Chapter XIII: Part 13

Mr. RIGGS. No, sir; for the Sunshine Laundry.

Mr. HUBERT. How long have you been employed as a porter at the municipal building in Dallas?

Mr. RIGGS. That is approximately 7 years.

Mr. HUBERT. Seven years. In other words, all the time you have been working there----

Mr. RIGGS. That is only----

Mr. HUBERT. For Dallas Public Works Department you have worked in that building?

Mr. RIGGS. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. What are your hours?

Mr. RIGGS. Generally from 6 until 2:45.

Mr. HUBERT. Six in the morning?

Mr. RIGGS. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Is that every day.

Mr. RIGGS. Yes; every day except Saturday and Sunday. Actually, sometimes I work weekends. We do a little extra work on Saturday and Sunday.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you get paid extra for that?

Mr. RIGGS. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Who determines when you do extra work?

Mr. RIGGS. Well, the head porter and our supervising engineer, Mr. Homer Garland usually picks out certain things for us to do, and the head porter will tell us.

Mr. HUBERT. Who is the head porter?

Mr. RIGGS. Charles Gill.

Mr. HUBERT. G-i-l-l?

Mr. RIGGS. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, I understand that you were working and on duty on November 24, the date that Oswald was shot.

Mr. RIGGS. That’s right, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Why were you working that day?

Mr. RIGGS. Well, I was doing work inside the new city hall. Well, in the old building. We was cleaning the floors, because we had quite a few photographers in around, and they wanted us to keep the stuff off the floor.

Mr. HUBERT. By the old building you mean the building now occupied by the Dallas Police Department?

Mr. RIGGS. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. The new building that you refer to is the municipal building?

Mr. RIGGS. Municipal building, yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. What time did you report for work?

Mr. RIGGS. I would say 7 o’clock, 7 o’clock that morning.

Mr. HUBERT. Who ordered you to go to work?

Mr. RIGGS. Well, Gill.

Mr. HUBERT. Had you worked the day before, too?

Mr. RIGGS. This was on----

Mr. HUBERT. Sunday.

Mr. RIGGS. Sunday, no, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Had you worked on Saturday?

Mr. RIGGS. No, sir; I don’t believe I worked that Saturday.

Mr. HUBERT. Had you worked on Friday night until Saturday morning?

Mr. RIGGS. Yes, sir; I was absent, actually, I worked, you know--it is my regular work through--weekly day from 6 until 2:45, and like I say, if you work weekends, usually work from 7 until 3. Actually, from 6 and--until 3. Usually come in a little earlier at various times, but this day I believe I came in at 7.

Mr. HUBERT. What I mean is that on Saturday, the day before this day, did you work your regular hours or----

Mr. RIGGS. I’m trying to think, because we had quite a bit of work that weekend, because actually, we had quite a few people over in the other building. They sent different ones. Only time I remember is--that day I don’t know whether I worked that night before then, because I had worked quite a bit on that weekend, too.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, for the purposes of identification, I’m going to mark a document which purports to be a photostatic copy of a sign-in sheet.

Mr. RIGGS. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Of porters and maids at the city hall on November 24, 1963, as follows: “Dallas, Texas, April 1, 1964. Exhibit No. 5128, deposition of Alfreadia Riggs.” I am signing my name, and then another document also purporting to be sign-in sheet for the city hall porters and maids, dated November 23, 1963, and I am marking that at the bottom, “Dallas, Texas, April 1, 1964. Exhibit 5128-A, Deposition of Alfreadia Riggs.” I am signing my name on it. Now, I will ask you to look at this document that has been marked Exhibit 5128, and see if your name is on it in print, and if your handwriting is on that document?

Mr. RIGGS. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Is that your--next to your printed name is that your signature?

Mr. RIGGS. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. And the two columns that appear, “Sign in 7 a.m.,” “Sign out 5:30 p.m.”--no, 3 p.m., is that your handwriting, too?

Mr. RIGGS. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Both of those?

Mr. RIGGS. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, look at the document marked 5128-A. Next to your printed name I see A.R., those are your initials?

Mr. RIGGS. That’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, there is a sign-in 11 p.m., and a sign-out at 7 a.m., does that mean you went on duty at 11 o’clock on that Saturday night, and got off at 7 o’clock in the morning, Sunday, or does it mean you signed in at 11 o’clock on Friday night and got off at 7 o’clock on Saturday morning?

Mr. RIGGS. This, I believe I worked that night.

Mr. HUBERT. Which night?

Mr. RIGGS. When it says--Saturday, 23.

Mr. HUBERT. Until Sunday morning?

Mr. RIGGS. Until Sunday morning. That is when I was signing out, and I worked right on through that Sunday.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, you didn’t go home at all?

Mr. RIGGS. No, sir; not until 3 p.m.

Mr. HUBERT. So, what it amounts to is that you started at 11 o’clock Saturday night and carried clean on through until that Sunday, but you signed in and signed out twice?

Mr. RIGGS. We usually have to do that on two different sheets.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, you were assigned particularly to what location?

Mr. RIGGS. Well, just 11--from 11 to 7, it was on the elevators.

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Mr. RIGGS. From 11 o’clock that night until 7 o’clock the next morning I was on the elevators, and then on this other deal, from 7 until 3 was cleaning up the Police and Courts Building.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, when you got off the elevator at 7 o’clock, who relieved you?

