Chapter III: Part 3

Mr. MONTGOMERY. Well, he put on a black sweater. I think he changed shirts, changed shirts, and put on a black sweater. The captain asked him about something, if he wanted to wear a hat, and he said, “No.” And, of course, they handcuffed him and handcuffed Leavelle to him. Now, other than that that is all I remember about it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, as you walked out of the homicide office you went into the hallway on the third floor?

Mr. MONTGOMERY. Uh-huh.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And there were news people out there, or were there?

Mr. MONTGOMERY. I don’t recall seeing any out there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Uh-huh. How about TV people? Do you recall seeing any TV people in the hallway?

Mr. MONTGOMERY. Didn’t see any there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. You got in the hallway, then did you turn left?

Mr. MONTGOMERY. Turned left; yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And you went to the area where it is sort of a foyer near the public elevators?

Mr. MONTGOMERY. No; a prisoner elevator we went down on.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You walked down the hallway to the left, and then you turned----

Mr. MONTGOMERY. Went inside the jail elevator door.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I see.

Mr. MONTGOMERY. That is only, I guess, about--I guess about 20 foot from the homicide office to that door, or something like that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have to wait for the elevator?

Mr. MONTGOMERY. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you do?

Mr. MONTGOMERY. I unlocked the door and go inside and locked the door behind you and--on that particular occasion, I believe the elevator was waiting on us.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What happened when you got down in the basement?

Mr. MONTGOMERY. Well, we got off the elevator and walked around in front of the booking desk there. You want me to show you?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me get a--I’m going to mark this “Dallas, Texas, March 24, Detective L. D. Montgomery’s deposition. March 24, 1964, Exhibit 5004.” Now, I want to show you what has been marked as Exhibit 5004, which is a diagram of the basement area of the Police and Courts Building. Would you want to explain to us what you did there? Let me give you this pen.

Mr. MONTGOMERY. This is, of course--it shows the jail elevator. This is the elevator we came down on.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Came down in the jail elevator.

Mr. MONTGOMERY. Uh-huh, and of course, we came on the elevator here and I was of the first out of the elevator, because I was last, one of the last on, so, of course, I just stepped back here to the back and waited for all of them to get out, and when they got out I took my position right in behind Oswald. Of course, we came around to the left here [indicating]. Around to this door here [indicating]. Out--went out into the----

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, let me state for the record that you are indicating on the map that you walked around in front of the counter of the jail office.

Mr. MONTGOMERY. Uh-huh.

Mr. GRIFFIN. To the jail office doors which lead to the hallway just before you get to the ramps in the basement.

Mr. MONTGOMERY. Uh-huh.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Okay; what happened when you got to that door?

Mr. MONTGOMERY. When we got to the door, Captain Fritz told us to stop. He was going to check one more time the security.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me interrupt you here. Before you left the homicide bureau, did anybody notify you that the area was secured?

Mr. MONTGOMERY. The chief--well, they didn’t notify--Captain Fritz told me that--told all of us that he had been advised that it was secure down there and they was ready for us to come down.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he tell you who told him that?

Mr. MONTGOMERY. No; he didn’t say for sure.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where was Chief Curry at the time that you people got that notice up in the homicide bureau, if you know?

Mr. MONTGOMERY. Now, I don’t know whether--where he was at. He left there. He left our office.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long before you got that notice did Chief Curry leave?

Mr. MONTGOMERY. How long before we got the notice did he leave?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. MONTGOMERY. Oh, I would say probably 5 or 10 minutes, because I know after he left they went ahead and put the sweater and shirt on Oswald and handcuffed him and everything, so, I imagine at least 5 or 10 minutes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When you approached the jail office door, what happened?

Mr. MONTGOMERY. Captain Fritz stepped out into this door leading out to the ramp, and, of course, I didn’t--I could not hear who he was talking to or what he said, but just stepped back and told us, “Come on.”

Mr. GRIFFIN. And then what happened?

Mr. MONTGOMERY. Then we walked out the door there to--well, walked out to where--well, where the shooting happened, and we had to stop, because our car wasn’t in position.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you actually stop or did you slow up?

Mr. MONTGOMERY. No--well, we may have just slowed up, I guess. We just slowed up because it was only things like just there a second.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, as you slowed up, did you get a look at the news media?

Mr. MONTGOMERY. Didn’t get much of a look at anything.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you able to tell where the TV cameras were located?

Mr. MONTGOMERY. I assume they were over here, because all you could see was a glare of lights. You couldn’t see anything.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, over to your left as the Main Street ramp comes down, were you able to tell how many rows deep the newspaper people were?

Mr. MONTGOMERY. No; I couldn’t tell about how many rows there were.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right; now, what happened after you slowed up?

Mr. MONTGOMERY. Well, can I back up here just a second.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. MONTGOMERY. Coming out this door here--[indicating] evidently several news media over in this area here [indicating].

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, you are pointing to the area on the map----

Mr. MONTGOMERY. Be the north wall here [indicating]----

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you place “X’s” on the map where you think you saw newspaper people.

Mr. MONTGOMERY. Looked to me all along right in here [indicating] because as soon as we came out this door, well, the--this bunch here just moved in on us.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. You want to--will you put those “X’s”? You want to make a little note, “Newspapermen,” or “news”----

Mr. MONTGOMERY. Like I say, they moved in towards us and had those long-looking microphones and cramming them over there in Oswald’s face.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were there any police officers at the point where you have marked those “X’s”, holding them back?

