Chapter VIII: Part 8

Mr. HUBERT. I show you a document marked previously for identification as 5126, and ask you to identify that document.

Mr. HARDIN. This is a copy of the call sheet taken from the police dispatcher’s tape.

Mr. HUBERT. Whose handwriting appears on that sheet?

Mr. HARDIN. This is my handwriting on this one.

Mr. HUBERT. As I see it, that is sort of a reconstruction, or amendment of the first document, 5125, is that correct?

Mr. HARDIN. Yes, sir; it is.

Mr. HUBERT. There is some data missing from 5125, which is supplied on 5126, is that right?

Mr. HARDIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. And you supplied that missing information by inserting the times, principally, in your own handwriting, which times you obtained from the police tape relevant to this transaction?

Mr. HARDIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. All of that is in your handwriting?

Mr. HARDIN. Yes, sir; it is.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you state now for the record that those times entered on Exhibit 5126, were accurate entries as you gathered them and found out about them from the police log?

Mr. HARDIN. That’s right; yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, I show you the document marked 5127, and ask you if you can identify that.

Mr. HARDIN. That is the ambulance--the call ticket that was made on the call.

Mr. HUBERT. Whose handwriting is that document written in?

Mr. HARDIN. That is my handwriting.

Mr. HUBERT. When was it written?

Mr. HARDIN. Written at the time of the call, or right after the call was made.

Mr. HUBERT. And before you answered the call?

Mr. HARDIN. No, sir; after we had already answered the call and cleared.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, after the person had been brought to the hospital?

Mr. HARDIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. You then executed that form. All right. Now, tell us what you know about what happened on November 24, 1963.

Mr. HARDIN. We were en route to the funeral home from veterans hospital, and we were on the Stemmons Freeway, about a quarter of a mile southwest of Industrial Boulevard, and we received a call that--at 11:21 over the police radio on signal 19, which is a shooting in the basement of the city hall.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you have radio equipment in your car?

Mr. HARDIN. Yes, sir; we do. It is police radio equipment. Hooked up directly with the police dispatcher. Just regular police equipment.

Mr. HUBERT. Is it 2-way?

Mr. HARDIN. Yes; 3-way.

Mr. HUBERT. Three-way?

Mr. HARDIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. What is the third way?

Mr. HARDIN. We can talk to the squads and they can talk back to us and we can talk to the dispatcher and he can talk, and we can talk to the squad and the dispatcher.

Mr. HUBERT. I see. It is customary for you to have that radio machine open and operating when you are traveling?

Mr. HARDIN. Yes, sir; it is.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, tell us what you heard.

Mr. HARDIN. Well, a call came out on signal 19, in the basement.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you know what signal 19 meant?

Mr. HARDIN. Yes, sir; it means shooting.

Mr. HUBERT. How is it identified as being a shooting in the basement?

Mr. HARDIN. They gave us the call as signal 19, in the basement. Code 3, which means emergency, red lights and sirens, and at the time I heard them dispatch three squads, I believe it was, to the basement on this call, and at that time they dispatched us to the call and----

Mr. HUBERT. Who dispatched you?

Mr. HARDIN. This police dispatcher. They phoned--the dispatcher phoned our office, O’Neal’s Funeral Home and he gave our dispatcher the call, and our dispatcher in turn told the police dispatcher we were en route back to the office from the veterans hospital and should be close to that vicinity when the call came out, so, he, in turn gave it to us, used our call number, which is 605, and gave it to us.

Mr. HUBERT. Called 605 and you knew that was you?

Mr. HARDIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. You also knew what the signal 19 was, and what the other signal you mentioned----

Mr. HARDIN. Code 3.

Mr. HUBERT. You knew what that was?

Mr. HARDIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. And I think you have explained all these meanings of signals in the record already?

Mr. HARDIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. What did you do then?

Mr. HARDIN. We, as I say, we were on the Freeway about a quarter of a mile--I guess you would call it southwest--of Industrial and we went on the freeway, from there to Ervay Street, north on Ervay to Main, and then east on Main Street to city hall.

Mr. HUBERT. And you came into the city hall, in your ambulance?

Mr. HARDIN. Came off the Main Street entrance to the city hall.

Mr. HUBERT. Describe for the record what you saw and what you did?

Mr. HARDIN. Now remembering coming into the basement, there were police officers standing there guarding the basement to see nobody got out, and let us go into the basement, and when--and boy, the basement was pretty crowded, a bunch of photographers and newsmen down there, and they were moving this van up the Commerce Street side so we could get in--I mean going up the ramp toward Commerce Street side, best I remember, now, and pulled the ambulance up just south of the--well, I don’t--jail office I guess it would be in there, and stopped the ambulance, and when we got out I started around the back of the ambulance to take the stretcher out, and there was a police officer, I don’t remember who he was or anything, but he must have not recognized me, kind of pushed me back into the crowd. I guess he thought I was someone just coming through, so, just a few seconds until he did recognize me and let me on through----

Mr. HUBERT. By the way, was there anyone with you then?

Mr. HARDIN. Yes, sir; my rider attendant, was with me.

