Chapter XV: Part 15

Mr. HUBERT. This is the deposition of Mr. Sidney Evans, Jr. Mr. Evans, my name is Leon D. Hubert, I am a member of the advisory staff of the President’s Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy. Under the provisions of the Executive Order No. 11130, dated November 29, 1963, and Joint Resolution of Congress No. 137, and the rules of procedure adopted by the Commission in conformance with the Executive order and the joint resolution, I have been authorized to take the sworn deposition from you. I state to you now that the general nature of the Commission’s inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate and report upon the facts relating to the assassination of President Kennedy and subsequent violent death of Lee Harvey Oswald. In particular, as to you, Mr. Evans, the nature of the inquiry is to determine what facts you know about the death of Oswald and any other pertinent facts you may know about the general inquiry, particularly as to the whereabouts of Jack Ruby around--on the morning of November 24. Now, did you receive a letter from the General Counsel of the President’s Commission, Mr. J. Lee Rankin?

Mr. EVANS. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Such a letter was addressed to you and apparently miscarried somehow, but in any case----

Mr. EVANS. Might have went to those apartments. See, I was working out of Houston, and they cut the run and I had to transfer, and that was the reason that the three of us was sharing the apartment there.

Mr. HUBERT. Let me state this to you. Under the rules adopted by the Commission, you are entitled to a 3-day written notice prior to the taking of the deposition, and it was sent out by mail, but apparently hasn’t reached you. The rules of the Commission also provide that you can waive that notice if you want to do so, and I will ask you now if you are willing to waive that 3-day notice and let us take your deposition?

Mr. EVANS. It don’t matter. I want to get it over with. I done lost too much already.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, would you stand and raise your right hand so that I can administer the oath? Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. EVANS. I do.

Mr. HUBERT. Will you please state your name, Mr. Evans.

Mr. EVANS. Sidney Evans, Jr.

Mr. HUBERT. And your age?

Mr. EVANS. Thirty-seven, I think.

Mr. HUBERT. Where do you reside, sir?

Mr. EVANS. Retired?

Mr. HUBERT. Where do you live?

Mr. EVANS. 2205 Marvel. M-a-r-v-e-l.

Mr. HUBERT. Is that in Dallas?

Mr. EVANS. Irving, Tex.

Mr. HUBERT. Irving, Tex.?

Mr. EVANS. Uh-huh, that is----

Mr. HUBERT. What is your occupation, sir?

Mr. EVANS. Line driver for Red Ball Motor Freight.

Mr. HUBERT. How long have you been so employed?

Mr. EVANS. Since 1958.

Mr. HUBERT. All right.

Mr. EVANS. Six years.

Mr. HUBERT. In November of 1963, where did you live?

Mr. EVANS. My home is in Houston, but I was still at the Marsalis Apartments.

Mr. HUBERT. Where is that located, that Marsalis Apartments?

Mr. EVANS. 232 Ewing, I believe, or, I don’t know.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you say 223 South Ewing Street?

Mr. EVANS. Well, I guess.

Mr. HUBERT. What apartment did you have?

Mr. EVANS. 204.

Mr. HUBERT. And I think you said you shared that with somebody?

Mr. EVANS. Two other drivers.

Mr. HUBERT. Who are they?

Mr. EVANS. Jack Scritchfield and Malcom Slaughter.

Mr. HUBERT. How long had you been living there with these men, sharing that apartment?

Mr. EVANS. Well, I believe I only stayed there 2 months.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, it was a stopoff place on your runs that you make as a driver, is that right?

Mr. EVANS. Well, you see, they have a bunkhouse, and we were staying in the bunkhouse, but the company said that we can’t do that no more, and our families were still in Houston, so, we had to have a place to sleep when we were in a town, and sometimes wouldn’t be there 1 day a week.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you estimate that you actually shared this apartment with these other two gentlemen for about 2 months?

Mr. EVANS. Two months.

Mr. HUBERT. And how often, or how many times, put it that way, during those 2 months prior to November 24, 1963, did you actually stay overnight or stay in the daytime in this apartment?

Mr. EVANS. I don’t believe it was once a week.

Mr. HUBERT. About once a week? So, about eight or nine times, you think, during this period?

Mr. EVANS. Something like that. About the only time we would be there is if we came in Saturday, we would be there Saturday, or Saturday night and run out Sunday.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall being at that apartment on November 24, 1963, the Sunday after the President was assassinated?

Mr. EVANS. That was the morning Oswald was shot? Yes, all three of us was there that day.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you have occasion that day to see a man by the name of Jack Ruby?

Mr. EVANS. Well, I guess it was him.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, tell us how you----

Mr. EVANS. Well, you see----

Mr. HUBERT. Came to think it was him or guess it was him?

Mr. EVANS. Well, see, the church I have been going to is over in Irving, and they had one, I found out, over there on Marsalis, Catholic Church there in Oak Cliff, and I thought they had 10 o’clock mass, but I went and they had a 9 and 11.

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Mr. EVANS. So, I come back to the apartment at--well, it was just a little bit before 10, and just as I got out of the car a fellow come out of the laundry, and he had his--both hands with laundry in them, and I stepped out of my car, and I kind of waited for him to go on up, and he kind of waited for me.

Mr. HUBERT. How close did you get to him?

Mr. EVANS. Well, we wasn’t--right then only about 15 feet, something like that.

Mr. HUBERT. How was the man dressed?

