Chapter XX: Part 20

Mr. SMART. I talked to each one of them, told them to stand by and I would tell them when to report to the basement.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. Now, of course, nothing happened, he wasn’t moved that day, Oswald was not moved on Saturday?

Mr. SMART. Wait a minute. I am all crossed up.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I thought you were.

Mr. SMART. I am talking about the day he was moved.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Okay.

Mr. SMART. I am all crossed up.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Okay. That is why I asked you.

Mr. SMART. Sunday, wasn’t it?

Mr. GRIFFIN. That is why I asked you.

Mr. SMART. Sunday.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Okay.

Mr. SMART. I am speaking of Sunday, the day they moved him, now.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right.

Mr. SMART. Saturday, I didn’t do anything.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, before you came to work on Sunday, had you heard anything, even by way of rumor, with respect to the fact that Oswald might be moved that day?

Mr. SMART. That was when?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Came to work--before you arrived at work on Sunday morning.

Mr. SMART. No, sir; I didn’t hear anything.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now, where was Stevenson when he talked to you about having your men ready?

Mr. SMART. In his office.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And were you personally there or did you receive this by telephone?

Mr. SMART. I received it from him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And did you have any discussion with him at that time----

Mr. SMART. No, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. About the moving?

Mr. SMART. No, sir; he said have the men stand by and he would notify me when to have them report to the basement.

Mr. GRIFFIN. About how long was this before Oswald was actually moved, would you estimate?

Mr. SMART. I couldn’t say for sure, but I think I must have talked to him between--it must have been around 9 o’clock in the morning or maybe earlier. I am not sure. I didn’t make a note of the time.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And were there other department heads or bureau heads in there at the time that you got this information?

Mr. SMART. In and out.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have any information as to whether Stevenson made a general request to all bureaus to have their men stand by or was this just specifically directed toward you?

Mr. SMART. I think it was general.

Mr. GRIFFIN. That is, do you have any confirmation of that, have you talked to other bureau heads, for example, to find out?

Mr. SMART. Captain Jones.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What bureau is he connected with?

Mr. SMART. Forgery.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What about the other bureau heads there? Did you talk to them?

Mr. SMART. Captain Martin, we discussed it among ourselves about having our men stand by.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, when did you discuss it with those gentlemen?

Mr. SMART. Shortly after I talked with Stevenson.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I see.

Mr. SMART. It was general knowledge around that all of the men were supposed to stand by. You know how those things get out.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. I see. Now, when was the next time that you got any information about the movement of Lee Oswald?

Mr. SMART. In the neighborhood of 11 o’clock, it could have been before or after a little bit, Chief Stevenson told me to have my men report to the basement.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, what did you do when you took your men down to the basement?

Mr. SMART. I instructed the men to go down to the basement and I went with them.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you personally place these men----

Mr. SMART. No, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. In any positions?

Mr. SMART. No, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember if----

Mr. SMART. I turned them over to Captain Jones, he was handling that, and I told him, if I could help him, to let me know, that I would be down there, and he placed them.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you do at that point?

Mr. SMART. At that time, they were attempting to back this armored truck in, and I walked up the ramp, and they were having difficulty getting it in on account of the height of it and so forth, and Chief Batchelor was present, if I am not mistaken, he went down with us or in the group, and he and I decided with the driver that we couldn’t get it all of the way down, and parked it about a third of the way down, I guess.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you a uniformed officer?

Mr. SMART. Beg your pardon.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you wear a uniform?

Mr. SMART. No, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I want to get here a diagram that we have been using. I am going to ask you to mark on this diagram. This is a diagram of the basement. Here is the jail office.

Mr. SMART. Uh-huh.

Mr. GRIFFIN. The ramp up to Commerce Street, the ramp down from Main Street, and the garage area. Now, can you mark on this map or chart----

Mr. SMART. This ramp goes on out like this, doesn’t it?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. SMART. This is really a solid wall.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me explain what this is here. This is the basement wall, this far black line is the basement wall, which underneath the ground goes all of the way out to the sidewalk, beyond the sidewalk.

Mr. SMART. Uh-huh.

Mr. GRIFFIN. However, at the street level----

Mr. SMART. This would all be sidewalk?

Mr. GRIFFIN. This would all be sidewalk.

Mr. SMART. I see.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, will you show us on this diagram where you were standing just before Lee Oswald was shot?

Mr. SMART. Well, I would say about here.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you mark it with an “X” if you would?

Mr. SMART. All right. Roughly.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you do something? Would you put your initials beside it or something to indicate that that is you? Okay. Now, did you see Sam Pierce’s car go out of the driveway?

Mr. SMART. No; I didn’t.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Which direction or what were you doing at the time that Pierce’s car would have gone out about a minute ago?

Mr. SMART. I don’t know when his car went out. I heard them talking about it. It was supposed to have gone out this way, wasn’t it?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; now, when you were standing by the armored car, were you looking up to Commerce Street?

