Chapter XXVIII: Part 28

Mr. GRIFFIN. This is 4-14-64. Why don’t you go ahead and take your time to read it through and make any other corrections.

Mrs. CHEEK. I have got to go.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Mrs. Cheek has indicated that her daughter is in the hospital and she told me earlier, and would like to recess this. Perhaps we can set another time to continue it.

Mrs. CHEEK. I thought that I was only going to be here about 15 minutes, and I was supposed to talk to the doctor about that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I don’t want to keep you then. How would Thursday be? Would you be able to come back at any time on Thursday?

Mrs. CHEEK. Could I give you any other kind of information on my records or what else do you want me to tell you?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Actually, if you could bring with you----

Mrs. CHEEK. I can’t bring all those records down here. They are welcome to go out to the house and make a copy of every name I ever rented to, but I can’t bring them all down here.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, suppose we handle it this way.

Mrs. CHEEK. They were welcome that day I gave them every record I had, and I told them they could copy all the names down.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Suppose we contact one of the agents and have somebody photograph these records, and then perhaps next Monday, why we could resume the deposition and I could look through the records with you here and the copies that we have photographed?

Mrs. CHEEK. Do I have to come back?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes, because I would like to talk to you about the statements and get any changes that you care to make in the statements, and complete the topic we are talking about here.

I hate to inconvenience you like this.

Mrs. CHEEK. Well, if I could do you any good, I would be happy to, but I don’t know how I could, because I don’t know Jack Ruby or Oswald very well. In fact, I didn’t know Oswald at all, and I didn’t know Ruby well enough to help you.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, any little bit that we can learn can be helpful to us. But I would like to set it up in a way that wouldn’t interfere with your problems at home. I think they are substantial. Why don’t you name the day and the time.

Mrs. CHEEK. I can’t name the date and the time. I don’t know. I didn’t expect my daughter to be ill when she was. I only thought she was going to the hospital two days.

I work in real estate. I don’t know when I have appointments, and I am trying to sell the place on Hillcrest. I have an appointment this afternoon with the minister out there or one of the men of the church, not the minister, but to try to sell Hillcrest.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, the mornings, I take it, are better for you than the afternoons? Why don’t we make it Monday morning. If 9 o’clock, isn’t too early for you, we will start at 9.

Mrs. CHEEK. How much longer do you think it would take on this?

Mr. GRIFFIN. I don’t think it would take more than a half hour, but sometimes it takes time to have you sit here and read through these statements and point out any corrections or changes or additions that you would have to make, and it could take half an hour to an hour, especially if we get these photographs of the records.

Then we can clarify these on these records. Do you remember which apartment it was that the Cubans lived in?

Mrs. CHEEK. That was 5212 Gaston. I think the front room.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Maybe if we could just get those records copied. Do you remember what year it was that they--you believe it was 1959 or 1960, when you went through those records with the agents? Were you able to pinpoint those to Cubans who you had there?

Mrs. CHEEK. No. I don’t think so. They were looking at the names.

Mr. GRIFFIN. So I suppose it would be best if we just got the records since, say, January 1, 1958 to make sure we cover everything, and that would be 1958 through 1961.

Mrs. CHEEK. I think so. That is when I sold the place.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, up until the sale. Now, do you recall if these two men ever came back and lived in any other place that you owned?

Mrs. CHEEK. I wouldn’t know, because I told you I had managers in my apartment houses and my rooming houses. They did the renting.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I see.

Mrs. CHEEK. Sometimes I rented to people, but----

Mr. GRIFFIN. If we started with January 1, 1958 and got all the records up to the present, how many records, how high a stack of records would we be talking about?

Mrs. CHEEK. I don’t know how high.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How many different apartments would we be talking about since January 1958?

Mrs. CHEEK. I would just have to go back and look, because I buy and sell all the time and trade.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would it be as many as 10?

Mrs. CHEEK. Could have been more than that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Could it have been more than that?

Mrs. CHEEK. Yes. Not places, but apartments. See, I had a 32-unit in Oak Cliff, and there was 46 in the Beachcomber Apartments. Then there was people that rented on Gaston Avenue, but see, I just traded back and forth.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How many different buildings did you own since 1958?

Mrs. CHEEK. I really don’t know. You’d just have to go down at the courthouse and look. I would have to figure it out. 3518 Gillespie, I sold it though.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Maybe what we should do is take 1958 to 1961, and then simply the year 1963, so that we will take 1958 to 1961, for that Gaston building, and we will take 1963 for all these buildings. How many buildings did you own last year, in 1963?

Mrs. CHEEK. 1963, I think 3914 Swiss. I didn’t own some of these buildings all the year. I bought and sold and traded, so I would just have to go into all of that.

I sold it in August. And then maybe I sold 3518 Gillespie. I think I sold it in November. I don’t remember just the dates that I closed on the property and sell.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, I think that would simplify it because we would like, if we can identify these two particular individuals, and it is possible since they lived with you before, they might have moved back into another one that you own.

Mrs. CHEEK. They went over all those records, those men did out there. Mr. Kelley and Mr. Barry, I thought his name was Barrett. That is what he introduced himself.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Whatever it is down there, Barry.

Mrs. CHEEK. I thought he said Barrett.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Barry is what is written there anyhow.

Mrs. CHEEK. (Reads reports of interviews.)