Mr. EVANS. He was--had on a T-shirt, pants and T-shirt.

Mr. HUBERT. No hat?

Mr. EVANS. No hat.

Mr. HUBERT. And you said he had some laundry in his hands?

Mr. EVANS. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he live in that same apartment house?

Mr. EVANS. Well, I went up the stairs first, and he went up behind me, and we went up the first flight. I figured he lived on the first flight. I didn’t know where he lived, so, when we went around and went up the second flight he was right behind me, and I said, “How are you this morning?” And he ignored me like I didn’t--well, somebody going along with both arms full of laundry, I would open the door, because he was going up on the same floor, so, when he didn’t speak with me, I said, “Well, heck with you.” So, I walked on and he went in 207 there.

Mr. HUBERT. He went in apartment 207? Was this laundry he had already clean, or what?

Mr. EVANS. Well, they had a--they’ve got a washer and dryer in the basement in the apartment.

Mr. HUBERT. He was coming up from the washateria?

Mr. EVANS. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And he went into apartment 207?

Mr. EVANS. Yes. And, so, I went in. Two buddies were up, so, we ate breakfast and I went back to church at 11.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, you had gone to try to catch the 10 o’clock mass?

Mr. EVANS. Yes; but didn’t have at 10. Had to go at 11.

Mr. HUBERT. At what time did you leave your apartment?

Mr. EVANS. I left about a quarter of 11.

Mr. HUBERT. I mean the first time?

Mr. EVANS. About a quarter until 10.

Mr. HUBERT. Quarter to 10? And you got there and found out mass was at 9:30?

Mr. EVANS. No; it was 9. Just getting over.

Mr. HUBERT. Just getting over, so you just came on back to the apartment?

Mr. EVANS. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. How long was it between the time you left your apartment and--until the time you got back on the first round when you found out----

Mr. EVANS. Well, it only takes about six or seven blocks from the apartment.

Mr. HUBERT. You were driving?

Mr. EVANS. Driving. It takes less than----

Mr. HUBERT. So, you figure about 10 o’clock or a little before?

Mr. EVANS. A little before 10.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, have you subsequently seen pictures of Jack Ruby?

Mr. EVANS. I have seen pictures.

Mr. HUBERT. Have you seen him in person since?

Mr. EVANS. That is the only time I ever seen him.

Mr. HUBERT. You had never seen him before that date?

Mr. EVANS. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Never since?

Mr. EVANS. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you think that the man you saw that morning that you have just described was the same man that you have seen in the pictures?

Mr. EVANS. Well, I really didn’t get a close look. All I know, he went in that apartment, and it is my understanding he had a roommate, but it might have been him.

Mr. HUBERT. What I wanted to ask is whether or not the pictures that you have seen in the newspapers since of a person now known as Jack Ruby was the same man, in your opinion, that you saw with the laundry in his hands at about 10 o’clock on November 24?

Mr. EVANS. Well, it could be. I mean, kind of--didn’t have real thick hair on top.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, I show you a series of pictures here, which for purposes of identification I am marking on the back as follows, “Dallas, Texas, March 31, 1964. Exhibit No. 5122, deposition of Sidney Evans, Jr.,” and signing my name to it, and in order that the record may show that we are both talking about the same document, I will ask you to put your name under mine, after which, I will ask you some questions about it.

Mr. EVANS. All right.

Mr. HUBERT. I will ask you to turn the document over and look at those several photos there of a man and ask you if that is the man you saw carrying the laundry on the morning of November 24, at about 10 o’clock.

Mr. EVANS. Well, it looks like him. Of course, he didn’t have on nothing but a T-shirt, white T-shirt when I saw him.

Mr. HUBERT. Yes; what I was thinking about, his face----

Mr. EVANS. Well, you know, I just looked over my shoulder. He was coming up the stairs there behind me, and I said, “How are you this morning?” and he----

Mr. HUBERT. Well, I take it that you looked at him several times, that is to say, you looked at him when you first saw him?

Mr. EVANS. I didn’t really look at him.

Mr. HUBERT. Then what did you do? Offer to open the door----

Mr. EVANS. I just, you know, I spoke to him, and I--he was coming up the same floor I was going up and I never paid much--in fact, I----

Mr. HUBERT. At sometime you must have mentioned to somebody that you thought you had seen this man on that Sunday, and that he was Jack Ruby. Do you recall how that came about?

Mr. EVANS. Well, one of these buddies there, he told some newspaperman a bunch--that he told them all about that when I wasn’t even there at the time.

Mr. HUBERT. You mean at the time that he told the story?

Mr. EVANS. He told them all about it.

Mr. HUBERT. We are talking about now, Malcom Slaughter, aren’t we?

Mr. EVANS. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. You had told Slaughter that you thought that man you had seen was Ruby?

Mr. EVANS. After we ate and I went back to the 11 o’clock mass, and it was close to 12 o’clock when I got back to the apartment.

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Mr. EVANS. And just as soon as I opened the door these guys told me Oswald had been shot.

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Mr. EVANS. And so, then, it wasn’t long before 1 o’clock Life Magazine, and--man, they was out there taking picture, and newspapers, and they were taking pictures of the apartment and interviewing different people there.

Mr. HUBERT. So, it was at that time that you told Mr. Slaughter that you thought you had seen Ruby that morning?

Mr. EVANS. Yes; I told him what happened there and the guy had went in that apartment there.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you know his roommate, I think you mentioned something about a roommate?