Mr. MONTGOMERY. It could have been. I didn’t recognize them. Very well could have been.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Go ahead.

Mr. MONTGOMERY. Like I say, we came out there. They crammed those mikes over there, and we had to slow up for just a second, because they was backing this car into position. It was supposed to have been in position when we got there, but it wasn’t there, so, we had to pause, or slow down for the car to come on back. And, of course, this pause there--Captain Fritz opened the door of the car. He walked up to the door there. I don’t say he opened the door or not. I didn’t see him open the door. He just walked up to it and then I saw a blur or something and I couldn’t tell what it was. I couldn’t tell, and I heard what sounded like a shot.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And----

Mr. MONTGOMERY. And then----

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you hear anybody say anything?

Mr. MONTGOMERY. There was--just fixing to say there was just kind of a roar, you know, people hollering and everything.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Before you heard this shot, did you hear anybody say anything?

Mr. MONTGOMERY. All these newspaper reporters were hollering, “Why did you shoot the President?” And all that stuff.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Off the record.

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. GRIFFIN. Back on the record. Now, what did you say happened when you heard the shot?

Mr. MONTGOMERY. Well, Officer Graves was on Oswald’s left and I went around Officer Graves to try to help get--and, of course, when I got around there several officers had hold of him, and I grabbed him around the throat, and was applying a choke hold on him, and, of course, we drug him off to one side over on the cement there on the ramp.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What kind of struggle was he putting up?

Mr. MONTGOMERY. He was putting up a struggle--with so many officers on him, it wasn’t too much, could have--couldn’t have been too much.

First time we put him down it was right here [indicating].

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, don’t put an “X” there. Block that “X” off. Make a circle, or something. You want to put a little arrow to that and say it was Ruby?

Mr. MONTGOMERY. Right here [indicating].

Mr. GRIFFIN. Okay; now, what did you do when you got him down on the cement at that spot?

Mr. MONTGOMERY. As soon as we got him down here we made a--I didn’t--some of the other officers was making a search for the pistol, and “Blackie” Harrison was standing there and we had--held him down on the ground, and I told Ruby--not Ruby--told “Blackie” Harrison, “Better get him inside the jail office.” At which time we all picked him up and brought him inside the jail office.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you hear “Blackie” say anything either before or after the shooting, or during the struggle?

Mr. MONTGOMERY. Not that I recall, no.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Then you all took him inside the----

Mr. MONTGOMERY. Uh-huh. Brought him right in here. Laid him down on the floor just inside the door there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What was he doing at that point? Still putting up a struggle or----

Mr. MONTGOMERY. We laid him down on the floor there. He hollered and said, “You all know me. I’m Jack Ruby.”

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know how he happened to yell that?

Mr. MONTGOMERY. Do I know that?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; did you hear anybody holler anything to him at that time?

Mr. MONTGOMERY. I don’t remember hearing anything. Hollered--says, “You all know me. I’m Jack Ruby.” And then we let him down there and was looking for the pistol.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Uh-huh.

Mr. MONTGOMERY. I said--I said, “Where is the pistol at?” And Officer--Detective Graves walked up to where I was and said, “I have got the pistol right here.” And pulled it out of his pocket and showed it to me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you search him?

Mr. MONTGOMERY. I did not.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, was he searched while he was in there?

Mr. MONTGOMERY. Well, everybody’s hands were going all over him; so, I am sure they were searching.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were his pockets turned out?

Mr. MONTGOMERY. No; they didn’t actually turn them wrong side out; no, because everything would have fell out.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you do at that point?

Mr. MONTGOMERY. Well, after Graves showed us where the pistol was, of course, we knew that he didn’t have it on him then. Then Chief Batchelor walked by here. Chief Batchelor is our assistant chief of police, and I asked if he wanted Ruby--to get Ruby in the jail, and he said, “Yes.”

We then picked up Ruby and came around the corner here to the jail office. I mean the jail elevator there, and they took him upstairs to the jail, and I returned over to where Captain Fritz and Graves, Leavelle were with Oswald.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who was “they” that took him upstairs?

Mr. MONTGOMERY. Well, “Blackie” Harrison and Archer, McMillon.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was Clardy with them?

Mr. MONTGOMERY. Clardy was down there if he wasn’t with them--I just don’t know. I know there was four or five of them there that went up, Cutchshaw, Lowery.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you do after----

Mr. MONTGOMERY. Well, we went back over to where Oswald was. The ambulance came in and we--of course, they picked up the stretcher that he was on and took it to the ambulance.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Uh-huh.

Mr. MONTGOMERY. And several of the detectives got inside the ambulance and went with the ambulance to Parkland. I went over and got in Captain Fritz’ car, Beck and Captain Fritz and Brown and myself went out to Parkland Hospital.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you do when you got to Parkland Hospital?

Mr. MONTGOMERY. Well, first got there, of course, we went into the emergency room and they took Oswald back to one of the emergency treatment rooms, and we--or some captain told us to watch the doors, you know, make sure no one came in or went out other than doctors and nurses, which we did that until they transferred him up to the operating room.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, at Parkland Hospital did you hear any rumors about how Ruby got into the station.

Mr. MONTGOMERY. Well, I don’t know if I heard it out there or where.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now----

Mr. MONTGOMERY. I guess I did. I probably heard it out at Parkland.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I take it that what you are about to talk about is the first rumor that you heard?

