Chapter IX: Part 9

Mr. BEERS. The entrance to the jail office; yes. There were actually a few at the corner there, and strung out across there, and I didn’t particularly look over in that area because I was concentrating most of my attention towards the jail office door, because we didn’t know exactly what time they would be coming out, and we didn’t know what, if any, advance warning we would have, so I didn’t dare look around too much. I had already seen everybody I wanted to see, I think.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever have occasion to look up the Main Street ramp?

Mr. BEERS. I did look up there earlier.

Mr. GRIFFIN. From where you were in the basement, was it possible to see anybody up at the top of the Main Street ramp?

Mr. BEERS. There was a policeman standing up at the top of the ramp up there. Looked like he was out on the sidewalk.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was the visibility such that his features were distinguishable?

Mr. BEERS. No; it was a silhouette.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you tell us what kind of advance warning you had that Oswald was coming down?

Mr. BEERS. I believe there were some of the news media in this hallway which I pointed out, that goes from the elevator to the Harwood Street side of the city hall, and the hallway goes past the jail office and goes into the police parking area.

I believe there were some members of the news media in the hall in front of the window of the jail office, and someone, I think, shouted, “Oh, here he comes.”

Then there was just a lot of noise and the door opened and he came in.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You indicated in your interview with the Federal Bureau of Investigation that you felt sure that if you had seen Ruby in the basement you would have recognized him?

Mr. BEERS. Yes, sir; I know his face that well; yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I take it from that, that the lighting conditions were such and the people were spread out thinly enough so that you were in a position from where you were to have seen the man?

Mr. BEERS. Television camera had a bank or two banks, I don’t remember which, of light, and the lighting was adequate in there.

However, there was a considerable number of people and quite an amount of confusion.

It is possible he could have been in there and I had not seen him, but had I seen him, there was enough light for me to have recognized him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you taking any pictures before it became apparent Oswald was being brought down?

Mr. BEERS. I think I made up earlier, looked up towards the Commerce Street entrance that showed either one or two policemen in silhouette at the top of that ramp there.

I believe I made one negative, and I believe that it was one or two policemen up there. There was at least an officer there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now you indicated earlier that you had first met Jack Ruby 18 months before in connection with some freelance work that you were doing. Can you tell us what that was?

Mr. BEERS. Mr. Bayse, Dale Bayse was doing a story, speculating as to being able to sell this story, and needed some photographers to illustrate it.

His information to me was that Mr. Ruby had a stripper school, and that he would like to have some pictures of these, of this school, and these people involved in the school, the supposed instructors and the supposed students, to illustrate this article with.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Mr. Bayse ever sell the story?

Mr. BEERS. I believe that story he showed me a copy of Adam Magazine. I believe that was probably December 1962.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How much time did you spend at Jack Ruby’s place of business taking photographs?

Mr. BEERS. That particular day, which was the only time I was there in his place, I spent from approximately 11 o’clock until must have been around 7. It was dark when I went outside.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you visit only the Carousel Club? Or also the Vegas Club?

Mr. BEERS. Just the Carousel Club; yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you still have any of the photographs?

Mr. BEERS. Yes, sir; I do. I supplied the FBI with one or two sets of those photographs, and I do have some still available.

I would like to inject here that I was introduced to Mr. Ruby on this particular day, which was my first meeting with him, and--but throughout the day I had little or no conversation with him.

He was negotiating with Mr. Bayse.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was he actually running the school for strippers or was this a promotion idea?

Mr. BEERS. Mr. Griffin, this is an opinion. I don’t think Mr. Ruby actually ran a stripper school.

As I worked throughout the day, it seemed fairly apparent to me that there was no school in operation there, I don’t think. That is strictly an opinion.

Mr. Ruby did run an amateur night, and from what information I think I absorbed there, it appeared that these girls must have, part of them practiced in some of his amateur and semiregularly at his place, and it didn’t appear to be a school.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was he running an amateur night at the time you were taking these photographs?

Mr. BEERS. I was not familiar with the club prior to that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But at the time you took these photographs, did you have the understanding that he had run an amateur night?

Mr. BEERS. I got that impression; yes, sir, that he had some amateur nights there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. During the period of November 22, 23, and 24, were you aware of newspaper people who were operating in the Dallas area on the freelance basis?

Mr. BEERS. You say was I aware that there were some operating on a freelance basis?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; were you aware of any such people?

Mr. BEERS. Not particularly.

I ran into one photographer who was a local man, who I understand was freelancing and had received an assignment from Paris Match, a French magazine, and to the best of my knowledge, I don’t recall--I am sure there were some here, but I don’t recall meeting any that I absolutely knew were on a freelance basis.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What I am interested in finding out is if there is any practice that a freelance person follows in hooking up with a network, or somebody who can pay him, whether he makes a commitment in advance to work, or whether he is just down there for shooting pictures or trying to gather information and selling it as he gets it?

Are you familiar enough with what the practice generally is for freelance people in a situation, developing news situations such as we had in this period, to be able to state how a freelance photographer or newspapermen would operate?

Mr. BEERS. In instances such as occurred there, as the assassination of the President, there are some photographers in Dallas who operate on a freelance basis, and also some of them, the same people possibly operate on a stringer basis. This is someone who is known in the area by a news agency or a particular magazine or newspaper, and if something occurred in that area, the people by whom he is known, could possibly contact him and tell him to cover this story, either by himself, or until some of their people could arrive on the scene.

