Chapter XXXI: Part 31

Mr. HUBERT. Did you have the combination of the safe?

Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir; Mr. Ruby and Andy was the only ones who had the combination.

Mr. GRIFFIN. After he bought this safe did he use it to keep his money in?

Mr. CRAFARD. To my knowledge he only used it for the night receipts from the Carousel Club and Andy when he checked out if Jack wasn’t there, the safe had a compartment in the bottom they claimed was a burglarproof compartment in the bottom, had an envelope slot in it and he, would drop an envelope with the money in it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What would be done with the money at the end of the night? What would he do with the money?

Mr. CRAFARD. The next day Jack would take the money out and count it up.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What would he do with it?

Mr. CRAFARD. He would put it in his pocket and go to the bank.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he bank some place?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did he bank?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe, it was the First National, but I am not positive of that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you actually go with him to the bank when he----

Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir; not when he was banking the deposits.

Mr. GRIFFIN. At the end of, on a typical week night, about how much money would he have left, would he have at the end of the night?

Mr. CRAFARD. Oh, a typical night would maybe be anywhere from a $100 to $500 or $600.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Of course, he had more business on the weekends than he had during the week, didn’t he?

Mr. CRAFARD. Usually; yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Just taking the nights Monday through Thursday, how much would he typically have on one of those nights?

Mr. CRAFARD. Between $100 and $300, I would say.

Mr. HUBERT. That is gross, isn’t it?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. On a weekend night, on a Friday, Saturday or Sunday night how much would he take in?

Mr. CRAFARD. Anywhere from $100 to maybe $1,000. Depending on the type of what was doing there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you there any nights that he took in $1,000?

Mr. CRAFARD. The most I have ever known him to take in was one weekend, Friday and Saturday night, I believe it was $1,400 for the 2 nights.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you happen to know that?

Mr. CRAFARD. I would usually be around when they counted the money up, and that weekend, I believe Sunday we was talking and Andy said something about that is the most money they took in any weekend for the last year or something like that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he deal with any particular distributor of beer?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What was the company that----

Mr. CRAFARD. He dealt with the different companies, one being the Pearl Beer, each different brand of beer had different distributors.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Had its own distributors?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about liquor, did he buy hard liquor?

Mr. CRAFARD. No, there was no hard liquor sold in the club.

Mr. GRIFFIN. So his only purchases were beer?

Mr. CRAFARD. Beer, coke and champagne.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who did he buy that from?

Mr. CRAFARD. Most of that was bought to my knowledge from the liquor store on the corner. I believe it was Segalis.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How much champagne would he stock any one time?

Mr. CRAFARD. When he bought champagne he would usually buy a case of 12 bottles and it would usually average about two cases a week.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did they serve food?

Mr. CRAFARD. The only food we served was pizzas.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was pizzas?

Mr. CRAFARD. Pizzas.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were those made at the Carousel or were they sent out from those----

Mr. CRAFARD. We got those from Palumbo’s Pizza House. All you had to do was stick them in a warmer and warm them up.

Mr. GRIFFIN. So his only expenses--tell me if you can think of any other expenses besides the one I recite here. He had the expenses of his entertainers, he had expenses for you and Andy Armstrong, he had rent and heat and light, and he had beer and pizza. Did he have any other expenses that you can think of?

Mr. CRAFARD. Not that I would say would be Carousel business expenses, no. He had a lot of sinking money into things all the time.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What sort of things were those?

Mr. CRAFARD. Well, he was putting quite a bit of money into this twist board exerciser that he was promoting.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he have any other promotions besides the twist board while you were with him?

Mr. CRAFARD. Not that I recall. He would buy records and he had to buy flashbulbs and film for the camera. He took Polaroid pictures every night, three of them each night.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Three Polaroid pictures each night?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; we had one girl who was, I believe it was Tammi True, would get on the stage and she would get a guy up there with her on the stage and take a picture of them and give the picture of the man, that was the only photograph taken and that would go right to the man.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, what other business, you say he was always sinking money into things.

Mr. CRAFARD. Well, he had the Vegas Club and from what I understand he was taking money from the Vegas Club to keep the Carousel Club from what I understood which I never could figure out.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Why couldn’t you figure that out?

Mr. CRAFARD. Well, we always made enough to clear our bills, the Carousel made enough to clear the bills.

Mr. GRIFFIN. By the bills you include the salaries of the entertainers?

Mr. CRAFARD. Most of that, yes. He was paying pretty good salaries. These girls got anywhere from $300 to $400, maybe $400, $500 a week for their entertaining.

Mr. GRIFFIN. They all didn’t get that much.

Mr. CRAFARD. The entertainers, got anywhere from $300 to $500, $600 average, different.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was that just the featured stripper or was that each stripper?

Mr. CRAFARD. Jada was there, I believe, she was drawing $700 a month and the other girls I think was drawing between $300 and $500, somewhere between $300 and $500.

Mr. GRIFFIN. A month?

Mr. CRAFARD. A month.

Mr. GRIFFIN. A month. How about “Little” Lynn when she came to work there, was she getting paid the same as the rest of them?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe so, I am not sure. I don’t know what her wages were, I am not sure, positive about it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Other than the twist boards and the Carousel and the Vegas Club what other things was Jack putting money into?

