Chapter XXX: Part 30

Mr. HUBERT. Wasn’t there a man to help?

Mr. CRAFARD. I took care of that mostly myself.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know a man by the name of Howard who used to do that stuff?

Mr. CRAFARD. Howard was a maintenance man.

Mr. HUBERT. What did he do?

Mr. CRAFARD. Just maintenance, upkeep of the building.

Mr. HUBERT. He didn’t do the actual janitorial work?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Cleaning up the cigarettes and that sort of thing?

Mr. CRAFARD. He had a young fellow by the name of Andrew who was his assistant manager.

Mr. HUBERT. Is that Andrew Armstrong?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. When I first went there, Andrew was doing the cleaning up and then I started helping him, and then I had been there for about 2 weeks and I was doing all the cleaning up by myself.

Mr. HUBERT. The club usually closed you say about 2 or 3 in the morning?

Mr. CRAFARD. No; the club usually closed, I believe it was 1:30 or 2 o’clock in the morning the club closed.

Mr. HUBERT. You would get to bed about 2:30 or 3 o’clock?

Mr. CRAFARD. Before everybody got out of there it would be 2:30, 3 o’clock.

Mr. HUBERT. Then you went to bed?

Mr. CRAFARD. Then I went to bed.

Mr. HUBERT. How long did the cleaning up job usually take?

Mr. CRAFARD. If I started cleaning up at 9 o’clock I would be finished by 11:30.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, you had 2½ hours?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Were you then usually free?

Mr. CRAFARD. No. Jack would come in about 11:30 and be there 2 or 3 hours. After he left I had to stay there and answer the phone.

Mr. HUBERT. The club wasn’t open then, was it?

Mr. CRAFARD. No, the club didn’t open until 7:30 at night.

Mr. HUBERT. So your duties were to clean up as soon as you got up and that took 2½ or 3 hours and then just to stay there answering phone calls?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Where did you go to eat?

Mr. CRAFARD. Most of the time I eat at the Walgreen drugstore catercornered across the street.

Mr. HUBERT. And you say you just took some money out of the cash register for that purpose?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Did Jack permit you to do that?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, he told me; otherwise, I wouldn’t have done so.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he have any limitation on how much to take?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. HUBERT. How much did it amount to?

Mr. CRAFARD. It usually amounted to $4, $5, maybe $6 a day, what with my cigarettes and what I ate.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you have any time off for yourself at all?

Mr. CRAFARD. A couple of nights after the club closed we went out to, he took us out to, the Vegas Club. We were out there until about 3 o’clock in the morning. And I had a couple of times I could, Andy was around the club and I could take off in the afternoon if Andy was around the club.

Mr. HUBERT. What was the purpose of keeping you around the club after your cleanup job was over?

Mr. CRAFARD. So far as I understand just mostly answer the phone.

Mr. HUBERT. Were there many phone calls to be answered?

Mr. CRAFARD. There was quite a few that would come in--generally, usually, people calling in, would start calling in about 1 o’clock for reservations.

Mr. HUBERT. Did Jack give you any instructions as to how you could handle the phone calls?

Mr. CRAFARD. He told me to answer the phone and ask them what they wanted, and if they had a message for Jack so they could give me a number for him to call back. If they had a reservation, how to take a reservation.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you have to make notations about it?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, I had a notebook there at the club.

Mr. HUBERT. So that when he called in you would just tell him who had called?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he sometimes give you instructions as to things you were to do?

Mr. CRAFARD. Not unless it was--a couple of times he told me to feed the dogs or something like that--when he would call in, he would ask me if I fed the dogs.

Mr. HUBERT. Where were they kept?

Mr. CRAFARD. They were kept in a room behind the kitchen area, a storeroom.

Mr. HUBERT. How many were there?

Mr. CRAFARD. When I first went there he had two dogs at the club and then his Sheba that he kept with him all the time.

Mr. HUBERT. You say when you first went he had that many dogs, did that change during the time you were there?

Mr. CRAFARD. About a week before the assassination, a man that he had given the dog to brought the dog back and Jack gave me instructions to check the freight prices to California, a friend of his out there had wanted the dog, and he was going to send it out there. So he gave me instructions to check the freight, how to ship it, and about the crate and food and everything for the dog--to ship it.

Mr. HUBERT. For a period then there were three dogs there?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Was that dog ever shipped to California?

Mr. CRAFARD. Not while I was there; no, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know what the man’s name was who the dog was to be shipped to in California?

Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir; I don’t.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know what place in California?

Mr. CRAFARD. Los Angeles, I believe it was.

Mr. HUBERT. You had to check that to get the rates?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Had you ever seen that man to whom it was to be shipped?

Mr. CRAFARD. Not as far as I--I am not positive I had seen him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have some idea you might have seen him?

Mr. CRAFARD. There was a couple of friends of Jack’s there from California while I was there and it might have been one of them.

Mr. HUBERT. You don’t know their names?

Mr. CRAFARD. No; I don’t remember their names.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember when they were at Jack’s place?

Mr. CRAFARD. As I say, I believe it was about the second or third week I was there with him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were there--you say there were a couple of fellows?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Two or three or how many?