I am sure there were some such people operating there. I don’t know just exactly who it might be.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I will ask you one final question. Has anything come to your attention having to do with either Jack Ruby or with the assassination of President Kennedy, or anything else that you might think would be of importance to the Commission that you think you should make available to us?

I do want to encourage you in this respect because I don’t know that I have covered everything that you might have.

Mr. BEERS. I have tried to insert what I thought, what little information or comments I might have to make. I can’t recall that I have learned anything additional since this happened that is not common knowledge to everyone.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I see.

Now, let me also ask you, for the record, whether prior to commencing this deposition you have talked with anybody from the Commission?

I am not talking about the FBI agents, but any staff member of the Commission other than myself?

Mr. BEERS. No; I have had no contact with anyone from the Warren Commission except over the telephone when I was notified and they verified my address so they could mail me a notice to appear here.

I might go back and add, as far as my acquaintance with Jack Ruby is concerned, I met him that particular day, and I have seen him in the halls of the Dallas News in that 18-month period four times probably.

And I think Jack recalled that my first name was Jack, but not until I testified in his change of venue hearing.

I think that he aware that I was Jack Beers.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you a prosecution witness or defense witness?

Mr. BEERS. Defense.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I take it that you were called to testify as to the climate in Dallas, whether Jack could get a fair trial in Dallas or not?

Mr. BEERS. More or less; yes, sir.

It was concerned with the change of venue hearing in Judge Brown’s court there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I might add also that I did not interview you prior to taking this deposition?

Mr. BEERS. No, sir.

I have never met you before in my life.

Mr. GRIFFIN. If there is anything else that you think we haven’t covered here that comes to your mind after this deposition is concluded, we would appreciate it if you would let us know. And if it is something of importance, we might want to talk to you again.

But I certainly want to thank you for coming here and taking your time. I realize you people are all busy, and it is an imposition to take you away from your work, and we certainly are very grateful that you are willing to take out this time and appear before us and give us this information.

Mr. BEERS. Thank you, Mr. Griffin, you are very welcome.

Mr. GRIFFIN. It is a pleasure to have met you.

Mr. BEERS. I wish I could help you a lot more.

Mr. GRIFFIN. This is rather a methodical process we have to go through talking to people, but you are all finished.

Mr. BEERS. Thank you very much.

TESTIMONY OF ROBERT LEONARD HANKAL

The testimony of Robert Leonard Hankal was taken at 10:25 a.m., on April 17, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr., assistant counsel of the President’s Commission.

Mr. HUBERT. This is the deposition of Robert Leonard Hankal.

Mr. Hankal, my name is Leon Hubert. I’m a member of the advisory staff of the general counsel of the President’s Commission created under the provisions of Executive Order 11130, dated November 29, 1963, and the Joint Resolution of Congress No. 137, and rules of procedure adopted by the Commission in conformance with the Executive order and the joint resolution and I have been authorized to take a sworn deposition from you.

I state to you now Mr. Hankal that the general nature of the Commission’s inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate and report upon facts relating to the assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of Lee Harvey Oswald.

In particular as to you, Mr. Hankal, the nature of the inquiry today is to determine what facts you know about the death of Oswald and any other pertinent facts you may know about the general inquiry.

Mr. HANKAL. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Mr. Hankal, you are appearing here today as a result of a letter received by you, signed by Mr. J. Lee Rankin, the general counsel for the President’s Commission; is that correct?

Mr. HANKAL. That is correct.

Mr. HUBERT. Is it correct that you received that letter more than 3 days from this date?

Mr. HANKAL. That’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. Will you stand and raise your right hand and be sworn? Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. HANKAL. I do.

Mr. HUBERT. Will you state your name?

Mr. HANKAL. Robert Leonard Hankal.

Mr. HUBERT. Your age?

Mr. HANKAL. Thirty-two.

Mr. HUBERT. Your residence?

Mr. HANKAL. 3305 McKinney (No. 1).

Mr. HUBERT. And your occupation?

Mr. HANKAL. I am a director of KRLD Television.

Mr. HUBERT. How long have you been so employed?

Mr. HANKAL. I have been at KRLD for around 2 years. I have been a director since January.

Mr. HUBERT. Were you on duty in connection with your occupation at the city hall on November 23, 1963?

Mr. HANKAL. I was.

Mr. HUBERT. And I think you were there also on the 24th of November?

Mr. HANKAL. That’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, I have handed you a report of an interview of you by special agents of the FBI Quigley and Dallman, dated December 3, 1963, which I have marked in the right hand margin--endorsed as follows: “Dallas, Tex., April 17, 1964, Exhibit 5337, Deposition of R. L. Hankal.” I have signed my name below that and on the second and third pages I have placed my initials in the lower right-hand corner.

Mr. Hankal have you had an opportunity to read this Exhibit 5337?

Mr. HANKAL. I have.

Mr. HUBERT. That would be just a moment ago; is that correct?

Mr. HANKAL. That’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you think that this Exhibit 5337 is a fair and correct record of the interview had between you and the FBI agents?

Mr. HANKAL. It is with one exception, if I can make a note of that?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Mr. HANKAL. I did see Jack Ruby shoot him--I didn’t know what was happening.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, what sentence are you talking about?