Mr. EVANS. I understand the papers said there were two of them staying there.

Mr. HUBERT. But you don’t know of your own knowledge?

Mr. EVANS. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Had you ever seen the man who was supposed to be his roommate?

Mr. EVANS. In fact, we was not in there, and sleeping in the daytime mostly when we was there, so I really don’t know anyone there.

Mr. HUBERT. Anyhow, this man that you saw, who you think might have been Ruby, you never had seen him before nor have you seen him after?

Mr. EVANS. No.

Mr. HUBERT. And your testimony is that this document identified as Exhibit 5122, looks like him?

Mr. EVANS. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. But that he had on a T-shirt instead of a tie and the----

Mr. EVANS. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Then did he have a hat on?

Mr. EVANS. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you see his hair?

Mr. EVANS. Well, it was kind of thin there down the middle. That looks a little darker than what I remembered. Seemed like he was sort of grayish.

Mr. HUBERT. How tall a man was he?

Mr. EVANS. He was a lot shorter than I was, five something.

Mr. HUBERT. How tall are you?

Mr. EVANS. Six.

Mr. HUBERT. You are 6 foot?

Mr. EVANS. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. You say 5 foot what?

Mr. EVANS. Five six or----

Mr. HUBERT. What sort of build?

Mr. EVANS. Stout and husky.

Mr. HUBERT. How--powerful looking man?

Mr. EVANS. Well----

Mr. HUBERT. Strong looking?

Mr. EVANS. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Have you anything else that you know?

Mr. EVANS. That is all I know. Well, I know Slaughter told me that he’s seen him dressed up not long after that.

Mr. HUBERT. Did I understand you to say that Mr. Slaughter made some comment about this man known as Jack Ruby----

Mr. EVANS. Well, they told me he did. I don’t know whether he did or not.

Mr. HUBERT. What did he tell you?

Mr. EVANS. Said that he--not long after I had left and went back to church, he said a man had--dressed up, and walked by our apartment, and he spoke to him, or something, I don’t know.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he say that he thought it was Ruby?

Mr. EVANS. They said they thought it was.

Mr. HUBERT. When did they say they had seen him?

Mr. EVANS. Well, if it was him it was somewhere right at 11 o’clock.

Mr. HUBERT. When did he tell you that?

Mr. EVANS. After we got back, found out what happened.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, told you on that same day?

Mr. EVANS. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. When you told him that you thought you had seen Ruby earlier when he was carrying in laundry, he told you that he thought he had seen him dressed up a little later?

Mr. EVANS. Uh-huh, that was after Oswald was shot, and they was out there taking pictures.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever advise the FBI agent that you had seen Ruby around the apartment, although you did not know him personally?

Mr. EVANS. No, sir; I never did. The only time I saw him was that one time.

Mr. HUBERT. If it was Ruby? Right?

Mr. EVANS. Right. There was a landlady there, after that was all over there, she told us that--well, in fact, these two guys that I room with had rented the apartment, and I was out of town, and called me long distance and wanted to know if I wanted to share it with them, because it was pretty expensive for two men, and no more than we stayed there--I said, well, I had to stay somewhere, and had to have a phone so that the company could call me. Something that you--that they require is that you have to have a telephone.

Mr. HUBERT. What about the landlady?

Mr. EVANS. She said during the summer months he would climb up on the roof and sunbath up there.

Mr. HUBERT. Who? Ruby?

Mr. EVANS. Ruby, whatever----

Mr. HUBERT. She tell you that?

Mr. EVANS. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. What is her name? Do you know?

Mr. EVANS. No; I don’t, but they moved a week or two after that. It seemed like there was somebody interviewing them--it was a young man and his wife. They moved out in Irving some place, but I don’t know where they moved to.

Mr. HUBERT. You mean that is the third partner?

Mr. EVANS. No; that is the landlady or the landlord and his wife, or the people that rented the apartments.

Mr. HUBERT. And you say they moved and went to live in Irving?

Mr. EVANS. Somewhere, and said he bought them a place.

Mr. HUBERT. So, they don’t manage the apartment any more?

Mr. EVANS. I guess it was about 2 weeks.

Mr. HUBERT. You don’t know their names?

Mr. EVANS. No; see, these two friends of mine, they had rented the apartment, and they had talked to the landlady and actually only supposed to be two people staying in there. In fact, they would be--I would pay them my share and they would pay the note.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know where Slaughter lives now?

Mr. EVANS. Well, he still lives in Houston, and they have given up the apartment.

Mr. HUBERT. Oh, they have?

Mr. EVANS. Too expensive for two of them.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know what his address is in Houston, or how he could be reached? Well, he works for the same company that you do?

Mr. EVANS. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. That is the Red Ball Motor Freight?

Mr. EVANS. Red Ball Motor Freight.

Mr. HUBERT. Where is it located in Houston, the main office?

Mr. EVANS. 4000–4004 Irving Street, Houston.

Mr. HUBERT. Irving Boulevard, Houston, Tex. Now, I think you have given the name of the other man.

Mr. EVANS. Scritchfield. Of course, he didn’t----

Mr. HUBERT. Scritchfield?

Mr. EVANS. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know where he is?

Mr. EVANS. He is here in Dallas. I mean, he is staying up here. I don’t know----

Mr. HUBERT. He could be reached through your company, too, is that right?

Mr. EVANS. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, sir.

