Chapter XXVII: Part 27

Mr. HUBERT. All right; now I show you photostats of a number of pages in a book, which have been identified the other day when you first were here: “Dallas, Texas, April 14, 1964, Exhibits 5308, Deposition of Andrew Armstrong,” and I ask you to look at all those pictures first, and tell me if you recognize that book at all?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. I’ve already looked at them.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you recognize it?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. What about it do you recognize? What book was that?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. This is a little notebook that Larry carried around and took messages on and wrote checks, phone numbers, and things down on.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever see it before?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Where?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. At the club.

Mr. HUBERT. Where was it at the club--where was it kept?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Larry kept it in his pocket, although, when he left, he left it there with him.

Mr. HUBERT. He left it where?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. He left it at the club.

Mr. HUBERT. He left it with you?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No, no; he just left it at the club.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, when you came back to the club, the day after Larry left, to clean up, I think you found some other things of his and you found that too?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Or, did you find that at another time?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Not that same day. No; I didn’t find it then--it was later.

Mr. HUBERT. When did you find it?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Sometime after the club opened back up--I don’t know whether it was Monday or Tuesday--whatever day the FBI’s came up this day, I found this.

Mr. HUBERT. Where was it?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. It was in the room where he slept.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you find it on the same day that you found the letters?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes; I think so.

Mr. HUBERT. They were together?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And you turned them over to the FBI?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, I think you said you have looked over that book already--the other day?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Is there anything significant about that book you wish to comment upon?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No; I can recognize a few names in it.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall if they were names of any people that you have not so far mentioned in your deposition?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes; I think----

Mr. HUBERT. All right; I would like you to go through and pick out the names of the people that have not yet been discussed by you as part of your deposition.

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Here is a name--Mike Shore--I’ve heard it before--I think he is an agent.

Mr. HUBERT. That’s on the first page, right?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes; and here is a name--Abe Kleinman--which is the accountant.

Mr. HUBERT. That’s on the second page?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. The name Earl Ruby, that’s Jack’s brother.

Mr. HUBERT. That’s on the second page?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. The name Doris and Peggy, on the second page, which they had called for to apply for jobs.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you speak to them?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No; Larry did himself.

Mr. HUBERT. How do you know, then, that they had called to apply for jobs?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, he told me--he wrote the name down and it was the day we were looking for waitresses, and he give me the numbers, and I didn’t reach them as they were not at home or something, and the name Bill DeMar.

Mr. HUBERT. Who was he?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. He’s an M.C.--the name Mike Ryan.

Mr. HUBERT. I think you have already talked to us about Mike Ryan, haven’t you?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. All right.

Mr. ARMSTRONG. The name Little Lynn--I have already talked to you about that. Here’s a name--Bobby Patterson of--I’ve heard of, I don’t know him.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever see him?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.

Mr. HUBERT. What have you heard about him?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Nothing--I just heard the name--I forget what he was connected with.

Mr. HUBERT. Let the record show that the witness is looking over the pictures, and that as he has any comment, he has been asked to make such comment without further questioning from me.

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes; I recognize the back of the notebook.

Mr. HUBERT. What about the back of the notebook.

Mr. ARMSTRONG. I just recognize that that’s the notebook that belonged to Larry.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, I show you a document which is described as a photostatic copy of some sort of a notebook which has been identified as follows: This page is marked, “Dallas. Texas, April 14, 1964,” which is when your deposition began, “Exhibit 5309-A, Deposition of Andrew Armstrong,” and I have signed it.

Let the record show also that this exhibit is also marked “Washington, D.C., Deposition of C. L. Crafard, Exhibit 5302, April 9, 1964,” and under which appears the name of Mr. Burt Griffin.

This exhibit consists of nine pages. There is typewritten on the front of it, “Notebook number 1,” found on the left-hand bottom of the exhibit, and the number “(1)” and then on each of the subsequent pages there is typewritten there at the right-hand side, “No. 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, and 9,” in that sequence.

I ask you if you can identify that document? Now, look the whole thing over and we will do it in this way. I want you to look it all over first and tell me without making any comment, and then tell me whether you identify it or not.

Mr. ARMSTRONG [examining instrument referred to].

Mr. HUBERT. All right, now you have looked over all of these pages, and first I ask you whether you recognize the book at all?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you recognize the handwriting or printing in it?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. I believe once--one time a long time ago Jack had a notebook like this.

Mr. HUBERT. Can you say now whether the one you think he had a long time ago is shown in these photostatic pictures?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. It must be, because my old telephone number is in there.

Mr. HUBERT. Your recognition of the book, though, is not based on an actual recognition now, but an assumption, isn’t it?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. You really can’t recognize that as Jack’s handwriting or have a distinct independent recollection of having seen the original of which those pages are photos?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, I’ll ask you to do as you have done with the last exhibit, and that is to look over each page and see if you recognize any name or number? If you do not, pass to the next page. If you do, stop and tell us what page it is on and then make what comments you have to make.