Mr. GRIFFIN. How would Monday morning at 9 or 9:30 be?

Mrs. CHEEK. If you don’t think it would be very much longer, I think I have missed the doctor, because I have been here an hour.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, since we are going to try to get these records, I would almost rather do it with the records, so if there was something with the records, I wouldn’t have to call you again, unless you are willing to take a chance on that.

Mrs. CHEEK. Aren’t they coming out to the house to take the names down?

Mr. GRIFFIN. I think it would be easier if they went out with a camera and photographed that. All right, would you prefer to complete it?

Mrs. CHEEK. If it wouldn’t take too much longer. I have an appointment at 1.

Mr. GRIFFIN. It shouldn’t take anywhere near that long.

Mrs. CHEEK. I guess I have missed my appointment with the doctor. I wanted to talk to him about my daughter.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you want to call him?

Mrs. CHEEK. May I call?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Sure.

Mrs. CHEEK. (Makes telephone call.)

Mr. GRIFFIN. Mrs. Cheek, have you had a chance to read over what I have marked as Cheek Exhibit No. 5353? It is a three-page report marked 456, 457 and 458, of Commission’s Document No. 205, which purports to be a report of an interview which FBI Agents Barry and Kelley had with you on November 27.

Have you had a chance to read that over?

Mrs. CHEEK. I thought that I read all of this.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Are there any additions or corrections or changes?

Mrs. CHEEK. This is all approximate. I wouldn’t know. I couldn’t swear that everything was right down to the figure, but that is the best of my knowledge about everything.

They have $12,000 down there. I thought I remember $12,500 he wanted, but that may have been another piece of property I was thinking about. I don’t remember the exact figure.

Now on the sale, that was what I was talking about. They had $12,000. I told you today I thought $12,500 is what he wanted.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I take it you weren’t able to get a hold of the doctor?

Mrs. CHEEK. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But other than that, you don’t feel that you would make any substantial changes in this? What I am directing myself to is whether this report is an accurate report of what you told them at that time?

I realize that there may have been things that you will recall that you didn’t recall then, but as far as this report being accurate as to what you told them at that time, I take it you are satisfied that it is accurate?

Mrs. CHEEK. I think it is. I might remember something there that I don’t remember now. I don’t know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now you indicated that you recall having rented to two Cuban males in 1959 and 1960. I understand that these two Cubans were living at 5212 Gaston?

Mrs. CHEEK. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Does that apartment have a name?

Mrs. CHEEK. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How big----

Mrs. CHEEK. It wasn’t an apartment. It was a boarding house; room and board.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How many rooms did you rent out there?

Mrs. CHEEK. I think it was about 10 rooms that I rented out.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who managed that boarding house?

Mrs. CHEEK. I had different managers throughout the year.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, now, in the period 1959 and 1960, who was managing it for you at that time?

Mrs. CHEEK. I would have to look back on my records. Nineteen what, now?

Mr. GRIFFIN. 1959 or 1960?

Mrs. CHEEK. I would have to look back, because managers for boarding houses is like waitresses and cooks, they come and go because you don’t pay them very much.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall when your sister, Mrs. Roberts, was working at or managing your boarding houses?

Mrs. CHEEK. Not the exact date.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall whether she was managing any boarding house for you back in 1959 or 1960?

Mrs. CHEEK. She might have been at 5430. You would have to ask her. I believe you would have a more correct answer on that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is there anything that makes you recall that the two Cubans lived at 5212?

Mrs. CHEEK. I don’t know right now just what brought that up or anything. Now my son was there, I think, while the two FBI men were there, and he might have mentioned it, or my sister might have mentioned it, I don’t remember. There were two Cubans there, I think. They might have been Cuban and they might not have been.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What made you think they were Cubans?

Mrs. CHEEK. I don’t know how they got that they were Cubans, because I don’t know a Cuban from a Spanish or a Spanish from a Mexican. Like Dr. Florescent, when he come in, he was real dark. I wasn’t going to rent because I don’t rent to dark Spanish people or Mexicans or Indians. I always rented to light-colored people my own race. But another color, and he was so well dressed and everything and he insisted--this is in 1948, I think. He came in there from the Philippine Islands. He was going to Baylor Hospital to school.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about the two Cubans?

Mrs. CHEEK. I don’t really know if I would know they were Cubans or not unless someone told me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I take it that it is unusual to have somebody living at your place who is of Spanish or Latin American background?

Mrs. CHEEK. That it would be what?

Mr. GRIFFIN. It would be unusual for you to rent to someone who was Spanish or Latin American or of Cuban background?

Mrs. CHEEK. No, it wouldn’t be unusual, because I had rented to people from Mexico at the Beachcomber, very nice people, when I had short rentals there. They checked in; they were business people; and I had rented to people from, not China, but the Japs.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Japanese?

Mrs. CHEEK. Yes, at the Beachcomber, during the fair. The pearl dealers, I rented to, but on short rentals. And there were just a few that I had a short time at the Beachcomber and I had a set up of maid service and television.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When somebody comes in to rent one of the suites, do they contact you?

Mrs. CHEEK. I had managers there, and sometimes I would be there at the Beachcomber.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you given your managers instructions as to the kind of people that they should rent to?

Mrs. CHEEK. Well, they always know what kind of business they are in or something like that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, can you describe these two people that you thought might have been Cuban?

