Chapter XXII: Part 22

Mr. DANIELS. Well, detectives come down and picked up the car. Me and this Jackson was there together and he put a ticket on the car so me and him went over to the car and he got a dime to call--to bring the key down there to unlock the car.

Mr. HUBERT. Who did that?

Mr. DANIELS. One of the detectives brought that letter you all sent to me.

Mr. HUBERT. He got a key, you say?

Mr. DANIELS. He called back to the city hall for them to bring Jack Ruby’s key down. They searched the car good. The car was open. He had a dog laying in the car.

Mr. HUBERT. The windows were open?

Mr. DANIELS. One was cracked, and didn’t lock the car. The trunk was locked.

Mr. HUBERT. The trunk was locked but the doors of the car were not locked and there was a little crack in the window for air, I suppose, for the dog?

Mr. DANIELS. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, when the detectives came they could open the car? They didn’t need a key for that, did they?

Mr. DANIELS. No, sir; they didn’t.

Mr. HUBERT. Did they get a key from anybody?

Mr. DANIELS. I don’t know if the key ever come. I think one of them had a key fit it or something.

Mr. HUBERT. Fit what?

Mr. DANIELS. They unlocked the trunk before the man got back with the key or something. I could tell, so they said, “We’ll take the car. Call for the dog wagon to come and get the dog.” Then they decided they’d take the car on down to the pound, the city pound.

Mr. HUBERT. And the dog was taken?

Mr. DANIELS. Take the dog with them.

Mr. HUBERT. They took the dog with them?

Mr. DANIELS. That’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, about how long after you got to work did the detectives come to the car?

Mr. DANIELS. Oh, in maybe an hour.

Mr. HUBERT. An hour?

Mr. DANIELS. Yes, sir; something like that.

Mr. HUBERT. So, you think they got there about 1 o’clock?

Mr. DANIELS. I don’t know. Somewhere--could have been a little later than that when they got there.

Mr. HUBERT. What time was it when they left with the car?

Mr. DANIELS. I don’t know. The boy didn’t punch the ticket out. He just picked it off, because they didn’t pay the ticket out. I don’t know what time, exactly.

Mr. HUBERT. How long were the detectives there from the time they first came until they left?

Mr. DANIELS. They stayed there about 5 or 10 minutes, and then the key, one of them had a key fit it. Must have been his car keys or something, and they left with the car.

Mr. HUBERT. You don’t know where they found that car key that fit the car, do you?

Mr. DANIELS. No; I really don’t know, because I walked back on over there. They raised the trunk up and looked in it.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you look in the trunk?

Mr. DANIELS. When they started looking in the trunk they said, “Well, we’d better take the car on over to the pound.” And searched the car there.

Mr. HUBERT. They did not take anything out of the car at that time?

Mr. DANIELS. Didn’t take anything out of the car.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you know this man named Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mr. DANIELS. No, sir; sure didn’t.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you know whether Mr. Ruby had ever parked his car there before?

Mr. DANIELS. No; I don’t.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you recognize the car?

Mr. DANIELS. No, sir; sure didn’t.

Mr. HUBERT. How long have you been working for the Adolphus Garage?

Mr. DANIELS. Been down there about a month now.

Mr. HUBERT. Mr. Daniels, do you know anything that might throw any light on the general inquiry?

Mr. DANIELS. No, sir; that’s all I know.

Mr. HUBERT. Have you been interviewed by any member of the Commission’s staff before this deposition?

Mr. DANIELS. Yes; one or two fellows, say the FBI, and talked to me.

Mr. HUBERT. They are members of the FBI, but I am talking about persons who identified themselves as members of the staff of the President’s Commission?

Mr. DANIELS. No, sir; I don’t----

Mr. HUBERT. You have not been interviewed, for example, by me before this deposition?

Mr. DANIELS. That’s right, I haven’t.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, sir. Thank you very much. I think that is all.

Mr. DANIELS. Okay.

TESTIMONY OF THEODORE JACKSON

The testimony of Theodore Jackson was taken at 9:30 a.m., on April 1, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr., assistant counsel of the President’s Commission.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, this is the deposition of Theodore Jackson.

Mr. JACKSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Mr. Jackson, my name is Leon Hubert, I am a member of the advisory staff of the General Counsel of the President’s Commission. Under provisions of Executive Order 11130, dated November 29, 1963, a Joint Resolution of Congress No. 137, and the rules of procedure adopted by the Commission in conformance with the Executive order and the joint resolution, I have been authorized to take the sworn deposition from you, Mr. Jackson. I state to you now the general nature of the Commission’s inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate and report upon the facts relating to the assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of Lee Harvey Oswald.

In particular, as to you, Mr. Jackson, the nature of the inquiry today is to determine the facts that you know about the death of Oswald and any other pertinent facts you may know about the general inquiry, in particular about parking of Mr. Jack Ruby’s car in that lot on that Sunday, as it were. Now, I understand that you have not received a letter of request which was sent to you in care of the All State Parking lot, at Main and Expressway. Then under the rules adopted by the Commission every witness has the right to have a 3-day written notice prior to the taking of his deposition, but the rules of the Commission also provide that a witness who has not received that 3-day written notice may waive it if he sees fit to do so. Are you willing to waive it and have your testimony taken without the 3-day----

Mr. JACKSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Will you stand and raise your right hand. Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. JACKSON. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. State your name, please.