Mr. EVANS. Isn’t nothing that he knows about it. The only one would be Malcolm, and he said he seen a man who was dressed up that looked like him that he spoke to outside the apartment there. I think he went down to get a letter or something, or check the mail, or something.

Mr. HUBERT. Who did? Slaughter?

Mr. EVANS. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Had Slaughter indicated that he knew Ruby?

Mr. EVANS. No; he didn’t know him. Just like I was, just stayed there maybe one day a week, you know, and----

Mr. HUBERT. Well, all right; I think that’s it.

Mr. EVANS. Didn’t know anyone there.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, now, have you been interviewed prior to today by any member of the Commission’s staff?

Mr. EVANS. No, sir; I believe there was a Mr. Page, or something--somebody----

Mr. HUBERT. FBI man?

Mr. EVANS. Talked to me.

Mr. HUBERT. I am talking about a member of the advisory staff of the Commission itself?

Mr. EVANS. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, prior to the commencement of this interview--I mean this deposition, there was a short interview between you and me. Did anything occur during that interview which we have not brought out in the deposition?

Mr. EVANS. No.

Mr. HUBERT. I think that is all, sir.

TESTIMONY OF BRUCE RAY CARLIN

The testimony of Bruce Ray Carlin was taken at 4:30 p.m., on April 15, 1964, at the Post Office Building, Fort Worth, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr., assistant counsel of the President’s Commission.

Mr. HUBERT. This is the deposition of Bruce Carlin. Let the record show that his attorney, Mr. Alfred J. Jackson of the firm of Tuchin & Jackson, 705 Fair Building, Fort Worth, Tex., is present and representing Mr. Carlin during the time this deposition is being taken. Let the record show also that Mrs. Bruce Carlin, his wife, is also in the room.

By the way, and this may go on the record, too, Mr. Jackson, you had mentioned to me prior to the beginning of the deposition something about obtaining a copy.

Mr. JACKSON. We don’t want one.

Mr. HUBERT. Let me say to you that a copy can be made available to you at the cost which the reporter will charge you for the copy.

(Reporter stated that the price to them would be 35 cents per page.)

Mr. JACKSON. They want one.

Mr. HUBERT. Miss Laidrich, at the end of each of these depositions let there be a statement to the effect that Mr. Jackson--why don’t you dictate it.

Mr. JACKSON. Let the record show that Bruce Carlin and his wife, Karen Bennett Carlin, have made it known at this time to the interrogator representing the Warren Commission that each of them would like a copy of their deposition in this matter, that at this time each is financially unable to pay for said deposition and reserves the right to obtain a copy of said deposition at some later date.

Mr. HUBERT. My name is Leon Hubert. I am a member of the advisory staff of the General Counsel of the President’s Commission.

Under the provisions of Executive Order 11130, dated November 29, 1963, the Joint Resolution of Congress No. 137, and the rules of procedure adopted by the Commission, in conformance with the Executive order and the joint resolution, I have been authorized to take a sworn deposition from you, Mr. Carlin.

I state to you now that the general nature of the Commission’s inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate, and report upon the facts relative to the assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of Lee Harvey Oswald.

In particular as to you, Mr. Carlin, the nature of the inquiry today is to determine what facts you know about the death of Oswald, and any other pertinent facts you might know about the general inquiry, particularly concerning conversations you had with Mr. Ruby on the 23d and 24th, and your knowledge concerning a telegram by which your wife received $25 from Mr. Ruby.

Now Mr. Carlin, I think you have appeared here today by virtue of a letter addressed to you by Mr. J. Lee Rankin, General Counsel for the President’s Commission; is that correct, sir?

Mr. CARLIN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Have you received that, or did you receive that more than 3 days ago?

Mr. CARLIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, would you stand, and I will administer the oath.

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. CARLIN. I do.

Mr. HUBERT. Would you state your name.

Mr. CARLIN. Bruce Ray Carlin.

Mr. HUBERT. How old are you, sir?

Mr. CARLIN. Twenty-three

Mr. HUBERT. Where do you live?

Mr. CARLIN. 1312 Fairmont, Fort Worth.

Mr. HUBERT. Well----

Mr. JACKSON. At this time for other address purposes, will you tell us the name of your father?

Mr. CARLIN. H. T. Carlin.

Mr. JACKSON. Where does he live?

Mr. CARLIN. Route 13, Box 258, Fort Worth.

Mr. HUBERT. Are you presently occupied, Mr. Carlin?

Mr. CARLIN. I am not.

Mr. HUBERT. What has been, generally speaking, your occupation?

Mr. CARLIN. I am a salesman.

Mr. HUBERT. You sell any particular product?

Mr. CARLIN. Yes. Except for one job where I worked for a greeting card company, I sell sundries like drugs, hair sprays and headache remedies.

Mr. HUBERT. What companies have you worked with?

Mr. CARLIN. The Blue Bonnet Drug Co. in Arlington, Big State Mercantile in San Antonio, and Motel Drug Service in Fort Worth.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, Mr. Carlin, you were present during the deposition of your wife just within the last hour and a half?

Mr. CARLIN. That’s correct.

Mr. HUBERT. I want to cover those areas, if possible, in this way, by asking you if you have any other versions of what she said and testified to on the various points involved. I think in that way we can save time. In other words, if you would prefer, of course, I can go through it, but since you were here, and if it is agreeable to your counsel, we can get at it that way.

