Chapter XVI: Part 16

Mrs. CARLIN. Yes; I reached him at home. He answered the telephone. And I asked Jack if we were going to be open, and he got very angry and was very short with me. He said, “Don’t you have any respect for the President? Don’t you know the President is dead?” And I said, “Jack, I am sorry. Andrew said that perhaps we would be open, and I don’t have any money, and you know I am supposed to get paid.” And I wanted some money on my pay to get back home. And he said, “I don’t know when I will open. I don’t know if I will ever open back up.” And he was very hateful. And he said something he had to come down to the club in about an hour and for me to wait and he would see me then. And I hung up and told my husband what had happened, and we waited and waited and he didn’t show up. That is when my husband and I went down to the garage and Tammi had to go see some friend there at the Theatre Lounge.

Mr. HUBERT. This first call that you made was not made from the garage?

Mrs. CARLIN. No. It was made from the Colony Club.

Mr. HUBERT. So then you went over to the garage?

Mrs. CARLIN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. What was the purpose of going there?

Mrs. CARLIN. Because we wouldn’t have any more money and we didn’t want to sit up there.

Mr. HUBERT. So then did you call Mr. Ruby again?

Mrs. CARLIN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you or your husband?

Mrs. CARLIN. My husband.

Mr. HUBERT. Were you present when your husband called?

Mrs. CARLIN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you hear what your husband, at least, said on his end of the line?

Mrs. CARLIN. Yes; but I didn’t pay much attention. I was sitting in the chair talking to the man that was in there, the man that worked at the garage.

Mr. HUBERT. So you are not able to tell us really what happened on your husband’s end of the line?

Mrs. CARLIN. No.

Mr. HUBERT. What happened after that?

Mrs. CARLIN. Well, my husband then handed the phone to me and called me back to the phone so I got on the telephone and Jack said, “Tell the man at the garage, put him on the phone,” and he said, “I will let you have $5 to get back home.” And that was all that was said, and he gave me $5, and I signed a receipt, and that was all.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you talk to Jack about the rest of your salary?

Mrs. CARLIN. No.

Mr. HUBERT. How much in fact was due at that time?

Mrs. CARLIN. I don’t remember. I had drew some on my salary. I wouldn’t say for sure, but I had drew some that week.

Mr. HUBERT. You were asking him not merely for $5, but all that was due you, I take it?

Mrs. CARLIN. No; I was just asking him for an advance.

Mr. HUBERT. Oh, I see.

Mrs. CARLIN. Because he had been nice to me and let me have an advance before, so I just wanted an advance until he got the club back open.

Mr. HUBERT. Was your salary due at the end of the week or the beginning?

Mrs. CARLIN. At the end of the week.

Mr. HUBERT. Wasn’t your salary due that Saturday night?

Mrs. CARLIN. I think it was; yes. I think I got paid on Saturday. It was either Saturday or Monday, I don’t remember, because I got my salary on Monday twice.

Mr. JACKSON. Karen, could you have gotten paid on Sunday night?

Mrs. CARLIN. It could have been Sunday. It was either Saturday or Sunday. I got paid twice on Monday.

Mr. JACKSON. On this particular night of November 23, on the telephone when you talked to Jack and he said I will let you have $5 through the garageman and, you signed the receipt, did you ask him for any given amount of money or just for some money?

Mrs. CARLIN. Just enough money to get back home on, and I happened to mention I would need money for rent tomorrow, and he said to call him.

Mr. JACKSON. Call him tomorrow?

Mrs. CARLIN. Yes. He didn’t say what time.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, on the Saturday night you did mention to him the question of getting not merely the $5, enough to get back, but really a part of your salary, which would become due whenever pay day was, whether it was Saturday night or Sunday or Monday night?

Mrs. CARLIN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Do I understand you that his remark was, “Well, I will let you have $5 now and then call tomorrow?”

Mrs. CARLIN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he say that he would send you money the next day?

Mrs. CARLIN. No; he did--just said call him tomorrow and he would talk about that tomorrow.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, the call that he wanted you to make on Sunday was with reference to your request for your pay?

Mrs. CARLIN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. I gather that he was not disposed to talk about it then, but invited you to call him the next day?

Mrs. CARLIN. That’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. And mentioned no time at all?

Mrs. CARLIN. No.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, then, did you call him the next day?

Mrs. CARLIN. Yes; I did.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, where did you call him from?

Mrs. CARLIN. From our home.

Mr. HUBERT. Where was that now?

Mrs. CARLIN. I don’t remember the address. Meadowbrook Drive.

Mr. HUBERT. Did Mr. Weldon Thompson--did you all have a phone listed in your own name?

Mrs. CARLIN. Bruce Carlin.

Mr. HUBERT. Was it listed in your husband’s name?

Mrs. CARLIN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. That phone you used?

Mrs. CARLIN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And you called Jack?

Mrs. CARLIN. At home.

Mr. HUBERT. Is it a long distance call between Fort Worth and Dallas?

Mrs. CARLIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Charged to your phone, I take it?

Mrs. CARLIN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember what time you called him?

Mrs. CARLIN. It was 10. I think it was around 10 or 10:05 or 10:15, something like that. It was between that time.

Mr. HUBERT. Would you be able to say with any degree of accuracy that it could not have been earlier than 10?

Mrs. CARLIN. It could have been. I am not going to say for sure.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, the fact of the matter is, the phone records show--I don’t have them before me, but the phone records show it was about that time. Could you just tell us the gist of the conversation with Jack on that occasion.

