Chapter XI: Part 11

Mr. TURNER. He--We went to the cafe down the block to grab a bite to eat at this time, waiting on the truck, and the truck arrived while we were eating, and when we got back there he was still standing there talking, and a Mexican gentleman had come out, had been drinking too heavy, and made some comment about that, just a general line of talk.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he ever mention his name?

Mr. TURNER. He never mentioned his name.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you hear anyone else talk to him?

Mr. TURNER. As long as I was over there the only ones I saw talk to him was the man, Dave Timmons, with our crew, which was up there at the time, and Richard Bice, he was there, which was with the crew, and that is the only ones I ever saw him talk to.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever see him talk to any policemen?

Mr. TURNER. Never did, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. All right.

Mr. TURNER. He continually, after they got set up, he kept coming up in the hallway.

Mr. HUBERT. That is on the third floor?

Mr. TURNER. On the third floor, sir. This is while we were still up on the third floor, and waiting to get shots of Oswald being transferred from the elevator door to the questioning room, and he would continually come up and give--say, “They are going to bring him down in about 5 minutes.” And he usually was right, on each one of the tips he gave us. He mingled around in the press room up on the third floor a lot. He--I told Tom Pettit, which was the announcer up on the floor, that Oswald was coming down, and he said, “Where are you learning the information?”

Mr. HUBERT. You asked this of this man?

Mr. TURNER. Well, no; I didn’t ever ask him where he was learning his information, but I told--Tom Pettit asked me where I was getting this information, and I said, “Well, that man back over there,” and I pointed him out and he said, “Who is he?” And I said, “I don’t know who he is, but he is giving us some pretty good tips.” And he said, “Okay, keep using him, then.” From that point on, we saw him various times the whole, completely on the third.

Mr. HUBERT. How many times do you think you saw him?

Mr. TURNER. Oh, any number of times, 15 or 20. Just pass him in the hall.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he seem to have free movement?

Mr. TURNER. That’s right. He had free movement on that floor. He had free movement in the basement. That was the only two floors we actually ever did see him, but he was on those floors, back to the press room, talking to the other reporters.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, go ahead.

Mr. TURNER. And, he--and then Sunday morning we came over. I ran into him in the restroom, and he seemed to just live there in the jail.

Mr. HUBERT. Still had that trenchcoat?

Mr. TURNER. And still carrying the little bag, same little bag.

Mr. HUBERT. Did it seem to be a camera bag?

Mr. TURNER. No; they were not camera bags. One little, thin portfolio, and I took the assumption he was selling insurance, from just looking at the little--something like an insuranceman might show to a customer, but that could be entirely wrong.

Mr. HUBERT. And then he had another bag besides that?

Mr. TURNER. That’s right. Something like a traveling kit. Somewhere about 2 inches deep. And we came again Sunday morning, and then we went through the shooting of Oswald, he wasn’t in the basement, to my knowledge at this point.

Mr. HUBERT. When did you see him next?

Mr. TURNER. The next time I saw him was approximately 15 minutes after the shooting when I started to our remote truck to pick up a mike line and a camera cable. The doors was being guarded by policemen, who stopped me, and I told them my business; why I wanted to leave the jail, and give them my name and he let me leave.

Mr. HUBERT. That was at the Commerce Street entrance?

Mr. TURNER. Commerce Street entrance. All right, and when I came back in, which was approximately 3 or 4 minutes after, after we got the stuff ready to bring the camera in to take the lineup room, which is in the basement of the jail, well, this officer had him at the door, and he was trying to show him identification from his billfold.

Mr. HUBERT. You don’t know who that officer was?

Mr. TURNER. No, sir; I don’t. And this man turned to me and said, “That man there can identify me,” and I said, “Like hell I can. I don’t know who you are or what you are.” Or similar to this effect, that I had seen the man, but I didn’t know who he was, so, I kept on about my business, because we were pretty rushed at that time, and approximately 15 minutes later I ran onto him in the hallway coming back out the same door, and he said, “Thanks a million,” and I said, “Well, I don’t know you from anyone.” I said, “That’s why I didn’t identify you.” Or something to that effect and from that point on, I have never seen the gentleman again.

Mr. HUBERT. Have you made any effort to ascertain who he was?

Mr. TURNER. I have reported this to the Secret Service, Mr. Carter with the Secret Service, and I figured it wasn’t any of my business, from that point on.

Mr. HUBERT. You have never seen him since?

Mr. TURNER. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. You were at the Ruby trial?

Mr. TURNER. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. You never saw that man there?

Mr. TURNER. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know most of the officers of the--top officers, at least--of the Dallas Police Department?

Mr. TURNER. I know several. The chief and several of them, by face. I do not know them personally.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, in any case, as far as you know, this man that you have described looks like John Carradine, with the other aspects of the description you have given, wasn’t a police officer that you knew to be a police officer?

Mr. TURNER. That’s right, sir--as far as I know. I never saw him talking to a police officer or any of them except the one.

Mr. HUBERT. He wasn’t at the Ruby trial?

Mr. TURNER. He was never at the Ruby trial. The one officer at the door was the only contact I ever saw him with a police officer, and that was when he was, to my knowledge, trying to----

Mr. HUBERT. You remember any other facial characteristics about him, for instance, the color of his hair, or the way he wore his hair, or did he need a haircut, or was he----

Mr. TURNER. He was a typical man. I didn’t pay much attention to the haircut, but I’m pretty sure it was dark hair, black hair.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he have any scars, or identifiable marks?