Mr. HANKAL. This one--“The first reaction was that Oswald had grabbed a police officer’s gun. He also recalls seeing a man’s back directly in front of him obstructing his view of Oswald, and seemed to recall that immediately preceding that he had observed a blur of movement out of the corner of his eye,”--we didn’t go into it at the time--they were interested in my activity more than anything else, when this interview was held.

Mr. HUBERT. Let me go into this and get it identified here in the record--you are speaking of this sentence--this is the sentence in the second paragraph on page 2 and the sentence reads as follows: “The first reaction was that Oswald had grabbed the police officer’s gun. He also recalled seeing a man’s back directly in front of him obstructing his view of Oswald, and seemed to recall that immediately preceding that he had observed a blur of movement out of the corner of his eye.”

Mr. HANKAL. This is all correct, but it should be added also--I did see--I know that man I later found out was Jack Ruby shoot Oswald.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, you saw more than a blur--that’s what you have in mind?

Mr. HANKAL. Yes; I saw----

Mr. HUBERT. You saw a blur first?

Mr. HANKAL. And then the action.

Mr. HUBERT. And then your attention was directed to the action by the blur?

Mr. HANKAL. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. So, actually, you saw a man coming?

Mr. HANKAL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Where was he coming from?

Mr. HANKAL. To my right.

Mr. HUBERT. How far away was he?

Mr. HANKAL. I believe since I made that statement it has been paced off and set at about 9 feet.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, in order that we may have a graphic record of the matter, I am showing you a chart of the basement area, and you are now sitting before the FBI mockup of substantially the same area except that it doesn’t cover all the parking area.

I have marked that chart as follows: “Dallas, Tex., April 17, 1964, Exhibit 5338, Deposition of R. L. Hankal,” and I have signed my name on it.

Now, before we go into positions to be marked on that map, may I ask you how long you had been in the basement area prior to the shooting?

Mr. HANKAL. Somewhere around 2 or 3 hours and the night before.

Mr. HUBERT. Had you ever seen Ruby around at any time?

Mr. HANKAL. Not that I recall.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you know him?

Mr. HANKAL. No; I didn’t.

Mr. HUBERT. And when you testified a moment ago that you saw the man Ruby shoot Oswald, is it correct to state that you did not at that time know that the man doing the shooting was Jack Ruby?

Mr. HANKAL. That’s correct.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, now, you did assume a position in the basement for some time prior to the actual shooting and it was a rather static position, wasn’t it?

Mr. HANKAL. The evening before we were positioned directly across from the jail office door. The next day when we came to work, we moved our camera across the ramp down into the parking area.

Mr. HUBERT. Back of the rail?

Mr. HANKAL. Back of the rail--we were shooting between the rails.

Mr. HUBERT. Where were you, in fact, standing at the moment of the shooting? I ask you to place the spot first on the mockup and I give you the chart to mark a point at which you were standing after you fixed the point on the mockup.

Mr. HANKAL. My camera was here just to the left of this center pole and shooting between the rails--we have a long vertical zoom lens and it stuck out between the rails--I was standing outside of the rail of the ramp to the left of the lens.

Mr. HUBERT. Would you mark on this chart where you were standing?

Mr. HANKAL. I was standing here [indicating and marking on the chart referred to].

Mr. HUBERT. Now, you have marked a place “X”. Now, put it in a circle, and I am drawing a line and writing the following “position of Hankal at time of shooting” is that correct?

Mr. HANKAL. That’s correct.

Mr. HUBERT. The camera was to your rear and left, is that right?

Mr. HANKAL. To my right.

Mr. HUBERT. To your right or to your left?

Mr. HANKAL. To my right.

Mr. HUBERT. So that the camera would have been approximately like this?

Mr. HANKAL. That’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. I am drawing a square in which I am marking an “A” and I am drawing a line out and writing “position of live camera”--it was a live camera?

Mr. HANKAL. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. What is the station?

Mr. HANKAL. KRLD.

Mr. HUBERT. “KRLD”.

It was there at all pertinent times--right?

Mr. HANKAL. We moved and shot up here after the shots were fired.

Mr. HUBERT. But before the shots were fired, that’s where you were?

Mr. HANKAL. That’s right--before the shots were fired that’s where we were.

Mr. HUBERT. Then, at all pertinent times prior to the shooting you were there?

Mr. HANKAL. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. The camera itself was back of the rail into the parking area--you were in front of the rail on the ramp?

Mr. HANKAL. On the ramp in front of the rail--right.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know Jim Turner?

Mr. HANKAL. No; I don’t.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know George Phenix?

Mr. HANKAL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Was he there too?

Mr. HANKAL. Oh, yes.

Mr. HUBERT. What was the relative position between you and George?

Mr. HANKAL. George was to my right, I believe, he was still here.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, I am marking a position which you have designated on the mockup as being approximately where I am putting the letter “P” for Phenix, is that about right?

Mr. HANKAL. That’s as I last saw him before the shooting.

Mr. HUBERT. And I am drawing a line and writing “Phenix position according to Hankal,” is that right?

Mr. HANKAL. Correct.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know a man by the name of Huffaker?

Mr. HANKAL. I do.

Mr. HUBERT. Who is he?

Mr. HANKAL. He is a newsman at KRLD.

Mr. HUBERT. Where was he standing?

Mr. HANKAL. Well, the last time I saw Bob before the shooting, he was just outside and to the left of the jail office door.