Mrs. CHEEK. I don’t remember them too well. In fact, I don’t know why they have Cuban down there, because I would have to talk with him again. When they were going over those records----

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did they rent----

Mrs. CHEEK. I know there were some people there, either from, they might have been Mexico or Cuban.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did they rent the same suite?

Mrs. CHEEK. This is not an apartment. This is 5212 Gaston. This is the rooming house.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did each of them have a separate room?

Mrs. CHEEK. No, they both stayed in the same room. In, I think, the front part.

Mr. GRIFFIN. In the front part of the house?

Mrs. CHEEK. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did they stay?

Mrs. CHEEK. I don’t remember. Just take my records and look at them.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I take it when you went through these records with the agents, did you see----

Mrs. CHEEK. Yes, I probably saw those names and I recognized it by that or something. I don’t remember just exactly how I remembered right at that time, because I was trying to remember everything I could all the way back to try to tell them everything I knew.

Mr. GRIFFIN. These two fellows, were they fat or thin?

Mrs. CHEEK. They were small, I think.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did they appear to be men in their 20’s or 30’s or 40’s or 50’s?

How old would you say they were?

Mrs. CHEEK. The two boys that were in the front room at 5212 Gaston were younger fellows.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Under 25, would you say?

Mrs. CHEEK. I don’t know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did they speak English?

Mrs. CHEEK. I don’t know. I guess they speak it very well, enough to get in. I never rented to anyone that couldn’t speak English.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did they speak with a noticeable accent?

Mrs. CHEEK. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did they appear to have a job of any sort?

Mrs. CHEEK. I don’t remember. I am just trying to remember all, you know. That is a long time back, and renting to so many people, you don’t pay that much attention to them.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How often did you have occasion to talk with them?

Mrs. CHEEK. I never do talk to people unless they talk to me about something about the business, or the room, or something like that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. These two fellows, do you recall ever talking to them on any occasion?

Mrs. CHEEK. I can’t remember holding a conversation with them, no.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You indicated that your son was present when the Agents Barry and Kelley interviewed you. Did he have some recollection of these two Cubans?

Mrs. CHEEK. John might have. I think John was there. I believe he was, or Irwin.

Mr. GRIFFIN. These are both your sons?

Mrs. CHEEK. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is their last name Cheek or Cheeks?

Mrs. CHEEK. Cheek.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How old is John?

Mrs. CHEEK. He is 18.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And how about Irwin?

Mrs. CHEEK. Thirteen.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now you also indicated in your first report that you had been acquainted with Jack Ruby since 1948. What makes you place that date?

Mrs. CHEEK. They asked me--when, 1948?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; that is what they reported here.

Mrs. CHEEK. I didn’t say 1948. I bought the house in 1948, and it might have been 1956. They have that 1956 down there of me buying 5212 Gaston.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mrs. CHEEK. I didn’t meet Jack Ruby in 1948. 1948 is when I bought 5212. They have the dates mixed up there.

And then 1956 or 1957, I might have went down there to the club, but I don’t think I knew him in 1948, at all.

Mr. GRIFFIN. This report also indicates that you formerly operated night clubs in Dallas?

Mrs. CHEEK. No; I told them that I went down and operated a club, just managed a club for Frank and Virginia Nick on Browder Street.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What was the name of that night club?

Mrs. CHEEK. Pat Morgan had the club at that time.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What was the name of the club?

Mrs. CHEEK. Club Royal is what Virginia and Frank Nick named it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. R-o-y-a-l?

Mrs. CHEEK. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was that the name of the club when you were employed there?

Mrs. CHEEK. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When was that?

Mrs. CHEEK. February of 1963, I believe it was, this past year.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But prior to 1963, had you ever been connected with the night club business in any way?

Mrs. CHEEK. No; nothing, only my husband was a musician. He played nightclubs and I went there with him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he play in Dallas nightclubs?

Mrs. CHEEK. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was this Mr. Cheek?

Mrs. CHEEK. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you a performer or anything?

Mrs. CHEEK. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long was he a musician in Dallas? For what period of time?

Mrs. CHEEK. He was a musician before I married him. He just had it as a hobby. He worked at National Cash Register, and played on Friday and Saturday nights to pick up extra money.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I see; you came to Dallas, you said, 18 years ago? 1946?

Mrs. CHEEK. 1947.

Mr. GRIFFIN. 1947. Were you married to Mr. Cheek at that time?

Mrs. CHEEK. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When did you marry Mr. Cheek?

Mrs. CHEEK. 1947.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right, from 1947 to 1955, did Mr. Cheek play these weekend jobs in nightclubs?

Mrs. CHEEK. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was he employed regularly on weekends?

Mrs. CHEEK. He played with Harry Traveler’s Band, and I don’t remember the other names of the bands he played with, but he might have set in on some. You would have to ask him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he ever play in any of Jack Ruby’s clubs?

Mrs. CHEEK. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. So your connection with the night club business prior to 1963, was solely through your husband’s association as a musician and your going to the night clubs with him?

Mrs. CHEEK. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you used to go regularly on the nights that he played?

Mrs. CHEEK. Most every Saturday night or Friday with him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, you indicated here also that on the last occasion that you saw Jack Ruby at the Carousel Club, that you spent several hours discussing this investment with him?