Mr. RIGGS. McKinzie, I believe.

Mr. HUBERT. Louis McKinzie?

Mr. RIGGS. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. When did you finish cleaning up the police building?

Mr. RIGGS. Well, we never did finish cleaning it up, because after the incident came about----

Mr. HUBERT. After Oswald was shot, you mean?

Mr. RIGGS. There was so much disturbance in the halls, actually, I was never able to get back over there in the building to clean it up.

Mr. HUBERT. Were you in the municipal building at any time during the 24th?

Mr. RIGGS. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. I am not talking about the police building, I am talking about the municipal building?

Mr. RIGGS. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you do any work in the municipal building?

Mr. RIGGS. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. How did you get from the municipal building to--no, from the police building where you were working to the municipal building?

Mr. RIGGS. Well, I came down through the basement. It wasn’t--trying to think all who were down in the basement. We was all standing around. It was Harold, Gill, Kelly, and if I’m not mistaken, I think Pierce all standing around in the basement, and the police was searching the rafters and checking the cars for guns and things, and finally whenever sergeant--actually I don’t know exactly his name--gave orders for them to clear out everybody in the basement down there, so, we got on the elevator and went to the first floor in order to look out the door. We--to see when they got him out to the ramp.

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Mr. RIGGS. I think Servance had opened up the front door in the municipal building, and we was standing between--which it has two doors, one stays locked all the time, and one stays open because they have a meter where people put their water deposits in a little box. He had opened the doors on the inside, and we was standing between the two doors.

Mr. HUBERT. Which doors are you talking about?

Mr. RIGGS. On Commerce Street side.

Mr. HUBERT. Who opened that door?

Mr. RIGGS. Servance.

Mr. HUBERT. Servance. Now, what other entrances are there to the first floor of the municipal building?

Mr. RIGGS. How many entrances?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes; how can you get into it?

Mr. RIGGS. Well, we have one that leaves from the first floor to the Police and Courts Building, which it stays shut over the weekend, or on the weekend.

Mr. HUBERT. Sort of a metal gate?

Mr. RIGGS. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Swinging gate like an accordion. It swings out and blocks the corridor that runs between the two buildings?

Mr. RIGGS. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Was that open or closed?

Mr. RIGGS. Closed.

Mr. HUBERT. You say that----

Mr. RIGGS. Kept closed.

Mr. HUBERT. Who keeps it closed?

Mr. RIGGS. Well, usually the porter that works at night closes it up.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you check it to see that it was closed?

Mr. RIGGS. No, sir; I looked and it seemed to be closed actually.

Mr. HUBERT. That is to say that this gate, like a metal gate that runs from the floor to the ceiling, was pulled to, but you don’t know if it was locked?

Mr. RIGGS. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Is it possible to lock that door?

Mr. RIGGS. It is possible.

Mr. HUBERT. Is it possible to lock that corridor?

Mr. RIGGS. Yes, sir; yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. So you have that door, you have an entrance from Commerce Street, and there is an entrance on Main Street?

Mr. RIGGS. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. What was the condition of that door on Sunday?

Mr. RIGGS. Well, it was--well, I presume it was closed, too.

Mr. HUBERT. Is it usually?

Mr. RIGGS. Yes, sir; during the weekend the old building is closed. Like I say, I couldn’t verify to say that it was closed or it was open, because actually, I did not check it, but----

Mr. HUBERT. You knew normally that it is closed?

Mr. RIGGS. It is closed, yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. And it locks so that you can’t get in?

Mr. RIGGS. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, what about the entrance to the building, that entrance and exit to the building, that leads to the alleyway?

Mr. RIGGS. The heavy back door back there?

Mr. HUBERT. There is a back door back there, isn’t there?

Mr. RIGGS. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, does that door remain open, or closed, or what?

Mr. RIGGS. Well, it remains closed, too.

Mr. HUBERT. Closed all the time?

Mr. RIGGS. All the time. We usually keep a key on the elevator that will open the back door.

Mr. HUBERT. The door that goes to the alley?

Mr. RIGGS. Yes, sir; that goes into this alley, but it will not open either the front door or the Harwood side or Main side.

Mr. HUBERT. That key is kept on a ring in the elevator?

Mr. RIGGS. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, to go from the main floor of the municipal building, that is, from the first floor to that alleyway, you have to go through the service elevator, don’t you?

Mr. RIGGS. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. And the service elevator has two doors?

Mr. RIGGS. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. One that opens up on the Main Street corridor of the municipal building, and the other one that opens up on a corridor and leads to the back door that leads to the alleyway?

Mr. RIGGS. To the alleyway.

Mr. HUBERT. And the key to that back door is in the elevator?

Mr. RIGGS. On the elevator, yes, sir. Now, there is another way, too, on the first floor that you can go down the stairway and go to the basement from the first floor.

Mr. HUBERT. Is that the fire escape?

Mr. RIGGS. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. And that is never closed?

Mr. RIGGS. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. So that if anybody is on the first floor they can get into the basement by using the fire escape, or using the elevator?

Mr. RIGGS. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, besides the service elevator that we already talked about, the one that has two doors, there are two other elevators on that floor?

Mr. RIGGS. Yes, sir; but they usually cut off. They don’t have but one elevator, and call it the freight elevator, the one that runs over the weekend.

