Chapter XIX: Part 19

Mr. HUBERT. You saw him do it yourself?

Mr. REEVES. No; I stayed out at the garage, but I heard the boy say, “I’m going to get a gun and kill Jack Ruby,” and he said it real down low, and when Jack came down, I didn’t want Jack to get killed, and I said, “Go back there and hide. That boy said he was going to kill you.” Instead of hiding like I told Jack, Jack reached back up in his car and got his six-shooter out and went up to this whisky store and tapped him with his gun like that [indicating].

Mr. HUBERT. When was that?

Mr. REEVES. It was when he went up to the store and I seen the big guy come out across there.

Mr. HUBERT. How long ago was that?

Mr. REEVES. It has been probably 5 or 6 months--I wouldn’t say for sure.

Mr. HUBERT. Did the police come?

Mr. REEVES. No, sir. Oh, yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Did anybody arrest Jack Ruby?

Mr. REEVES. He didn’t bother Jack.

Mr. HUBERT. How old a man is this boy--this Jewish boy Jack was supposed to have hit?

Mr. REEVES. He looked like 30 years old or something like that.

Mr. HUBERT. Where is the liquor store?

Mr. REEVES. It’s right up there on the corner. I believe I may have the address here in my pocket--it’s the first one on the corner--Segal’s--I believe.

Mr. HUBERT. What corner is it on?

Mr. REEVES. It’s on the corner of Akard and Commerce--that’s it.

Mr. HUBERT. What time of night did this happen?

Mr. REEVES. It was probably--I don’t remember just exactly, probably about 10:30, 9:30 or 10:30, something like that.

Mr. HUBERT. Did Jack Ruby come back right away after that?

Mr. REEVES. Yes, he came back to his place, I think.

Mr. HUBERT. Right away?

Mr. REEVES. It wasn’t too long.

Mr. HUBERT. It wasn’t too long?

Mr. REEVES. No, it wasn’t too long.

Mr. HUBERT. Was he arrested?

Mr. REEVES. I don’t think so.

Mr. HUBERT. Was the other man arrested?

Mr. REEVES. I don’t think they arrested him neither. I think they carried him to the hospital in an ambulance.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you see the ambulance?

Mr. REEVES. Yes, I heard the ambulance come after him and after he did that, he come back and worked for Jack. Jack buddied up with him again, Jack was a good-hearted kind of a fellow, and he came back and worked for him some more, and went away. I never did learn his name, but some of them said he lived in Houston.

Mr. HUBERT. You think that was about 6 months ago from now?

Mr. REEVES. Yes, I wouldn’t say for sure--it’s either--might have been 3 or 4 months.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, now, we are now in March, you know.

Mr. REEVES. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. So, if you say 6 months----

Mr. REEVES. It seems to me like it might have been over 4 months--4 or 5 months--I don’t know for sure.

Mr. HUBERT. You think it was in October or November of 1963?

Mr. REEVES. Let’s see, it must have been in about September.

Mr. HUBERT. September 1963?

Mr. REEVES. I wouldn’t say for sure now, but it was, all I know is I just remember being--it scared me, you know. I was scared, you know, I didn’t want Jack--some kind of unknown guy to come along and kill him, a guy just working for him, and I heard him say it, and I told Jack. What I wanted Jack to do was go back there and hide until the boy got in a good humor, you see.

Jack Ruby--seemed--he was always a nice fellow to me and I wasn’t thinking about him being rough enough to do something like that. I really wasn’t, because I never thought no more about Jack Ruby coming around in the garage, coming in my office around there talking to me--he came around a lot of times late at night. He maybe would stop by and say a few words and he treated me just like a baby. He would bring me sandwiches and things like that and I figured he was just a nice fellow, you know, is all I could figure out.

Now, he had a good many--I don’t remember--it seems to me like he had several more. If there was anybody that came into town that was broke and Jack knew it, he would take them in and get them some clothes and feed them and give them some money.

Mr. HUBERT. How do you know all that?

Mr. REEVES. Well, I would see him doing it. Whether the guy was all right, I don’t know. They was strangers to me. I was working for the Allright Co., worked 12 hours a night and have been for 2 or 3 years and I was just seeing things--seeing people doing it and I thought he was running a legitimate place. I knew I was running a perfect place, the parking system, and we’ve got lots of customers, and you know, people parking in our place, going up to his club, parking in there.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, Mr. Reeves, is there anything else you know about this--any other facts that might throw some light on the assassination of President Kennedy or the shooting of Lee Oswald?

Mr. REEVES. Nothing that I know of, because I didn’t know Oswald. If I ever seen him, I don’t remember. The only thing, after I seen his picture in the newspapers and come out on the television with the pictures and all, it seemed like his face got familiar, but I never seen him before that I know of.

Mr. HUBERT. You say you have seen pictures of Oswald in the paper and all that?

Mr. REEVES. That’s right, and on television.

Mr. HUBERT. So that you formed the impression that maybe you had seen him before?

Mr. REEVES. No, sir--well, it does seem like, you know, he got familiar as I seen him on television and in the paper, but as far as seeing him before, I mean before that happened, I don’t think I ever did see him.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you think he has any resemblance, does he look like this man Larry Crafard, this man I just showed you a picture of?

Mr. REEVES. Well, I don’t think he favors him any--seeing him in the pictures, but I wouldn’t think so--no, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Have you ever been interviewed by any members of the Commission staff?

Mr. REEVES. By an FBI man.

Mr. HUBERT. But, you haven’t been interviewed by me?

Mr. REEVES. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Before this deposition this morning?

