Chapter D: C. Larrabee, (1)

A. F. ENGELBERT,
SAMU'L W. MEANS,
P. P. DEWEES,
_Committee of the House_.

Laid on the table.

PROCEEDINGS AND TESTIMONY.

SENATE COMMITTEE ROOM,
HARRISBURG, _February 4, 1878_.

The committee met and organized by the election of the following officers:

W. M. Lindsey, _Chairman_.
Samuel B. Collins, _Clerk and Stenographer_.
J. J. Cromer, _Sergeant-at-Arms_.
---- ----, _Messenger_.

Adjourned to meet in Pittsburgh, an the 6th instant.

ORPHANS' COURT ROOM,
PITTSBURGH, _Wednesday, February 6, 1878_.

The committee met at half past ten o'clock, A.M., this day, in the orphans' court room, city of Pittsburgh.

The roll of members being called, it was found that all the members were present.

The committee engaged in a consultation as to the mode of procedure in taking testimony--as to whether the sessions of the committee should be public, and as to whether counsel should be admitted to represent parties who might be summoned as witnesses.

G. H. Geyer, Esquire, counsel for the county commissioners, was invited before the committee for the purpose of ascertaining what the commissioners desired; also W. B. Rogers, Esquire, counsel for the city of Allegheny, was invited before the committee for the same purpose. The county commissioners in person also appeared before the committee.

The committee was waited upon by Mr. Johnson, a member of the chamber of commerce, who gave information that the chamber had appointed a committee, of which he had been elected chairman, for the purpose of giving aid in obtaining information relative to matters being investigated by the committee. On behalf of the chamber of commerce, he also tendered the use of their hall for the sittings of the committee.

Upon motion of Senator Reyburn, it was ordered that a session should be held this afternoon, from three to six o'clock.

Adjourned.

ORPHANS' COURT ROOM,
PITTSBURGH, _Wednesday, February 6, 1878_.

Pursuant to adjournment, the committee re-assembled at three o'clock, P.M., this day.

The debate was resumed, as to the mode of procedure in taking testimony.

Upon motion of Senator Reyburn, the chairman of the committee, Mr. Lindsey, was selected to conduct the examination of witnesses on behalf of the committee.

Adjourned.

ORPHANS' COURT ROOM,
PITTSBURGH, _February 7, 1878_.

Pursuant to adjournment, the committee met at ten o'clock, A.M., this day.

The committee proceeded to the examination of witnesses. The first witness called was:

John Scott, _sworn_:

By Mr. Lindsey:

Q. Where do you reside?

A. I am still a citizen of Pittsburgh, although I have been attending to my business for the last three months in Philadelphia.

Q. What is your official relation to the Pennsylvania Railroad Company?

A. At present I am the general solicitor of the company.

Q. What was it in July last?

A. I was then what was called the general counsel of the Pennsylvania Railroad Company, resident at Pittsburgh.

Q. Can you tell the committee whether, prior to July last, there were any differences existing between the Pennsylvania Railroad Company and its employés?

A. On that subject I have no personal knowledge. Any differences, if they did exist, between the employés and the company were known to the operating officers of the company, over whom I have no control. I only know it as a matter of public history, as other persons.

Q. Were you present at the disturbances of the peace within the city of Pittsburgh in July last?

A. I was during a portion of those disturbances, but not during all of them. If it is desired that I should give you a connected statement of what I did see, I would begin with where my personal knowledge of the transactions commenced.

Q. That is what the committee desire?

A. On the morning of Thursday--that week in which the disturbances occurred--I cannot recollect the date--on that morning there was no appearance of disturbance. I state this from the fact that Mr. Pitcairn, the superintendent of the western division, and I live within a very short distance of each other. We take trains at the same station, and when I went there that morning I found him there with his family, preparing to go, for a visit of some length, to Long Branch. The strike which had occurred on the Baltimore and Ohio Railroad was the subject of conversation between us during the few moments that we were together there, and I know, at that moment, he had not the most remote apprehension of any disturbance. I came into town on the train, and knew nothing of any disturbance until about noon, when I heard of the assault having been made upon Mr. Watt. I did not see it, or I would narrate it.

Q. Who was Mr. Watt?

A. He was the chief clerk, or assistant to Mr. Pitcairn. About nine o'clock that evening I received a dispatch, stating that Messrs. Hampton and Dalzell, the local solicitors, who took charge of the local business, were absent from the city, and requesting me to come to the outer depot. I did so. I got off at the Twenty-eighth street station. There was quite a large crowd of people at that station. Just when I got off, an engine was coming up from the direction of the Union depot. I do not know from whence it had started. Immediately, there was a cry that it must be stopped, and there was a rush of a large number of that crowd towards the engine. It did stop, and a loud halloo went up from that crowd.