Mr. CRAFARD. I think they come at different times, I believe there was one guy come in one time and then about a week--3 or 4 days later another guy.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But they were both there together for a while?

Mr. CRAFARD. No; I don’t believe so.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. Do you remember anything about the first man who came?

Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir; I couldn’t even identify him if he was to stand in front of me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he spend a lot of time around the club?

Mr. CRAFARD. He wasn’t there too much during the day.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would he come as a patron or was he working when he was there?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe he came in as a guest of Jack’s, a house guest.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you introduced to him, ever introduced to him?

Mr. CRAFARD. Jack introduced me to him the day he came in. I don’t remember his name.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever learn anything about what he did for a living?

Mr. CRAFARD. Not that I can recall.

Mr. GRIFFIN. The second man who came, were you introduced to him?

Mr. CRAFARD. More likely I was, but I don’t recall him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall at all what he looked like, the second man?

Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall at all what the first man looked like?

Mr. CRAFARD. No, I don’t; I saw so many people around the club.

Mr. GRIFFIN. The second man who came, how long did he stay?

Mr. CRAFARD. Saw him around, I think, two different days, two days in a row that he was in the club with Jack.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he come at night or during the day?

Mr. CRAFARD. During the day that I saw him. He might have been there at night but I didn’t notice him if he was.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you pick up that his business might have been there?

Mr. CRAFARD. All I figured, all I knew, was that he had come to see Jack.

Mr. HUBERT. You never heard them conversing?

Mr. CRAFARD. When Jack was talking to somebody I pretty much made it a habit to step back where I couldn’t hear the conversation.

Mr. HUBERT. Why did you do that?

Mr. CRAFARD. I have done that every since I can recall. When I was younger I worked for a fellow and he started talking to somebody and I would stay right there and he got kind of angry a couple of times; so, since then, I have made it a habit to step back where I can’t hear the conversation that is being held.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever hear from Andy Armstrong or anybody else anything about either of these two men?

Mr. CRAFARD. Not that I can recall.

Mr. HUBERT. What makes the visit of these two men a part of your memory now?

Mr. CRAFARD. Just that it was shortly before he had the dogs brought back to him, and he asked me to make arrangements to ship them to California. I believe they were from Los Angeles.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, the fact that you were making preparations to ship the dogs to California, and that they were from California, is the fact that causes you to associate the two, and to remember those two men?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Is that all?

Mr. CRAFARD. That is all I can think of causing the association.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall, Larry, if at any time Jack had a photographer at the club?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; he did for publicity purposes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall where that photographer was from?

Mr. CRAFARD. No; I don’t sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall any--how long was this photographer there?

Mr. CRAFARD. He was around there for 3 or 4 days in the evening before the show was going on. I believe he was from a magazine.

Mr. HUBERT. Was his name Eddie Rocco?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe so.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was this one of the two men you have been talking about from California or were these two men different, from California?

Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t recall; it might have been. He might have been from California. But these two men were not photographers. They come in, it looked to me, it appeared to me to be businessmen, fellows----

Mr. HUBERT. Did they have long conversations with Ruby?

Mr. CRAFARD. Not in my presence. Not when they were around the club. They was never in the club with him more than 5 or 10 minutes when they were there.

Mr. HUBERT. What would happen, they would come in and talk to him?

Mr. CRAFARD. They would come in and he might have some phone calls to make or something and they would stay there while he made the phone calls and then they would leave.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know where they went?

Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Jack would go out with them?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you notice how long they stayed?

Mr. CRAFARD. I wouldn’t know how long they would stay with Jack. He might take off at 11 o’clock in the morning and wouldn’t be back all day.

Mr. HUBERT. What I mean is, do you have any recollection of seeing him leave with one of those men or either of them and then come back with them?

Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t recall him doing so. He might have.

Mr. HUBERT. Have you any recollection that having left with one of those men he came back alone and particularly at what time or how much longer did he come back alone, how much later did he come back alone?

Mr. CRAFARD. I have no recollection of that either. He was--people would come to the club to see him, he would go downstairs, leave with them, and sometimes he would be gone the rest of the afternoon or sometimes he would come back.

Mr. HUBERT. What we would like you to tell us is, what there was about these two men from California that makes their visits there still a part of your memory.

Mr. CRAFARD. Just the fact that shipping the dogs to California, I kind of more or less associated the fact and that they were from Los Angeles.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever gather where they were staying while they were in Dallas?

Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t know.

Mr. HUBERT. Who usually woke you up in the morning over there?

Mr. CRAFARD. Jack would usually call me in the morning.

Mr. HUBERT. About what time?

Mr. CRAFARD. Anywhere from 8 o’clock on.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you have any other way of waking up?

Mr. CRAFARD. Not unless Andrew would come by.

Mr. HUBERT. Was there an arrangement that one of them would wake you so you might commence your work?

Mr. CRAFARD. Jack would usually call me in the morning as soon as he got up.

Mr. HUBERT. Did Armstrong call you sometimes?