Mr. TURNER. He did not have scars, but just wrinkles of age, like Carradine does.

Mr. HUBERT. How old a man would he have been, do you think?

Mr. TURNER. Between 40 and 50, is my guess, but he had some wrinkles on his face. He was thin-jawed like.

Mr. HUBERT. What color eyes?

Mr. TURNER. I don’t know. I didn’t get that far.

Mr. HUBERT. And he wore this trenchcoat all the time?

Mr. TURNER. That’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. And carried the two bags?

Mr. TURNER. That’s right, and he was walking around.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he have any sort of accent in his speech?

Mr. TURNER. No; he had a typical Texan speech. I mean like myself, I have one, and he talked like a Texan. He didn’t have----

Mr. HUBERT. Didn’t have any foreign accent?

Mr. TURNER. And, he did mention he had been a schoolteacher.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, I want to go back for a minute to this matter of the position of Ruby of which you have marked on Exhibit 5080, at position “10.”

Mr. TURNER. Correct, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. On the line, “A,” “B,” now, which shows him at position “10,” he was moving, is that correct?

Mr. TURNER. That’s right, he was slowly moving.

Mr. HUBERT. And his movement was from what direction?

Mr. TURNER. He was going forward.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, he was coming from what?

Mr. TURNER. From down the ramp.

Mr. HUBERT. Is there any possibility that his movement could have been through the rail at this point that I am marking?

Mr. TURNER. That’s right, because it is--here is my opinion----

Mr. HUBERT. At a point----

Mr. TURNER. Let’s see. “11,” “12,” “14,” “15.”

Mr. HUBERT. Let’s say approximately “15,” by the rail?

Mr. TURNER. He could have come over the rail, because I didn’t see him prior to that point.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, his movements were such that you couldn’t say whether he came down the ramp, or came through the rail?

Mr. TURNER. That’s right, sir, because I didn’t see him far enough up the ramp to where it was enclosed.

Mr. HUBERT. And when you did see him it was beyond the point where the rail begins?

Mr. TURNER. I think I am too far back according to this. He would have--let’s move “A,” “B,”----

Mr. HUBERT. Well, let’s put the second position that you have mentioned as “C,” “D.”

Mr. TURNER. According to your mockup, it is half way, approximately.

Mr. HUBERT. Just about.

Mr. TURNER. All right, I am a little----

Mr. HUBERT. Let’s mark that “C,” “D,” so that now on second thought about it and looking at the mockup again, you want to have your previous testimony adjusted so that where you referred to Ruby at position “10,” on line “A,” “B,” previously, you now think it was that he was on position “10,” at line “C,” “D”?

Mr. TURNER. Correct, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. And you do that because you place him at the point where the ramp begins to go up?

Mr. TURNER. That’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, using this scale, which appears on the mockup, I would ask you to verify this with me.

Mr. TURNER. All right.

Mr. HUBERT. That the incline begins almost exactly 13 feet----

Mr. TURNER. Beyond the rail, I mean where the start of the rail is.

Mr. HUBERT. Thirteen feet from the start of the rail on the Main Street ramp?

Mr. TURNER. That’s right, sir, this would be our location here where he eventually----

Mr. HUBERT. Therefore, am I correct in saying there was approximately 13 feet of rail through which Ruby could have come prior to the time you saw him at position number “10”?

Mr. TURNER. You are correct.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, going back to that position number “10” on the line, “C,” “D”. You have placed position number “10” almost in the middle of the ramp. Was he closer to one side or to the other?

Mr. TURNER. He seemed to be closer and--this is hard to say, because it was almost a casual glance, that he was closer to the rail side than he was to the other side.

Mr. HUBERT. You did not see him come over the rail?

Mr. TURNER. No, sir; I did not. I did not come in contact with the man until he was in the position--he was nearly in the center of it when I came in contact, and the man--the hat was the most obvious facial--I mean just glancing at a man you take something that you can pick a man out by and remember his name by it. That is the way I remember people is something they ordinarily wear, and he had the hat on, but I thought he was a--much larger than--by just glancing at him.

Mr. HUBERT. We’ll come back to the other point. Is there any doubt in your mind that the man that you saw, however you would identify him at point number “10,” was the man that you later saw step forward and shoot Oswald?

Mr. TURNER. No, sir; and without a doubt in my mind, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Off the record.

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. HUBERT. Have you anything else you would like to say?

Mr. TURNER. No, I want to say that I hope I have been some help to you.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, let me ask you this: Other than myself, have you been interviewed by any other member of the Commission staff?

Mr. TURNER. Not on the Commission staff, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, there was a little preliminary interview between you and me this morning before your deposition went onto the record.

Mr. TURNER. That’s right, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Can you perceive any inconsistencies between our colloquy in the interview prior to the beginning of the actual taking of this deposition and the matters covered in the deposition?

Mr. TURNER. No, sir; none at all.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, did you tell me anything during the interview which we have not covered in the deposition?

Mr. TURNER. You mean before?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Mr. TURNER. No, we discussed everything.

Mr. HUBERT. We got it all in the deposition?

Mr. TURNER. That’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. I certainly thank you very much, sir.

TESTIMONY OF HAROLD R. FUQUA

The testimony of Harold R. Fuqua was taken at 3:55 p.m., on April 1, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr., assistant counsel of the President’s Commission.