Mrs. CARLIN. Well, Jack answered the telephone. And I told him who it was, and he said, “Yes, well,” and I said, “I have called, Jack, to try to get some money, because the rent is due and I need some money for groceries, and you told me to call.”

And he said, “How much will you need?” And I said--I’ll ask my husband, and then I said about “$25.”

Mr. HUBERT. Your husband was in the room with you?

Mrs. CARLIN. Yes. He was in the part of the front part of the house. And he said, “Well, I have to go downtown anyway, so I will send it to you by Western Union.” And he asked me what name to send it in, and I told him, “Karen Bennett.”

Mr. HUBERT. Was it arranged to be sent to your home or what?

Mrs. CARLIN. No; to Western Union downtown.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he tell you about what time to expect it?

Mrs. CARLIN. No. I asked him what time, about how long, and he didn’t say.

Mr. HUBERT. You mean he didn’t say anything, or he said he didn’t know?

Mrs. CARLIN. He said, “Well,” he did say it would take a little while to get dressed and something about the dog, I don’t remember what it was. And he said, “I’ll go on down and send it to you.” And I said, “I sure would appreciate it.” And that is about all there was.

Mr. HUBERT. Now was your rent in fact due?

Mrs. CARLIN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Had your landlord been pressing you for the rent?

Mrs. CARLIN. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Did Ruby seem to be annoyed that you were asking for money on Sunday?

Mrs. CARLIN. No; he--not that Sunday, he didn’t seem to be annoyed.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you think that there was a difference in his attitude toward the money that you asked for on Sunday as opposed to the money you asked for the night before?

Mrs. CARLIN. Yes. He still seemed upset, you know, or hateful, short, but he didn’t seem as much as he was Saturday night.

Mr. HUBERT. He definitely indicated to you that he would have to dress, is that correct?

Mrs. CARLIN. Yes. He said, “It will take me about 20 or 30 minutes to get dressed, and then I will go on down.” And something that he had to do with the dogs’ freedom, I think.

Mr. JACKSON. About the dogs?

Mrs. CARLIN. Yes. He had some dogs. Kept them in the club.

Mr. HUBERT. Now when did you first hear about Oswald’s shooting?

Mrs. CARLIN. Well, I heard that right after I talked to Jack. It wasn’t very long after that on the television, and my husband was watching the television and I was washing dishes, and my husband said, “Karen, isn’t that Jack?” And I said, I thought he was joking. I told him to shut up and I started laughing, and sure enough it came out that it was Jack.

Mr. HUBERT. You mean you saw pictures of Jack Ruby?

Mrs. CARLIN. After that on the news.

Mr. HUBERT. Rerun, you mean?

Mrs. CARLIN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. You are talking about that famous picture that shows Jack coming through?

Mrs. CARLIN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. It shows really the back of him, doesn’t it?

Mrs. CARLIN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Were you able to recognize him?

Mrs. CARLIN. They knew his name. They had already broadcast his name.

Mr. HUBERT. So that when you saw, you recognized him? You mean you recognized his name before you saw any picture?

Mrs. CARLIN. Yes. My husband was the one that first saw him. I didn’t see it. It was a rerun, I think, that I saw, because they already had his name and that he had the Carousel Club.

Mr. HUBERT. This was prior to the time you went to Western Union?

Mrs. CARLIN. No; I had not gone down to Western Union.

Mr. HUBERT. This was prior?

Mrs. CARLIN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. What did you do about the money at Western Union?

Mrs. CARLIN. After I saw the thing on television, I said I bet Jack didn’t send the money, so my husband dialed the number and he asked if they had a money order for me, and they said, “Yes.”

Mr. HUBERT. You mean dialed the number to the Western Union?

Mrs. CARLIN. Yes. And he said, “Yes, they did.” Then my husband and I got dressed and after we ate, we got dressed and went down and picked it up.

Mr. HUBERT. Well----

Mr. JACKSON. About what time was this call made, do you remember?

Mrs. CARLIN. No.

Mr. JACKSON. Could it have been in the afternoon?

Mrs. CARLIN. Yes. It probably was in the afternoon, because after I talked to Jack, we ate and washed dishes, and I cleaned up the house, and it took me a while to get dressed.

Mr. HUBERT. Then you all went down to Western Union?

Mrs. CARLIN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. You signed the necessary papers?

Mrs. CARLIN. We had to take a bus down, so that took quite a while, too. I don’t remember what time it was.

Mr. HUBERT. Was the money paid to the landlord, do you know?

Mrs. CARLIN. Yes; we paid the rent.

Mr. HUBERT. That same day?

Mrs. CARLIN. I don’t remember if it was the same day or not.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, did you keep the money, or did you give it to your husband?

Mrs. CARLIN. I gave it to my husband. We didn’t have enough money to get back on the bus, so we had to take some of it and go back on the bus.

Mr. HUBERT. I don’t follow you.

Mrs. CARLIN. We rode a bus downtown, and we had enough money to get downtown, but not enough to get back.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you have to use part of the $25 to get back, but you gave the difference to him?

Mrs. CARLIN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Had your landlord been pressing you for the money?

Mrs. CARLIN. No. It wasn’t just the rent. It was groceries, too, because my husband wasn’t working at the time.

Mr. HUBERT. You had not known Jack Ruby, I take it, prior to the time you first went to work for him?

Mrs. CARLIN. No. I had seen Jack Ruby one other time before that, but I didn’t know who he was.

My girl friend and I, a stripper, at the Theatre Lounge, was walking to the bus stop at the Greyhound bus station to get something to eat during our hour break, and we were walking, and this big Cadillac drove up and tooted the horn and my girl friend smiled and it turned out to be Jack Ruby after I met him. I knew who it was. But he left a card on the sidewalk in front of us saying the Carousel Club.