Mr. REEVES. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Thank you very, very much, Mr. Reeves.

Mr. REEVES. I’m sure glad to tell facts if I knew anything, I would just be glad to help, because I would be glad to help, because President Kennedy was one of my best friends. I liked him better than any man on earth--I sure did.

Mr. HUBERT. Thank you very much, Mr. Reeves, for coming.

Mr. REEVES. Sure glad to.

Mr. HUBERT. Thank you, that’s all.

TESTIMONY OF WARREN E. RICHEY

The testimony of Warren E. Richey was taken at 1:30 p.m., on April 15, 1964, at the Post Office Building, Fort Worth, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr., assistant counsel of the President’s Commission.

Mr. HUBERT. Mr. Richey, I have to read some formalities here. My name is Leon Hubert. I am a member of the advisory staff of the General Counsel of the President’s Commission. Under the provisions of President Johnson’s Executive Order 11130, dated November 29, 1963, the joint resolution of Congress No. 137, and the rules of procedure adopted by the Commission, in conformance with that Executive order and that joint resolution, I have been authorized to take a sworn deposition from you, Mr. Richey.

I state to you now that the general nature of the Commission’s inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate, and report upon the facts relative to the assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of Lee Harvey Oswald. In particular, as to you, Mr. Richey, the nature of the inquiry today is to determine what facts you know about the death of Oswald and any other pertinent facts you may know about the general inquiry and particularly whether a man known as Jack Ruby was seen by you near the Dallas Police Department on November 24, 1963.

Now, Mr. Richey, I think you have appeared here by virtue of a letter addressed to you by Mr. J. Lee Rankin, General Counsel, for the President’s Commission. Did you receive that letter more than 3 days ago?

Mr. RICHEY. I did.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, sir, would you please be sworn. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give in this matter will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. RICHEY. I do.

Mr. HUBERT. Will you please state your name.

Mr. RICHEY. Warren E. Richey.

Mr. HUBERT. And your age?

Mr. RICHEY. 40.

Mr. HUBERT. Where do you live, sir?

Mr. RICHEY. 1600 Grantland Circle.

Mr. HUBERT. Fort Worth?

Mr. RICHEY. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. What is your occupation?

Mr. RICHEY. TV engineer.

Mr. HUBERT. What station?

Mr. RICHEY. WBAP-TV.

Mr. HUBERT. How long have you been so occupied?

Mr. RICHEY. Thirteen years.

Mr. HUBERT. What is the function in general of a TV engineer?

Mr. RICHEY. Well, it is all phases of operation of TV equipment.

Mr. HUBERT. Were you on duty with the remote truck of WBAP-TV in Dallas on November 23 and 24?

Mr. RICHEY. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Where was the truck parked?

Mr. RICHEY. It was parked on Commerce Street facing east.

Mr. HUBERT. That is to say, facing what street? Pearl or North Express?

Mr. RICHEY. I don’t know really. It was on the left-hand side of the street facing east, right in front of the city hall, or whatever it is.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know where Harwood Street is?

Mr. RICHEY. Harwood? No, sir; I am not very familiar with the streets.

Mr. HUBERT. How far away from the corner was the back of your truck?

Mr. RICHEY. Oh, I would say 40 or 50 feet, approximately. I don’t know.

Mr. HUBERT. How much room was there between the front of the truck and the street curbing forming part of the entrance or exit from the police department into Commerce Street?

Mr. RICHEY. Oh, 15 or 20 feet, I imagine. It wasn’t too far.

Mr. HUBERT. Were you on duty on the 23d of November? That is to say, Saturday, November 23, 1963?

Mr. RICHEY. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Was the position of the truck that you have just described different on the 24th than that which you have described?

Mr. RICHEY. No, sir; it was moved in and left.

Mr. HUBERT. Stayed there both days?

Mr. RICHEY. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. What hours were you on duty on the 23d? That is to say, Saturday?

Mr. RICHEY. I don’t remember exactly what time we got over there. I think we had a 6 o’clock call from here, from Fort Worth.

Mr. HUBERT. Six in the morning?

Mr. RICHEY. Yes. And I think we would have pictures by 8 o’clock, so I would say we were there somewhere around 6:30, I imagine.

Mr. HUBERT. How long did you stay there?

Mr. RICHEY. It was till late that night. I am not sure of the time. I believe it was around 8 or 9 o’clock, that night, but I am not sure.

Mr. HUBERT. When you went home, you left the equipment where it was?

Mr. RICHEY. That was on Saturday; yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. What time did you go back to work on Sunday, the 24th?

Mr. RICHEY. Sunday, I think I’m mixed up here. Sunday was the morning we had a 6 o’clock call. Saturday morning is the day we moved in early. We had a 1 o’clock call.

Mr. HUBERT. One o’clock?

Mr. RICHEY. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. So you worked from 1 in the morning until about 8 Saturday night?

Mr. RICHEY. It was rather not that Saturday night. We got back about 6:30 on Sunday morning. Saturday night is the night we stayed late.

Mr. HUBERT. Now prior to the 23d, or the 24th, did you know a man by the name of Jack Ruby?

Mr. RICHEY. No; I never heard of him.

Mr. HUBERT. Never seen him before?

Mr. RICHEY. Never heard of him.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you see Jack Ruby or a man that you have now come to believe was Jack Ruby or know was Jack Ruby on the 23d or the 24th?

Mr. RICHEY. Not on the 23d, but on the 24th, that would be Sunday, yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Now would you tell us about that.