Mr. HUBERT. This is a deposition of Harold Fuqua [spelling] F-u-q-u-a. Mr. Fuqua, my name is Leon Hubert. I am a member of the advisory staff of the General Counsel of the President’s Commission. Under the provisions of the Executive Order 11130, dated November 29, 1963, Joint Resolution of Congress No. 137, and the rules of procedure adopted by the Commission in conformance with that Executive order and joint resolution, I have been authorized to take a sworn deposition from you. I state to you now that the general nature of the Commission’s inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate, and report upon the facts relating to the assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of Lee Harvey Oswald. In particular, as to you, Mr. Fuqua, the nature of the inquiry today is to determine what facts you know about the death of Oswald and any other pertinent facts you may know about the general inquiry.

Now, I think, Mr. Fuqua, that you have appeared here today by--as a result of an informal request made to the Dallas Public Works Department for whom you work, and I wish to advise you that under the rules of the Commission you would normally be entitled to a 3-day written notice before the taking of this deposition, but the rules of the Commission also provide that a witness may waive that 3-day notice if he wishes to do so, and I ask you now if you are willing to have your deposition taken now and therefore willing to waive the 3-day written notice?

Mr. FUQUA. I’m ready now, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. All right. Will you stand and raise your right hand. Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. FUQUA. I do.

Mr. HUBERT. Will you state your full name?

Mr. FUQUA. Harold Rogers Fuqua.

Mr. HUBERT. And your age?

Mr. FUQUA. Thirty.

Mr. HUBERT. And where do you live, sir?

Mr. FUQUA. 4338 Penelope, Dallas.

Mr. HUBERT. What is your occupation?

Mr. FUQUA. Parking attendant, basement of city hall.

Mr. HUBERT. What?

Mr. FUQUA. Parking attendant in the basement of the city hall.

Mr. HUBERT. How long have you been so employed?

Mr. FUQUA. By the city of Dallas?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Mr. FUQUA. About 6 years.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, were you on duty on the morning of November 24, 1963?

Mr. FUQUA. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. When you say you were on duty, that means you were on duty in the parking area of the basement?

Mr. FUQUA. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. That basement is partially under the city hall, and partially under the police building, is that correct?

Mr. FUQUA. No, sir; it is under the municipal part of it. The parking basement, because it is right beside the jail part.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, the parking area in the basement is really under the municipal building?

Mr. FUQUA. That is the way I would think of it.

Mr. HUBERT. And, what--it is all connected up by the two ramps?

Mr. FUQUA. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. That go up to Main Street and Commerce Street?

Mr. FUQUA. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. Also a sort of a corridor that goes into the jail office, isn’t that correct?

Mr. FUQUA. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Your duties, normally, are just to assist in parking of cars down there?

Mr. FUQUA. Right, and make sure that the right people--in other words, we have people that come down each day to maybe want to park and go get a prisoner out of jail or pay their water bill. We don’t permit that.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, that parking area is used for employees of the city and the municipal building, as well as for police automobiles?

Mr. FUQUA. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. Just not a public parking lot?

Mr. FUQUA. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. And that is your job, to keep them from parking down there?

Mr. FUQUA. Yes; and to assist, too.

Mr. HUBERT. And to assist getting cars out when people come for them?

Mr. FUQUA. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, on the morning of November 24, do you recall being put out of the basement area, I guess you might call it, along with Alfreadia Riggs and others?

Mr. FUQUA. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Tell us what happened.

Mr. FUQUA. You said tell you what happened?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes; tell us what happened.

Mr. FUQUA. All right, we were standing along and watching on, and then we went back and sit down over there, you know, at the telephone down where the elevator goes up into the municipal building.

Mr. HUBERT. That is the service elevator?

Mr. FUQUA. Right, and captain and sergeant came over and said--well, said, “I hate to run you off your job”--said, “--but we’d rather for nobody but news reporters and police officers be down here.” At that time they were making a search through the basement there.

Mr. HUBERT. What time was that about?

Mr. FUQUA. About 9:30, somewhere about like that.

Mr. HUBERT. Then what happened next?

Mr. FUQUA. We all loaded on the elevator and went up to the first floor.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you go up with Mr. Pierce or did you come up a little later?

Mr. FUQUA. Seemed to me that we all went up together, or maybe I went up--I don’t know. I know that he made a trip down back. It might have been that I didn’t go up with Mr. Pierce. I don’t----

Mr. HUBERT. And came up a little later?

Mr. FUQUA. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. Was it much later?

Mr. FUQUA. Not too much later, because the time the captain told me he had rather for us to go.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, you went up to the first floor of the municipal building then?

Mr. FUQUA. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And that would have been about 9:30, or a quarter of 10:00?

Mr. FUQUA. About 9:30, something like that.

Mr. HUBERT. What happened after that?

Mr. FUQUA. We all were watching the action that was going on out on Commerce Street side and there was a lot of people standing out on the sidewalk with a--those officers were trying to keep them on the far side of the street, on the south side of the street rather than the north side, and when anybody would pass along there to try to maybe enter the building, they would ask them for some type--would appear to me that they would ask--were asking for some type of credentials or something.

Mr. HUBERT. How long did you stay there watching them?

Mr. FUQUA. I guess must have been stayed there--seemed like to me 30 minutes or more stayed there watching them.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you leave?

Mr. FUQUA. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Where did you go?