Mr. HUBERT. How long before you went to work for him, then, did that episode take place?

Mrs. CARLIN. This was about 2 weeks before, because I went home and told my husband about it.

Mr. HUBERT. He was driving a Cadillac?

Mrs. CARLIN. Yes. There was three of them in the car, two men and one woman. I never did see the man or woman, didn’t recognize them.

Mr. HUBERT. Who was driving?

Mrs. CARLIN. It was Jack. It turned out to be Jack. I asked him if he was the one that was driving the car and threw the card on the sidewalk, and he said, “Yes, I was.”

Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever find out who the other people were in the car?

Mrs. CARLIN. No; I never did ask him.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you find out subsequently what kind of car Jack drove?

Mrs. CARLIN. No.

Mr. HUBERT. This was definitely a Cadillac?

Mrs. CARLIN. Yes. It could have been the other person’s car he was driving.

Mr. HUBERT. There was one man?

Mrs. CARLIN. There was two men.

Mr. HUBERT. Two men besides Jack?

Mrs. CARLIN. One besides Jack. Looked like a redheaded woman. After I saw Jack later--at that time I thought it was a stripper, but I don’t know.

Mr. HUBERT. They were all riding in the front of the car?

Mrs. CARLIN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. The girl was in the middle, I take it?

Mrs. CARLIN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. That was about 2 weeks after that that you went to work for him?

Mrs. CARLIN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you mention the name of the girl who was with you at that time? I think you did.

Mrs. CARLIN. It could have been Jada.

Mr. HUBERT. I meant the girl that you were walking with?

Mrs. CARLIN. She was a stripper. I don’t remember her name. She had a hose act. I don’t remember her name.

Mr. HUBERT. Kathy Kay?

Mrs. CARLIN. No. My husband could probably--it was Liza Sommers, because he adored her little act.

Mr. HUBERT. Liza?

Mrs. CARLIN. Sommers.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember Wally Weston?

Mrs. CARLIN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember when he left?

Mrs. CARLIN. No. I wasn’t there when he left. You are talking about the Carousel Club?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Mrs. CARLIN. No. I was never there when he performed there.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, he left before you got there?

Mrs. CARLIN. Yes; I met him after he left there and went in the theatre.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember a time when a man by the name of Rocco came to the Carousel and took quite a number of pictures of Ruby and the girls and the acts and so forth?

Mrs. CARLIN. There was so many people taking pictures all the time, that I don’t know.

Mr. HUBERT. This was--this man was from a magazine or at least he was attempting--this was quite some time prior to the assassination, but he came there and--as an advertising stunt or something of the sort, and took quite a number of pictures. Do you remember that?

Mrs. CARLIN. No; because I remember two or three different ones that came before this ever happened, so I don’t know who you are talking about. But they were all supposed to be from some kind of magazine.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember a picture of you and Tammi True and Jack together when Jack was sitting in his office in a chair and Tammi was on one side and you were on the other in sort of a crouch?

Mrs. CARLIN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember that picture?

Mrs. CARLIN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. About when was that taken, do you remember?

Mrs. CARLIN. That was before the shooting of the President.

Mr. HUBERT. Oh, yes; I know. But how much longer, do you know?

Mrs. CARLIN. I don’t know. I am not any good on times or anything.

Mr. HUBERT. Could you tell us whether it was--how long after you went to work for Jack was that picture taken? Now I am talking about the one that I have just described with Ruby in the middle and Tammi on one side and you on the other?

Mrs. CARLIN. There was never one taken with Tammi. The only one I had taken was with--what is her name--the one that was pregnant.

Mr. HUBERT. The large redheaded girl, the one that appeared in a magazine?

Mrs. CARLIN. I can’t place her name.

Mr. HUBERT. Joy?

Mrs. CARLIN. Yes, Joy.

Mr. HUBERT. McDonald?

Mrs. CARLIN. No; I can’t think of it.

Mr. HUBERT. Her stage name was Joy Dale?

Mrs. CARLIN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. That is the one I meant. I said Tammi True, but I was mistaken myself. She had dark curly hair?

Mrs. CARLIN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, now, as to that picture, can you relate the time of taking that picture to the time when you first went to work there?

Mrs. CARLIN. No; I guess it was a month after that, I know. At least, but I don’t know how much longer after that.

Mr. HUBERT. You don’t know whether it was summertime or----

Mrs. CARLIN. No; it was winter.

Mr. HILBERT. It was winter?

Mrs. CARLIN. Yes; it was getting cold.

Mr. HUBERT. Can you relate it--I think I have asked you this before, but perhaps your memory is fresher now. Can you relate it to the time of the death of the President?

Mrs. CARLIN. I would say 2 or 3 weeks before the death of the President.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember a rather large heavy fat man, very heavily built, who used to come to the Carousel almost every weekend and used to sit close by the stage and sort of carry on a banter with the theatre?

Mrs. CARLIN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know who he is?

Mrs. CARLIN. No; I don’t know who he is. But I remember him. He weighed about 300 pounds.

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Mrs. CARLIN. Used to beat on the stage and holler and scream. I don’t remember--I don’t know his name. I never did meet him, but I remember him.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you know George Senator?

Mrs. CARLIN. Not by name. I probably would know his face, but I don’t know his name.

Mr. HUBERT. You don’t know what his relationship was to Ruby?

Mrs. CARLIN. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Then do you know--and I don’t mean from your own knowledge at all, but from what you might have heard, what Jack’s relationship in general with people of the opposite sex was? What his relationship with girls was?