Mr. HUBERT. The other two were closed?

Mr. RIGGS. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. They were closed that day?

Mr. RIGGS. Yes, sir; they were cut off.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, now, I think you were saying that Mr. Servance opened the Commerce Street door, is that correct?

Mr. RIGGS. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. If you will, tell us about that.

Mr. RIGGS. Well, after we left from the basement and went to the first floor, he opened the door on the Commerce Street side, and we stood up there between the two doors, approximately, I’d say 45 minutes to an hour.

Mr. HUBERT. When you say between the two doors, you mean that on Commerce Street there is an outside door, and a sort of a vestibule, and then inside doors?

Mr. RIGGS. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Sort of wind-break doors?

Mr. RIGGS. Yes, sir; which actually, the outside door stays open because they have, like I said, they have the deposit meter where you can pay your bills and they keep it open.

Mr. HUBERT. So that the outside doors on the Commerce Street side are always open, but then the inside doors also on the Commerce Street side are closed on weekends?

Mr. RIGGS. That’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, Servance opened the inside door and then where did you all go?

Mr. RIGGS. We stood in between.

Mr. HUBERT. In--you never did go out the outside door?

Mr. RIGGS. No, sir; because we had an officer outside the door. He was standing on the steps there.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, what happened after that?

Mr. RIGGS. After we stood around there a certain length of time, I don’t know exactly how long, I’d say approximately 45 minutes or an hour, then the armored car came up, and they started backing down the ramp, and Harold and myself decided that we would----

Mr. HUBERT. Pardon. Fuqua?

Mr. RIGGS. Fuqua; yes, sir. We decided we would try to go down in the police locker room and maybe watch it on television. We came from the first floor----

Mr. HUBERT. Well, you left the Commerce Street entrance--did you close it? Did you lock it up?

Mr. RIGGS. No, sir; because Servance and the rest of them were still standing up there.

Mr. HUBERT. So, you left before they did, and you don’t know whether he locked it or not?

Mr. RIGGS. Then only Harold and myself left. We came in the elevator, I got the keys, unlocked the back door, and I locked it back. I still had the keys.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, when you went through the elevator door, did you leave it open?

Mr. RIGGS. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. The elevator door that is on the alleyway side was left open?

Mr. RIGGS. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. And you took the key out of the elevator for the back door on the alleyway, and you opened that back door?

Mr. RIGGS. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, you kept the key?

Mr. RIGGS. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, did you leave that back door open?

Mr. RIGGS. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, what do you mean?

Mr. RIGGS. I made sure I locked it back, because actually we usually are supposed to lock the door, keep it locked, and when I unlocked the door from the inside and in turn, took the key and put it on the other side and locked it back.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, then what did you do?

Mr. RIGGS. We left from the alleyway and walked to the left as we went out the back door.

Mr. HUBERT. Towards Main Street?

Mr. RIGGS. Towards Main Street, yes, sir; and got to Main Street, turned left going towards Harwood, and then as we passed--which is a driveway that leads down to the ramp on the Main Street side, well, we sort of glanced down through that-a-way to see, you understand. We saw that armored car which we couldn’t see from up there on the top. Then we left, and went to Harwood, made a left, which was going towards Commerce off of Main Street, which is on Harwood, and as you get to the--between the blocks of the building, half way, they have a--steps that leads down into the basement.

Mr. HUBERT. On the Harwood Street side of the steps that lead down into the basement? Did you go down those steps?

Mr. RIGGS. Actually, Harold asked me to go down and check and see if it would be all right for us to go down because we were under the impression that they had the police--had a police officer on the door. After I went down and checked and there wasn’t anyone and then I turned and told him to come down and he and I came on down too, and well, the photographers and all was in the basement. All--we passed on by, and went down to the police basement, which is--opposite from the prop room. You have to go down the hall and down the steps.

Mr. HUBERT. You mean you went down into the locker room? That is where all the policemen have their lockers and there’s a recreation room and television and----

Mr. RIGGS. Yes, sir; and television and--and there was a jail attendant down there, actually he didn’t work in the jail office, he is not a policeman, but he works in the jail office.

Mr. HUBERT. What is his name? Do you know?

Mr. RIGGS. No, sir; I really don’t. He told us that he didn’t think they were going to show it on television. He imagined they were going to run a tape and show it later on. Said, “Well, we should have stayed up there. Maybe we could have seen him when they brought him out--” While we were down there I bought a little can of soup, or chili or something, and I was eating as we came back up to the--and we stood on the opposite wall from the corridor that leads out to the basement from the hallway that goes out to the basement, and where it has a door--I’m sorry, I couldn’t explain, but actually it leads to the basement, goes where they park the cars. We was standing up--opposite--in other words, two corridors, you understand, separate that, and well, we was standing up there maybe about 5 minutes, one of the newspapermen said, “Here he come, here he come,” and well, we got on the other side of the wall and was trying to look, well, so much rushing and all that actually we didn’t see anything, and then did hear the shot, didn’t actually sound like a shot, sort of muffled out.

Mr. HUBERT. Were you in the basement at that time?

Mr. RIGGS. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. On the Commerce Street side, or the Main Street side?

