Chapter D: C. Larrabee, (8)

Q. Did he tell you that he had all the men that they wanted?

A. The men I sent up to the depot reported that to me.

Q. Who reported that?

A. Officer William Johnson. Several of them, I think. Officer Crosby. The men came back and they said that they were not wanted. He kept three at the depot, M. A. Davis, Matthew Goddard, and Ernest Ehring.

Q. Where was the mayor during the night?

A. When I came back in the evening, about seven o'clock, I brought the men to supper, and after they had supper, I sent them out again, and I went to the office. I am not positive whether I saw the mayor there or not. I am not positive about that. The next time I saw him, was in the neighborhood of twelve o'clock, at the office.

Q. Thursday night?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Where did he remain during the balance of the night?

A. In the office. I stayed there also all night.

Q. Were you out during the night?

A. I went out and stayed until about ten o'clock, and then I came back.

Q. Did the mayor have any communication with the men out there during the night?

A. Not that I know of.

Q. Where was the chief of police during the night?

A. I cannot say that.

By Senator Yutzy:

Q. You say you sent the men back on Friday. Where did you instruct them to go--to the Union depot or to Twenty-eighth street?

A. To the Union depot. I directed them to ask if they were wanted, and they came back and said that they were told that they were not wanted; that they had all the men they wanted.

Q. Do you know where the mayor was on Friday?

A. I cannot answer that, because I was at Twenty-eighth street, almost all day on Friday. My instructions were to go there, and if I saw a disturbance, to telegraph immediately to the city to the office.

Q. You did not see him on the ground at any time?

A. No--not on Thursday nor on Friday.

By Senator Reyburn:

Q. While you were there, on Friday, did you see any effort made to take possession of the tracks?

A. No; no effort was made at all.

Q. You saw no disturbance at all on Friday?

A. No.

Q. Or Saturday?

A. No disturbance, until after the trouble about the firing.

Q. Was any effort made during Friday to run out trains?

A. Not while I was there--not on Friday.

Q. The crowd was there?

A. Quite a crowd was gathered there. They appeared to be going and coming all day.

By Mr. Lindsey:

Q. You saw no effort made on Friday. How long were you there on Friday?

A. I suppose I was there three quarters of the day--walking all along, and seeing what was going on.

Q. There might have been an effort made, and you not have seen it?

A. Yes, sir.

By Senator Reyburn:

Q. It appeared to be an orderly assemblage?

A. Yes, sir.

By Mr. Lindsey:

Q. What were they doing?

A. Standing together and chatting--talking.

Q. Standing there all day?

A. They appeared to be coming and going.

By Mr. Means:

Q. Did the subject of conversation appear to be the stopping of the trains?

A. I did not hear them.

By Mr. Lindsey:

Q. What were they there for?

A. For curiosity, I suppose.

Q. Where is this William Johnson that you spoke of?

A. He is on the police force now.

Q. What is Crosby's first name?

A. George.

* * * * *

Philip Demmel, _sworn with the uplifted hand_:

By Mr. Lindsey:

Q. Where do you reside?

A. No. 26 Twelfth street, in the south side.

Q. What was your business during last July?

A. I was chief of the police of Pittsburgh.

Q. State whether any knowledge was brought to you in regard to the disturbance at Twenty-eighth street, on the 19th of July, and if so, state what time it was.

A. I came to the office sometime after dinner, and went into the mayor's office, and I was told that some of the railroad employés had gone on a strike at about Twenty-eighth street, and that Mr. Watt had sent for some policemen, and that about ten or a dozen had been sent out in charge of Detective McGovern. A short time after a dispatch came in signed by Mr. Watt, asking for fifty more men. I went on the street myself then. Our police force, of course, was in bed. They did duty at night. I went on the street, and saw a few of those discharged men, and asked them to go. Some went and some did not. I did not hear anything more of it until evening, when I came in from supper. They reported then that one man had been arrested, and after that everything was quiet. The men got their suppers, and we sent them out again. There were only a few that would not go. In the morning they came back--those who were on duty all night--and some of them said that the railroad officers had got as many men as they thought sufficient, and that the military was called out. It was thought at the mayor's office then that the services of the police would not be needed any longer.

Q. That the services of the police would not be needed any longer, you say?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did the mayor say that?

A. I do not remember that the mayor said that, but----

Q. That was the decision you came to?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. After a consultation with the mayor, was it?

A. I cannot recollect any direct consultation with the mayor.

By Mr. Reyburn:

Q. Was he there?

A. Yes, sir; but I am satisfied that he was of the same opinion.

By Mr. Lindsey:

Q. Did Officer McGovern report to the mayor during the afternoon?

A. I believe he came in before the rest came for supper, and reported this disturbance--about a man being arrested for striking Mr. Watt, and he then reported all quiet after that.

Q: Did he report to you by telegraph?