Mr. RICHEY. Well, the man that I think was him and I am positive, pretty sure in my own mind it was, he was just out on the street alongside the truck in front of the building, the city court building.

Mr. HUBERT. Was he in the street in the sense that the place where the automobiles were, or on the sidewalk alongside the building? On the left side of the truck then?

Mr. RICHEY. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Between the left side of the truck and the building?

Mr. RICHEY. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Where were you?

Mr. RICHEY. I was on top of the truck with a camera.

Mr. HUBERT. Tell us what happened.

Mr. RICHEY. Well, the time that I saw him was, I would say, in the neighborhood of 8 o’clock in the morning.

Mr. HUBERT. Is there any way you fix the time?

Mr. RICHEY. Not definitely, because we were busy lining up cameras, and I didn’t really pay much attention to the time, but I would say it was somewhere in that neighborhood.

Mr. HUBERT. What happened between the two of you?

Mr. RICHEY. Nothing, as far as I was concerned. I just saw him out there.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you hear him say anything?

Mr. RICHEY. No, sir; I never did hear him say anything, because it was cold and I had a coat pulled up over my ears.

Mr. HUBERT. How was he dressed?

Mr. RICHEY. He had on a sort of grayish topcoat and sort of a gray-looking hat, and he didn’t look like, you know, he didn’t look very neatly dressed.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he have a tie on?

Mr. RICHEY. I don’t recall.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he have an overcoat?

Mr. RICHEY. Topcoat; overcoat.

Mr. HUBERT. You think that was about 8 o’clock, in the morning?

Mr. RICHEY. The first time I saw him was somewhere in the neighborhood of 8 o’clock. I am not positive.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember how long he stood around there?

Mr. RICHEY. Well, I saw him again sometime, I would say, around 10 or a little before 10, and he was down past the ramp this time that goes into the building--basement.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you mean he was down past in the sense that he had progressed ahead of the front of your truck?

Mr. RICHEY. Yes, sir; he was down.

Mr. HUBERT. The Commerce Street entrance was between your truck and him?

Mr. RICHEY. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Is there anything that drew your attention to him then?

Mr. RICHEY. No; not really.

Mr. HUBERT. Was he dressed in the same way?

Mr. RICHEY. At this time he was still dressed the same way. That was the last time I saw him.

Mr. HUBERT. Those two occasions were roughly separated by about 2 hours, you think?

Mr. RICHEY. Somewhere around there; yes.

Mr. HUBERT. You didn’t know it was Jack Ruby?

Mr. RICHEY. No; I had no idea. I just thought he was a newsman, because there were several out there walking around, and they moved the people across the street, and he was one of the few that was left.

This person was one of the few that was left out there, and that is one reason I thought he was a newsman, because they weren’t bothering the newsmen.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you see him talk to any of the police that were stationed along there?

Mr. RICHEY. No, sir; I didn’t see him talk to anyone.

Mr. HUBERT. You said that the second time was about 10 o’clock?

Mr. RICHEY. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Is there any way in which you fix that time?

Mr. RICHEY. No, sir; not really. Well, it was about the time that we thought they were to bring Oswald out. I think they told us it would be about 10 o’clock. It was in that time period that we were sort of looking for them to bring him out.

Mr. HUBERT. Judging from the time that Oswald was actually shot or measuring from that time backward, could you tell us how long it was from the time Oswald was shot, backward until you saw Ruby; or to put it another way, how much time elapsed from the last time you saw Ruby until Oswald was shot?

Mr. RICHEY. It was an hour or better.

Mr. HUBERT. Now can you tell us when was the very first time you associated that man that you have just described as having seen at 8 o’clock and again at 10, or a little better, with Jack Ruby?

Mr. RICHEY. It was that night when I saw the rerun of the tape that was made. And when I saw him, it looked like the same man that was dressed differently, to me.

Mr. HUBERT. Now did the reruns show his face?

Mr. RICHEY. Not too good.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever see any mug shots?

Mr. RICHEY. I saw still shots.

Mr. HUBERT. When did you see those?

Mr. RICHEY. The next day, I believe; whenever the papers came out. It was the pictures in the Dallas Herald, I believe, the big full-page picture.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know Ira N. Walker?

Mr. RICHEY. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Was he on duty on the same truck with you that day?

Mr. RICHEY. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And I think Mr.----

Mr. RICHEY. Johnny Smith.

Mr. HUBERT. Johnny Smith was too?

Mr. RICHEY. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall being in the company of them and seeing mug shots relatively shortly after the shooting of Oswald on TV?

Mr. RICHEY. No, sir; I didn’t see those. They were in the truck where they could see the pictures, but I was out on top of the truck.

Mr. HUBERT. Were you aware that they had seen the Ruby mug shots and had associated them with the man that they had seen?

Mr. RICHEY. I don’t know. I don’t believe.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, when you saw the rerun, you independently reached the opinion that it was Jack Ruby?

Mr. RICHEY. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. It was not suggested to you by the fact that Walker and Smith had seen mug shots right after the shooting?

Mr. RICHEY. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. You didn’t know that they had seen the shots?

Mr. RICHEY. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Now have you seen Jack Ruby since?

Mr. RICHEY. Not in person; no, sir. I have seen pictures, newsreels, but I haven’t seen him actually.

Mr. HUBERT. You have seen pictures of him in the newspapers?

Mr. RICHEY. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Newsreel films?

Mr. RICHEY. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. What is your opinion now as to whether or not the man that you have described that you saw twice on November 24, at about 8 and then again about 10 on Commerce Street is or is not the man that you now know from having seen pictures and so forth, as Jack Ruby?