Mr. CRAFARD. A couple of times Andy would call me.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know a man by the name of Ralph Paul?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. How did you come to know him?

Mr. CRAFARD. Jack introduced me to him at the club.

Mr. HUBERT. Was he there often?

Mr. CRAFARD. He was there about six or seven times that I can recall. I believe he was a business associate of Jack’s.

Mr. HUBERT. Where did you find that out?

Mr. CRAFARD. He had a drive-in setup, drive-in cafe.

Mr. HUBERT. Where?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe it was out northeastern Texas, somewhere, Dallas, northeastern part of Dallas.

Mr. HUBERT. And you say Jack told you he had an interest in it?

Mr. CRAFARD. Jack said they were associated. He called him his partner all the time.

Mr. HUBERT. Did the man come on particular days of the week or just at random?

Mr. CRAFARD. No. Never knew when he was going to come.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever see Jack give him any money?

Mr. CRAFARD. Not that I recall.

Mr. HUBERT. Is it correct to state then that all you know about whether Paul was or was not an associate is what Jack told you?

Mr. CRAFARD. That is right.

Mr. HUBERT. You observed nothing of your own that would indicate that the man had some property interest in that club or some financial interest?

Mr. CRAFARD. Other than the fact that when he did come Jack and him would go into the office, almost every time he would come they would be in the office, from a half hour to 2 or 3 hours at a time talking.

Mr. HUBERT. But you didn’t know about what?

Mr. CRAFARD. No, I didn’t know about what.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack keep any books?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What kind of books did he keep?

Mr. CRAFARD. As far as I know it was just his receipts and regular tax, regular books, business books.

Mr. HUBERT. You mean ledgers?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Who made the entries in them?

Mr. CRAFARD. It was either Jack Ruby or Andrew. He had an accountant do all his bookkeeping.

Mr. HUBERT. Who was that?

Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t remember who he was.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you see him?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe he was over the place one time while I was there during the day.

Mr. HUBERT. But you don’t know his name?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. HUBERT. He asked for the books?

Mr. CRAFARD. Andy give him some papers.

Mr. HUBERT. Papers or books?

Mr. CRAFARD. Some of the receipts, bar receipts and door receipts.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever see Jack and Ralph Paul go over any books together?

Mr. CRAFARD. No. I just says whenever they was together like that they would be together in the office, the office door would be locked and they would do talking. It was usually during when--during the evening when the club was in operation and I would be out front.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know Eva Grant?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Who is she?

Mr. CRAFARD. She was Jack Ruby’s sister.

Mr. HUBERT. How did you come to meet her?

Mr. CRAFARD. I first met her at the fairgrounds, Jack first introduced me at the fairgrounds and then later I met her at the club.

Mr. HUBERT. How often did you see her?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe I saw Eva about four times.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you get to know her as a person?

Mr. CRAFARD. Not too well.

Mr. HUBERT. On those four occasions how long were you in her company?

Mr. CRAFARD. Just for a few minutes at a time.

Mr. HUBERT. Did she have any interest in Ruby’s affairs?

Mr. CRAFARD. She managed the Vegas Club for Jack.

Mr. HUBERT. Did she have an interest in the Carousel so far as you know?

Mr. CRAFARD. So far as I know; no.

Mr. HUBERT. Jack never told you that she did?

Mr. CRAFARD. No; as far as I knew the Carousel Club was Jack’s as far as I knew.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you give us a physical description of her, how tall was she, how heavy was she?

Mr. CRAFARD. She is an oldish woman, probably weighs maybe 130, 135 pounds, stands probably right around 5′6″, I would say.

Mr. GRIFFIN. So she is not a heavy woman?

Mr. CRAFARD. Not exceptionally heavy, no. For her age she is a real nice-looking woman.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know her age?

Mr. CRAFARD. How is that?

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know her age?

Mr. CRAFARD. No, but I believe she is Jack’s older sister.

Mr. HUBERT. How did you get that information, from Jack?

Mr. CRAFARD. Well, from the way he talked. He had one older sister and a younger sister, and I met the family, the rest of his family at the trial and the other sister was younger than Jack, I knew that.

Mr. HUBERT. You have been to the Vegas, haven’t you?

Mr. CRAFARD. Oh, yes; I was in the Vegas Club on several occasions.

Mr. HUBERT. You worked there?

Mr. CRAFARD. Two nights that I run the Vegas Club myself. One night I was the only one there. The next night I had a waitress there with me.

Mr. HUBERT. You stated that she was the manager of the Vegas Club for Jack?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. How did you get that information?

Mr. CRAFARD. Jack said she was managing the club for him.

Mr. HUBERT. Were you there when she was there?

Mr. CRAFARD. I was there a couple of evenings after the Carousel Club closed we went over there to Vegas Club and she was there.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know a man by the name of George Senator?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Who was he?

Mr. CRAFARD. He was a friend of Jack’s he was with Jack quite often.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, how often?

Mr. CRAFARD. He would come into the club with Jack three or four times a week anyway.

Mr. HUBERT. You mean when they would come in at night or in the afternoon this man Senator would be with him?

Mr. CRAFARD. It would be maybe during the day or maybe in the evenings.

