to the Adolphus Hotel is onto the building.

Mr. HUBERT. I see, is that located at 1326 Commerce Street?

Mr. DANIELS. That’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, on November 24, 1963, which was a Sunday, where were you working?

Mr. DANIELS. Working for Norton parking lot.

Mr. HUBERT. Working for Ralph Norton, Norton’s Auto Park?

Mr. DANIELS. Yes, auto park right across from Western Union.

Mr. HUBERT. That is Main Street?

Mr. DANIELS. Main Street, 2335 Main.

Mr. HUBERT. Is there another parking lot next to yours?

Mr. DANIELS. The one just--used to be the same lot, but divided it up.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know a man by the name of Theodore Jackson?

Mr. DANIELS. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Who is he?

Mr. DANIELS. He is the colored fellow working in the next block to me. On Sunday our lots work together.

Mr. HUBERT. What time did you go on duty at the parking lot, Mr. Daniels, on November 24?

Mr. DANIELS. November 24?

Mr. HUBERT. That was the day that Oswald was shot in the jail.

Mr. DANIELS. It was somewhere around, I imagine it was after the shot was made when I went on, and went down in the city hall, I imagine it was about----

Mr. HUBERT. Well, I am talking about the time you went to work.

Mr. DANIELS. Time I went to work?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Mr. DANIELS. Somewhere around 12 o’clock, I believe it was. I never did pay much attention to the time.

Mr. HUBERT. Where did you come from when you went to work?

Mr. DANIELS. I came from home.

Mr. HUBERT. You hadn’t been hanging around the Main Street prior to that, had you?

Mr. DANIELS. No; I hadn’t been hanging around there.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, what time----

Mr. DANIELS. I lived about a street--I was staying at the Pacific Hotel, and had the radio on and heard about the shooting and got up and come on out of there then, about 2 blocks from there.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words you were in your home at the Pacific Hotel on Pacific Avenue, Pacific Street and turned the radio on and heard the shooting?

Mr. DANIELS. That’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. Then you came down to the parking lot?

Mr. DANIELS. Ambulance came by blowing, and I got up and came on down to the parking lot then.

Mr. HUBERT. You saw the ambulance go by?

Mr. DANIELS. I heard it blowing.

Mr. HUBERT. Oh, I see.

Mr. DANIELS. They had the sirens blowing was all.

Mr. HUBERT. I see. Do you know Mr. Jack Ruby?

Mr. DANIELS. No, sir; I don’t know him.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know anything about the parking of his car on Mr. Norton’s lot?

Mr. DANIELS. No, sir; car was parked next lot to it.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you see it?

Mr. DANIELS. Yes; I seen the car.

Mr. HUBERT. How did you know it was Mr. Ruby’s car?