Mr. FUQUA. Riggs and I left together and said, “Let’s see if we can’t go down and watch it on television,” see, so, we went out to the alleyway onto Main Street and walked back, came up the street and went around there by the ramp there, and came on around and came in from the Harwood side, and went down through the basement to the locker room to watch it on television. There was one fellow down there, he said that he didn’t think it would be on television, probably reruns would be on television, so, we came back up, and just about the time we came back up into the basement, that is--I guess that is when we heard the shot and the scrambling. We went on, and we went into the records building, which is right down from the jail office there.

Mr. HUBERT. When you came down in the basement, you don’t mean you came into the ramps, or the parking area?

Mr. FUQUA. No.

Mr. HUBERT. You were there by the records room then?

Mr. FUQUA. Yes; on around right from the Harwood side.

Mr. HUBERT. How did you get out of the municipal building, sir?

Mr. FUQUA. You mean after the----

Mr. HUBERT. No; when you and Riggs left. First of all, what time was it, about, when you left the municipal building to go out and around----

Mr. FUQUA. Seemed to me that it must have been 10 or after.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you think it was as late as 11?

Mr. FUQUA. No; I don’t think it was that late.

Mr. HUBERT. Let me put it another way. When you left Servance and Pierce and the others, at the Commerce Street entrance and you and Riggs decided to go and watch on television and you left for the municipal building, how long was it before the shooting.

Mr. FUQUA. Oh, it wasn’t over 10 or 15 minutes at the most. I doubt if it was that long, because we walked slowly along the street there and where these two officers were on the Main Street side, and just walked on around slowly, around the Harwood side, and looked down the ramp, and by the time we found out it wasn’t--that it wasn’t going to be on television and came back----

Mr. HUBERT. And that is about the time the shot was fired?

Mr. FUQUA. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. How long were you in the locker room?

Mr. FUQUA. I think, sir, we were long enough--I think Riggs bought a can of chili and beans or something he bought.

Mr. HUBERT. And he had a chance to eat it?

Mr. FUQUA. He just walked on back up the stairs. We was laughing, we got to wondering what he did with the can when he got back up, because I guess just before he finished it, well, that is what happened.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know a man by the name of Jack Ruby?

Mr. FUQUA. No.

Mr. HUBERT. You have seen pictures of him in the papers, of course?

Mr. FUQUA. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. When you were walking along Main Street there and past the Main Street ramp, did you see him along Main Street or anywhere in the crowd?

Mr. FUQUA. No, sir. I don’t remember him.

Mr. HUBERT. You would have passed there, you think, about 10 minutes before the shooting?

Mr. FUQUA. Something about like that, about 10 minutes before the shooting.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, what door did you use to get out of the municipal building?

Mr. FUQUA. Well, see, the elevator coming--you know, the service elevator, it has got a front and rear door, and we punched it and went through the elevator.

Mr. HUBERT. When you punched it it opened the rear door?

Mr. FUQUA. That’s what happened, right.

Mr. HUBERT. So, it made like a little hallway with the elevator being the hall, that is with the two doors of the elevator opened?

Mr. FUQUA. Right. You go straight through, because whenever the elevator is on the first floor lots of people want to use the elevator, they say, “Let me go through the back door.”

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, you got into the elevator door and the municipal building side of the elevator was open?

Mr. FUQUA. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And you punched the door on the other side of the elevator which opened that door so that you could get to the corridor leading to the alleyway?

Mr. FUQUA. All the controls are on one side.

Mr. HUBERT. But, in any case, you remember that the back door to the elevator, that is, to say, the elevator door on the alleyway side was closed, and you had to punch a button to open it up?

Mr. FUQUA. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. And then how did you get out of the back door that leads to the alleyway?

Mr. FUQUA. Riggs opened up that door.

Mr. HUBERT. Where did he get a key from? Do you remember?

Mr. FUQUA. Key--see, the key usually hangs up in the elevator there. It is a string of keys on a stick.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he take them with him--put it this way; did he have to use the key to open that door?

Mr. FUQUA. Yes; he would have to use a key.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he lock it back up again?

Mr. FUQUA. Yes; he locked it.

Mr. HUBERT. How do you know?

Mr. FUQUA. You see, lots of times I do work, and I believe I remember him shaking it, you know, shake it to see if it is locked, because it is strict to keep it closed on weekends.

Mr. HUBERT. What did you have to do to close it after you had gone through the door and were standing in the alleyway area? How do you lock it then?

Mr. FUQUA. I don’t know whether you exactly--whether you can fix it so it will lock when you pull it.

Mr. HUBERT. Or do you have to turn the key?

Mr. FUQUA. Right. I don’t know.

Mr. HUBERT. But, you say you do remember him shaking the door?

Mr. FUQUA. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. After you all had passed through the door?

Mr. FUQUA. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. You didn’t try the door yourself?

Mr. FUQUA. No.

Mr. HUBERT. But, from what you were able to see, he was shaking it as a person would do just testing to see if a door is closed?

Mr. FUQUA. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And it seemed now to be closed?

Mr. FUQUA. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, I am showing you a document which purports to be a report of an interview with you by FBI Agent Jack Peden, and I’m marking it for identification as follows: “Dallas, Tex., April 1, 1964, Exhibit 5134, Deposition of Harold Fuqua,” and signing my name to it. The document consists of two pages, and I’m putting my initials on the lower right-hand corner of the second page. Now, in order that the record may show that we are both speaking of the same document when you testify in a moment about this document, I would like you to place your signature near mine on the first page, and your initials near mine on the second page, please.