Mrs. CHEEK. I think I put down there two or three hours. About 2 until maybe 4:30, something like that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Can’t you give us any more idea about what he had for this club, what kind of club it was going to be? You said you talked with the interior decorator?

Mrs. CHEEK. I let him talk.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did he say?

Mrs. CHEEK. I don’t remember all they said.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Can’t you tell us some more about what he said? You were there for a couple of hours. He must have described----

Mrs. CHEEK. He talked to other people while I was there. He would go in and out of the office, and he would indicate to me he was talking long distance and talking to other people that come in his club. And then he would come back and talk some more.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he make any long distance telephone calls while you were there?

Mrs. CHEEK. Yes; but I don’t know when he made them.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he hold these conversations in his office?

Mrs. CHEEK. He was in the office, and then in the club, and then he came a few minutes, and then I came on home.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Your best recollection is, it was from about 2 o’clock in the afternoon until about sometime after 4:00 that afternoon?

Mrs. CHEEK. I think so.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you happen to place the time? Anything significant?

Mrs. CHEEK. I think it was; I remember the time I was down there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. It was a 2 o’clock appointment?

Mrs. CHEEK. Yes. Around 2:00 or 2:30.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember how many long distance telephone calls he made?

Mrs. CHEEK. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he talk to you about any of the business enterprises that he had?

Mrs. CHEEK. He told me about other businesses he had and how many he had been in, but I don’t remember exactly. I just listened to him and I wasn’t interested really in putting in $6,000 and him putting in $1,000, and I was just listening to the man talk and getting his ideas on a lot of things that he had in mind for clubs that he was talking about, and I didn’t I wasn’t really interested in what he did in the past or what clubs he was connected with. That is why I don’t remember, you know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You also indicated that you thought at first when you saw Lee Harvey Oswald’s photograph on television, that you might have rented to him. What made you think that?

Mrs. CHEEK. I noticed a lot of people you can walk down the street or be introduced to a person and think I have met them before. Well, I was trying to remember back if I had ever seen the man before in Dallas.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did you think you might have seen him?

Mrs. CHEEK. I didn’t know. Just like have you ever, you know, met a person and thought you had seen them before?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mrs. CHEEK. Well, that is the way I thought I was trying to remember where I had seen him before, and probably I had seen him so many times on TV that day until I thought maybe I had rented to him, and I thought if I had, I would look it up and turn it in.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me ask you this. Where were you when you first heard that President Kennedy had been shot?

Mrs. CHEEK. In my apartment at 3914 Swiss, Apartment 2.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you do that day?

Mrs. CHEEK. What did I do that day?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes, Ma’am.

Mrs. CHEEK. I was waiting for the plumber to fix some plumbing there at the apartment house. That is where I was living. I don’t remember all the things I did that day.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you remain there all day and watch TV all day?

Mrs. CHEEK. I just turned it on when the plumber wanted--he said the President is in the city and he said, “Let’s look at TV a little,” he said, “I haven’t listened to any of the news.”

So his name is Louis Zmolik and I turned on the TV.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you continue to watch television the rest of the day, or did you go back to your business?

Mrs. CHEEK. Watched it off and on. I was answering the phone, talking on the phone.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember if there were business calls that you had or social calls, or talking with people about the assassination, or what?

Mrs. CHEEK. Well, they might have been business calls, some of them and some I was talking about how terrible it was the President had been killed, what an awful thing.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did your sister call you that day?

Mrs. CHEEK. No; I don’t think she did. I didn’t learn that, I think, until someone else called me to watch TV, that she had been on TV. I didn’t see her on TV.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did your sister appear? Was she interviewed on Television?

Mrs. CHEEK. Someone said that she was, and my sister in Tyler said she was.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see her interviewed on TV?

Mrs. CHEEK. No; I didn’t.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What day was that? Was that on Friday, the day the President was killed, or was it on Saturday?

Mrs. CHEEK. The President, I think, was killed wasn’t he, on the 22d of November, Washington’s Birthday? I remembered that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. The 22d of February is Washington’s birthday.

Mrs. CHEEK. I mean November.

Mr. GRIFFIN. It was Friday, the 22d.

Mrs. CHEEK. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was that the day that Mrs. Roberts appeared on television, or was it a later date?

Mrs. CHEEK. I don’t know. I never did see her on TV.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about the next day on Saturday?

Mrs. CHEEK. I got the newspaper and saw the next morning, I think, where her picture was in the paper, but I didn’t talk to her until--yes, she called me, my sister called me on Swiss Avenue. I have a sister living on Swiss. She called me and told me, I think, that Earlene was on TV, and we talked the next morning about it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now on Saturday, do you recall what you did on Saturday the 23d?

Mrs. CHEEK. Sure can’t, not right off.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you spend all day watching television?

Mrs. CHEEK. No; I didn’t spend all day watching TV. I just happened to turn on the TV because Mr. Zmolik asked me to turn on the TV that day. I don’t know what I was doing. I was probably cleaning the house, because I didn’t have a maid.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I take it you were probably in and out?

Mrs. CHEEK. Yes; cleaning the apartment, and sometimes I even cleaned the apartments myself.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about Sunday morning, the 24th, do you recall what you were doing the morning of the 24th?

Mrs. CHEEK. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall when it was you first learned that Jack Ruby had shot Lee Oswald?