Mr. CRAFARD. To my knowledge that is all he had. He never seemed to have any. He always claimed he was going broke all the time.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was he actually selling these twist boards?

Mr. CRAFARD. He had never had made any sales while I was with him.

Mr. HUBERT. Before you get into this, let me finish up this financial operation. I don’t think you have mentioned what the waitresses got.

Mr. CRAFARD. The waitresses worked on tips.

Mr. HUBERT. Purely? There was no expense in connection with that?

Mr. CRAFARD. To my knowledge, no.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know if Armstrong got any salary?

Mr. CRAFARD. He got a salary.

Mr. HUBERT. How much was it?

Mr. CRAFARD. I am not sure. I think he was drawing about $300 a month, I am not sure.

Mr. HUBERT. Then there was a man Howard, the maintenance man.

Mr. CRAFARD. Howard just got paid, whenever he worked he would get paid, I think a dollar an hour. He didn’t work all the time. He might only get 4 or 5 hours a week.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How much would you estimate in a typical week Ruby took in?

Mr. CRAFARD. In a typical week it would be anywhere from one to three thousand.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know where these twist boards were manufactured?

Mr. CRAFARD. They were manufactured in Houston--Fort Worth, I mean.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What was the name of the company?

Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t recall the name of the company. I had it wrote down in my notebook but I don’t recall the name of it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember the name of a company called Plastolite Engineering?

Mr. CRAFARD. I remember something about it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But that wasn’t the name of the company that was manufacturing the twist boards?

Mr. CRAFARD. It might have been, I am not sure.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How was Jack trying to sell these twist boards?

Mr. CRAFARD. Like I say, he promoted them out at the fair--State Fair, and he had a couple of different stores promoting them, and he had----

Mr. GRIFFIN. You mean they would be on display some place?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. And there was some set up, where some of the strippers went out to one place and done the twist on these twist exercisers.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But to your knowledge he never made a sale on one?

Mr. CRAFARD. Not to my knowledge.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How much would one cost, if you wanted to buy it?

Mr. CRAFARD. The way he was selling them I believe it was two something. They were selling them in Texas but it was Penney’s, I believe it was Penney’s store was selling them.

Mr. GRIFFIN. In Texas, you mean in Dallas?

Mr. CRAFARD. In Dallas. They were selling them for $3.95 apiece, I think it was and he was selling his for $2.95 apiece.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack have anybody else associated with him in these twist boards?

Mr. CRAFARD. He was trying to get his one brother to do something with them, and I believe it was in Chicago.

Mr. GRIFFIN. That would have been Hyman?

Mr. CRAFARD. How is that?

Mr. GRIFFIN. That would have been Hyman in Chicago?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe it was “Hy,” yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How do you know he was trying to get “Hy” interested in it?

Mr. CRAFARD. He had me send some to him.

Mr. HUBERT. I gather from what you have testified to that you have been around carnivals and you have met a lot of people, and also I think you said that you form an impression of an individual pretty quickly and have found in your own experience you have only been wrong once, I think.

Mr. CRAFARD. I have been wrong twice that I can recall.

Mr. HUBERT. I would like you to tell us what your impression was of Ruby, and if you can, give us some factual examples and reasons, you know.

Mr. CRAFARD. Well, first he was a kind of a likable person. He was kind of impressable. I mean he impressed me somewhat. I had one instant feeling, I can’t recollect, more or less the way he talked and his actions that the man might be somewhat queer.

Mr. HUBERT. When you say “queer” you mean what?

Mr. CRAFARD. As the general usage of the term.

Mr. HUBERT. You mean homosexual?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. What caused you to feel that?

Mr. CRAFARD. The way he talked and his general action.

Mr. HUBERT. Was he effeminate in his method of speaking?

Mr. CRAFARD. More or less.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he have a lisp?

Mr. CRAFARD. Not that I recall.

Mr. HUBERT. What other physical actions that you observed that you think support or supported your view that he might be homosexual?

Mr. CRAFARD. Well, mostly just the way he talked and mostly the way he walked.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he have any activity----

Mr. CRAFARD. When I first met him.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he have any activity with his hands or walk or dress?

Mr. CRAFARD. That is it, the way a person walks or moves or uses his hands, involve the appearance of this type of person which I have been in contact with quite a few of them in the type of things I have been doing.

Mr. HUBERT. So the overall impression that you had from his speech and from his movement of hands and his walk gave you the impression that he would fit into the category of people who in your experience were homosexuals?

Mr. CRAFARD. That is right.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you have occasion to change that view?

Mr. CRAFARD. Oh, at the same time I kind of liked him, and I never really went as far as changing that opinion I never really changed it although he had never made any overtures toward me.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you see him make any overtures toward any man?

Mr. CRAFARD. Not to my knowledge, not that I ever saw.

Mr. HUBERT. You heard about some, I suppose?

Mr. CRAFARD. No; I didn’t. I never heard about any cases where he had.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you hear people express the view that he was homosexual?