Mr. SMART. At the time of the shooting?

Mr. GRIFFIN. No; not at the time of the shooting.

Mr. SMART. Well, I was looking every way that I could, this side of the truck, this side of the truck, trying to see down here from time to time, but I couldn’t see much for the television lights.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, how long----

Mr. SMART. I was mainly interested in the security angle from across the street, so forth. That was my thought.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long had you remained--how long had you been here by the side of this armored truck prior to the time that you heard any shots in the basement?

Mr. SMART. Oh, long enough that, when the truck backed down, Batchelor and I found some bottles in it, anything that might be used as a weapon that was loose in the truck. I don’t know how long that would have been, practically all of the time that I was in the basement.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you standing beside the truck?

Mr. SMART. No; I was up here.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you want to mark up there where the truck was? Why don’t you mark a square where the truck was?

Mr. SMART. This is strictly guesswork because I didn’t measure in feet or anything.

Mr. GRIFFIN. This is all right. Just a rough idea. And you were standing at the place where you were standing beside the truck?

Mr. SMART. I had been in the truck, around the truck, I had taken some bottles over here and set them on a ledge out of the way and I had walked back--of course, this doesn’t represent too many feet--approximately halfway from the truck down to the end of the ramp, and at the time that I heard the shot, I was looking out this way.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. What did you do at the time that you heard the shot?

Mr. SMART. What did I do at the time?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. SMART. I immediately rushed down to where the scuffle was going on.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you at any time go into the jail office?

Mr. SMART. No, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I understand that you talked to “Blackie” Harrison right after the scuffle.

Mr. SMART. Yes, uh-huh, as soon as I got to the scene.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was Ruby still there?

Mr. SMART. Yes; I asked “Blackie” who he was.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you talk with “Blackie” after that that day?

Mr. SMART. Later in the day?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. SMART. I don’t recall it if I did.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Between the time that you talked with Harrison and the time that you were informed that you should go to Ruby’s car and search the car, what did you do?

Mr. SMART. I was told by Chief Stevenson to check all of--to put guards on the elevators and on the doors on the first floor.

(Discussion off of the record.)

Mr. GRIFFIN. And did you do that?

Mr. SMART. I did that, and I went back to my office, resumed my usual routine.

Mr. GRIFFIN. That is on the third floor?

Mr. SMART. Right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did you remain up there on the third floor before you were asked to do something in connection with Ruby’s car?

Mr. SMART. I couldn’t say for sure. It was some time, though, elapsed, quite some time elapsed, and Chief Stevenson would call me on the phone and gave me the license number of his car and told me where it was parked, asked me--told me there was a sum of money in it, to go over and remove it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You got out there, and I take it from your statement that you found that somebody else had already been to the car?

Mr. SMART. No, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You were the first one to the car?

Mr. SMART. I don’t think I said that anyone else had been to it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I will correct the record, because his statement doesn’t reflect it, what I said. All right. When you got to the car, was the car locked or unlocked?

Mr. SMART. The doors were unlocked.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you have a key to the car at that time?

Mr. SMART. No, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Had you been told at that time whether or not there was a key to the car----

Mr. SMART. No, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Or whether you needed one?

Mr. SMART. No, sir; I hadn’t been told. I just assumed that the keys were in the car, but nobody told me that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, when you got there----

Mr. SMART. Being on a parking lot, you know, naturally, I didn’t think.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there a dog in that car?

Mr. SMART. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where was the dog when you got to the car?

Mr. SMART. The dog had crawled under a newspaper in the front seat.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And what did you do with the dog when you got in?

Mr. SMART. We had the squad come by and get it and take it to the animal shelter.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there anybody else that accompanied you out to that automobile?

Mr. SMART. Lieutenant Swain.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And that is all?

Mr. SMART. Well, we called the uniformed squad there a little bit later and had the car put in the pound. It seems to me like there was one more detective. I don’t remember. I believe it was Detective Watson. I am not sure.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What was the first thing you searched?

Mr. SMART. The glove compartment.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And I understand that you found his wallet in the glove compartment?

Mr. SMART. Right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And a key to fit the trunk?

Mr. SMART. Right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you ever find out whether Ruby had a wallet on his person?

Mr. SMART. No, sir; I never did.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever make any inquiry?

Mr. SMART. No, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you talk with Ruby about any of the equipment which you found in the automobile?

Mr. SMART. No, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. About the property which you found in the automobile?

Mr. SMART. No, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Lieutenant Swain?

Mr. SMART. No, sir; not in my presence.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Or that you know of?

Mr. SMART. Not that I know of.

Mr. GRIFFIN. In the normal procedure, who would be the person who would question him about that property?

Mr. SMART. Well, I would think it would be Captain Fritz.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. Did you examine this billfold?

Mr. SMART. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you tell us what you recall being in that billfold?