Mr. MONTGOMERY. About the only one I ever heard.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right.

Mr. MONTGOMERY. He just walked down there as one of the officers was backing the car out. There was a car down there that had to back out the Main Street ramp. As they were backing it out, the officers that were lined up here on the ramp right here [indicating] as security, were assisting this car out, because the ramp was coming, you know, the wrong way there. And they were assisting that car out. Evidently went down there then.

Mr. GRIFFIN. There were a number of rumors that were circulating. Did you ever hear the rumor that he got in with the press pass?

Mr. MONTGOMERY. No; I--not press pass.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you hear any rumor that he got out of a police car?

Mr. MONTGOMERY. No; I hadn’t heard that one.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever hear the rumor that he came in with some TV cameras?

Mr. MONTGOMERY. Yes; I heard that he picked up one and brought it down there. That’s right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, trying to probe your memory, try to tell us exactly as you can just what you knew, or what rumors you heard at Parkland Hospital and if you don’t really have an accurate memory about it at all, I would like to know when you feel most certain that you knew something about how Ruby got into the jail.

Mr. MONTGOMERY. I don’t recall exactly when I heard the rumor; how he got down there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did you remain in Parkland Hospital?

Mr. MONTGOMERY. I guess an hour. We were there an hour.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, now, when you left, of course, you--you knew Ruby, you had known him for some time, so, when you left the jail, of course you knew who the guy was who had shot Oswald?

Mr. MONTGOMERY. Uh-huh.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, when you got out to Parkland Hospital, do you remember anybody who was out there asking questions about any other officers, or asking questions about who it was that shot Oswald?

Mr. MONTGOMERY. No; I don’t remember anybody asking me anything about it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you hear conversation out at Parkland Hospital that would have identified Ruby as the person who shot Oswald?

Mr. MONTGOMERY. No; I didn’t hear anybody out there saying, you know, that Ruby shot Oswald.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you talk to any reserve officers out there at Parkland Hospital?

Mr. MONTGOMERY. No; I don’t believe I did.

Mr. GRIFFIN. As you took Oswald out to Parkland Hospital, was it generally known among all the people who were escorting Oswald to Parkland that Ruby had been the guy?

Mr. MONTGOMERY. Well, of course, I was in the car with Captain Fritz, Beck, and Brown, and as far as any ambulance, where Oswald was, I don’t know if it----

Mr. GRIFFIN. All the people in your car knew it was Ruby?

Mr. MONTGOMERY. No; Captain Fritz didn’t know who it was. They didn’t know each other.

Mr. GRIFFIN. He knew the name of the man who had shot Oswald was Ruby at that time, didn’t he?

Mr. MONTGOMERY. Yes, he knew that. We discussed it there in the car that--going out to the hospital--that Jack Ruby shot him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, you took Oswald into Parkland Hospital--were there people asking you who shot him?

Mr. MONTGOMERY. No, because I didn’t go in with the body--I say, “the body”--Oswald. Of course when the ambulance--beat us to the hospital.

Mr. GRIFFIN. As you people went into the hospital, were there people asking you who shot----

Mr. MONTGOMERY. People doing a lot of talking. I don’t know if they were asking questions or what, because we weren’t paying a lot of attention to them.

Mr. GRIFFIN. If somebody had asked you who shot Oswald, might you have said Ruby did it?

Mr. MONTGOMERY. No; I wouldn’t have.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I might explain to you what I am getting at. We know that somewhere along the line somebody was out at Parkland Hospital who was a newspaperman at----

Mr. MONTGOMERY. Uh-huh.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Learned that Ruby was the person. This started a rumor to the effect that his informant must have had something to do with it, and I am really asking you this question to see if it isn’t possible that you guys, as you guys got out to Parkland, somebody had said Ruby was the guy and just by dropping the words, you know, that would spread like wildfire out there.

Mr. MONTGOMERY. No; I didn’t say anything about who it was that done the shooting, out there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What time did you arrive back at the homicide bureau?

Mr. MONTGOMERY. What time?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. MONTGOMERY. Approximately 1:30.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And when you got back to the homicide bureau, do you remember having any conversation with anybody about how Ruby got into the building?

Mr. MONTGOMERY. Well, no; I didn’t talk to anybody. Just, you know--I guess we was all standing out asking each other how in the world did he get in.

Mr. GRIFFIN. After Ruby shot Oswald on the 24th, did you see Ruby at any time the rest of that day?

Mr. MONTGOMERY. Yes, sir; we brought him down for the captain to talk to.

Mr. GRIFFIN. About what time was that?

Mr. MONTGOMERY. Probably around 2, because we had been there at the hospital--I mean office, about 30 minutes, went up and brought him down.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did he stay down here?

Mr. MONTGOMERY. I didn’t carry him back, so, I don’t know for sure.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you present during any of that interrogation?

Mr. MONTGOMERY. Not with Ruby; no.

Mr. GRIFFIN. At the time you brought him down, did you know how Ruby got into the basement or had you been told?

Mr. MONTGOMERY. I still don’t know how he got down there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But, had you heard, put it this way, had you heard at that point that Ruby had told somebody how he got into the basement?

Mr. MONTGOMERY. I don’t think so. I don’t think I would have been aware of it then.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you remain in the office with Ruby and Fritz for any length of time?

Mr. MONTGOMERY. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Who brought Ruby down with you?