Mr. CRAFARD. Not people that I met after I went to work for him. But this friend of mine that met him the same night I did, him and I were pretty well agreed on the subject that he seemed to be quite that type.

Mr. HUBERT. What was the name of that friend?

Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t even remember his name. He was a carnival worker, he worked at the carnival.

Mr. HUBERT. It was not one of the owners?

Mr. CRAFARD. Just a worker.

Mr. HUBERT. And he was not homosexual himself?

Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir; he was a pretty straight kid.

Mr. HUBERT. How do you square that off, that opinion of him, with the fact that he was going out with a girl that you have identified in that Exhibit 5200 A, B, C, D, and E?

Mr. CRAFARD. I have known several people of this type that were married and had families.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, you didn’t think that was inconsistent with your former view, your earlier view?

Mr. CRAFARD. No; as far as being inconsistent with my knowledge of that type of person it isn’t.

Mr. HUBERT. Is it fair to say that your original impression of Ruby that he might be homosexual still persists to this day?

Mr. CRAFARD. That is right. Although he was a likable person and I liked him, and I have got one opinion, I don’t care, I know for sure if a man is that way if he leaves me alone I can get along fine with him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he have any friends or acquaintances whom you also thought were homosexuals?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; he did.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Which would those people be?

Mr. CRAFARD. George Senator, for one. He was the only one of his friends that I met that I really felt that way about.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you describe Senator so that we can understand why you felt he was a homosexual?

Mr. CRAFARD. More or less from the way he talked more than anything. It is kind of hard for me to explain it because I haven’t got the education to use the words.

Mr. GRIFFIN. We don’t want it--we, the only reason we are taking it this way is because we don’t want to put words in your mouth.

Mr. CRAFARD. Well, mostly because of the way he talked, his actions.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well now, when you went into Jack’s apartment, did you see anything in that apartment which would lead you to think that he and George were having homosexual relationships?

Mr. CRAFARD. No; just general bachelor apartment more than anything.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you notice that one of the beds had been slept in and the other hadn’t, for example?

Mr. CRAFARD. I only saw the bed in Jack’s room. The other bedroom the door was closed.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Senator have feminine mannerisms?

Mr. CRAFARD. Mostly in his speech, at times. It wasn’t all the time but at times he would have the mannerisms in his speech, the way he uses his hands.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was he giggling or what sort of manners?

Mr. CRAFARD. Oh, a lot about the way he laughed. He would get to talking about different things and the way his voice would sound more than anything.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about the topics that you heard Jack and Senator talk about. Was there anything about the subjects of conversation that they had which would indicate that they were homosexual or had some sort of----

Mr. CRAFARD. No. The only thing I could say along that line was that they was always together, they were together an awful lot.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Were you able to tell from their relationship whether one of them was performing services for the other whether in the maintenance of the household, for example, one of them was assuming responsibilities or the other wasn’t or taking care of clothes or things like that?

Mr. CRAFARD. Well, most of the cooking Jack done 90 percent, most of the cooking that was done in the apartment to my knowledge was done by Jack.

Mr. HUBERT. How do you know that?

Mr. CRAFARD. Well, on a couple of occasions Senator--Jack was billing Senator out because he had cooked something that he shouldn’t have cooked or something, that--and it was something he didn’t do very often was cook. I can’t remember the name, what, everything what was said or everything. But it was to the fact that he didn’t cook anything around the place and when he did cook it, the few times he did cook he would cook it wrong or something.

Mr. HUBERT. And you heard that from having heard Jack remonstrate with him?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Is it fair to state that except for the specific examples you have given here your impression of both these men, Ruby and Senator concerning their homosexual tendencies, is based upon your experience with other people of that same type.

Mr. CRAFARD. That is right.

Mr. HUBERT. Have you any other specifics to mention?

Mr. CRAFARD. That would be about the only thing I could think of.

Mr. HUBERT. What would you say of Jack concerning his temper, and his reaction to situations?

Mr. CRAFARD. He had an erratic temper.

Mr. HUBERT. What do you mean, give us examples, you know.

Mr. CRAFARD. You never knew something that you thought would blow him up might not bother him, something that you thought would not bother him a bit he would blow up about.

Mr. HUBERT. Like what? I mean that must be based upon something that happened.

Mr. CRAFARD. Like Andy making a goof with regards to the girls were supposed to work. They took nights off.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, tell us about that so we have it in the record.

Mr. CRAFARD. Well, the first time it happened Jack got pretty mad about it. The next time it happened, one of the girls was supposed to be there and didn’t show up, Jack never said a word.

Mr. HUBERT. When you say he got mad about it, how did he manifest his anger?

Mr. CRAFARD. Raising his voice, shouting and calling Andy some “stupid.”

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack swear, use profanity?

Mr. CRAFARD. Very seldom. When he usually did it was usually “hell” or “damn.”

Mr. HUBERT. Have you any other examples to give us that would throw light upon his temper?

Mr. CRAFARD. One day, I was using a vacuum cleaner and it wouldn’t work and something went wrong with it, something like that, the club has got to be clean, you would think the man would be kind of perturbed about it and he wasn’t the least bit bothered about it. I would be cleaning the club and he would come in while I was cleaning the club, and he would get pretty perturbed because I was working the vacuum cleaner while he was there and he would yell at me and make me quit cleaning until he had left.