Mr. ARMSTRONG [examining instrument referred to]. First, I’ll say I believe that is Jack’s handwriting.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, now, a moment ago you said you couldn’t be sure--have you changed your mind?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. What caused you to do that?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Certain letters here that I know his way of printing.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, go on with the examination of each page as I have asked you to do.

Mr. ARMSTRONG. The name Bill Willis.

Mr. HUBERT. What page are you talking about--that is typewritten at the bottom of page 4--right?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. At the bottom of page 4.

Mr. HUBERT. What name?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Bill Willis.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you recognize that name?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Who is he?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. He was a drummer at the club.

Mr. HUBERT. When was he a drummer at the club?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Ever since I been there.

Mr. HUBERT. Was he there until the place closed?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, he was there almost 2 years?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. He was there longer than that.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he and Jack get along all right?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. They got along better than anybody else.

Mr. HUBERT. What evidence did you see to support that conclusion on your part?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, Bill Willis was one of the few guys that I ever heard Jack say was a nice guy--continuously.

Mr. HUBERT. Was--so, your assumption that they got along better than anyone else is based on what Jack told you about him?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And that was that Jack continuously said he was a nice guy?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. He liked him and everybody else did, because he is really a wonderful person. I recognize my phone number and the name “Andy.”

Mr. HUBERT. That’s on page 4?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. On page 4--I recognize the name “Wally Weston.”

Mr. HUBERT. That’s on page 6?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. That’s on page 6. I have heard Jack mention the name Joe Cook.

Mr. HUBERT. That’s on page 6, too?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you know Joe Cook?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.

Mr. HUBERT. What did Jack have to say about him?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, he just mentioned him in his business--I’ve forgotten what it was.

Mr. HUBERT. When did he mention Joe Cook?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. I can’t recall.

Mr. HUBERT. Would it have been shortly after you got there, towards the end, or about the middle of the time you were there?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. I don’t know--I couldn’t say. I recognize the name Peggy Steele.

Mr. HUBERT. That was on page 8--who was Peggy Steele?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. She was a stripper that was booked there for about a month.

Mr. HUBERT. How long ago--what period of time was she there?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. I don’t know--it was sometime about the fall of 1962, I would say.

Mr. HUBERT. She was there for about a month?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. After she left, did you ever see her?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Was she ever around the club any more?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.

Mr. HUBERT. That was the fall of 1962, not 1963; is that correct?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. 1962--yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, you have gone through all of the pages 1 through 9 of Exhibit 5309-A, and I understand that you have made all the comments that you have to make about any of the entries on those various pages, and that is to say that you made a comment as to any name that had any significance to you at all?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And if you have not commented on the name, that means that the name has no significance to you?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. I am going to ask you to do substantially the same thing with another document that I am handing you that has been identified, “Dallas, Texas, April 14, 1964,” and this was marked for identification on your last appearance. It is marked as Exhibit 5309-B, “Deposition of Andrew Armstrong.” I have signed it. The document consists of 20 pages. It is a photostat of an original, apparently. It has written in type “Notebook No. (2), page 1,” on the first page, and then on each of the subsequent pages there are numbers running from 2 to 20.

I would also like to have the record note that this exhibit has also been marked as “Exhibit 5204,” relative to the deposition of C. L. Crafard.

I would like you first of all to look through all of the pages for the purpose of a general identification, after which I am going to ask you to go over each page as you did the previous document.

Mr. ARMSTRONG. [Examining instrument referred to.] Okay.

Mr. HUBERT. Let the record show that the witness is examining each page of the exhibit.

Now, you have looked at all of the pages of that Exhibit 5309-B, and you have identified it all?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes--no--well, yes, I have looked at it but I haven’t identified it.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, we’ll put it this way--have you ever seen the original of which this exhibit is a series of pictures?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.

Mr. HUBERT. You have never seen that address book, or whatever it is?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. I don’t remember seeing this--now, I could have, but I don’t remember it.

Mr. HUBERT. You don’t remember ever having seen it at all?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Let me make this statement.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, go ahead--you wish to make a statement?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Jack kept a number of little books and little pieces of paper wrapped up with a rubber band in his coat pocket and whenever he got ready to look for anything he would take it out and run through it, take out one of those little books, which I didn’t pay any attention to it--this could be one of the little books he had.

Mr. HUBERT. But you do not recognize it?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.

Mr. HUBERT. And you don’t believe you have ever seen it before?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, I will ask you to go over each individual page and if there is any entry or name that has any significance to you or that you recognize in any way, stop and identify the page and then make your comment. If, as you turn the pages over and examine them you have no recognition or the entries are not significant to you, then your silence as to each page will mean precisely that.

That is to say, that those entries mean nothing to you.