A. No; yes--I believe they did telegraph this arrest first from the Twelfth ward station.

Q. You have arrangements at the station-house to receive reports from all parts of the city, have you not?

A. From eight different parts of the city--yes, sir.

Q. From that portion of the city?

A. Yes, sir; there is a station-house within two blocks of Twenty-eighth street.

Q. Did you receive any report from Officer McGovern during the afternoon?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. What was the nature of it?

A. That all was quiet--that this man had been arrested for striking Mr. Watt.

Q. Was there a dispatch sent you, or communicated to you from Mr. Watt during the afternoon, that he wanted fifty more men?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. What time was that?

A. I do not remember--perhaps an hour after the first squad of police went out.

Q. What did you do?

A. I stated that before. I went out on the street, and saw some of the discharged men.

Q. Did you raise the fifty men you wanted?

A. No, sir; I did not raise twenty men. I did not raise seven men, no more than that.

Q. Could you not have got fifty men at that time?

A. No.

Q. Did you make any call on the night force?

A. No.

Q. Did you make any call for police--any demand for a posse of police?

A. Of the regular force?

Q. Or any force?

A. I simply went on the street, and around Fifth avenue and Smithfield street, and asked these men if they would go.

Q. Did you have any conversation with the mayor?

A. I think the mayor handed me this dispatch.

Q. Did he make any call for a posse of police?

A. No; no more than telling me to do as I did--to see if I could get the men.

Q. Did he tell you how the men were to be paid?

A. I do not know. That was one objection with these men. They wanted to know about their pay, and whether it was going to be a regular thing. I could not satisfy them about that, and they did not care much about going.

Q. You just went around and hunted up the men that would go voluntarily of their own accord?

A. Yes; after getting this report from the Twelfth ward station-house. We thought that fifty men would hardly be necessary anyhow; but we could not have raised them if we had wanted them.

By Senator Yutzy:

Q. Could you not have got them if you had commanded them?

A. We could not command them any more than I could command you.

Q. Could not the mayor have commanded them?

A. He had no right to command them.

By Mr. Lindsey:

Q. He did not tell you to command any men to serve.

A. No.

By Mr. Dewees:

Q. What was the reason you could not get these men to go out?

A. Well, we had a reduction of our force a short time before, and some of these men thought that they were not treated right, and when I asked them to go out, they wanted to know if they would be placed on the force permanently. Of course I could not satisfy them, and they did not want to go.

By Mr. Means:

Q. At any time you were there, did the firemen call on you to assist them?

A. I saw the firemen only on Sunday, and it was understood then that the mob would not allow them to put water on the property.

Q. Did they ask the police officers to help them?

A. I do not know that they did. I was out there with the mayor, and we had too few men. The firemen would change their place time after time as the fire came down. A man came and said that they wanted to throw water on the fire, indicating a car burning, and the mayor said: "All right, we will protect you." We immediately formed the men to protect them, but afterwards they did not throw water on that fire at all.

By Mr. Lindsey:

Q. Where was the mayor during Thursday afternoon?

A. I saw him in the office, I think, once or twice.

Q. Where was he during Thursday night?

A. I think in the office.

Q. Did you receive any instructions from him during the night?

A. I went to him during Thursday night to place one of our lieutenants in charge over the force at Twenty-eighth street--Lieutenant Coates. It was his suggestion, I believe.

Q. At the mayor's suggestion?

A. Yes; or mine, and he agreed with it.

Q. What time was that?

A. About supper time.

Q. Where was he during the day Friday?

A. I remember seeing him in the office.

Q. Did you receive any instructions from him during the day in regard to this disturbance at Twenty-eighth street?

A. No; there was no disturbance there during that day. There was a crowd there, and the military were there.

Q. Where was the mayor during Friday night?

A. I cannot answer that.

Q. Where was he on Saturday?

A. On Saturday he was in the office. In and out as usual. At the time we got the report of the firing he was in the office, I know, because he sent for me and asked me to take a couple of men out Penn avenue, and close all the saloons in the vicinity of this disturbance.

Q. What time was that?

A. I think along about four o'clock.

Q. Four o'clock on Saturday he asked you to take two men out and close all the saloons in what district?

A. You mean what police district?

Q. Yes.

A. The third police district.

Q. Extending over how much space?

A. Over the city in the vicinity of Twenty-eighth street. We closed all the saloons there from Thirtieth to Twenty-fourth street. We then came in and sent another squad out to close the balance.

Q. How far?

A. Down to Eleventh street.

Q. Had you received any instructions from him during the day, (Saturday before this,) in regard to the disturbance out there?

A. No.

Q. The saloons had been open out there until three or four o'clock on Saturday?

A. Yes; they were open at the time we went there.

Q. What time did you arrive there?

A. I can't tell. It was immediately after hearing of the firing. We walked up Liberty street as fast as we could.

Q. You went with the two men, and saw that your orders were executed?

A. We went in and asked these men, and told them it was the request of the mayor to have them close their saloons.

Q. Did they comply?

A. Most generally.

Q. During the day, Sunday, did you receive any orders from the mayor?

A. No; except I was out with him at the scene of action in the afternoon. The mayor was out there before daylight, and I was out there myself. I came in about six or seven o'clock, and got my breakfast, and went out at ten o'clock, and then I found the mayor there.

