Chapter XXIII: Part 23

Mr. HUBERT. He did that quite often?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Quite often, and that’s the way it would happen with any stranger.

Now, if he knew someone, he would always hold off or get someone else to do it. If he knew somebody and they were doing something he didn’t like, he would always get me or one of the girls to do it.

Mr. HUBERT. We started off this sequence of questions by your statement that he was always worried and disturbed, I think was the phrase, and you have given me that example. Weren’t there some times when he was not?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. There was very few times when he was not and I always had the feeling that if he had that smile and talking and laughing, if it lasts all night, I always had the feeling that he would still have that worried and disturbed look and expression, later on after the club closed, somewhere after--I don’t know--after he got in bed or the next morning or something like that. It never lasted long.

Mr. HUBERT. You got along all right with him, didn’t you?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. We got along--we was always arguing, differences of opinion and things like that.

Mr. HUBERT. Was he nasty with you?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Not--I wouldn’t say he was nasty. I would say if I didn’t know him--I would say he was nasty. I would say that I would go so far as to say that he was even cruel.

Mr. HUBERT. To you?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. To me and to a lot of the employees.

Mr. HUBERT. Give us some examples of the cruelty you are speaking of.

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, you could say--we had a speaker in the corner, a high fidelity speaker over in the right-hand corner.

Mr. HUBERT. A loudspeaker?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes, in the right-hand corner and it had to be turned on individually. It had to turned on or it wouldn’t come over the system and it was my job to see that it was turned on every night, and there was times I was too busy and had too many things to do and forgot about it, but not that often, and if he came in--the first thing he checked was the sound. The MC was on stage and if he couldn’t hear that box over there, he would come straight to me and it was like I had took half of the club away or something like that.

Mr. HUBERT. What would he say or do?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, he would just get all riled up about that--he would just get all riled up about that one little incident.

Mr. HUBERT. When you say “all riled up,” that’s your own words of description of what he was doing, but we don’t get just what his physical acts were unless you tell us. What is “riled up”? Raising his voice, cursing?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Raising his voice.

Mr. HUBERT. Throwing his voice--throwing his arms about, hitting people, doing what?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No, not hitting people--he wouldn’t ever hit anyone, but it always the impression that he might. There was always the feeling that he might.

Mr. HUBERT. Did his facial expressions change?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Sort of like.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he curse?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No--no more than--the only curse word that he would use more when he did use it was damn it.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, on occasions like he got all riled up, as you have told us, would it consist of calling you a fool or threatening to fire you or raising his voice, cursing you, what was it?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Threatening to fire me would be the thing, because he fired me 50 times or 100 times.

Mr. HUBERT. Apparently you didn’t stay fired.

Mr. ARMSTRONG. He threatened my job every day.

Mr. HUBERT. He threatened your job every day?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Almost every day.

Mr. HUBERT. And then what would happen?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Nothing--if I left he would call me back. If I left there fired, all I would have to do is come down and open the club up the next day and go on back to work.

Mr. HUBERT. He wouldn’t tell you you were fired, stay away; you wouldn’t even talk about the subject any more?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.

Mr. HUBERT. I can understand that that would happen after you had gone through that firing and rehiring once or twice, but first of all when you got fired, it must have seemed odd to you to go back?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, the first time that it actually really happened was one night he fired me on Saturday night. It was a Saturday night and I usually had a ride on Saturday night because the last bus run at 1 o’clock, and if I didn’t catch that ride at 1:30, well, I would have to get a cab, which I can’t afford to get a cab. It is $1.65. He said something about staying a little late-something--I don’t know--it was a meeting, I think. He was always calling meetings.

Mr. HUBERT. Meetings of whom?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Of waitresses.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, go ahead.

Mr. ARMSTRONG. And I said, “Well, I’ve got to catch my ride because I can’t spend cab fare, and you are not going to give me cab fare,” just like that, and I walked on out the door and he said, “Just don’t come back no more.” I said, “Okay,” and before I got downstairs, he had sent one of the girls downstairs to tell me that my week wasn’t up. It was on Saturday night--I worked during the day on Sunday to clean floors, and I worked during that day on Sunday 2½ hours cleaning the club up, and I said, “Well, okay, tell him okay, I’ll clean the club up tomorrow.” Just like that, and went on, because--I don’t know--you see, I understood Jack, and I knew what his reasons for sending her on down was--actually not to tell me to clean the floor up but to tell me I wasn’t really fired.

Mr. HUBERT. That was the first time you had gotten fired?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. That was the first time.