Q. Who composed that crowd, so far as you observed?

A. That I cannot tell. My point was to reach the outer depot, and I spent no more time there than was necessary. At the outer depot I found that Mr. Pitcairn had not yet reached the city, although he had been telegraphed for. I found Mr. Watt there, his assistant, and learned from him the extent to which the disturbance had gone. That he can give you personally. Finding from that statement that a call had been made upon the mayor for assistance to regain the property of the company, and that it had been ineffectual, I went up to my office for the purpose of looking at the act of Assembly passed in 1877, and also the law providing for calling out the military by the Governor. I spent some time in doing that, leaving word for Mr. Watt to come to my office, so we might call upon the sheriff for the purpose of dispersing the mob, and regaining possession of the company's property. He came up in a short time, and we rode to the sheriff's residence, and woke him up out of bed.

Q. Where is his residence?

A. In Washington street, between Wylie and Fifth avenue.

Q. What time was that?

A. That was, probably, between ten--no I am not certain about the hour--about ten or eleven o'clock. I stated to the sheriff that the property of the company was in the possession of a large number of the employés and of citizens--the information was that--I had no personal knowledge of it--Mr. Watt was with me--and that an effort had been made, through the mayor, to regain possession, which had not succeeded, and that we called upon him, as officers of the company, to ask him to go to the outer depot and exert his power, as sheriff of the county, to disperse the crowd assembled there, and to restore possession to the company of its property. I said I came as counsel of the Pennsylvania Railroad Company, and, that as it would probably be one of the most delicate exercises of power he could be called upon to make, I insisted he should send for his own counsel to accompany him, as if he found his power insufficient to disperse the mob, and to restore to the company possession of its property, we would ask him further to advise the Governor, so he might exercise his power, if he found it necessary. The sheriff replied that Mr. Carnahan was his counsel, and that he resided at East Liberty, and that he could not get him in time to go to the depot. He went for a deputy, who lived across the street--Mr. Haymaker, I think--and we all drove to the outer depot, on the way finding Mr. Pitcairn, who had arrived in a train from the East. When we reached the outer depot, General Pearson was there. He had been apprized by the Adjutant General. The sheriff was again informed of the desire of the company to obtain possession of its property, and have the crowd dispersed.

Q. Can you give the date of this?

A. I have said this was on the Thursday preceding the actual burning and destruction. As a matter of memory, my recollection is that it was the 19th, although I am cautious about dates, as I have not a good recollection about dates. The sheriff then went out with General Pearson to Twenty-eighth street. I did not go with him. He came back after the lapse of probably three quarters of an hour, reporting that he found himself unable to disperse the mob, and that he could get no force to enable him to disperse it. I then said to the sheriff that it was a question for him to determine whether he had exhausted his power for the protection of the company's property. He said he had exhausted it, and that he had made up his mind to ask the Governor to call out the troops to disperse the mob. At his request, I wrote a dispatch to the Governor, and submitted it to him, General Pearson, being present as I understood, acting as his counsel at the time. Some requests had come to send a dispatch to the Lieutenant Governor. I was satisfied that it was not such an occasion as authorized the Lieutenant Governor to act; but public information in the newspapers being that the Governor was absent from the Commonwealth, I suggested to the sheriff, as a matter of prudence, that a dispatch should be sent to the executive office, at Harrisburg, addressed to the Governor; that a copy of it should be sent to the Secretary of State, who was then in Beaver, we understood, with information that it had been sent to executive office; that another copy should be sent to the Adjutant General, who was understood to be in Philadelphia, and that the Lieutenant Governor should be informed of the fact that such a dispatch had been sent to the Governor, that he might have that information, and, if he had the authority to act, might exercise it.

Q. Who signed that dispatch?

A. The sheriff.

Q. At what time?

A. That was in the neighborhood of twelve o'clock that night. I am giving my judgment about those hours. Those dispatches signed by the sheriff were sent. There was a great deal of telegraphing that evening there, between myself and the officials of the railroad company, Mr. Pitcairn and others, the details of which I cannot now recollect. In the course of several hours after that dispatches were received from Mr. Quay and the Adjutant General by the Sheriff, informing him that the Governor had ordered out the troops. Dispatches were also received there by General Pearson, from the Adjutant General, giving him the same information. I cannot give the hour of those dispatches; but I know before we left the office, probably about five o'clock in the morning--four or five o'clock, perhaps--the sheriff and General Pearson had both received dispatches to the effect that the Governor had ordered out the military to the assistance of the sheriff, and that General Pearson had drawn an order, in pursuance of those dispatches, for one of his own regiments of this city to turn out. Probably about five or six o'clock that morning several of us left the office and went to bed at the Union depot. That was Friday morning. Now as to the actual progress of the strike. What occurred at the outer depot during Friday, I believe, I have no personal knowledge, and I do not know that I had any intercourse with any of the officials of the Pennsylvania Railroad Company, and not, probably, with the military officers, until about four or five o'clock that evening. There was delay in the military responding to the general's orders. Some information reached our office, where I was engaged in other business in the office of the Penn company, that General Pearson was about to open the tracks with the military, and was starting for that purpose from Union depot. Mr. Thaw and I went up there together. When we arrived, there was a company ready to go to Twenty-eighth street. Mr. Cassatt was there, one of the vice-presidents of the Pennsylvania Railroad Company. I do not know what was said when I got there; but in some way my opinion was asked as to the propriety of the movement. Somebody asked me, I do not know who. There were a great many people around the dispatcher's office, where General Pearson was. I was asked the question. I said in reply, that as an officer of the Pennsylvania Railroad Company I had no opinion at all to give, that the civil power of the country having been called upon, and the sheriff having been called upon, and the military being there with General Pearson in command of them, I certainly would not give any instructions that would interfere with the discretion either of the sheriff or of General Pearson. I might reply, as a citizen of Pittsburgh, that there was no need of repeating the old maximum, which had got very trite, that there was no use in firing blank shot at a mob; but that when they were ready to strike, they should do it effectually, and disperse the mob. The General stated to me there the force he had, some sixty men in that company and a battery called Breck's Battery, the remainder of his force was at Torrens station. He also stated he had a number of men then at Twenty-eighth street.