Mr. RIGGS. It was in between, because it is--if you had been down there, there is a way that comes through the basement, pass by the jail office and corridor where you turn left, and go down there, turn right, and police assembly room is down at the far end, and go up there way, and go----

Mr. HUBERT. Did you go through the engineer’s room?

Mr. RIGGS. No, sir; this is down in the police building where the records, the information is.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, perhaps if you look at this thing over here, this mockup, you will be able to clarify this. Now, this is the jail office.

Mr. RIGGS. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. And see back over there is the parking area. This mockup doesn’t show the elevators, but I have a map here which is a chart, really, of that same area only more extensive. For instance, here is the jail office, here are these two ramps, and this mockup only goes to here, you see?

Mr. RIGGS. Uh-huh.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, what I want you to do is to identify this first by marking as follows: “Dallas, Texas, April 1, 1964, Exhibit 5129, deposition of Alfreadia Riggs,” I am signing my name on it, and so that the record may show that we are both talking about the same thing, I’m asking you to put your name below mine on there. Now, I want you to look at the mockup first and locate first where you were when the shot was fired, then we’ll mark it on the map.

Mr. RIGGS. Well, actually, they didn’t have it on here, just this part here is extended out, see what I am referring to is this corridor leads down here that goes to the police assembly room, this part here is--corridor here leads towards Commerce Street side. Now, it has--along here it has a corner here, that is what--two corridors there, and this is just a wall what leads into the elevators. Now, when--actually when they--when they was bringing him out, we were standing on this side, and when they brought him out we moved from here over to here [indicating].

Mr. HUBERT. All right. Now, sir, you have testified that actually, your first position is not shown on either the mockup or the map?

Mr. RIGGS. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. But, if it were on the map, it would be shown at the bottom of the map?

Mr. RIGGS. That’s right, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. And you moved up to a position about here [indicating]?

Mr. RIGGS. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. So, I am marking an “X” and putting a circle around it as to the position you moved to when you heard the shot, right?

Mr. RIGGS. That’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. I am marking in my own handwriting, “Position of Alfreadia Riggs at the time of shooting.” I am putting that in a circle and connecting it to the smaller circle with the “X” in it. The smaller circle with the “X” in it being the spot at which Alfreadia Riggs testified he was standing at the time of the shot, is that correct?

Mr. RIGGS. That’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. And Fuqua was with you?

Mr. RIGGS. That’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, you had come from a position that, if it were on the map, would be toward the bottom of the map?

Mr. RIGGS. That’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you recognize the position of the service elevator here?

Mr. RIGGS. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. After you had been told to get out of the parking area marked here, and you had gone up with these others on the service elevator to the first floor, did you ever get back into this part on the map called parking area?

Mr. RIGGS. Well, only after everything was over.

Mr. HUBERT. I understand, but prior to the shooting, you never did get back?

Mr. RIGGS. Never did get back down there; no, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. You had gone through the service elevator, not on the area shown by this Exhibit 5129, because that is the basement area?

Mr. RIGGS. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. But on that same service elevator on the next floor up?

Mr. RIGGS. That’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. And went through that elevator to the back door, turned to your left onto Main Street, passed the ramp on Main Street, went over to Harwood Street, went down into the basement area through the Harwood Street----

Mr. RIGGS. Entrance; yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Entrance that goes down to the basement. Then you went to the recreation room and finally came to the position you indicated just before the shooting?

Mr. RIGGS. That’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. How did you get back to the main floor of the municipal building after the shooting?

Mr. RIGGS. After the shooting--during the excitement and that, during the excitement Harold and I, we went over to the police information room over there to get out of the way of the traffic. The police was all--they was closing all the entrances and wasn’t letting anyone in and letting no one out, so, in order to keep from being in the way, we went inside the information room, and stayed over there, I imagine 30 minutes, 20 or 30 minutes, and Harold asked chief--I think it was Chief Lumpkin for him to escort us from there to the basement, because--I think he wanted to go home, or his time was up or something. He wanted to get out of there, because it made him pretty nervous, and Chief Lumpkin escorted us through the corridor there that leads to the basement to the parking area, and we went over there and stayed, or was down in the basement, and after the time elapsed, I went down in our porter room and stayed around there until time for me to get off.

Mr. HUBERT. What did you do with the keys that you had?

Mr. RIGGS. I put them back in the elevator.

Mr. HUBERT. You put them back in the elevator on what floor?

Mr. RIGGS. In the basement there.

Mr. HUBERT. Was the elevator down in the basement then?

Mr. RIGGS. Well, I called it down.

Mr. HUBERT. Was McKinzie operating the elevator?

Mr. RIGGS. Yes; he was.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he see you put the keys back?

Mr. RIGGS. I don’t know for sure. During the excitement and all of that, I think--I don’t know whether he and I or someone got to talking about the incident, and I don’t remember.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, you did not go out through the Main Street door when you went out with Fuqua?

Mr. RIGGS. No, sir; definitely.

Mr. HUBERT. Back in the alley?

Mr. RIGGS. Back in the alley; yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. And you had the keys with you all the time?

Mr. RIGGS. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Why did you take the keys with you?

Mr. RIGGS. Well, because there was only this once that--well, actually, I usually, normally have a key. As a matter of fact, I have quite a few keys. I didn’t have mine with me during that time, and that was the only one during that time that would open up that door that was available, and it stays in the elevator, we close that, because lots of times some of those porters in the other building will use the keys in the elevator to put trash out this back door.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, that door, as a matter of fact, can only be opened from either side. You need a key no matter which way you are coming from?