Mr. JACKSON. Theodore Jackson.

Mr. HUBERT. And your age?

Mr. JACKSON. Thirty-six.

Mr. HUBERT. Where do you live, Mr. Jackson? Your home?

Mr. JACKSON. 2649 Carpenter Street.

Mr. HUBERT. Carpenter?

Mr. JACKSON. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Dallas?

Mr. JACKSON. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. What is your occupation, Mr. Jackson?

Mr. JACKSON. Parking cars.

Mr. HUBERT. Parking cars?

Mr. JACKSON. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Where do you work?

Mr. JACKSON. 2001 Pacific.

Mr. HUBERT. All State?

Mr. JACKSON. That is All State Parking, uh-huh.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you sometimes work at other branches of All State Parking?

Mr. JACKSON. 2305 Main Street where the car was parked.

Mr. HUBERT. Is that on the corner of Main and Pearl Expressway?

Mr. JACKSON. That is the onliest place I work, where the--Western Union is across the street and the city hall is a block up the street where he shot him.

Mr. HUBERT. It is just about the corner of Main and Pearl Expressway, and you gave the number as 2535?

Mr. JACKSON. 2035.

Mr. HUBERT. Were you on duty working at the All State Parking lot on Main Street on Sunday, November 24, 1963, which was the Sunday after the President got shot?

Mr. JACKSON. Well, I don’t know if it were Sunday. I was on duty when Mr. Ruby shot Oswald. I mean, I was on the lot the Sunday he shot him, but he was already parked there.

Mr. HUBERT. You don’t remember what date it was but you do remember that it was the Sunday that Oswald was shot?

Mr. JACKSON. Uh-huh, his car was parked on my lot.

Mr. HUBERT. Whose car was parked on your lot?

Mr. JACKSON. Mr. Jack Ruby.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you know him before that time?

Mr. JACKSON. No, I didn’t.

Mr. HUBERT. Never seen him before?

Mr. JACKSON. No.

Mr. HUBERT. What time did you get on duty that day?

Mr. JACKSON. Around noon, always come down around noon.

Mr. HUBERT. Is it correct to say then when you came on duty Oswald had already been shot?

Mr. JACKSON. I think he had already been shot, because it was a lot of people around the city hall up there and John L. Daniels--John L. Daniels was already on duty. He was working the Norton block right next to it.

Mr. HUBERT. What?

Mr. JACKSON. Belonged to Ralph Norton, Mr. Ralph Norton.

Mr. HUBERT. How do you spell that name?

Mr. JACKSON. Mr. Ralph Norton.

Mr. HUBERT. Ralph Norton? N-o-r-t-o-n?

Mr. JACKSON. Yes, sir; R-a-l-p-h.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, Daniels worked on the parking lot next to the one you were working on?

Mr. JACKSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. And that parking lot belonged to this Ralph Norton?

Mr. JACKSON. Uh-huh.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, you say Daniels was already on duty when you came on duty?

Mr. JACKSON. Yes, he was there when I got there.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you talk to him?

Mr. JACKSON. No, I didn’t.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, you say Mr. Ruby’s car was already parked on your lot?

Mr. JACKSON. It was parked on my lot.

Mr. HUBERT. How did you know that?

Mr. JACKSON. Well, I didn’t know whose car it was until these two detectives came down and was searching the car.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, will you describe what kind of an automobile it was?

Mr. JACKSON. It was an Oldsmobile, two-door sedan, white.

Mr. HUBERT. Had you ever seen it before?

Mr. JACKSON. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. How can a person park on your lot without there being any attendant there?

Mr. JACKSON. Well, they pull in and leave their car, and take the key and lock it up if you are not there.

Mr. HUBERT. Was there anybody on duty before you got there?

Mr. JACKSON. No, sir; I unlocked the door and opened up.

Mr. HUBERT. Opened up? Well, the parking lot is not a closed parking lot?

Mr. JACKSON. No, sir; it is open 7 days a week.

Mr. HUBERT. It is an open lot so that when you say you unlocked the door, what do you mean?

Mr. JACKSON. The office door.

Mr. HUBERT. Are there any chains or anything to keep a person from driving right on in so that before anyone comes on duty any person can drive in and leave his car?

Mr. JACKSON. Drive in and leave it.

Mr. HUBERT. And if they depart before one of the attendants comes, well, then, they don’t pay anything?

Mr. JACKSON. They pay it when they get back. I put a ticket on the car.

Mr. HUBERT. No, you misunderstood me. If they leave before you get there, then, of course, you----

Mr. JACKSON. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. There would be no payment, but if you find a car there when you get there----

Mr. JACKSON. If it is not monthly.

Mr. HUBERT. Someone that pays by the month and those cars you would recognize, or have some sort of a seal on them to indicate that they pay by the month?