Q. What is the distance of Torrens station from Twenty-eight street?

A. Out to East Liberty is four miles, and Torrens station is probably a quarter of a mile beyond that. From the length of time that had elapsed, and a number of the men not having responded, I felt satisfied it would be prudent to have more troops before striking, and I so telegraphed to Philadelphia. General Pearson, at that point, said: I believe I could take this battery up there and open the track at that point, but it would be with very great sacrifice of life.

Q. To whom did you telegraph to Philadelphia?

A. To the president of the road--Colonel Scott. I said in that dispatch, from the dilatory way in which the troops were coming, I thought that the troops ought to come from some other quarter than from Pittsburgh. General Pearson was evidently reluctant to sacrifice life, even if he could open the road by doing so, and wished Mr. Thaw and myself, as officers of the Pennsylvania Railroad Company, to sign a request asking him to delay his movement. I refused to do so, saying that I would not control his discretion as a military man--that what should be done, at that time, should be left to him to decide. I left then and went out home that evening, and staid at home Friday night and saw nothing more of the riot than a passenger would see in passing out through the large crowd assembled at and about Twenty-eight street. I cannot estimate the number there, but the road was blocked and the hill was largely covered, when we went out on Friday evening. I returned to the city on Saturday morning, but did not see what transpired along the Pennsylvania railroad during that morning, as I was busy in my own office at Tenth and Penn streets. There was a great deal of communicating back and forth between the officials of the road, between Philadelphia and here, and west of this point, in reference to the strike. I was not present when the troops arrived from Philadelphia. I was pursuing my business in my department that evening until I went over to go out to my home, at Shady Side. The train I took was delayed, the firing having already commenced at Twenty-eight street. Word had come by telegraph, before that train started, that the firing had occurred. I went out in that train, through a dense crowd, both of civil and military men, at Twenty-eight street; and I was at my home during that night. The firing began that night, probably about eight or nine o'clock. I came into the city the next morning, and went to the Union Depot Hotel with some ladies who had been left on the train that could not get in the night before. It is not necessary for me to say what occurred. I found a place of safety for them. I found that the Union Depot Hotel was not a safe place at that time. I saw at that time the fire progressing up, but I was not any nearer to the scene of the riot at that time than the Union Depot Hotel. Secretary Quay and Adjutant General Latta were in the Union Depot Hotel making preparations to leave it.

Q. State the distance of your residence from the Union depot.

A. The station where I get off is a fraction over three miles from the Union Depot Hotel, and my residence is probably four or five hundred yards from the station.

Q. State whether at this time there was any rioting nearer to the Union depot than Twenty-eighth street, at the time you speak about when General Latta and Secretary Quay were in the Union Depot Hotel.

A. The fire had progressed, and was then progressing on this side of Twenty-eighth street up toward the Union Depot Hotel. I cannot say where the fire first originated, but looking up Liberty street from the Union Depot Hotel, when I was there, I should say the fire was then some six or seven blocks from the Union Depot Hotel. I could see it distinctly spreading across the street. I was not at the scene of the riot during Sunday; I was with the officers of the railroad company in Allegheny City, in conference as to the best mode of preventing further trouble, destruction, and rioting over portions of the road west of Pittsburgh. I do not know that I can give any further information in giving my personal knowledge of what I saw of the actual disturbances.