Mrs. CARLIN. No; I would rather not answer it.

Mr. HUBERT. That is all right. Mind you, I want it clear I was not asking in relation to anything with respect to you yourself, but as to what you have heard?

Mr. JACKSON. Did he ever make any advances towards you?

Mrs. CARLIN. Yes; one time.

Mr. JACKSON. In other words, he did do that with the girls occasionally--make advances toward them?

Mrs. CARLIN. Yes.

Mr. JACKSON. Proposition them?

Mrs. CARLIN. Yes; I knew of them going with him.

Mr. JACKSON. Dating them?

Mrs. CARLIN. Yes.

Mr. JACKSON. He did date them some?

Mrs. CARLIN. Yes.

Mr. JACKSON. Did you know or had you heard anything concerning the possibility of any kind of homosexuality on the part of Jack?

Mrs. CARLIN. Yes.

Mr. JACKSON. Is that just a rumor running out there, or what?

Mrs. CARLIN. That was from his mouth. He was always asking the question, “Do you think I am a queer? Do you think I look like a queer? Or have you ever known a queer to look like me?” Every time I saw him he would ask it.

Mr. JACKSON. Do you mean he would bring up the subject himself?

Mrs. CARLIN. Yes; he would say, “Do you think I look like one or act like one?”

Mr. JACKSON. Did he say he was?

Mrs. CARLIN. No; he just asked me, “Do I look like one.”

Mr. JACKSON. But he never admitted to you of being one?

Mrs. CARLIN. No.

Mr. JACKSON. Or ever made any statements that indicated that he was a homosexual?

Mrs. CARLIN. Not to my knowledge.

Mr. JACKSON. What you have told us here is all that you know about his abnormality, if any?

Mrs. CARLIN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Can you throw any light upon his character with respect to whether he had a good temper or easygoing temper or quick temper?

Mrs. CARLIN. He was very quick tempered.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you have occasion to observe that yourself?

Mrs. CARLIN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Could you give us just one or two examples that would serve to illustrate why you have the impression that he was quick tempered.

Mrs. CARLIN. Well, the time that makes me think he was so quick tempered there was two times.

One was with Tammi True. Tammi had--Joy Dale had been out of work for about a week. She had played sick, and this was known all over the club, so Tammi True was supposed to be taking their act. And Joy Dale’s act, making it hard on all of us. So Tammi went to Jack, and I was sitting in the office when she said, “Jack, I am going to be 5 minutes late for my show,” and Jack said, “Okay.” So she went to the back to get dressed, and I went back right after that, and he came back--the music started--he didn’t tell the band like he was supposed to, so the music went ahead and started for Tammi to go on, and that upset her. And Jack came back and said, “What the blank-blank * * *”

Mr. HUBERT. Used some obscene words?

Mrs. CARLIN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. I take it you prefer not to use it yourself?

Mrs. CARLIN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Was it obscene?

Mrs. CARLIN. Yes; and she said, “Well, I had already told you that I was going to be late and you were supposed to let the band know, and you are blaming me.” And Jack said something else like, “Hurry up and get your ass dressed.”

Mr. HUBERT. And there again you used an obscene term which I take it you don’t care to use yourself, in reference to her?

Mrs. CARLIN. Yes; and she then turned around and jumped on him and said, “If you can let Joy Dale hold out a whole week and make all of us suffer, you can damn sure wait on me.” And he said, “You are not going to con me. You may con other people, but you are not going to con me.” And he stormed out of the room. So the following show she was deliberately late, and he came back and raised cane again, and he said something about he was going to fire her if she didn’t straighten up, that she thought she could use him, and that is about all that was said. They kept fussing back and forth and calling each other names.

Mr. HUBERT. I take it from that that his manifestation of temper was first in the use of obscenity, and second in a loud tone of voice?

Mrs. CARLIN. Yes; screaming.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he manifest on that occasion or any occasion that he might use physical force, or did he ever as a matter of fact?

Mrs. CARLIN. No; I never saw him raise his hand to hit anybody or anything like that, although with Tammi, he did say he would throw her down the stairs if she didn’t straighten up. And she said, “I don’t have to leave. I have a contract.” And he said, “That contract don’t mean a God damn thing.”

Mr. JACKSON. You don’t have to use those words.

Mr. HUBERT. I think you said that that was one example. Do you have any others?

Mrs. CARLIN. With Joy Dale.

Mr. HUBERT. Could you tell us about that?

Mrs. CARLIN. It was about the same thing. She had came back to work and was supposed to be pregnant and sick, and she was dying, so she came in, she was late for her first show, and Jack didn’t say anything, and all of us girls were mad and wouldn’t talk to her. So she did her first show, and she was supposed to be hurting bad and she wanted to get out of the second show, and just came back from the week after staying out, and she went to Jack, and you could hear her plumb to the opposite office.

There was a wall, and you could hear her there fussing and cussing because she wanted to take off the second show. And he told her she had been off a week and he couldn’t afford to pay her salary when she wasn’t doing a job at all. And he said, “If you don’t like your job, you know what you could do.”

Mr. HUBERT. Was that an indication that there might have been some relationship between them other than business?

Mrs. CARLIN. Yes. Well, I know it wasn’t hearsay. I know that they were going together, and Joy was using this over his head.

Mr. JACKSON. How do you know this?

Mrs. CARLIN. She told me, and also Jack made indications that he was going with her.

Mr. HUBERT. That she went to his apartment or he went to hers?