Mr. ARMSTRONG. [Examining instrument referred to.] I recognize the name Sam Ruby.

Mr. HUBERT. That’s what page--the page you are referring seems to be unnumbered--an unnumbered page, but it is the third page back from the one that is numbered 20, is that correct?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Who is Sam Ruby?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Jack Ruby’s brother.

Mr. HUBERT. Was he around the club much?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever meet him?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you meet him before Oswald was shot?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. How did you meet him?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. I met him at the club.

Mr. HUBERT. How many times?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Three or four times.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever speak to him?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. What about?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Oh, nothing--he would tell me about his business.

Mr. HUBERT. When was the last time you saw him prior to the assassination?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. The last time I saw him was at the trial.

Mr. HUBERT. When was the last time you saw him prior to the assassination of President Kennedy?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. I can’t recall.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, did you see any other names that you recognized in that exhibit?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No others.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, Mr. Armstrong, the other day I asked you to read a number of reports which purport to be reports by agents of the FBI of interviews of you?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you read them at that time?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Those were marked for identification the other day as follows:

“The interview by Special Agent Lish and Wilson, dated November 26, as Exhibit 5310-A,” consisting of two pages; the interview on November 27, consisting of one page, which was identified as Exhibit 5310-B; the interview of December 9, 1963, consisting of one page was identified as Exhibit 5310-C; and another interview of December 9, 1963, consisting of one page and which is identified as Exhibit 5310-D; the interview of December 13, 1963, consisting of one page and was identified as Exhibit 5310-E; the exhibit of December 19, 1963, was identified as Exhibit 5310-F; and exhibit dated January 22, 1964, was identified as Exhibit 5310-G, and it consists of four pages.

I have signed my name on the margin of the first page and my initials at the right-hand bottom of all the other pages.

I think you have read these various exhibits carefully the other day, did you not?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. As a matter of fact, if my recollection serves me right, it took you about an hour or so, did it not, to do so; is that correct?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you wish to look them over again?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, I’m going to ask you a question, and if you do wish to look them over again, in the light of my question, please say so, because you will be allowed to do so?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. All right.

Mr. HUBERT. What I want to know is whether or not these various Exhibits 5310-A through 5310-G are fair reports and correct reports of the interviews with the various agents of the FBI on the dates dated?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you notice anything that was incorrect?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes--not in this, but in the statement that I made day before yesterday.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, you mean that when you say something was incorrect--you mean you said something was incorrect the other day?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, we’ll get to that in a moment, but before we do, let’s dispose of these Exhibits 5310-A through 5310-G.

As far as you know, and you have read them, there is nothing in those exhibits that is incorrect?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.

Mr. HUBERT. It represents the truth as you know it and as you told it to the FBI agents?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, you say that there was something that was incorrect the other day that you said while in the course of your deposition?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Will you tell us what that was, please, sir?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. When you asked me what time did I leave the club on Saturday night.

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Mr. ARMSTRONG. I said 8 o’clock and in the report here it says 9, and after I read the report, I remembered that it was 9 o’clock when I left the club.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, the correction you want to make, then, is not in the FBI report but in your own testimony?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Your memory has now been refreshed by the report and you actually recollect that your time of departure from the club on Saturday night?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Was 9 o’clock rather than 8 o’clock?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Everything was right but the time.

Mr. HUBERT. Everything you said there was right except the time?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Except the time.

Mr. HUBERT. And you wish to correct your previous testimony insofar as you stated that you left at 8 o’clock, so that the record will show that in fact you left at 9 o’clock on Saturday night?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. November 23?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And you are telling me the reason you wish to make that correction is because of what?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Because I remember that after reading the statement that it was 9 o’clock when I left.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, do you have an independent recollection of having left at 9 o’clock instead of 8 o’clock, or are you simply relying upon what the FBI record shows you must have told them?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, no; it just brought back to my memory that it was originally set at 8 o’clock that I was going to leave. Then, before Jack left, he said, “Why don’t you make it 9” and I didn’t want to, but I said, “Okay,” and that’s when we got in the argument over the telephone and he wanted me to stay on until 10.

Mr. HUBERT. And at that time I thought you said you went ahead and left anyhow at 8 o’clock?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, 1 did, but I went ahead and left anyway at 9 o’clock.

Mr. HUBERT. So, you were in error the other day when you said that after the argument with Jack you went ahead and left at 8, the time you had agreed upon anyhow?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. He wanted you to stay until 10?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. You had agreed to stay until 8?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And you actually stayed until 9; is that correct?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, Mr. Armstrong, have you ever been interviewed before you met me by any member of the President’s Commission?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, of course, you have testified before me for a whole day now, almost a half clay, and necessarily there have been some conversations between us that have not been on the record, not purposely so, but simply at recess time.