Mr. SMART. His driver’s license and several cards of identification like you would normally carry in a billfold, but I don’t remember each one, what they were or anything. Different cards with his name on it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Social security card?

Mr. SMART. I believe his social security card was there. I am not sure. There was just stuff--cards and papers.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. Do you think you would be able to identify that wallet and contents?

Mr. SMART. I think so.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember anything else in there besides identification cards in the wallet?

Mr. SMART. No, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there any money in the wallet?

Mr. SMART. No, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, what else did you find in the glove compartment?

Mr. SMART. A key.

Mr. GRIFFIN. A single key?

Mr. SMART. A single key.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was this--where was this?

Mr. SMART. Just laying in the floor of the glove compartment.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was it under some papers or anything like that?

Mr. SMART. No, sir; wasn’t much stuff in the glove compartment.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there anything else in the glove compartment besides the key and the wallet?

Mr. SMART. I remember looking, but I remember there was nothing of importance that would have any bearing on anything. There was something there, not much, though.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was the key on top and exposed?

Mr. SMART. No. The billfold was on top and the key was laying over on the side.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I see.

Mr. SMART. Just a lone key, a General Motors key.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. Did it appear there had been any effort to conceal it?

Mr. SMART. No, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, after you searched the glove compartment, what did you do? What did you search after the glove compartment?

Mr. SMART. Well, I sat down in the front seat to try this key, and I put my hand down on these papers, and that is when I felt the dog. The dog raised up. It didn’t fit the ignition keys, I mean the ignition switch, so I knew it was a General Motors key, and I owned an Oldsmobile, and it looked like it might be a trunk key, and I tried it, and it worked.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, up to this point, you hadn’t searched the interior of the car, nothing but the glove compartment?

Mr. SMART. No, sir; nothing but just look over.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, when you took this key, you were able to open the trunk, weren’t you?

Mr. SMART. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you see when you opened that trunk?

Mr. SMART. Well, some paper bags and some bank sacks, maybe one bank sack, and just full of junk, almost full of junk, except there was a set of keys laying right down in the open.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, was this a set of keys?

Mr. SMART. Well, it was a bunch of keys.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were they on a ring?

Mr. SMART. A ring or something to hold them together; I don’t remember.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How many keys would you say were on this?

Mr. SMART. Oh, roughly four or five.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, were there any keys that looked like they might be keys to a house or door?

Mr. SMART. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And how many keys on there appeared that they would be automobile keys?

Mr. SMART. I don’t remember now. I can tell that the other key, you know, they were shaped a little different, one of them was the ignition key, and I tried it, and it worked.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, if you were to see these keys, do you think that you would recognize them?

Mr. SMART. Yes, sir; I think so.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did you see the keys in the car, in the trunk of the car?

Mr. SMART. Laying right in the floorboard of the trunk.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Near the front?

Mr. SMART. Near the front.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Exposed to view?

Mr. SMART. Right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where were they in relationship to the paper sacks and the money bags?

Mr. SMART. To the right. The paper bags were more in the back. He had two or three boxes of pictures of girls, and things like that, that we just thumbed through, maybe stacks of them that high, a lot of cards to his club. That was mostly what the stuff was in the trunk.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, if these keys were placed where you found them and one had been driving that car, would the motion--were they placed in such a way that the motion of the car or bumps and whatnot would move these about?

Mr. SMART. I would think they would probably have scooted under papers or something, would have been my guess, possibly.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, is there anything that you saw or that you have learned that would indicate to you how long those keys might have been in the back of that trunk prior to the time that you opened it?

Mr. SMART. You want my thought?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; I do.

Mr. SMART. My thought, when I found things like they were, that Jack Ruby had purposely put his billfold in the glove compartment and purposely put his keys in the trunk compartment and locked it up and purposely left his trunk key in the glove compartment so he could get to it. That was my thought. I wondered why he left his billfold with all of his identification in it in his glove compartment.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I would like to have your opinion as a trained investigator, anything else that led you to believe this or why, other than simply the placement that we have just discussed, that would have led you to think that he had done what you mentioned?

Mr. SMART. Because, when he left the car on the lot, there was no attendant there, I guess was the main reason. He parked it in an odd place and up on an incline deal on the lot.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How was it an odd place?

Mr. SMART. Well, the lot is kind of uneven, and it was pretty close out to the center of the lot. It was where an old building had been torn down and left some concrete in one place, you know, like this.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; would you--I am going to interrupt this just one second here while I get this exhibit marked, and I am going to ask you, while I mark this exhibit, would you draw on this piece of paper the intersection there, the intersection of Commerce, Main and Pearl, and then would you draw the parking lot where Ruby’s car was found?

Mr. SMART. These are two parking lots. They are all together but separately operated.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you put the two streets in there so we would know which is Main and which is Pearl? Now, which is Commerce?

Mr. SMART. This is south.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right, now. Let me ask you. Start over again here on another sheet of paper. I want to get more detail on here.