Mr. MONTGOMERY. Let’s see, it was Detectives Boyd and Hall. They sat in on the interrogation there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When you got up to see Ruby, how was Ruby dressed?

Mr. MONTGOMERY. Up in the jail?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. MONTGOMERY. He had on his shirt, and his skivvies.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And what other officers were there?

Mr. MONTGOMERY. I can’t say for sure but it seems like Archer was there, but I couldn’t say for sure. I don’t know. There was an FBI agent there, too.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know which agent that was?

Mr. MONTGOMERY. Oh, Agent Hall?

Mr. GRIFFIN. I think--I don’t--you are giving your answer. I think you are right.

Mr. MONTGOMERY. I think that is who it was. I don’t know if they have got an agent named Hall, but seemed to me like that is what it was.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was Sergeant Dean there?

Mr. MONTGOMERY. Well, there again, I couldn’t say, “yea or nay,” because I don’t recall who was there exactly. I remember an FBI agent there, and Archer--I believe Archer was there. Dean could have been there. He could have been in there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is it your best recollection that there was more than one? That there was somebody else in that cell there besides Hall, Ruby, and Archer?

Mr. MONTGOMERY. I believe there was. I believe there was a jail guard there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Anybody else?

Mr. MONTGOMERY. No, but----

Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you indicating that you just don’t remember?

Mr. MONTGOMERY. I just don’t remember for sure how many was in there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was anything said to you by any of the people with Ruby when you went up to the jail to get him?

Mr. MONTGOMERY. No; they didn’t say anything to me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did they pass on any information about anything Ruby had said?

Mr. MONTGOMERY. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. No; did you people talk at all with Ruby as you brought him downstairs?

Mr. MONTGOMERY. I’m sure we did, and I am trying to remember what we said. Let’s see.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, now, you knew Ruby. Did you try to get him to open up on the way down?

Mr. MONTGOMERY. No; I didn’t. Usually when we are bringing a prisoner down I don’t try to talk to them too much. I don’t want to upset anything, you know, any plans he has to talk to him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did Captain Fritz know that you were acquainted with Ruby?

Mr. MONTGOMERY. He knew when I told him; yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When did you tell him that?

Mr. MONTGOMERY. As we was going out to Parkland Hospital. He kept saying, “Who is Jack Ruby?” And I told him, “He is a man that runs the Club Vegas out on Oak Lawn.”

Asked me did I know him, I said, “Yes; I used to have a district for about 4 years out there.”

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you feel that if you would talk to Ruby, that Ruby might have been willing to give you any information?

Mr. MONTGOMERY. No; because Ruby and I, first of all, weren’t that close or anything. As a matter of fact, I don’t guess he even remembers my name or face, either.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Uh-huh.

Mr. MONTGOMERY. But he was used to seeing officers come in his place. I don’t imagine he would remember one any more than others--another.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did any of the officers up there at the jail cell with Ruby when you went up there to get him come down on the elevator with you?

Mr. MONTGOMERY. I believe Hall, FBI Agent Hall.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And did Hall go into Captain Fritz’ office?

Mr. MONTGOMERY. Now, our Detective Hall rather than Agent Hall did. I just don’t know, because I couldn’t say for sure.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who do you remember being in Fritz’ office the first time, or--on this occasion when Ruby was brought down by you?

Mr. MONTGOMERY. Well, I know that Captain Fritz, Ruby, and, of course, Detectives Hall and Boyd--Detective M. G. Hall. I know they were there for sure, and who else was there I couldn’t swear, because I just saw them walk up to the door to Captain Fritz’ office. And they went in, of course, the blinds were drawn in Fritz’ office, so, I couldn’t see who was in there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you do after they took Ruby into Fritz’ office?

Mr. MONTGOMERY. Well, I sat down and answered some more of them phone calls.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did you do that?

Mr. MONTGOMERY. I don’t recall anything outstanding from then on. I know I didn’t get off until, have to look at my notebook again. Yes; seemed to me about 10.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you take Ruby back upstairs?

Mr. MONTGOMERY. No; I didn’t take him back upstairs.

Mr. GRIFFIN. No?

Mr. MONTGOMERY. No; I didn’t take him back upstairs.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see him taken back upstairs?

Mr. MONTGOMERY. No; I, evidently, was in the squad room at the time he was taken back.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see Ruby brought back down a second time?

Mr. MONTGOMERY. No; I didn’t, not that day; no.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you in the homicide bureau the entire time?

Mr. MONTGOMERY. In and out.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you out for any period as long as 10 or 15 minutes?

Mr. MONTGOMERY. Well, I talked to one witness back for, I guess for about 20 or 30 minutes. The way our office is set up they could have carried him in and taken him back out without some of them sitting back in the squad room ever seeing him come in or go out.

Mr. GRIFFIN. This first occasion when you brought Ruby down, was Agent Sorrels of the Secret Service in Fritz’ office?

Mr. MONTGOMERY. I couldn’t say for sure, because those blinds were drawn to the captain’s office, and I couldn’t see who all was in there. I walked up to the door. I could see Captain Fritz, and Hall and Boyd stepped on inside.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Okay. Go ahead.

Mr. MONTGOMERY. At 10:30--I left at 10:30 Sunday night.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Prior to 10:30, I take it you answered; you didn’t see Ruby again?

Mr. MONTGOMERY. Not that Sunday; no.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Did you talk--did you see Archer again on that Sunday?