Q. Have you any knowledge as to what was done by the railroad company after that time?

A. In the way of suppressing the riot?

Q. Yes.

A. I might state upon that subject, that upon Saturday afternoon, while the officers of the western lines were in Allegheny City, a committee of citizens--at least a committee appointed at a citizens' meeting--a representative of Bishop Twigg--one of his clergymen, whose name I do not recollect--and Reverend Mr. Scoville, of the Presbyterian Church, and James I. Bennett, came to see what we could do in the way of suppressing the riot, and asking that some concession should be made to the men on the road. We replied to them substantially, that so far as the railroad company was concerned, we thought the mob had done about its worst. This was when the Union depot was burning--at least Mr. Thaw and I were on the hill a short time before, and saw the fire so near that we supposed it was then burning. We said it had now ceased to be a question between the railroad company and the employés, and was one between the public authorities and the mob, between government and anarchy, and that so far as we had anything to do with the question, we were now in an utterly defenseless position, and we thought, being in that position, if we were to make the concessions which had been demanded in the beginning, we would be breaking down the only barrier between anarchy and their property, and that now the question for the citizens to determine was whether they would make any effort to stop that lawlessness which would next reach them after it had spent its fury on the railroad company. So far as the efforts to stop the rioting by negotiations or compromising with the men were concerned, I had no direct connection with them. That occurred between others--friends of the road, the general management, and the representatives of the men--and I knew of them only in a general way, from hearing what was said by the officers, which was substantially, that while the men were in the position of law breakers, and holding control of the company's property, we could not yield to the demands extorted by that kind of violence; but that, if things were restored to their normal condition, the company was perfectly willing to meet the men, and negotiate with them in regard to this matter just as in regard to any other difference.

By Senator Reyburn:

Q. Upon this Thursday you speak of, you say you found, at a certain stage, that the road was in possession of the mob--substantially a mob--that then you went to the sheriff, and then, with him, to the depot, and found General Pearson there. Now, can you state to us who called for, or who sent for the militia--who called upon the State Government?

A. I have already stated that the call for the militia was made by Sheriff Fife, after he had gone out with General Pearson, and endeavored to disperse the mob at Twenty-eighth street. He then came back and reported his inability to do so, and that he had no further power at his command, and announced his decision that he would call upon the Governor, and, at his request, I wrote a dispatch to the Governor, announcing his conclusion, and asking for the Governor's aid.

Q. At the request of the sheriff?

A. Yes; he signed that dispatch sent to the Governor.

By Senator Yutzy:

Q. Did you call upon the mayor for assistance before you called upon the sheriff?

A. I did not personally. Mr. Watt informed me he did. He can give you that.

Q. Was General Pearson connected with the sheriff's office at that time as a deputy?

A. I don't know.

Q. You stated he was counsel for the sheriff?

A. Oh, no. I stated to the sheriff that I was calling upon him as counsel for the railroad company, and I insisted that he ought to have his own counsel to guide him in determining his duty in this emergency; but, saying that Mr. Carnahan was his regular counsel, and that he could not send for him, he went to the depot without him, with a deputy named Haymaker. When we reached the depot General Pearson was there, saying he had been requested by the Adjutant General to be there. When Sheriff Fife saw him there, he turned to me and said: "Mr. Scott, I know him, and for this occasion I will be governed by his counsel." General Pearson was not there as a deputy or a clerk, but in obedience to the dispatch of the Adjutant General, and the sheriff, finding him there, was governed by his counsel at that time.

By Senator Reyburn:

Q. Have you any knowledge as to who sent for the troops at Philadelphia, who ordered them here?

A. I have no other knowledge of it than that which came in the dispatches that night, which was that the Adjutant General had ordered them. A dispatch came from Mr. Quay saying that the Governor had ordered out the militia.

Q. The Philadelphia troops of the First division?

A. I have no actual knowledge as to who ordered them out, except in a general way; the Adjutant General was here afterwards, and when those troops came it was my understanding, derived from my intercourse with General Latta and all the others, that the military had been ordered out by the Adjutant General, he being the military officer of the State under the Governor. In speaking of all this, I am giving what occurred by the dispatches in the outer depot while I was there.

By Mr. Lindsey:

Q. Can you give the extent of the destruction of the railroad property by the fire?

A. I cannot, with any accuracy.

By Senator Yutzy:

Q. Approximately?

A. I have been informed that the officers of the road are yet engaged in making up a full statement of the losses of the company, and any estimate I might make would be so entirely unreliable that, if it is important to the committee, I prefer sending for those who have that subject in charge.

Q. Can you give the extent of the burning, the destruction of property in general?

A. My statement would be simply from observation--that the burning of property commenced at or very near the station of Lawrenceville.

Q. How far from the Union depot?

A. I would suppose a mile and a quarter or a mile and a half. That is an estimate. I do not know, I may be wrong about that. It is the second stopping place out from the Union depot. The destruction on the track, of cars that were there, and buildings extending from Lawrenceville all along past the Union depot and embracing property of the Pittsburgh, Cincinnati and St. Louis Railroad Company, on Seventh street, in this city, the number of cars burnt, the number of locomotives destroyed or disabled, the value of the goods in those cars, and the value of the buildings that were destroyed, and the injury done on the road are all matters of computation upon which my estimate would not be worth anything. It will have to be obtained from actual examination of those who inspected them.

By Mr. Means:

Q. Was the first burning of cars or of buildings?

A. I cannot say, except as a matter of public information. I was not present. I have already stated I was at Shady Side on Saturday evening, when the fire commenced.

Q. Have you any knowledge about what time that fire commenced?

A. I saw the light in the evening about nine or ten o'clock, and sent my son in to ascertain the state of things.

Q. Of your own knowledge you do not know whether it was a car that was first burned or a building?

A. Of my own knowledge I cannot say at what point the fire began, or by whom it was kindled.

By Mr. Lindsey:

Q. Can you state of your own knowledge what classes of men composed the rioters during the burning. Whether the mob was composed of railroad employés or of others than those, and if of others, of what class?