Mr. HUBERT. Then, you came back the next day and cleaned the club?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, he called about 11 o’clock----

Mr. HUBERT. That’s on Sunday morning?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Sunday morning and asked me, “Has anybody called,” and a few other things--he kept one of the dogs down there--he asked me had I fed the dog. He always asked me had I fed the dog, which he would know I fed the dogs. You know, and I would always reply, “You know I will always feed the dogs, why do you keep asking me have I fed the dogs?”

Mr. HUBERT. Anyhow, on this particular Sunday morning, what happened about your getting rehired?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, he just said, “I’ll see you Monday.”

Mr. HUBERT. And from then on out I take it you figured when he fired you like that the only thing you would have to do is come back, and that is how it worked out?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes, always, and he would come to the bar, I would say three times a night, and say, “If you can’t do like I want you to, get out. If you can’t do the things like I want you to, get out.” Well, there was an opinion there, because I know I was at the club more than he was and I had my eyes on more things than he did and if I did a thing I know was right, because I have already experienced it before, which he hadn’t----

Mr. HUBERT. What are you speaking of there?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, I’m speaking of----

Mr. HUBERT. I’m talking about the things you say you had observed which he had not?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, about certain things--you see, we had a system going that one thing that happened was the setups were served in a glass. If you wanted cold water or whatever you wanted--were served in a glass with the ice, with about this much room for liquor [indicating].

Mr. HUBERT. By “this much room” you are talking about 2 inches?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No; about an inch and a quarter.

Mr. HUBERT. All right.

Mr. ARMSTRONG. And some customers comes in there quite often and if one of the waitresses says, “Andrew, this is for so and so--Mr. so and so, and he wants his drink--he wants his setup filled so and so, in other words, about a quarter of an inch or an inch from the top, I would do it that way, because I am trying to satisfy the customer and if Jack happened to walk to the bar and see it that way, he would get all riled up because that’s Coca Cola he could be saving, and I never would go through the procedure of explaining it to him--why I filled it up that way.

Mr. HUBERT. What you are saying, I think, is that you had more of an opportunity to observe the likes and dislikes of the customers than he did?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Than he did.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever see him get angry and actually use physical violence respecting any patron or anybody at all?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, I have seen him grab a couple of men in the club and throw them out when they was due to leave--when he asked them to.

Mr. HUBERT. And when you say “throw them out,” would you explain what physical activity was involved?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No more than grabbing a guy and locking him behind his arm, you know, catching him through the arms this way [indicating], from behind.

Mr. HUBERT. And hustling him out?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. And hustling him out.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever see him strike anybody?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. I never saw him strike anybody. Of course, it was said to be a couple of times he did strike someone.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember an occasion when a taxicab driver came in there looking for someone?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. I wasn’t working there then.

Mr. HUBERT. You have heard about that occasion?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. I read about it.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever hear him threaten to throw any of the girls or anybody down the stairs of the club?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. A couple of times, I believe, I have heard him threaten to throw even a girl down the stairs.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, you distinctly remember the incident about the girl, don’t you?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, the one I remember was Diane.

Mr. HUBERT. What happened about that?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, Jack always said that Diane bugged him and I said we couldn’t afford to lose her because she was a good waitress--she made the club money and I would say he had told Diane that she had 2 weeks’ notice every other night for a whole year--they just didn’t get along.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, get to the point about threatening to throw her downstairs.

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, he had threatened to throw her down the stairs for some reason or other--I don’t recall.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he start to do it?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. He never put his hands on her--he didn’t touch her.

Mr. HUBERT. You never saw him put anybody out by the stair route?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No--just the customers.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, when he pushed the customers out, as you explained a little while ago, he did that by grabbing their arms from the back and hustling them out, you mean he hustled them downstairs?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Just to the door, the stairs door.

Mr. HUBERT. There was a door at the top of the stairs?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. There was a door at the top of the stairs, and he would automatically give somebody the sign to call the police.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you sleep in the club, ever?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, when I first started to work there when I was working the two jobs, I slept there so I could get up--I could sleep longer and be at Marilyn belt factory.

Mr. HUBERT. Do I understand from that, that after you left the factory, that you didn’t sleep there any more?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. About 3 or 4 weeks--about 3 weeks I did.

Mr. HUBERT. What was Ruby’s habit with respect to arriving at the club and going home, as far as you could observe?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Unpredictable.

Mr. HUBERT. What?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Unpredictable.

Mr. HUBERT. You mean he didn’t have a special time for calling and running in and so forth?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No; he didn’t have any special time.

Mr. HUBERT. He did call about feeding the dogs every day, didn’t he?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. He called.

Mr. HUBERT. That was pretty regular?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. I would always call his house when I got to the club about--anywhere from 12 to 1 o’clock.