Mr. HUBERT. Who was that?

Mr. HARDIN. Harold Wayne Wolfe.

Mr. HUBERT. Go ahead.

Mr. HARDIN. And I went around to the back of the ambulance, and my rider opened the back door and took the stretcher out, and went into the police or jail office, and we saw Oswald lying on the floor there, and several men around him, and we picked him up and put him on the stretcher and put him in the ambulance, and then there were two or three men, I don’t remember now, got into the back of the ambulance, I believe.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know who they were?

Mr. HARDIN. I believe they were police officers and I believe one of them was Leavelle.

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Mr. HARDIN. I am not sure. And then there was a doctor riding in the seat in the back, there, and then my assistant was in the front seat.

Mr. HUBERT. How did you know the man was a doctor?

Mr. HARDIN. I have seen him at Parkland Hospital several times and city hall, too, and recognized him as being a doctor.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know his name?

Mr. HARDIN. Sir?

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know his name?

Mr. HARDIN. No, sir; I don’t know his name. He was in here just before us.

Mr. HUBERT. Let the record show that Dr. Fred Bieberdorf was in the hall with the witness, Mr. Hardin, and appeared in this room where this deposition is being taken just before Mr. Hardin came in. All right.

Mr. HARDIN. And we got him in the car, or ambulance, they drove the armored truck on out of the basement on the Commerce Street side, and we went out behind the truck. Of course, the truck was there when we left, and then went east on Commerce to the expressway, and north on the expressway to Elm and then west on Elm to Harwood and north on Harwood to Harry Hines, and north on Hines to Parkland.

Mr. HUBERT. And what happened when you got to Parkland?

Mr. HARDIN. When we got to Parkland we went in the emergency entrance, pulled around there, backed up to the dock. Of course, it was pretty crowded there, too. People had, I guess, saw the thing on television and came out there to see us when we came in with him, and as soon as we got--took him out of the car, took him into the emergency room--we got to the hall of the emergency room itself, and they put him on one of their tables from our carriage, and we cleared from the call, but there was a few minutes before we cleared.

We were waiting in the hall because it was so crowded that we couldn’t get through, so we waited in the hall and I imagine it was about an hour, from the time we got the call before the time we cleared. I believe it was an hour and 9 minutes, if I am not mistaken.

Mr. HUBERT. Would it help you if you looked at Exhibit No. 5127, to determine the time of the call?

Mr. HARDIN. Well----

Mr. HUBERT. As far as the time of the clearance of the call?

Mr. HARDIN. Yes, sir; the call was at 11:21, and cleared at 12:30, and I believe it took 9 minutes from the time we got the call on the air until we were at Parkland with him.

Mr. HUBERT. How did you determine that the call came in at 11:21?

Mr. HARDIN. That is the time that I believe the call came into our office.

Mr. HUBERT. That is what you have on Exhibit 5127?

Mr. HARDIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. What I mean by that is that Exhibit 5127 was prepared in your handwriting, but insofar as that time is concerned it was taken off Exhibit 5125, was it not?

Mr. HARDIN. Yes, sir; that’s correct.

Mr. HUBERT. There is no mechanism there in the ambulance itself which fixes the time of a call?

Mr. HARDIN. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. No timeclock or anything?

Mr. HARDIN. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, during all the time you were with Oswald, from the moment you saw him until the moment he was taken over by the hospital, did he say anything at all?

Mr. HARDIN. No, sir; not that I could hear.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember the name of the patient that you all had delivered to Veterans Hospital?

Mr. HARDIN. No, sir; I don’t.

Mr. HUBERT. Where had you taken him from?

Mr. HARDIN. Let’s see, I’m trying to think. I don’t--we make so many calls that I--just hard to remember exactly where I had picked him up.

Mr. HUBERT. Man or woman?

Mr. HARDIN. It was a man. He was----

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember where you picked him up from?

Mr. HARDIN. No, sir; that is what I was trying to think.

Mr. HUBERT. Nor do you remember his name?

Mr. HARDIN. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. What was the number of the car you were driving?

Mr. HARDIN. 605.

Mr. HUBERT. You don’t normally cruise around, do you?

Mr. HARDIN. No, sir; we don’t. As soon as we clear from a call we go right back to our station. From the time we received the call until the time we checked out at the city hall, it was just 2 minutes, according to their tape.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know what the significance of the code 5, code 6 and so forth is on Exhibit 5126?

Mr. HARDIN. Yes, sir. Code 5 means en route to the scene; code 6 means at the location.

Mr. HUBERT. And there is another code on Exhibit 5126, that means time of departure from the jail?

Mr. HARDIN. En route to the hospital.

Mr. HUBERT. And code 6 on to that would be arrival at the hospital?

Mr. HARDIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. And 13 means is cleared, in the sense is that you were dismissed about an hour later?

Mr. HARDIN. It all was a little while before that. I don’t believe we cleared at the hospital. I think I came on back to the funeral home from the hospital without clearing, because if I am not mistaken, I believe those phones were all tied up at the hospital and I couldn’t get to one of them.

Mr. HUBERT. Anyhow, from the time you got the call over the radio until the time you got to the hospital, was exactly 10 minutes?