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. But, even including everything that has occurred, all conversations between us at recess time or going down the elevator or one thing or another, is there anything that we discussed at those recess times which you can remember has not been brought up and recorded in this deposition?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, we haven’t discussed anything concerning the business that we was discussing on the record.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, you mean we might have discussed things unrelated to this inquiry?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, I’ll just put it this way--I don’t think we have discussed anything.

Mr. HUBERT. You don’t have any recollection of anything at all that we have discussed?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.

Mr. HUBERT. And in any case, if we might have discussed anything, it has been brought out on this record?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Is it fair to state that anyone who would read your deposition of the other day and today and would read the FBI reports as to what you told them, which you have said are correct, would have a true and correct version of all that you know about the matter we have been talking about?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Is there anything that you can think of that is not contained in either your deposition or the statements that you have made to the FBI?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Have you anything else to say, Mr. Armstrong?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Not a thing.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, we certainly do thank you.

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Thank you.

TESTIMONY OF MRS. BERTHA CHEEK

The testimony of Mrs. Bertha Cheek was taken at 10:15 a.m., on April 14, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Burt W. Griffin, assistant counsel of the President’s Commission.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me introduce myself. I am Burt Griffin. I am a member of the advisory staff of the General Counsel’s office of the President’s Commission investigating the assassination of President Kennedy. I want to tell you a little bit about the Commission and what our purpose is and so forth, Mrs. Cheek, before we actually get into the taking of the testimony.

The Commission was set up pursuant to an Executive order of President Johnson which was issued on November 30, 1963, and also pursuant to a joint resolution of Congress. Under these two official acts, the Commission has been given authority to take testimony and to promulgate rules and regulations and so forth. Under these rules and regulations, I have been designated to come here to Dallas to take your testimony. Did you receive a letter from the Commission?

Mrs. CHEEK. Yes, I did.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I might tell you that under--I don’t know when you received this letter, but under the rules of the Commission, you are entitled to have 3 days’ written notice, a letter from us 3 days before you appear here to testify, and I presume that the letter arrived in time so that you have had that notice?

Mrs. CHEEK. Saturday.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Saturday. Now, also the Commission’s rules provide that if you would like an attorney, that you may be accompanied here by an attorney, and I notice that you don’t have one.

I did want to acquaint you with this fact, and I presume that since you don’t have one, that you felt you didn’t need one. But if you do feel you would like a personal attorney, and many of the people who appear do have an attorney, that is perfectly proper, and in fact it is encouraged by the Commission. But I take it by your presence without an attorney, that you don’t feel you want one at the present time.

Mrs. CHEEK. I don’t think that I would need one. I don’t know anything.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, I am not suggesting that you would, but I wanted you to be acquainted.

Mrs. CHEEK. I am not going to tell anything that is not the truth.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me say this to you, that the Commission has been set up for the purpose of investigating and evaluating and reporting back to President Johnson about the assassination of President Kennedy, and about the murder of Lee Harvey Oswald. We are interested in finding out from you, in particular, anything you might know in connection with any one of these events.

Of course you have been interviewed by the Federal Bureau of Investigation so that that is somewhat of a starting point for us. I have had a chance to read over the reports and I know generally what they have talked to you about. I will ask you if you have any questions of us before I ask you to be sworn, and then we can start the deposition.

Mrs. CHEEK. I don’t have any questions. You just ask me, and I will answer whatever I know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you raise your right hand. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mrs. CHEEK. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you give us your name.

Mrs. CHEEK. Bertha Cheek.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where do you live, Mrs. Cheek?

Mrs. CHEEK. 5901 Hillcrest.

Mr. GRIFFIN. It is Mrs. Cheek?

Mrs. CHEEK. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What is your husband’s name?

Mrs. CHEEK. I am divorced. Lloyd Cheek.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long have you been divorced from Mr. Cheek?

Mrs. CHEEK. Approximately 1955 or approximately 1956, I can’t remember.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I hate to ask this question of a lady, but when were you born?

Mrs. CHEEK. February 9, 1920.

Mr. GRIFFIN. The address you gave us is in Dallas?

Mrs. CHEEK. 5901 Hillcrest, Dallas, Tex.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long have you lived in Dallas?

Mrs. CHEEK. About 16 or 17 years.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did you live before you lived in Dallas?

Mrs. CHEEK. I was born in Troup, Tex., and I was raised in Tyler, and I moved to Dallas.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now since you have lived in Dallas, have you met Jack Ruby?

Mrs. CHEEK. I met him on two occasions.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you first happen to meet Jack?

Mrs. CHEEK. He called me to invest in a nightclub.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When was that?

Mrs. CHEEK. Oh, sometime in November, the latter part of November, I think it was.

Mr. GRIFFIN. The first time?

Mrs. CHEEK. The first time I don’t remember. Just what year it might have been, could have been 1957 or 1958, I don’t know. Whenever he was over here in the Carousel, and he was trying to sell half of it, and I talked to him about it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. He owned the Carousel at the time he called you the first time?

