Chapter C: A. Fife, sworn with uplifted hand (8)

Q. Mr. Cassatt is connected with what road?

A. Connected with the Pennsylvania Central.

Q. And Mr. Thaw with the Pennsylvania?

A. Mr. Thaw with the Pennsylvania. Mr. Cassatt was at the Monongahela house, and these gentlemen had connection with the two roads running together. He said he would like to go over. I said I would take him over, and took him in my open buggy, which he did not appear to relish very well just at that moment, but really there was no danger. I went down and crossed the lower bridge, and over into the street where Mr. Layng is living. I do not think we saw fifty people. The people had gone up to the fire. Allegheny City was at that time as quiet as it is on any Sabbath day, outside of the immediate neighborhood of the depot. I met no person on Sunday who was not just as anxious as they could be to do anything and everything they could to put down the rebellion, as I called it, for as I have said, I never could recognize it as a riot or anything else than an uprising of the people. On our own side of the river it was comparative quietness, but these men were settled on having their own way. If they had not commenced it before, it was not likely that they could organize as quickly and as thoroughly as they had done.

By Mr. Lindsey:

Q. What was the result of the interview with Cassatt and McCullough and Thaw?

A. I think Bishop Tuigg asked them to make some concessions to those parties, which they declined to make. I think the bishop's idea was to have some little concession made, and the difficulty might be adjusted as between the men and them. That was declined on their part.

By Senator Yutzy:

Q. What reason did they give?

A. The reason, so far as I understood it at the time it was given, was this: That they would not make any arrangement with men that were in open rebellion against law, and everything of that kind--could not recognize anything of that kind.

Q. What did your committee do then?

A. We came back to the city again, and there was a meeting in the afternoon, and I was at the mayor's office again in the afternoon. The mayor appeared to be entirely powerless. He had no police to do anything with, that amounted to anything. After that we then went to work and organized a citizens' meeting, which was perfected on the next Monday morning, and everything was done by those men that could be done. I do not think I ever saw men work more earnestly in trying to protect the city, and railroad, and everything else.

By Mr. Lindsey:

Q. At whose instance was the citizens' meeting organized--who were the movers in it?

A. The first I recollect of it was the bulletin boards that were put out on Sunday--that was as soon as the citizens could be got together.

Q. What bulletin boards?

A. The bulletin boards of the _Post_, and, I think, the _Dispatch_, the _Commercial_ and _Gazette_, and I think the _Chronicle_ and _Leader_. They are nearly all in that neighborhood. I think Mr. Barr was at the organization of the meeting. He was at the meeting they had on Sunday and Monday morning. The citizens were called together again and adjourned until Monday morning. There were a good many of our leading manufacturers that were out of the city, their families were out in the country, and they had gone out on Saturday.

Q. How long did that crowd you speak of in Allegheny City, that you ran into on Saturday nights--how long had that crowd remained in force there?

A. They were there I think nearly all that night. They were away the next morning. When I came up the next morning they were not there, that is, there was no crowd in comparison to what had been there--perhaps not more than usual there.

Q. There were some there?

A. There were some few that were there. They had possession then of the trains.

By Senator Yutzy:

Q. The strikers had?

A. The strikers had possession of the trains on Sunday morning. They were in possession there at that time.

By Mr. Lindsey:

Q. How many were engaged in actual riot and arson out at Twenty-eighth street, when you were there with the bishop?

A. I do not think it was so far as Twenty-eighth street--it was within a few squares of the depot. It would be impossible for any one to say how many were actually engaged in it, but the whole railway connection, so far as you could see, was filled with people on both sides of it--the street on both sides of the railway track. The number that was engaged in it appeared to be but few compared with the great crowd that was there--very few.

Q. What class was the crowd that was there composed of?

A. The citizens you speak of along the street?

Q. Yes?

A. There appeared to be a general outpouring from the entire city--every person. They were attracted there from every place.

Q. By curiosity?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. They were lookers-on?

A. They were lookers-on.

Q. Was there a crowd of sympathizers around, immediately around these parties that were engaged in actual riot and arson?

A. There were some that were sympathizers, but so far as my own knowledge went, men of any standing expressed no sympathy with them. A great many of the workingmen felt that the railroad was oppressing these men, and they were in sympathy with them--that is not taking any part in it. There were a great many of our laboring men that were there in their Sunday clothes that were taking no part, but walking around, and a great many of them absolutely appeared to me to be alarmed and frightened. That paralyzed them--not doing anything. I begged of the men, for their own sakes, to try and stop that, and they felt as though their lives were at stake in doing it. They were afraid to say a word; did not know who was their friend or enemy. The men appeared to be going on in a quiet way without saying much to anybody, except this crowd that was before us--we were right in the immediate neighborhood of the burning--as rough a looking set of characters as I ever saw. I have no desire to get amongst such a crowd again very soon.