Mrs. CHEEK. No; I don’t.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I want to hand you what I have marked “Dallas, Texas, 4-14-64, Bertha Cheek, Exhibit 5354.”

This consists of two pages of an interview report which is marked Commission’s Document 86, Page 132, and 80, Page 133.

It is a copy of a report made by Special Agent David Barry of the FBI, with you, Mrs. Cheek, on December 9, 1963.

I want you to read that over and I will ask you the same questions with respect to that as I asked with the previous report. That is, would you make any additions or corrections on that?

If you felt that that is an accurate report of the interview you had with Agent Barry?

Mrs. CHEEK. I had bought and sold in the nightclubs, no. I didn’t say that. I didn’t mean to give them the impression, if they got that impression, that I had bought and sold nightclubs. No. I told them about Maple Avenue, you know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me see what portion of the report you are referring to.

Mrs. CHEEK. I don’t remember buying and selling nightclubs, but I would, if I could make any money.

Mr. GRIFFIN. This report says on Page 132; “Mrs. Cheek stated that she has been in the real estate business in Dallas, Texas, for a number of years.”

Mrs. CHEEK. That’s right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. “That she frequently has bought and sold interests in nightclubs; that during the past several months she has been attempting to locate a good nightclub investment; and that in this connection she had visited practically every nightclub in Dallas which she considered might be purchased outright or in which an interest might be obtained.”

Mrs. CHEEK. I was interested in buying one, but I hadn’t bought and sold them.

Mr. GRIFFIN. So the only change you would make in the paragraph was to strike out that clause which reads, “that she frequently has bought and sold interests in nightclubs”?

Mrs. CHEEK. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you want to take this pen and put a line through that and initial it?

Mrs. CHEEK. [Complies.]

Mr. GRIFFIN. Why don’t you go ahead and continue to read it and tell us if there are any other changes that you would make?

Mrs. CHEEK. [Reading report.]

Mr. Martin knows Jack Ruby. That name right there, that man might have told Jack Ruby that I was interested in a club. He knows him real well and says Mrs. Grant is his friend, and Jack Ruby, that is the time that I made the appointment to see him about the club.

Well, he said that he had had dinner with Jack Ruby. We were talking about the club over on Oak Lawn.

Mr. GRIFFIN. The Vegas Club?

Mrs. CHEEK. Yes. And he said Jack Ruby was a good friend of his. And he told me about Jack Ruby. That is where I got my information, I remember now.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You talked with him about Ruby. When was your conversation with Martin about Ruby?

Mrs. CHEEK. He was just telling me about a good operator.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When was that?

Mrs. CHEEK. And how he made money.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long before you saw Ruby in November?

Mrs. CHEEK. Just before I went down to the club, you know, and met him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. He said something to you also about Mrs. Grant, Eva Grant?

Mrs. CHEEK. Mr. Martin. He said both were good friends of him, and said Mrs. Grant operated the club on Oak Lawn for Mr. Ruby.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember anything else he told you?

Mrs. CHEEK. I don’t remember all the conversation.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you call this Mr. Martin that said he had dinner with Jack Ruby?

Mrs. CHEEK. Yes; he was a real good friend of his and a real nice fellow, and Mr. Martin said he was in the oil business and he was just kind of playing with that club over there because he liked the nightclub business, and he wanted $25,000 for half interest in it, and I thought it was too much money.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you happen to know Martin?

Mrs. CHEEK. Just looking for clubs, and I saw Mr. Martin’s. I found out who owned the club. I don’t remember just how I found out who owned a place. Sometimes I might go down to the records, if they buy the land, and look to see who owns it. Then I contact them like that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now didn’t you plan to manage this club yourself? Any club that you would buy, didn’t you plan on managing it yourself?

Mrs. CHEEK. I don’t know whether I would or not, or whether I would have someone else to manage it for me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How much of a return did you expect on your investment?

Mrs. CHEEK. I wasn’t thinking about that at the time.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You must have some idea.

Mrs. CHEEK. I didn’t know how much I would invest. I didn’t have very much money to invest. I would have to trade a piece of property or sell a piece. I was looking for clubs or property. If you are talking to people you run into a good bit--buying 5212 Gaston, I put down $600 down, but I paid high payments. I don’t know how much I would invest. I don’t have a whole lot of money. I put small payments down and make high payments a month, you know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Sure, but you want to make sure you are getting more money off your real estate or business investments?

Mrs. CHEEK. When I came to Dallas, I didn’t have very much money. I started managing a place for Mrs. Strong out on Gaston Avenue, and I managed it for her, and she sold me the place for $600 earnest money down.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is the money that you acquired, you use for buying and selling real estate?

Mrs. CHEEK. Buying and selling.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you obtain any money from your husband?

Mrs. CHEEK. No; we worked together those years. He didn’t take anything.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But all the money which was accumulated by you was accumulated through your own efforts?

Mrs. CHEEK. And other people working for me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, when you think about investing money, you decide whether you are going to put that money into some business or whether you are going to leave it in a bank and draw three or four percent interest, don’t you? Don’t you have any idea?

Mrs. CHEEK. I never have enough to leave in the bank to draw interest. I either have it invested or going to invest it, what little I have.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Don’t you ever figure this out in terms of percentage you get or you expect to get on the money that you put up?