Q. Did you receive any orders during Sunday night from the mayor?

A. Nothing, except about handling the police, in trying to prevent the mob getting into those stores.

Q. What did you do to prevent that?

A. They called some of the south side police over, and had them doing duty around in places where they anticipated there might be a break made, but there was considerable damage done before the police arrived.

Q. What damage was done before the police arrived?

A. A couple of stores were gutted, on Penn avenue and on Liberty street.

Q. What kind of stores?

A. The one on Penn avenue was a pawnbroker's and the one on Liberty street was a gun shop.

Q. Do you know who broke open the stores?

A. Since then I know of one party that was a leader in it. But I do not know the others.

Q. Were any policemen in the vicinity at the time?

A. No; at that time there were no police on duty. They didn't go on duty until eight o'clock.

Q. Were any policemen on duty throughout the city during the day, Friday?

A. No.

Q. During the day, Saturday, throughout the city, I mean?

A. No.

Q. They were not on duty until eight o'clock, Saturday night?

A. No.

Q. Then these stores were broken open before eight o'clock?

A. Yes; that is, the first two.

Q. When there were no policemen on duty?

A. Yes.

Q. When did the mayor put on any day force, or was there any day force on Sunday?

A. On Saturday night I put a notice, by the order of the mayor, into two of the Sunday papers, to have all those ex-policemen report at eleven o'clock on Sunday, but got very few reports.

Q. How many reports did you get?

A. I do not remember now--not probably over fifteen or twenty reported in time.

Q. Were they placed on duty during Sunday?

A. Yes.

Q. Were there any policemen on duty throughout the city on Sunday?

A. Yes.

Q. How many?

A. Well, the third district had some of the south side police on duty on Sunday night, in the vicinity of Twenty-eighth street, and the police there I brought in on Sunday morning, and got their breakfasts, and sent them out again. Some of them strayed off, of course.

Q. As chief of police, can you not give us the number of policemen on duty during Sunday, in the whole city?

A. I do not think there were more than eighty. That is, we got more men on as it grew later in the day.

Q. This notice you placed in the papers was merely a request for the discharged police force to report at eleven o'clock?

A. Yes; I had the orders, and I think the mayor had consulted with the committee of safety, or some one who assured him they would be responsible for the pay of the police, and would see that the police stayed on.

Q. What time did you get that notice into the papers?

A. It was given to the papers on Saturday night.

Q. Was it published in the evening editions?

A. It was published in the _Globe_ and _Leader_ of Sunday morning.

Q. By whom was the notice signed?

A. By myself.

Q. As chief of police?

A. Yes.

Q. You say you got very few reports?

A. Very few; that is, at eleven o'clock.

Q. During Sunday night how many police did you have on duty?

A. I had all the old force, and I expect, perhaps, about forty or fifty of the discharged men.

Q. That would make about one hundred and forty or one hundred and fifty men during Sunday night?

A. Yes.

Q. How many did you have on duty during the day--Monday?

A. Well, those policemen came reporting in one after another from Sunday until Tuesday, and they never went off duty at anytime from Sunday night, from the time they went on, until about Wednesday, I guess.

Q. Where did the mayor spend the day--Sunday?

A. Along Liberty street, part of the day.

By Senator Reyburn:

Q. About the scene of the riot?

A. Right there.

Q. What was he doing there?

A. All he could to prevent the depredations. He was with the police; but we could not do anything. He went to Union depot and made a speech to the mob; but that did not have any effect. They stoned him, and he had to get out.

By Mr. Lindsey:

Q. What time was that?

A. I do not have any distinct recollection of any time that day. It was, perhaps, half an hour previous to the burning of Union depot.

Q. Was he out there on Sunday when the fire was going on?

A. Yes.

Q. The fire commenced out beyond Twenty-eighth street and worked down this way?

A. Yes.

Q. How many men were engaged in burning cars, or in the actual destruction of property there, during Sunday?

A. That is a hard matter for me to say. The track in some places--I suppose there are three or four or five rows--and the freight cars were packed in alongside of one another, and on the top of those cars and in between them, there was a crowd of people all the time. Some of them may not have had a hand in doing any damage, but I think that most everybody that was on the track--of course there were some spectators that didn't have any hand in it--but the majority of the people there would break open a car or gut a car whenever they could. I could not say how many, but a great many, three hundred or four hundred anyhow.

Q. Were those men armed? Had they weapons?

A. I didn't see any weapons except a few revolvers.

Q. As chief of police, I ask you if you do not think you could have taken one hundred policemen, with their maces, or the weapons that they usually carry, and have thrown them across the track there, and driven back that crowd?

A. No.

Q. Why not?

A. Because the crowd was on all sides, and I would not know how to form the men to do that to have a solid line. The crowd was along the track and in between the cars as much as five hundred or six hundred yards at a time, and they would come rushing in and yelling every way, from below and above.