Mr. SMART. Oh, I see.

Mr. GRIFFIN. It would probably he easiest if you would draw the block, Commerce, Harwood, Pearl and Main, and indicate the location of the police department, the Western Union office and the parking lots on the corner of Main and Pearl, and then show us which parking lot Jack’s car was in.

Mr. SMART. I am not a very good artist, now.

Mr. GRIFFIN. That is okay. Is that the parking lot?

Mr. SMART. Uh-huh.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right.

Mr. SMART. Roughly about there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now, we will go on the record. Now, you have drawn a diagram here, which I am going to mark, “Dallas, Texas, Lieutenant Smart, 3-25-64, Exhibit 5023,” and that appears to be a diagram of the intersection of Main and Pearl with the Western Union marked and parking lot designated on the northwest corner of Main and Pearl and an automobile marked out there. Is that pencil mark of an automobile your best estimate of where you found Ruby’s car?

Mr. SMART. That is approximately about where the car was parked.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were there any other cars in the parking lot at that time?

Mr. SMART. At that time, the parking lot had opened officially; there were a few more cars; I don’t recall where they were--and an attendant there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. Were there any other cars parked next to Ruby’s car?

Mr. SMART. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Other than--did you mention the location of these keys and the billfold to anybody?

Mr. SMART. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who did you mention that to?

Mr. SMART. Homicide detectives.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember any particular one?

Mr. SMART. There was two of them. I think it was Montgomery and his partner. I am not sure. There is some new men in there that I don’t know too well. We brought all of that stuff in there, showed Captain Fritz what we had. He said, “Turn it over to them.”

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you write any report in connection with this search to the police department?

Mr. SMART. No, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. So there is no written report in the police department of what you just told me?

Mr. SMART. No, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would it be customary for anybody in the police department to have written a report of what you told them?

Mr. SMART. It could be. I gave all of my information to the homicide boys, because they were handling the case, turned the money over to them, the keys, and turned everything over to them.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you do this favor to me? Inquire of Captain Fritz, inquire and find out, if there is a report of what you told them, and, if so, give us a copy of it so we could have it for our file?

Mr. SMART. Sure.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you also find in the automobile some radio scripts or something that had to do--well, do you recall finding anything that appeared to be radio scripts or political propaganda materials?

Mr. SMART. No, sir; I tell you, Mr. Griffin. I was instructed to go over there and get the money--it seemed like that is what he was worried about, his money--and bring it over and put it in the property room or have it put into the property room, and when I ran into the billfold and the keys, I thought they should be over there, too, and I told the homicide officers they should go back and make a thorough check of the trunk and also that there might be some pertinent information that they wanted, and I understood that they did. What they found, now, I don’t know. I think that the FBI went, too, but I never did go back and search anything else.

Mr. GRIFFIN. So you removed the billfold and the keys and the money?

Mr. SMART. Yes, sir; and a sack of miscellaneous stuff and the papers that were in the front seat pertaining to the assassination. I thought that might have some bearing. He had about four or five current----

Mr. GRIFFIN. Newspapers?

Mr. SMART. With the spreads on the front, newspapers.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did they appear to be complete copies of a newspaper or were articles cut out?

Mr. SMART. Complete copies----

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember----

Mr. SMART. Which they were placed in the property room.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I see; now, did you file an inventory on that?

Mr. SMART. No, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who did you turn that property over to?

Mr. SMART. To these two homicide officers. All I did was count the money and initial it, so I would know myself, Swain and I did, so that we would be protected on the amount of money. I understand that they listed all of the stuff and inventoried it and so on and so forth.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you testify at the Ruby trial?

Mr. SMART. No, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have any personal knowledge that Captain Fritz actually became aware of how you had found this billfold and the location of the keys?

Mr. SMART. Do I know what?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know whether Captain Fritz ever actually became aware of where you had actually found the keys and the billfold?

Mr. SMART. We carried the stuff to his office and Swain told him that we had the money and his billfold and some things taken out of the car.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Uh-huh.

Mr. SMART. I heard him tell Captain Fritz that; yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. So it is possible----

Mr. SMART. So he told these two fellows to take over.

Mr. GRIFFIN. So, if there were no actual written report of this ever made----

Mr. SMART. If there is, I imagine Montgomery--I believe it is Montgomery--I could be mistaken--but it is those two guys. I could find out their names.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Okay, okay; all right; did you talk with Ruby at any time?

Mr. SMART. No, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, when you got back to the homicide office, saw Fritz, had Fritz talked with Ruby by then?

Mr. SMART. I couldn’t tell you.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When you got back to the homicide office, had you been told by anybody how Ruby got into the basement?

Mr. SMART. No, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Or did you hear any rumor about it?

Mr. SMART. Oh, I heard rumors; yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you--when was the first time that you heard that Ruby had told somebody how he got into the basement?