Mrs. CHEEK. No; I haven’t.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you decide whether it is going to be a good investment for you or not? Whether it is the kind of investment that you want?

Mrs. CHEEK. I really don’t know. I just trade and sell. That is all I do. I guess I should figure more. Maybe that is why I lost all I did in the Beachcomber, because I just traded that today. I trade 5212 and 5302 for the Beachcomber and the Holiday Apartments on a contract to sell, and probably had I gotten a paper and pencil and had an attorney, I wouldn’t have done that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, is there anything else as you read through that, that you want to change?

Mrs. CHEEK. [Reading.] You know, you talk to people about investments like Jack Ruby, but I have talked to a number of people. You may not just have an idea that you would invest, if you would make some money. I had no idea that I would. This is nothing permanent about this at all. I was just talking to the people, just went down and talked to him just like I talked to Bill Martin. Bill Martin could have killed President Kennedy and it would have been the same thing when I talked to him if he did it.

I was so surprised when I heard that Jack Ruby killed Oswald and all this happened, it just floored me. I thought it was the awfulest thing I had ever heard of. I didn’t figure that man doing such a thing, after talking to him down there. He didn’t seem like a criminal.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What kind of man did he seem like?

Mrs. CHEEK. He seemed like a, well, he was kind of a nervous person, but you wouldn’t have thought that he would murder anyone. He just walked around, you know, but I am a nervous person myself.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was he able to keep the conversation going in the same general direction? Was he flighty?

Mrs. CHEEK. Kind of flighty; yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How did he act?

Mrs. CHEEK. Well, he didn’t know his location. And I told him it seemed to me that it was funny why he would try to get $6,000 out of me, not knowing, I wouldn’t know the location, I wouldn’t know anything about the business or anything.

He couldn’t tell me anything about that, and I didn’t understand why he would call me down and try to convince me he was a good man and talking for this Frank, too, and not having the location, couldn’t show me what I was buying. And I told him I usually see the things that I buy or know something about it. I don’t buy anything unless I can see it and look at it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you get the idea that this Frank was----

Mrs. CHEEK. He is an older fellow.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How old a man did he appear to be?

Mrs. CHEEK. I would say he was up around 66 years old. He was gray-headed.

Mr. GRIFFIN. About how tall was he?

Mrs. CHEEK. He was a little taller than I was. About five seven, I guess.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But not a tall man?

Mrs. CHEEK. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about his weight? Appear to be heavy?

Mrs. CHEEK. I don’t remember how much the man weighed, about 165 or 160, maybe not that much.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he appear to be a fat man?

Mrs. CHEEK. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Medium-built, would you say, or skinny?

Mrs. CHEEK. He wasn’t skinny, I don’t think. I didn’t look at the man really that much.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall if he wore glasses?

Mrs. CHEEK. I don’t know whether he did or not. I don’t think he did.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you learn anything about where he lived?

Mrs. CHEEK. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack Ruby indicate that somebody else besides Fisher and he were interested in this new nightclub?

Mrs. CHEEK. Who?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Or Frank, whatever his name is?

Mrs. CHEEK. I didn’t understand that Frank was going in on it. He was going to decorate it for Jack Ruby.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack indicate there was somebody else interested besides him?

Mrs. CHEEK. Just himself.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You must have been quite annoyed with him when he wouldn’t tell you where it would be and wouldn’t give you the details?

Mrs. CHEEK. Well, I just told him I couldn’t make an investment that I didn’t know about.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he describe how big it was going to be? How many seats?

Mrs. CHEEK. No, he didn’t. He might have, but I don’t remember the exact seating.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Then you can’t tell us anything that you recall about that conversation other than what you have told us so far?

Mrs. CHEEK. That is all I remember.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Okay. Now, have you read through this interview report?

Mrs. CHEEK. I don’t have glasses, and I can’t see too well today. I don’t have my glasses with me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, would you like me to read it out?

Mrs. CHEEK. You can read it to me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you read the first paragraph?

Mrs. CHEEK. I think I read pretty well through everything, because I can hold it off and read it pretty good. I was holding it. I can see if I hold it far away. If you want, you can read it to me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Why don’t I start to read at the last paragraph on page 132 of Commission Document 86. It reads: “At Ruby’s invitation, Mrs. Cheek said she did discuss such investment with Ruby at the Carousel. Ruby proposed her investment of $6,000 in a club, the identity or location of which he would not disclose, apparently Mrs. Cheek said to preclude her going around him on the deal.”

“Mrs. Cheek said she would not consider the investment of $6,000 without full disclosure and had suggested to Ruby that he get an option on the business so that he might discuss the proposal openly. This concluded the discussion of such investment by Mrs. Cheek with Jack Ruby.”

Let me ask you at this point, was your understanding that this was a going business that he was going to buy?

Mrs. CHEEK. No, it was the location that he was going to buy and then put the club in.

Mr. GRIFFIN. So it really means that he should get an option on the real estate?

Mrs. CHEEK. Yes. That is what I told him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. “Throughout these discussions at the Carousel, Mrs. Cheek stated that Ruby was assisted by one Frank, whose last name Mrs. Cheek did not recall.

“She described Frank as a man of Jewish extraction about 60 years of age with gray hair. Frank was present, she said, apparently to provide Ruby with a good recommendation as a nightclub operator as this was the extent of his participation in the discussion.”