Mr. HUBERT. Can you give us a description of him?

Mr. CRAFARD. He is a kind of heavy-set fellow about 5′4″, 5′5″.

Mr. HUBERT. A very short man?

Mr. CRAFARD. Fairly short. Wasn’t much taller than Jack. He probably would, I would say, probably would weigh about 180, 185.

Mr. HUBERT. Fat or husky?

Mr. CRAFARD. Kind of on the fat side.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he have a limp?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe he did, I am not sure.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know anything else about the relationship between him and Jack?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe him and Jack, he was rooming with Jack, I believe.

Mr. HUBERT. Were you ever at Jack’s apartment?

Mr. CRAFARD. I was over to Jack’s apartment on two different occasions.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you see then any evidence that they were living together?

Mr. CRAFARD. The only thing I knew for certain when I was over there there was a two-bedroom apartment living room, kitchen and two bedrooms and he told me that one bedroom was George’s room.

Mr. HUBERT. Ruby told you that?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever see George at the apartment?

Mr. CRAFARD. Not that I can recall.

Mr. HUBERT. You only went there twice?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe I was there three times all told. I was there for a few minutes and then leave.

Mr. HUBERT. And you never saw Senator at the club--at the apartment?

Mr. CRAFARD. Not that I can recall.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know if Senator had any financial interest in Jack’s affairs?

Mr Crafard. Not that I know of.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he work for Jack?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe he was on the door a little bit, several times.

Mr. HUBERT. What does working on the door mean?

Mr. CRAFARD. He took the door price, he took the cover charge at the door.

Mr. HUBERT. How about a man named Bill DeMar, do you know him?

Mr. CRAFARD. Bill DeMar was a comedian.

Mr. HUBERT. Was he there when you were there?

Mr. CRAFARD. He came in while I was there, Jack hired him to come in.

Mr. HUBERT. How long did he stay?

Mr. CRAFARD. I think he was there yet when the club was closed, I believe.

Mr. HUBERT. What sort of a fellow was he?

Mr. CRAFARD. He was kind of an easygoing guy. Like most of your real good comedians, he was cracking a joke all the time.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, I gather from what you have told us about your life you can size these people up pretty well.

Mr. CRAFARD. I haven’t only been wrong with my opinion once. I formed an opinion of a person with the first six or seven words they say and I have never been wrong in my life but once.

Mr. HUBERT. What do you think of Bill DeMar as to his truthfulness?

Mr. CRAFARD. He was a kind of a likable guy but to me he just didn’t strike me, I didn’t like him. I got along with him, I associated with him at the club but I wouldn’t want to associate with him as a close friend.

Mr. HUBERT. What was there about him----

Mr. CRAFARD. He didn’t strike me just right.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you think he is a fake?

Mr. CRAFARD. Well, I think 90 percent of him was fake, I would say. He was a fairly decent comedian but his way was “Big me and little you. I am everything and nobody else is anything,” was the way he struck me.

Mr. HUBERT. He was there about how long?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe he was there for about 2 weeks, I am not sure, between 2 and 3 weeks.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever get to converse with him?

Mr. CRAFARD. While he was there in the club I would speak with him, talk with him a little bit.

Mr. HUBERT. There was never any trouble between you, was there?

Mr. CRAFARD. No, there was never any trouble between us. I say he was an easy-going person.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever see Joyce McDonald around there, the girl you previously identified?

Mr. CRAFARD. Joy was working on the stage.

Mr. HUBERT. What was she doing?

Mr. CRAFARD. She was a stripper.

Mr. HUBERT. What was the relationship between her and Jack, do you know?

Mr. CRAFARD. That of boss and employee.

Mr. HUBERT. You never observed anything else?

Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. She was with him a lot, though, personally?

Mr. CRAFARD. She would talk with him around the club that I could see. She would talk with Jack.

Mr. HUBERT. Didn’t she go out to dinner with him?

Mr. CRAFARD. To my knowledge, no.

Mr. HUBERT. Some time?

Mr. CRAFARD. She might have. I heard Jack make the remark at one time that he had been involved with every one of the girls that worked for him at one time.

Mr. HUBERT. You heard him say that?

Mr. CRAFARD. He made the remark to me because of one of the waitresses worked for him was a real sweet-looking girl and she had a real wonderful personality.

Mr. HUBERT. Who was that?

Mr. CRAFARD. Marge, that is the only name I know her by, I don’t know her last name.

Mr. HUBERT. She was a stripper?

Mr. CRAFARD. She was a waitress.

Mr. HUBERT. So what about Marge?

Mr. CRAFARD. How is that?

Mr. HUBERT. What about Marge?

Mr. CRAFARD. I said something, going out with her or something and he made the statement that he had had a relationship with everyone of the girls who worked for him.

Mr. HUBERT. When you say relationship or when he said it, you did understand him to refer to sexual relationship?

Mr. CRAFARD. Sexual relationship.

Mr. HUBERT. There can be no doubt about that?

Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. What did you infer from that remark of his relative to the remark you had made about your interest in Marge?