Mr. FUQUA. Now, say this again, now.

Mr. HUBERT. On that first page----

Mr. FUQUA. Just put my first--my signature here?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes; just your signature. I note that you are putting your signature above and to the right of the inscription I have put on there, that is all right. Would you put your initials on the second page, please.

Now have you read that document consisting of two pages and identified as 5134?

Mr. FUQUA. I have read it outside.

Mr. HUBERT. Is that correct?

Mr. FUQUA. Yes, sir; everything that I know that is on here is correct.

Mr. HUBERT. Are you willing to state to us now that between the statement and your deposition which you have just given that you have said all that you know about this matter altogether?

Mr. FUQUA. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. And that if the Commission takes that statement, Exhibit 5134, and your deposition that they will have everything you know about this whole matter?

Mr. FUQUA. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, sir. Have you been interviewed by any member of the Commission, to your knowledge, prior to this?

Mr. FUQUA. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Was there an interview between you and me prior to this?

Mr. FUQUA. Were you the one that called me on the telephone?

Mr. HUBERT. No, sir. Someone called you on the telephone?

Mr. FUQUA. Yes, sir; I guess. Called me on the telephone and told me when to be down here.

Mr. HUBERT. Yes; but that telephone call, whoever it was with, was solely for the purpose of fixing the time of this appointment.

Mr. FUQUA. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. No discussion of any matters.

Mr. FUQUA. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. And you and I have not discussed the matter before your deposition began?

Mr. FUQUA. No.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, sir, I think that is all then.

I thank you very much.

TESTIMONY OF EDWARD KELLY

The testimony of Edward Kelly was taken at 2:45 p.m., on April 1, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr., assistant counsel of the President’s Commission.

Mr. HUBERT. This is a deposition of Edward Kelly.

Mr. Kelly, my name is Leon Hubert. I am a member of the advisory staff of the general counsel of the President’s Commission. Under the provisions of Executive Order 11130, dated November 29, 1963, a Joint Resolution of Congress No. 137, and rules of procedure adopted by the Commission in conformance with the Executive order and the joint resolution, I have been authorized to take the sworn deposition from you. I state to you now that the general nature of the Commission’s inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate and report upon the facts relating to the assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of Lee Harvey Oswald. In particular as to you, Mr. Kelly, the nature of the inquiry today is to determine what facts you know about the death of Oswald and any other pertinent facts you may know about the general inquiry. Now, Mr. Kelly, you have appeared here today as a result of a request made informally of you to come. I want to advise you that under the rules adopted by the President’s Commission you are entitled, if you wish, to have a 3-day written notice before this deposition can be taken. On the other hand the Commission has also provided that if a witness doesn’t desire to have the 3-day notice and is willing to testify immediately and without having the notice, and is willing to waive that notice that he may do so.

Are you willing to waive the notice and testify now?

Mr. KELLY. About what?

Mr. HUBERT. About the general inquiry and about the document that I have just shown you?

Mr. KELLY. Oh, yes; I’d rather testify now.

Mr. HUBERT. You’d rather testify. Will you stand so that I may give you the oath?

Will you raise your right hand? Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. KELLY. I do.

Mr. HUBERT. Will you please state your name?

Mr. KELLY. Edward Kelly.

Mr. HUBERT. Your age?

Mr. KELLY. Twenty-one.

Mr. HUBERT. Your residence? Where you live?

Mr. KELLY. 1315 Sanger Avenue.

Mr. HUBERT. 1315 what?

Mr. KELLY. Sanger.

Mr. HUBERT. What is your occupation?

Mr. KELLY. Porter at city hall.

Mr. HUBERT. How long have you been occupied like that?

Mr. KELLY. May 2d, I’ll be there 1 year.

Mr. HUBERT. May 2d, of 1964, will be 1 year?

Mr. KELLY. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Were you in the basement of the police department on Sunday, November 24th, before Oswald was shot down there?

Mr. KELLY. Yes; I sure was.

Mr. HUBERT. I think you were in the company with Harold Fuqua and Alfreadia Riggs and that’s all of those?

Mr. KELLY. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. I am showing you a document which purports to be a report of an interview with you by FBI Agent Jack Peden, and I am marking it for identification as follows: “Dallas, Tex., April 1, 1964. Exhibit No. 5133, Deposition of Edward Kelly.”

Signing my name to it. It consists of one page only, and I ask you if you have read that document?

Mr. KELLY. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. In order that the record may show that we are both speaking about the same thing, I wonder if you would place your initials on that document. Now, Mr. Kelly, you have put your initials on this document which I have marked 5133, by putting “EK”, is that correct?

Mr. KELLY. That’s correct.

Mr. HUBERT. Is this document correct, Mr. Kelly?

Mr. KELLY. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. You have had a chance to read it?

Mr. KELLY. Yes; I have had--I have read it twice. There is nothing wrong about it.

Mr. HUBERT. Anything that should be added to it?

Mr. KELLY. As far as I can remember.

Mr. HUBERT. This conveys all that you know about the matter?

Mr. KELLY. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Have you had any interviews with any other members of the President’s Commission?

Mr. KELLY. No, sir; besides--I mean, you know, Mr. Peden.