Mr. HUBERT. Had you ever seen him in arguments with other people?

Mr. CRAFARD. A couple of times with, he got pretty perturbed at the M.C.s, the one M.C. because of some of the jokes he was telling, some of the stories.

Mr. HUBERT. Tell us about that, please, start off with the name of the M.C., if you can.

Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t remember the M.C.s name.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember what period of time it was?

Mr. CRAFARD. Working for Jack when I went to work for him. He was working for Jack.

Mr. HUBERT. How many M.C.s worked during that time?

Mr. CRAFARD. About three different M.C.s.

Mr. HUBERT. This was the one who was working when you first went to work with it?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Tell us about that?

Mr. CRAFARD. He had quite a habit of telling racial jokes and Jack was pretty much against this and on several occasions he got pretty perturbed with the M.C. for telling the racial jokes.

Mr. HUBERT. When you say pretty perturbed, you see that doesn’t tell us about what he did.

Mr. CRAFARD. To the point where he went in among the chairs right by the stage and was yelling at the M.C.

Mr. HUBERT. So that he could be heard all over the club?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. Very definitely.

Mr. HUBERT. And yelling, by yelling you mean that his voice was raised above the normal?

Mr. CRAFARD. Very much so.

Mr. HUBERT. What was he saying?

Mr. CRAFARD. Telling him, you know, “I don’t like that kind of jokes in here.” He said, stuff like that.

Mr. HUBERT. What kind of jokes were they?

Mr. CRAFARD. Racial jokes.

Mr. HUBERT. Well about what race?

Mr. CRAFARD. Colored people.

Mr. HUBERT. About the colored people?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; Jack was against a racial joke of any type, very much so.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you find that out from him or just from this occasion?

Mr. CRAFARD. From these different occasions like that.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he ever tell you himself that he was?

Mr. CRAFARD. No; not personally, but from the way he acted on different occasions like that that would happen he would chew the M.C. out pretty good for telling the racial jokes and for some pretty vulgar jokes he told, on occasions.

Mr. HUBERT. You mean he objected to vulgar jokes?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; he said that his objection was the club was no place for that real vulgar type of joke.

Mr. HUBERT. By vulgar you mean a joke that dealt with sex?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; joke that would leave no doubt in a person’s mind that it was a sexual joke. Some of them that he told were just that type of joke.

Mr. HUBERT. You mean abnormal sex?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. So what he objected to were jokes that had to do with abnormal sex, is that correct?

Mr. CRAFARD. Well, there was, I think on one or two occasions there was, the M.C. told jokes of an abnormal sex, but there was things that were real vulgar jokes where he was cussing a lot or something in a joke he didn’t care for too much. He don’t like the foul language used in the club very much.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about--these comedians must have told sexual jokes, didn’t they?

Mr. CRAFARD. Oh, yes; that is one of the things that put a comedian over in that kind of a club; they are there to sell sex, and if they don’t tell a sexual joke the comedian is nothing.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How do you distinguish for us between the kind of sexual jokes that Jack would be upset about and those he accepted?

Mr. CRAFARD. [Deleted.]

Mr. HUBERT. Is that the type of joke that Ruby objected to?

Mr. CRAFARD. That type of joke would be acceptable because it leaves a person to figure out in his own mind what the deal is.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What kind would be objectionable?

Mr. CRAFARD. [Deleted.]

Mr. HUBERT. That would be an objectionable joke?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; because there would be no question in anybody’s mind.

Mr. HUBERT. Is that a specific example, or one that you were using?

Mr. CRAFARD. An example; the joke was not told in the club.

Mr. HUBERT. From what you have told us as a generalization it would seem to be this, that any joke that left it to the imagination of the listener would be all right with Jack, but if it was specific he objected to it.

Mr. CRAFARD. That is right. It was pretty well acceptable all over the country that way. You take even with a party joke. If a party joke leaves in a person’s mind in most places, leaves it to a person to imagine it themselves, it is acceptable. But if there isn’t any doubt it doesn’t make it acceptable in a mixed party.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Larry, did you learn anything that would indicate whether Jack’s attitude about these jokes was based on any concern about what the local law-enforcement people would feel about having such jokes told in his club?

Mr. CRAFARD. No; I don’t--I can’t think of anything that would make me feel that way.

Mr. HUBERT. Was it your impression of his being perturbed, as the way you put it, was sincere or possibly just part of the act?

Mr. CRAFARD. It seemed pretty sincere to me.

Mr. HUBERT. He never did tell you, man to man, that he objected to these?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack tell any jokes himself?

Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t recall of any. I think a couple of times he got on the stage and tried to M.C. and fell sort of flat.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about privately; was Jack the kind of person who would joke and tell jokes?

Mr. CRAFARD. He never did that I know of.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was Jack the kind of person who would sit around with the comedians and talk with them in between acts and so forth?