Mr. HUBERT. You would call his house to check in with him?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. That’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. Then what?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. And then he would probably call me three or four times that day to see if any calls had come in or if he said, “I’ll be down to the club at a certain time and you can look for me; I’ll be there about 2 o’clock or about 3:30.”

Mr. HUBERT. Is it fair to say that this much was routine, when you got to the club around midday you would call him?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. That was a routine.

Mr. HUBERT. And it was also a routine that he would call you daily, three or four times a day, is it not?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. That’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. Whether he came in or not--there was no routine about that?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No--there was no routine about that. The most routine he had was about coming in the club at night.

Mr. HUBERT. Tell us about that.

Mr. ARMSTRONG. He was very seldom there at showtime--that’s 9 o’clock--but he would always be in by 10 o’clock. In other words, he would always come in between 9 and 10.

Mr. HUBERT. And how long did he stay?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. He would close up.

Mr. HUBERT. Which was what time?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Around 1 o’clock, I would say. He would usually spend more time at the club after the show than anybody else. In other words, if I was closing up I would be right out; if he was closing up, he would walk around and he would look for this and he would check that and just a waste of time--if he had anyone waiting on him they would probably be gone to sleep before he left.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you have to wait until all of this was finished before you left?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No; I would always leave before the last show. In other words, I caught a 1 o’clock bus; I caught the 1 o’clock bus.

Mr. HUBERT. So you weren’t there most of the time when the club closed?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.

Mr. HUBERT. This settlement you made with him every night was really before the club closed?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. The settlement was for the bar; on week nights, you didn’t have any bar which was after 12:15 unless it was near-beer or anything like that, and I usually checked the bar--checked my receipts and count my money--started about a quarter to 1 and if there were any sales after I left he would take them himself.

Mr. HUBERT. And that settlement that you and he went through was in his office, I take it? Or right at the bar?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No; you see, I would wrap all the money up and put it in a bag and wrap a rubberband around it. The change is all that was left, with a slip in the register of how much change it was.

Mr. HUBERT. Did the register record the sales?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. The register recorded the sales.

Mr. HUBERT. What was done with the slip of recordation?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. It was kept in the files.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he ever check to see whether the amount of sales checked out with the amount of money that you turned over to him?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Every day; if it was a nickel short he would call me over the phone or he would tell me about it when I called him.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, this checkout would not be done when you turned over the money to him at night, but, rather, the next day?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. You see, I checked it myself.

Mr. HUBERT. Against the cash register?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Against the cash register.

Mr. HUBERT. And it was supposed to balance out?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. And I gave him the receipts, and anytime I walked up and gave him a receipt, if I was at least a dollar short or anything like that, I would say, “It’s a dollar short,” and just go ahead on. I would just hand him the receipts and he would usually stick them in his coat pocket and that’s the way it always would happen.

Mr. HUBERT. What about Sundays; did you come over then or did you call him the same way?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. I would call him on Sundays or he would call me. He would either tell me on Saturday night to wake him up a certain time on Sunday morning if he was going to get up early; if not, he would call me. He knew I would always leave anywhere from between 11 and 12 o’clock.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know where he lived during the time you worked for him?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, he lived once on Marsalis, I think it was, right around the zoo, and I think he lived on Ewing.

Mr. HUBERT. Those are the only two places you know of?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Those are the only two places I know of.

Mr. HUBERT. Had you ever been to either apartment?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. I went to both of them--once each.

Mr. HUBERT. Was he living with anybody at either one?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. The only one that I ever knowed that lived with him was George Senator.

Mr. HUBERT. But you didn’t see George Senator working there, did you; you didn’t see George Senator living with him?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.

Mr. HUBERT. What you know about George Senator living there comes from what people told you?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. From what people told me, and I called and he answered the phones and things like that, and Jack mentioned the fact that George kept all the food around and got him to eating again. You see, he usually was on a diet and certain foods he didn’t eat because he was on a diet, but if they were around him in his refrigerator he would eat them.

Mr. HUBERT. Was Jack a pretty strong man?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. He went to the gym quite often and exercised; is that what you mean--physical?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes; I know he went--I called him at the gym a number of times. If he would tell me he was on his way to the gym, he would be there, and that was three times a week, I’m sure.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you have any opportunity to observe whether he was a powerful man or not?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.

Mr. HUBERT. So, what you are telling us is he took exercise and went to a physical exercise club?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. He took exercise?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. What about the dogs that he kept there?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, there is nothing much about them--just some dachshunds.

Mr. HUBERT. How many did he have?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, at one time--first he had a little dog named Sheba, which was half Chihuahua or something, I don’t know what it were, and she got lost, and they were named Clipper and Sheba.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, he had Sheba right up to the last, didn’t he?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes; he had Sheba right up to the last.