Mr. HUBERT. How long before the shooting was that?

Mr. HANKAL. Perhaps 5 or 6 minutes before it.

Mr. HUBERT. You didn’t see him at the time of the shooting?

Mr. HANKAL. No; I didn’t. After the shooting he came to our camera for instructions.

Mr. HUBERT. When they brought Oswald down, was any announcement made of it at the moment?

Mr. HANKAL. Not outside of just a cry from a newsman that said, “He’s coming.” That’s the only announcement I ever heard.

Mr. HUBERT. And then immediately thereafter the parties escorting him began to come through?

Mr. HANKAL. Appeared at the door and came through.

Mr. HUBERT. Can you tell us what was the reaction at the time Oswald actually appeared into view of the news people and the police and so forth?

Mr. HANKAL. Well, the physical things that happened was there was a stir--some of the movie cameras lights--they need more lights than the television cameras do, some of their lights came on, strobe lights came on and cameras began to click. It was--at the moment not very noisy as it had been--a little, oh, a hush fell over us.

Mr. HUBERT. Isn’t it a fact that prior to the shooting, immediately prior to the shooting there was a general surge forward?

Mr. HANKAL. Just prior to the shooting?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Mr. HANKAL. Yes--I would say.

Mr. HUBERT. I mean that there was a general movement--a step or two forward by each person--that made a surge?

Mr. HANKAL. A moving forward, leaning forward, of all bodies.

Mr. HUBERT. And it was almost immediately thereafter or contemporaneously with it that Jack Ruby brushed through the crowd, is that correct?

Mr. HANKAL. Within the same action.

Mr. HUBERT. You had not seen him standing there before?

Mr. HANKAL. No; I hadn’t.

Mr. HUBERT. You don’t know how he got in?

Mr. HANKAL. I don’t.

Mr. HUBERT. Were you present at the showup of Oswald which took place on the night of November 22 in the assembly room of the police department when the press and other news media representatives were allowed to see Oswald?

Mr. HANKAL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you see Jack Ruby in that crowd?

Mr. HANKAL. No; I didn’t.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you hear anyone say anything from the rear to Oswald?

Mr. HANKAL. Well, what do you mean?

Mr. HUBERT. Well, specifically----

Mr. HANKAL. There were a lot of questions, a lot of people were asking him questions; yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Were there any answers?

Mr. HANKAL. Yes; he answered some of them--yes--one of them was “I haven’t killed anyone,” was one of his answers, and I didn’t hear that question. I believe the question was, “Did you shoot the President?” But if you are asking me if I heard Jack Ruby say anything to Oswald, I did not.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you see anyone standing on a table toward the rear of the room?

Mr. HANKAL. I did not--well, there were people standing on tables in the back of the room; yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you observe them?

Mr. HANKAL. I did see that there were people on tables, but excuse me--I am anticipating your question.

Mr. HUBERT. Can you tell me whether you can say definitely one way or the other that among those people standing on tables was Jack Ruby?

Mr. HANKAL. No; I can’t tell you that I saw him to recognize him. I’m sure I saw him if he was up there, but wherever he was I must have seen him.

Mr. HUBERT. But your point, as I understand it, is that you did see some people standing?

Mr. HANKAL. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. On tables?

Mr. HANKAL. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Whether any of those people was Jack Ruby you cannot say one way or the other?

Mr. HANKAL. That’s right, I didn’t know the man.

Mr. HUBERT. And after you got to know him, your recollection doesn’t place him at all?

Mr. HANKAL. It does not.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, have you been interviewed by any other member of the President’s Commission prior to this?

Mr. HANKAL. No; I have not.

Mr. HUBERT. I believe that’s all. Thank you very much.

Mr. HANKAL. Thank you.

TESTIMONY OF ROBERT S. HUFFAKER, JR.

The testimony of Robert S. Huffaker, Jr., was taken at 4:25 p.m., on April 16, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr., assistant counsel of the President’s Commission.

Mr. HUBERT. Mr. Huffaker, my name is Leon Hubert. I’m a member of the advisory staff of the general counsel of the President’s Commission. Under the provisions of Executive Order 11130, dated November 29, 1963, and the Joint Resolution of Congress No. 137 and rules of procedure adopted by the Commission in conformance with that Executive order and joint resolution, I have been authorized to take a sworn statement from you.

I state to you now that the general nature of the Commission’s inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate and report upon facts relating to the assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of Lee Harvey Oswald.

In particular as to you, Mr. Huffaker, the nature of the inquiry today is to determine what facts you know about the death of Oswald and any other pertinent facts you may know about the general inquiry, and about the activities of one Jack Ruby.

Mr. Huffaker, I think you have appeared here today as a result of a written request addressed to you by Mr. J. Lee Rankin, general counsel of the President’s Commission; is that a fact?

Mr. HUFFAKER. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you receive that written notice more than 3 days from today?

Mr. HUFFAKER. Yes; I did.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, will you rise and be sworn?

Do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. HUFFAKER. I do.

Mr. HUBERT. Will you state your name, please?

Mr. HUFFAKER. Robert S. Huffaker, Jr.

Mr. HUBERT. How old are you, sir?

Mr. HUFFAKER. I am 27.

Mr. HUBERT. What is your residence?

Mr. HUFFAKER. My residence is 4700 Eastside Avenue.

Mr. HUBERT. Dallas?