Mr. HARDIN. Let’s see. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And you got to the jail 3 minutes after you got the call, approximately, right?

Mr. HARDIN. Yes, sir. Well, from the time we got the call until we got to the jail, and--let’s see, in 2 minutes, because we actually received the call at 11:21 and the call from the dispatcher to us at 11:22.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, code 5, on Exhibit 5126, code 5 indicating that 11:22 is the time they put it on the air to you?

Mr. HARDIN. Is the time it was given to us.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, I’ll ask you to look at Exhibit 5125, and tell me if you recognize the handwriting on the bottom part of that exhibit by the printed word “oxygen and remarks.”

Mr. HARDIN. No, sir; that handwriting, I don’t recognize.

Mr. HUBERT. All right. Now, is there anything further you want to add to this?

Mr. HARDIN. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. About all you know about it?

Mr. HARDIN. Yes, sir; that’s it.

Mr. HUBERT. Have you been interviewed by any member of the Commission other than myself prior to the taking of this deposition?

Mr. HARDIN. No, sir; I haven’t.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, during the interview that you had with me immediately prior to the taking of this deposition, was anything brought out material nature which has not been covered in this deposition?

Mr. HARDIN. No, sir; not that I know of, not that I can remember.

Mr. HUBERT. All right. Do you know of any inconsistencies between what you testified here in this deposition and the matter as to which we look about during the interview which proceeded the deposition?

Mr. HARDIN. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, thank you very much.

TESTIMONY OF C. E. HULSE

The testimony of C. E. Hulse was taken at 4:30 p.m., on April 1, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr., assistant counsel of the President’s Commission.

Mr. HUBERT. This is the deposition of Officer C. E. Hulse. Mr. Hulse, my name is Leon Hubert, and I am a member of the advisory staff of the General Counsel of the President’s Commission. Under the provisions of the Executive Order 11130, dated November 29, 1963, the Joint Resolution of Congress No. 137, and the rules of procedure adopted by the Commission in conformance with this joint resolution and the Executive order, I have been authorized to take the sworn deposition of you. I state to you that the general nature of the Commission’s inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate, and report upon the facts relating to the assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of Lee Harvey Oswald.

In particular to you, Mr. Hulse, the nature of the inquiry today is to determine the facts that you know about the death of Oswald and any other pertinent facts you may know about the general inquiry, and more particularly, about your actions with respect to putting the radio call on the air and so forth.

Now, you have appeared here by virtue of a general request made by Mr. J. Lee Rankin, General Counsel of the Commission. Under the rules adopted by the Commission, you are normally entitled to a 3-day written notice before you are required to testify, but the rules also provide you can waive that notice if you wish to do so. So, I ask you now if you are willing to waive the 3-day notice that you would normally be entitled to?

Mr. HULSE. I do.

Mr. HUBERT. Will you rise, and raise your right hand so as to be sworn. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony that will be given in this matter will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. HULSE. I do.

Mr. HUBERT. Will you state your name, please.

Mr. HULSE. C. E. Hulse.

Mr. HUBERT. Your age?

Mr. HULSE. Thirty-one.

Mr. HUBERT. Where do you live, sir?

Mr. HULSE. 7825 Gayglen.

Mr. HUBERT. Dallas?

Mr. HULSE. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. What is your occupation, sir?

Mr. HULSE. Policeman, city of Dallas.

Mr. HUBERT. How long have you been so employed?

Mr. HULSE. Six years.

Mr. HUBERT. On November 24, 1963, were you on duty?

Mr. HULSE. Yes, sir; I was.

Mr. HUBERT. What were your specific duties on that day?

Mr. HULSE. Radio dispatcher.

Mr. HUBERT. What does that mean that you do?

Mr. HULSE. Dispatch all calls in the city of Dallas which come through on the telephone lines.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, you mean that you can get into radio communication with moving vehicles and other places through special channels?

Mr. HULSE. That’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. What channel were you using, do you remember?

Mr. HULSE. Using channel 1.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know Mrs. Frances Cason?

Mr. HULSE. Yes, I do.

Mr. HUBERT. Who is she?

Mr. HULSE. She is a telephone operator for the city of Dallas Police Department.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, I invite you to look at the document before you which has been marked for identification as: “Dallas, Texas, April 1, 1964. Exhibit 5135, deposition of Frances Cason and C. E. Hulse,” and ask you whether or not you have signed it?

Mr. HULSE. Yes, I have.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, would you tell us what part you played with reference to the activities reflected by Exhibit 5135?

Mr. HULSE. I dispatched this shooting call to 118, and also dispatched the same call to ambulance 605, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, can you recall how you got the information, or where you got the information as to the shooting of Oswald?

Mr. HULSE. To the best of my knowledge, I don’t remember who told me that that he had been shot. Some other officer, or some other telephone clerk in the dispatcher’s office told me that he had been shot.

Mr. HUBERT. Is it possible that Mrs. Cason----

Mr. HULSE. It is quite possible that she did.

Mr. HUBERT. How would she do it? Were you in the same office with her?