A. That would be in part my personal knowledge, but I could not give an answer to that without confounding together my personal knowledge and matters of information. I will give the result, if you wish it.

Q. State it?

A. The first difficulties, which were brought on by the employés of the company taking possession of the engines and trains, were, so far as I could judge, or saw, exclusively by those who had been railroad employés up to that point. The action which Mr. Pitcairn took with reference to that when they took that possession I cannot state. Things went on, with a great crowd accumulating from that Thursday morning, and while I say, as a lawyer, that there was a riot and mob there from Thursday morning down until the firing began, with a crowd constantly accumulating, as it would on account of any disturbance that had occurred, yet there seemed to be a feeling that it was not that kind of a riot or mob that called for the interposition of a very vigorous public sentiment to put it down; but, when the military were brought for the purpose of regaining possession of the property, and the collision was actually brought on, I can say that the mob was made up of a great many other people than railroad employés. I did not see them, nor was actually among them so I could identify any of the railroad employés, or any persons outside, but from my knowledge of the immense crowd which was assembled at Twenty-eight street as I went in and out, there were undoubtedly a great many other than railroad employés about the scene of violence, and I have no doubt participating in it.

By Mr. Larrabee:

Q. You say that while the employés were in possession of the cars of the company, there seemed to be no such riot as required the intervention of public sentiment to put it down?

A. I did not intend to say that, but that while it was confined to railroad employés public sentiment did not seem to manifest itself as requiring any decided interposition to put that down. In other words, I am bound in candor to say, when asked for it, that public sentiment here very clearly distinguished between the act of breaking the law on the part of the employés in taking possession of the railroad property, and stopping commerce at this point, and the act of rioting and incendiarism which followed in consequence of that initial breaking of the law.

Q. That is, that public sentiment did not assert itself vigorously against the employés taking possession of the cars and engines prior to the actual outbreak and destruction of property?

A. That is what I mean.

Q. In other words, public sentiment sympathized with the rioters?

A. I am a citizen of Pittsburgh, and here along with the rest of them, am bound to say that the newspapers pretty fairly reflected the public sentiment in what they said. If you wish to see what it was, instead of asking my opinion, owing to my relation with the railroad company, if you will take the editorials of the various morning and evening newspapers from the 19th of July, from the day on which this thing occurred, down until some days after the actual firing occurred, I think you will find that the editors evidently tried to reflect the public sentiment, and I think they succeeded pretty well in doing it. If you wish to get that you had better ask the sheriff what responses the people made to him when he asked them to become part of his _posse_. I did not hear what was said, but the sheriff knows.

By Mr. Lindsey:

Q. Did the sheriff succeed in raising a _posse comitatus?_

A. He said to us in the Union depot he could not, and reported to me the next morning that he could not do it.

By Mr. Engelbert:

Q. Have you any knowledge whether the mayor tried to subdue the riot or assist the sheriff in trying to subdue the riot?

A. I have not any personal knowledge of the mayor's action.

Q. Was he in the city during the time, or not?

A. Not to my personal knowledge, again. I did make one effort to have accomplished what I thought would have conduced somewhat to the public peace that afternoon, Saturday afternoon. That is the only fact within my own knowledge. About one o'clock, Saturday, seeing a large number of people attracted to the depot, and knowing that a large number of operatives were free from work that afternoon, I thought it a measure of precaution for the mayor to close the drinking saloons in the city. I drew up a paper, stating this fact, as politely as I could, and that paper was signed by Mr. Thaw and Mr. McCullough, officers of the company, and I took it over and had Secretary Quay and Adjutant General Latta sign it also, and then sent it up to the mayor, and the messenger reported to me that he had left it at the mayor's office in the hands of his chief clerk, I think he said; I never heard any more of it.

By Mr. Lindsey:

Q. Who was that messenger?

A. His name I cannot give you, but I placed it in the hands of D. H. Rudy; he can give you the name of the messenger who sent it up. That is the answer that I got, that he left it in the mayor's office. What was done with it I do not know.

By Mr. Engelbert:

Q. Do you know whether he complied with it or not?

A. I can only say that the drinking saloons were not closed, and I did not see any proclamation closing them.

Q. So if you were not a citizen of Pittsburgh, do you suppose you would think that the mayor had done his duty, as an officer ought to, at that particular time?

A. Being a citizen of Pittsburgh, I cannot put myself in the position of not being one. I will have to leave you to judge.

By Mr. Lindsey:

Q. At the time you first spoke of meeting the crowd of employés, and their taking possession of the engines on Thursday--the first outbreak you spoke of what was done on the part of the railroad company to ascertain the cause of that commotion?

A. I did not understand that there was any secret about the causes of it all. I am giving now the public understanding. My understanding was simply this: That an order had been made--Mr. Pitcairn can tell you more fully about that--an order requiring the running of, what are called double header trains--two engines to one train, and some of the employés alleged that that imposed on them additional work without additional pay. I believe that is the short of it, and rather than comply with it, they struck. I understood that was made the cause of beginning the disturbances here.