Mr. HUFFAKER. Apartment 121, Dallas, and it has changed since these statements were made.

Mr. HUBERT. What is your occupation, sir?

Mr. HUFFAKER. Radio television newsman.

Mr. HUBERT. How long have you been so occupied?

Mr. HUFFAKER. Well, I have been in radio and television for, excluding a 6 months’ term in the Army, for 7 years.

Mr. HUBERT. How long have you been with KRLD?

Mr. HUFFAKER. I have been with KRLD since May 1963.

Mr. HUBERT. Were you with another television or radio station prior to that time?

Mr. HUFFAKER. Yes; I was with KBTX-TV in Bryan.

Mr. HUBERT. Bryan, Tex.?

Mr. HUFFAKER. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And how long were you with them?

Mr. HUFFAKER. I was with them for about 2½ years.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, on November 24, 1963, were you on duty with your employer?

Mr. HUFFAKER. Yes, sir; I was.

Mr. HUBERT. Were you in the Dallas police basement?

Mr. HUFFAKER. Yes; I was.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, Mr. Huffaker, I have shown you two documents, the first being a report of an interview with you on November 28, 1963, by FBI Agents Hardin and Rawlings [spelling] R-a-w-l-i-n-g-s, which I have marked for identification as “Dallas, Tex., April 16, 1964, Exhibit 5331, Deposition of R. S. Huffaker,” and I have signed my name on it.

Mr. HUFFAKER. Be sure that that’s “Jr.” because I’ve got a father with the same name.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, I shall add that, and I have signed my name, and since the document contains two pages, I have placed my initials on the right-hand bottom of the second page.

The other document is also a report of an interview of you by FBI Agents Pinkston [spelling] P-i-n-k-s-t-o-n, and Brown, on November 30, 1963, upon which I have endorsed the following, “Dallas, Tex., April 16, 1964, Exhibit 5332, deposition of R. S. Huffaker, Jr.”

I have signed my name below that and on the second page I have placed my initials in the lower right-hand corner.

I now ask you if you have had an opportunity to read both of those exhibits, numbers 5331 and 5332?

Mr. HUFFAKER. Yes, sir; I have.

Mr. HUBERT. Can you tell us whether those two exhibits are correct reports of the interviews had with you by the FBI agents mentioned?

Mr. HUFFAKER. With a few very, very minor exceptions.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, will you take first the exhibit which has been identified as No. 5331 and state what corrections you wish to be made to that statement?

Mr. HUFFAKER. First of all, in the second line as it first appears and in its subsequent appearances the call letters of my station are incorrect. It should be--rather than KLRD--it should be KRLD.

Mr. HUBERT. And that’s true throughout the document, if it appears as KLRD it should be KRLD?

Mr. HUFFAKER. Right--that’s correct.

Mr. HUBERT. Have you any other changes or corrections to make?

Mr. HUFFAKER. Well, just to be exactly specific, the last sentence in the second paragraph.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, that sentence reads as follows: “He even noted they were checking police automobiles parked in the area.” Now, addressing yourself to that sentence, what comment do you wish to make?

Mr. HUFFAKER. Well, it should be--it should have referred to the fact that I did note Sergeant Putnam check a police van which was driven down into the basement.

Mr. HUBERT. And that’s the only vehicle that you saw them check?

Mr. HUFFAKER. That’s the only one that I saw them check.

Mr. HUBERT. So, that you think that the quoted sentence is too broad in that it intimates you saw them checking several automobiles, whereas, in fact, you had reference there to only one, as you have identified it a moment ago?

Mr. HUFFAKER. That’s correct, and to expand a little bit further toward this--I did note that they were checking all over the basement, and I’m sure that they were checking the vehicles down there, but I did not specifically note them doing so.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, perhaps it would be helpful to you if you would explain what you saw which prompts you now to say that they were checking all over the basement, what then were they doing, in fact?

Mr. HUFFAKER. Well, I saw Sergeant Putnam and Sergeant Dean and--oh, a fairly good sized number of uniformed officers who were walking around the basement area from one end to another and they were searching the basement.

Mr. HUBERT. How were they searching, what were they actually doing?

Mr. HUFFAKER. Well, they were just looking--I cannot say definitely that they were looking in cars, because I really didn’t pay that close attention, but they were looking in various portions of the basement and I was well aware that they were searching the basement.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, the impression of their activities you gained was that it was a search party?

Mr. HUFFAKER. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, have you any other comments to make about Exhibit No. 5331?

Mr. HUFFAKER. Let me say just off the record--this sentence here is incorrect [indicating].

Mr. HUBERT. Well, let’s stay on the record and let me read the sentence.

“His eyes were focused on Oswald as he approached the automobile which was to transport him to the county jail and when the shot rang out, he looked toward Oswald as the latter fell to the floor.”

What comment have you to make as to that quoted sentence?

Mr. HUFFAKER. My eyes were focused on the automobile which was to transport Oswald to the county jail as it was being backed into position. I had looked at Oswald when he first emerged from the door, but when the car began to back up, then I looked at it.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, when the car began to back up and you looked at it, in what direction did it cause you to look, to your left or to your right?

Mr. HUFFAKER. When I looked at the car?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Mr. HUFFAKER. To my left.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, any other comments?

Mr. HUFFAKER. The remainder of the sentence is correct, because when the shot rang out, then I did look towards Oswald.