Mr. CRAFARD. Well, it would--my remark had been on the sexual basis.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, did you regard that as sort of a consent on his part for you to go ahead?

Mr. CRAFARD. No. He didn’t want me to go, to have anything to do with any of the girls that worked for him.

Mr. HUBERT. So that in effect he was telling you that he was the one who was to have the sexual relationships with the girls and not anyone else?

Mr. CRAFARD. That is about the effect of it.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he say it as clearly as that?

Mr. CRAFARD. No; he didn’t say it in so many words, but just an implied statement.

Mr. HUBERT. That is the meaning you got out of that colloquy, is that right?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you tell us as best you can remember what the conversation was?

Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t know. I said something about I would like to get ahold of that or something, and Jack said, he said, he had already gotten into it or something like that, and something said about his girls, and I said so far as I am concerned--at that time it was a little later after I went to work for him--I said, “As far as I am concerned you haven’t got a stripper I am interested in,” and he said, “I have had a relationship with every one of them.”

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you think Jack was puffing on that or did you believe him?

Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t know. As far as the strippers went I can very well believe that but the waitresses it was pretty hard to believe because little Marge, she ended up marrying a guy, and she was pretty stiff on him, and in fact, so much that I have tried everything I could to get her even to go out with me and she wouldn’t do it. And the other girls didn’t seem too much to me like the type that would do so.

Mr. HUBERT. You did have a girl you went out with you used to meet at the Eatwell?

Mr. CRAFARD. One of the girls who worked for Jack.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What was her name?

Mr. CRAFARD. She went to work for him later, I can’t even remember her name now. The only one of the bunch I can remember, there were three girls there roomed together, the only one I can remember is Norma, and I first got acquainted with her was over the telephone and we had quite a conversation, and we became rather friendly over the telephone and when we met we was fairly friendly.

Mr. HUBERT. Did she work for Jack?

Mr. CRAFARD. No; Jack tried to get her to work as a stripper which he would do with every female, every nice-looking girl, that he met. She would have nothing to do with it.

Mr. HUBERT. So you had this conversation with her on the telephone? Did you get to meet her?

Mr. CRAFARD. I met her at the club; yes. I met her in person and then I got to know her fairly well. We was together several times.

Mr. HUBERT. You mean on private dates?

Mr. CRAFARD. Well, it would be her and these other two girls. I was with the other girl mostly, and we would go over together and three of us sit together while we eat, and I would walk the girls home, something like that. They would come to the club and the club would close and I would walk this other girl home.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, there were two girls who worked for the club?

Mr. CRAFARD. No; only one worked for the club.

Mr. HUBERT. Which one was that, it was not Norma?

Mr. CRAFARD. Norma----

Mr. HUBERT. What was her name?

Mr. CRAFARD. I can’t remember that girl’s name. I can’t remember the girl’s name. She was a woman of about 29 years old, she had a real nice personality and was a wonderful person to talk to, all it was, just nice person to talk to and relax and just have an enjoyable time away from the club.

Mr. HUBERT. That was the one who was the waitress?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir; she was a cocktail waitress at the club. I knew her and her one girl friend were from back east somewhere and I met Norma back at the club.

Mr. HUBERT. Had Norma ever worked for the club?

Mr. CRAFARD. No. Jack was trying to get her to work for the club, was trying to get her to work as a stripper.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is Norma the girl you dated or saw quite a bit of?

Mr. CRAFARD. I saw her on two or three occasions before this other girl went to work for Jack.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And Norma is not a native of Dallas?

Mr. CRAFARD. She is a native of the Dallas area. Her home is about 20 miles north of Dallas, Carrollton, Tex.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever go out there?

Mr. CRAFARD. No; I never went out there.

Mr. HUBERT. How did you know it was out there? How did you find out?

Mr. CRAFARD. She give me her address, address and phone number.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have that in the book you maintained for Jack?

Mr. CRAFARD. That was the reason for getting the phone and address. She called and inquired for a job, and I got her address and phone number which I do with all girls who come for a job.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How do you know Jack tried to get her to be a stripper?

Mr. CRAFARD. He had her at the club on several occasions talking her into being a stripper. He got her a job with Ralph Paul and he give her clothes and he gave her money and I went over with her to one store where to buy clothes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Jack bought her the clothes?

Mr. CRAFARD. He give me the money to buy the clothes.

Mr. HUBERT. How much was the amount?

Mr. CRAFARD. $10 bill, I believe, at that time. Two or three times he bought clothes for the girl.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Ten dollar bill?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. She couldn’t buy much with a $10 bill.

Mr. CRAFARD. She needed certain kinds of clothes, slacks and a blouse to work in when she went to work for Ralph Paul.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know what work she had been doing before she came to work for Paul?

Mr. CRAFARD. No; all I know she had been on several occasions in the club with Jack. They were pretty thick for a while, and then something happened between them to where she wouldn’t have anything to do with Jack.

Mr. HUBERT. But you don’t know what it was that happened?

Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir; I have no definite knowledge.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have some idea?

Mr. CRAFARD. I have an opinion; yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you give us an idea?