Mr. RICHEY. I still believe that it is the same man.

Mr. HUBERT. You were not asked by the State to testify in the case?

Mr. RICHEY. No, sir; they came and talked to Johnny and Walker and myself but they never did call me.

Mr. HUBERT. What is your opinion as to your identification of the man on the street and Jack Ruby as being the same man relative to your identification of him on the reruns as opposed to your identification of him from the still photos and other pictures that you have seen of him thereafter?

What I am trying to get at is, which one of the subsequent views you had of Jack Ruby is stronger in your mind with reference to identifying the man that you saw in the street?

Mr. RICHEY. The still pictures, except for the difference in clothes. The clothes in the still pictures look different from the ones that this person had on that I saw, but I would say the still pictures looked more like him.

Mr. HUBERT. Nevertheless, it is a fact, that when you saw the reruns on the night of the 24th, at that time you had an impression that it was the same man?

Mr. RICHEY. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Was that a spontaneous thing?

Mr. RICHEY. Yes; when I saw it.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you say anything to anybody?

Mr. RICHEY. My wife, I believe, because we were watching the news.

Mr. HUBERT. You didn’t report it?

Mr. RICHEY. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Mr. Richey, I have in hand here a document which purports to be a report of an interview of you by FBI Agents Haley and Madland on December 4, 1963, which I have marked for identification as follows: “Fort Worth, Texas, April 15, 1964, Exhibit 5316, deposition of Warren E. Richey,” and I have signed my name on it.

I would like you to read the statement first, sir.

Mr. RICHEY. [Reads statement.]

Mr. HUBERT. Now, sir, you have read this document that I have identified as Exhibit 5316, and I will ask you if it substantially represents the truth as to the interview between you and the Federal agents, or if you have any deletions, corrections, or any amendments to make about it?

Mr. RICHEY. I would say it was all approximately right.

Mr. HUBERT. I invite your attention to the fact that this Exhibit 5316, states that the time----

Mr. RICHEY. The time is different on there, but I tell you there has been a lot happened since then that I couldn’t be too exact on the time, really, because this was just, I don’t know, wasn’t too long after this all happened.

Mr. HUBERT. For example, this statement mentions that you saw him about 9 o’clock and apparently doesn’t cover what you testified to. That is to say, that you really saw him twice?

Mr. RICHEY. Well, I actually didn’t see him twice. This was a period of time really from approximately 8 or somewhere in there up until about 10 o’clock. He wasn’t there early. That wasn’t what I meant.

Mr. HUBERT. Let’s get that straight. You saw him only once; is that correct? Or twice?

Mr. RICHEY. Well, I saw him--I don’t know how to put it. It was a period of time I saw him, between this time, probably several times walked down the sidewalk.

Mr. HUBERT. He walked actually between the truck and the sidewalk side of the building?

Mr. RICHEY. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Then at one time you have a mental impression of having seen him beyond the Commerce Street ramp?

Mr. RICHEY. Yes, sir; from the corner. I don’t even remember what street. It runs in front of the court building back of the truck. But he was within that area from that street up beyond the ramp. But this last time I saw him was at the ramp. But he was in between there several times that morning.

Mr. HUBERT. Between 8?

Mr. RICHEY. And 10 o’clock.

Mr. HUBERT. But you think that the very last time that you saw him----

Mr. RICHEY. Was around 10 o’clock.

Mr. HUBERT. What fixes 10 in your mind?

Mr. RICHEY. Like I say, it was about the time they were expecting them to bring Oswald down in the building. That was when the chief of police told us they would be bringing him out, and we were looking for him, because I was up there on a camera, with a camera on the ramp.

Mr. HUBERT. Had you gotten any kind of alert standby?

Mr. RICHEY. No, sir. There was no alert of any kind. It was just the time that they had given us the night before, actually.

Mr. HUBERT. Anyhow, you say that your recollection is that the last time you saw him, which was when you saw him beyond the Commerce Street ramp, was approximately an hour or a little better from the actual shooting?

Mr. RICHEY. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. That is the last time you remember seeing him?

Mr. RICHEY. That was the end of it.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he seem at that time to be walking away from your truck?

Mr. RICHEY. No, sir; he was standing.

Mr. HUBERT. He was just standing?

Mr. RICHEY. He was standing.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you see any police near him?

Mr. RICHEY. No, sir; not near him. They had one policeman out on the ramp.

Mr. HUBERT. But when you saw him, it was after all the crowd had been moved over?

Mr. RICHEY. They were across the street.

Mr. HUBERT. From the side of the street where your truck was, to the opposite side of Commerce Street?

Mr. RICHEY. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Were there many other people like this man walking around in that area?

Mr. RICHEY. There was just occasionally newsmen, because they were congregating in the basement and they would come by.

Mr. HUBERT. But this man whom you have identified as Jack Ruby; did he have any kind of paper or press badge which you observed in the nature of a press badge?

Mr. RICHEY. No, sir; not that I saw, because there was a lot of newsmen that didn’t have passes. Some of our crew didn’t even have passes, WBAP.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember when the armored truck pulled in there?

Mr. RICHEY. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Was that before or after the last time you saw the man you have identified as Jack Ruby?

Mr. RICHEY. I believe that was the--I believe the armored truck pulled in after I saw him the last time, because there was one pulled in and backed in, and the other one parked on the street.

Mr. HUBERT. You think that the last time you saw Ruby was before?

Mr. RICHEY. Before any of that happened?

Mr. HUBERT. Before any of that happened.

Mr. RICHEY. Yes, sir; I believe it was.