Mr. SMART. I am not sure where I heard it, but I heard it--some of the boys talking, said that they heard that he said that he walked by some officers down the ramp.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember which----

Mr. SMART. They were talking to Sam Pierce.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; and do you remember which of the men you heard----

Mr. SMART. No, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Making this statement? How would they--would you have heard this on the 24th, on the day that Ruby shot Oswald, or was it sometime later?

Mr. SMART. I don’t remember, Mr. Griffin, now.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You remember that there were a number of rumors that began circulating right at the beginning, one that he came down the ramp, one that he pushed a TV camera in, another one was that he used a press pass, another one is that he got out of a police car?

Mr. SMART. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, had you heard, are you able to remember whether you have heard, any or all of these rumors on Sunday when you were there?

Mr. SMART. No, sir; I can’t. I just heard them somewhere around there, heard somebody--they weren’t talking even to me, I don’t think. Just discussing it or something.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me take this off of the record.

(Discussion off of the record.)

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let’s go on the record here. I am also going to mark for identification as Exhibit 5024 a letter that you wrote to Chief Curry on November 27 with respect to what you heard down there in the basement.

Mr. SMART. Uh-huh.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to mark it, “Dallas, Tex., Lieutenant Smart, 3-25-64, Exhibit 5024.” Now, I want you to look at Exhibit 5021 and Exhibit 5024, and will you tell me if you have read those over?

Mr. SMART. Yes, sir; I have read those.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And you have already stated, I believe, as to each one of those that there is nothing that you would add or subtract from that or correct?

Mr. SMART. No, sir. If I knew something that would help you, I would tell you.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you sign each of those in some place where it is conspicuous and date it?

Mr. SMART. Just the front sheet?

Mr. GRIFFIN. That is right, just the place where I have got it marked. Now, would you also look at Exhibit 5022? That is the diagram of the basement. You put some markings on that. Would you sign that? Would you also take this Exhibit 5023, which you prepared? It is a diagram of the intersection of Main and Pearl Expressway. Okay. I am much obliged, lieutenant.

Mr. SMART. Okay, Mr. Griffin. I wish I could help you.

TESTIMONY OF JOHN ALLISON SMITH

The testimony of John Allison Smith was taken at 2 p.m., on April 15, 1964, at the Post Office Building, Fort Worth, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr., assistant counsel of the President’s Commission.

Mr. HUBERT. My name is Leon Hubert. I am a member of the advisory staff of the General Counsel of the President’s Commission.

Under the provisions of President Johnson’s Executive Order 11130, dated November 29, 1963, the Joint Resolution of Congress No. 137, and the rules of procedure adopted by the Commission, in conformance with that Executive order and that joint resolution, I have been authorized to take a sworn deposition from you, Mr. Smith.

I state to you now that the general nature of the Commission’s inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate, and report upon the facts relative to the assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of Lee Harvey Oswald.

In particular, as to you, Mr. Smith, the nature of the inquiry today is to determine what facts you know about the death of Oswald, and any other pertinent facts you may know about the general inquiry, and particularly as to whether or not an individual by the name of Jack Ruby was seen by you on Commerce Street near the Dallas Police Department Building on November 24, 1963.

Now, Mr. Smith, I think that you are appearing here today as a result of a letter addressed to you from Mr. J. Lee Rankin, the General Counsel for the Commission, is that correct?

Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Is it true that that letter was received by you more than 3 days ago from today?

Mr. SMITH. It was received last Friday.

Mr. HUBERT. And today, of course, is Wednesday?

Mr. SMITH. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, do you mind taking the oath? Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. SMITH. I do.

Mr. HUBERT. State your name.

Mr. SMITH. John Allison Smith.

Mr. HUBERT. How old are you, Mr. Smith?

Mr. SMITH. This being 1964, I am 42 at present.

Mr. HUBERT. Where do you reside?

Mr. SMITH. 22 Shadowbrook Lane in Hurst, Tex.

Mr. HUBERT. H-u-r-s-t?

Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. What is your occupation?

Mr. SMITH. I am classified as a TV technician.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you have the same occupation on November 22, 23, and 24, 1963?

Mr. SMITH. Yes, I did.

Mr. HUBERT. How long have you been employed by WBAP-TV?

Mr. SMITH. Since November the 22d, 1945.

Mr. HUBERT. Now were you on duty in your occupation in Dallas on November 23 and November 24, 1963.

Mr. SMITH. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Were you with the remote truck owned and operated by WBAP?

Mr. SMITH. I was.

Mr. HUBERT. Who else was with you in the operations during those days?

Mr. SMITH. Well, there was quite a large crew. The way we are situated, there is a basic crew that stays in the truck. That is “in person,” that has to do with the picture, and one has to do with the sound, and that other person that is connected with the sound is Mr. Walker.

Mr. HUBERT. Ira Walker?

Mr. SMITH. Yes. In this particular case, ordinarily there is no cameraman near the structure because they are usually in the premises, but in this case we had a camera on top of the truck.