Mr. CRAFARD. He was making a big play for her, and my opinion is he got out of hand and she put a stop to it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there anything else said by someone else that led you to believe it?

Mr. CRAFARD. Mostly she referred to it. She inferred it happened.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What would be getting out of hand in that situation, would it be simply Jack wanting to go to bed with her or would it be some unusual kind of sexual relations?

Mr. CRAFARD. No; I would say wanting to go to bed with her as far as my knowledge. From what I knew of Norma she was a pretty decent girl. She was a little wild but she was a fairly decent girl.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How old a girl would you say she was?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe Norma was 18. She was a very friendly person, easy to like.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you have a girl who worked at the Eatwell Restaurant that you dated?

Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. But you did go to the Eatwell Restaurant on Main Street, I think it was?

Mr. CRAFARD. It was on Commerce.

Mr. HUBERT. Commerce.

Mr. CRAFARD. I went there most of the time for my meals. It was, meals were cheap, nice place to go to, it was close, and I sat around there and joked with the girls and the one guy who worked in there I got acquainted with him a little bit.

Mr. HUBERT. How many girls in the club went there?

Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t believe the girls in the club went there to eat often.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know a man by the name of Huey Reeves?

Mr. CRAFARD. The name isn’t familiar to me.

Mr. HUBERT. Would it help you if I suggested that he worked at the Nichol’s Garage next door?

Mr. CRAFARD. That would be the colored boy, I believe.

Mr. HUBERT. No; this was a white man.

Mr. CRAFARD. On a couple of occasions I sat in there and talked to him a couple of nights. We would sit in there and talk, maybe have a beer or two.

Mr. HUBERT. Beer or two where? At the Eatwell?

Mr. CRAFARD. No; the garage. In the office.

Mr. HUBERT. While you were there, who do you think were Ruby’s best friends other than his business acquaintances?

Mr. CRAFARD. Oh, man, the man I seen him with mostly was Senator, that I know of him being was Senator, and Ralph Paul.

Mr. HUBERT. What about girl friends?

Mr. CRAFARD. He had one girl, I believe her name was Linda or something, she was a blond, she was a real nice looking girl that he went with quite a few times.

Mr. HUBERT. Was she a stripper?

Mr. CRAFARD. No; she didn’t work for him.

Mr. HUBERT. You don’t know her first name?

Mr. CRAFARD. I am not positive of her name. I don’t recall her name. Names is something to me that doesn’t mean much. I meet so many people.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember the two fellows who ran the Eatwell Restaurant?

Mr. CRAFARD. Not too well.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were there a couple of older men?

Mr. CRAFARD. One older man that worked behind the counter in the evenings.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack also eat at the Eatwell?

Mr. CRAFARD. He didn’t eat there when I was there with him, after I went to work for him. I understood the guy knew Jack real well, in fact he got in the habit of calling me Jack Ruby, Jr., or Little Ruby, in a kind of teasing manner. He was a very friendly person.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was that the older man?

Mr. CRAFARD. He was an older man; I believe the oldest man that I saw there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You don’t recall his name, first name, do you?

Mr. CRAFARD. No; I don’t recall his first name.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was one of the fellows in there called Jimmy, that you recall?

Mr. CRAFARD. Not that I recall. There is one of those messes of pictures I would like to get hold of. There is one side of them I would just as soon get ahold of and tear up.

(Brief recess.)

Mr. HUBERT. You previously mentioned that there was a girl that Jack went out with socially.

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Did I understand you correctly that you said she did not work at the club?

Mr. CRAFARD. That is right.

Mr. HUBERT. How often did he go out with her, to your knowledge?

Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t know how often. It was quite often.

Mr. HUBERT. How would it come to your attention that he was going out with her?

Mr. CRAFARD. Well, usually he would bring her in to the club with him before they would go, and after his club closed he would take her out to dinner.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you go out to dinner with them?

Mr. CRAFARD. On one occasion, I was at the Vegas, we went over to the Vegas Club, and then the three of us went afterwards and had dinner.

Mr. HUBERT. How do you know other than that one occasion when he went out with her that he took her to dinner?

Mr. CRAFARD. He would say that they was going to be taking her out to dinner.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever see her at his apartment?

Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he ever indicate in any way that she did go to his apartment?

Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir; not to my knowledge.

Mr. HUBERT. I am going to show you what I am marking five photographs on which I am writing as follows: “Washington, D.C., April 8, 1964, Exhibit 5200-A, Deposition of C. L. Crafard.” And I am signing my name below there. On the next picture I am also marking, “Washington, D.C., April 8, 1964, Exhibit 5200-B, Deposition of C. L. Crafard,” and I am placing my name below that. The third picture I am marking “Washington, D.C., April 8, 1964, Exhibit 5200-C, Deposition of C. L. Crafard,” and signing my name below that. On the fourth picture I am marking “Washington, D.C., April 8, 1964, Exhibit 5200-D, Deposition of C. L. Crafard,” and marking my name down on that; and on the fifth picture I am marking “Washington, D.C., April 8, 1964, Exhibit 5200-E, Deposition of C. L. Crafard” and signing my name.