Mr. CRAFARD. No; Jack was the kind that the only time he would say anything to the comedians was if he done something he didn’t like, and if Jack wanted the comedian to do something he would say something to him.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever notice any traits of physical violence in Ruby?

Mr. CRAFARD. The one time I noticed any traits of physical violence at all, there was a guy came to the club who was pretty well polluted, and I think Ralph Paul was sitting right near the door, and he started giving the doorman a bad time.

Mr. HUBERT. Who started----

Mr. CRAFARD. This drunk fellow did.

Mr. HUBERT. Ralph had to get him to leave?

Mr. CRAFARD. Ralph was sitting right there and he asked the gentleman to leave and he wouldn’t do it, and Jack went over there and the gentleman struck Ralph Paul and when he did Jack just pushed his arm down and pushed him out the door.

Mr. HUBERT. He didn’t hit him?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you form any impression about Ralph Paul, as to whether Ralph Paul was a homosexual?

Mr. CRAFARD. No; Ralph was a pretty good, decent guy. I liked him, what little I did know of him. I like him. He was kind of a stuffed shirt, but he was a fair, likable guy.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you notice if Jack’s club was visited by any people who would appear to you to be homosexuals?

Mr. CRAFARD. No; I didn’t notice that. I can’t recall of any specific people coming in that would appear to be this way.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack ever talk to you about sex?

Mr. CRAFARD. No; very seldom; one or two occasions when I said something about a girl or something, when I said something about a girl or something.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What was his interest in his dogs?

Mr. CRAFARD. Sheba was the only one that really meant a lot to him. He was like a lot of people who are alone, and get with animals.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You mean he was attached to them?

Mr. CRAFARD. Really attached.

Mr. GRIFFIN. To Sheba?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he breed Sheba?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. Sheba had been bred.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was this something that he did, or did he send her some place to be bred?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe he took her to another place, another place to be bred; I am not sure.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there anything, any experience you had which indicated he had any sexual interest in these dogs?

Mr. CRAFARD. No; I wouldn’t say so.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever see him try to sexually stimulate these dogs?

Mr. CRAFARD. Not that I ever saw.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever hear anything in that regard?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Now the example you gave us about Ruby putting the man out at the club is the only one that you ever perceived as an act of physical violence?

Mr. CRAFARD. Where he actually used physical violence. I have seen him where he was close to it at another M.C. at one time. Threatened for him to go out or he would throw him out, which was something which occurred every 2 or 3 months with other M.C.’s.

Mr. HUBERT. Were there any occasions when you say that Jack handled a situation that could have involved violence but did not?

Mr. CRAFARD. Well, the situation where he told that M.C. to get out. It could have really involved violence, Jack’s just; he was about ready to grab the guy, and he just turned and walked away from him.

Mr. HUBERT. Jack walked away from that man?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. You never saw him hit anybody?

Mr. CRAFARD. No. The only time I even saw him touch anybody was when he got the man’s hand and knocked it down.

Mr. HUBERT. Was the comedian bigger than Jack?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; bigger than Jack.

Mr. HUBERT. Quite a bit bigger?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. How about the patron that he handled?

Mr. CRAFARD. He was a bigger fellow. He stood about 6 foot. He is quite a bit bigger than I am, even. He was taller and heavier.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know anything about what Ruby did to keep in physical condition?

Mr. CRAFARD. I knew he worked with barbells quite a lot.

Mr. HUBERT. How did you know that?

Mr. CRAFARD. He told me about his barbells a couple of times and he was dieting, and I had heard that he went to a gymnasium quite often.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he seem to you to be a powerful man, considering his build and weight and size?

Mr. CRAFARD. For his type of build and flabbiness as he was, he had quite a bit of strength.

Mr. HUBERT. How did you know that?

Mr. CRAFARD. Well----

Mr. HUBERT. Well, I mean did you observe him in a situation which demonstrated the use of strength?

Mr. CRAFARD. No; not really where it would be a real test of strength or anything. I have never seen anything of that sort.

Mr. HUBERT. I was just wondering how you formed the impression that he was a pretty strong man, considering his size.

Mr. CRAFARD. Well, for as heavy a man as he was, he was pretty solid for one thing; he was fairly solid.

Mr. HUBERT. You could tell that by looking at him?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. I suppose you have seen him with his coat off or something.

Mr. CRAFARD. I saw him with just his pants and a T-shirt on, or an undershirt and pants, on one occasion when I went to his house. He shaved and he said something and I stepped over to the bathroom door; I couldn’t hear. He repeated it and I stepped back and sat down and watched television and then he went ahead and got cleaned up.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he carry a gun?

Mr. CRAFARD. He had one in the car. He very seldom carried it on his person.

Mr. HUBERT. Where did he keep it in the car?

Mr. CRAFARD. Usually in the trunk; it was in a money pouch, a money sack, which usually stayed in the trunk.

Mr. HUBERT. You say he didn’t carry it on his person?

Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever see it on his person or know it was there in some way?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir; one night that I knew for sure it was there.

Mr. HUBERT. What night was that?

Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t recall the date, but something happened, and Jack sent me down to the car to get the gun and bring it up to him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there some trouble in the Carousel?

Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t remember whether it was right in the Carousel or whether it was a phone call or what it was, really. There was something there----

Mr. HUBERT. He told you something that indicated he ought to have the gun, and he asked you to go get it?

Mr. CRAFARD. He sent me down after the gun.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he just simply send you down after the gun, or did he tell you that there was something that had happened?

Mr. CRAFARD. He sent me down after the gun. Something happened right there at the club. I can’t----

Mr. HUBERT. Was it some sort of a disturbance?

Mr. CRAFARD. I can’t recall just what it was.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was this an incident that other people would have been aware of; Andy Armstrong might have been aware of?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe Andy Armstrong was right there at the time. I believe most any of the girls who worked for him were aware of it at the time.

Mr. HUBERT. Did I misunderstand you? Did you say this incident where you were sent for the gun was preceded by a phone call?

Mr. CRAFARD. I am not sure. He had been on the phone and then he went outside and then something happened at the club; he had an argument or something.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did he do after you brought the gun?

Mr. CRAFARD. He was right there and the club was closed and I didn’t see him until the next day. He seemed pretty angry.

Mr. GRIFFIN. He didn’t try to throw anybody out?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was George Senator there at the time?

Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t recall.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember how close this incident was to the death of the President?

Mr. CRAFARD. It was either a week before or the same week, earlier the same week, that President Kennedy was assassinated.

Mr. HUBERT. Was it a weekday?

Mr. CRAFARD. No. It was during the week.

Mr. HUBERT. It was not on a weekend?

Mr. CRAFARD. No; it was during the week.

Mr. HUBERT. So it would have been sometime between the 17th, say, of November and prior to the 22d, or it would have been sometime between the 11th and the 15th of November; is that correct?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Have you ever noticed any incidents of Ruby that would throw some light on whether he was a person who had a trait of kindness or benevolence toward other people?

Mr. CRAFARD. He was quite kindhearted.

Mr. HUBERT. Give us an example of that.

Mr. CRAFARD. One example was the way he took me in. He had no reason for doing it. He wasn’t obligated to do it in any way.

Mr. HUBERT. You think you earned your pay?

Mr. CRAFARD. What is that?

Mr. HUBERT. Do you think you earned your pay?

Mr. CRAFARD. I think I earned everything I got.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you still think it was an act of kindness on his part to take you in?

Mr. CRAFARD. I think he was doing me a favor, and still in all he was getting some pretty cheap work, labor.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ask him for the job or did he ask you?

Mr. CRAFARD. He asked me. And then I know of another occasion where I was told about of this young fellow he took in didn’t do a thing around the club and he had him around there for 3 or 4 months.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did it seem to you that Jack felt it was important that he have somebody at the club all the time?

Mr. CRAFARD. After I was there for a while he seemed to feel that way. At first, when I first got to know him, he didn’t seem to feel that way.

Mr. HUBERT. This boy that had been there more or less doing the job that you did, but was there prior to you; did you know this fellow?

Mr. CRAFARD. No; I didn’t know him. I had heard--Andy had told me about him.

Mr. HUBERT. Isn’t it a fact that you heard from Andy or otherwise there had been some trouble between Ruby and that man?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe there was something said about trouble.

Mr. HUBERT. Isn’t it a fact that you heard that Ruby pistol-whipped him?

Mr. CRAFARD. No; I can’t recall of ever hearing that statement.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you hear that this boy was Jewish?

Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir. I had no idea; no knowledge of him.

Mr. HUBERT. You never met him?

Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I understand that there came a time when you asked Jack to put you on a different pay basis than you originally were.

Mr. CRAFARD. When I went to work it was on the understanding that I eventually would be with him a Little while and then I would start being on a salary.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long were you with him? Well, let me put it this way: Did there come a time when you began to ask to be put on salary?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long after?

Mr. CRAFARD. Because I felt that the way things were, I didn’t have any private life of my own. He wanted to tell me what I could do, who I could talk to, and who I couldn’t talk to if he put me on a salary where I was maybe making $35 or $40 a week I could live on my own, which I would much prefer to do.

Mr. GRIFFIN. $35 or $40 plus the opportunity to live at the club?

Mr. CRAFARD. As long as it was $35 or $40, period. I could live on my own; for the work I done at the club, I could live on my own.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. How long had you been with Jack before you started to ask him about this?

Mr. CRAFARD. I probably had been with him about 4 or 5 weeks. That was about 2 weeks before President Kennedy was assassinated.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did Jack say when you mentioned that to him?

Mr. CRAFARD. He said he would see what he could do.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What do you mean by that? What did you understand by that?

Mr. CRAFARD. Well, he said what he could do; he would figure his bookwork out and see what he could do.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you remind him of the fact that he had told you that at the beginning?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

(Whereupon, at 12:10 p.m., the proceeding recessed.)

TESTIMONY OF CURTIS L. CRAFARD RESUMED

The proceeding reconvened at 1:30 p.m.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, Mr. Crafard, this is a continuation of the deposition which was recessed for the lunch hour. You understand that we are continuing this deposition by the same authority that we commenced it with, and likewise that you are under the same oath that you were under and that you took at the beginning of that deposition?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Is that agreeable to you?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, when did you first hear that the President was going to visit Dallas?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe it was about 3 or 4 weeks before he came to Dallas. It was advertised in the paper.