Mrs. CARLIN. Only what Joy would tell me, and Joy was a big liar. She was known to lie about things that she had no reason to lie about. She would lie about men making passes just to make the girls ask her questions and be the center of attention, so I wouldn’t say she was telling the truth when she said anything.

Mr. HUBERT. Had you ever met Jack’s sister, Eva Grant?

Mrs. CARLIN. No.

Mr. HUBERT. You know of her?

Mrs. CARLIN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. You never met her?

Mrs. CARLIN. After the President’s killing, I did.

Mr. HUBERT. How did you come to meet her then?

Mrs. CARLIN. She was at the club and she was having an argument with Ralph. I believe it was either Ralph or the other gray-haired guy. I don’t know his name--about the club. That it was her club, she was going to run it, and Ralph was saying he was left in charge of the club, and as long as he was financing the club, she wasn’t going to run it. And there was an argument between her and one of the girls about the fact that she wasn’t going to work for Eva because she had tried to work for Eva and it wouldn’t work.

Mr. HUBERT. Could you tell me something about the gray-haired man other than the one you identified as Ralph Paul?

Mrs. CARLIN. This was a--I don’t know his name. He was in there quite a bit after the President’s killing. He was in there almost every night. He was supposed to be one of Jack’s closest friends or supposed to have lived with Jack.

Mr. HUBERT. That wouldn’t have been Senator, would it?

Mrs. CARLIN. I don’t know.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever hear that perhaps that man was one of his brothers?

Mrs. CARLIN. No. It wasn’t one of his brothers.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember anything further about him?

Mrs. CARLIN. No; I don’t, because I never did talk to him but once, and that was just about then. He was there a lot of times at the door. He took all the cover charges after that. Either him or Ralph was taking cover charges.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he seem to be in authority?

Mrs. CARLIN. No; he didn’t have authority. He thought he did, but he didn’t, because Ralph would tell him to do what was done.

Mr. HUBERT. Had you ever seen him at the Carousel prior to the time that Oswald was shot?

Mrs. CARLIN. Yes. Just two or three times. He was sitting down at a table next to the cashier, where the cash register was. He was sitting there with the guy that Joy Dale was going with. I don’t remember his name, but it was a young boy. Tommy something.

Mr. HUBERT. That is the gray-haired man you saw sitting with a young man called Tommy?

Mrs. CARLIN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Who was Joy Dale’s boy friend?

Mrs. CARLIN. Yes. They were supposed to get married.

Mr. HUBERT. And you saw them, this gray-haired man and Tommy, several times together?

Mrs. CARLIN. About two or three times, I would say.

Mr. HUBERT. How long before the President’s death?

Mrs. CARLIN. Oh, I don’t know. I never did pay that much attention to him.

Mr. HUBERT. Were they always together, those two?

Mrs. CARLIN. I wouldn’t say they were together. He just was sitting there. I don’t know whether they left together or nothing, whether they were friends or not.

Mr. HUBERT. But they were sitting at the same table?

Mrs. CARLIN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. You wouldn’t remember if the two or three times prior to the President’s death that you saw them together were consecutive nights or not, would you?

Mrs. CARLIN. No; I never did pay that much attention to either one of them.

Mr. HUBERT. Would you think those two or three times, whatever they were, that you saw Tommy and the gray-haired man together, would have been within a week prior to the President’s death?

Mrs. CARLIN. I wouldn’t say, because I didn’t pay that much attention.

Mr. HUBERT. But in any case, the gray-haired man that you have been referring to subsequently had really a job with the club? That is to say----

Mrs. CARLIN. No; not at that time, he wasn’t.

Mr. HUBERT. I mean later. I said subsequently.

Mrs. CARLIN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. After Oswald was killed then this same gray-haired man had a job collecting the cover charges at the front door?

Mrs. CARLIN. Whether he was paid for it or not, he was doing it.

Mr. HUBERT. And he seemed to be, so far as you could tell, under the authority of Paul?

Mrs. CARLIN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Ralph?

Mrs. CARLIN. Ralph.

Mr. HUBERT. Ralph Paul?

Mrs. CARLIN. Well, I don’t know anything about Ralph.

Mr. HUBERT. How old a man is Ralph? Are you feeling bad?

Mrs. CARLIN. No. He is about 40 or 45, I would say.

Mr. HUBERT. Ralph Paul is?

Mrs. CARLIN. Yes; between 40 and 45. He is old. He is old to me.

Mr. JACKSON. I think that is the age of the interrogator.

Mrs. CARLIN. I am sorry, but he is old to me. Gray-haired and being so fat.

Mr. JACKSON. The closer you get to it, the younger it is.

Mr. HUBERT. Have you seen Ruby since Oswald was shot?

Mrs. CARLIN. Only in court.

Mr. HUBERT. You testified in court?

Mrs. CARLIN. Two; I went to two different court hearings.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you testify twice or once?

Mrs. CARLIN. Twice.

Mr. HUBERT. Was the first one on the insanity hearing, I suppose?

Mrs. CARLIN. I don’t know what the hearing was on. I think it was on the bond hearing. He was trying to get out on bond.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you testify at his actual trial in the latter part of February and the first part of March?

Mrs. CARLIN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Could you tell us what was the general nature of your testimony there?

Mrs. CARLIN. The same thing that has been asked here.

Mr. HUBERT. Had you been interviewed by Mr. Belli prior?

Mrs. CARLIN. No; the only time I talked to Belli was on the bond hearing.

Mr. HUBERT. But you haven’t talked to Jack Ruby since you talked to him on the phone on Sunday the 24th?

Mrs. CARLIN. I can’t say the last time I talked to him.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you know Billy DeMar?

Mrs. CARLIN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. He was one of the Emcee’s there?