(The pictures referred to were marked Exhibits Nos. 5200-A through E for identification.)

Mr. HUBERT. Now, I ask you to look at the pictures which have been marked for identification as follows: Exhibits 5200-A, 5200-B, 5200-C, 5200-D, and 5200-E, and I ask you if in any one or all of those pictures you can see the girl we have just been talking about, to wit, the girl that Jack took out to dinner and otherwise met socially?

Mr. CRAFARD. Her picture is in every one.

Mr. HUBERT. Her picture is in every one?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Can you identify the one that you are talking about by referring to her dress?

Mr. CRAFARD. In Exhibit A it would be the middle girl wearing a red and white striped dress.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember if it was red and white?

Mr. CRAFARD. No; I don’t remember the color, but it seems to me it would be a stripe, something that people would wear.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, do you remember ever seeing that girl in a red and white dress similar to that dress?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe she was in the club one time with a red and white checkered dress on.

Mr. HUBERT. Not stripes like that?

Mr. CRAFARD. No. It was a softer----

Mr. HUBERT. So your remark that it was red and white was inadvertent, or do you really have any recollection?

Mr. CRAFARD. It would be an inadvertent remark.

Mr. HUBERT. All right. Go on to the next picture and call off the identification mark when you speak of it.

Mr. CRAFARD. Exhibit B, it would be the girl in the middle in the striped dress.

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Mr. CRAFARD. In Exhibit C it would be the girl behind Ruby looking over his shoulder in the striped dress. Exhibit D it would be the girl behind Ruby looking over his shoulder with the striped dress. Exhibit E would be the girl in the middle with the striped dress.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you recognize Ruby in all of these pictures, too?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; I do.

Mr. HUBERT. Who is the other girl?

Mr. CRAFARD. The other girl was one of the strippers in his club.

Mr. HUBERT. What was her name?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe it is Tammi True.

Mr. HUBERT. That girl you have identified in all those pictures as having the striped dress, that is the girl you are talking about whom Ruby used to take out socially?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. And you don’t know her name?

Mr. CRAFARD. Could I say that other girl is Kathy Kay, I am definite of that after looking at her picture closer.

Mr. HUBERT. The blond girl is Kathy Kay?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. So you want to change your opinion expressed a moment ago that it was Tammi True, is that correct?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Prior to the taking of this segment of the deposition dealing with the identification of these photos, I think you had looked at at least one of these photos and could not recognize the girl that you have now recognized as being the companion of Ruby.

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. As being such. Then later you have come to the conclusion that it is the girl. Can you tell us why you have now come to the conclusion that it is the same girl?

Mr. CRAFARD. After looking at the whole group of pictures and the different angles of her head where you can see her features better, I came to the conclusion that is the girl.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, when you first expressed doubt as to whether it was, you were looking at one picture only?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And after having looked at all of those pictures, that is to say five of them as identified, you now are positive that that is the girl?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. I understand you to say you had at least one occasion on which you actually had dinner with Jack and this girl is that correct?

Mr. CRAFARD. That is right.

Mr. HUBERT. Would it be fair to say you were in her company therefore and could see her at close range for a period of at least an hour on that occasion?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. But you don’t know who she is?

Mr. CRAFARD. I cannot recall her name, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. I wish you would give some thought to what her name is before you leave so perhaps we can----

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever have occasion to write her name down any place for Jack?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe her name was wrote down, I believe her name was wrote down in the notebook.

Mr. GRIFFIN. In the little notebook you were keeping for him?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; I am not sure.

Mr. HUBERT. All right. Now, what other friends did you note that Ruby had? You mentioned George Senator, and you have mentioned this girl who was in the striped dress in the Exhibits 5200-A, -B, -C, -D, and -E. Who else do you know?

Mr. CRAFARD. Ralph Paul.

Mr. HUBERT. I think you have told us something about him.

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Who else?

Mr. CRAFARD. There was a couple of the comedians from some of the other clubs that came up to the club quite often.

Mr. HUBERT. Who were they?

Mr. CRAFARD. I wouldn’t know their names.

Mr. HUBERT. Were there any others than those you have already mentioned?

Mr. CRAFARD. Not that I can name; no, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. How long were you at the club from the time you first went there until the time you left?

Mr. CRAFARD. Approximately 6 weeks to a month or 2 months.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever see any members of the Dallas police force there?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Tell us something about that.

Mr. CRAFARD. Well, the uniformed patrolman would come up every once in awhile in the evening and have coffee on the club.

Mr. HUBERT. When you say on the club, you mean without paying for it?

Mr. CRAFARD. That is right.

Mr. HUBERT. How do you know that?

Mr. CRAFARD. I on several occasions--I on several occasions served the coffee for them.

Mr. HUBERT. Normally you would collect for that?

Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. I mean normally you would collect from another patron.

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. But you didn’t collect from the police?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Why?

Mr. CRAFARD. Jack told me to go ahead and they could have coffee whenever they wanted.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, you did not ask any money for the coffee because you had been instructed not to by Jack?

Mr. CRAFARD. The girls had told me that they was allowed to do so.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember which girl?