Did you hear her say anything which, to your knowledge, you would disagree with, and I don’t mean by that of course to put either of you in a position of not saying the truth, but just simply that it is a recognition that witnesses sometimes see things differently than others in complete good faith on the part of both witnesses, you understand?

Mr. CARLIN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Any variations that you saw?

Mr. CARLIN. [To Mr. Jackson.] May I ask, at the time that I talked to you, did you make some kind of notes or is that what you are doing?

Mr. JACKSON. I was taking notes of the whole proceedings. Let me ask you, on November 22, 1963, Karen said she heard about the shooting of the President from Andrew Armstrong. Who called and stated that the Carousel would be closed that night? I think you indicated to me that at the time you or maybe possibly you and she heard about it in some other way prior to that time?

Mr. CARLIN. I myself misunderstood the question--that is correct, but what I thought she said was the way she heard that Oswald was killed.

Mr. JACKSON. All right, to your knowledge, how did she learn that Oswald was killed?

Mr. CARLIN. I was watching television and I don’t remember the program, but a news bulletin interrupted the program and said a man by the name of Ruby, I believe.

Mr. JACKSON. Jack Ruby?

Mr. CARLIN. I don’t remember whether it said Jack or it said Ruby, a Dallas nightclub owner, had attempted to assassinate Lee Harvey Oswald, the assassinator of John F. Kennedy, and I made the statement, “I bet they mean Ruby.”

Mr. JACKSON. You made the statement to whom?

Mr. CARLIN. Karen. I said, “I bet they mean Ruby.”

Mr. JACKSON. Why did you make this statement, do you remember?

Mr. HUBERT. Mr. Jackson, may I ask him--I have no objection whatsoever to your asking any questions, but I think perhaps for the sake of the record, it would be better if I ask them, and then when we finish asking him, you absolutely have the right to go ahead.

Mr. JACKSON. I was just trying to help you.

Mr. CARLIN. I really don’t recall if it said Jack Ruby or not. I don’t know what made me say, “I bet that is Ruby,” but I know the announcer on TV seemed not to be sure, and said that this was not verified yet. And only a few minutes later the phone rang and it was Tammi True who asked if I had seen television.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you speak to her yourself?

Mr. CARLIN. Yes, I picked the phone up and she said, “Were you watching television?” And I said, “Yes.” She said, “Did you know Jack Ruby just killed Oswald?” And I said, “I just made that statement to Karen, I bet that is what the man meant.” The only reason that I can think of that I said, “I bet that is Jack Ruby,” is the fact that he may have said Jack Ruby, or maybe a man by the name of Ruby running a Dallas strip joint. I think that is the way he said it.

Mr. HUBERT. In any case, what you want to tell now is that you differ with your wife’s recollection of how she learned of the shooting of Oswald in that you yourself saw it on television and remarked to her that at least it could have been Jack Ruby, and then it was confirmed by the call?

Mr. CARLIN. This is what she said, except the fact she forgot that Tammi True had called. I don’t think she even said in her statement a while ago except for the fact that she was thinking she had seen it on television. Of course, we all saw it so many times.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, Mr. Jackson, do you want to pursue any further?

Mr. JACKSON. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Have you any other aspects of the matter that you would like to comment upon relative to your wife’s testimony first?

Mr. CARLIN. A number of times there were a few things, very minor, which a person’s memory might be--mine is failing me. There are a few things that were said that I did not know about, that she mentioned. But this is because I was not always at the club.

Mr. HUBERT. What I mean to do by this is to simply ask you this. So far as you have heard it and except in the way you have corrected it, your version of the role you played in the things you did and the things you said and the things you heard is about the same as your wife’s, is that correct?

Mr. CARLIN. There are two more things that I can think of right now, and let me state both of them. One is concerning the rent, and one is the fact that I talked to him, which she stated she didn’t know what we were saying. But I talked to him in the parking lot that night.

Mr. HUBERT. Take one at a time.

Mr. CARLIN. Concerning the parking lot conversation on the phone. She came back to the table in Colony Club and was rather upset about the fact Jack talked to her that way, and it made me a little upset, and I said I will call him next time. And I called him from the parking lot, and he said, “Bruce, that girl works for me, and she gets paid on a certain day.” And I think it was Mondays. But the way I remember it, there were--I mean Sundays, I am sorry--but there were times when they went over to the next day before they got paid. He said, “She works for me and she is to get paid at a certain time and I don’t owe the girl anything.”

I said, “I realize that, Jack, but we need the money to get back.” And he said, “Well, I’ve got some people here and I can’t come down right now.” And then he said, “I will just tell the attendant at the parking lot to give you all some money. Let me speak to Karen or to Little Lynn,” I believe is the way he said it, and I handed the phone to her, as she said.

Mr. HUBERT. When you spoke to him, were you asking simply for money to get back, or for money to pay rent and buy groceries and so forth?

Mr. CARLIN. At that time we were asking for money to get back. Not working steadily, because my job requires a good car and mine was out of commission, at times this man that I worked for with the Motel Drug Service, which promised me a good job in the future, would come by and pick me up to help me. And one day he might pay me a little bit of money to get along on, and I never knew when I was going to get any, so all we were interested in at the time was getting home. When I gave the phone to her, she stated we needed the money for rent and groceries.

Mr. HUBERT. You heard that yourself? You heard her say that?