Q. Did you or any one, on behalf of the railroad company, communicate with those men?

A. I did not. I understood the operating officers did, but I cannot tell what occurred between them.

* * * * *

Robert Pitcairn, _sworn with uplifted hand_:

By Mr. Lindsey:

Q. What is your residence?

A. Shady Side.

Q. What is your official connection with the Pennsylvania Railroad Company?

A. General agent or superintendent of the Pittsburgh division.

Q. How long have you held that position?

A. I came here the last time in the spring of 1865. I have been here three times. Since that spring I have been superintendent of the division.

Q. Now give us your statement about the riots. Tell us whether there were any differences of opinion or disagreements between the Pennsylvania Railroad Company and the employés prior to the 20th of July last.

A. There were no more differences than there have been since the road has been opened. There have always been differences.

Q. Was there any difference existing at that time?

A. No more than heretofore. The company reduced the wages of all officers and employés ten per cent. in June.

Q. Of 1877?

A. Yes. There was a good deal of friction and complaint. Committees called upon me, and committees from the different divisions of the road visited Mr. Scott, the president, and had conferences with him on the subject. They complained because of the reduction. He explained that the cause of it was the condition of the country, and that as soon as business would become brighter, that then the company would entertain their petitions and would act fairly with them, when the committee, as they informed me, as Colonel Scott and others informed me, professed their satisfaction, and said there would be no trouble, but that they would work harmoniously.

Q. That was on what date?

A. I cannot remember the date; it was after the ten per cent. reduction.

Q. What was the date of that?

A. I think it was in June--May or June.

Q. Was there any further reduction after that time, and prior to the riot?

A. There was no reduction in wages.

Q. Was there an increase of duty or work placed upon the employés?

A. That is a question of opinion altogether. The company for many years back--the officers have been trying all in their power to economically manage the road, loading the engines to their full capacity and making them up differently. There is hardly a year passes, but that some of the officers finds some way of more economically running the road. There was an order given to make up what we call double-headers between Pittsburgh and Derry. Since the road has been opened we have always run double-headed, and sometimes three engines ahead and one behind, between Altoona and Conemaugh. The object in running the double-headers to Derry was for the purpose of making the trains go through to Philadelphia without being divided; that is, it takes two engines to haul a train from Pittsburgh to Derry, whether two engines ahead or behind, or two separate trains; and to avoid the delay of running two separate trains to Derry, one ahead waiting for the other, we put two engines in front of the trains, when one engine cuts the train going to Conemaugh, and the one put behind goes down to Altoona, and goes through from there.

Q. What was the date of that order?

A. The order of running double-headers on all through trains was the morning of Thursday, but we had always run double-headers between Pittsburgh and Derry, perhaps from one half to two thirds. The order was to take effect on that Thursday, and was to make them all double-headers.

Q. Did the men make any complaint about that order?

A. They made no complaint.

Q. To you or to any other officer of the road?

A. Not that I am aware of. Up to that time we always considered the double-headers a question of economy.

Q. Did that order require the discharge of any number of men, or did it not?

A. It did.

Q. By that order you could run your trains with a less number of men?

A. We could run them with a less number of conductors and brakemen, but not of engineers and firemen. As many double-headers as we had would take off one single crew of conductors and brakemen each.

Q. You heard no complaint about that order?

A. Not that I am aware of; but the men were always complaining about something.

Q. That was on Thursday. What was the first riotous occurrence showing that the men were dissatisfied after the issuing of that order?

A. I had leave of absence on Thursday morning to go to Philadelphia. For a few days previous I had asked the men--asked the subordinate officers--as I always do when I see them, if there is any trouble. I was assured then that our men were more satisfied and loyal than they had been, and I was perfectly free in my mind in going away on Thursday morning. I left in the day express on the Thursday morning when the trouble began.

Q. How far did you go before receiving intelligence of the trouble?

A. When I reached Altoona I got a telegram from Mr. Watt, who represented me here, saying that a few of the men, after the train I was on had left, had refused to go out on the double-headers, and that they were trying to create a disturbance, and saying what action he had taken, and that his idea was that it would be all right, and for me not to stop off but to go on, that the matter would be all right.

Q. What hour did you receive that?

A. About twelve twenty, when I reached Altoona. I had no train to return on and I thought I would go on the day express and think over the subject, and when I reached Lewistown I made up my mind that I would return. So I arranged for my family, who were accompanying me, to go on, and I returned on the fast line from Lewistown, reaching here at eleven thirty.

Q. In the evening?

A. Yes; eleven twenty-five. On my way west I telegraphed to my subordinate officers to meet me in Pittsburgh. I intended to get off at the outer depot, Twenty-eighth street, but there was a large crowd there, and I came to Union depot, and walked up to where my office then was, at Twenty-sixth street, and on my way I met a carriage with the Honorable John Scott and Mr. Watt and the sheriff. I got in the carriage and went to my office, at Twenty-sixth street, and there found my subordinate officers, and General Pearson was there.