Mr. CRAFARD. The waitresses.

Mr. HUBERT. The waitresses?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Jack never did mention the subject to you?

Mr. CRAFARD. The only thing he ever mentioned was that the policemen went off duty, would come in there when they were off duty, got their drinks at a cut price.

Mr. HUBERT. What was the cut price?

Mr. CRAFARD. The normal price was 60 cents, and they got them for 40 cents.

Mr. HUBERT. That you say is when they were off duty?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he give you any instructions as to what the price was to be when they came in on duty?

Mr. CRAFARD. There was no charge for the coffee, and none would drink anything other than coffee, to my knowledge, when they were on duty or maybe a Coke or--a glass of Coke or a glass of 7-Up.

Mr. HUBERT. How did they identify themselves when they were off duty so that they got the cut rate?

Mr. CRAFARD. Well, most of them when they come in there, when they come to the door they got in the door free so they showed a card at the door, their identification at the door. And then it usually would be at the bar, the girls knew most of them that did come in there when they were off duty. Evidently I took it that Jack had introduced them as officers, and we had occasion one night to serve one of the gentlemen, we was talking, and one of the girls when I took over the bar from Andy, he had to leave early, and he told me this gentleman was a police officer. He said he only charged him 40 cents. So I had occasion to talk with them.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you get to know any by sight?

Mr. CRAFARD. No; not that I could--just when he walked in the door and say he was a police officer.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you know any by name?

Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see any of those policemen at the Ruby trial?

Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t recall it, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How many different policemen would you say came in to Ruby’s place during the period you were there?

Mr. CRAFARD. When they were off duty, to my knowledge, there was only about 4 or 5 of them would come in there, off duty, and it was usually the same ones that were on duty that would come in to have coffee, patrolmen. The others were usually plainclothesmen, detectives.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know what bureau any of them were attached to?

Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know whether there were any of them attached to the juvenile bureau?

Mr. CRAFARD. No; not definitely.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You have some thought that they were?

Mr. CRAFARD. You mentioned the juvenile bureau, it seems to me there was something mentioned about one of them being from the juvenile bureau or something.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is this something you read in the paper, or something that was mentioned at the club.

Mr. CRAFARD. No, something that was mentioned at the club.

Mr. HUBERT. Did Ruby follow a pretty close routine of life insofar as his activities were concerned?

Mr. CRAFARD. For him, yes. His routine was for myself, or for any ordinary businessmen that I have known, any businessmen that I have known, would have been a real rough, hurry-scurry routine.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, let’s take it timewise. For instance, you say he usually called you in the morning. Was that pretty routine?

Mr. CRAFARD. No; that varied.

Mr. HUBERT. And I think you said that he came in usually sometime before noon.

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Was that pretty regular?

Mr. CRAFARD. Most of the time he would be in before noon, between 10:30 and 12 o’clock.

Mr. HUBERT. Then what would he do with the rest of the day?

Mr. CRAFARD. Well, he would be around the club for maybe anywhere from a half hour to 2 hours, then he would leave the club and I might not see him again until midnight.

Mr. HUBERT. And then he stayed until the club closed?

Air. Crafard. When he came back to the club after the club opened he generally stayed until the club closed. On three or four occasions he stayed until the club closed and then he went over to the Vegas Club.

Mr. HUBERT. Normally what would he do?

Mr. CRAFARD. He would go over to the Vegas Club and pick up the receipts for the day.

Mr. HUBERT. And then what?

Mr. CRAFARD. As far as I know, go home maybe stop for a bite to eat.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What would he do with the receipts?

Mr. CRAFARD. He would carry them home with him and the next day bring them back to the Carousel.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he have a safe?

Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir; he bought a safe while I was with him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When was that?

Mr. CRAFARD. It was about 2 weeks prior to the assassination of President Kennedy.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How did he happen to come to buy that safe?

Mr. CRAFARD. Well, he was always carrying quite a bit of cash and he was always worried about having somebody rob him or something, and I guess he wanted, he finally made up his mind to buy a safe and he went down to buy a safe.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you with him?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir; I was with him when he purchased the safe.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall where he went?

Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t recall the name of the company.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Whereabouts was it located?

Mr. CRAFARD. Let’s see, it was a block and a half right straight behind the Carousel Club, but I can’t recall the name of the street.

Mr. GRIFFIN. It would have been on Field?

Mr. CRAFARD. No, Commerce--Field is next to Commerce, I believe.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. CRAFARD. It was the next block back.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was it a----

Mr. CRAFARD. It was a furniture, office furniture supply house.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. Now, how big a safe was it that he bought?

Mr. CRAFARD. It was a wall safe, a floor safe.

Mr. GRIFFIN. About how high would you say that it stood off the floor?

Mr. CRAFARD. About 18 inches tall. The common type that is poured in the cement in the floor.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was this poured in the cement?

Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Could somebody, if somebody had broken into the building, could they have carried this safe away?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir. The safe was in his office and the office was always locked and I was there all the time.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But when you weren’t there, if somebody had gotten into the building, and had broken into the office, why they could have carried this out?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir; they could have carried this out.