Mr. RIGGS. That’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. It can’t be set so that it is open?

Mr. RIGGS. You have to unlock it from the inside and going out, to lock it back, you have to lock it from the outside. In coming back through you have to unlock it from the outside with the key.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, now, I understood that that back door would not open in any way without a key so that if you went through it with a key it would close by itself and you would need a key to get back in again?

Mr. RIGGS. That’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. You couldn’t put a snap on that to keep it open?

Mr. RIGGS. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. There is no snap?

Mr. RIGGS. No, sir; I don’t think. You have to use a key.

Mr. HUBERT. You were in uniform that day?

Mr. RIGGS. That’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. That uniform, is a well-known uniform?

Mr. RIGGS. It is gray with red letters. It has “City of Dallas,” on the left side, and name on the right of it.

Mr. HUBERT. Your name sewed on?

Mr. RIGGS. Yes, sir, embroidered on.

Mr. HUBERT. Right.

Mr. RIGGS. First initial and last name.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, I am showing you a document which purports to be a report of an interview of you by FBI Agent Jack Peden, and I am marking it for identification as follows: “Dallas, Tex., April 1, 1964, Exhibit 5130, deposition of Alfreadia Riggs,” and putting my name on the first page and since it has a second page I am marking on the second page my initials in the lower right-hand corner. I would like you to read that report and see if it reflects the truth, as far as you know it?

Mr. RIGGS. That’s right, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, in order that the record can show that we are both talking about the same document, I would ask you to sign your name below mine on the margin there, or next to it, and place your initials on the second page as I have done. Now, you have signed your name on the first page of Exhibit 5130, and your--put your initials on the second page. Have you read it?

Mr. RIGGS. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Does it represent the truth?

Mr. RIGGS. That’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. Any corrections or alterations to be made, or anything?

Mr. RIGGS. My--no, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Are you willing to state that if we consider the facts stated in Exhibit 5130 and the facts as stated by you in this deposition that we have everything whatsoever that you now know about this matter?

Mr. RIGGS. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Nothing that is left out?

Mr. RIGGS. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Everything is correct?

Mr. RIGGS. Yes, sir. Everything is correct.

Mr. HUBERT. I should have added that if we also consider the information you have testified to on Exhibit 5128 and 5128-A, that is the sign-in sheet, we have the full information of that?

Mr. RIGGS. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. All right. Now, have you been previously interviewed by any member of the President’s Commission?

Mr. RIGGS. No, sir; I haven’t.

Mr. HUBERT. You have not been interviewed previously by me, or anybody who identified themselves as being connected with the President’s Commission?

Mr. RIGGS. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, Alfreadia, I just want to get clear once again on one point. Is it possible, at all, that you went out of the municipal building through the Main Street entrance?

Mr. RIGGS. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. With Fuqua?

Mr. RIGGS. No, sir; we definitely went through the back door.

Mr. HUBERT. You and Fuqua?

Mr. RIGGS. Yes, sir; me and Harold Fuqua.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, that’s all, thank you very much.

TESTIMONY OF JOHN OLRIDGE SERVANCE

The testimony of John Olridge Servance was taken at 11:45 a.m., on April 1, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr., assistant counsel of the President’s Commission.

Mr. HUBERT. This is the deposition of John O. Servance.

Mr. Servance, my name is Leon Hubert. I am a member of the advisory staff of the general counsel of the President’s Commission.

Under the provisions of the Executive Order 11130, dated November 29, 1963, a Joint Resolution of Congress No. 137, and the rules of procedure adopted by the Commission in conformance with the Executive order and joint resolution, I have been authorized to take a sworn deposition from you, Mr. Servance. I state to you now that the general nature of the Commission’s inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate, and report upon any fact relating to the assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of Lee Harvey Oswald. In particular as to you, Mr. Servance, the nature of the inquiry today is to determine the facts that you know about the death of Oswald and any other pertinent facts you may know about the general inquiry, and particularly the opening of doors and so forth of the municipal office or building. Now, you have appeared here by informal request made for you to come. Under the rules adopted by the Commission you are actually entitled to a 3-day written notice before you can be required to come, but on the other hand, the rules of the Commission provide that a witness may waive the 3-day notice if he sees fit to do so. Since you have not had the 3-day written notice, I will ask you if you are willing to waive the 3-day written notice and have your testimony taken now?

Mr. SERVANCE. I will.

Mr. HUBERT. Will you stand and raise your right hand so that you may be sworn. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony that you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. SERVANCE. I do.

Mr. HUBERT. Will you please state your name.

Mr. SERVANCE. My name is John Olridge Servance. [Spelling] S-e-r-v-a-n-c-e, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Servance. How old are you, sir?

Mr. SERVANCE. I am--beg your pardon, I am 54 years old.

Mr. HUBERT. Where do you live?

Mr. SERVANCE. I live at Lancaster, 319 Lancaster, Hutchins Road. Lancaster Hutchins, 319 Lancaster Hutchins Road, Lancaster, Tex.

Mr. HUBERT. And what is your present occupation?