Q. Who were your subordinate officers?

A. Joseph Fox, road foreman; John Major, road foreman; David Garrett, assistant trainmaster; Edward Pitcairn, trainmaster; Joseph McCabe, general dispatcher. Mr. Scott, the sheriff, and all the parties there were consulting and talking together, when the sheriff made up his mind to go up to Twenty-eighth street, where the crowd was interfering and preventing trains from running. I wanted to go up and talk to the men, when my subordinates prevented me, and said there was no use of my going up, because none of our men were there. Few, if any, of our own men were there. It was a crowd. They persuaded me to remain, while the sheriff and General Pearson went up to Twenty-eighth street. They came back and reported the result of their attempt to disperse the crowd, when the communications, as stated by Mr. Scott----

Q. What did the sheriff and General Pearson report to you?

A. They said they went up and went to the crowd and called to the crowd to disperse and go to their homes, and they made no impression, and received nothing but vulgar abuse.

Q. Did they go alone?

A. Unless one or two of my men went with them. One or two went with them.

Q. At what hour was that?

A. About twelve o'clock, Thursday night.

Q. What then occurred?

A. Then came the communications to the different parties. The Governor, and Mr. Quay, and Lieutenant Governor Latta, and Adjutant General Latta, and then came the replies, and the message to General Pearson to order out one of the regiments, I think, which he did.

By Senator Yutzy:

Q. From whom did this order come?

A. Adjutant General Latta.

By Mr. Lindsey:

Q. What time did he receive that dispatch from General Latta?

A. Between twelve and half past four in the morning. I think the order calling out the troops came after the Governor's message. All left the office about half past four. General Pearson, who had written his orders about the regiment before, and I parted at the Union depot. General Pearson went down town, and Mr. Scott, Mr. Watt, and myself went to the Union depot hotel for the purpose of retiring.

Q. When you came in from Altoona did you notice the disturbance at Twenty-eighth street?

A. Yes.

Q. To what extent?

A. It was dark, and I could not see any of the crowd. I do not know how many were there.

Q. What was the crowd doing then?

A. Yelling--talking loud.

Q. Were they stopping trains?

A. I do not know; they did not stop our train. I went to bed; but it was not five minutes until I received another telegram, and another, pertaining to the business of the road. So I got up. There were a number of messages from President Scott and the general superintendent. They had an idea we could move the trains in the morning, and were giving different orders about stock and different things.

Q. Did you make any effort to move a train on Friday morning?

A. We were continually making efforts; we never ceased.

Q. What effort did you make to move the trains on Friday morning?

A. The efforts to move the trains on Friday morning were, securing the crews and firing up the engines, and having everything ready to move when we could get through the crowd.

Q. Did you succeed in securing the crews?

A. Yes.

Q. Were they new men, or old employés?

A. Old employés. I want you to bear in mind, that in starting the trains, the crews were always there, professing their readiness to go out, and at no time had we not sufficient crews to take the whole number of cars out.

By Senator Reyburn:

Q. Who stopped you from running the trains?

A. The crowd.

By Mr. Larrabee:

Q. What was the crowd?

A. I did not know them.

By Senator Reyburn:

Q. Any of your own men?

A. I was about continually, and I do not think I ever saw over three or four of my own men in any crowd, if you leave out the sub-officers.

By Mr. Lindsey:

Q. On Friday morning you had crews enough to start all the trains; did you give orders to start?

A. To be ready to start.

Q. But you did not give any order to start?

A. No.

Q. For what reasons?

A. To get assistance to keep the crowd off our property.

Q. Did you think at that time that the crowd was so large that the trains could not run through it?

A. Not without killing them. They had charge of the switches there.

By Senator Yutzy:

Q. The crowd had?

A. Yes.

By Mr. Lindsey:

Q. Do you think if a train had started you could have run it through the crowd, and gone on--in your opinion?

A. If the crowd had not turned the switches. The switchmen were there, but under the management of the crowd.

Q. Did you go up there where that crowd was Friday morning, to see, of your own knowledge, whether the trains could run through or not?

A. On Friday morning we had a crowd at two points, Twenty-eighth street and at Torrens station. To both places I went.

Q. How large a crowd was at Twenty-eighth street that morning--Friday morning?

A. On Friday morning, to connect my story, I went up with General Pearson at Twenty-eighth street, and he talked to the crowd. I think the sheriff was along.