Mr. HULSE. No, now, I was in another office which is divided by a plate glass, but we also have an intercom system and it is quite possible she told me through the intercom system that Oswald had been shot.

Mr. HUBERT. When you heard that, what did you do?

Mr. HULSE. I knew that she had already ordered an ambulance. I knew 605 had just cleared from a previous call. Best I can remember I asked her what ambulance was going, what ambulance had been ordered and she told me 607.

Mr. HUBERT. All right.

Mr. HULSE. I knew that 605 would probably be closer to the basement, and I disregarded 607, and ordered 605 on the air.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, now, how did you know that 605 was nearby?

Mr. HULSE. When he heard the call come out on the shooting in the basement, the best I can remember, he told me he was probably closer to the basement than 607.

Mr. HUBERT. That is to say that you were in radio communication with 605?

Mr. HULSE. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Ambulance 605?

Mr. HULSE. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And he heard the call for ambulance 607?

Mr. HULSE. I am not positive whether he heard--no, he never did dispatch 607 at all. It was handled through the telephone by Mrs. Cason, but he knew that there was an ambulance needed for this shooting victim, and he told me he would probably be closer.

Mr. HUBERT. Than the other?

Mr. HULSE. Than any ambulance. I’m not sure whether he said that he would be closer than 607, but he said closer to the basement than any other ambulance.

Mr. HUBERT. Isn’t it a fact that you had heard ambulance 605, on channel 1, announcing to his own company just shortly before this all happened that he was clear and that you remembered that he was clear and was going back towards his company?

Mr. HULSE. Yes; that is correct. He had just cleared from a previous call, and was en route back to the company, which I presume he would be in the immediate downtown vicinity.

Mr. HUBERT. And isn’t that the reason why you then, realized that 605 had just cleared, as you had heard him clear over your radio, and you realized that he was closer, and that is why you called 605?

Mr. HULSE. Yes; plus that he told me that he would probably be closer himself, on the radio.

Mr. HUBERT. I would like you to look at Exhibit 5135 and tell us what portion of that card is written in your hand?

Mr. HULSE. Just the squad number, which I first dispatched to squad 108. He was on another assignment, so I dispatched it then to 118.

Mr. HUBERT. So, that the column, or block which there is printed the word, “Squad assigned is 108,” and it appears to be scratched out and immediately above it is “118,” is that right?

Mr. HULSE. Yes; that’s correct.

Mr. HUBERT. All in your handwriting?

Mr. HULSE. All that.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, I notice that there is printed on that card by what apparently is a timeclock two figures, “time dispatched C-11:22, November 24,” would you explain what you had to do with that, if anything?

Mr. HULSE. The time dispatched, the time that it is explained here, 11:22, November 24, is the time that I actually dispatched the call to 108, and then finding out he was on another assignment, I dispatched it also to 118.

Mr. HUBERT. Below there there is a block called, “time clear, 1:49 p.m., November 24,” would you explain that, please?

Mr. HULSE. That is the time that squad 118 cleared from the assignment.

Mr. HUBERT. And they advised you of that and you put the card in the timeclock, is that right?

Mr. HULSE. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, this Exhibit 5135, was actually prepared by Mrs. Cason, was it not?

Mr. HULSE. Yes; it was.

Mr. HUBERT. And she would have had it stamped in this box called “Ambulance ordered,” and “time received,” isn’t that right?

Mr. HULSE. That’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. Then after she made up the card and had it stamped, how did it get to you?

Mr. HULSE. It is put on a conveyer belt that runs from one room to the radio room, this conveyor belt, and falls into a box, and I pick it up.

Mr. HUBERT. And your--you have your own timeclock there?

Mr. HULSE. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. So, as soon as you have done what you said you did, you slip it into a stamp machine and it automatically stamps the time?

Mr. HULSE. That’s correct.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, I notice that there is an initial in the column right next to the figure “118,” “MJ,” which Mrs. Cason advises was put there by her. Do you know who that refers to?

Mr. HULSE. Yes, sir; the other officer that was working on the radio with me. In this--“MJ” M. J. Jackson, his initials, M. J.

Mr. HUBERT. But, as a matter of fact you handled it?

Mr. HULSE. Yes; I actually handled the dispatching of the call and the ambulance.

Mr. HUBERT. Why didn’t he do it?

Mr. HULSE. Well, at that time Mr. Jackson was fairly new to the radio dispatcher’s office and everything was in such a turmoil there I decided that I would handle all transmissions made on the radio, seeing that he was new to the office and didn’t know quite how to handle the calls under the conditions.

Mr. HUBERT. And in any case, you distinctly remember handling the call which is reflected by this Exhibit 5135?

Mr. HULSE. Yes; I do.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, Officer Hulse, we had an interview now, you and I, did we not, immediately before the beginning of this deposition?

Mr. HULSE. Yes; we did.

Mr. HUBERT. Can you recall anything that was covered in that interview which has not been covered in this deposition?

Mr. HULSE. No; I couldn’t. I believe all has been covered.

Mr. HUBERT. Can you think of any inconsistencies between what was developed in the course of the interview and what was developed in the course of the deposition?