Q. I ask you if, in your judgment, you do not think that you could have taken one hundred policemen and stationed them across the track in front of Union depot, from the hill down to the block of buildings, and have driven back the crowd as they came up?

A. If I had had one hundred men there that might have been accomplished. I did try it with what men I had.

By Senator Reyburn:

Q. How many men did you have?

A. Not more than fifteen or sixteen together at one time. The policemen, of course, got around among the people, or the mob, and we could not find them.

Q. It was not possible to keep them together?

A. I could not keep them together. In order to get at the men, the policemen would have to divide, and it was such a big mob, we could not keep them together.

By Mr. Lindsey:

Q. Could you not have formed at some cross street, say Fifteenth or Sixteenth street, and then have resisted the crowd and kept them back?

A. On the street?

Q. Yes?

A. Well, the crowd on the street was not so unruly as those on the railroad.

Q. But Sixteenth street runs up to the railroad. Now, could you not have formed the men at Sixteenth street and thrown them across the railroad, with one wing running out towards the hill, and then have kept the crowd back?

A. No; because you could not have got the mob together at any one point--because the mob most all the time extended five hundred or six hundred yards.

Q. To what point did the mob extend, coming towards the city?

A. Nearly into Union depot.

Q. Then could you not have formed at Union depot and kept them back?

A. It would have taken a great many more men than that.

By Senator Reyburn:

Q. Was any effort made at all to get control of this crowd at any time during the disturbance?

A. Yes.

Q. With your fifteen or sixteen men, you mean?

A. Sometimes we had twenty--all the men we had, or that could be got together--perhaps, sometimes, twenty-five or thirty men. They would be getting in among the mob and trying to drive them back.

Q. Had the police authorities no organization or no arrangement to keep the crowd from coming, or did they allow people to come from all directions when they knew a disturbance of this kind was going on--did you have any organization at all?

A. Not a very good organization. The men went out there in the morning, and they had been up all night, and they were tired, and it would have been impossible to keep the crowd back. They flocked in from all parts of the city, and from the country for miles around.

By Mr. Englebert:

Q. In other words, you really had not any organization of the police force?

A. When I went up there, our men were scattered. I took them on the railroad several times, but was unable to do any good. I took them on the railroad in a body, but they could not be kept there any time without being separated.

By Senator Yutzy:

Q. Was any effort made to make any arrests, during this disturbance, of parties engaged in the riot?

A. On Sunday morning, we arrested about one hundred and thirty--that was the beginning of the fire--when they began to pillage the freight cars.

Q. Did you arrest any of the parties that were pillaging?

A. We arrested them coming away with goods.

Q. What did you do with them?

A. We brought them down in the morning, in the "black maria," to the Central station, but Deputy Mayor Butler, I believe, discharged most of them, and fined some of them.

By Mr. Lindsey:

Q. Do you know how many were fined?

A. I cannot tell. I did not stay to the hearing myself.

Q. What is Mr. Butler's first name?

A. Joseph.

By Senator Reyburn:

Q. Your people took these men up, going away with goods?

A. Yes. We put them in the Twelfth Ward station, and then put them in the "black maria," and brought them to the Central station, and heard them there. Mayor McCarthy was up all night, and he was tired, and he deputized Deputy Mayor Butler to hear them.

Q. And he discharged them?

A. Yes; he discharged a good many of them.

By Mr. Engelbert:

Q. Do you know whether those people were citizens of Pittsburgh, or people that had just run in?

A. Some were citizens of Pittsburgh and some were strangers.

By Mr. Means:

Q. Did the mayor or anybody else say to you, at any time, that it was necessary for the railroad officials to get out of town--that their lives were in jeopardy.

A. I never heard any such expression coming from the mayor.

Q. That it was necessary for the railroad officials to get out of town--that their lives were in jeopardy? Was that said to you by the mayor or by anybody else?

A. I am satisfied that I didn't hear any expression like that coming from the mayor, but I heard talk like that on the street.

Q. From whom?

A. Most any of the crowd that would be congregated together would be talking about this thing.

Q. Citizens of Pittsburgh?

A. Yes.

Q. Could you name any of them?

A. Not now. It was the general talk. General Pearson, I guess, was named in such talk more often than the railroad officers.

Q. But you heard that talk about the railroad officials?

A. Yes; that it would not be safe for them to show up.

By Mr. Engelbert:

Q. One question about this plundering and thieving: Were those parties discharged the same day that they were arrested--on Sunday?

A. The same day--Sunday.

Q. Then the arrests amounted virtually to nothing?

A. Yes; except in saving the property of the company, or whoever it belonged to.

By Senator Yutzy:

Q. Was the mayor present when you offered protection to the firemen, at the fire engine, when they proposed to throw water on those burning cars?

A. Yes; the mayor was present. One of the firemen asked him, if he would protect them, and he said yes, and the fireman said, that is what we want. Then they made the attachment, but did not throw any water afterward on the fire.