Mr. HUBERT. No; he is an FBI man.

Mr. KELLY. Well, that is the onliest one.

Mr. HUBERT. Where were you when Oswald was shot?

Mr. KELLY. I was up in the--on the first floor on the Commerce exit side.

Mr. HUBERT. You were along with Mr. Pierce and----

Mr. KELLY. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. And Mr. Servance?

Mr. KELLY. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you see Alfreadia Riggs and Harold Fuqua there that time, too?

Mr. KELLY. At the same time he was shot?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Mr. KELLY. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Had they been there earlier?

Mr. KELLY. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Where did they go, to your knowledge?

Mr. KELLY. I don’t know. Didn’t know they left.

Mr. HUBERT. But, you knew they left, but you don’t know where they went, or how they got there, from your knowledge?

Mr. KELLY. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Thank you very much. I think that is all we need from you.

Mr. KELLY. Okay.

TESTIMONY OF LOUIS McKINZIE

The testimony of Louis McKinzie was taken at 9 a.m., on March 25, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr., assistant counsel of the President’s Commission.

Mr. HUBERT. Mr. McKinzie, my name is Leon Hubert, I am a member of the advisory staff of the general counsel of the President’s Commission on the assassination of President Kennedy. Under the provisions of the President’s Executive Order 11130, dated November 29, 1963, a Joint Resolution of Congress, No. 137, and the rules of procedure adopted by the Commission in conformance with an Executive order in that resolution, I have been authorized to take a sworn deposition of you, Mr. McKinzie. I state to you now that the general nature of the Commission’s inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate, and report upon the facts relating to the assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of Lee Oswald. In particular to you, Mr. McKinzie, the nature of the inquiry today is to determine what facts you know about the death of Oswald and any other pertinent facts you may know about the general inquiry. Now, Mr. McKinzie, you have appeared here today by virtue of the fact that the members of the Secret Service contacted you to locate you and ask you to come, is that correct?

Mr. McKINZIE. That’s correct.

Mr. HUBERT. You have not yet received the letter addressed to you by Mr. J. Lee Rankin, that you would be asked to come here, is that correct?

Mr. McKINZIE. That’s correct.

Mr. HUBERT. I see that the copy of the letter that I have was addressed to 321 Harmon Street, Dallas, Tex. That is not your address. Your address was 3321 Harmon, so, they left out one 3 there. There was also a copy of a letter sent to the Dallas Public Works Department addressed to you that you didn’t receive.

Mr. McKINZIE. I didn’t receive that.

Mr. HUBERT. Let me say that under the rules adopted by the Commission, you are entitled to a 3-day written notice prior to the taking of this deposition. As I told you, we sent out the letter with the hope that it would be received, but apparently you have not received it. The rules, however, provide that any witness may waive the 3-day notice if he wishes to do so. Are you willing to waive the 3-day notice?

Mr. McKINZIE. Probably, I don’t quite understand there what you mean.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, you could, if you want to say now, “I’ll come in when I get the letter.”

Mr. McKINZIE. I see. I see. Well, not necessary.

Mr. HUBERT. If you want to. It is just a waiving of nothing else but the notice.

Mr. McKINZIE. In other words, since I am here, I’d just as soon not do that. I mean, I’d just as soon answer your questions.

Mr. HUBERT. You are waiving nothing else but the notice that the rules of procedure adopted by the Commission say that you are entitled to.

Mr. McKINZIE. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. If you feel that you would just as soon go ahead now and not come back 3 days after you get the letter, then you are willing to waive it, is that correct?

Mr. McKINZIE. That’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. Will you stand, please, and raise your right hand so that you may be sworn? Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. McKINZIE. I do.

Mr. HUBERT. Please state your name for me.

Mr. McKINZIE. Louis McKinzie.

Mr. HUBERT. What is your age?

Mr. McKINZIE. Fifty-four.

Mr. HUBERT. Where is your residence, Mr. McKinzie?

Mr. McKINZIE. 3321 Harmon.

Mr. HUBERT. That is Dallas, Tex.?

Mr. McKINZIE. Dallas, Tex.

Mr. HUBERT. What is your occupation?

Mr. McKINZIE. Porter.

Mr. HUBERT. Where?

Mr. McKINZIE. City hall, public works department.

Mr. HUBERT. You are a city employee?

Mr. McKINZIE. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. How long have you been a city hall employee, sir?

Mr. McKINZIE. Exact--this is March and--Oh, I’d say 6 years and 6 months. That would be just about it, correct.

Mr. HUBERT. What was your occupation before that?

Mr. McKINZIE. Well, I did construction work mostly.

Mr. HUBERT. Carpenter?

Mr. McKINZIE. Carpenter’s helper.

Mr. HUBERT. Carpenter’s helper?

Mr. McKINZIE. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Have you been living in the Dallas area all your life?

Mr. McKINZIE. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Where did you live before coming to Dallas?

Mr. McKINZIE. I was raised at East Texas, Palestine, Anderson County.

Mr. HUBERT. Are you married?

Mr. McKINZIE. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Children?

Mr. McKINZIE. Five.

Mr. HUBERT. All grown.

Mr. McKINZIE. All grown.

Mr. HUBERT. What is your particular job with the Dallas Public Works Department?

Mr. McKINZIE. General porter work. I keep the first floor on the public works department and water department and building permit department and general split shift. I work, oh, every day, part-time.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, when you say general porter in the water works department, that is the first floor of the municipal building?