Mrs. CARLIN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Of course, you have heard the rumors that he is supposed to have said that he had seen Oswald in the club prior to the shooting of the President?

Mrs. CARLIN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you see pictures of Oswald afterward?

Mrs. CARLIN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever see anybody who looked like that man in the Carousel?

Mrs. CARLIN. Well, just like I told the FBI, I have seen someone that looked like him. Whether it was him or whether I have seen him, he could favor anybody, you know. I have seen the face, something that looked, someone that looked like him, and I am not going to say it was in the club or where it was at, but I have seen someone that looked like him.

Mr. HUBERT. Of course, you didn’t know Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mrs. CARLIN. No.

Mr. HUBERT. If you get tired, let me know, and we will stop. Let me ask you some concluding questions and we will take a little recess and I will gather my thoughts and see if we have anything more. Have you been interviewed by any member of the Commission’s staff prior to today?

Mrs. CARLIN. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Mrs. Carlin, I have in my hand a document consisting of two pages which purport to be a copy of a report of an interview of you by Special FBI Agents Peggs and Zimmerman on November 26, 1963, which for the purpose of identification I am marking as follows: Fort Worth, Texas, April 15, 1964, Exhibit 5318, Deposition of Karen B. Carlin. Do you spell your name with a “K” or “C”?

Mrs. CARLIN. K-a-r-e-n C-a-r-l-i-n.

Mr. HUBERT. Your first name is spelled with a “K”, but your last name is spelled with a “C”?

Mrs. CARLIN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And I am signing my name below that, for the purpose of identification. On the second page thereof, in the lower right-hand corner I am placing my initials. Mrs. Carlin, I will ask you if you have had an opportunity, with your attorney, Mr. Jackson, to read this statement?

Mrs. CARLIN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Is this statement a fair statement of the interview that you had with the FBI agents?

Mrs. CARLIN. Yes.

Mir. Hubert. Do you see anything in it, and I will ask your attorney to assist you, since he helped you to read it and went over it, do you see anything that needs to be changed, adjusted, or modified?

Mrs. CARLIN. Yes; the part where it says, “Just for rent.”

Mr. HUBERT. You are referring to a sentence in the third paragraph about the middle of that paragraph which reads as follows, to wit: “She called Ruby again on Sunday, November 24, 1963, at 10 or 10:30 a.m., as she needed money to pay her rent.” Now that is the sentence that you are referring to, is that correct?

Mrs. CARLIN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. What comment do you wish to make about it?

Mrs. CARLIN. Well, I didn’t ask him for just money for the rent. It was for groceries also.

Mr. HUBERT. You actually mentioned to him that it was for groceries as well as for rent?

Mrs. CARLIN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, do you have any other parts that you wish to change?

Mrs. CARLIN. Yes; the last sentence in the third paragraph.

Mr. HUBERT. Now you are speaking of the sentence which reads as follows, to wit: “Karen used her Texas driver’s license as identification.” What comments do you wish to make about that, Mrs. Carlin?

Mrs. CARLIN. It was a California driver’s license.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, are there any other parts of that statement which are incorrect or need modification?

Mr. JACKSON. The fourth paragraph, first sentence which reads as follows: “At the time she talked with Ruby, Sunday morning, she asked him if the club was going to be open Sunday night. He became upset regarding this, then talked harshly to her, indicating that he did not feel she was showing the proper respect toward the deceased President.”

Mr. HUBERT. What comment do you wish to make about that sentence?

Mrs. CARLIN. It was not Sunday that he said anything about the President. It was Saturday night that he talked real harshly regarding the President.

Mr. HUBERT. Do I understand you to say then that when you spoke to him on Sunday morning, that the subject of the President was not mentioned at all?

Mrs. CARLIN. That’s right. He just sounded preoccupied and upset.

Mr. JACKSON. That was on Sunday that he sounded preoccupied?

Mrs. CARLIN. Yes; he sounded distant. In other words, I called him back twice.

Mr. HUBERT. You called him back twice on Sunday?

Mrs. CARLIN. Yes; I am talking about when he was talking to me. I would say, “Jack, are you still there?” Or “Jack,” to get his attention back. He seemed like he was busy.

Mr. HUBERT. I gather from that that when you would speak to him on the phone, you didn’t get a response, so it gave you the impression that he wasn’t there?

Mrs. CARLIN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. So you would repeat your question?

Mrs. CARLIN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Are there any other parts of this statement that you would like to make any comments about?

Mrs. CARLIN. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Do I understand that other than the corrections that have been made, that this statement contains the truth, so far as you know it?

Mrs. CARLIN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Is there anything you think should be deleted from it?

Mrs. CARLIN. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Now Mrs. Carlin, is there anything else you would like to say about any aspect that we have been talking about, or any fact that you might know that you have not heretofore stated to anyone?

Mrs. CARLIN. Nothing that I can think of.

Mr. JACKSON. Excuse me just a minute.

(Mr. Jackson and witness whisper to each other.)

Mr. HUBERT. May I see you a minute, Mr. Jackson?

(Mr. Jackson and Mr. Hubert confer off the record.)

Mr. HUBERT. One more question, Mrs. Carlin. Did anyone ask you or suggest to you, directly or indirectly, that you make this call on Sunday morning to Mr. Ruby, or is it that you made this call for the purpose which you have already stated?

Mrs. CARLIN. The purpose of the call was for which I have already stated.

Mr. HUBERT. No one suggested that you make it?

Mrs. CARLIN. Jack told me to call him the following day.

Mr. HUBERT. But other than Jack no one else did?