Mr. JACKSON. Yes, I know.

Mr. HUBERT. You know the cars?

Mr. JACKSON. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Mr. Ruby did not park by the month there?

Mr. JACKSON. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. When you came up and saw this car did you put a ticket on it?

Mr. JACKSON. I put a ticket on it.

Mr. HUBERT. Were there any other cars parked in the lot?

Mr. JACKSON. Yes, sir; about, oh, I guess about six--about six more besides his, five or six more, I disremember.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, and you put a ticket on the car, did you notice whether the car was open, or closed?

Mr. JACKSON. No, sir; I didn’t. I just looked at the car and the key was gone. The keys wasn’t in the switch, and I just got a ticket, just stamped the ticket and put it on the windshield.

Mr. HUBERT. Was there a dog in the car?

Mr. JACKSON. Yes, sir; I think so. It was--yes, it was a dog in the car.

Mr. HUBERT. Was there any window open so that the dog could get some air?

Mr. JACKSON. I never looked whether there was or not.

Mr. HUBERT. Did that seem strange to you that there--somebody had a dog in the parked automobile?

Mr. JACKSON. Well, it did, two detectives came down, and they started searching the car, but they were looking for a key.

Mr. HUBERT. Were they able to open the door of the car?

Mr. JACKSON. I don’t think the car was locked up, because they came down, well, they wasn’t--it couldn’t have been locked up, because they were looking for the key to the switch, because they wanted to take the car to the pound.

Mr. HUBERT. Before we get to that, how long after you got on duty and put the ticket on Mr. Ruby’s car, did the detectives arrive?

Mr. JACKSON. Oh, about an hour or so, I guess. I believe about an hour or so.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, did they have any difficulty in opening the doors of the car?

Mr. JACKSON. I never even noticed them until they was out there to the car. I was listening to the radio about it.

Mr. HUBERT. What did you say with reference to the detectives, what they were doing?

Mr. JACKSON. They were searching--they searched the car.

Mr. HUBERT. The doors were open by the time you saw it?

Mr. JACKSON. They was searching the car.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, now, answer my question, were the doors open or do you remember?

Mr. JACKSON. When I seen them they were searching they must have been open.

Mr. HUBERT. When you say “searching,” do you mean they were searching the back?

Mr. JACKSON. Looking for a key. They said they were looking for a key.

Mr. HUBERT. Key to what? The ignition?

Mr. JACKSON. The ignition key, and I think the trunk key, and they opened up the trunk and there was a bunch of sacks in the trunk. I don’t know what was in them, and after they told me they was detectives, that was Jack Ruby’s car, and I just took the ticket off the car and they were going--said they was going to take the car to the pound, and said something or another about calling somebody.

Mr. HUBERT. Doing what?

Mr. JACKSON. Said something or another about calling somebody, some of his relatives or something to see what they wanted to do with his dog. They were going to take the car to the pound.

Mr. HUBERT. Did they do anything with this dog, that you know of?

Mr. JACKSON. I don’t know. They took the car to the pound.

Mr. HUBERT. What happened to the dog? Was it still in the car when they took it?

Mr. JACKSON. Yes; the dog was still in the car.

Mr. HUBERT. Did they make any calls that you knew of?

Mr. JACKSON. They went over and used the other telephone in John L. Daniels’ office.

Mr. HUBERT. I see.

Mr. JACKSON. See, I don’t have one in mine.

Mr. HUBERT. But you say you got to work about 12 o’clock?

Mr. JACKSON. Yes; around noon.

Mr. HUBERT. Had you been hanging around before going on duty, or come directly----

Mr. JACKSON. No; I come directly from home and went to work.

Mr. HUBERT. You didn’t pass by the jail, or look around the jail?

Mr. JACKSON. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Are you sure it was 12 o’clock, and not 11 o’clock, that you went on duty, sir?

Mr. JACKSON. It was around noon somewhere. I don’t know--I don’t know just what time it was, because I usually come down around 1 o’clock, but sometimes I get down there a little earlier.

Mr. HUBERT. It was after half past 11 in the morning?

Mr. JACKSON. Yes, sir; I’m pretty sure it was after.

Mr. HUBERT. When did you first find out that Oswald had been shot?

Mr. JACKSON. Well, we had a boy that run the lot during the day through the week and had a radio down there, and I usually turned it on when I come in, and when I put it on that was what was on.

Mr. HUBERT. The news was that he had already been shot?

Mr. JACKSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you know a man by the name of Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mr. JACKSON. No, sir; I didn’t.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, have you ever been interviewed by any member of the President’s Commission staff?

Mr. JACKSON. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Never been interviewed by me before?

Mr. JACKSON. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, Mr. Jackson, I think that is all. Thank you very much.

TESTIMONY OF ANDREW ARMSTRONG, JR.

The testimony of Andrew Armstrong, Jr., was taken at 9:15 a.m., on April 14, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr., assistant counsel of the President’s Commission.

Mr. HUBERT. This is the deposition of Mr. Andrew Armstrong.