Mr. HUBERT. Who was manning that camera on November 24?

Mr. SMITH. That was Mr. Richey.

Mr. HUBERT. That is Warren Richey?

Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Now those two gentlemen came down here with you today and are outside in the anteroom, is that correct?

Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. What was your duty during those days?

Mr. SMITH. Well, call it “riding gain on the video.” What it amounts to is, to adjust the picture information, using an oscilloscope and that sort of thing.

Mr. HUBERT. Does that require that you be inside of the truck?

Mr. SMITH. Generally. You make short trips outside the truck. The one case that has to do with this particular thing, the man that is responsible for the video has to deal with the telephone company as to the class of picture that you are sending out and so on. It was during one of these particular trips away from the truck to contact the telephone company that I first saw this person that I believe to be the same man as Jack Ruby.

Mr. HUBERT. Tell us what time that was?

Mr. SMITH. Now here the times are going to have to be fairly accurate. As far as minutes and seconds, we don’t watch things that closely, but the first time I saw this person has to be somewhere in the neighborhood of 8:15 a.m.

Mr. HUBERT. Now there must be some reason why you fix that time?

Mr. SMITH. We went to work at 7, and it takes approximately an hour to turn everything on and get it all warmed up to proper operation. Then we go through this thing of what we call “lineup procedure,” on all the cameras, which we had done. So for that reason, I placed this time at approximately an hour after 7 a.m.

Mr. HUBERT. But when all that procedure is done, did you leave the truck?

Mr. SMITH. Not yet.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, go ahead.

Mr. SMITH. We had adjusted all these pictures, and in this particular instance, there were only two. We called the telephone company and they looked at our signal, and if they have any complaints or questions about the quality of the picture, they would tell you what it was. There was a complaint about the picture that I didn’t agree with, so we generally get together and one of us looks at the other picture and talk it over and see what the thing amounts to. So I had gone around to the telephone company. It is a mobile home little trailer set up where they put the microwave equipment. Now this was on the west side of the city hall building there.

Mr. HUBERT. What street was it on?

Mr. SMITH. Well, what street?

Mr. HUBERT. Your truck was on Commerce Street, wasn’t it?

Mr. SMITH. Yes. We were facing east.

Mr. HUBERT. That is a one-way street going east, and you were facing east? You were on the left-hand side of that street?

Mr. SMITH. Yes. And this trailer was around on the west side of this building in the middle of the block.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, it was on the street which the back of your trucked faced?

Mr. SMITH. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. To go from your truck to that little vehicle you are talking about, you would have to turn left off of your truck, walk down to the corner and then turn right toward Main Street?

Mr. SMITH. That is true.

Mr. HUBERT. Now let me suggest to you that that street is called Harwood Street, and if you will keep that in mind, we can refer to it as Harwood Street. I think it will make it simpler from now on. How far on Harwood Street from the corner of Commerce was that little vehicle of the telephone company parked?

Mr. SMITH. I would estimate it would be almost exactly halfway up the block.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember seeing an entrance to the building around there?

Mr. SMITH. It is right in front of the main entrance, the west side.

Mr. HUBERT. The telephone company truck was right in front of the main entrance?

Mr. SMITH. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Was it on the same side of the street as the main entrance or the opposite side?

Mr. SMITH. Same side.

Mr. HUBERT. So you walked up to that truck?

Mr. SMITH. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And you figure that because of all you have told us, that considering the hour that it would have taken to warm up, considering that you came and started off at approximately 7 and then you got the complaints and you walked over, it must have been in the neighborhood of 8:15?

Mr. SMITH. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you see this man that we are talking about, or will in a moment, on the way to the telephone vehicle, or on the way back?

Mr. SMITH. It was on the way back.

Mr. HUBERT. How long did you stay at the telephone truck then?

Mr. SMITH. It was several minutes. We had to hook up a scope and he made some adjustments there. I think I would say I was at the truck at least 10 minutes.

Mr. HUBERT. Then you walked back?

Mr. SMITH. These are guesses.

Mr. HUBERT. You walked back to your truck?

Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. When did you first see this individual?

Mr. SMITH. When I got around the corner and almost back to our truck, this person was standing there on the sidewalk almost parallel with our truck. That is in the vicinity of the door of the city hall.

Mr. HUBERT. The door of the city hall, or of the police department building?

Mr. SMITH. Building. I refer to it as the city hall. What is the name of that officially?

Mr. HUBERT. There are two. Actually one is the city hall or the police department opening which is on the Harwood Street side of the automobile exit. The building on the other side of the Commerce Street exit from where your truck was is the municipal building.

Mr. SMITH. It wasn’t the municipal building. We didn’t go there until later.

Mr. HUBERT. So he was standing about at the staircase entrance to the Dallas Police Department Building on the sidewalk between the building and your truck, right?

Mr. SMITH. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. How close did you get to him?