Mr. HUBERT. Were you working for Ruby at that time?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir; it came out in the papers that showed the proposed route and the proposed secondary route of this trip through the city.

Mr. HUBERT. Are you saying that the first time you found out that he, President Kennedy, was going to visit the city, was when you read it in the newspapers?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. And that in that account that you read in the newspapers, the proposed route and an alternate route was given?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. That would have been just a very few days before he actually came, wouldn’t it?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe that was at least a week before he came that that came out.

Mr. HUBERT. At any rate, whatever day the proposed route came out in the papers that was the first day that you found out that the President was coming to Dallas at all?

Mr. CRAFARD. They had been thinking he was going to come to Dallas. They said something about it, but there was nothing definite at that time, I didn’t know anything definite about it until I read it in the paper.

Mr. HUBERT. You had read something in the paper about his coming prior to the time that the route was set out?

Mr. CRAFARD. There was something in the paper about it figured he would come or something but so far as I can recall there was nothing definite until that same issue.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, did you ever talk to Ruby about it?

Mr. CRAFARD. No. There wasn’t much said about it in the club.

Mr. HUBERT. Was anything said about it?

Mr. CRAFARD. Something the day the paper came out with the proposed route, we all said something about the fact that he was coming to town, Dallas, that it would probably help Dallas a little bit.

Mr. HUBERT. Help in what way?

Mr. CRAFARD. Maybe bring a few more conventions or something.

Mr. HUBERT. Who said that?

Mr. CRAFARD. We all discussed it, Andy and Jack and I.

Mr. HUBERT. Including Ruby?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember specifically a conference, or conversation, rather, of which there were three, at least, Jack Ruby and Andy Armstrong, at which it was mentioned that it was a good thing for Dallas because it would bring more conventions?

Mr. CRAFARD. It was in the paper, when Jack came to the club we already had the paper there and Jack came to the club and he read the paper and said something about it and then he said something to the effect that it might help Dallas a little bit because it might bring more conventions to Dallas, or something to that effect.

Mr. HUBERT. That was the day that the paper came out with the route?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Had you talked to Ruby about the President’s visit prior to that day.

Mr. CRAFARD. Not that I can recall.

Mr. HUBERT. Had you talked to anyone else?

Mr. CRAFARD. Not that I recall.

Mr. HUBERT. You didn’t let me finish my question. Had you talked to anyone else about the fact that the President might be coming to Dallas?

Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t recall anything about it, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. When you say there was no conversation in the club about it other than what you have testified to----

Mr. CRAFARD. None that I can recall.

Mr. HUBERT. Was any mention made of the fact that in any conversation between you and Jack or anybody else about the fact that the parade would pass near the club?

Mr. CRAFARD. There was something said that we only have to walk a block, I think, or something like that, up where we could see the parade.

Mr. HUBERT. Who said that?

Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t remember whether it was Andy or myself.

Mr. HUBERT. Could it have been Ruby?

Mr. CRAFARD. It might have been. I don’t know.

Mr. HUBERT. In any case, either you or Andy made such a remark, and was Jack present when it was made?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe he was; yes.

Mr. HUBERT. You have a distinct recollection of that?

Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t have a distinct recollection; no.

Mr. HUBERT. Was it on the same occasion that you mentioned earlier that he came in and said about how it would improve the business?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe it was the day before the President’s trip, arrival in Dallas, Andy and I had been saying something about wanting to see it and some one of us said something about it was only about a block or something like that to go to see it.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you ask Jack’s permission to leave to go watch it?

Mr. CRAFARD. I think we both told Jack that we was going to go watch it.

Mr. HUBERT. You and Andy did?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; I believe so.

Mr. HUBERT. Together?

Mr. CRAFARD. No; we didn’t figure on going. Andy was taking the day off so he could go and I told Jack I was figuring going on up and watching the parade.

Mr. HUBERT. What did he say about it?

Mr. CRAFARD. He didn’t say anything.

Mr. HUBERT. What?

Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t recall him saying anything.

Mr. HUBERT. You were asking him----

Mr. CRAFARD. Other than maybe telling me it was all right to go or something.

Mr. HUBERT. That is what I was wondering. Did he express any consent or disapproval?

Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t recall what he said.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he mention what he was going to do about watching it?

Mr. CRAFARD. Not that I recall.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you tell him where you were going to watch it, yourself?

Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir.

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. HUBERT. You recall, of course, the day that the President was shot.

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall the night before that, which would have been Thursday night?

Mr. CRAFARD. As far as I can recall it was more or less a general night for the club.

Mr. HUBERT. Were there any special preparations by way of preparing for a larger crowd or for some program in connection with the President’s visit?

Mr. CRAFARD. Not that I can recall.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, the night prior to the President’s visit was a routine night?

Mr. CRAFARD. As far as I can recall.

Mr. HUBERT. I suppose you have put your mind to it since, particularly at the time it happened, because most people did, you know. They relate that historic event to their own lives and reconstruct what they were doing before and afterwards.