Mrs. CHEEK. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he want to sell you half of the Carousel?

Mrs. CHEEK. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Had you invested in any nightclubs before?

Mrs. CHEEK. No; but I am in the real estate business, and I invest in properties all the time.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. How long have you been in the real estate business?

Mrs. CHEEK. Seventeen years.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have a broker’s license?

Mrs. CHEEK. Yes; I do.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What is the name of your business?

Mrs. CHEEK. Bertha Cheek. I just go by my own name.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you maintain an office any place?

Mrs. CHEEK. In my home. I usually sell my own property. Buy and sell. I handle other people’s property at times, but very seldom.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What kind of real estate do you handle?

Mrs. CHEEK. Residential real estate, apartments, and houses and lots.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How many homes or pieces of real estate have you sold outside of your own real estate?

Mrs. CHEEK. I don’t remember.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you give us some sort of estimate how many that would be?

Mrs. CHEEK. I really couldn’t give you an estimate because I don’t know. It’s been very little.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would it be as many as 10 pieces of real estate other than your own?

Mrs. CHEEK. No; not that many.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you own the address that you are presently living in?

Mrs. CHEEK. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that a rooming house that you are in?

Mrs. CHEEK. No. I have a couple of rooms rented to SMU students.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long have you lived at your present address?

Mrs. CHEEK. I moved there in January. Bought it in August.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. And prior to January--is that of this year, January 1964?

Mrs. CHEEK. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did you live prior to January 1964?

Mrs. CHEEK. Swiss. 3914 Swiss. I have a 10-unit there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You still own that?

Mrs. CHEEK. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did you own that particular residence? How long have you owned that particular residence on Swiss Avenue?

Mrs. CHEEK. Three or four years.

Mr. GRIFFIN. During the 3 or 4 years that you have owned that particular residence, have you owned any other pieces of property?

Mrs. CHEEK. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Any other places that you rent out rooms?

Mrs. CHEEK. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Could you tell us what those were?

Mrs. CHEEK. 5430 Gaston; 5310 Gaston; 5212 Gaston; 5302 Gaston; 591--wait just a minute--5917 Gaston; the Beachcomber and the Holiday Apartments.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, where did you live prior to living at the Swiss Avenue address?

Mrs. CHEEK. At the Beachcomber and the Holiday Apartments, Gaston Avenue.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall where you were living in 1958?

Mrs. CHEEK. 5302 Gaston.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now in 1958, what pieces of real estate did you own other than 5308, the one you just mentioned?

Mrs. CHEEK. 5302.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What pieces of real estate did you own in 1958, other than that?

Mrs. CHEEK. I don’t know. I would have to go back. I have owned quite a bit of property.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you maintain a set of records as to the property?

Mrs. CHEEK. That I own at the present.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Or that you have owned over the years?

Mrs. CHEEK. On the courthouse records, just to go down and check.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about rental records for those places that you have rented out rooms and suites, do you maintain records for those?

Mrs. CHEEK. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How far back do your records go?

Mrs. CHEEK. I have them back to 1947.

Mr. GRIFFIN. We haven’t asked you to bring any records.

Mrs. CHEEK. Not down here, I couldn’t bring them all.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I am wondering if----

Mrs. CHEEK. The man went through those records at the house. I let them go all through whatever they wanted to when they came out.

Mr. GRIFFIN. The Federal Bureau of Investigation?

Mrs. CHEEK. Yes. And I told them what connection I had in connection with Jack Ruby. He asked me to put $6,000 in a nightclub.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I am wondering if I could ask you if you will make those records available again?

I think what I would like to do is ask one of the Secret Service agents to go out there and either make some arrangements to photocopy them and then return them to you, or else if it would be more convenient to let me look at them for some short period of time, and then return them to you. I think I would prefer to photocopy them, unless they are voluminous and it would be prohibitive. I think I would only be going back to January 1959.

Mrs. CHEEK. Those two men went through everything I had and looked at it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you object if I----

Mrs. CHEEK. It is just an awful lot of trouble for me right now because I am very busy and I have illness in my home. If I thought I could help you, and really if there is anything there, I would bring them down myself to you.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I would like to do this in a way that would be least inconvenient.

Mrs. CHEEK. But I don’t know Oswald and I just knew Jack Ruby when he asked me to invest $6,000 and I didn’t do it. I didn’t like the way he wanted me to invest. He wanted to put in $1,000, and me $6,000.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What would be the least inconvenient way to do this? If perhaps all the books are in one place, we could get the books from January 1, 1959, on to the present and photocopy them in a day and then return them to you. Would that be convenient?

Mrs. CHEEK. I have them stored, is the only thing. I have a lot of things in front, and it is difficult in digging it out, you know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I suppose really--is there going to be anytime in the next week or so that would be more convenient for you than any other time?