Mr. HULSE. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Have you any other comments that you would like to make concerning this matter of any nature whatsoever?

Mr. HULSE. No, sir; I have told everything I know about it.

Mr. HUBERT. Thank you, sir.

TESTIMONY OF IRA JEFFERSON “JACK” BEERS, JR.

The testimony of Ira Jefferson “Jack” Beers, Jr., was taken at 9:15 a.m., on April 14, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Burt W. Griffin, assistant counsel of the President’s Commission.

Mr. GRIFFIN. First of all, let me introduce myself. My name is Burt Griffin, and I am with the advisory staff of the General Counsel staff of the President’s Commission investigating the Assassination of President Kennedy. I want to tell you a little bit about the Commission, what we are authorized to do and so forth before we actually get into the deposition. The Commission was set up pursuant to Executive order of President Johnson on November 30, 1963, and also pursuant to a joint resolution of Congress which was enacted about the same time. Under these two documents, the Executive order and the joint resolution, the Commission has been authorized to promulgate certain rules and regulations, and under those rules and regulations I have been specifically designated to take your sworn deposition.

I want to tell you a little bit about the general nature of our inquiry. The Commission has been set up to inquire into and evaluate and report back to President Johnson upon the facts relating to the assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent murder of Lee Harvey Oswald, and particularly as to you, Mr. Beers, we are interested in what you know about Jack Ruby and about the events of November 24.

You have been interviewed by the FBI, and we have these interview reports before us, so we have a place to start anyhow in talking about this matter.

You have been asked to appear here by virtue of an oral request which was made by Special Agent Sorrels of the Secret Service. I don’t know whether he made it to you personally or to your employer or how it actually happened. Under the rules of the Commission you are entitled to have a 3-day written notice before you are obligated to appear here.

Mr. BEERS. I did.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right, you got it.

Mr. BEERS. He changed the date and asked me to come this day.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right; fine. But I did want to make clear to you that if there have been any irregularities or anything that you prefer to have a different time, we could discuss that. But I presume that you are satisfied since you are here?

Mr. BEERS. That is all right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Fine. Also under the rules of the Commission you are entitled to appear here with an attorney, and we actually encourage people to have attorneys, if they so desire, although many of the people, in fact most of them, don’t appear with an attorney. I see you are not here with an attorney, and I take it that is because you don’t desire one. But if you do for any reason feel you would like an attorney, please let us know and we can defer your deposition or interrupt it, whatever the case might be. I ask if you have any questions about what is involved here before I ask you to be sworn?

Mr. BEERS. I have no questions whatsoever.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Okay, would you raise your right hand, then.

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. BEERS. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you state for the record your full name.

Mr. BEERS. Ira Jefferson Beers, known as Jack.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you tell us when you were born, Mr. Beers?

Mr. BEERS. July 14, 1923.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where do you live presently?

Mr. BEERS. I live at 10913 Joaquin Drive.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that here in Dallas?

Mr. BEERS. Dallas.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What is your occupation?

Mr. BEERS. Photographer with the Dallas Morning News.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long have you been employed with the Dallas Morning News?

Mr. BEERS. A little over 14 years.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I take it you have been a photographer?

Mr. BEERS. Since 1942; yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now I want to hand you a document which I have marked Dallas, Tex., April 14, 1963, Ira J. Beers’ Exhibit 5350. This purports to be a copy of an FBI interview report. The interview took place, according to this report, on November 30, 1963, between you and two Special Agents of the FBI, Mr. Pinkston and W. Harlan Brown. I want to hand you this and ask you if you have had a chance to read it?

Mr. BEERS. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have any additions or corrections that you would want to make in that. What I am referring to here right now in particular is whether you feel that that report accurately reflects everything that you told the bureau on the date of that interview?

Mr. BEERS. With one minor exception. Shall I just read?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you read the sentence that you feel is wrong?

Mr. BEERS. “He is acquainted with Ruby both by name and by sight since about 18 months ago. He was assigned as a cameraman with Dale Bayse, a reporter for the Dallas News, on a story Bayse was doing on a stripper school being run by Jack Ruby.

“This story was for a magazine ...”--I would like to make clear this was not an assignment by the Dallas News.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I see.

Mr. BEERS. That is the only thing I think of in this particular report.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Fine. Now I am going to hand you what has been marked Dallas, Tex., April 14, 1963, Ira J. Beers’ Exhibit 5351. This is also an FBI interview report. This interview took place on December 3, 1963, here in Dallas, and purports to be a report of an interview between you and two other Special Agents of the FBI, Mr. James C. Kennedy and Will Hayden Griffin. I am going to hand you this Exhibit 5351, and ask you the same question as I asked with respect to 5350?

Mr. BEERS. Yes; I have seen this report.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Are there any additions?

Mr. BEERS. Yes, sir; there is a couple in here. Let me locate them. One, which is probably a minor one, speaking of myself: “He also stated that there were two armored vehicles, one in the basement and one near the driveway from the Commerce side.” I think possibly the agent misunderstood what I said there. There was only one armored vehicle. That was in the basement driveway near the Commerce Street side. There was another vehicle, police car, parked in the basement right near the entrance.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now that is a runover sentence from the first page of the report to the second page of the report, is that right?