Q. Did they make any proposal to the mayor, to take an active part himself--to hold the nozzle?

A. No; I do not think they did.

By Senator Reyburn:

Q. Why did they not throw the water?

A. Because, I suppose, they were intimidated.

Q. But when you gave them the protection they asked, did they not make an effort to throw the water?

A. No.

Q. Did the mob make a rush?

A. No; no more than following the engine.

Q. What reason did they give for not throwing the water?

A. I do not know.

By Mr. Lindsey:

Q. Who had charge of the engine at that point?

A. I do not know; I do not know what engine it was.

By Mr. Engelbert:

Q. Did the firemen throw water on private property when it was burning?

A. All the time.

Q. But not on the railroad property?

A. No.

By Mr. Lindsey:

Q. Do you know who the man was who asked protection from the mayor?

A. I do not know.

Q. Did the mob interfere with private property at any time?

A. Not during that day. They did attempt to during that night and also during Sunday night.

Q. What attempts were made on Sunday night?

A. The American house, I think, or some place near it, was gutted, but by that time we had a pretty good force, and we went there and drove them away and arrested some of them.

Q. Who had command there?

A. Lieutenant Coates.

Q. He had no trouble in beating the crowd away?

A. He had some trouble, but he did it.

Q. How many men had he?

A. I went there afterwards, and we had, I suppose, some forty men there.

Q. After the railroad property was destroyed--by that time you had a pretty good police force?

A. Yes; the men were reporting during the day.

By Mr. Dewees:

Q. You stated you had sixteen policemen at Union depot?

A. I stated I had sixteen in line.

Q. Where were the balance of your police at that time?

A. They were scattered among the mob.

Q. The whole police of the city were there?

A. No, sir; all I could gather up at that time were there.

Q. Are you still the chief of police?

A. No, sir; there is another administration.

By Senator Yutzy:

Q. Have you a police commission or police committee, that have any special duty in taking charge of the police or in regulating the police?

A. No, sir; it is the mayor that has that power here.

Adjourned to meet at three o'clock, P.M.

AFTERNOON SESSION.

ORPHANS' COURT ROOM,
PITTSBURGH, _Monday, February 11, 1878_.

Pursuant to adjournment, the committee re-assembled at three o'clock, P.M., this day, and continued the taking of testimony.

The first witness examined was--

* * * * *

Henry Metzgar, _sworn with the uplifted hand_:

By Mr. Lindsey:

Q. Where do you reside?

A. In the Eighth ward, Pittsburgh.

Q. What official position did you hold in the city last July?

A. I was the mayor's clerk.

Q. What knowledge had you on Thursday of any disturbance among the railroad employés?

A. I think my first knowledge was on Wednesday, but to get at the data I would request to send for the information made against Thomas McCall.

[A paper exhibited to witness.]

Q. Is that a copy of the information?

A. Yes. On Thursday, the 19th, Mr. Watt came into the office, and asked for a number of policemen. As to the exact number I don't know, I didn't exactly hear the number, but I understood he wanted ten policemen to go out on the Pennsylvania railroad. The mayor went out with me to the chief of detectives, and they got a number of policemen, and arranged them up in line, and I think I asked Mr. Watt how many he wanted, and he said ten. One or more of them then stepped out of the ranks. Ten policemen went out, I believe, to the railroad. About twelve o'clock of that day we received a telegram, asking, I think, for fifty policemen additional.

Q. From whom?

A. To the best of my recollection the telegram was from Mr. Watt. I immediately went out and hunted some of the policemen who had been discharged--I hunted them up, and several of the officers went out and hunted them up. I notified a number myself to report at the office for duty at the Pennsylvania Railroad Company's depot. How many reported I don't know. It not being my special duty, I paid no attention to it. But I know a number of them reported. Where they went to I don't know personally. About four o'clock that evening, the mayor asked me if there was any news from the Twelfth ward. I told him I could telegraph to the Twelfth ward and see. We did so, and the report came from the station that all was quiet.

Q. The Twelfth ward takes in this district at Twenty-eighth street?

A. Yes; the mayor then left the office to go to Castle Shannon where his family is, as I believed, for the night. About that time--about five o'clock, Mr. Watt came in and asked for from fifty to a hundred additional policemen. I told him I didn't know where we could get them--that all we had for effective duty was ninety men, and, in the absence of the mayor, I couldn't take away the policemen from all portions of the city, for the purpose of protecting the property of the railroad company. Mr. Watt said to me, what will I do. I said, I don't know--the only thing--if you have a fear of any danger to your property--you had better call upon the sheriff, and the sheriff can call a _posse comitatus_ to protect the property if there is any danger. Mr. Watt said he would do so. That is the last I saw of him until some time after the riot. No--the next morning--the morning of the 20th--he came in, and made this information against Thomas McCall. The mayor, at the time, said to him, that our police force was very limited, and in making those arrests we would have to make quiet arrests. The warrants were placed in the hands of the officers, for the purpose of ascertaining where those parties lived, and to find out who they were, and all about them. For the most part, they were strangers, as far as we knew. Officer McGovern had the warrants. The next morning Mr. Houseman, of the firm of Hampton & Dalzell, came into the office, and asked me how many of the parties had been arrested. I told him I didn't know that any were arrested. That the mayor's instructions were to proceed quietly. He said, can you give me this information. I said, no, it is part of the record, and cannot go out of our hands. He then asked for the names of the parties against whom the information was brought, and he copied the names, and as he was going out he said, I am instructed by Mr. Hampton to tell you folks not to execute these warrants. I said, very well--this is a matter entirely in your own hands. I went out with him to the officer, and told the officer to produce his warrants. He produced them, and I told him, you are instructed by Mr. Hampton, through Mr. Houseman, not to execute them. He said, that was all right. That is all I know, unless some special question may arise.