Mr. SERVANCE. I am a--the head porter, I believe that is the way it is listed, foreman or supervisor, you might call it, over both buildings at night. The city hall and the municipal city hall.

Mr. HUBERT. Those buildings annex, actually, not two separate buildings?

Mr. SERVANCE. Some connections.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, will you--we’ll go into that in a minute. How long have you been so occupied, sir?

Mr. SERVANCE. Will be 17 years the 2d day of July, or let’s say 16.

Mr. HUBERT. How long have you been head porter out there?

Mr. SERVANCE. Well, I would presume about 15 years. I was head porter before I come down there with some other part of the city. I was with the water department.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, I am marking a document which purports to be a report of an interview with you by FBI Agent Jack Peden, as follows: “Dallas, Texas, April 1, 1964, Exhibit 5131, deposition of John O. Servance,” and I am signing my name on this document which is a one-page document, and so that the record may show that we are both speaking about the same document would you place your name below mine on that document, sir? You may use this pen.

Mr. SERVANCE. Below yours?

Mr. HUBERT. Well, just anywhere there to the side.

Mr. SERVANCE. All right.

Mr. HUBERT. Mr. Servance, have you read this document?

Mr. SERVANCE. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Exhibit 5131, which you have just signed?

Mr. SERVANCE. I read it.

Mr. HUBERT. Is it correct and true?

Mr. SERVANCE. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Any alterations or modifications that you wish to make to it?

Mr. SERVANCE. No, it isn’t. Now, I mean, as far as I understood it. As far as I could remember, that is true.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, now, you have just read it, haven’t you?

Mr. SERVANCE. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. And it seems to be correct?

Mr. SERVANCE. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, do you know Alfreadia Riggs?

Mr. SERVANCE. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. And Henry Fuqua?

Mr. SERVANCE. Hal Fuqua.

Mr. HUBERT. Hal Fuqua, is it?

Mr. SERVANCE. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you see them in the basement that day?

Mr. SERVANCE. I saw them in the basement.

Mr. HUBERT. And all of you were sent up the service elevator by the police to the first floor of the municipal building, is that right?

Mr. SERVANCE. That’s right, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. It is true that at one time during the course of the morning there you opened the inside door on the Commerce Street entrance of the municipal building so you all could look out?

Mr. SERVANCE. Well; yes, sir. I did, I opened the door. We stood--there’s a glass vestibule, you know.

Mr. HUBERT. You stood in this vestibule. The outside doors to Commerce Street remain open all the time, and the inside door is locked. You had a key and you unlocked it and all of you stood in the vestibule for a while, is that right?

Mr. SERVANCE. For a while, that’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. What happened to Riggs and Fuqua? Do you know?

Mr. SERVANCE. They was standing there. What I mean, we were there during--all the excitement, I don’t know--everything just--I don’t know what way--I thought they were still there. I didn’t see them. I mean, that is--

Mr. HUBERT. When you left the vestibule, did you lock the door?

Mr. SERVANCE. I locked the door, I did.

Mr. HUBERT. Did anybody come in through the Commerce Street entrance while you were standing there?

Mr. SERVANCE. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Could anyone have come in without your noticing it?

Mr. SERVANCE. No, sir; they couldn’t have.

Mr. HUBERT. Why do you say that?

Mr. SERVANCE. Well, first place, the door wasn’t opened all the time, just for a few moments, and the next place there was a policeman out on the outside didn’t allow us to come--and give us orders to go back in and shut it.

Mr. HUBERT. I see, and anyhow, if anyone had come in probably you would have seen them, isn’t that correct?

Mr. SERVANCE. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know Mr. Jack Ruby?

Mr. SERVANCE. Never seen him before.

Mr. HUBERT. He didn’t pass through that door?

Mr. SERVANCE. No, sir; he didn’t.

Mr. HUBERT. And you definitely locked it?

Mr. SERVANCE. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, what other entrances or exits are there to the first floor of the municipal building?

Mr. SERVANCE. Well, now, you would have--the first floor, we have a gate leading from the city hall now, the old building from the municipal----

Mr. HUBERT. The police building?

Mr. SERVANCE. Yes, sir; police building, I’ll put it that way, it was locked.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, a corridor that connects the old police building and the new municipal building?

Mr. SERVANCE. That’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. And it has a sort of an accordianlike gate which spreads across the whole thing and runs from ceiling to floor?

Mr. SERVANCE. That’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. Does it lock?

Mr. SERVANCE. It was locked this day, the 24th.

Mr. HUBERT. It was? You know that to be a fact?

Mr. SERVANCE. I made sure. I locked it and then doublechecked it in the morning.

Mr. HUBERT. It was never opened, then, as far as you know?

Mr. SERVANCE. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, what about the Main Street entrance?

Mr. SERVANCE. Well, it was locked; no one went out there.

Mr. HUBERT. And you know that to be a fact, too?

Mr. SERVANCE. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, what about the two elevators other than the service elevator?

Mr. SERVANCE. They were cut off, completely off.

Mr. HUBERT. How do you know that?

Mr. SERVANCE. Well, every evening when I went there, every night they cut them off. Well, then, I tested them to see were they off.

Mr. HUBERT. How did you test them?

Mr. SERVANCE. Mashed the button to see if it don’t run.

Mr. HUBERT. You tried on this morning to get--to make sure the elevators were cut off?