Mr. BEERS. Yes; that’s correct.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you want to correct the sentence?

Mr. BEERS. “Beers did not know Ruby prior to the shooting, nor did he know Oswald ...” et cetera. This is contradictory to the first report that you just handed me a moment ago. Apparently the agent must have misunderstood me or misread his notes or something. I did know who Ruby was prior to this shooting.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I wonder if you would want to make a change in ink in that sentence which would reflect accurately what you said, then initial the change that you make and date it?

Mr. BEERS. Let me ask you a question here. Shall I say this sentence is contradictory to that report, or just change it to that I did know Ruby prior?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. BEERS. [Making change.] I have written here “I did know Ruby prior to the shooting, as stated to the FBI in report dated November 30, 1963, Exhibit 5350.” Would you like me to initial this?

Mr. GRIFFIN. If you would, please, and then date it?

Mr. BEERS. [Initialing.] This is April 14?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; are there any other additions or corrections?

Mr. BEERS. So far as I can see, there are no further corrections.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Okay. Well if we go along and something occurs to you, we can change it even further. Let me ask you, Mr. Beers, where were you at the time President Kennedy was shot?

Mr. BEERS. I was on Dallas News property between the parking lot probably and my photographic studio.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When you heard that President Kennedy had been shot, what did you do?

Mr. BEERS. I was in my photo lab in the process of finishing films of the arrival at Love Field, and a lab man who works with us told me that the President had been shot, and I immediately thought he was making some sort of joke and I continued to turn out my picture of his arrival at Love Field. And I told the fellow, “Well, go ahead with your joke.” And he said, “No; that is right, the President has been shot.” And he just turned around and walked out. And I still didn’t believe him. In a few minutes our intercom between the city desk came on, and I was told to report to the Texas School Book Depository Building, that they thought they had the man that shot the President in the corner there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you go to the Texas School Book Depository?

Mr. BEERS. A few minutes later, I did. It sort of stunned me. I guess I didn’t quite realize. I said, “Okay,” and I kept standing there working on my prints. And just a couple or 3 minutes, our city editor came back and he said, “Get the hell out and go over to the Depository.” And I arrived at the School Book Depository about 5 minutes later.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What time would you say it was when you got there?

Mr. BEERS. I don’t know. It would be shortly after noon sometime. I have lost complete track of time for a good length of time.

Mr. GRIFFIN. About how long would you say it was after you first heard the President had been shot?

Mr. BEERS. Probably 20 minutes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, when you got there, did you go into the building?

Mr. BEERS. No, sir; I did not. As I arrived, there was quite a crowd of people gathered around the building, and so some officers brought a disheveled looking man from the building, and I thought this probably was the person, so I ran over and made a picture, and then went over to the building. This time the building was sealed off and no one was allowed to enter.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did you remain there at the School Book Depository?

Mr. BEERS. I remained at the School Book Depository for 2 or 3 minutes, and I heard the report that an officer had been shot in Oak Cliff. I ran back to my car, which was parked on Main Street directly across the street from the county jail building, and notified our office by 2-way radio that there was a report of a shooting, that a police officer had been involved, and asked them if they had any information, or if this would probably be linked to the President’s assassination, and they had no information.

I checked the police dispatcher, and the dispatcher didn’t have enough information to tell us, so I was told to remain at the Texas School Book Depository, which I did until sometime quite late in the afternoon, at the time the police had finished their investigation there in the building, and then admitted the press to the building, and we were taken to the sixth floor and allowed to photograph the area where the rifle was found, and shown and allowed to photograph the area in and around the window and make pictures from the window where the assassination was supposedly--where the assassin was supposed to have fired shots from.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you give us an estimate of what time that would have been when you were up there taking the pictures on the sixth floor?

Mr. BEERS. This would be strictly a guess, an estimate. It would be sometime around the vicinity of 4 o’clock. It was quite late in the afternoon. Probably later.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now in your pictures that you took, were any of the objects that were allegedly found up there on the sixth floor photographed, such as the position of the rifle and the placement of the boxes and other materials in the window from which the assassin is believed to have shot?

Mr. BEERS. Yes. Prior to admitting us to the building, I made pictures of a sack, very long narrow sack type of affair that was brought down from there, and a pop bottle and some pieces of chicken, and I also made a picture of the rifle which I believe it was Lieutenant Carl Day from the Dallas police crime lab brought that. And upon going in the building, I photographed the area where the rifle was found. I photographed the area around the window from which the assassin was supposedly seated, and I moved into that area and made a picture from the window, supposedly the window from which the bullets were fired, that showed a little corner of the boxes which possibly the rifle rested on. It shows the street down below where the automobile was traveling when the President was killed.

Mr. GRIFFIN. The photographs that you took up there in the window and on the sixth floor would not at that time have shown the rifle on the sack or the pop bottle, or the chicken?

Mr. BEERS. No, sir. That was shown outside the building.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. Do you still have copies of the photographs?