Mr. HUBERT. All right; Mr. Richey, have you been interviewed by any member of the President’s Commission prior to this occasion?

Mr. RICHEY. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Have you anything else to say in any way?

Mr. RICHEY. No, sir; I don’t know of anything.

Mr. HUBERT. I think you said that you really didn’t hear Ruby say anything?

Mr. RICHEY. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. I notice that this statement which has been identified as 5316--let me ask you: You were interviewed by the FBI?

Mr. RICHEY. Yes, sir; that was 2 or 3 days, I believe, after.

Mr. HUBERT. You were interviewed at the same time as Mr. Walker and Mr. Smith?

Mr. RICHEY. Yes; and there were some others.

Mr. HUBERT. Was that an individual interview?

Mr. RICHEY. Not in our case. We were all together in the studio of WBAP.

Mr. HUBERT. You weren’t taken aside separately and individually?

Mr. RICHEY. Not when the FBI talked to us.

Mr. HUBERT. Each of you gave your story and the FBI agents made notes?

Mr. RICHEY. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he ever ask you to check the notes or any draft?

Mr. RICHEY. No, sir; I have never heard or seen them since.

Mr. HUBERT. You were on duty with the truck during the day of Saturday, November 23?

Mr. RICHEY. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Would it be possible that the man you saw and identified as Jack Ruby would have been seen by you on the 23d rather than the 24th?

Mr. RICHEY. No, sir; I don’t recall seeing anyone that even looked like him on the 23d. That one morning is the only morning that I recall seeing anyone that even looked like him.

Mr. HUBERT. On the 24th, I think you testified the crowd had been moved over on the other side of the street?

Mr. RICHEY. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Had that been done on the 23d?

Mr. RICHEY. No, sir; no one bothered. There weren’t too many around on the 23d. Mostly newsmen was all that was around on the 23d. There wasn’t any crowd, really, but they started congregating on Sunday morning on both sides of the ramp.

Mr. HUBERT. It was after they had begun to congregate that you saw this man you have identified as Jack Ruby?

Mr. RICHEY. Yes, sir; and then they moved the other people across, and I still saw him after they moved the other people across the street.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, sir. Thank you very much.

TESTIMONY OF MALCOLM R. SLAUGHTER

The testimony of Malcolm R. Slaughter was taken at 7:30 p.m., on April 16, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr., assistant counsel of the President’s Commission.

Mr. HUBERT. Mr. Slaughter, my name is Leon Hubert. I am a member of the advisory staff of the General Counsel of President Johnson’s Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy. Under the provisions of Executive Order 11130, dated November 29, 1963, and Joint Resolution of Congress No. 137, and the rules of procedure adopted by the Commission in accordance with the Executive order and the joint resolution of Congress, I have been authorized to take a sworn deposition from you.

I state to you now that the general nature of the Commission’s inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate, and report upon the facts relating to the assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of Lee Harvey Oswald. In particular as to you, Mr. Slaughter, the nature of the inquiry tonight is to determine what facts you know about the death of Oswald and any other pertinent facts you may know about the general inquiry, and particularly what you may know about Jack Ruby and his whereabouts and movements on Sunday, November 24.

Mr. Slaughter, normally the witnesses are required to come before the Commission by a written letter or notice in writing sent to them by a member of the Commission or the general counsel, Mr. J. Lee Rankin. I have such a letter in my possession, but we have been unable to get it to you on account of your work.

Mr. SLAUGHTER. I have the letter.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you get it over 3 days ago?

Mr. SLAUGHTER. I got it; I got it last Friday.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, that’s fine. Then, it is over 3 days ago. Now, would you stand and take the oath, please? Do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give before the Commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. SLAUGHTER. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Will you state your name, please?

Mr. SLAUGHTER. Malcolm R. Slaughter.

Mr. HUBERT. Your age?

Mr. SLAUGHTER. Forty-four.

Mr. HUBERT. Your residence?

Mr. SLAUGHTER. 5638 Ridgeway Drive, Houston, Tex.

Mr. HUBERT. What is your occupation, Mr. Slaughter?

Mr. SLAUGHTER. Line driver.

Mr. HUBERT. For what company?

Mr. SLAUGHTER. For Red Ball Motor Freight.

Mr. HUBERT. How long have you been so employed?

Mr. SLAUGHTER. Eight years.

Mr. HUBERT. You are a family man?

Mr. SLAUGHTER. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. So you have a wife and children?

Mr. SLAUGHTER. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. I understand that tonight you are en route from one point to another?

Mr. SLAUGHTER. That’s correct.

Mr. HUBERT. I think that during last fall you and at least one other of your friends or fellow drivers of trucks rented an apartment as a stopoff or sleeping place here in Dallas; is that correct?

Mr. SLAUGHTER. We were domiciled in Dallas at that time.

Mr. HUBERT. You were?

Mr. SLAUGHTER. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Would you tell us where this apartment was located?

Mr. SLAUGHTER. In the Oak Cliff section of Dallas--223 South Ewing.

Mr. HUBERT. What apartment did you have?

Mr. SLAUGHTER. Apartment 204.

Mr. HUBERT. Who else shared that apartment with you?

Mr. SLAUGHTER. Jack Scritchfield [spelling] S-c-r-i-t-c-h-f-i-e-l-d, and Sidney Evans.

Mr. HUBERT. You don’t have that apartment any more, I take it?

Mr. SLAUGHTER. No, sir; I vacated March 1.

Mr. HUBERT. When did you first occupy the apartment?

Mr. SLAUGHTER. October 30, 1963.