Mr. HUBERT. What do you mean, “She got lost”?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No, no--I mean Sweetie--the little dog that got lost was named Sweetie.

Mr. HUBERT. I thought you said Sheba got lost.

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Sheba and Clipper were the only ones he had then, and then Sheba had some puppies and they grew back up to about 9 and he started giving those away and he kept one of those.

Mr. HUBERT. He kept all of those at the club?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No; they weren’t all at the club at one time.

Mr. HUBERT. I understand. What part of the club did he keep the dogs in, no matter how many he had?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. At the room away at the back--he kept them back there.

Mr. HUBERT. And your job was to feed them?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. I fed them every day.

Mr. HUBERT. And he was very strict about that, I take it?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. He was very strict about it. I would feed the, you know, the little dogs and play with them sometimes.

Mr. HUBERT. Have you had any opportunity to observe Jack’s attitude toward women?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No more than any other man, especially a single man.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, he was not married?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No; he was always on the make.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he go out any?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. You said he was “on the make.”

Mr. ARMSTRONG. All the time.

Mr. HUBERT. With reference to what kind of women?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Intelligent, beautiful.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, do you mean the people who came to the club, or the waitresses?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, some waitresses, some dancers, and some women that he had invited to the club.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he date any of them?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. He dated--yes.

Mr. HUBERT. How do you know that?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, from him--he told me a few girls he dated, and there were some girls that told me that they dated him.

Mr. HUBERT. Did any of the girls tell you anything about their sexual relationship with him, if any?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he ever tell you about any sexual relationship with any of them? With women.

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No. Not in that sense; no.

Mr. HUBERT. What about his attitude toward men from a sexual point of view?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. He didn’t have any attitude toward men.

Mr. HUBERT. You know what I am talking about--did he have any tendencies that you could observe of homosexuality?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.

Mr. HUBERT. You know what homosexuality is, don’t you?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. I suppose you have seen or met perhaps people who are alleged to be homosexual?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. I suppose, too, that you are able to recognize some of the characteristics of people who are homosexuals?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he have any of the such characteristics?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Not that I could observe.

Mr. HUBERT. Have you any reason whatsoever to believe that he was a homosexual?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No reason at all.

Mr. HUBERT. Have you any reason to believe whatsoever that he had any kind of sexual perversion? Do you know what I mean by that?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Not exactly.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, that he had sexual relationships either with women or men in other than the normal way?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know anything about any possibility of a strange sexual attitude that he might have had toward these dogs you are talking about?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No more than he loved them. I know that he would come in the club and he would lay down and take a nap and the dogs, too--Sheba would probably be lying very close to him, or one of the other little dogs, but I had a little dog that I did the same way myself.

Mr. HUBERT. What I’m getting at is his attitude in relationship to those dogs was that he loved the dogs in the way that any normal man would love dogs, and no more?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. Is that correct?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. What was the financial condition of the club, as far as you know?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Not good.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, now, before you expand into that, do you know when it opened, when the Carousel opened?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. I don’t know when the Carousel opened.

Mr. HUBERT. It was open when you went there?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. It was open when I went there.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know how long it had been open, had you heard?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, the first was in 1961 or I think of 1960--the last of 1960, because I think there was a prior club during 1960 there.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, the Carousel had been in existence as such and under that name for about 18 months before you went with it?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. I believe so.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, why do you think the financial condition of the club was not good?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, there was--compared to the other two clubs it was not good, because the other two clubs--the Theatre Lounge and the Colony Club--they did a lot more business than the Carousel did.

Mr. HUBERT. When you said they did more business, you mean they had more people in there?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. That would mean, I suppose, something--that there were more customers than the other place, but was the Carousel making money or losing money?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, I would say it was making enough to pay the bills and paying overhead.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever talk to Jack about that?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No; he would always--if we had a month of good business, he would say, “Business is picking up,” you know.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever make a calculation yourself--I don’t mean necessarily by putting it down in writing, but by thinking about what you knew had come in and what you knew had gone out, to figure out whether it was making or losing money?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, it was making a little, but how much I don’t know. It lost after the assassination, because I handled all that--all the receipts then.

Mr. HUBERT. What do you suppose were the average receipts that you know of, at least, for a week from the time you were there until Ruby went to jail?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Per week--for a week-- oh, I would say about an average of $900--or a $1,000.

Mr. HUBERT. Would that include Sunday nights’ receipts?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. That would include Sunday night’s.

Mr. HUBERT. How would you know about Sunday night?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Sunday was always a bad night--I would always know what was the receipts on Sunday night.