Q. How large a crowd did you find there?

A. I never was at Twenty-eighth street that evening.

Q. On Friday morning?

A. I have very little idea about the numbers of a crowd--it was a very large crowd.

By Senator Reyburn:

Q. Was your road-way blocked up?

A. Yes.

By Mr. Lindsey:

Q. Were any of your men among that crowd--your employés?

A. As I said before, I never recognized, I would be safe in saying half a dozen of our men that I knew.

Q. From Twenty-eighth street did you go out to Torrens?

A. Yes.

Q. How large a crowd was there?

A. I would say six hundred or a thousand. There was a crowd. I have no idea what number a crowd is.

Q. Did you find any of the railroad employés among that crowd?

A. I found one man that I knew as an employé, but I cannot name him. He talked to me, that is the reason I remember him.

Q. Were any of the switches turned, at that time, at Torrens?

A. None, to my knowledge.

Q. The track was clear at that time, so that the trains could have run through if they had allowed it?

A. Not to my personal knowledge.

By Senator Reyburn:

Q. Who seemed to be directing the crowd. That is, the mob?

A. There seemed to be an understanding, from the remarks made by the crowd, that they had sufficient force to prevent the trains going out. As for example: At Torrens a party told me it was bread or blood, and they could get any number of men to come up and prevent the running through of any train until the matter was arranged with them.

Q. Was that man an employé of the road?

A. He was, but I do not remember his name.

Q. What position did he hold on the road?

A. A train man. He may have been a flag man. I thought I knew his name, and came down to see a party arrested, but it was not the man. I have not seen him since.

By Senator Yutzy:

Q. Were those threats made by the crowd or by this one man?

A. By a single man.

Q. Were the threats made about preventing the running of the trains by employés or others?

A. By outsiders. They could not get enough employés to stop the trains.

By Mr. Dewees:

Q. When you doubled up the trains, how many men did you relieve. That is, on the morning of the Thursday that this outbreak occurred?

A. If there were ten single trains and I doubled up, I saved five conductors and five flagmen and ten brakemen.

Q. What became of those men?

A. They were suspended.

Q. Was anything said to them, that they were suspended for a certain time, or were they just dropped?

A. Those crews were not suspended, but that many men, and a great many more, because the business had gone down, were suspended, and we were choosing the married men and the old men. The old men and the married men were chosen, in preference to the single men.

By Mr. Larrabee:

Q. But by suspension do you mean discharge, or do you mean suspension temporarily?

A. They were given to understand that there was no more work.

By Mr. Dewees:

Q. This was one of the causes, this doubling up, as I understood you to say, that created the dissatisfaction here at this point?

A. That is what they say.

By Senator Yutzy:

Q. Did you not only reduce your crews, so far as the conductors and brakemen and flagmen were concerned, one half of a train, if it was sent out as a double-header?

A. One half of the trains we were running single between Pittsburgh and Derry.

By Mr. Lindsey:

Q. Were any of the discharged men among the crowd at Twenty-eighth street or at Torren's station that morning?

A. Yes; I saw quite a number of men who had been discharged for cause as well as suspended on account of the reduction.

Q. You deemed it unsafe from that time on to start your trains, from the time you visited Twenty-eighth street and Torren's station that morning?

A. The sheriff and General Pearson--the sheriff ordered the crowd to disperse and General Pearson, in fact, made a calm and warning speech, and told them what his orders were, that the military had been ordered out and what the consequences would be, and coaxed and pleaded with them to disperse before the military came up that had been ordered out.

Q. What time did the military come up?

A. In regard to the time of any of those occurrences, from Thursday until it was all over I was not in bed, and it is kind of cloudy in my mind as to the different hours; but as to the hour, I should say that this was about twelve or one o'clock, Friday.

By Senator Yutzy:

Q. When the military came at the crowd?

A. Yes.

By Mr. Lindsey:

Q. How many companies came on the ground at that time?

A. First one company--they were very straggling.

Q. Who commanded the first company that came?

A. I do not know.

Q. It was under the general direction of General Pearson?

A. Yes.

Q. At what point were they stationed?

A. That I cannot tell. On Friday--I cannot tell. I do not remember if there were any soldiers at Twenty-eighth street. I cannot tell. Friday night the Pittsburgh troops were brought out.

Q. What time did the first burning or destruction of property by fire commence?

A. Friday night the troops were stationed at Torrens.

Q. What time did the first burning commence?

A. I do not know that--I cannot say.

Q. Do you know where it commenced?

A. Only from hearsay. A great deal occurred between Friday night and Saturday night.

By Mr. Engelbert:

Q. When the sheriff and General Pearson went to the mob, was the mayor of the city, at that time, acting in conjunction with them?

A. I never saw the mayor.

Q. You do not know whether he issued a proclamation or assisted in any way whatever?

A. No.

Q. You do not know whether he took an active part in the matter of suppressing the riot?

A. No.

Q. Was he called on?

A. Only Mr. Watt informed me on Thursday morning, and then the sheriff was called Thursday evening.

By Senator Yutzy:

Q. Who was called first?

A. The mayor, according to my information.

By Mr. Engelbert:

Q. He did not respond?

A. Mr. Watt will tell you that.

Q. You have no personal knowledge about that?

A. No; it was before I arrived on Thursday night.

By Mr. Lindsey:

Q. Do you know when the first call was made on the sheriff, of your own knowledge?

A. Thursday night.

By Senator Yutzy:

Q. Did he respond?

A. Yes--in my office.

Q. With a force?

A. He had one man.

By Mr. Lindsey:

Q. Who was the man with him?

A. I did not know him.