Mr. CARLIN. I do not recall whether she said that at that time. As far as the money going for rent and groceries, because I didn’t know that I would have to remember, and in fact I talked to Mr. Tom Thomas about it, because somebody from the, some authorities, somebody from the FBI or Secret Service had called to clear up a number of these things on the phone. In fact, they called almost in the middle of the night, and I wouldn’t tell them anything. And he said, “Well, if you are not sure who you are talking to, hang the phone up and call me in the office in Dallas,” and I did.

Mr. HUBERT. Which night was this?

Mr. CARLIN. I have no idea. We had just come home and the phone rang, and I don’t really even remember the man’s name. But I called him back at his office so I would know who I was talking to. It was one of the men who had talked to her, I believe. I don’t recall his name, but at the time I did.

Mr. HUBERT. What did he want to talk about?

Mr. CARLIN. A number of questions which we had both already answered. But he wanted to get them clear again. And then I don’t recall, but for some reason somebody had called up at one time or another which caused us to call Mr. Thomas. I was trying to keep my name, because of my family’s respectability, out, and I wanted Mr. Thomas, who also worked for the same company my father did, and I didn’t want him brought into it if I could help. And he said they were either going to subpoena him to the trial or get a statement from him. And I called him to tell him this.

Then I mentioned something about the rent. When I took the place I paid 3 weeks in advance, and then maybe I would go a week and then I would pay the week before and a week ahead. There was nothing, there was no particular date that I ever paid the rent. Sometimes ahead and sometimes I was behind. I do not know for sure that the $25 that we asked for went for rent at that time or whether we kept it and paid it when it was due, or whether it went for groceries or medicine, which we both needed.

But to make a long story short, I presume the reason she said rent and groceries was those were the two main factors that we needed to exist. All I am trying to clear up is the fact that I am not sure that I gave the landlord money for the rent at that time.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you concur in your wife’s statement that her request to Ruby on the 24th was not made solely for the purpose of rent?

Mr. CARLIN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Now did you actually hear her conversation?

Mr. CARLIN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And she mentioned rent and groceries?

Mr. CARLIN. It seems to me she said something like rent, groceries and other things, just as you would say everybody else. In other words, we needed money to exist until she could get the rest of her check.

Mr. HUBERT. Mr. Carlin, the purpose of this call to Mr. Ruby was, as you have stated it, is that correct?

Mr. CARLIN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. You were not asked by anyone to make this call, is that correct?

Mr. CARLIN. That’s correct, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. No one suggested to you other than your wife, of course, and Ruby himself, that this call be made?

Mr. CARLIN. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Insofar as Ruby suggested it be made, he didn’t suggest anytime, as far as you were concerned, that it be made?

Mr. CARLIN. If he said this, I didn’t hear him saying it to her on the phone. She did ask me to call, I believe, once, maybe twice, before we found the money was there. Just as soon as we found out----

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember how you all decided to call Ruby on the 24th when you did call him?

Mr. CARLIN. Yes. The fact that he said to call, and when we got up, she said that we should call, and then after we heard of Oswald’s death, I think just a few minutes, I asked if the money had come in, and they said no, and I think she called and found out later that the money had come in.

Mr. HUBERT. But I mean, the time of the call to Ruby was not planned or fixed in anyway? It was completely gratuitous?

Mr. CARLIN. When we woke up, we called him. We slept late that day.

Mr. HUBERT. No time had been set prior to calling him?

Mr. CARLIN. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Mr. Carlin, have you been interviewed by any members of the President’s Commission other than myself today?

Mr. CARLIN. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. I suppose we did have what might be considered to be a little interview in some conversation in the hall. Do you recall anything that was said in the hall which has not been brought out in your deposition and your wife’s deposition which I understand you have adopted with the amendments that have been made? In other words, I am trying to ask you if there is anything that we talked about that hasn’t been put in the record, because if it hasn’t we ought to get it in there now.

Mr. CARLIN. I understand, but I cannot think of anything.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, Mr. Jackson, have you anything that you would like to question your client, Mr. Carlin, about, or any statement you wish to make, or observation?

Mr. JACKSON. None.

Mr. HUBERT. That being the case, I think that is all.

TESTIMONY OF KAREN BENNETT CARLIN

The testimony of Karen Bennett Carlin was taken at 3:05 p.m., on April 15, 1964, at the Post Office Building, Fort Worth, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr., assistant counsel of the President’s Commission. Mrs. Carlin was accompanied by her attorney, Mr. Alfred J. Jackson, Jr., and by her husband, Mr. Bruce Carlin.

Mr. HUBERT. This is the deposition of Karen Bennett Carlin. Let the record show that Mrs. Carlin is accompanied by her husband, Mr. Bruce Carlin, and by Mr. Alfred J. Jackson, Jr., attorney at law, in the firm of Tuchin & Jackson, suite 705, Fair Building, Forth Worth 2, Tex., who is representing Mrs. Carlin.

Mrs. Carlin, my name is Leon Hubert. I am a member of the advisory staff of the General Counsel of the President’s Commission. Under the provisions of Executive Order 11130, dated November 29, 1963, the Joint Resolution of Congress No. 137, and the rules of procedure adopted by the Commission, in conformance with the Executive order and the joint resolution, I have been authorized to take a sworn deposition from you, Mrs. Carlin.

I state to you now that the general nature of the Commission’s inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate, and report upon the facts relating to the assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of Lee Harvey Oswald. In particular as to you, Mrs. Carlin, the nature of the inquiry today is to determine what facts you know about the death of Oswald and any other pertinent facts you may know about the general inquiry and in greater particularity, about your conversation by telephone and otherwise with Jack Ruby on the night of the 23d of November, on the 24th of November, and the sending of money by Western Union to you.