Mr. HUBERT. Are there any other corrections to be made as to Exhibit No. 5331?

Mr. HUFFAKER. No, sir; to the best of my knowledge the remainder of it is correct.

Mr. HUBERT. All right. Now, I ask you to look at the document which has been previously identified as Exhibit 5332, and state whether it is a true and correct copy--report on the interview had of you by Special Agents Pinkston and Brown on November 30, 1963?

Mr. HUFFAKER. The first sentence of the second paragraph could be slightly misleading.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, let’s identify that sentence--it reads as follows----

Mr. HUFFAKER. I beg your pardon, it’s the third paragraph.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, the quote is as follows:

“On the morning of November 24, 1963, he was assigned to get the story of the transfer of Lee Harvey Oswald from the Dallas City Jail to the Dallas County Jail, and went to the Dallas Police and Courts Building for this purpose.”

Do you wish to comment upon that sentence?

Mr. HUFFAKER. Yes; this was not the sole purpose of my being there. I was working at the time for KRLD, my regular employer, and also for CBS News and I was there to report, and the city hall was my assignment from the beginning of the morning of November 23.

Mr. HUBERT. By city hall, do you mean the building in which the Dallas police is housed?

Mr. HUFFAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. You are aware that there is another building called the Municipal Building which is a separate building?

Mr. HUFFAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. So, that when you say “city hall” you don’t mean the Municipal Building, you mean the Dallas Police Department Building?

Mr. HUFFAKER. That’s right, and from the morning of November 23, the assignment had been given to me to cover for KRLD and to help CBS cover anything that might happen there, and our interest on this particular day was not necessarily focused on the transfer of Lee Oswald.

Mr. HUBERT. All right.

Mr. HUFFAKER. Let’s see--yes; this spelling of the name here of Bob--his last name is not correct.

Mr. HUBERT. That’s in the fourth paragraph, the fourth line, and it is shown as Bob Hinkle [spelling] H-i-n-k-l-e. You say that that spelling is wrong?

Mr. HUFFAKER. That the spelling is incorrect.

Mr. HUBERT. What is the correct spelling?

Mr. HUFFAKER. It should be--this was the spelling I gave them, however, on that interview. I have since discovered that it is H-a-n-k-l-e or “e-l”--I’m still not certain.

Mr. HUBERT. I think that the man’s name is actually [spelling] H-a-n-k-a-l.

Mr. HUFFAKER. You are right. [Spelling] H-a-n-a-k-a-l is right.

Now, I believe I did notice something in that other statement--I thought perhaps it was in this one.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you want to finish with this one first?

Mr. HUFFAKER. I guess I had better.

Mr. HUBERT. And by this one, we mean No. 5332?

Mr. HUFFAKER. Well, again, it says I “saw them searching the cars”--I saw them searching among the cars.

Mr. HUBERT. Then, I think we can say that Exhibit 5332, with the corrections that have been made is a fair and correct report of the interview of you on November 30, right?

Mr. HUFFAKER. Right, sir; with that change that I saw them searching among the cars, rather than searching the cars themselves.

Mr. HUBERT. All right; that has gone into the record. Now, you want to go back, I think, to Exhibit 5331?

Mr. HUFFAKER. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. There is something more you wish to say about that one?

Mr. HUFFAKER. That’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. Will you tell us what it is?

Mr. HUFFAKER. All right; it refers to this sentence----

Mr. HUBERT. All right; the sentence that the witness is referring to is in the third paragraph--it is the third sentence and it reads as follows:

“He had assumed a station directly in front of the doors leading from the elevator onto the ramp in the basement and had been trying to keep persons out of the line of the KLRD cameras in order that Oswald could be photographed as he left the doors leading from the elevators.”

Now, do you wish to comment about that sentence?

Mr. HUFFAKER. Yes, sir; there are two discrepancies in that one. I had assumed a station directly in front of the doors leading from the interior basement of the Dallas Police Headquarters into the basement parking area, rather than leading from the elevator onto the ramp. And, I had been attempting to keep persons out of the line of the KRLD camera, but this was not in order that Oswald could be photographed, but it was in order that the live camera--the--because this was not a film camera such as that that George Phenix was using, but a live camera--so that it would enable our live cameras to pick him up as he left the door leading from the jail office into the basement, rather than leading from the elevator.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, sir; other than the wording of that, and other than the corrections you have previously made as to Exhibit 5331, do you think it is a fair statement of the interview of you on November 28?

Mr. HUFFAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, I have marked for the purpose of identification a chart of the basement which, as you can see on this FBI mockup before you is a chart of the same object except that the map covers some area not covered by the mockup, and for the purpose of identification, I have marked it as “Dallas, Tex., April 16, 1964, Exhibit No. 5333, Deposition of R. S. Huffaker, Jr.”

And I have signed my name below it. Now, I think your statements previously given and identified as Nos. 5331 and 5332 indicate that you had taken up a position approximately one-half an hour before the shooting actually occurred; is that correct?

Mr. HUFFAKER. Approximately; yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, I would like you to fix that position by pointing to it on the mockup, and then I will mark it on the chart, and if you agree that it is correctly marked, you may say so, and thus we will have a permanent record of exactly what position you were in?

Mr. HUFFAKER. All right, sir; approximately this position [indicating on the mockup].