Mr. MONTGOMERY. Archer and them, let’s see, were in our office, when we got back from the hospital--Archer and Harrison, Cutchshaw and Lowery were all in the office when we got back.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there any discussion in there about how Ruby got into the basement?

Mr. MONTGOMERY. I think there was some--somebody say, “How did he get down here?”

Mr. GRIFFIN. And what was said?

Mr. MONTGOMERY. Well, of course, nobody knew for sure. Said, “Well, no telling how he got in.”

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see Archer after that other than when you saw him up in the jail cell?

Mr. MONTGOMERY. Not that day. I don’t believe Archer was in our office. I know Harrison and Cutchshaw and Lowery were in there, and McMillon was upstairs with Archer, because I remember now in the scuffle down here in apprehending Jack Ruby, McMillon lost his hat, and, of course, I thought it was Ruby’s hat, so, I was hanging onto it, you know, and on the way to Parkland I looked inside and T. D. McMillon’s initials were in it, so, upon our arrival back from Parkland Hospital to the office, I went down to McMillon’s office and left his hat.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you talk with Harrison at all about how Ruby got in, Blackie Harrison?

Mr. MONTGOMERY. I don’t believe I did.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you talk with Lowery at all about it?

Mr. MONTGOMERY. Well, like I say, we were all back there in that squad room, and somebody said, “How did he get down there?” And I don’t know who said--well, I don’t know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Didn’t Lowery say at that point that he thought Ruby pushed a TV camera in?

Mr. MONTGOMERY. I couldn’t swear that he did or didn’t.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did you, Cutchshaw, Lowery, and Harrison remain in the homicide office?

Mr. MONTGOMERY. Didn’t stay there but just a few minutes. I know when we left they were in there writing out a report of some kind. Didn’t even ask them what they was writing. Sitting there writing something. Anyway, after I talked to them just as--just a second, I went back to where Captain Fritz was, and that was when they sent us back upstairs to get Ruby.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Hall, Harrison, Cutchshaw and Lowery are all from the juvenile bureau?

Mr. MONTGOMERY. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you talk with Dean at all on Sunday after the----

Mr. MONTGOMERY. Gene?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Dean. Officer Dean.

Mr. MONTGOMERY. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you talk with Officer McMillon at all after the shooting?

Mr. MONTGOMERY. Seemed like I talked to him later on that night and told him about his hat.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall him telling you anything about how Ruby got in?

Mr. MONTGOMERY. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, you knew that McMillon had been up there in this jail cell with Ruby?

Mr. MONTGOMERY. Uh-huh.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ask him anything about what Ruby was saying?

Mr. MONTGOMERY. No; I didn’t.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he tell you anything about what Ruby was saying?

Mr. MONTGOMERY. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about Archer? Did you see him?

Mr. MONTGOMERY. I don’t believe--I don’t recall seeing Archer any more after they left the----

Mr. GRIFFIN. Uh-huh.

Mr. MONTGOMERY. Jail.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Okay. I want you to take the pen back from me.

Mr. MONTGOMERY. All right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And I want to mark these two documents for identification.

Mr. MONTGOMERY. Uh-huh.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And I am going to mark this one Exhibit 5005, and the second one Exhibit 5006.

Mr. MONTGOMERY. Uh-huh.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And each of them, “Dallas, Texas, Detective Montgomery’s deposition. 3-24-64”. These are copies of FBI reports?

Mr. MONTGOMERY. Uh-huh.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And they represent, of course----

Mr. MONTGOMERY. Their interview with me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Their interview with you; yes. Now, I am going to ask you to look at 5005. This purports to be an interview that was made on December 4, 1963.

Mr. MONTGOMERY. Uh-huh.

Mr. GRIFFIN. By James Kennedy and Leo Robertson of the----

Mr. MONTGOMERY. With who?

Mr. GRIFFIN. With you.

Mr. MONTGOMERY. I didn’t talk to no two. I talked to one. I talked to Mr. Bookhout and one other agent is all. Let’s see. Maybe I had better read this before I start talking. Let’s see.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Look it over and tell me if you remember that interview?

Mr. MONTGOMERY. “Stated they had known Ruby for several years.” That must mean “he.”

Mr. GRIFFIN. Tell you what. Let’s take a break here and let Officer Montgomery read this over, and then I want to know whether you feel that there should be any additions or corrections made in it.

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. GRIFFIN. I will hand you what has been marked as Exhibit 5005 and 5006. Have you had a chance to look those over, Mr. Montgomery?

Mr. MONTGOMERY. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is there anything you want to add to those statements that you haven’t told us already?

Mr. MONTGOMERY. No; not that I know of.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you want to make any corrections in those statements, in light of what you have said today?

Mr. MONTGOMERY. Well, on this one right here, Mr. Griffin, it said, “He states they had known Ruby for several years.” I don’t know who “they” would be. See on that second paragraph where it says, “He stated they----”

Mr. GRIFFIN. You want to change that to “he”?

Mr. MONTGOMERY. Uh-huh. That is the only thing I see in there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Okay. Let me look it over for just a second. I notice in here that you stated that you felt that you hadn’t seen Ruby for at least 2 years prior to the time of the shooting.

Mr. MONTGOMERY. That is what I was thinking about. Anywhere from a year, year and a half, to 2 years.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Your best recollection is for a year, or year and a half?