You would amplify that to say that Frank also talked about how Frank was going to decorate the place?

Mrs. CHEEK. He didn’t tell that he was going to decorate this place. He talked about how he decorated the other place and how nice a job he did. And he spoke of how, what a good operator Ruby was in the nightclub business and how he could make money.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Then the last sentence is:

“Mrs. Cheek was unable to provide any additional information of pertinence concerning Jack Ruby.”

Well, I take it that you have no additions or corrections to make to what I have just read you?

Mrs. CHEEK. That’s correct.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. I want to thank you for spending all this time, and I realize that this has been a sacrifice for you to come down here, and we will try to make arrangements to make photo copies of a few of the records that you have.

Mrs. CHEEK. You are welcome to them.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Again I say you are very kind to give us your time, and I would ask you a couple of questions in conclusion.

One, have you been interviewed by any member of the Commission Staff prior to appearing here today?

Mrs. CHEEK. Those FBI men.

Mr. GRIFFIN. By other than that?

Mrs. CHEEK. Barry and Mr. Kelley.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But nobody that identified himself as a member of the Commission’s staff, as opposed to an FBI agent or Secret Service agent? You haven’t been other than these two interview reports that I have showed you? Have you been interviewed by anybody on any occasion?

Mrs. CHEEK. I don’t think so, unless when the police and the FBI or anyone comes to my house about any of the rents or anyone, I always talk to them, and now I don’t know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right, before I----

Mrs. CHEEK. I give them all the information I can give them.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Before I sat down here with you in the room this afternoon, did I interview you at all?

Mrs. CHEEK. I don’t think so.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I did meet you out in the hallway?

Mrs. CHEEK. Yes, sir; I met you.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But I didn’t ask you any questions?

Mrs. CHEEK. No; you didn’t.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now I will ask you this, too. Do you have any information that you consider to be of any importance in connection with what this Commission is doing, that you haven’t provided us so far?

Mrs. CHEEK. I don’t think I have any information at all that I could give you. If I had, I had already called someone and told you about it. If I had ever talked to anyone or anyone mentioned anything about this, I just, like my sister, if she got a letter through the mail, I said, “You call the FBI immediately and turn it in.” “Turn everything in.”

She would get letters through the mail from different people and the people would be coming out interviewing, and I said, “Call immediately and tell them.”

Mr. GRIFFIN. If anything comes to your attention

Mrs. CHEEK. I will call you and tell you, surely. I will try to be as helpful as I can be, because I don’t understand it, like everyone else.

Mr. GRIFFIN. We certainly appreciate that, and we are trying to get as much as we can.

Mrs. CHEEK. I can’t feature Ruby killing Oswald, and I can’t feature the President being killed.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, you are not the only one.

Mrs. CHEEK. It shocked me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Again, I want to thank you for coming down here. It has been a pleasure to meet you.

Mrs. CHEEK. It is a pleasure meeting you.

TESTIMONY OF CURTIS LaVERNE CRAFARD

The testimony of Curtis LaVerne Crafard was taken at 9:05 a.m., on April 8, 1964, at 200 Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C., by Messrs. Burt W. Griffin and Leon D. Hubert, Jr., assistant counsel of the President’s Commission.

Mr. HUBERT. This is the deposition of Curtis LaVerne Crafard.

Mr. Crafard, my name is Leon Hubert. I am a member of the advisory staff of the President’s Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy, and I have been authorized by the Commission in accordance with law and regulations to take a sworn deposition from you.

The general nature of the Commission’s inquiry is to ascertain the facts relating to the assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of Lee Harvey Oswald.

In particular as to you, Mr. Crafard, the nature of the inquiry is to determine what facts you know about the general inquiry, the death of Oswald and what you know about Jack Ruby.

Now, you have appeared here today by virtue of a subpena dated April 3, 1964, and issued by the Commission to you to appear here in this building, room 400, Veterans of Foreign Wars Building, 200 Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, to be deposed.

When was this subpena served upon you?

Mr. CRAFARD. Last Saturday.

Mr. HUBERT. I think that would have been the 4th.

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. The 4th of April.

Would you rise and be sworn, please?

Raise your right hand. Do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. CRAFARD. I do.

Mr. HUBERT. Will you state your full name for the record, please?

Mr. CRAFARD. Curtis LaVerne Crafard.

Mr. HUBERT. Where do you live, Mr. Crafard?

Mr. CRAFARD. 1219 Birch Street, Dallas, Oreg.

Mr. HUBERT. How old are you?

Mr. CRAFARD. 23.

Mr. HUBERT. When precisely were you born?

Mr. CRAFARD. March 10, 1941.

Mr. HUBERT. What is your present occupation?

Mr. CRAFARD. At the present time I am unemployed.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, the subpena that you were served with calls for you to bring any documents that you may have concerning the matter under inquiry, and I would like you now to make a return, as it is called, as to the documents you do have so suppose you present those that you brought with you in response to the subpena.

Mr. CRAFARD. All I had was the subpena from the Jack Ruby murder trial. Some news clippings from the Ruby trial, and then more or less a diary I have been keeping for a little while of my own movements.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, Mr. Crafard, concerning the diary about your movements, do you have any objection if we have photostatic copies made of the pages on which you have made entries?

Mr. CRAFARD. No objection whatsoever.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you wish to retain the original of this yourself?