Mr. HUBERT. Now, you are fixing a position almost in the middle of the middle segment of the railing, which is divided into three segments, by two horizontal poles, which railing runs from one post on the Commerce Street side of the basement to another post on the Main Street side of the basement; is that correct, sir?

Mr. HUFFAKER. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, you will note that the chart does not show the vertical poles, but will you agree with me that the black part that I am marking (1) and the black part that I am marking (2), represent on the mockup itself the two main poles?

Mr. HUFFAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Will you agree with me, too, that looking at the mockup, there is a railing which runs between those two posts marked (1) and (2) and that that railing is divided by horizontal poles, approximately equidistant from one another and from the two main posts?

Mr. HUFFAKER. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. So that I’m going to mark, at a point which may not be mathematically correct, but is intended to be as a number (3), the position of one of the vertical rails of the railing and the other number (4) as the other vertical rail. Now, as you pointed out the matter to me on the mockup, am I correct in saying that you were at this point?

Mr. HUFFAKER. Let me see--yes, sir; that’s correct.

Mr. HUBERT. I am marking the point with a number (5) in a circle, and I ask you if that is not approximately where you were standing at the time of the shooting and for a period of perhaps 15 to 20 minutes prior thereto?

Mr. HUFFAKER. Well, now, you have the (5) in contact with the railing almost, and I was farther away from the railing, however, its position relation to its distance between point (1) and (2) and point (3) and (4) is correct. However, it was a little farther from the railing.

Mr. HUBERT. How many inches or feet from the railing toward the jail office or jail corridor were you standing, in fact?

Mr. HUFFAKER. Well, to the best of my knowledge, I was probably about--approximately 4 feet from the rail.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, I have written in my own hand and connected it with a line to point (5) the following, “position of R. S. Huffaker, Jr., at the time of shooting, but he was 4 feet from railing.”

Mr. HUFFAKER. Approximately.

Mr. HUBERT. I will add the word “about”--is that correct?

Mr. HUFFAKER. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. “About 4 feet from railing.”

Mr. HUFFAKER. Yes; that’s correct.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, were you there for about 15 or 20 minutes prior to the shooting?

Mr. HUFFAKER. Oh, I was there for at least a half an hour prior to the shooting. You mean in that stable position?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Mr. HUFFAKER. No, sir; not in that very spot.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, how long were you in that very spot?

Mr. HUFFAKER. Let’s see, I could not say for certain, but our video tape which is preserved and in existence will show me taking this position and will be the best evidence of exactly how long I was there.

Mr. HUBERT. Can you give us some idea of the number of people, either police or news media, standing to your right as you stood there?

Mr. HUFFAKER. To my right?

Mr. HUBERT. You were facing the corridor with your back to the parking area and your back to the railing, isn’t that correct?

Mr. HUFFAKER. Well, actually, my back was more facing the Main Street ramp than it was to the parking area. My left side was facing the railing.

Mr. HUBERT. You were almost looking up the ramp that goes to Commerce Street?

Mr. HUFFAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Could you tell us who was on your right or what was the condition of the crowd of people there, how many there were?

Mr. HUFFAKER. There was a large number of people and there were, I would say, at least 12 to 15 people lined up across the ramp and at the wall, which is just outside the jail office there.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, would you take my pen and draw the front line of those people, marking the beginning point as number (6) and the end of that line as (7)?

Mr. HUFFAKER [marking the document as requested]. Now, this line went--sometimes it went up into here [indicating] and I could not say for certain whether it was existent at that time, but there were people all the way up into here, but I would make a rough guess it would be this.

Mr. HUBERT. Will you indicate (6) and (7)--in other words, there were people lined up along the line that you have drawn as (6) and (7) at a single point on one end of that line, too, from what I gather from that?

Mr. HUFFAKER. Not exactly--that is, I’m not certain--there could have been some more between me and the rail.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, in the area back of that line and in the direction of Main Street, you say there were approximately 12 to 15 to 18 people?

Mr. HUFFAKER. No, not behind the line, but actually lined up somewhat in a line like that [indicating].

Mr. HUBERT. What about the number of people on the Main Street side of the line which you have designated as (6) to (7)?

Mr. HUFFAKER. I just don’t know how many people were back there, but I know there was a line of people from this point to this point [indicating].

Mr. HUBERT. Did you see any officers on the opposite side from where you were standing?

Mr. HUFFAKER. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. HUBERT. Will you mark another line, curving it if need be, and starting with (8) and going to (9) and showing us roughly the line of people who were standing where you indicated?

Mr. HUFFAKER. Now, this will be to the best of my recollection [drew the line as requested].

Mr. HUBERT. You have drawn a line, one end of which is (8) in a circle and the other end of which is (9) in a circle--there were people standing along there, you say?

Mr. HUFFAKER. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know who they were?

Mr. HUFFAKER. Most of them were police officers. I don’t know any of them by name, but I was aware that they were police officers. That is, I do not believe that I knew any of them by name.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you see Ruby come out of the crowd?

Mr. HUFFAKER. No, sir; I didn’t.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you hear him?

Mr. HUFFAKER. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. When did you first observe that something had happened?

Mr. HUFFAKER. When I heard the shot, I recognized it as the sound of a .38, and just as soon as reflexes would do it, I turned and saw Oswald as he fell. I really could not distinguish Ruby from the mass of humanity that was there, but the thing that I saw when I turned around was Oswald falling.