Q. How many policemen had been discharged prior to Thursday?

A. One hundred and sixteen.

Q. How long had they been discharged before that?

A. They were discharged, I think, sometime about the latter part of June, or may be the 1st of July. I am not certain as to the date.

Q. Had you any knowledge of any anticipated outbreak or strike by the men before it was communicated to you by Mr. Watt?

A. Not the slightest. And at that time we had no idea there was going to be any such trouble at all, as we have had sometimes in this city.

Q. You were present when Mr. Watt asked the mayor to furnish him with the police?

A. I was in the office.

Q. You heard the mayor's reply?

A. He went out with Mr. Watt and instructed the chief of police to get the men.

Q. Did Mr. Watt have to promise to pay the men before the mayor gave that instruction?

A. I believe something was said about pay. These men, you see, were not on the pay-rolls of the city. The regular men were in bed or scattered all over the city. These men happened to be there that day, being paid off.

Q. Did the mayor require Mr. Watt to become responsible for their pay?

A. I believe something was said about the railroad company--that it would have to pay the men, as no provision was made by the city for their pay. I think very few of these men were on the regular force.

Q. Did the mayor make that a condition before he instructed you to send out for the men?

A. He never instructed me to send out for anybody.

Q. Who did he instruct?

A. Either the chief of detectives or the chief of police--I cannot remember which.

Q. Did he make any order at that time, calling out policemen?

A. Not as I know of.

Q. These men went out as volunteers?

A. Yes; in that sense. They were men who had been discharged. They went out under the control of Officer Charles McGovern.

Q. They volunteered to go?

A. We had no right to make a demand on them as a police force. They were not in the employ of the city.

Q. When the telegram came to you calling for fifty policemen, what effort did you make to get them?

A. We hunted them up as well as we could. A great many of these men wouldn't go because they were incensed at the city for discharging them, but a number of them did respond.

Q. You hunted up as many as you could get to go willingly?

A. Yes.

Q. How many?

A. About thirty-five. It not being my special business, I didn't pay much attention to it.

Q. Did you notify the mayor of that call for fifty additional police?

A. Yes; he sent us out, and says, go hunt them up.

Q. How many did you get?

A. I think about thirty-five. I never burdened my mind specially with that.

Q. Did you get another call from the railroad company?

A. I have no recollection of another call, except when Mr. Watt came and said he wanted from fifty to one hundred men additional.

Q. Did you communicate that to the mayor?

A. I did when he came into the city, at eight o'clock on that evening.

Q. What evening?

A. Thursday evening.

Q. What did the mayor say?

A. He said he didn't know where he could get the policemen. Our intention in calling the police was simply to protect property from getting stolen.

Q. Did he make a demand upon the citizens of the city to join the police force at any time?

A. We made a demand--certainly we did.

Q. When?

A. On Sunday night, for instance, when I made a call upon the citizens to volunteer to protect the water works of the city.

Q. Had you made any demand prior to that Sunday night?

A. I cannot say. I know of that for a fact.

By Senator Yutzy:

Q. What demand?

A. He said, how many people will volunteer to protect the water-works of the city, and I ask for volunteers. As I understood, they intended to burn them down. Out of some two hundred men, four responded, I think. He said he understood they were in danger.

By Mr. Lindsey:

Q. But he summoned no posse from the citizens of the city during the riots, did he?

A. I don't know that he did.

Q. How many of those discharged policemen were at the city hall on Thursday when those ten men went out?

A. I cannot say how many were there. They were in and out, being paid off. I cannot say how many. Quite a number of them, I know.

Q. How many could you have got to go out there at that time, do you think?

A. We got all we could.

Q. To go voluntarily?

A. Yes; I know, personally, I used every exertion I could, and I know Mr. Davis was out hunting up men.

Q. Were you out there during the riots at any time?

A. I was out on Friday.

Q. At what point?

A. At Twenty-eighth street.

Q. How large a crowd was there?

A. At the time I was there I suppose probably a thousand people were there.

Q. How many were engaged in the riotous proceedings?

A. None that I saw.

Q. What were they doing at that time?

A. They were assembled there listening to a speech made by Doctor Donnelly, counseling moderation, and advising those not connected with the railroad to go home and attend to their own business. Some other speeches were made by one or two more.