Mr. MONTGOMERY. Probably was a year and a half. My partner--after I gave that to the agent there, this partner advised me that one night we were driving down Commerce Street and Jack pulled up beside of us and spoke to us in his car. I don’t recall seeing him, but my partner told me he--that we had seen him there. That shouldn’t have been too long before all this happened. I guess two or three----

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who was your partner that told you that?

Mr. MONTGOMERY. It was Mr. Johnson.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What’s his first name?

Mr. MONTGOMERY. Marvin Johnson, but I don’t recall seeing Ruby then, at that time.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You stated in here, I think it is 5006--at least it’s reported that as you “brought Oswald down into the jail area the two officers with Oswald between them and Montgomery hesitated before going into this corridor while Capt. J. W. Fritz checked with Chief----to see if the area was clear.” Agent Bookhout hasn’t indicated here what chief that was. Are you able to fill in that blank?

Mr. MONTGOMERY. Well, actually what that was was I told him, “Chief,” say who did the captain talk to when he stepped out that door. I couldn’t see. I just told him I thought it was the chief. I didn’t know. I didn’t--maybe it wasn’t even a chief that he talked to. It was some lieutenant out there that told him, that is why I say at that particular time I was hesitant on this. This “chief” business then.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have anything else that you want to tell us that we haven’t already covered that you think might be of use to the Commission?

Mr. MONTGOMERY. Oh, well, I don’t know of anything. Looks like you all have covered it pretty well, and, of course, these reports here have it, too. One thing they say is not in here either. It is not--I haven’t told you yet, is when we had Ruby down on the floor inside the jail office there, that while we had him down and was holding him on the floor there he said he hoped he killed the s.o.b.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You heard him say that?

Mr. MONTGOMERY. Yes; of course, there were other officers that heard it, too. We was all standing right there. That is the one thing that wasn’t in this report here. I don’t recall seeing it, do you?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you testify in the Jack Ruby trial?

Mr. MONTGOMERY. No; I never did testify.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I think maybe one last thing. If you would look over this map, now, and if you feel that the marks that we’ve put on here are accurate on the basis of what we have done before, I would like you to sign it.

Mr. MONTGOMERY. Right here, let me put “news media,” right below that so that I will know as well as someone else might know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Okay. Sign it, if you would.

Mr. MONTGOMERY. Over here?

Mr. GRIFFIN. That would be fine.

Mr. MONTGOMERY. You want me to date it or anything?

Mr. GRIFFIN. No; that’s all right. We have got it on the record here. “The reporter will say witness signs an exhibit.”

All right. Okay. That concludes our interview, and thank you.

TESTIMONY OF THOMAS DONALD McMILLON

The testimony of Thomas Donald McMillon was taken at 10:30 a.m., on March 25, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Burt W. Griffin, assistant counsel of the President’s Commission.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How are you? Sit down over here, Tom. I want to explain to you what we are doing here. Like I said, my name is Burt Griffin and I am a member of the advisory staff to the General Counsel of the President’s Commission investigating the assassination of President Kennedy. This Commission has been set up by virtue of an order of President Johnson, Executive Order 11130, dated November 29, 1963, and also under Joint Resolution of Congress 137. Pursuant to these documents, there have been a series of rules of procedure enacted, and pursuant to those rules of procedure, I have been authorized to take a sworn deposition from Officer McMillon here. I want to say initially that the general nature of the Commission’s inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate, report upon the facts that relate to the assassination of President Kennedy, also, of course, the subsequent death of Lee Harvey Oswald. As far as you are concerned, Mr. McMillon, we are primarily concerned here with the death of Oswald; although, if there is any other information that you have that you think would be pertinent to this inquiry, we would certainly appreciate your coming forward with it. Now, we have asked you to come here today through a general request, which was made by the General Counsel of the President’s Commission, addressed in a letter to Chief Curry. Actually, under the rules adopted by the Commission, you are entitled to have a 3-day written notice of any appearance for this purpose, and, however, there is also a provision that you may waive this written notice if you want to, and I ask you right now if you would prefer to have us give you a written notice.

Mr. McMILLON. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Or do you want to waive it?

Mr. McMILLON. No; I will waive that. It is okay.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, you are also permitted to be represented by counsel here, and I assume, since you haven’t come with an attorney, that it is your desire not to have one, but if you do desire one, tell me at this point. Tell me.

Mr. McMILLON. I don’t feel like I need an attorney here present now, but I want to reserve the right to have counsel if I feel like I need it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Certainly you have that right at that time, and I mean to cover that. I also mean to tell you that this is not--we are not involved in a trial, we have no authority to prosecute anybody for any crime. All of that is to be handled by the State of Texas. The only crime that can be committed in connection with this investigation is perjury, and it is very, very important that we find out all of the facts that surround this and find them out truthfully. This investigation is more important, I think, than anybody can really realize to the national security, and if there is any way that I can impress upon you the importance of this, that our interest is getting the truth for this purpose and our interest is not in going out and trying to put anybody in jail or anything like that.

Mr. McMILLON. All right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. If you are willing to be sworn to testify, I would appreciate your raising your right hand.

Mr. McMILLON. Right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth?

Mr. McMILLON. I do.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Will you give us your full name?

Mr. McMILLON. Thomas Donald McMillon. It is [spelling] M-c-M-i-l-l-o-n.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When were you born?

Mr. McMILLON. One April 1935.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where do you live now?

Mr. McMILLON. 4929 Reiger Street, Apartment 109.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that Dallas?

Mr. McMILLON. Dallas, Tex.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. What is your occupation?