Mr. HUBERT. You weren’t in there.

Mr. ARMSTRONG. But I would always know--I would be the one to file the receipts.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know Ralph Paul?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Tell us what you know about him?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. I know that he is a very nice gentleman, a good businessman and didn’t want to be bothered with the Carousel.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he have any interest in the Carousel?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No; none whatsoever.

Mr. HUBERT. How do you know?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Financial interest?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes; financial interest.

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes, sir, I’m pretty sure he had financial interest, but I don’t know how much it was.

Mr. HUBERT. When you said a minute ago he had no interest, you meant interest in running it?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Interest in running the club.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he own a part of the club?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes, he owned a part of the club.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know how much?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No; I don’t know how much it was.

Mr. HUBERT. Was there any sharing of profits with him that you observed?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. I never observed any.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, as a matter of fact, didn’t he come there, several times a week?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Usually, he came in on Saturday night, if he came in. I never saw him there over one or two times.

Mr. HUBERT. Other than Saturday night?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Other than Saturday night.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever see Jack give him any money?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Never did.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever see him go back to the back room and discuss matters--or just go back with Jack?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. I saw him in the office talking and watching television.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, what makes you believe he had a financial interest?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Because he told me--he told me he had a financial interest in it and Jack said he had a financial interest.

Mr. HUBERT. Then, both Paul and Ruby told you that Paul had a financial interest in it?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Jack told me that he didn’t have no financial interest in the club.

Mr. HUBERT. Paul told you that he did, but Jack told you that he did not?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Jack told me that Ralph Paul had a financial interest in the club, but he, himself, did not.

Mr. HUBERT. Oh, that Jack himself did not?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, did you--did he tell you whether Paul was the only one who had a financial interest, or were there other people?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, he said that it was this Mr. Paul and one of his brothers.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he say which one?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Sam Ruby, I think, he said.

Mr. HUBERT. The one that lives in Dallas?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever see him around there?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Once--once or twice he came down to help out--once he came down to help out and he came in two other times that I remember.

Mr. HUBERT. So, in other words, Jack denied that he had any interest in the Carousel?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes, sir; right.

Mr. HUBERT. What was his relationship, then, to the Carousel?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, as manager only.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he get a salary, do you know?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. He said he got a salary, but I don’t know how much.

Mr. HUBERT. Other than the two or three times that Sam Ruby came in, did you ever see him?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Did I ever see Sam Ruby?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No; I never saw him.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever see Ralph, other than the times you saw him at the club?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Never did.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever hear of the S&R Corp.?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. What was your understanding of the relationship between that corporation and the Carousel?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, it was known as the S&R Corp. doing business as the Carousel, is the way the thing was supposed to be, and as far as the corporation was concerned, I understand that Ralph Paul was president, Sam Ruby was secretary-vice president and there was somebody else who was--well, I believe Sam Ruby was secretary-treasurer, and Jack was the manager, or something like that at one time, and then at another time, Jack wasn’t even the manager.

Mr. HUBERT. When was that?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, it was after all this happened.

Mr. HUBERT. Oh, yes.

Mr. ARMSTRONG. We were trying to find the corporation papers and he took his name off as being manager of the corporation.

Mr. HUBERT. Did George Senator work at the Carousel?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Sometimes he did.

Mr. HUBERT. How often?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Oh, I would say he had been there 15 or 20 times working as a doorman.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, do you mean 15 or 20 times during the 18 months you were there?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. During the 18 months that I was there.

Mr. HUBERT. That would be about once a month?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. About once--but I think it mostly came in a short period of time when he had worked there.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, the 15 or 18 or 20 times he did come was not on an average of once a month, but in a sequence of days?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. So that there were lots of times he was never around there?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. How often do you suppose you have seen him?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Quite often.

Mr. HUBERT. More than the 15 or 20 times that you saw him at the club?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, he was at the club lots of times when he was not working.

Mr. HUBERT. The 18 or 20 times--you mean were the times he worked?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. He was at the club more often than that?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. How often, as a matter of fact?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Oh, once or twice a week, I would say.

Mr. HUBERT. What would he do then?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Oh, just come in and have a beer.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he stay around a long time?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. And visit with friends.

Mr. HUBERT. Would he stay around a long time and go home with Jack?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Lots of times he was there when I left, and lots of times he left before I left, and I have seen him lots of times working, you know, he had this Texas Postcard thing and I would see him downtown. As a matter of fact, I helped him move the postcards from where--from some place out in Highland Park over to Cedar Springs here.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know anything about his relationship in a sexual way toward men?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No; I sure don’t.