Q. What was the effect of the speech upon the crowd?

A. I don't know that it had any effect. It had no special effect particularly one way or another.

Q. Did they listen to it?

A. Yes.

Q. Did they make any response to it in any way?

A. Some response was made to Doctor Donnelly when he counseled those having no business there to go home. Some of them made some remarks from the outside of the crowd--that is enough now, you just stop there; and things of that kind.

Q. What time did the mayor return from Castle Shannon?

A. Shortly after eight o'clock. It may have been eight and a half o'clock.

Q. Where did he remain during the night?

A. In the office, I think.

Q. All night?

A. I can't say, for I didn't stay there.

Q. Where was the mayor Friday, during the day?

A. In and out the office all day, so far as I know. I know he was there.

Q. Was any effort made to increase the police force on Friday?

A. Not that I know of.

Q. Nor on Saturday?

A. No.

Q. When were the discharged men placed back on the police force?

A. They were not placed back on the police force until Monday. I think Monday a number of them reported for duty. A committee of councils, or councils held a session on Sunday morning; but there was so much confusion that nothing was done. The police force was not replaced until Monday or Tuesday; that is, the additional men.

By Mr. Means:

Q. Where is the mayor at the present time?

A. In Philadelphia, I believe. He has left a note that he would be home to-morrow.

Q. What was said about these men being paid?

A. There was some conversation about the railroad company--that it would have to pay these men, because the men were not on the pay-rolls of the city at the time.

Q. Did the mayor make that inquiry of Mr. Watt, as to who would pay?

A. I know there was some conversation on that subject.

Q. Did or did not the mayor say to you that it was necessary for the officers of the railroad to go out of town, that their lives were in jeopardy?

A. No.

Q. Did anybody else say so?

A. No.

Q. Did you ever hear it said?

A. No; only after the riots. I understood they left town for fear of that, and I was rather astonished to find that some of them had been out of town.

Q. Did anybody there state to you that General Pearson had better go out of town?

A. No.

Q. Did you know of his being out of town?

A. No.

Q. Did you know of any of those railroad officers being out of town?

A. No; only subsequently.

By Mr. Lindsey:

Q. Did any of the citizens call upon the mayor, requesting him to put on an additional force?

A. Well, I guess--I do not know that. They did not up to Saturday afternoon, until the time of this firing.

Q. Didn't they do it on Friday?

A. No.

Q. On Saturday?

A. Not that I know of.

Q. Did they offer to become responsible for the payment of the additional police?

A. When?

Q. Friday, Saturday, or Sunday?

A. I never heard of it at all. I never heard any such an offer made. The committee of public safety afterwards agreed to pay a certain number of men on the police force from that time until the end of the year.

Q. When did they make that proposition?

A. I think Monday, Tuesday, or Wednesday, but it was after all the trouble had occurred, so far as I know anything of it.

Q. You know nothing of any such offer having been made on Friday, Saturday, or Sunday?

A. No.

Q. Were you with the mayor during those days?

A. Off and on, Friday and Saturday. On Sunday I was at the central station until twelve o'clock, noon. We had about one hundred and twenty-five prisoners there Sunday morning, and it took all my attention until noon that day to get through with the business.

Q. What were they arrested for?

A. For carrying away property, and stuff, and various things, and disorderly conduct. One thing and another of that kind.

Q. For larceny and disorderly conduct?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Before whom were they taken?

A. Before Deputy Mayor Butler.

Q. What was done with those persons?

A. Some were fined, and some were held for court, and some were discharged. A great many were discharged, as one of the officers came down with the report that the jailor said that he could not hold them or keep them.

Q. What persons were they who were arrested?

A. I cannot say. Most of those names are fictitious.

Q. Did you get their residences?

A. No; the residences were not taken.

Q. How many did you hold for court?

A. That I cannot say.

Q. Did you keep a record of it?

A. Yes; there is a record of it.

Q. Have you the record now in your office?

A. I do not know whether it is there now. I passed the record out of my hands to the comptroller of the city.

Q. How many were fined?

A. Quite a number.

Q. Did they pay their fines?

A. Some of them did and some went to jail.

Q. How many went to jail?

A. That I cannot say.

Q. Can't you make an estimate?

A. I really could not, because you can imagine that morning I had not much stomach for anything to keep facts and figures. It is just a general idea. Everything was in such terrible confusion.

Q. How large were the fines?

A. From three to five dollars.

Q. You say you cannot tell who those men were, or where they resided?

A. No; they were people I never saw before.

Q. Those who were committed to jail. Did you ever ascertain afterward who they were and where they came from?

A. I did not.

Q. Did you ever make any effort?

A. I never did. The police made efforts afterwards to try to ascertain, I believe, who they were, but I do not know what they did, or whether they did anything or not.