Mr. Armstrong, my name is Leon Hubert. I am a member of the advisory staff of the General Counsel of the President’s Commission on the assassination of President Kennedy. Under the provisions of Executive Order 11130, dated November 29, 1963, the Joint Resolution of the Congress, No. 137, and the rules of procedures adopted by the Commission, in conformance with the Executive order and the joint resolution, I have been authorized to take this sworn deposition from you, Mr. Armstrong.

I state to you that the general nature of the Commission’s inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate, and report upon the facts relative to the assassination of President Kennedy, and the subsequent violent death of Lee Harvey Oswald.

In particular, as to you, Mr. Armstrong, the nature of the inquiry today is to determine what facts you know about the death of Oswald and any other pertinent facts you may know about the general inquiry and about Jack Ruby and his operations and associates and so forth.

Now, Mr. Armstrong, I think you have appeared here today by virtue of a letter written to you by Mr. J. Lee Rankin, General Counsel of the Staff of the President’s Commission, asking you to be present. Isn’t that correct?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. That’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. When did you receive that letter, Mr. Armstrong?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. 2 days ago.

Mr. HUBERT. You mean on Sunday?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. On a Saturday--I’m sorry.

Mr. HUBERT. That would be Saturday, April 11th.

Do you have any objection at the, present moment to having your deposition taken today?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Will you rise and raise your right hand so that I may administer the oath.

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give in this matter will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Would you state your full name, please?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Andrew Armstrong, Jr.

Mr. HUBERT. How old are you, Mr. Armstrong?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. 27.

Mr. HUBERT. Where do you live?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. 3821 Dixon Circle, apt. C.

Mr. HUBERT. In Dallas?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Dallas.

Mr. HUBERT. Are you married?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. How long have you been married?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. 10 months.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you have any children?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. One, a little girl.

Mr. HUBERT. Have you ever been married before?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. What is the maiden name of your wife?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Childress.

Mr. HUBERT. And her first name?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Eleanor Childress.

Mr. HUBERT. Where were you born?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Pittsburg, Tex., Cass County.

Mr. HUBERT. How long did you live there?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Unofficially--14 years.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you go to school there?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. And when you left that place, where did you go?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Here to Dallas.

Mr. HUBERT. To Dallas?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Have you been in Dallas ever since?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you complete your education in Dallas?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No--I didn’t complete it--I went to the 11th grade.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, I mean what education you do have was finished in Dallas?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. It was finished in Dallas.

Mr. HUBERT. How far did you go?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. 11th.

Mr. HUBERT. At what age did you quit school?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. At 16, I think--16 or 17.

Mr. HUBERT. How have you been occupied since you left school?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well----

Mr. HUBERT. I mean, what work have you done?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. A number of things--should I go through them?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes; just briefly.

Mr. ARMSTRONG. I was--right after I left school, I was caddymaster at River Hills golf course. I left there and went to--well, I had a job at Vick’s Cafeteria in the Republic Bank Building--no, no--I’m sorry, it was Wilson’s Cafeteria, and then Vick’s Restaurant; then Vinson Still.

Mr. HUBERT. Is Vinson Still a corporation or individual?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. It was a corporation.

Mr. HUBERT. What kind of work did you do then?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Cut stainless steel--I mean--filled orders of stainless steel and magnesium--cut magnesium. I started out as a porter.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, continue.

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Then, I did a prison stretch for marihuana for 3 years.

Mr. HUBERT. Were you convicted in State court?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. State court.

Mr. HUBERT. In Dallas?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. When were you convicted?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. 1958.

Mr. HUBERT. And you were sentenced to how many years in prison?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Five.

Mr. HUBERT. How many did you actually serve?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Three.

Mr. HUBERT. That was on a charge of possession? Possession and sale of marihuana?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember the date of your release?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. The date was March 18, 1961.

Mr. HUBERT. Was that on a parole situation?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No; that was discharged.

Mr. HUBERT. That was what?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Discharge.

Mr. HUBERT. How was the time reduced then from 5 years to approximately 3?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, in this State you do 3 years or do 5.

Mr. HUBERT. You mean for good time and so forth?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, for good time you can reduce some of that time.

Mr. HUBERT. The point is, that when you left the prison you were not on probation?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. I was not on probation. When I came back I started to work at the Holiday Hills Apartments, belonging to the Hunt Oil Co., and Bowman Real Estate, I think it was.

Mr. HUBERT. That’s in Dallas here?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. In Dallas.

Mr. HUBERT. What kind of work did you do then?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, I was a maintenance man out there.

Mr. HUBERT. At the Holiday Hills Apartments?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. That’s owned by the Hunt Oil Co.?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. What is the Bowman Real Estate?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, he was the one that built it, I think he built it and sold it for half interest or something.

Mr. HUBERT. What Hunt is that in the Hunt Oil Co.?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. It’s H. L. Hunt Co.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know Mr. Hunt?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know a man by the name of Lamar Hunt?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. I have seen him--I don’t know him.