Mr. SERVANCE. Their power is cut off. They are cut off. You have to go up on the penthouse on top and cut them off.

Mr. HUBERT. They are cut off every night?

Mr. SERVANCE. And on weekends. Weekends; yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. What other ways are there to get into the municipal building from the first floor? We have Commerce Street and Main Street.

Mr. SERVANCE. They have the rear exit there.

Mr. HUBERT. Tell us about that?

Mr. SERVANCE. Well, you see, the service elevator has the double doors, you open both of those doors there and go out the service elevator, you can go out now, to the service elevator; we do have a way that will unlock--well, in fact, have a chain of keys there and that if anyone--anybody that is working on any of those floors during the weekends, well, they can get those keys and go in there and out the back, if they want.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, that back door to the building, that leads to what?

Mr. SERVANCE. Oh, it leads to the alley.

Mr. HUBERT. Leads to the alley? Is there a key in the elevator that opens the back door?

Mr. SERVANCE. They were open; that’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. Are you familiar with how that back door works?

Mr. SERVANCE. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Can the back door be opened at any time without the key?

Mr. SERVANCE. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. In there--any button that you can push so you don’t need a key?

Mr. SERVANCE. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, to go to that door, once it is closed, now, coming from either way, from inside the building or from outside the building, you have to have a key to make that door operate?

Mr. SERVANCE. Yes, sir; you really do. No, no, now, you can push shut, you can snap the door and remain open.

Mr. HUBERT. If you want that door to stay open you’ve got to prop it open. Once the door is closed you need a key no matter which way you are coming?

Mr. SERVANCE. It is a door you have to lock, you know, you don’t--it has got a catch there, but you have to lock it, you know, it is not a turn--you know.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, you mean that you can go through that door and then when it closes you--it is not locked unless you turn it?

Mr. SERVANCE. Well, that’s right. See, we can trip it off, you have got a double lock, you understand. You know the doors got a night latch like--you know, but in order to lock that door it has got another lock in there that we turn.

Mr. HUBERT. Let me put it to you this way: Suppose a man uses the key to get through the door from the outside of the building, now, the door closes shut automatically, doesn’t it?

Mr. SERVANCE. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Does it lock so that you need the key to get back inside, or not?

Mr. SERVANCE. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. It does not lock?

Mr. SERVANCE. It does not lock. In order to lock it from the alleyway side so that nobody can come in you have got to turn it. Put the key and turn.

Mr. HUBERT. Otherwise the door is open?

Mr. SERVANCE. That’s right, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, let’s go through that again, because it is very important and I want to get it for sure. That door operates only with a key, that is to say, from the inside. You can’t just use the door without a key from the inside?

Mr. SERVANCE. Let’s put it this way. Once you lock the door you have to have a key to unlock it. Now, see, you shut that door, it catches, but it is not locked. See what I mean? But in order for that door to be locked we have to put a key in there and turn that lock and let that come out and go into that socket, you see?

Mr. HUBERT. So, a man who is going through those doors leading from the municipal building to the alleyway uses the key to open the door to get out into the alleyway. Now, when he leaves and goes down the alleyway and has taken these keys with him, is that door then open so that somebody can come in without a key or do you need a key to get back in again?

Mr. SERVANCE. Well, now, if--usually, if the fellow’s got the key, he usually locks it when he goes out.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, if he locks it back when he got--when he goes out but he didn’t lock it again----

Mr. SERVANCE. You don’t need no key.

Mr. HUBERT. The door is open?

Mr. SERVANCE. You don’t need a key.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know from your own knowledge whether Riggs and Fuqua went through that alley door that morning?

Mr. SERVANCE. I couldn’t say. I mean, I don’t--I mean I don’t recall that. There is a possibility that they could have, but I don’t recall it.

Mr. HUBERT. But you don’t know from your own knowledge?

Mr. SERVANCE. After the excitement came and hollering of the elevators--I mean the sirens going we were watching the armored car being backed to the entrance of that--cars coming out of there from the basement and if they did, I didn’t know it, I mean, I can’t recall it. There is a possibility, but actually to say, I couldn’t say it.

Mr. HUBERT. They were in uniforms, too?

Mr. SERVANCE. Yes, sir; they were in uniforms and working around there. In fact, Riggs was in both of the buildings, you know. He was a porter there that day for certain, and he had access of those things. What he did--I mean, I only seen him there, and he disappeared, I didn’t notice it.

Mr. HUBERT. There is one other way you can go down from the municipal building to the basement, and that is through the fire escape, that is to say, the door to the main floor of the municipal building is not locked, and you can get to the staircase that way, can’t you?

Mr. SERVANCE. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. And the door at the bottom of the stairway, which is the entrance of the basement is always open so that you can get into the basement?

Mr. SERVANCE. Not the weekends. You have to--you can come out, but you can’t go in.

Mr. HUBERT. That’s what I mean. You can go in from the municipal building. You can go through the fire escape doors?

Mr. SERVANCE. That’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. They are not locked?

Mr. SERVANCE. They are locked; yes.

Mr. HUBERT. They are locked on Sundays?

Mr. SERVANCE. Locked on Sundays, but, you see, you can come out, you have a big bar that you can mash and come out of but you lock it and you can’t go in.

Mr. HUBERT. Am I right in saying then that from the municipal floor, first floor of the municipal building----

Mr. SERVANCE. That’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. You cannot go into the staircase?