Mrs. CHEEK. I really don’t know of anything else. My daughter has cancer. She may be well and she may not be, I don’t know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me ask you this. Would you retain these records, and sometime during the next month, let me ask one of the agents to contact you again in connection with getting copies of them for us, and you could work out at that time what would be most convenient to you. If you don’t like it that way, then suggest it some other way, because I want to do this some way that would be least inconvenient to you.

Mrs. CHEEK. Well, you are welcome to come to see them again as far as that is concerned, but I don’t want to let them go out of my hands. I am not going to let them go from me, because if some of those things are missing, it is my fault. The men can come out there any time and look them over if they want to look them over and take pictures or whatever they may want to do, or copy them all off. They can come out there and just copy every name that I have ever had or ever rented to from the time of 1947, if they would like.

Mr. GRIFFIN. If this were done at your home, that would be the best so far as you are concerned?

Mrs. CHEEK. Yes; I will have to go get them. I never have moved them from Swiss Avenue, and they are in the storage house. I will have to go over and get them and bring them over to Hillcrest.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How many different boxes are we talking about?

Mrs. CHEEK. Everything I have ever owned, I guess is what I was going to give you. That is what I did before. Every record I have, every name that I ever rented to, I give it to the men that was out there and you may have them now.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I am sure we don’t want to go back that far. Well, let me see what we can work out, with the Secret Service or the Bureau, and then I will either contact you myself about it or I will ask someone of the agents to do it, and I think it could be done fairly simply. I know in the past that photographers can set the camera on a kitchen table and run these things through. I take it then when Jack Ruby contacted you in connection with buying out a part of the Carousel Club, that he got your name from somebody?

Mrs. CHEEK. I was looking at a piece of property over on Maple Avenue when Olen Alexander or Bob Shockley, two more agents called me about buying the place myself. I went over to look at the building and they asked me what would go in the building, and I think a nice nightclub, it is in the neighborhood like it would, so I guess they gave it to Jack Ruby because when I mentioned the nightclub, because I said I might even invest in it myself, I was so sold on it, so Jack Ruby called me and asked me if I would invest in it. Not this particular piece of property. He didn’t tell me where he had this location, but I just know that that was how he got my name.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, are we talking about your most recent discussion with Jack or the first one?

Mrs. CHEEK. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let’s talk about the first time you contacted Jack.

Mrs. CHEEK. He had it for sale.

Mr. GRIFFIN. He had the Carousel for sale?

Mrs. CHEEK. Yes; and I had someone that was interested in a night club, so I went down to see about it, see how much he would sell it for, and he said $12,500. I said that was too much. My conversation was very short, and I left.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right, you met him at the Carousel?

Mrs. CHEEK. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was anybody with him at that time? Anybody else at this meeting?

Mrs. CHEEK. There was activity all in there. I don’t know who the people were.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did anybody accompany you in connection with this?

Mrs. CHEEK. Yes; I think Mrs. Davidson went down with me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Davidson? What is her first name?

Mrs. CHEEK. Lula B. Davidson.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Does she live here in Dallas?

Mrs. CHEEK. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where does she live?

Mrs. CHEEK. Over on Normandy.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is she in the real estate business?

Mrs. CHEEK. No. She was a schoolteacher of mine. Just happened to be at the house when I started to go down, and I asked her if she would like to go. She taught me in school in Tyler, Tex. I don’t think that she would remember too much about it, because it was such a--just went down with me. It wasn’t a real big issue made, and I said, “Would you like to go with me to see about a nightclub,” and she said, “Yes; I would.” So I just walked up and talked to Jack Ruby and asked him how much he wanted for the club’s half interest, and he said $12,500, and I left because I didn’t think it was worth it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Had Jack had an advertisement in the newspaper about this?

Mrs. CHEEK. Yes; he did.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, when you first called Jack, what did he tell you when you talked to him over the telephone that time?

Mrs. CHEEK. I don’t remember the exact words. I usually tell people when I contact them about business, I would like to meet them in their office or in their place of business.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you make an appointment and go down? You didn’t talk to him about what he wanted or what kind of property he had over the telephone?

Mrs. CHEEK. No; didn’t make any discussion.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack’s ad indicate he was selling the full interest, or half interest?

Mrs. CHEEK. Half, and he wanted a partner.

Mr. GRIFFIN. So you would have been a partner?

Mrs. CHEEK. No; I wouldn’t. When I invest, I make a corporation out of it, or someone else operates the business for me. That is the way the rooming houses; I have managers in them.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack talk to you about how much he was making off of this business?

Mrs. CHEEK. No. He might have talked to me about that, but I don’t remember the exact figures.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you come to the conclusion that his price was too high?