Now Mrs. Carlin, I know that you are expecting a baby, and that as a matter of fact the time for the baby to be born is actually past. For that reason, I want to state to you that if in the course of this deposition, which I do not think will last very long anyhow, but if in the course of you feel the slightest discomfort and wish to stop it or recess it, please don’t hesitate to say so, and we will accommodate you completely. You understand that?

Mrs. CARLIN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Just any time you feel you want to stop the deposition, just let us know right away.

Mrs. CARLIN. Okay.

Mr. HUBERT. Now you have appeared here, I think, as a result of a letter addressed to you by Mr. J. Lee Rankin, General Counsel of the President’s Commission?

Mrs. CARLIN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. You have received that letter, I think?

Mrs. CARLIN. [Produces letter.]

Mr. HUBERT. Did you receive that letter more than 3 days ago?

Mrs. CARLIN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Now you need not stand, but would you raise your right hand and I will swear you in. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mrs. CARLIN. I do.

Mr. HUBERT. Mr. Jackson, it may be that you have not seen that, and if you wish to have a moment to look it over----

Mr. JACKSON. Go ahead.

Mr. HUBERT. Let the record show Mr. Jackson indicates he doesn’t wish to stop now.

What is your name, please, ma’am?

Mrs. CARLIN. Karen Lynn Carlin.

Mr. HUBERT. How old are you?

Mrs. CARLIN. Twenty.

Mr. HUBERT. Where do you live, Mrs. Carlin?

Mr. CARLIN. 1312 Fairmont.

Mr. HUBERT. At present I take it you are unoccupied?

Mrs. CARLIN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you know a man by the name of Jack Ruby?

Mrs. CARLIN. Yes; I did.

Mr. HUBERT. Would you state for the record now, ma’am, how you came to know him and how long you have known him, and so forth.

Mr. CARLIN. It was through my husband that I came to know him. I was working at the Theatre Lounge as a stripper and I didn’t like the job there nor the employers, so my husband had heard about the Carousel Club through girls that worked there at the Theatre Lounge, so I went over and talked to Mr. Ruby and in turn I went over and received a job after talking to him.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember about when that was?

Mrs. CARLIN. September?

Mr. JACKSON. Answer on your own.

Mrs. CARLIN. I don’t know.

Mr. HUBERT. Was it in 1963?

Mrs. CARLIN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Let me put it this way. Perhaps we can arrive at it this way. How long before the death of the President did you start to work for Mr. Ruby?

Mrs. CARLIN. I don’t know. I would say about 2 months. I hadn’t been there very long.

Mr. HUBERT. What sort of employment did you obtain with him?

Mrs. CARLIN. Stripper.

Mr. HUBERT. What was your compensation for the job? I mean, was it salary?

Mrs. CARLIN. It was salary. Seven days a week. It was $120 a week.

Mr. HUBERT. A hundred and twenty dollars a week and a 7-day week?

Mrs. CARLIN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. On what day of the week were you paid?

Mrs. CARLIN. On Saturdays.

Mr. HUBERT. Saturday nights?

Mrs. CARLIN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Who paid you?

Mrs. CARLIN. Jack Ruby.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you know a man by the name of Ralph Paul?

Mrs. CARLIN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. What was your understanding of his relation to Jack Ruby or to the Carousel?

Mrs. CARLIN. Well, as I understood it, I met him in the office of Jack Ruby, and he was supposed to be a friend from Chicago that had known him, and he just introduced me as Ralph. And the only thing I knew was that he was a friend of Jack Ruby’s. I didn’t know he had any connection with the club at all.

Mr. HUBERT. You don’t know now?

Mrs. CARLIN. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you see this gentleman Ralph Paul only once?

Mrs. CARLIN. Yes. Before the killing of the President, I only saw him once. But after that, I saw him all the time. He came in all the time.

Mr. HUBERT. You mean he was actually operating the club after?

Mrs. CARLIN. Yes, afterwards.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you find out then that he was the owner and operator of a drive-in restaurant called the Bull Pen at Arlington?

Mrs. CARLIN. No.

Mr. HUBERT. You don’t know that now?

Mrs. CARLIN. No.

Mr. HUBERT. But in any case, prior to the time when Oswald was shot, you had met Paul only once, and you don’t know what his relationship was?

Mrs. CARLIN. That’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. About this young man called Andrew Armstrong, do you recall him?

Mrs. CARLIN. The colored man?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Mrs. CARLIN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. What was his function there?

Mrs. CARLIN. Well, he was supposed to be the janitor to clean up and do little errands and to run the bar. Afterwards, it turned out that he also had a part in running the club.

Mr. HUBERT. You mean after?

Mrs. CARLIN. After the President was killed.

Mr. HUBERT. You stayed on at the club until what date?

Mrs. CARLIN. It was December. I quit--no, I couldn’t say it was in December. It was right before the first. It was a week before the first.

Mr. HUBERT. The first of the year?

Mrs. CARLIN. January; yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know a man by the name of Larry Crafard?

Mrs. CARLIN. Not by name; no.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember Larry?

Mrs. CARLIN. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember a man that stayed there and slept on the premises?

Mrs. CARLIN. No; I don’t know of anyone that did. Andrew was the only one I knew that ever spent the night there, and that was just because he would say so the next evening. He said, “I am tired.” Said, “I had to stay here all night.”