Mr. McKINZIE. Yes; that’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, I would like you to describe how you can get into the first floor of the municipal building. All possible ways to get in the first floor?

Mr. McKINZIE. Well, you have got--you have got a door on Main Street that you can come in. You have got a door on Commerce Street that you can come in. Also, have a door on the alley coming from the Western Union that you can come in, and if somebody lets you in, well, I mean, you know it is open to the public through the week, but weekends it is not. In other words, none of the doors open to the public on weekends. Just working days only.

Mr. HUBERT. Those doors are locked on weekends, that is, Friday night?

Mr. McKINZIE. That’s right. In other words, after 6:30 in the afternoon all doors are locked and all elevators are canceled but one, which that is what they call the freight elevator. It runs from the basement all the way to the fifth floor, and that is where everybody is supposed to go in and out, through the building at night and on weekends, Saturdays and Sundays and holidays, unless it is maintenance men, they have their own keys.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, is there any passageway between the building known as the jail building, or the police department building and the municipal building?

Mr. McKINZIE. First floor, second floor and third floor.

Mr. HUBERT. And what?

Mr. McKINZIE. In other words, they have gates there that they close after closing time and lock.

Mr. HUBERT. Sort of a gate made of----

Mr. McKINZIE. Metal.

Mr. HUBERT. Metal across metal, sort of like an accordion.

Mr. McKINZIE. That’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. And it locks?

Mr. McKINZIE. They lock that after closing time. Stay locked until 6:30, 7 the next morning.

Mr. HUBERT. And on weekends?

Mr. McKINZIE. No; on weekends it would be locked permanently.

Mr. HUBERT. From 6:30 Friday, in the afternoon until about 7 o’clock Monday morning?

Mr. McKINZIE. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. And that is true of the gates, small gates on the second and third floor, also?

Mr. McKINZIE. First, second and third. That is the only--there is three of them, three floors, first, second and third.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, is it possible to get into the first floor of the municipal building from the basement by using a--the staircase, the fire escape, the fire escape staircase?

Mr. McKINZIE. It is kept locked. They do have a door there.

Mr. HUBERT. There is a double door.

Mr. McKINZIE. No, sir; they have just an ordinary door made like that one there that you go up the stair steps from the basement, but it is locked. It is--well, it is locked at nights, too.

Mr. HUBERT. It is locked. Which side?

Mr. McKINZIE. From the--it would be locked from the outside.

Mr. HUBERT. From the basement side?

Mr. McKINZIE. That’s right. You can come out it. You can come down and come out it, but you can’t go in it from the basement without a key.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, if a person was on the first floor, could he get to the basement by using the fire escape stairs?

Mr. McKINZIE. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, the fire escape staircase doors on the first floor of the municipal building are not locked?

Mr. McKINZIE. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. So, you can get into that fire escape staircase, as it were, and go one flight down and----

Mr. McKINZIE. That’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. And you can open the door down there, that is not locked?

Mr. McKINZIE. It is locked, but you can open it from the inside.

Mr. HUBERT. Okay, open from the staircase side, so, if you got into the staircase, you could get into the basement, is that right?

Mr. McKINZIE. Yes, sir; that’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, on the 24th, which was on a Sunday, the Sunday after President Kennedy was killed, were you on duty that day?

Mr. McKINZIE. Yes, sir; I was.

Mr. HUBERT. What time did you come on duty?

Mr. McKINZIE. 7 o’clock, Sunday morning.

Mr. HUBERT. What time did you leave?

Mr. McKINZIE. 3 in the afternoon.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, what was your particular duty that day?

Mr. McKINZIE. I was running the freight elevator.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you operate the elevator all day?

Mr. McKINZIE. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you leave it at any time?

Mr. McKINZIE. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. When?

Mr. McKINZIE. Around 10 o’clock is when I got orders to carry it to the first floor and cut it off and not bring any passengers down to the basement until I got further permission from the police department, and I was off of it then, I was still on the first floor, I just wasn’t operating it.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you leave the elevator itself?

Mr. McKINZIE. Sir?

Mr. HUBERT. Did you leave the elevator itself and walk some place else?

Mr. McKINZIE. Just down the hallway.

Mr. HUBERT. Were the doors of the elevator open then?

Mr. McKINZIE. It was open, but it was cut off. I had it automatic, and I had it cut off with the key. Couldn’t nobody----

Mr. HUBERT. Now, that really has two doors in it, doesn’t it?

Mr. McKINZIE. Back and front.

Mr. HUBERT. That is the front one, I suppose, you designate as the one that opens up into the municipal building?

Mr. McKINZIE. That’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. And the back one is the one that opens up into a little hallway that leads to an alleyway?

Mr. McKINZIE. Yes, sir; that’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. Does that back door of the elevator also open on other floors?

Mr. McKINZIE. On the second floor of the building.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, when you left the elevator what was the position of both doors?

Mr. McKINZIE. Front was open facing the municipal building. The back was closed.

Mr. HUBERT. It never was open at all?

Mr. McKINZIE. No, sir; never was open.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall whether the back of the elevator was open any time during the morning of November 24th, until the shooting?

Mr. McKINZIE. I am sure that I wouldn’t be making no mistake if I said it was open several times, because we had some porters down there working that brings trash from the jail department, and I always let them out that door, and they go out the back, and that is where they keep all their trash and the garbage and so forth, and I imagine about 8 or 8:30, that they were open, because that is about the time they carries the trash and stuff out.