Mrs. CHEEK. I just thought it was too high. I could build a club for that. I know the prices of material.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Jack was only interested in selling an interest in the real estate at that time, or was he interested in the----

Mrs. CHEEK. The business. He didn’t have the real estate. He didn’t have the building. It was just the business he was selling half interest in it. I could buy a place for that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. So you would have been interested in the profitability of Jack’s particular business?

Mrs. CHEEK. No; not his particular business. I didn’t know what kind of club he was operating out there. I thought it was a dance place and cocktail lounge.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But in order to determine whether the twelve thousand price was too high and you weren’t going to get any real estate out of it, you were going to share in the profits from the club, you would have to know something about how much money he was making off the club?

Mrs. CHEEK. I don’t remember how much he was making.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You did talk to him; didn’t you?

Mrs. CHEEK. Yes; I talked to him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. He said he wanted $12,500 for half of the business?

Mrs. CHEEK. I didn’t look at the books. I didn’t even go into that because I didn’t want to put $12,500 into that kind of club.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did you talk to him on this occasion?

Mrs. CHEEK. It wasn’t very long.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you talk to him for 3 hours?

Mrs. CHEEK. I just don’t know how long I talked to him the first time, because it’s been so long ago. But the last time I stayed down there, I think, an hour or so or 3. It might have been 3 hours or 2 hours, because he brought in this other fellow named Frank, his interior decorator, or that decorated the club, and I talked to him, and he was telling me what a nice fellow he was, because I didn’t know Jack Ruby very well.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was Frank’s name Frank Fisher? Do you remember that name?

Mrs. CHEEK. No; I don’t know. He just kept referring to him as Frank.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know whether this fellow was in business for himself or whether he worked with somebody, this Frank fellow?

Mrs. CHEEK. I don’t know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever hear the name of whom he might have been employed by?

Mrs. CHEEK. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now as I understand it, Jack at this particular time got your name through somebody, a fellow by the name of Alexander, or another fellow that you talked to in connection with buying a club?

Mrs. CHEEK. Olen Alexander.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where was the club?

Mrs. CHEEK. I don’t know that to be the truth, but I just thought that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where was the club that you were looking at?

Mrs. CHEEK. It wasn’t a club. It was a building that they were showing.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where was that located?

Mrs. CHEEK. On Maple.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you ever had an interest in any nightclub or dancehall?

Mrs. CHEEK. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. About what time of the day or night was it that you met with Jack this last occasion?

Mrs. CHEEK. 2 o’clock in the evening.

Mr. GRIFFIN. In the afternoon?

Mrs. CHEEK. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. This was at the Carousel?

Mrs. CHEEK. Yes; in his office.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When Jack called you, what did he say to you?

Mrs. CHEEK. Said he had a business deal that he wanted to talk over with me. I said, “What kind is it?”

And he said, “A club.” And asked me to come down to talk to him about it, and I did.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he indicate at the time he called you how much money he wanted you to invest?

Mrs. CHEEK. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now when you got down there to talk to him, what did he say and what did you say? Try to recall as best you can how this conversation was.

Mrs. CHEEK. He said he had a location for a club and he wanted me to put in $6,000 and he’d put $1,000 and he would use his talent and ability to operate a club, and he knew really how to run one and operate one.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he indicate what sort of return he expected?

Mrs. CHEEK. Fifty-fifty.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Each would have a half interest in the club?

Mrs. CHEEK. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he indicate how much of a return you would make for your $6,000?

Mrs. CHEEK. No; he didn’t. He couldn’t even tell me the location of the place, because I asked him that, kept questioning him about where is the location, and he didn’t want to tell me that. And I asked him why, and he said, “Well, he just couldn’t tell me right then.” And I said, “Is it because you think I might go around and sell this place or try to buy it myself?” And he said, “Yes, that is the reason.”

He said, “How would you do about anything like that?” And I said, “Well, you tie it up. Put some money up on it.”

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did it sound like Jack was interested in buying a piece of real estate, or was he going to get a lease and operate in a leased building, or what?

Mrs. CHEEK. He didn’t go into that. He just kept talking about how he could operate a club, how much money could be made, you know, and he introduced me to this other fellow and talked about what a good interior decorator he was and how he would decorate the club.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did the interior decorator say?

Mrs. CHEEK. Then the man was telling me what a good operator he was.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he tell you anything about his experience in other places he decorated?

Mrs. CHEEK. Yes; one or two places; but I really didn’t pay any attention to what locations. I was just listening to Mr. Ruby on what his deal was on the investment I was supposed to make, and whether or not I would like it or not, and I told him I could manage a business, too. And I said, “I don’t think that I would want to go in with anyone and put $6,000 and you put $1,000. You would have to come fifty-fifty.”

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did Jack indicate was his response?

Mrs. CHEEK. He said he couldn’t do it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Could you tell from his response whether he meant that he didn’t want to do it or that he couldn’t afford to do it, or what he meant by that?