Mr. HUBERT. Is that the same man as H. L. Hunt Oil Co.?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. That’s the same man--he was in charge, and when I left the Holiday Hills----

Mr. HUBERT. Well, before you leave the Holiday Hills and Hunt Oil Co., you say that you have seen a Mr. Hunt, but have not talked to him?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No, sir; I have never talked to him.

Mr. HUBERT. And that one you saw was H. L. Hunt?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No, no--it was Lamar, and a few of his brothers, a couple of his brothers, I think it was--it was on the 4th of July or a Labor Day, I don’t know which one it was, I don’t recall, and they had a party out there.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know the relationship between Lamar Hunt and H. L. Hunt?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. What is that?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Father and son.

Mr. HUBERT. But you never met H. L. Hunt?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. But you have seen him?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Who employed you over there?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. A Mrs. Pierson was the manager. I dropped in one afternoon for a job and she gave me the opportunity to work there for a week to see if I did a good job, so she hired me.

Mr. HUBERT. When you were employed by this lady to work for the Holiday Hills Apartments, did they know you had been in the penitentiary?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.

Mr. HUBERT. How long after you left the penitentiary did you apply and receive the job?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Let’s see, it was sometime during the summer of 1961.

Mr. HUBERT. About the middle of the summer, you mean?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. I’m pretty sure--I think it was about the middle of the summer.

Mr. HUBERT. What did you do in the meantime, between March when you left the penitentiary?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, I mostly just picked up odd jobs trying to make a buck, just odd jobs, whatever I could find to do.

Mr. HUBERT. Have you kept out of trouble ever since?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes. I have an application in for full pardon, recommended by Mr. “Bill” Decker himself.

Mr. HUBERT. By Mr. who?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. The sheriff.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know the sheriff?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. How did you come to know him?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, mostly through--I’ve seen him more times through going down to visit Jack, because you had to go through Mr. Decker.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you know Mr. Decker prior to the time that Oswald was killed?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Not too well--well, no, in a way I did and in a way I didn’t.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, explain that, please.

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Back when I was a caddymaster at River Hills golf course someone broke in it out there and I was picked up on investigation, which someone else testified to later that they had did it.

Mr. HUBERT. At first they thought you had done it?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes--that’s when I first met Mr. Decker.

Mr. HUBERT. How often did you see him after you left the penitentiary and until the shooting of Oswald?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, I only saw him--let’s see--we will come back to about January 1962--I had got a job at Marilyn Belt Factory just across from the county jail, and I used to see Mr. Decker, you know, I used to pass him on the street there and I would always speak to him, which he always would speak back, which he would always speak back to everyone who speaks to him whether he knows them or not, and I guess I saw him 10 or 15 times.

Mr. HUBERT. Were you ever in his office?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Not until after the slaying of Lee Oswald, the one time was for the investigation.

Mr. HUBERT. So, in other words, after you left the penitentiary your acquaintance with Sheriff Decker amounted to nothing more than seeing him on the streets and saying “hello?”

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. You never conversed with him?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you have any reason to believe he knew your name?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No, he didn’t know my name until after the slaying.

Mr. HUBERT. Can you tell us why he has agreed now to support your application for a pardon?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, I believe that Mr. Decker did some investigating on me and when I went in to ask him, he went through the procedure of having my record checked, since I have been out, and before he recommended me.

Mr. HUBERT. Tell me, in connection with the application for a pardon, is it necessary to get the approval of the sheriff?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. It is necessary to get the approval of some officer.

Mr. HUBERT. And you chose the sheriff?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. And I chose the sheriff. I was either going to choose the sheriff or Mr. Gilmore, the head of the vice squad. He has been in the club lots of times.

Mr. HUBERT. What is his name?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Gilbert--I don’t know whether he’s in charge of the vice squad for the city or not, but he is around and he has been to the club, checking in like he does, like policemen do, and he got to--he would always speak to me when he come in and he was always very nice and I was always very nice to him and I’m pretty sure he had some checking done on me, too.

Mr. HUBERT. But, in any case, you chose Sheriff Decker?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. But I chose one of the two of them because I didn’t know anybody else to approach--any other officers.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, I think we had left off with our analysis of your employment since you left the penitentiary, that you had worked for the Holiday Hills Apartments--how long did you work for them?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Oh, about 8 or 9 months--it wasn’t too long.

Mr. HUBERT. And that employment began, in the summer of 1961?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes, and it ended a little before Christmas--I think it was around the 1st of December.

Mr. HUBERT. Of 1961?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Of 1961.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, it would hardly have been 9 months.

Mr. ARMSTRONG. I believe that’s right--I imagine.

Mr. HUBERT. You think then, you actually began to work with them probably in May or June of 1961?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well----

Mr. HUBERT. Well, you see, if you left just before Christmas?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. You know, come to think of it, I think it was, because it was around the spring--so it must have been about the last of April or the 1st of May.

Mr. HUBERT. Then, you worked for about 7 months and left around Christmas?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. What was the reason for your leaving?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Discharged.

Mr. HUBERT. What caused it?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. I don’t know the cause.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you ask?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, I have recently, 5 or 6 days ago--Mrs. Pierson who is not there any more, and I wanted to ask her.