Mr. HUBERT. And how often were you there between that date and November 24, 1963?

Mr. SLAUGHTER. You say--how often?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes, sir--I mean--did you live there or were you on the road a great deal of the time?

Mr. SLAUGHTER. We maintained our homes in Houston but due to the fact we drove out of Dallas, Tex., off of the pool board in Dallas, we had to maintain a residence in Dallas. That’s why the three of us split costs and rented this apartment.

Mr. HUBERT. What I wanted to get at--we are talking about a period of approximately 24 or 25 days, from October 31, I think you said, until November 24, and I was just wondering how many of those nights or days you were on the road and didn’t occupy the apartment?

Mr. SLAUGHTER. Well, I have logs to substantiate it--I can’t give you the exact figure.

Mr. HUBERT. No, sir--just approximately.

Mr. SLAUGHTER. In and out--every time I was in Dallas I stayed there.

Mr. HUBERT. That would be how often, roughly?

Mr. SLAUGHTER. It could be every night--every third night, and most generally always on weekends.

Mr. HUBERT. And when you did stay in that apartment it would be during the daytime, sometimes?

Mr. SLAUGHTER. Yes, sir--mostly in the daytime.

Mr. HUBERT. And mostly on Sundays and Saturdays?

Mr. SLAUGHTER. On weekends.

Mr. HUBERT. On weekends?

Mr. SLAUGHTER. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever get to meet a man by the name of Jack Ruby who occupied an apartment in that same building?

Mr. SLAUGHTER. Not personally.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you see him prior to November 24, 1963?

Mr. SLAUGHTER. I would say possibly two or three times in passing, only.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever converse with him?

Mr. SLAUGHTER. No, sir; only to say “hello” or some such greeting as that.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you know his name at that time?

Mr. SLAUGHTER. No, sir--not at that time.

Mr. HUBERT. Prior to November 24 you did not know his name?

Mr. SLAUGHTER. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you know George Senator, who lived with him?

Mr. SLAUGHTER. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you know him as well as you knew Jack Ruby, say, but of course--you didn’t know him at all?

Mr. SLAUGHTER. I don’t know George Senator to this moment.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you know a man, even if you did not know his name, who shared an apartment with Jack Ruby?

Mr. SLAUGHTER. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, coming precisely to November 24, 1963, do you remember whether you were at the apartment that you have described on that date?

Mr. SLAUGHTER. I was.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember whether you saw Jack Ruby on that date? At or about or near the apartment?

Mr. SLAUGHTER. On November 24?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Mr. SLAUGHTER. I did.

Mr. HUBERT. At approximately what time did you see him, sir?

Mr. SLAUGHTER. Approximately 10:05 a.m.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, you are fixing that time very accurately, and I want to ask you how you do so?

Mr. SLAUGHTER. Mr. Evans had just returned from a Catholic church in Oak Cliff, stating that he thought there was a 10 o’clock mass; however, there was none, so he returned to our apartment approximately at 10 o’clock a.m. I had just gotten up when he came in the apartment.

Mr. HUBERT. That’s Evans you are talking about?

Mr. SLAUGHTER. When Evans came in the apartment, I spoke to him and asked him what happened. He replied there was no mass at 10 a.m. He had decided to go to 11 o’clock mass. I went out in the kitchen and put on the coffee pot. Then I asked Evans how was the weather? He said, “Rather windy.” So, as was my custom, I walked out on the balcony just for my own information to see what the weather was like. It is approximately 50 feet to the railing where I would look down the freeway, and as I walked out the door toward this railing, I met Jack Ruby.

Mr. HUBERT. Was that in the hallway of the place?

Mr. SLAUGHTER. On a balcony, sir. He was coming the opposite way. I said, “Good morning,” and he acknowledged the greeting, not with the words “Good morning,” or “Howdy,” or any such statement, but he did acknowledge the greeting.

Mr. HUBERT. That is to say, he made no sound but he made a nod, I suppose; is that what you mean?

Mr. SLAUGHTER. “Hmmm”; something like that.

Mr. HUBERT. You passed right by him, then?

Mr. SLAUGHTER. That’s correct.

Mr. HUBERT. Within a matter of a foot or two?

Mr. SLAUGHTER. That’s correct.

Mr. HUBERT. How was he dressed at that time?

Mr. SLAUGHTER. In my terms, I would say very casual, such as a pair of khakis and a light jacket. I, myself, wear khakis and T-shirt as lounging clothes, we’ll use that term. I would say that Jack Ruby was dressed similarly.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he have a coat on, and I don’t mean an overcoat, but a coat to a suit?

Mr. SLAUGHTER. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he have a shirt or tie on?

Mr. SLAUGHTER. I don’t think he did. As I said, he did have a light jacket on and it appeared to be as my dress or a T-shirt, or some nature as that.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he appear to be shaved?

Mr. SLAUGHTER. I didn’t observe that closely.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you observe whether his hair was disheveled?

Mr. SLAUGHTER. His hair was combed and I’ll say he was more or less looking down as if in deep thought. That’s my impression.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he have a hat on?

Mr. SLAUGHTER. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. From what direction was he coming?

Mr. SLAUGHTER. Direction-wise he was coming from the end of the stairs which would let him walk in front of our apartment on down to his. As for direction, that would be----

Mr. HUBERT. He was going toward his apartment?

Mr. SLAUGHTER. That’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. If he continued in that direction, he, of course, could get to his apartment, but could he get to the lower floor at all?

Mr. SLAUGHTER. Not without back tracking or passing his apartment. There is a stairway on either end of the balcony.