Mr. McMILLON. I am a police officer for the city of Dallas, Tex.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you in any particular division?

Mr. McMILLON. Yes; I am a detective assigned to the auto theft investigation bureau.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And do you have any particular rank?

Mr. McMILLON. Detective.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long have you been in the auto theft bureau?

Mr. McMILLON. Nearly 11 months.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you been in any other bureaus?

Mr. McMILLON. Patrol division prior to that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And when you were in the patrol division, whom did you work under?

Mr. McMILLON. My last captain of patrol was Capt. C. E. Talbert, I believe it is, Talbert.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Talbert. And, at that time, whose direct supervision were you under?

Mr. McMILLON. My last sergeant was Sgt. H. A. Amos.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever work under Sergeant Dean?

Mr. McMILLON. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When did you work under Sergeant Dean?

Mr. McMILLON. The exact dates, I don’t recall, but I did work the downtown area while he was the supervisor in that area, in that zone.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. And in connection with that employment, did you become acquainted with Jack Ruby?

Mr. McMILLON. I have seen Jack in the downtown area. I believe that I have probably answered calls to this Carousel Club down here. I knew him prior to that, not personally, but I had answered calls at the Vegas Club when he ran that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. Do you recall when it was that you worked out at the Vegas Club area?

Mr. McMILLON. Some in 1957 and probably 1958. I am not exactly sure on those dates, but it should have been in that time.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know Eva Grant when you were out there in the Vegas Club area?

Mr. McMILLON. I have seen her. I don’t know her personally. I believe I have seen her in the Vegas Club.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about Pauline Hall?

Mr. McMILLON. No. I don’t know Pauline Hall.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, when you worked the downtown area, did you know George Senator?

Mr. McMILLON. I don’t know George Senator.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, did you know the bartender at the Carousel Club?

Mr. McMILLON. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When was the last time that you worked the downtown area?

Mr. McMILLON. Most all of my time in patrol was spent, or the majority of it, was spent in the downtown area. I believe about 8 or 9 or maybe 10 months before I was promoted to a detective, I worked an area of the downtown--one of the downtown districts. I believe in August of 1962, the first of August 1962, I went to what we refer to kindly of a South Dallas beat. Actually, it is on the edge of downtown.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Uh-huh.

Mr. McMILLON. And most of my time spent on patrol was downtown or in the downtown area or near by.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you on duty Friday, November 22?

Mr. McMILLON. No, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where were you at the time you learned that President Kennedy had been shot?

Mr. McMILLON. Home, in bed, asleep.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, you weren’t sleeping. Did somebody wake you up to tell you that the President had been shot? Did somebody wake you up?

Mr. McMILLON. Yes. Phone call.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who called you?

Mr. McMILLON. A friend of mine did.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you do?

Mr. McMILLON. He came to my house.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who was that?

Mr. McMILLON. Mickey Fuller.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you stay home all day Friday?

Mr. McMILLON. Except probably maybe to go out to eat. I was there most of the day.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you married?

Mr. McMILLON. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you report--did you report for work on Friday?

Mr. McMILLON. No, no.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was that your regular day off?

Mr. McMILLON. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about Saturday?

Mr. McMILLON. I reported at 7 a.m. Saturday.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you go down to the police department at any time on Friday?

Mr. McMILLON. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall, did you visit the scene, did you visit the School Book Depository or any particular places on the 22d, other than your home, that you can recall?

Mr. McMILLON. No; I didn’t go down near that Depository----

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right.

Mr. McMILLON. Or down near the police station or anything.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Uh-huh. Did you see anything on the 22d that might be of value to the Commission?

Mr. McMILLON. The only thing that I saw was what events that I saw on television.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, on the 23d, when you arrived at work, where did you go?

Mr. McMILLON. To the auto theft bureau.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you work in the auto theft bureau all day Saturday?

Mr. McMILLON. Yes; until 3 p.m.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What I mean to say is, did you go out of the building?

Mr. McMILLON. I don’t recall if I did or not. Maybe I might have gone out for coffee. It seemed to me like I had lunch in the locker room that day. I am not sure.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that on the third floor of the police department building?

Mr. McMILLON. The locker room?

Mr. GRIFFIN. No, no; the auto theft bureau.

Mr. McMILLON. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see anybody in the police department that day who was--who you recognized as not being a police officer or a newsman or somebody who was there visiting your department on official business?

Mr. McMILLON. Well, I don’t know how to answer that. There were a lot of people there. Some of them were in and out. People at first started out during that day coming to our office to get automobiles released from the pound.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. McMILLON. People in and out like that, and I saw a number of people that I didn’t know, and I didn’t see identification on them and didn’t recognize them as probably being newsmen or with the press or some news media.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was your office in the auto theft bureau used by the news people for any purposes?

Mr. McMILLON. Yes. They used our phones quite often.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did this cause you problems?

Mr. McMILLON. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you give some idea of what kind of problems these news people were causing you?

Mr. McMILLON. Well, our phones were pretty well tied up. There seemed to be quite a commotion in and around and about the office. It made it difficult to work.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Uh-huh. Did you people attempt to make any effort to get these news people out?

Mr. McMILLON. We were cooperative with them. If they asked to use a phone and if there was a phone available, we extended them every courtesy along that line.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Uh-huh. Did you see Jack Ruby at any time on Friday or Saturday?

Mr. McMILLON. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And, as I understand, you left work on Saturday about 3 in the afternoon?