Mr. HUBERT. Mrs. Pierson being the lady who had originally employed you?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. She was the one who discharged you, too?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, what about 5 or 6 days ago?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. I wanted to contact her to find out why I was discharged. I have a reason--it was because of one of the maids out there, but I’m not for sure.

Mr. HUBERT. You mean you suspect that it was on the complaint of one of the maids?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, yes; something like that--something.

Mr. HUBERT. But, you did not reach Mrs. Pierson?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. So, you really don’t know even now?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. I’m still trying to find out.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you ask her at the time?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. I asked her at the time and was refused to be told why.

Mr. HUBERT. That was Christmas, 1961--what was your next employment?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Let’s see--at the Marilyn Belt Factory in January.

Mr. HUBERT. That’s the place that’s right opposite the sheriff’s office?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Right opposite the sheriff’s office.

Mr. HUBERT. How long did you work for them? Commencing in January 1962.

Mr. ARMSTRONG. I worked for them 2 months, then I got the job at the Carousel Club with Jack and I held both of the jobs for about a month and it got to where I had to let one go, so I let the Marilyn Belt Factory go.

Mr. HUBERT. So that you began to work at the Carousel Club in about February of 1962?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. How did you get employment with the Carousel Club?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Let’s go back--it wasn’t in February--you see, I started to work at the Marilyn Belt Factory in February, and I worked about 2 months with the Marilyn Belt Factory--that’s February and March and April--3 months, because I started to work for Jack the 1st of May, about the second day in May.

Mr. HUBERT. In 1962?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. In 1962.

Mr. HUBERT. Then you worked both places for about a month?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. For about a month.

Mr. HUBERT. Which would take you to June 1, 1962, and then you had to make a choice, so you decided to go with the Carousel Club and you left the other job?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, coming back to the question--how did you come to be employed in May of 1962 at the Carousel Club?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Just walked in and he was sitting down talking to some man--I have never saw him before--yes, I have--he was a waiter over at the Baker Hotel.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you hear that there was an opening there?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Had you known Jack Ruby before?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Was there any advertisements in the paper?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Was there any sign on the door indicating that help was needed?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Can you help us in ascertaining why you just walked in to get the job?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, it was on a Saturday morning and I decided I would go look for me a night job some place.

Mr. HUBERT. What you wanted was a night job to supplement your income?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. What I wanted was a night job, so I decided the club would be the best thing, so I went to three or four clubs, and when I went to Field and Commerce, I was going to go to H. L. Green’s for a cup of coffee or something like that and I started back up Commerce and I saw the door open there and I just pulled over and went in.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, you had tried three or four other places before you went to the Carousel?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. On this same Saturday morning?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. On this same date.

Mr. HUBERT. And that was about the 2d of May, I think you said, in 1962?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Right--about the 2d of May, I’m pretty sure.

Mr. HUBERT. It was in the first part of May, do you think?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Pardon?

Mr. HUBERT. It was about the first part of May, you think, and it was a Saturday morning?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. I have a calendar for 1962 before me, and it shows the first Saturday in May was the 5th.

Mr. ARMSTRONG. It was the 5th?

Mr. HUBERT. I’m showing you that calendar for 1962; does that help you any?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, you see--why I said the 2d was later on, we tried to figure--I was signing a couple of checks about 2 weeks later and we were trying to figure out what date I started so I could fill out a W-2 form and we got to counting the days and we counted back to the 2d, so this was on a Saturday--it was on a Saturday, so it must have been the 5th. You see, things always happen so fast when you was around Jack because he was just like this--flighty.

Mr. HUBERT. The day you walked in there, he was in the Carousel--he was in the office?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No, he was sitting down there, just sitting in the club at a table.

Mr. HUBERT. Was he alone?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. He was talking to a waiter from across--it was a waiter across the street which worked up there that night, that Saturday night, and he never worked there any more, but that only one night that I know of.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, tell us how you introduced yourself and how he came to employ you, and so forth?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, I asked him if he needed any help at night and he said as a matter of fact he did and he said, “I’ve been looking for a clean-cut young man like you,” and so he said a few things--he asked me had I ever been in any kind of trouble and naturally I told him, “No.” I always tell people “No,” unless it is absolutely necessary, so he said to come back that night, so I went back that night and worked.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you fix your salary at that time?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No, not exactly. We fixed the salary the next day, no, the Monday--the following Monday.

Mr. HUBERT. And what was that salary?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. That salary was $40 or $45 a week.

Mr. HUBERT. Did it remain that way or did you get an increase?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, it remained that way.

Mr. HUBERT. You never got any more than that?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No; just plus tips.

Mr. HUBERT. What was your job around there?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, at first it was just bartending and then it got to be--it was bartending, then it got to be straightening the place up a little bit because there was another man that came in, Howard Haynes.

Mr. HUBERT. Howard Haynes?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes, but he always did sort of a half job, and so then it got to be where I spent most of the afternoon there just taking phone calls and reservations and things like that, and taking care of all of the buying and things like that.