Mr. HUBERT. And you met him about the middle of it or something like that?

Mr. SLAUGHTER. Toward our end.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you observe whether he went into his apartment or not?

Mr. SLAUGHTER. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Was he carrying anything?

Mr. SLAUGHTER. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know where he parked his car?

Mr. SLAUGHTER. Only hearsay. There was parking space provided for all tenants at the rear of the apartment.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, considering where that parking space was, if he were going from his car to his apartment, would he be taking the route you saw him take, or would the other route have been better?

Mr. SLAUGHTER. Well, as I say, I don’t know his car--I do not know where he was parked. Presuming he would park where the rest of us did and he was coming from his car?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Mr. SLAUGHTER. Presumably, it would have been the other end of the stairway that he would have used.

Mr. HUBERT. Rather than what he probably used--that’s the stairway that was on the end toward which you were approaching, is that right?

Mr. SLAUGHTER. That’s correct. My presumption there would be that he had either been to the mailbox or to the manager’s apartment.

Mr. HUBERT. Could he have been to the basement where it was possible to wash clothes?

Mr. SLAUGHTER. That’s on the other end of the building.

Mr. HUBERT. So, that it would be improbable that he would be coming at that time from the basement area?

Mr. SLAUGHTER. It would be improbable--yes.

Air. Hubert. When Mr. Evans came in, were you awake?

Mr. SLAUGHTER. I know not whether I was awake or he awakened me upon entering.

Mr. HUBERT. But you would judge that it would be about 10 minutes from the time that you first spoke to Evans until you saw Jack Ruby, or longer? Or shorter?

Mr. SLAUGHTER. I would say approximately that length of time.

Mr. HUBERT. About 10 minutes?

Mr. SLAUGHTER. About 10 minutes.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, in order to get it exactly straight, you would estimate that Evans came in about 5 minutes to 10, and that you occupied yourself in speaking to him a bit, and putting on the coffee, talking about the weather, and subsequently going out on the balcony and at the point at which you saw Ruby 10 minutes had elapsed from the time you first had spoken to Evans?

Mr. SLAUGHTER. That’s approximately correct.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you see Ruby any more that day?

Mr. SLAUGHTER. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Was there much space between your apartment and his apartment?

Mr. SLAUGHTER. Two apartments.

Mr. HUBERT. You couldn’t hear anything that might be going on in his apartment?

Mr. SLAUGHTER. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you hear anything from the direction of his apartment which might have indicated someone was leaving?

Mr. SLAUGHTER. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you hear or see his automobile leave?

Mr. SLAUGHTER. No, sir; I haven’t seen him yet.

Mr. HUBERT. This third gentleman who shared the apartments with you, I think you called him Mr. Scritchfield?

Mr. SLAUGHTER. Jack Scritchfield.

Mr. HUBERT. Was he there then?

Mr. SLAUGHTER. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he see Ruby to your knowledge?

Mr. SLAUGHTER. Not on that day; no, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Was he sleeping?

Mr. SLAUGHTER. He had just gone to bed within 30 minutes of Evans’ arrival.

Mr. HUBERT. And you would judge that he was asleep or at least in bed at the time Evans got back?

Mr. SLAUGHTER. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Had he been up prior to that time and moving around?

Mr. SLAUGHTER. You are speaking of Jack?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Mr. SLAUGHTER. He had just come in off of a run.

Mr. HUBERT. He walked right into the house and undressed and went to bed?

Mr. SLAUGHTER. In a very short matter of time--I don’t know exactly what time Jack got to the apartment, but he had been on an overnight run and he had just arrived and was due to sleep all day Sunday.

Mr. HUBERT. Prior to the time that you saw Ruby, had Sidney Evans mentioned anything to you about having seen him also?

Mr. SLAUGHTER. Not until after the television program.

Mr. HUBERT. Had you ever seen Ruby in or about the apartments with any feminine company?

Mr. SLAUGHTER. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Had you ever seen him there walking in or about with any man?

Mr. SLAUGHTER. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Had you ever seen him with a dog?

Mr. SLAUGHTER. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Mr. Slaughter, have you ever been interviewed by any member of the Commission prior to this occasion?

Mr. SLAUGHTER. Not the Commission.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, sir, have you anything else that you can tell us regarding the movements of Jack Ruby on this day or on any other day?

Mr. SLAUGHTER. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Thank you very much. We appreciate your cooperation.

Mr. SLAUGHTER. That’s all right--I hope this was some help.

Mr. HUBERT. Thank you again.

TESTIMONY OF VERNON S. SMART

The testimony of Vernon S. Smart was taken at 12:15 p.m., on March 25, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Burt W. Griffin, assistant counsel of the President’s Commission.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Lieutenant Smart, my name is Burt Griffin, and I am one of the attorneys on the advisory staff of the General Counsel of the President’s Commission Investigating the Assassination of President Kennedy. This Commission has been set up by virtue of an Executive order issued by President Johnson and joint resolution of Congress. The Executive order is No. 11130 and the congressional resolution is No. 137. We have promulgated a set of rules of procedure, the Commission has, and under these rules of procedure, I have been given authority to take your sworn deposition. Part of our rules of standard procedure is to explain to you in advance what the general nature of the Commission’s inquiry is. I will state in a general fashion that we are trying to ascertain and evaluate and report back to the President on the facts, and all of the facts, that relate to the assassination of President Kennedy and the murder of Lee Oswald. Our particular concern in calling you has more to do with the assassination or murder of Lee Oswald than it has to do with the assassination of the President; however, we want to have all of the information that you have which you think is pertinent to the matter that the Commission is involved in. Now, we have addressed a letter, that is, the General Counsel has addressed a letter, to Chief Curry requesting that you be made available to appear here. Under the rules of the Commission, you are entitled to a personal 3-day notice before you testify. You can waive this notice. I will ask you right now if you want the 3-day notice or whether you are willing to waive the notice?