Mr. BEERS. I do not have copies of the photographs. The negatives are in custody of the managing editor, Mr. Jack Krueger, managing editor of the Dallas News.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know what the newspaper policy is going to be with respect to retention of those negatives?

Mr. BEERS. We planned to keep them in our permanent file. Not with the ordinary run of the mill day-to-day negatives, but they are filed in and will be filed for how long, I do not know, in the managing editor’s office.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I take it from what you have said then, there is perhaps a general file of negatives or photos that were taken on the day of this assassination and the 2 days thereafter, which are going to be kept in a separate spot in your building?

Mr. BEERS. To the best of my knowledge; yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know, for our information, and I don’t know whether we are interested in this or not, do you know if the newspaper has any policy with respect to making those available, if it should turn out the Commission would like to see them?

Mr. BEERS. We have made available everything that we have been requested to so far; yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Fine. Is my understanding correct, that what you have in that file is negatives and not developed photographs, or do you have both?

Mr. BEERS. Primarily negatives. It is possible there are some photographs that are filed either in our biographical file in the managing editor’s department, which we consider to be second prints.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Are these negatives such as they could be easily examined to determine whether they might be of use to us without having to develop them or print them?

Mr. BEERS. That would depend upon whoever examined them; their ability to read negatives.

I am sure, I, or whoever made the pictures, would be glad to sit down and go over and explain to you what is in the negatives and what they show.

Mr. GRIFFIN. After you left the School Book Depository on the 22d, where did you go next?

Mr. BEERS. I returned to the office and turned out my afternoon work.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did you remain there?

Mr. BEERS. Until approximately 7. Maybe 8 o’clock that night.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have occasion to perform any more work for the newspaper that day?

Mr. BEERS. No, sir; we had pretty well closed up for the day by then. I believe this was the day--I am not sure--that--no; I am sorry. This was November the 24th that I was thinking about--referring to.

Mr. GRIFFIN. On the 22d, were there any photographers from your newspaper at the police department?

Mr. BEERS. On November the 22d?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; the day that the President was shot?

Mr. BEERS. I believe that night when Mr. Oswald was apprehended, we had a photographer dispatched to the police station to make photographs up there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know who?

Mr. BEERS. Mr. Bill Wentfre.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you and Mr. Wentfre the only news photographers?

Mr. BEERS. No, sir; we have approximately 10 news photographers at the Dallas News.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I take it that all of the photographs that were taken by all 10 of you photographers that day which had anything to with the assassination would either be in the file that is in your managing editor’s office, or else the negatives to the photographs would be there?

Mr. BEERS. Yes, sir; to the best of my knowledge, we attempted to collect all of those negatives and control them.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have any photographer who was assigned to the Dallas Police Department on a regular basis during those 3 days, the 22d, 23d, and 24th of November?

Mr. BEERS. No, sir; we have a photographer assigned there most of the time, but it was not any one single photographer.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you work on Saturday?

Mr. BEERS. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. The 23d?

Mr. BEERS. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall where you were working that day?

Mr. BEERS. Yes, sir; I worked hours 10 to 7 on Saturday, and I received an assignment to go to the city hall, third floor of the city hall near Captain Fritz’ office, homicide bureau, and to stand by there to photograph whatever might take place or whoever might be brought in or maybe any pictures of Mr. Oswald as he was going up and down the hall.

I arrived there roughly at 10:30 and remained there until roughly 1 o’clock, 1 p.m.

Mr. GRIFFIN. In the afternoon?

Mr. BEERS. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, during the period that you were there, did you see Jack Ruby?

Mr. BEERS. No, sir; I didn’t.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have occasion to return to the police station that day, Saturday?

Mr. BEERS. No, sir; I did not.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did you spend the remainder of Saturday?

Mr. BEERS. I think, I can’t remember exactly where I spent the remainder of Saturday, but I think just on general assignments out of the paper there. On Saturday afternoon it is usually rather quiet, and I possibly, I may have had one or more assignments, but I don’t think so.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, before you left work on Saturday, did you have any instructions as to what you were to do the next day, Sunday?

Mr. BEERS. No; I did not. It was approximately midnight anyway when I left work Saturday night. I had no instructions. And at midnight, I was called to the telephone and told to report to the basement of the city hall Sunday morning at 10 a.m., to photograph the transfer of Lee Harvey Oswald from the city jail to the Dallas County Jail.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What time did you actually arrive there?

Mr. BEERS. I arrived at the city hall just about 9 o’clock.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did you go when you came in?

Mr. BEERS. I went to the basement of the city hall, and then on through the basement out into the police parking area in the basement of the city hall.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you station yourself some place in the parking area?

Mr. BEERS. Yes; I did. I went into the parking area and was in general conversation with various and sundry members of the press who were there for a short while, and I discovered that there was an area along a railing which is on the east side of the driveway that goes through the basement of the city hall, next to some television cameras that would permit one cameraman to be in this area without obstructing the view of the television cameras, so I went to this railing and I stayed there, sitting on this railing until the transfer had started.

When I stood up on the railing and made photographs as Mr. Oswald was being transferred, which included the pictures of Mr. Ruby shooting Mr. Oswald.