Mr. HUBERT. In your own opinion, you wouldn’t think he would be classified as a homosexual?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.

Mr. HUBERT. He showed no traits such as you recognize them on homosexuality?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. None whatsoever.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you know Eva Grant?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes, sir; in a sort of a way.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, tell us what sort of way?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, I have talked to her on the telephone more times than I have seen her--a number of times more than I have seen her.

Mr. HUBERT. How many times do you suppose you have seen her in the 18 months you have worked there prior to Jack’s arrest?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Fifty times, I guess.

Mr. HUBERT. You talked to her on the telephone far more that 50 times--3 or 4 times more?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Where did you see her when you usually saw her?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. The first time I saw her was at the Vegas Club.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you work at the Vegas, too?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Tell us what you know about the ownership and operation of the Vegas?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Nothing; not a thing.

Mr. HUBERT. Did Jack have any interest in it that you heard of--I know you wouldn’t know about any books or anything like that.

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, he told me he owned the club.

Mr. HUBERT. That’s what I mean--so far as what you know about it, you got from him, and that was to the effect that he owned it?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. That he owned it--right.

Mr. HUBERT. What did you know about the relationship of Eva Grant to the Vegas Club.

Mr. ARMSTRONG. That she was just running the club. She was his sister and she was taking care of the club.

Mr. HUBERT. Did Jack go over there very often?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. I don’t know. On Friday and Saturday nights they usually have a little amateur show over there and we went over there every Friday night, but that stopped, oh, sometime in the latter part of 1963, and I don’t know whether he went over there often then or not. He would call me a few times from over there.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, the 50 or 60 times you saw her, Eva Grant, would it have been at the Vegas or the Carousel?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, I had saw her more times since the assassination than I did before the assassination.

Mr. HUBERT. Very well, but the 50 times or so you saw her from the time you first went to work, would that include the number of times you have seen her since the assassination?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well----

Mr. HUBERT. Because, I had meant to restrict this inquiry as to the number of times you had seen her between the time you went to work and the assassination.

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Very few times--very few.

Mr. HUBERT. Then, we have to revise, I think, to some extent, what your testimony has been, because I have been thinking that you had seen her some 50 times during the period between May 1962, and November 24, 1963, but apparently I was wrong on that.

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No; I hadn’t saw her over 10 times on that.

Mr. HUBERT. So, there are about 10 times you have seen her in the period of time prior to the assassination?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. And where would that have been usually?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, I would say three times at the Vegas and the other seven times at the club. I would say she came in the club seven times and these times would be on a Monday night, I would say, about seven times she had been in that club.

Mr. HUBERT. Why do you say 7 instead of, for instance, 12 or 5?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, I’m just saying I remember seeing her 3 times--I can almost pinpoint the times that I saw her. Let’s see--she came there--Monday, Tuesday----

Mr. HUBERT. Well, we need not go into the details--apparently you have some reason you remember seeing her at the club?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, I was going by the times I saw her with a certain person.

Mr. HUBERT. Who was that certain person?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, I know that I had saw her with a little waitress named Susie--the first time I saw her at the club.

Mr. HUBERT. At the Carousel?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Right. The next time I saw her at the Carousel she had come in with some people that I never saw before, and she always introduced me to whoever she was with if I don’t know them, and the next time she came in, I think it was the accountant, Mr. Klinman, and then again she came in with some more people that I didn’t ever know before.

Mr. HUBERT. Different from the first group?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Different from the first group and again she came in by herself about three times--three times--I’m sure--by herself, alone.

Mr. HUBERT. That makes about seven or eight times?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. At the Carousel?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. At the Carousel.

Mr. HUBERT. And at the Vegas you saw her three times?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Three times--I was at the Vegas Club three times, I think, and saw her there.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, during the period beginning from the time you first began to work there and until the assassination, how many times did you speak to her by telephone?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Three or four times a week.

Mr. HUBERT. What was that about?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Oh, nothing much--you see you--she would call you and forget what she called you for, or, just to talk about her troubles.

Mr. HUBERT. Was it about the business of the Carousel?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, no, just about her troubles--just to talk about her troubles. She will call me, if she needed anything fixed, she wanted me to tell Howard to stop over and do some repair work for her. I have called her about something I might need for a second night and I couldn’t get it and if she had it I would send someone out for it or she would send it over to me, and things of that nature, but the biggest part of the time she called me was when she and Jack were in a row with each other.

Mr. HUBERT. Did that happen very often?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. They both--she would cry on my shoulder and he would cry on my shoulder about each other.

Mr. HUBERT. Did that happen very often?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Very often.

Mr. HUBERT. How often during the time you were there and until the assassination?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Every other week I would say.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, I don’t want to pin you down to anything mathematical, but during the period of 18 months, that’s pretty often.