Did you do that? Have you ever done that?

Mr. CRAFARD. I have tried to think of what I was doing before, the night before, a couple nights before, or something like that. I don’t recall anything out of the ordinary.

Mr. HUBERT. If it was the ordinary, then I suppose it would have been that the club were closed up at its usual hour.

Mr. CRAFARD. As far as I recall, yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And you were still sleeping there?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; I was still sleeping there.

Mr. HUBERT. So you would have gone to sleep?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. And then I suppose Ruby would have wakened you?

Mr. CRAFARD. Andy woke me that morning. He come in early. Andy always put the beer in and he come in early to do that so that he could have the rest of the day off.

Mr. HUBERT. What time did Andy come in?

Mr. CRAFARD. I think it was about 9:30 or something like that.

Mr. HUBERT. Came in personally?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. He was there when the President was shot.

Mr. HUBERT. Were you asleep when he came in?

Mr. CRAFARD. I was asleep when he came in.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you waken up when he came in?

Mr. CRAFARD. I didn’t wake up--Andy woke me up and told me that the President had been shot.

Mr. HUBERT. That was much later in the day, wasn’t it?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe so.

Mr. HUBERT. About 12:30?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Weren’t you suppose to be doing your cleaning-up job?

Mr. CRAFARD. Ordinarily if I had been up, I would have been cleaning up; yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Ordinarily he would have awakened you when he came in, wouldn’t he?

Mr. CRAFARD. Andy, when he came in he should have woke me up. I guess he said he had called me or something and I hadn’t woke up, I hadn’t got up or something.

Mr. HUBERT. Didn’t he know you wanted to go and see the parade?

Mr. CRAFARD. He knew I said something about it. I don’t know, I think maybe he had been down and saw us--down to see some of it or something and then come back to the club or something.

Mr. HUBERT. You didn’t leave word for anyone to call you to see the parade?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Wasn’t it unusual for you to sleep that length of time?

Mr. CRAFARD. Not if I was tired and they didn’t call me, I’d sleep if they didn’t call me.

Mr. HUBERT. Have you ever done that before?

Mr. CRAFARD. I’ve seen the time when I went to sleep and slept 14 or 15 hours.

Mr. HUBERT. No, I am talking about while you were at the club.

Mr. CRAFARD. At the club a couple times I slept until 1:30 or 2 o’clock in the afternoon before somebody woke me up.

Mr. HUBERT. You had made no plans yourself to anticipate going to see the President?

Mr. CRAFARD. Not definite plans except if I got up I figured I’d go down and see it.

Mr. HUBERT. And you intended to get up?

Mr. CRAFARD. I figured I’d wake up. I didn’t wake up.

Mr. HUBERT. What time did you go to bed, do you know?

Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t know, about 2:30 or 3 o’clock, or something.

Mr. HUBERT. You slept clean around until 12:30 or after?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. How do you know Andy came in earlier?

Mr. CRAFARD. The beer was all taken care of, so I figured he had been in the club.

Mr. HUBERT. You are not sure It was Andy that did that, then?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Put the beer on?

Mr. CRAFARD. Andy said something about doing it, he had done it earlier, or something.

Mr. HUBERT. Was the beer normally delivered at a regular time?

Mr. CRAFARD. We had the beer delivered 2 days a week. Andy come in every day and put the beer in the cooler.

Mr. HUBERT. Where was the beer delivered?

Mr. CRAFARD. It was delivered upstairs when it was delivered.

Mr. HUBERT. Did somebody have to receive it?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. When was it delivered that day, do you know?

Mr. CRAFARD. It was delivered on Tuesdays and Saturdays, I believe it was.

Mr. HUBERT. It wasn’t delivered on this day, then?

Mr. CRAFARD. No, but he come up to put more beer in the cooler.

Mr. HUBERT. That was his job?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. He done that all the time.

Mr. HUBERT. You didn’t have anything to do with it?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where would he carry the beer from, from what place to where?

Mr. CRAFARD. It would come in the front door of the club, there was a hallway off to the side here and come on over here and made an L. My room was here and he’d get the beer over here and take it out.

Mr. HUBERT. He had to pass your room?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. HUBERT. He had to pass by it?

Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. He would come in the back of the club where the beer was stored?

Mr. CRAFARD. Probably he’d come in the front door and go up here and get the beer. My room was down here on this corner, and he would get the beer here.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you leave the door open or closed?

Mr. CRAFARD. My door was closed.

Mr. HUBERT. Why was it closed?

Mr. CRAFARD. I closed it all the time.

Mr. HUBERT. Weren’t you supposed to be sort of on guard, as it were, in addition to doing the job around there, that is part of your job having someone on the premises?

Mr. CRAFARD. I just figured having me sleep there, I guess. He never said anything to me about it.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he ever awaken you oh other days when he brought the beer?

Mr. CRAFARD. If Andy came in when I was still in bed he’d usually wake me up, yes.

Mr. HUBERT. But he did not this morning?

Mr. CRAFARD. He said he called me but I hadn’t woke up.

Mr. HUBERT. He called you by telephone or in person?