Mr. SMITH. Probably 30 feet.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, where was he standing, or what was he doing, rather?

Mr. SMITH. He was standing there looking up at the windows where we had some cables running through. You see, we had camera gear up on this floor where all the interrogation was taking place and all, and this person was just standing there looking at the cables and inquisitive, maybe.

Mr. HUBERT. Was there a crowd of people around there?

Mr. SMITH. No, sir; not at this time of day.

Mr. HUBERT. How was he dressed, do you know?

Mr. SMITH. Now here this probably conflicts with anything you heard, but I am talking about a particular person, and one that I saw had on a light grey topcoat and a light grey hat, shabby appearance, not neat, you know.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you notice whether he had a tie on?

Mr. SMITH. No, sir. I was looking at him from a quarter.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you get a full view of him?

Mr. SMITH. No, sir; not at this time. It is the type of person that we see often when we go out on an early morning remote. It is the person that is walking the street with no place to go. That is what he impressed me as being. And it kind of fit in that he was just standing looking up at these cables and doing nothing more than that.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you observe him do anything else?

Mr. SMITH. Not at that time.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you hear him say anything?

Mr. SMITH. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you see that same person later?

Mr. SMITH. Yes. Now here this is probably a more inaccurate guess than the other as to time, but it was later in the morning. At least an hour or maybe an hour and a half later than that. We were at a break and I was sitting in the back of the truck, and to the best of my knowledge, Walker was in there, but it was during the time when you are not rehearsing and you are not on a standby condition. You are relaxed and you are not familiar with this old truck, but I will try to picture to you that it is an enclosed thing. It is kept rather dark for the picture’s sake, and it gets warm in there. And sometime I will open these curtains or turn on the fan and get a little ventilation. This happens even in the wintertime. And I lowered the curtain on my side and there stood this same man there.

Mr. HUBERT. There can be no doubt in your mind that that was the same man you had seen earlier?

Mr. SMITH. That’s right. Now this is the same particular person that I am talking about. They are one and the same. Same coat and same hat and same everything. And when I opened the curtain, this man is no less than 2 feet from the truck here, and he is standing there very nonchalantly, you know, and he says, “Have they brought Oswald down yet?”

Mr. HUBERT. Was there a glass window between you and this man?

Mr. SMITH. It wasn’t pulled to. It was open.

Mr. HUBERT. It was open?

Mr. SMITH. It is a sliding, double-sliding window.

Mr. HUBERT. Then you had a full-face view of him?

Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. And that you were not in excess of 3 feet from him?

Mr. SMITH. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. Your face and his face were not separated by more than 3 feet at that point?

Mr. SMITH. That is true.

Mr. HUBERT. You heard him say, “Have they brought down Oswald yet?”

Mr. SMITH. “Have they brought Oswald down?” Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Did anyone answer him?

Mr. SMITH. I did. I don’t know how to explain it. You see, my first reaction was one of a joke, you know. Here we were all sitting around here for days waiting for this news story to develop, and a man asks you have they brought Oswald down yet, and to me I am thinking if they had brought him down and taken him to the county building, why would we be here? And I started my answer like, “What do you think?” And then he repeated his question again, “Have they brought him down?” And he didn’t call his name the second time, like it was understood.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, he really asked twice? The first time he used Oswald’s name and the second time he referred to him by the use of the pronoun “him,” and the second time you told him, “No”?

Mr. SMITH. I said, “No, sir; they haven’t brought him down, or we wouldn’t still be sitting here.” And he just turned and walked away.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you see him there after that day?

Mr. SMITH. Now I think I did, and I am not sure. But this is the same man. The third time was in a crowd, and I could tell you pretty well what time this was, because KRLD put a camera in front of our truck at approximately 10 a.m. That is another guess. But they had time to turn that camera on and get it warm before all the news broke, so it had to be somewhere in the neighborhood of 10 or maybe before. But after that camera was set up, KRLD had a couple of engineers out there lining up the camera.

Mr. HUBERT. That was on Commerce Street with the camera facing down into the Commerce Street ramp of the building, I take it?

Mr. SMITH. They had this thing facing--you see, our truck wasn’t up to the ramp. There was room for a car almost between our truck and the ramp. Now they had this camera in that space right directly in front of our truck there, and they had a man standing on the sidewalk lining up their camera.

And this TV camera, it always draws a crowd, and at this time there was quite a few people just standing around. But this man that I am talking about, I am almost certain, was standing on the other side of the ramp.

Mr. HUBERT. Of the Commerce Street ramp?

Mr. SMITH. Yes; on the sidewalk, in a group of people, just standing there watching the proceedings.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall the time at which the police moved all of the people from the police department side of Commerce Street over to the other side?

Mr. SMITH. No; I don’t. Someone asked me that before. I don’t remember that taking place. You see, I was never told anything about the move. I was inside the truck, so I didn’t have any connection with that.

Mr. HUBERT. Now when you saw this man, or think you did, possibly did, the third time, had you come out of your truck?