Mr. ARMSTRONG. I would say so.

Mr. HUBERT. You are talking about something like--that would be 70 weeks roughly, and 18 months, and every other week would be about 35 times they had rows you know of?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. I would say about 35 times, if that’s the way the calculation is there.

Mr. HUBERT. How did these rows come to your attention?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Because they would always tell me. If it was something she didn’t want to do--if it was something she wanted to do and he didn’t want to do it, a lot of times it would maybe happen on the telephone from the club. It was sometimes--difference of opinions, about something.

Mr. HUBERT. Apparently they patched those things up too, didn’t they?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, apparently--they would always be back on good terms--it was just like, well, they were before, on the same key. In other words, Jack would get riled up and you will think he was going to walk off of this building and the next minute he was just as sweet as he could be and she was the same way.

Mr. HUBERT. What was the relationship of the club and Jack to the police department and the individual members of it?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, I think that the club had a good record and as far as policemen--there was no relation. There was not ever any certain policemen come into the club. We had patrolmen stop in for coffee sometimes, never the same one--hardly ever.

Mr. HUBERT. Would they be in uniform?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. In uniform--just like they do all the other clubs, and you would have the vice stopping in just like they do the rest of the clubs, walking around, looking around, never sit down.

Mr. HUBERT. Wasn’t there some special arrangement with reference to what they would be charged?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, the policemen always paid the same price as newsmen and their boys, which was 40 cents on beer, policemen, bellboys, hotel clerks and things like that and newsmen.

Mr. HUBERT. They all had a cut rate?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. They all had a cut rate.

Mr. HUBERT. That was true of members of the vice squad too?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. That included members of the vice squad. Of course, I never seen any members of the vice squad take anything to drink, any beer or anything like that.

Mr. HUBERT. I think you mentioned one particular member of the vice squad called Gilmore?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Mr. Gilmore.

Mr. HUBERT. Tell us about him?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, Mr. Gilmore is a man that will, I believe and everybody else believes, and Jack was afraid of Mr. Gilmore--I know of.

Mr. HUBERT. How do you know he was afraid of him?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. I know he was afraid of him because he was nervous whenever Mr. Gilmore was in the club.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he tell you he was afraid of him?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No--he would show it.

Mr. HUBERT. How would he show it?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. By--making sure that everything was perfect and if it was close to curfew then he would say all the glasses and bottles have to be off of the table by 1:15--12:15 week nights and 1:15 Saturday nights. If Mr. Gilmore was in the club at that time you would see Jack out in the audience hustling glasses and bottles off of the table, because he knew that if Mr. Gilmore saw anything or anybody drinking in there, he was subject to getting a 5-day suspension or a ten-day.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, when Gilmore was in the club he enforced the rules more strictly than when Gilmore was not in the club?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Watch over it more strictly, which is something that most club owners do when there are vice squad members in the clubs.

Mr. HUBERT. Then, was the relationship between Ruby and Gilmore different from the relationship of Ruby and any other member of the vice squad?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No; you see, the only time--no; not any different, because if there was any other member of the vice squad in there, which Mr. Gilmore is the only one I know by name, is because he is the one that most people fear.

Mr. HUBERT. You mean he has the reputation of being tougher than any of the other members of the vice squad?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, I guess that’s what it is. It’s just something you pick up. You never saw him arrest anyone, you never saw him close anyone’s club up----

Mr. HUBERT. Was he a captain or what was his rank, do you know?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. A lieutenant, I think.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know his first name?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No; I don’t know his first name.

Mr. HUBERT. Did Jack ever tell you anything about him?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No; he just said that some of the old time waitresses--we had one up there by the name of Alice and Jack and some other girl who was discussing Mr. Gilmore and they were discussing his reputation, and Alice mentioned the fact that Mr. Gilmore would arrest his mother if he caught her doing wrong.

Mr. HUBERT. What is her last name--what is Alice’s last name?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Her name is Alice Alexander.

Mr. HUBERT. She was what?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. She was a waitress.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you know anybody by the name of Alice Nichols?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. I talked to her about twice on the telephone--no, no; not Alice--this was Mrs. Blackmon, I’m sorry. Alice Nichols?

Mr. HUBERT. Alice Reeves Nichols.

Mr. ARMSTRONG. I heard the name.

Mr. HUBERT. You have never met her?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. I have never met her.