Mr. HUBERT. What distance do you suppose there was between your body and Oswald’s body at the time you saw this? You may look, for example, in this room and see. Stay where you are and let me stand away from you--was it this far or farther or closer or what? [Hubert walked distances as indicated by the question.]

Mr. HUFFAKER. Let me see--let me stand up--it was about this far.

Mr. HUBERT. What do you judge, “this distance” to be?

Mr. HUFFAKER. Well, I would say it is about 11 feet.

Mr. HUBERT. All right. Did you hear Ruby say anything?

Mr. HUFFAKER. No, sir; I did not.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you hear anyone else say anything which was distinguishable?

Mr. HUFFAKER. Not distinguishable--that is, not at the moment of the shot. Immediately before or after----

Mr. HUBERT. Did you hear anything at any time after?

Mr. HUFFAKER. Yes, sir; I did, which I could not quote it exactly, but the first thing that I distinguished, the first utterance that I could distinguish, and as I say, I do not recall the exact words, but I heard Police Officer Richard Swain who was--I don’t know where he was before the shot was fired, but immediately afterward, he was standing a very short distance from me blocking access of anyone else, and he made--he shouted out for no one to come any further.

Mr. HUBERT. You don’t remember the words?

Mr. HUFFAKER. The words, frankly, I think he said, “I’ll knock you on your ass,” but I’m not certain exactly what the words were.

Mr. HUBERT. But in any case, in the sense you understood the officer, he was trying to keep anybody from converging there?

Mr. HUFFAKER. And how. Yes; he was.

Mr. HUBERT. There’s one other thing I wanted to do by way of position. I’m going to roughly draw a rectangle which will not be in scale but I hope that it will fix the position of the television camera unit of KRLD which you were attached to.

Mr. HUFFAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. In the first place, I understand it was on the other side of the rail from you?

Mr. HUFFAKER. That’s correct.

Mr. HUBERT. I understand further that some of its mechanisms, its camera mechanisms were actually sticking out over the rail?

Mr. HUFFAKER. I think actually it protruded through the rail, rather than over the rail, but I really can’t say for certain--I think it was through the rail.

Mr. HUBERT. As I understand it, it was to your back and left more or less?

Mr. HUFFAKER. That’s correct.

Mr. HUBERT. So that although it is not intended to be accurate, but just to give a general idea of the position of the KRLD camera, I am marking a rectangle in which I am placing a capital A and would you agree that that figure shows, generally speaking, the position of the camera of KRLD?

Mr. HUFFAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. In order to make the map self explanatory to some extent, I am writing on it as follows: “Approximate position of KRLD camera.”

Mr. HUFFAKER. Well, it might be well to distinguish this camera as the live television camera from the film camera.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, I will put in parentheses “live,” is that correct?

Mr. HUFFAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you think that it is correct to state that anyone who would read your two statements, Exhibits 5331 and 5332 and who would also read the transcript of the deposition and have available at the time they are reading that, this chart, would have as accurate a story of the facts as you know them as is possible?

Mr. HUFFAKER. Yes, sir; and of course my story could be--sometimes could be fixed by looking at our video tape, and by the way, I am sorry--I was going to look at it before today.

Mr. HUBERT. We have done that.

Mr. HUFFAKER. I’m sure you have, but anyway I was going to look at it to refresh my memory. I didn’t ever get a chance to.

Mr. HUBERT. Have you been interviewed by any member of the Commission’s staff prior to today?

Mr. HUFFAKER. No; by no member of the Commission’s staff.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, you and I spoke a little bit prior to the commencement of this deposition, but do you perceive that we spoke about anything which has not been subsequently brought up and discussed in this deposition?

Mr. HUFFAKER. No; that’s correct. We did not discuss anything that has not been brought up in it.

Mr. HUBERT. Thank you very much.

Mr. HUFFAKER. Thank you.

TESTIMONY OF GEORGE R. PHENIX

The testimony of George R. Phenix was taken at 3:40 p.m., on April 16, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr., assistant counsel of the President’s Commission.

Mr. HUBERT. Mr. Phenix, my name is Leon Hubert. I am a member of the advisory staff of the General Counsel of the President’s Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy. Under the provisions of Executive Order 11130, dated November 29, 1963, and the Joint Resolution of the Congress, No. 137, and the rules of procedure adopted by the Commission in conformance with the Executive order and the joint resolution, I have been authorized to take a sworn deposition from you.

I state to you now that the general nature of the Commission’s inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate, and report upon the facts relating to the assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of Lee Harvey Oswald. In particular as to you, Mr. Phenix, the nature of the inquiry today is to determine all the facts you know about the death of Oswald and any other pertinent facts you may know about the general inquiry and the activities of Jack Ruby.

Mr. Phenix, I think you appeared here as a result of a written request addressed to you by Mr. J. Lee Rankin, who is the General Counsel of the President’s Commission.

Mr. PHENIX. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And I ask you now, you received that written request more than 3 days ago?

Mr. PHENIX. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Will you rise and be sworn? Do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. PHENIX. I do.

Mr. HUBERT. Will you please state your name?

Mr. PHENIX. George R. Phenix.

Mr. HUBERT. And your age?

Mr. PHENIX. Twenty-five.

Mr. HUBERT. Where do you live?

Mr. PHENIX. 2550 Klondike.

Mr. HUBERT. What is your occupation?

Mr. PHENIX. I am a reporter--cameraman.

Mr. HUBERT. What station?