Mr. SMITH. Yes; I had been down in the basement. We were running some microphone cords, you see. I know this adds up to an awful long story how we move around so much, and it doesn’t make sense to you, I am sure, but sometime during the morning Chief of Police Curry had told us that we would not be allowed to go through the double doors that separate the underground parking area from the underground office area. It is a double door there adjacent to the elevator opening, and he had told us that we would not be allowed beyond that door for any reason, but that he would give us a good place to put a camera and a microphone if we wouldn’t interfere with his passageway from there on out to the parking lot.

So we had gotten permission to set this camera up right next to that door, and we were the first camera in line there, and we were going to run two microphones in there. That was the plan at that time, in case they should allow an interview. We had hoped that they might, which later didn’t work, but in the running of this microphone, this microphone went through the downstairs door into the office area. They didn’t go down the ramp or anywhere near the parking area, but in running the microphones and in helping the Walker crew check out the mikes and all coming back to the truck is when I had seen this man standing over there to the left.

Mr. HUBERT. It was to your left as you came out of the Commerce Street ramp?

Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. How close did you get to him then?

Mr. SMITH. It was even further than before. It was all the way; well, the length of our truck is 20 some odd feet, and it was a couple of car lengths more; so I was 40 or 50 feet.

Mr. HUBERT. You mean he was a couple of car lengths beyond the entrance, the Commerce Street exit, rather?

Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Perhaps I misunderstood you. Did you see him immediately as you came out of the Commerce Street ramp exit, or when you got back to the truck?

Mr. SMITH. Now I didn’t come up the ramp. I came up the steps.

Mr. HUBERT. Oh, I see. When you came up the steps, you went to the back of the truck?

Mr. SMITH. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. So the distance between you and him was the length of the truck plus the distance between the front of your truck to the ramp, plus the width of the ramp and some distance beyond that?

Mr. SMITH. That’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. Making a total of, you think, roughly 40 feet or so?

Mr. SMITH. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And there he was not alone, but with other people, you thought?

Mr. SMITH. Standing in a crowd.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you see that individual any more?

Mr. SMITH. No, sir. Now you see it is hard for me to say that I could identify that man if he were to walk in this room right now, because, as far as I am concerned, I have only seen that face live one time. That is when he came to the window. And seeing somebody in films and all, that is kind of hard to associate.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, now, did you know Jack Ruby at all?

Mr. SMITH. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Now you have come, of course, to know the face and the man called Jack Ruby?

Mr. SMITH. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Have you see the face of Jack Ruby in person, live, face to face as it were?

Mr. SMITH. Not since; no.

Mr. HUBERT. Have you associated the face that you have come to know as Jack Ruby from photographs and pictures and so forth, with the man that we have been talking about for the last few minutes?

Mr. SMITH. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Tell us how that came about, and when?

Mr. SMITH. The closest that I ever made the association was when we were shown a mug shot, and when I saw that mug shot, it was a straight-on photograph, and it struck me as being the same face as the one in the window.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you have any spontaneous reaction in that regard?

Mr. SMITH. Well, I was convinced to myself that that was the same man.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you make any observations to anyone to that effect?

Mr. SMITH. No, but Walker did to me.

Mr. HUBERT. At that moment?

Mr. SMITH. A couple of seconds later; yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Was he looking at the mug shot, too?

Mr. SMITH. We were looking at the mug shot on a monitor in the truck. You see, they took the mug shot out of the file upstairs in the City of Dallas Police Department, brought the mug shots out into the corridor and told the TV people they could take stills of it for their own use, and then they would take the mug shot right back to the file, that no one could have it to copy or anything like that.

Mr. HUBERT. So, in other words, you simply had the people on the third floor put your camera unit on the mug shot?

Mr. SMITH. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. And then it came through to your monitor?

Mr. SMITH. That’s correct.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you at that moment associate the face that you saw on the mug shots in the monitor with the man that you had seen earlier and which you have described to us?

Mr. SMITH. I did.

Mr. HUBERT. Was there any suggestion to you by Walker, or did you reach that opinion before he said anything?

Mr. SMITH. I had noticed a distinct similarity. Now there is a difference in that, when I saw him, he had on a hat, and that was the only reason that I would not say positively that that is the same man. But there is the only reservation that I have. But I had noticed on my own that there was a tremendous similarity right through here [indicating].

Mr. HUBERT. When the witness said “through here,” he was placing one hand at the level of his forehead and the other hand under his chin.

Mr. SMITH. And a few minutes later, after this, Walker commented to me that the person on that mug shot looked to him like the same one that had been up to the truck a couple of times.

Mr. HUBERT. Had he told you prior to that that he had noticed this man come to the truck a couple of times?

Mr. SMITH. Not prior to that.

Mr. HUBERT. So that your observation of this man coming up to the truck a couple of times was independent of that of Walker, and it had not been communicated between you?