Mr. HUBERT. You have never talked to her?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, I want to get to the events and your activities, and the activities of others that you observed during the period just preceding the assassination of President Kennedy and for a few days thereafter. Now, first of all, did your routine follow the usual pattern that you have already described until the date of the assassination of President Kennedy?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Is there anything you can think of that was not ordinary during that period of time?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. That I can think of that was not ordinary?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No--everything was as usual.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you talk to Jack about the forthcoming visit of the President?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No; we didn’t discuss the visit of the President. As a matter of fact, I got behind on the date. I was planning on being downtown that day--that morning myself.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, now, didn’t you ask Jack to adjust your schedule in such a way that you could go and see the parade and see the President pass by?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, my schedule of the President was already passed by when I got downtown.

Mr. HUBERT. I’m talking about prior to the time--to November 22--a day or two before, didn’t you discuss with Jack about going to see the parade?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, I think I mentioned it to somebody that I would be over to see the parade.

Mr. HUBERT. Didn’t you talk to Jack about it?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. I don’t know for sure--it could have been Jack--now.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall any comment that he made about going to see the parade?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he seem to be interested in the President’s visit?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. I remember there was something about a conversation going on between him and someone that--I was passing by on the way to the bus--and it was that he seemed delighted that the President was coming to Dallas.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, you overheard Jack say something to someone to the effect that he was glad or delighted that the President was coming to Dallas?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember how long before the assassination you heard Jack say that?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No; I don’t--sure don’t.

Mr. HUBERT. Were there any special plans being made in the club in connection with the President’s visit?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, suppose you start off with your activities on the night before the President was shot, say the 21st--did you go home at the usual time?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. At the usual time.

Mr. HUBERT. Which is to say--1 o’clock?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. 1 o’clock.

Mr. HUBERT. And your time for reporting would have been when?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. My time for working was 1 o’clock the next day.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you report at 1?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes; I was there a little before 1.

Mr. HUBERT. How long before 1?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, you could say--let’s see, I stopped and got a haircut and I must have been on the 12 o’clock bus from out where I live.

Mr. HUBERT. What time did you get up that day?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. It was pretty early, I think I must have gotten up about 10 o’clock or 9:30--about 9 o’clock.

Mr. HUBERT. Then you went to get a haircut?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. I went to get a haircut.

Mr. HUBERT. And that’s all you did between the time you got up and the time you got to the club?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. That’s all I did.

Mr. HUBERT. And you got to the club about what time?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. It must have been about 12:15--12:20, or something like that, because when I got downtown I could see portions of the parade, you know, like I got off of the bus at Main and Field--at Main and Akard, I’m sorry, which is the usual stop, I always get off at Main and Akard, and further down you could see portions of the parade, but I felt that I had missed the parade--I didn’t realize that I had missed the parade until I was in the barber shop and thought, well, maybe I’ll get downtown, I said to myself, and I will see some portion of it, but when I got downtown I was surprised to see that the parade had already moved forward--further down.

Mr. HUBERT. Just for the record, what barber shop did you go to?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Moore’s Barber Shop on Scyene Road. I got to the club----

Mr. HUBERT. Now, before you get to that, wasn’t it your job to see that the beer was kept on ice?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. And how often did you check that?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Every day.

Mr. HUBERT. And when did you do it?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. That’s the first thing I did.

Mr. HUBERT. When you came in in the morning?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. When I came in in the afternoon.

Mr. HUBERT. You didn’t have any special days to do it?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. I did it every day.

Mr. HUBERT. What about the delivery of the beer?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Thursdays.

Mr. HUBERT. Only once a week?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Once a week.

Mr. HUBERT. And what time did that take place?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Anywhere from 11 on--Thursday. It was usually between 11 and 3 o’clock because I would usually leave the club at 3 o’clock.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, so you got to the Carousel about what time?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. About 12:15, I would say.

Mr. HUBERT. You had a key to get in, of course?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes--I went in and I had to use the restroom, and so I went to the restroom and then I heard a lot of sirens and I listened to the sirens for a second or two and they got louder and they got more sirens, so I decided I would go get my transistor and see what was going on, and that’s when I heard that there had been a shooting at the President or something like that. Somebody had tried to assassinate the President, or something, and then I run in and I woke Larry up--Larry was staying there.

Mr. HUBERT. Who is Larry?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Larry Crafard.

Mr. HUBERT. Where was he staying?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. He was sleeping in a little room there.

Mr. HUBERT. You say you went and woke him up?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. I woke him up.

Mr. HUBERT. How did you do it?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well--I shook him.

Mr. HUBERT. Was the door of his room closed or not?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, the door of his room was--no, it wasn’t closed.

Mr. HUBERT. How long had Larry been there?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. How long had he been there?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Mr. ARMSTRONG. He had been there since October, since the last of the State Fair.

Mr. HUBERT. Tell us what you know about him.