Q. Can't you tell something about what class of people they were from their dress?

A. They all looked to be of the poorer class of people, but what they were or who they were I cannot say.

Q. Can't you tell whether they were tramps or railroad men or people of the poorer class?

A. Some were tramps--I know that. I have a recollection of that. I don't think there were any railroad men. There may have been a few, but a very few, though. They were generally of the poorer class of people, picking up plunder.

By Senator Reyburn:

Q. Were they Pittsburghers?

A. That I cannot say. I never saw them before, and have never seen them since.

By Mr. Means:

Q. When those policemen were sent out there, was there any arrangement made by Mr. Watt, or any other person, to keep the time of the men while in service?

A. I had nothing to do with that. That was a matter for the clerk of the chief of police to attend to. I know that Mr. Watt, or somebody, sent down a check to pay them.

Q. Have you any recollection of a party of eighty sent to the work-house?

A. I remember a party of forty-six sent there. They came here from Cumberland, and were arrested on the arrival of the train here.

Q. What train?

A. On the Connellsville railroad.

Q. Those were all sent up in a body?

A. Yes, sir.

By Mr. Larrabee:

Q. When was that?

A. On the 23d or 24th of July.

* * * * *

R. H. Fife, _sworn with the uplifted hand_:

By Mr. Lindsey:

Q. Were you sheriff of Allegheny county last July?

A. Yes.

Q. How long have you been sheriff?

A. Two years the first Monday of last January.

Q. State what knowledge you have of the disturbance of the peace that commenced on the 19th of July last?

A. On the 19th of July last I had been out of the city during a part of that day, and came home late in the evening. I went to my house, and remained there until sometime in the night. I had been sleeping, I think. About eleven o'clock, between that and twelve o'clock----

Q. Thursday night?

A. Yes. Mr. Scott--that is Mr. John Scott--Mr. Watt, and another gentleman--I do not recollect his name--came to the house. I came down and admitted them into the parlor. They told me of the trouble they had--that Mr. Watt had been assaulted, and that a large crowd was out there. They wished me to go out and see what I could do. I told them I would go, and I put my coat on, and called one of my deputies--Mr. Haymaker--and we started down to Union depot. There we met General Pearson, and he went with us out to one of the offices--I do not know just what office--and then General Pearson and Mr. Watt--I think Mr. Watt went along, or some other gentleman connected with the railroad--and I went up to Twenty-eighth street.

Q. What time did you arrive at Twenty-eighth street?

A. It was after the middle of the night--between twelve and one o'clock. There was a large crowd of rough people there. But probably I am a little ahead of my story when I speak of Twenty-eighth street. On my road up from the depot to Twenty-eighth street, the cars on the siding there, and on the tracks that were not filled with merchandise, appeared to be all filled with people. A number of them were in there sleeping, and others were in there carousing. All the cars appeared to be full. At Twenty-eighth street, I asked why that assemblage of people were there, and they said they were on a strike, and that they proposed to stop the freight trains from going out, and that they had stopped them. I told them they were acting contrary to the law, and that they must disperse. The reply was, "go to hell you gray-headed old son of a bitch," that and other pet names of similar character. I then repeated the order that they must disperse, and that if I had not the power to do it, that I would have to try to get power sufficient to do it. They then replied, that General Pearson and I both might go to hell, that they had the mayor and his force on their side, and that Mr. T. C. Jenkins had agreed to give them one thousand barrels of flour to stand out, and that Mr. Alexander King had agreed to give them a thousand dollars. I told them they did not know those gentlemen as well as I did, or they would not talk that way. They said they knew them, and that we had better take a walk. About this time there was a diversion in the crowd. A courier came with a piece of paper--I did not have it in my hand, I did not get to see it--but a large number of them ran across, and they read the communication aloud. It read something in this way: "Hold your position until to-morrow morning, and we will send five hundred coal miners to assist you." It purported to come from the Monongahela Valley. They then assembled back. I was up on a pile of lumber talking to them, and I commenced to talk again, but, after this, they were far more abusive than before. The language would not do to repeat. In a short time another courier came with another communication, representing to come from Wilkes-Barre, that parties there would be here to assist them as soon as they could.

By Senator Reyburn:

Q. Were these people you spoke of, railroad men?

A. Not many of them. A portion of them were, but not many. They were the bad elements of society from all parts of the city, and from some parts of the county, in connection with thieves and blackguards from other parts of the country. A great many strangers were there. I made that remark to one of the railroad officials, that the crowd was not composed entirely of our people, and he differed with me, and I gave this answer at the time--I said "These are not our people, for I claim to know as many men in Allegheny county as any other man in it, and they are strangers here that I never saw." Some females were there, or ladies, the worst I ever saw.

By Mr. Lindsey:

Q. You speak now of Thursday night?

A. Yes; my first introduction to the crowd. I remained some time, trying to get them to disperse. They did not offer me any violence, but refused to go, and said they would die there sooner than they would be driven off. One man there, who appeared to be a leader, had served two terms in the penitentiary. I knew him by sight. He appeared to be a leader. He was not a railroad man, and I do not think ever had been.

Q. What was his name?