Mr. SMART. No; I will waive it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Also, you are entitled to have an attorney here, and some of the witnesses do have attorneys and others of them don’t, and I take it that, by the fact that you are appearing here alone, that you do not desire an attorney; however, if you do desire to have an attorney present representing you, I wish you would say so at this time, and don’t feel that it would be any embarrassment to any of us or we would be concerned about it.

Mr. SMART. No; I don’t feel like I need one right now.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, let me tell you.

Mr. SMART. Not for this; no.

Mr. GRIFFIN. We have no authority to prosecute anybody.

Mr. SMART. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. This is a factfinding matter, and I think more than very many people fully appreciate that this investigation is intimately connected with the security of the country.

Mr. SMART. Right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And, of course, most particularly the security of the President, and it is terribly important from a standpoint of protection and making sure that things don’t happen in the future----

Mr. SMART. I understand.

Mr. GRIFFIN. That we get everything. We have collected a lot of information in this area, and I can only tell you that what you think might be unimportant or would be more interested in withholding for fear of embarrassing somebody could be terribly important to us when all of the pieces are put together.

Mr. SMART. That is right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, let me ask you if you have any questions about what we are doing here?

Mr. SMART. No; I think I understand.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me swear you in, then. If you will, will you raise your right hand? Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth?

Mr. SMART. I do.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Lieutenant Smart, when were you born?

Mr. SMART. July 10, 1912.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And where do you live now?

Mr. SMART. Dallas.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What is your address?

Mr. SMART. 2120 Ballycastle Street.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. And you are employed with the Dallas Police Department?

Mr. SMART. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And you are a lieutenant?

Mr. SMART. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long have you been with the police department?

Mr. SMART. Twenty-nine years.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you been interviewed by any member of this staff? I am not talking about FBI agents, but any members of the President’s Commission staff----

Mr. SMART. No, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Other than me?

Mr. SMART. No, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And have I interviewed you before taking your deposition here?

Mr. SMART. No, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. I am going to mark here for identification purposes a copy of an interview that was held with you by Special Agents Bookhout and Myers, [spelling] M-y-e-r-s, and that is Bookhout [spelling], B-o-o-k-h-o-u-t, of the Federal Bureau of Investigation on November 25, 1963. I am going to mark that, “Dallas, Texas, Lieutenant Smart, 3-25-64, Exhibit 5021.” I am going to hand it to you and ask you if you have had a chance to read that over?

Mr. SMART. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, are there any additions or corrections that you would care to make in that?

Mr. SMART. No. I told it to them just as I saw and heard it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you file a report of your own activities with the police department?

Mr. SMART. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I wonder if you would be good enough to provide us with a copy of that. You think, after this interview is over, you could get a copy of it and provide it to us?

Mr. SMART. Could I?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. SMART. You say could I?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. SMART. I think so. I don’t have it in my possession.

Mr. GRIFFIN. We have asked everybody else, and there is no problem on that.

Mr. SMART. Yes, I am sure they will.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me ask you this. Were you on duty on November 22?

Mr. SMART. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where were you stationed?

Mr. SMART. Wait a minute. November 22?

Mr. GRIFFIN. The day that the President was shot.

Mr. SMART. No, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you on duty on November 23?

Mr. SMART. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And what time did you come to work that day?

Mr. SMART. 7 a.m.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, you are in charge of the auto theft division, is that right?

Mr. SMART. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is there any officer who is above you in the auto theft division?

Mr. SMART. At that time?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. SMART. No. You say are there or was there?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there at that time?

Mr. SMART. No, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, what was the relationship of Captain Nichols?

Mr. SMART. He was off duty that day.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. But he is also an officer in it?

Mr. SMART. He is in charge of it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. He is----

Mr. SMART. He is the captain.

Mr. GRIFFIN. He is in charge of the whole division?

Mr. SMART. The whole bureau.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I see.

Mr. SMART. In his absence, I am in charge.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. Now, what time did you leave on the 23d, leave work?

Mr. SMART. It was late in the afternoon. I don’t remember the time.

Mr. GRIFFIN. On the 23d, did you give any assistance in connection with the investigation of the murder of the President, did you lend any assistance to that----

Mr. SMART. No, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. To that investigation?

Mr. SMART. No, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you lend any assistance in connection with preserving security in the building or press relations or anything like that?

Mr. SMART. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you tell us--I am talking about the 23d.

Mr. SMART. Twenty-third?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you tell us what you did on the 23d in that regard?

Mr. SMART. I was told by Chief Stevenson to have all of the men in my bureau to stand by to assist in the transfer of Oswald.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, when were you told this by Chief Stevenson?

Mr. SMART. It must have been--I can’t say for sure--in the neighborhood of 8 or 9 o’clock in the morning.

Mr. GRIFFIN. On Saturday morning?

Mr. SMART. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. That is the day before the transfer.

Mr. SMART. Said he didn’t know what time they were going to move him but to have all of the men stand by available.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you then pass the word throughout your division?

Mr. SMART. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you prepare any written memorandum of this?

Mr. SMART. No, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would there be anything in writing to indicate what sort of instructions were given or that there were instructions given?

Mr. SMART. All verbal.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember talking with any particular men about this in your department?