Mrs. CARLIN. No.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, Ma’am, I think that is all.

Mrs. CARLIN. There is one thing I would like to clear up, what I said a while ago. A while ago you asked me did Jack Ruby make a pass. It was not a pass, it was just asking me. It was not kissing or anything like that.

Mr. HUBERT. I don’t think I asked you that question. I think Mr. Jackson did.

Mr. JACKSON. In other words, he just asked you for a date, is that right?

Mrs. CARLIN. Yes.

Mr. JACKSON. And you refused him?

Mrs. CARLIN. Yes.

Mr. JACKSON. And that is the only time he ever made any advances toward you whatsoever?

Mrs. CARLIN. That’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. Now we have the transportation to take Mrs. Carlin back if she would like to go right away.

Mr. JACKSON. Do you want to go right now?

Mrs. CARLIN. I will wait until Bruce gets through.

Mr. HUBERT. If you want, you can sit right where you are.

Mrs. CARLIN. Okay.

TESTIMONY OF DOYLE E. LANE

The testimony of Doyle E. Lane was taken at 12:05 p.m., on March 31, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr., assistant counsel of the President’s Commission.

Mr. HUBERT. Mr. Lane, my name is Leon Hubert, I am a member of the advisory staff of the General Counsel on the President’s Commission. Under the provisions of Executive Order 11130, dated November 29, 1963, the Joint Resolution of Congress No. 137, and the rules of procedure adopted by the Commission in conformance with the Executive order and the resolution, I am authorized to take a sworn deposition from you, Mr. Lane. I state to you now that the general nature of the Commission’s inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate, and report upon the facts relating to the assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of Lee Harvey Oswald. In particular, as to you, Mr. Lane, the nature of the inquiry today is to determine what facts you know about the death of Oswald and any other pertinent facts you may know about the general inquiry. Particularly the sending of the Western Union telegram. Now, Mr. Lane, you have appeared here today by virtue of a letter sent to you, I believe, by Mr. J. Lee Rankin.

Mr. LANE. That’s correct.

Mr. HUBERT. That letter was received by you prior to 3 days from today, was it not?

Mr. LANE. It was.

Mr. HUBERT. All right. Now, will you stand, sir, and raise your right hand and be sworn. Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. LANE. I do.

Mr. HUBERT. State your full name, please.

Mr. LANE. Doyle E. Lane.

Mr. HUBERT. Your age?

Mr. LANE. Thirty-five.

Mr. HUBERT. Where do you live, sir?

Mr. LANE. Dallas, Tex. 6549 Lake Circle.

Mr. HUBERT. What is your occupation?

Mr. LANE. Clerk, Western Union.

Mr. HUBERT. How long have you been so occupied?

Mr. LANE. Eleven years.

Mr. HUBERT. What particular function do you have, as clerk?

Mr. LANE. Well, I’m a senior delivery clerk is what I am.

Mr. HUBERT. What particular office do you work for?

Mr. LANE. Work for the office at 2034 Main, Dallas, Tex.

Mr. HUBERT. Is that the main office of the Western Union here?

Mr. LANE. Yes; it is.

Mr. HUBERT. Were you on duty on the morning of November 24, 1963?

Mr. LANE. Yes; I was.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you see a man by the name of Jack Ruby that day?

Mr. LANE. Yes; I did.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you know him prior to that time?

Mr. LANE. I had known him through patronage.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, when he came into the Western Union office that day you recognized him as Jack Ruby, a man with whom you had done Western Union telegraph business?

Mr. LANE. When he handed me the money order. I did not see him come in. I do not know when he came in.

Mr. HUBERT. Will you just state in your own words what transpired between you and Jack Ruby on the morning of November 24, 1963?

Mr. LANE. Well, he came to the counter and handed me the money order to be sent. I rated the money order and put the necessary transmission marks on it. Wrote out a receipt for the money he handed me and I believe it was $30, to pay for the money order. I handed him back his receipt and his change. He turned around and walked out the door.

Mr. HUBERT. The first time you saw him, therefore, is when he came up to the counter with a completed--partially completed form for the transmission of money by Western Union?

Mr. LANE. That is the first I had seen him that day.

Mr. HUBERT. Therefore, you don’t know how long he was in the office?

Mr. LANE. I have no idea.

Mr. HUBERT. Prior to the time he came up.

Mr. LANE. I have no idea.

Mr. HUBERT. Is there a public telephone available to anyone who is in the lobby?

Mr. LANE. Yes, there is.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you see him use the telephone?

Mr. LANE. I did not.

Mr. HUBERT. On that morning, was there any kind of radio, or TV in the Western Union office, whereby a person in that office could have heard the news concerning the pending transfer of Oswald from the city hall to the county jail?

Mr. LANE. Not in the office; no.

Mr. HUBERT. No one had a small radio or transistor?

Mr. LANE. The messenger boy had a transistor, but he was out delivering, and he did not get back until 10 or 15 minutes after that.

Mr. HUBERT. There was no radio or television audible or visible to anyone in the Western Union office at the time Jack Ruby was there?

Mr. LANE. No, there was not.

Mr. HUBERT. Mr. Lane, I am marking two documents, which have already been identified by Mr. W. W. Semingsen, president--vice president of the Western Union Telegram Co., when his deposition was taken by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, a member of the staff of the President’s Commission. On the first document I have marked “Dallas, Texas, March 31, 1964. Exhibit 5118, Deposition of Doyle Lane.” I have placed my name under this language. It purports to be a photostatic copy of the original which Mr. Semingsen produced at his deposition. In order that the record may show that you and I are both talking about the same document, I ask you to put your name below mine on this document. Now, I am marking the other document as follows: “Dallas, Texas, March 31, 1964. Exhibit 5119, Deposition of Doyle Lane,” and signing my name on that, and ask you to put your name on it so that the record may show that we are talking about the same document. Now, I ask you to look at Exhibit 5118, and state for the record what that document is.