Mrs. CHEEK. Well, he did say he didn’t have the money.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he say he didn’t have the money?

Mrs. CHEEK. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now had you inquired about Jack Ruby from other people?

Mrs. CHEEK. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You mean now you only met him?

Mrs. CHEEK. I had heard people talk about Jack Ruby, but I didn’t inquire about him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I take it other people that you know had told you things about Jack Ruby?

Mrs. CHEEK. Yes. I have heard people talk about him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What had you heard about Jack prior to the time you went to talk to him about this club where he wouldn’t tell you where it was located?

Mrs. CHEEK. I haven’t heard anything except he ran the Carousel Club and was a good operator.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You had heard what kind of businessman he was? How well he ran his business?

Mrs. CHEEK. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Had you heard whether he was honest or dishonest?

Mrs. CHEEK. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you tell us what you heard?

Mrs. CHEEK. I just knew he run a club and I heard people say that he was a good operator, and I figured if he was a good operator and made money, he must have been a good businessman. You don’t make money unless you are a good operator.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall who it was that told you Jack was a good operator?

Mrs. CHEEK. I don’t recall right off.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I take it you had the impression that Jack was able to make money off of his operations?

Mrs. CHEEK. That’s right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, do any of your friends or acquaintances or tenants know Jack Ruby?

Mrs. CHEEK. Not that I know of.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall at all who it might have been that had known Jack well enough to tell you that he was running his business well?

Mrs. CHEEK. I think it was a policeman that had rented from me that I had talked to occasionally and said something about Jack Ruby’s place. I don’t know just who it was that told me, and their name. I would be talking to someone sometime, and I can’t remember their names to save my life.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What was the name of the policeman?

Mrs. CHEEK. I don’t know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you had a number of policemen rent from you?

Mrs. CHEEK. I think Mr. Olson said something--I am not sure of the name--on the police force. I wouldn’t like to say anything else unless I know for sure I can give the exact name and address. I just heard this conversation.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well----

Mrs. CHEEK. See.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When did the police officer whose name might have been Olson, when did he rent from you?

Mrs. CHEEK. Beachcomber in 1961 or 1960, I believe.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did he continue to rent from you?

Mrs. CHEEK. I don’t think he rented there very long, 3 or 4 months. But this was after. Let’s see, no, it wasn’t after. That was after the first time I had met him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, other than Mr. Olson, you don’t know of anybody else of your acquaintances or tenants who knew Jack Ruby?

Mrs. CHEEK. No. You know, his name has been in the paper and his advertising; and I am sure a lot of people had heard about him and go to the club, but I had never gone to the club.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now did your husband know Jack Ruby? Mr. Cheek, did he know Jack Ruby?

Mrs. CHEEK. No. I don’t know whether he did or not. He may know Jack Ruby because he is a National Cash Register man downtown that fixes all of the cash registers. He might have gone up and worked on a cash register. I really don’t know. I haven’t asked him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. The FBI talked with you sometime ago. I believe you indicated that you had some recollection that some Cubans had rented from you back in 1959, two Cubans had rented from you?

Mrs. CHEEK. I don’t know just exactly what was said on that, whether they got that off of the books or whether my sister had told them about it, that rented to Oswald over on Beckley.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mrs. CHEEK. Mrs. Roberts or Miss Roberts--Mrs. Roberts--

Mr. GRIFFIN. Miss?

Mrs. CHEEK. Mrs. Roberts. I don’t know whether she told me about that or if they got it off the book, or whether I had rented to a Cuban. I think one or two, and also Dr. Florescent of the Philippine Islands.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Tell us what recollection you have of the Cubans that you rented to.

Mrs. CHEEK. I don’t remember them because I had managers in there. I wouldn’t know them personally myself at all.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I want to hand you, Mrs. Cheek, a document which consists of 3 pages, and it purports to be an interview report prepared by two agents of the Federal Bureau of Investigation, Mr. Barry and Mr. Kelley. This is supposed to have been a copy of a report of interview which they had with you on November 27, 1963. Maybe if you will look this over, you may recall it is reported in here that at that time--I will read it:

“That she recalled having rented to two Cuban males, in 1959 or 1960, but could provide no other information concerning them.” Why don’t you take your time and read that whole thing over, because I am interested in finding out whether the whole report is an accurate report of that interview.

Mrs. CHEEK. I owned this boarding house at 5212 Gaston since 1948 to about 1961.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What does it say?

Mrs. CHEEK. It says 1956 to 1961.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You want to take Miss Laidrich’s pen and make a change there to reflect the period that you actually owned that boarding house, the actual period?

Mrs. CHEEK. [Makes correction.]

Mr. GRIFFIN. And you sold it in 1961?

Mrs. CHEEK. I think that is about the date that I sold it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you want to initial that change there that you made and put a date by it?

Mrs. CHEEK. [Initials and dates.]