Mr. HUBERT. So that the back----

Mr. McKINZIE. There would be one porter probably went out maybe one or two trips.

Mr. HUBERT. How would he get out through that back door leading onto the alleyway? Is that an open door?

Mr. McKINZIE. It is locked.

Mr. HUBERT. Who has the key?

Mr. McKINZIE. They gives them a key to go out that door to carry the trash, and they bring the key back and carry them back down to the basement.

Mr. HUBERT. They don’t have a key personally; the key is in the elevator on a ring, is that right?

Mr. McKINZIE. That’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. And they have to get that key from the elevator operator?

Mr. McKINZIE. That’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, did you give the key to anybody that day, do you remember?

Mr. McKINZIE. Well, I’m sure that I give it to--I don’t know which porter was working, just exactly. I think Alfreadia Riggs, or some of them, but I am sure I give them the key to unlock the back door to carry his trash out.

Mr. HUBERT. Does that back door have a latch on it so that you can push it and it will stay open?

Mr. McKINZIE. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. That door requires a key all the time, either way?

Mr. McKINZIE. That’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. When they go out, how do they get back in?

Mr. McKINZIE. They got to leave it open, or either carry the key to come back in.

Mr. HUBERT. How did they leave it open?

Mr. McKINZIE. They just walk out on the little ramp. The garbage cans is sitting right by the building, and they just, oh, about 4 feet from the door is about all, or 5 feet from the door is all they have to walk. They mostly have that trash in a sack, and just throw it in the corner and right back in the building.

Mr. HUBERT. All right; now, after you had been told not to bring the elevator down to the basement any more, did you follow those orders?

Mr. McKINZIE. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. And you never brought the elevator down at all any more?

Mr. McKINZIE. No, sir; not until--well, I know it was 11:30, probably 12 o’clock.

Mr. HUBERT. It was after the shooting?

Mr. McKINZIE. Yes, sir; it was after the shooting.

Mr. HUBERT. And you want to say now that that elevator never came down to the bottom floor all the time?

Mr. McKINZIE. No, sir; it didn’t.

Mr. HUBERT. All right; you also state, so that we can be clear that after you took the elevator to the first floor the doors of the elevator--the front doors of the elevator rather were open, but the back door was not?

Mr. McKINZIE. That back was not.

Mr. HUBERT. And the elevator, any time you left it, was cut off so that it couldn’t be operated?

Mr. McKINZIE. That’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. It had a key, isn’t that correct?

Mr. McKINZIE. That’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. And without turning the elevator on with the key, it couldn’t move?

Mr. McKINZIE. Couldn’t move.

Mr. HUBERT. You had the key in your possession?

Mr. McKINZIE. That’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. So, the elevator didn’t move unless you knew about it?

Mr. McKINZIE. That’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you let any porters out after you had been told not to move the elevator?

Mr. McKINZIE. No, sir; I didn’t.

Mr. HUBERT. Out the back door?

Mr. McKINZIE. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. And the back door, by the way, was closed?

Mr. McKINZIE. That’s right. So, your statement is that from the time you were told not to bring the elevator down any more there was nobody who could have gone out of the door or come into it?

Mr. McKINZIE. That’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. Through the elevator door there or that alley door?

Mr. McKINZIE. That’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. Nobody asked you for the keys to get out?

Mr. McKINZIE. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, do you know--what is his name, Alfreadia Riggs?

Mr. McKINZIE. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know where he lives?

Mr. McKINZIE. No, sir; I really don’t.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you see him that day?

Mr. McKINZIE. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. What was his job?

Mr. McKINZIE. He was a porter.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, do you remember allowing Alfreadia Riggs and Harold Fuqua to go through the back door of the elevator and out of the back door on the alley?

Mr. McKINZIE. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. That did not happen?

Mr. McKINZIE. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. It didn’t happen at any time at all?

Mr. McKINZIE. Well, now, not during the period of the time that I had the elevator cut off.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, did it happen at anytime from the----

Mr. McKINZIE. Well----

Mr. HUBERT. From the time that you were ordered not to bring the elevator down until after the shooting?

Mr. McKINZIE. No, sir; it didn’t happen.

Mr. HUBERT. Nobody passed through that door?

Mr. McKINZIE. One lady probably came from--I went to five and got a telephone operator and brought her down to one. I told her I couldn’t carry her down to the basement, and she walked down the stairway and she couldn’t get the elevator. She walked down, and I carried her back up to one, but outside of that, those two women that I can recall, two women, but I don’t know the name, but a telephone operator that got the elevator, one of them on the first floor, and one walked from the first--fifth floor down to the first floor, the--down the stairway and I carried her back in the elevator.

Mr. HUBERT. Up to the fifth?

Mr. McKINZIE. Up to the fifth floor. Outside of that after I got her it was a telephone man came in just as they left--gave me those orders, but they give me orders to carry him to the fifth floor and bring him right back, and he was the last passenger that I carried all the way from the basement to the fifth floor after I got orders to cut the elevator off, to the fifth floor, he went up there and right back.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you see anybody open up either the Commerce Street entrance or the Main Street entrance and go out?

Mr. McKINZIE. Nobody. I say, the engineerman had a key, and him and a bunch of them stood in the Commerce side at the door.

Mr. HUBERT. He opened the door?