Mr. SERVANCE. Not during the weekend. They keep it locked, or either at night.

Mr. HUBERT. Always locked?

Mr. SERVANCE. Always locked, but you can always come out of there.

Mr. HUBERT. Yes; in other words, if you are in the staircase itself, you can come out?

Mr. SERVANCE. Come out, that’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. But, a man on the first floor of the municipal building can’t go from the first floor to the basement by use of that staircase, can he?

Mr. SERVANCE. Yes; inside he can.

Mr. HUBERT. No; once they get inside the staircase, yes, but suppose he is standing on--in the lobby on the first floor, can he get through those fire escape doors and get into the staircase and then go down and out into the basement?

Mr. SERVANCE. Well, now, let me kind of clear this. You see, you have three sets of those. You have two in the building, and one that comes on the outside on the Commerce Street side. Is that the one you are speaking of?

Mr. HUBERT. No; I am thinking of the one in the main lobby.

Mr. SERVANCE. Well, in the main lobby, if you are in the main lobby you can through the door, go in the door, down from the staircase, on down in the basement and go out, but you couldn’t come in.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, let me put it to you----

Mr. SERVANCE. Yes; you can come in. You can go out or come in. See, those doors are not locked up there.

Mr. HUBERT. That’s what I thought. You said that door is locked on weekends, but you wish to correct that now?

Mr. SERVANCE. Yes, sir; here’s what I was speaking of, now, when you get in the basement, when you go down to the basement those doors are locked as far as coming in.

Mr. HUBERT. From the basement?

Mr. SERVANCE. From the basement, that’s right. In other words, if you are in the basement you cannot use that fire escape door to get into that staircase; that’s right, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. But, if you are in the staircase you can get into the basement. Now, the doors to the main floor of the municipal building leading to the staircase that we are talking about, are not closed, they are not locked, are they?

Mr. SERVANCE. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, I think a little earlier you testified that they were locked and the only way you can use them would be coming from the staircase into the first floor of the municipal building, and I want to get it straight as to whether or not you can use the opposite direction or, go from the first floor of the municipal building into the staircase----

Mr. SERVANCE. Wait a minute. Now, let’s see here--try to correct it best I can. Let’s say I am out there in that corridor there, and we’ll say--we’ll just assume that that is the corridor there in the city hall.

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Mr. SERVANCE. All right.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, now----

Mr. SERVANCE. And assume that the room we are in is the staircase room. All right, anywhere you are on the first floor, or any of those floors you can always go into those staircases, fire escapes, none of those are not locked.

Mr. HUBERT. Except the basement?

Mr. SERVANCE. Except the basement where you come out, that’s right. None of them are not locked, I am sorry, I got confused there.

Mr. HUBERT. I think that is right. You can go from the corridor into the staircase on the first floor, because those doors do not lock?

Mr. SERVANCE. That’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, once you get into the staircase on the first floor you can go down into the basement and go through the basement door into the basement, but you couldn’t come through the door from the basement because it is locked?

Mr. SERVANCE. Yes, sir; on the weekends; yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. I think that is straight now. You said there was another fire-escape door?

Mr. SERVANCE. One more.

Mr. HUBERT. Where is that?

Mr. SERVANCE. That is the one where we were standing there, when--one comes out of the building through the entrance right there.

Mr. HUBERT. Leads----

Mr. SERVANCE. On the Commerce side.

Mr. HUBERT. Leads to the fire-escape stairway?

Mr. SERVANCE. Well, it is a fire-escape stairway.

Mr. HUBERT. And it operates exactly on--like the other one we are talking about?

Mr. SERVANCE. And it ends there on the first floor.

Mr. HUBERT. Doesn’t go down into the basement?

Mr. SERVANCE. Doesn’t go down into the basement.

Mr. HUBERT. I see. So, that if you were on the first floor of the municipal building that staircase that we are talking about on the Commerce Street side does not lead you to the basement?

Mr. SERVANCE. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. The one we are talking about before is on the Main Street side of the elevator?

Mr. SERVANCE. Yes, sir; you see, you got to--you go in front of the hall, and you have got a cross corridor there.

Mr. HUBERT. Two corridors that cross each other?

Mr. SERVANCE. Yes, sir; and on each corridor there is a door comes from--winds around and so it comes down.

Mr. HUBERT. But, only one of them goes to the basement?

Mr. SERVANCE. Only one goes to the basement.

Mr. HUBERT. The only one that goes to the basement is the one we are talking about?

Mr. SERVANCE. That’s right, only one, that’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. The other fire escape stops at the first floor?

Mr. SERVANCE. Stops at the main floor and do not go down into the basement.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, all right, I think that it is clear. Now, has there been any conferences between you, Mr. Servance, and any member of the President’s Commission prior to this deposition?

Mr. SERVANCE. No, sir; nobody.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you consider that between this document number 5131 which you identified and your deposition that we have the whole story about everything you now know about this matter?

Mr. SERVANCE. That’s right, best of my knowledge.

Mr. HUBERT. All right. Thank you.

TESTIMONY OF A. M. EBERHARDT

The testimony of A. M. Eberhardt was taken at 2:40 p.m., on March 25, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Burt W. Griffin, assistant counsel of the President’s Commission.