Mr. HUBERT. What do you mean by taking care of the buying?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, taking care of the buying--whatever that had to be bought--whatever stock they needed--no food, just beer.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, as I understand you, as you stayed on longer, you assumed more responsibility?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. And more duties?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Right, and they got me to where I was doing the hiring of the waitresses and contacting different peoples about acts and things like that.

Mr. HUBERT. Ruby delegated the authority to you to actually employ people, both as waitresses and for acts?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, not actually employ them for acts, but contact them--he already knowed who he wanted and I just contacted certain persons.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, you would do the legwork, shall we say, about getting these acts?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Certainly not all of them, just some of them--when he didn’t have time to.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever tell Jack, or did he ever find out you had been in the penitentiary?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No; I never told him.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know whether he knows to this day about it?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. I don’t know whether he knows--you see, I never told anyone connected with him until the trial, and then I told Mr. Phil Burleson.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you testify in the trial?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.

Mr. HUBERT. You had been subpenaed, I think.

Mr. ARMSTRONG. I was subpenaed.

Mr. HUBERT. Did it get to the point where you handled the money of the club?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. How was the money handled?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, I was--I always had $225 in my possession. That was for a bank every night, you know, to start things off and at the end of the night when I checked up, I would give him the receipts for the night and I would take what I had put in back to the safe and so, with the buying on Thursdays, when I took care of all of the purchases, I would give him the receipts and the total of the receipts--he would return the money to me.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, you always kept for making change for beginning the night’s operation, the sum of $225.

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. And the next day after the night’s operation, you would turn over to him----

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No; I would always give it to him that night.

Mr. HUBERT. The same night?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes, sir; the same night.

Mr. HUBERT. You would give him everything but the $225.

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, what about paying for the goods that you bought?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, that was--happened the same way.

Mr. HUBERT. Was it a cash basis?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes; most everything was cash.

Mr. HUBERT. You would pay it out of the $225.

Mr. ARMSTRONG. I would pay it out of the $225, and he would give me the money back that I had spent.

Mr. HUBERT. So, that, you began with $225 each night?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. And usually he would put the money in the safe, that is to say, the amount of $225?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No, I would put the $225--I kept that money.

Mr. HUBERT. You kept the $225?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, I put it in the safe.

Mr. HUBERT. That’s the $225 only?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Just the $225 only.

Mr. HUBERT. When did you have a safe, when did you get one?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, he always has had a little old safe in the office. This was a little cabinetlike thing.

Mr. HUBERT. Was that one that had a slot on the side of it, so you could slip the money in it?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No, not that one. He had just recently bought that one--I would say it was in October last year.

Mr. HUBERT. Previous to the safe which was bought in October, there was another safe?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. And he kept that in the office?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. He kept that in the office--it was a cabinet you opened with a key. It had little cabinet drawers in it and some little small ones.

Mr. HUBERT. It didn’t have a combination?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No; no combination.

Mr. HUBERT. Was it a filing cabinet like--it had two file cabinet drawers, about the size of those on the left-hand side there?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Let the record show that the witness is pointing to the usual legal size four drawer steel cabinet.

Mr. ARMSTRONG. But only two of those on the left-hand side and on the right-hand side at the top it was three or two little drawers, about the size of one of those stacks and one about that deep, where you could open it with a key.

Mr. HUBERT. So, it really had two keys?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No, just the one--the same key would fit the one on the inside.

Mr. HUBERT. Did Jack keep the money that you gave him as to the profit over the $225 in that place, too?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No, he never kept anything.

Mr. HUBERT. How did he handle that?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. I don’t know--he usually would go to the bank once or twice a week, or, he mostly kept--usually he kept the payroll on him.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he have a checking account?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. He had an account at the Texas Bank--no, at the Merchants State Bank on Ross Avenue.

Mr. HUBERT. Is it your impression that he would deposit this cash in that account?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. There was always a little money in that account, but I don’t know whether he deposited it or not--all of it in that account or not.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he pay his bills, such as for the stripteases and the band?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Every Sunday night.

Mr. HUBERT. In cash or check?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. In cash.

Mr. HUBERT. And he paid all the supplies and purchases in cash, too?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. In cash.

Hr. Hubert. Do you know if he paid anything by check?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. That, I don’t know.

Mr. HUBERT. What about the rent?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. What?

Mr. HUBERT. What about the rent?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. The rent was paid by cash with a cashier’s check.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever purchase a cashier’s check?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. He would give you the money and you went to the bank and got the cashier’s check for it?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Cashier’s check.

Mr. HUBERT. But when you said a little while ago that he would take the money and go to the bank, what did you mean?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, he would always go two or three time--I’m sure--a week, that he was at the bank. I don’t know whether he deposited money or not, but he did have an account and there was an account there in the name of the Carousel Club.

Mr. HUBERT. But do you know of your own knowledge whether he used it as a checking account normally is used?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. It was used as a checking account, but I never--I have seen checks that he had written, that was, you know, after they went through and then he got them back--I had seen those.

Mr. HUBERT. Canceled checks--you mean?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No, no; checks that went through the bank already and went through his deposit.

Mr. HUBERT. That’s what I mean by canceled checks--in other words, after the check goes through, it is returned to the maker.