Mr. HUBERT. I might add that this man Larry’s full name was Curtis Laverne Crafard.

Mrs. CARLIN. Yes. That was a little young boy, the one that worked the lights.

Mr. HUBERT. He stayed on the premises?

Mrs. CARLIN. Yes. But he stayed next door most of the time. I know he was sleeping there for a while, but Jack put a stop to it.

Mr. HUBERT. You mean Jack wouldn’t let him sleep in the club?

Mrs. CARLIN. Jack didn’t like him sleeping there, because there was too many things gone.

Mr. HUBERT. Then he made him go next door?

Mrs. CARLIN. He went next door. I don’t know who was next door or what it was next door, but he went next door.

Mr. HUBERT. But what you heard was that this man had, Crafard, Curtis Laverne Crafard had been staying on the premises, but that Jack had put a stop to it and made him move to some place next door, but you don’t know which next door?

Mrs. CARLIN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Who did you hear this from?

Mrs. CARLIN. It was from Larry. He was taking care of the dogs or something.

Mr. HUBERT. He told you he had to move out?

Mrs. CARLIN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Out of the premises altogether?

Mrs. CARLIN. No. He just said, “I am going to have to move. I can’t stay here. I don’t know where I am going to get the money, but I am going to have to move.”

Mr. HUBERT. That must have happened just before the assassination of the President?

Mrs. CARLIN. Yes. After that I didn’t see Larry no more.

Mr. HUBERT. So to your knowledge he never did actually move, but just said he was going to have to move, and he informed you that Jack had told him he would have to move?

Mrs. CARLIN. Yes.

Mr. JACKSON. When you say move, you mean move out at night and not sleep there?

Mrs. CARLIN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. That is what I meant, to move next door, I think is what you meant?

Mrs. CARLIN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Now coming to the event of November 22, where were you? Do you recall when you heard about the shooting of the President?

Mrs. CARLIN. At home.

Mr. HUBERT. How did you hear it, on TV?

Mrs. CARLIN. Television. No; I take that back. The first I heard was when I got the telephone call.

Mr. HUBERT. Who did you receive a telephone call from?

Mrs. CARLIN. Andrew.

Mr. HUBERT. Armstrong?

Mrs. CARLIN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. What did he tell you, do you remember?

Mrs. CARLIN. He just said that the President had been shot and we weren’t going to open, that we would open the next night, and I hung up.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, it would be closed on Friday, but open on Saturday?

Mrs. CARLIN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Anytime you want to interject any kind of comment, let me know and I will stop. You did not speak to Ruby at that time?

Mrs. CARLIN. No. Andrew was calling from the club, he said, and just wanted to let all the girls know that they needn’t come to work.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you stay then in Fort Worth that night?

Mrs. CARLIN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. I think you indicated that Andrew did not tell you that the club would not be open Saturday?

Mrs. CARLIN. Saturday?

Mr. HUBERT. Saturday.

Mrs. CARLIN. He said that it would probably be open Saturday. He said to call to make sure.

Mr. HUBERT. He asked you to call to make sure?

Mrs. CARLIN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you call?

Mrs. CARLIN. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Instead, you came in?

Mrs. CARLIN. Yes. I tried to call. There wasn’t anybody there in the evening, so I went ahead and got ready and went to work.

Mr. HUBERT. How did you come?

Mrs. CARLIN. Bus.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you come alone?

Mrs. CARLIN. No; I didn’t. I didn’t come by bus. I came with Tammi True, another stripper. She had to come over and collect her salary. She had been fired by Ruby, and she was coming over to get her salary, so she brought my husband, and I went over to Dallas with her.

Mr. HUBERT. She had an automobile?

Mrs. CARLIN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. She was living in Fort Worth?

Mrs. CARLIN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. When had she been fired, do you know?

Mrs. CARLIN. Yes. She had been fired Thursday night.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know why she was fired?

Mrs. CARLIN. Yes. There was a question about salary.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you mean she thought she should get more?

Mrs. CARLIN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Where did you all park the automobile then?

Mrs. CARLIN. In the car lot next door.

Mr. HUBERT. Nichols’ car lot?

Mrs. CARLIN. I don’t know the name of it.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, what happened then?

Mrs. CARLIN. Then we got to the club and the doors were locked, and there was no sign of anybody being in there, so we thought----

Mr. HUBERT. About what time was it?

Mrs. CARLIN. It was about 8:30.

Mr. HUBERT. Was there a sign up saying that the club would be closed?

Mrs. CARLIN. Yes. They were closed, but it didn’t say when or how long or when it would open or anything on it. We went upstairs to the Carousel Club--I mean the Colony Club next door and waited a few minutes hoping they would open up, thinking possibly it would be late, and we would wait up there 30 or 40 minutes. And my husband checked several times to see if they were open, and I said, “Tammy, if you are broke,”--she knew how to get ahold of him, because she was broke. She didn’t have any salary.

Mr. HUBERT. You didn’t have any money?

Mrs. CARLIN. No.

Mr. HUBERT. None whatsoever?

Mrs. CARLIN. We had a little change. I think 40 or 50 cents, change. And Tammy said she didn’t want----

Mr. HUBERT. Between you and your husband?

Mrs. CARLIN. Yes. And I asked Tammy how to get ahold of Jack and she gave me his home phone, and that is when I tried to call Jack.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you reach him?