Then I remained standing on the railing and shot three or four or so further negatives of the scuffle that was going on.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to hand you--I will turn this around--I am going to hand you what is a diagram of the basement area in the municipal building. I have marked this diagram “Dallas, Texas, April 14, 1964, Ira J. Beers’ Exhibit 5352.”

Let me try to explain it a little bit to you. Here is Commerce Street along the right-hand side, and Main Street along the left-hand side, and near the bottom of the page, is a ramp which says, “down ramp leading from Main Street into the basement area,” and following on up towards Commerce Street you see something marked, “up ramp.”

In this area here is the parking area of the garage. Here is the Police Department Building. Here is the jail office. This is the hallway that comes out from the public elevators near Harwood Street so that if you enter from Harwood you come down to this area, and you go up in the elevators here and walk through this hallway through some double doors, and you would be in the ramp area at the bottom of the basement floor.

Now can you, taking your pen, at the time you took your position on the railing, would you show us where the TV cameras were placed? Can you mark that in rectangles of some sort?

Mr. BEERS. [Marking on map.] These were live TV cameras that I have marked on the east side of the railing, and there was a sound on-film cameraman leaning against the railing right there [pointing].

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now this sound on-film camera, is this something that requires a tripod of some sort?

Mr. BEERS. It may or may not.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall if that one did?

Mr. BEERS. He had a monopod or a unapod, which is a single leg support for the camera.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know who that man was?

Mr. BEERS. Mr. George Phenix with KRLD-TV.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you put a figure 1, at the spot on the railing where you stationed yourself first?

Mr. BEERS. Right here. Actually on the railing [marking.]

Mr. GRIFFIN. You have crossed out one mark and you made a big circle which you blacked in, on the railing.

Mr. BEERS. May I draw an arrow to point where I was standing?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Okay.

Mr. BEERS. So it will be much clearer.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What time would you estimate it was when you stationed yourself at point 1?

Mr. BEERS. Probably 9:15 or 9:20.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did you remain at that position?

Mr. BEERS. According to the time which we received, and which Mr. Ruby shot Mr. Oswald, which would be somewhere around 11:21, or thereabouts, I probably remained there until about 11:25.

Mr. GRIFFIN. So you remained there right at that spot right up until the shooting?

Mr. BEERS. And through the shooting and for a few moments thereafter.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I see.

Mr. BEERS. A few minutes thereafter.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall an automobile moving out of the ramp? I mean out of the garage area and going up the Main Street ramp shortly before Mr. Oswald was shot?

Mr. BEERS. Yes; there was an armored car parked in the driveway near the top of the Commerce Street entrance, and there was a black squad car, I believe I am correct, that backed up the ramp to Main Street in the direction of Main Street. I didn’t look right up there and see what he did. He never came back down the ramp.

Mr. GRIFFIN. This is a car that you recall driving onto Main Street?

Mr. BEERS. It backed up onto Main Street, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I see.

Mr. BEERS. It backed from the basement and backed up Main Street toward what would be the entrance way to the ramp.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Before that car was moved, was backed up onto the Main Street ramp, do you recall any car driving in a forward direction up the Main Street ramp?

Mr. BEERS. No; I don’t.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall how much traffic there was in and out of the basement while you were stationed there?

Mr. BEERS. There was several police cars that came into the basement and out, and if I remember correctly, after this armored car was stationed there. I don’t recall that there were any other squad cars that came into the basement.

The reason I recall them was because they were stopping there just about right where I was standing and looking into the back seats and so forth.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall a TV camera being wheeled into the basement shortly before Jack Ruby shot Oswald?

Mr. BEERS. No, sir; I don’t. A big live camera?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. BEERS. I don’t recall seeing that. I may have, but I don’t recall seeing it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now at the time that Oswald was brought out, do you recall how people were, newspeople and policemen, were stationed in the basement? Do you recall roughly how they were spread out?

Mr. BEERS. Roughly, they were asked to get into somewhat of an L-shaped position here, which would be that the news people would be across the driveway like so, and this area here in front of the cameras was more or less open.

There was some people moving back over here in this area just a little bit, and then from approximately right in front of myself to up this ramp, towards the Commerce Street exit was roughly the position that the, this was the position people were asked to get into, that they assumed that, roughly.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, do you have any recollection if the people were more densely stationed along the Main Street ramp than along the area in front of the entrance to the garage, or vice versa, or were they more densely stationed in front of the garage than elsewhere?

Mr. BEERS. They were probably a little more concentrated right across the ramp.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Main Street ramp?

Mr. BEERS. Not here. They were fairly well strung out this way [pointing]. I couldn’t see too far up this ramp here without leaning out and around and looking up this post, but from my observation, they were fairly well strung out up toward the Commerce Street exit there for a number of feet or yards.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall how many persons deep the people were that were strung across the Main Street ramp?

Mr. BEERS. I am sure that would vary from two to maybe five.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, could there have been as few as 15 people strung across the Main Street ramp?

Mr. BEERS. There was probably more--actually, they came around this corner just a little bit and almost up to this door.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You are pointing towards the entrance of the jail office?