Mr. McMILLON. Right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When you left work on Saturday, did you have any idea that Lee Harvey Oswald would be moved from the county jail the next day--to the county jail the next day?

Mr. McMILLON. No. I may or may not have heard any rumors, I don’t remember, but I didn’t know when he would be moved. I had heard some rumors, I believe, but I didn’t know when he would be moved.

Mr. GRIFFIN. After work that night, did you have any occasion to be around the police department?

Mr. McMILLON. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you do Saturday night?

Mr. McMILLON. I don’t recall. The best I remember, it seemed to me like I stayed home and watched television. I may have gone out, but I think I stayed home.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What time did you report for work on Sunday morning?

Mr. McMILLON. 7 a.m.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember where you parked your car Sunday morning?

Mr. McMILLON. I am sure it is the same parking lot that I always park on. I park on a pay lot at the corner of Main and Pearl.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When you parked, which corner did you park on?

Mr. McMILLON. It would be the southeast corner of Main and Pearl.

Mr. GRIFFIN. That is actually between Main and Commerce, isn’t it?

Mr. McMILLON. Huh-uh. Well, you might consider it that way. Can I use some paper here to show you what I mean?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. Take this.

Mr. McMILLON. Okay. This would be Pearl Expressway, the directions, your north and south.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. McMILLON. Main Street running--okay. This was actually the way the streets were running.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. McMILLON. Main running east and west, Commerce running east and west, and, of course, here is Pearl going south.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. On here, will you mark a mark?

Mr. McMILLON. Right over here, right in here is where I parked my car, this parking lot.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Okay. Where you just placed an “X”? I am going to mark this, if I can, mark this “Dallas, Tex., Detective T. D. McMillon.” That is [spelling] M-i-l-l-o-n, right?

Mr. McMILLON. Right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. 3-25-64, Exhibit 5015. At the time you arrived for work, was there a police officer stationed at the corner of Main and Pearl?

Mr. McMILLON. I don’t recall whether there was or wasn’t.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, from that parking lot, Mr. McMillon, how did you get into the police department? Did you walk down Main or Commerce?

Mr. McMILLON. Down Main.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And did you--how did you go, in the Main Street ramp?

Mr. McMILLON. No. I probably took the first floor elevator, elevator, first floor. I usually do. That particular day, I recall I walked down this ramp, but I don’t recall whether I took the steps and went up to the first floor and went up the elevator. That is the way I usually go in.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You go into the city hall, as opposed to the municipal building, there is a set of steps going up into the police building?

Mr. McMILLON. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And then, when you arrived, were there any people congregated around the Main Street ramp?

Mr. McMILLON. Not that I recall. I don’t know if there was or not. I don’t recall there being any there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were there any other cars parked in the parking lot when you arrived?

Mr. McMILLON. Yes; I am sure there was. I don’t know whose or which ones.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you recognize Jack Ruby’s car?

Mr. McMILLON. I haven’t seen Jack’s car.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you do when you got up to the auto theft bureau?

Mr. McMILLON. I don’t know. Probably the first thing I did, probably take my coat off and go get a cup of coffee, bring it back out of the machine. That is my normal habit or routine.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is there a machine up on the third floor?

Mr. McMILLON. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is it just in the auto theft bureau or is it accessible?

Mr. McMILLON. No. There is a little lounge that is accessible to the public.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And do the police officers normally take a coffee break in there?

Mr. McMILLON. Not normally, but you may occasionally see some in there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where do the police officers normally go?

Mr. McMILLON. Martin’s or the Majestic. Of course, Martin’s wouldn’t be open on Sunday, I don’t think. Wherever you can go. You might possibly go to the locker room, if you wanted to. There is a coffee machine down there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Uh-huh. Do you remember what you did up until the time that you were asked to go down into the basement?

Mr. McMILLON. I tried to work on some of my cases, the best I could. I don’t remember whether I was trying to contact some complainants by phone or whether I had checked some prisoners out of the jail, was working out on prisoners, exactly what I was doing. I know I was working in the office when Lieutenant Smart came through and said, “Don’t anybody leave.”

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember any of the cases that you worked on that day?

Mr. McMILLON. Huh-uh.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you busy answering telephone calls from people?

Mr. McMILLON. Yes; I answered some phone calls from people. Yes, sir; I sure did.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you get any phone calls in connection with the murder of the President?

Mr. McMILLON. Not that I recall.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You didn’t get any of these crank calls?

Mr. McMILLON. No; I didn’t take any crank calls. I sure didn’t.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When you got up there, what other officers were on duty in the auto theft bureau?

Mr. McMILLON. Well, now, let’s see. I recall I was on duty, Lieutenant Smart, Detective Clardy. That is my partner. Detective Rivers was working at the desk, what we call the desk. I was working in the auto theft. He is the one that was making out the assignments.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was it Clardy?

Mr. McMILLON. No; it wasn’t Clardy.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who was it?

Mr. McMILLON. Ed Rivers. Archer and Greeson were on duty.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How do you spell that?

Mr. McMILLON. I believe that boy spells it [spelling] G-r-e-e-s-o-n, and then I don’t recall if they were there, but they were on duty this day. Detective Watson, Detective Dawson, and I don’t remember who the others were.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, when you arrived for duty, did you know that Jack Ruby was--did you know that Lee Oswald might be moved that day?

Mr. McMILLON. No. I personally felt that he might, but I didn’t know that he would.