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Returned--yes--right.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he have a lot of those?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. I saw quite a few small payments on different things, but I don’t know whether he had a whole lot of them or not.

Mr. HUBERT. What I am trying to get at, Mr. Armstrong, is whether or not Ruby kept the income from the Carousel on his person or did he deposit it in the bank?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, I believe that the biggest part of his money, he kept it in his purse on his person.

Mr. HUBERT. Have you any idea how much he would have on his person in that way as an average?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No, it would be hard to say, because I have seen times when he would come in and he would have quite a bit of money in his pocket, but it would all be, you know, rubber bands--wrapped around with rubber bands, and he never would take it a’loose or anything like that. A few times he would get it all mixed up in his pocket and he would straighten out the tens and the ones--separate the ones from the fives, you know.

Mr. HUBERT. Who made the payroll?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. He made the payroll.

Mr. HUBERT. Didn’t you ever do that?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. After the slaying.

Mr. HUBERT. No, I mean before that.

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you assist him in making the payroll?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No; I didn’t work on Sunday night.

Mr. HUBERT. And that’s when he paid everybody?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. That’s when he paid everybody.

Mr. HUBERT. But you do know he paid by cash?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. He paid by cash.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever see him take any money to his automobile?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. What would he do with it when he put it in his automobile?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. What would he do with it? He would put it in his trunk--that he had in his pocket he would keep in his pocket--and that he had in his little moneybag he would put it in his trunk.

Mr. HUBERT. He had a moneybag in the trunk?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. He had a little sack--the same one he carried his pistol in, in a little Merchants State Bank, a little moneybag.

Mr. HUBERT. And the pistol was in that bag?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Usually it would be in one of those little money bank bags.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever see him carry the pistol on his body?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No; it would always be in a little bag.

Mr. HUBERT. There was no occasion at all when you ever saw him have that pistol in his pocket or stuck in his waist belt?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know what he kept the pistol for?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, I always assumed he kept it for--because he carried the cash on him.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, the pistol wouldn’t do him much good in the trunk of the car if he had the cash on his body, would it?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No; not much.

Mr. HUBERT. Have you any other reason then to suggest as to why he did?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, he would always bring it in the club at night.

Mr. HUBERT. Pistol?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. It was brought in just in case he was robbed or something like that.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, let’s see--we have a little difference there--I had understood you to say that the pistol was always kept in the bag which was in the trunk of the car.

Mr. ARMSTRONG. But I said he would always bring it in when he would come to the club.

Mr. HUBERT. I see, but when he would bring it in, he would not put it on or keep it on his person?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Would he bring it in in the bag?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. He would bring it in in the bag and put it in the office back there.

Mr. HUBERT. So, there would be the money and the pistol and the bag that were all in the office?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. All in the office.

Mr. HUBERT. And then at night he would take the money and the pistol, which were in the bag, and bring it out to the car?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. And bring it out to the car, but most of the time the money that he had in his bag would be left in the car, unless he was up early in the day and was handling cash--he just left it in the office some place because he wasn’t going back out, but if he left, and went home to get dressed or something like that, and come back about 9:30 or 10 o’clock, he would lock the money, if he had it in the back in the trunk.

Mr. HUBERT. Is it fair to say that almost every night he would bring the pistol from the car to the club?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes; to the club.

Mr. HUBERT. And then when he left at night, he would carry the pistol back?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. And it was always in the bag?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Always in the bag, that I know of.

Mr. HUBERT. Where did he keep the pistol in the club?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Back in the office.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever see him use it?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. I don’t mean by shooting anybody, but by hitting somebody with it?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No; I never saw him use it.

Mr. HUBERT. Can you tell us what sort of man he was?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Worried and disturbed always.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, how did that manifest itself so that you could tell that he was worried and disturbed always?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Now, I’ll tell you this--there was always--if he was sitting down inside the club in the daytime at one of the tables and some people came in, he would always want to hold a conversation with them, he would always want to talk about something, and I have seen numbers of times when someone had said something about a certain thing, he would get angry about it without even knowing it--he would just get angry, just like that, but that would pass over in a matter of seconds.

Mr. HUBERT. When he got angry, how did he act?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. He would always let people know if they said anything that he didn’t like.

Mr. HUBERT. How did he act?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Sort of like--ungentlemanlike in a nice way--let me see if I can explain it any better?

Mr. HUBERT. I wish you would.

Mr. ARMSTRONG. It was like--I’ll give you an example, which is the best way I can explain it.

Mr. HUBERT. All right.

Mr. ARMSTRONG. I have seen at times when he would walk up to someone that had the feet out in the aisle and the girls couldn’t get by or some man doing something that he didn’t have any business, like hitting the girls when they passed by, or something like that, and they would tell Jack--if he was in a certain mood or something was bothering him, he wouldn’t go over and say--ask his customers who were spending money in his club, in a nice way not to do that, he would just hit him on the shoulder like this and say, “Watch it, Buddy, I don’t allow that in my place”--you know--real mean like--which is something that I never approved of.