Mr. CRAFARD. Unless it is of some use to you.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, it may be, but on the other hand, I don’t want to take it away from you unless you feel that you don’t want to keep it or have no use for it yourself.

Mr. CRAFARD. Well, I would like to have the book because it comes in handy for a lot of things.

Mr. HUBERT. Mr. Crafard, who were your parents?

Mr. CRAFARD. Mr. Hugh Crafard, Mrs. Alice Irene Crafard.

Mr. HUBERT. Are they still living?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Are they living together?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Where do they live?

Mr. CRAFARD. At 1219 Birch Street, Dallas, Oreg.

Mr. HUBERT. Have you any brothers or sisters?

Mr. CRAFARD. I have one brother living. He is in the Army stationed in Los Angeles, Calif.

Mr. HUBERT. What is his name?

Mr. CRAFARD. Edward D. Crafard.

Mr. HUBERT. Is he married?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Does he have children?

Mr. CRAFARD. Two.

Mr. HUBERT. You don’t have any other address for him than that which you have given us?

Mr. CRAFARD. I can’t give you the address. All I know he is stationed there in the Army.

Mr. HUBERT. You don’t know what organization in the Army?

Mr. CRAFARD. The Missile Corps, antiaircraft.

I have three sisters.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, will you state their names, please, and whether they are married?

Mr. CRAFARD. Corabelle Crafard, she is married.

Mr. HUBERT. To whom?

Mr. CRAFARD. [Deleted].

Mr. HUBERT. Where does she live?

Mr. CRAFARD. She is residing in Clare, Mich.

Mr. HUBERT. Are they living together?

Mr. CRAFARD. He is in the “pen” right now.

Mr. HUBERT. Penitentiary?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Which one?

Mr. CRAFARD. New Ionia State Penitentiary.

Mr. HUBERT. What State is that in?

Mr. CRAFARD. Michigan.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know what offense he has been convicted of?

Mr. CRAFARD. As far as I know, B and E, breaking and entering at night.

Mr. HUBERT. How long has he been in the penitentiary?

Mr. CRAFARD. About 7 months, I believe, now.

Mr. HUBERT. What term is he serving?

Mr. CRAFARD. Two-and-a-half to fifteen.

Mr. HUBERT. All right. Go on to the next sister.

Mr. CRAFARD. Norma Lee Crafard.

Mr. HUBERT. Who is she married to?

Mr. CRAFARD. Owen Neal.

Mr. HUBERT. N-e-a-l?

Mr. CRAFARD. N-e-a-l.

Mr. HUBERT. Where do they live?

Mr. CRAFARD. Dallas, Oreg.

Mr. HUBERT. Do they live together?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Do they have children?

Mr. CRAFARD. They have two children.

Mr. HUBERT. All right. What is----

Mr. CRAFARD. Alice LaLaine Crafard.

Mr. HUBERT. What is her husband’s name?

Mr. CRAFARD. She is not married. She lives with my parents.

Mr. HUBERT. How old is she?

Mr. CRAFARD. She is 17.

Mr. HUBERT. Have you had any brothers or sisters who have died?

Mr. CRAFARD. I have one brother that died.

Mr. HUBERT. What was his name?

Mr. CRAFARD. Gary Harold Crafard.

Mr. HUBERT. How old was he when he died?

Mr. CRAFARD. Nine years old.

Mr. HUBERT. When did he die?

Mr. CRAFARD. 1954, I believe it was.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, you have told us where and when you were born. Now, I ask you where you were born?

Mr. CRAFARD. Farwell, Mich.

Mr. HUBERT. How long did you live there after your birth?

Mr. CRAFARD. I am not sure of the length of time we lived right there. We lived around Farwell for 4 years, right around there.

Mr. HUBERT. After those 4 years where did you go?

Mr. CRAFARD. Went to California.

Mr. HUBERT. What part?

Mr. CRAFARD. San Joaquin Valley.

Mr. HUBERT. How long did you stay there?

Mr. CRAFARD. Approximately 6 years.

Mr. HUBERT. That is until you were about 10 years old?

Mr. CRAFARD. Ten years old.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you go to school there?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. How much schooling did you finish there?

Mr. CRAFARD. First four grades.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember the particular place in San Joaquin Valley that you lived?

Mr. CRAFARD. Well, I went to school at Woody, Calif., and Fairfax, Calif.

Mr. HUBERT. All right. After leaving those places, and particularly the San Joaquin Valley, where did you and your parents move to?

Mr. CRAFARD. We moved back to Michigan.

Mr. HUBERT. What place, in Michigan?

Mr. CRAFARD. Clare.

Mr. HUBERT. C-l-a-i-r-e?

Mr. CRAFARD. C-l-a-r-e.

Mr. HUBERT. That is when you were 10 years old?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember it?

Mr. CRAFARD. I can remember going back; yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. How long did you live there?

Mr. CRAFARD. We lived in the vicinity of Clare then for about 4 years.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you go to school there?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; until I graduated from eighth grade.

Mr. HUBERT. Then what happened?

Mr. CRAFARD. We moved to Port Huron, Mich.

Mr. HUBERT. H-u-r-o-n, Mich.?

Mr. CRAFARD. I attended school at Yale, Mich., Yale High School for 2 years, and then we moved back to California to the San Joaquin Valley again.

Mr. HUBERT. Same place as before?