Mr. LANE. This is a money order application filed to send money. $25. Karen Bennett, Fort Worth, Tex., from Jack Ruby.

Mr. HUBERT. I notice that there are several handwritings on that, and, of course, you will identify your own in a moment. Can you state for the record what handwriting was on that, or what was on that document at the time it was handed to you by Ruby?

Mr. LANE. “25.00 Karen Bennett. Will call. Fort Worth. Jack Ruby.”

Mr. HUBERT. That all seems to be printed?

Mr. LANE. That is printed; yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you see Ruby write it out?

Mr. LANE. No; I did not.

Mr. HUBERT. But he did hand it to you in that form?

Mr. LANE. He did.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he give you money at the same time?

Mr. LANE. Yes, sir; he did.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember how much?

Mr. LANE. $30.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall whether he took it out of his wallet, or a roll of money, or what?

Mr. LANE. He took it from several bills in his hand.

Mr. HUBERT. What denominations were the bills that he handed to you?

Mr. LANE. A $20 and a $10 bill.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, would you state what you did with reference to this transaction?

Mr. LANE. You mean my markings?

Mr. HUBERT. Your markings and your actions, yes.

Mr. LANE. Well, when he handed me this I rated the money order.

Mr. HUBERT. You did what?

Mr. LANE. The charges.

Mr. HUBERT. Rated, [spelling] R-a-t-e-d?

Mr. LANE. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. What does “rated” mean?

Mr. LANE. It is actual money order charges that we charge to transmit this money to its destination.

Mr. HUBERT. Is that rating process indicated by you on that Exhibit 5118?

Mr. LANE. Yes; it is.

Mr. HUBERT. Where?

Mr. LANE. In that top right-hand corner.

Mr. HUBERT. Whose handwriting is that in?

Mr. LANE. That is my handwriting.

Mr. HUBERT. What figures are you talking about?

Mr. LANE. “$25.55, the $1.20, and 12 cents tax. $26.87.”

Mr. HUBERT. So, you did give him change?

Mr. LANE. Yes; I did.

Mr. HUBERT. I notice that in the printed message there are the words, “Fort Worth,” scratched out, and something, who wrote that?

Mr. LANE. I wrote that. It was spelled wrong to begin with, and I wrote that for this purpose. We have to have a full destination in the body of a money order. He just used Fort Worth.

Mr. HUBERT. So, that you scratched out the “F.” W-o-r-t-h, and then wrote in your own handwriting Fort Worth, Tex.?

Mr. LANE. Fort Worth, Tex.

Mr. HUBERT. And you identify your own handwriting, sir?

Mr. LANE. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. I notice in the bottom right-hand corner of Exhibit 5118, the words and figures as follows: “1312½ Commerce.” Whose handwriting is that?

Mr. LANE. It is mine.

Mr. HUBERT. Where did you get the information?

Mr. LANE. From Mr. Ruby.

Mr. HUBERT. You asked him?

Mr. LANE. I said, “Your address?” And he gave me his address.

Mr. HUBERT. I notice that there apparently is a time stamp on the top of this document that says, “1963, November 24, a.m. 11:17.” Would you explain what that is?

Mr. LANE. That is the time that money order was accepted for transmission at the counter.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, explain when and how that stamp is placed--placed upon that document?

Mr. LANE. This stamp was placed here when I handed Mr. Ruby back his receipt for his money and his change, because in our language that is the--accepting a money order for transmission at that time.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, that was not stamped when Mr. Ruby first came to begin the transaction?

Mr. LANE. No; it was not.

Mr. HUBERT. It was required that you do what you said you have done concerning the document, to make the correction about “Fort Worth,” to do the rating?

Mr. LANE. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. And did you write out the address at the bottom?

Mr. LANE. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And to make the change and give it to him?

Mr. LANE. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, the 11:17, therefore, represents the moment when the transaction was over?

Mr. LANE. When it is completed.

Mr. HUBERT. And actually, it could have begun a few moments or minutes before?

Mr. LANE. A minute or so.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, I wish you to explain for the record what kind of a timeclock this is. And what steps are taken by the Western Union Co. locally and nationally to assure the accuracy of that timeclock?

Mr. LANE. This timeclock is set up on a national level. Hooked up with the U.S. Naval Observatory in Washington, D.C. And at 11 a.m., each day, all clocks stop and all time is synchronized. The timeclock we have on the counter rotates on a minute basis. It could be 1 minute, you know, either way. I think back----

Mr. HUBERT. Well, now, the particular timeclock that was used to stamp this machine, is that the master clock--I mean to stamp this document, is this the master clock?

Mr. LANE. No; it is not.

Mr. HUBERT. What clock is synchronized to Naval Observatory Time?

Mr. LANE. It is the clock in the P&R office, there for the purpose of having somebody to check it and make sure it is accurate.

Mr. HUBERT. Is it the custom of the company to have all of the master clocks throughout the Nation synchronized each day at 11 o’clock?

Mr. LANE. It is. It very definitely is. Our business is built on the time basis.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, how is the particular timeclock which was used to stamp the time on Exhibit 5118 synchronized to the master clock in Dallas?

Mr. LANE. When the master clock is set by the Naval Observatory Time, at the same time our master clock here synchronizes all our timeclocks.

Mr. HUBERT. Is that done automatically?