Q. Were these men laborers or men that you had ever seen in and about Pittsburgh?

A. I could not say that any I saw in the burning were men I ever saw before--could not say that they were men I ever saw before.

Q. Could you tell from their dress what class of people they were?

A. It would be very hard to tell that. I saw a great many of our own men walking around looking on that were employed with us at our mills.

By Senator Yutzy:

Q. Have you an extensive acquaintance with the laboring men?

A. I know a great many of them by sight, and where they work. At the two mills were employed six or seven hundred men, one way or another; and back and forwards I have become quite familiar with them, without knowing their names. Indeed, all the laboring men about the mills, as a general rule they know me by sight, and I know a great many that have worked with us, that are not working with us now, among the better class of mill men and laboring men about the mills. I do not think they were engaged. We have some men engaged with us that are very bad men.

Q. What was it that alarmed you on Saturday and made you apprehensive of the future on Saturday afternoon?

A. What alarmed me first was this, when I began to make an inquiry--that our mills all stopped on Saturday from eleven to twelve o'clock, and the men about the mills had from one to two o'clock. They usually dressed, and generally we see them about in the city, and they are free from any employment. You can imagine the number of laboring men there are about the city; and that, as a rule, would apply to nearly all branches of manufacture.

Q. From your knowledge of the city and manufacturing establishments, give us an estimate of the number of laborers that would be out of employment and at leisure on Saturday afternoon.

A. I could not give you an estimate. I should say you could count it at thousands, though--thousands of men that would be unemployed at that time.

Q. Have you any idea of the number of thousands of laborers employed in and about Pittsburgh?

A. I could not give any correct estimate of that.

Q. Have you had experience before with strikers? Has there been strikes?

A. I have had a great deal to do with them at one time and another in our own business--men that we had employed ourselves.

Q. Is it a thing of very frequent occurrence--strikes among laboring men?

A. It is a common thing, but not so very frequent, these large strikes--what we would call large strikes, where the mill hands in all the mills strike. We frequently have difficulties of that kind in our own mill when it does not occur in any others--upon a particular branch of the business; something of that kind. We have had a number of very large strikes here in the city where all the rolling mills were stopped at one time.

Q. And it was your experience with the strikes, and knowing the number of men that would be idle Saturday afternoon, that made you apprehensive of the result?

A. That made me apprehensive; because these men were idle. They were all idle, and a great many of them are men. For instance, to explain more fully to you: A man comes along and he wants labor. We have our labor bosses. We do not inquire into his character, or anything else. If we need a man badly we put him in. He may be one of the worst men possible, and we may have quite a number of these men about our mills without knowing it. Tramps may come into our town, and if it is a time that labor is a little scarce, we might have fifty of them about us without knowing it--if they behave themselves just whilst they are employed. Bad men may come in and settle down upon us in that way.

Q. Had you been up at the scene of the riot before Sunday?

A. No, sir; I had not been there before that.

Q. Did you at any time during the riot have any talk with the rioters themselves, or the railroad employés, to ascertain their grievances, or the causes of the strike?

A. Not on the Pennsylvania railroad; but I did on the other side of the river, with them over there.

Q. Go on and give us the facts.

A. I had on the Fort Wayne and Chicago. I was among these men at the shops. I went over there one night or two in the shops with those men, talking to them, and they claimed that the railroad company had ground them down; that their wages were such that they could not live. That was their real grievance, and they wanted their wages restored. And they complained of a large portion of the men unnecessarily being thrown out of employment by doubling up the trains. That was the complaint. They had their unions--there are unions existing among the laboring men in our mills. Puddlers have their unions, and we have what is called "The Amalgamated Iron Works Union," which embraces nearly all. The railroad employés had their unions. These unions are all in sympathy with each other, and as a rule, will aid each other. There would be a sympathy existing among these men of all classes, for they felt that they were oppressed by the railroad company; and, as I say, they had the sympathy of the other workingmen of nearly every class--there can be no question of that.

By Senator Yutzy:

Q. Are these unions secret organizations?

A. Yes, sir; I think they are all secret organizations. I have never known any that were not secret organizations. I was there with them, and after some time Mr. McCullough--I don't recollect what day it was--I was with Mr. McCullough, at his office, to get information. Telegraphs were coming there, and I went there to get the news--to see what was going on along the road. Mr. McCullough had not seen any of the men of his own road. I got a gentleman to go and see them and tell them that I thought there should be an interview between them and Mr. McCullough, and I arranged that interview. I think there was one engineer, a fireman, a brakeman, and a conductor--there were four, and they agreed to meet Mr. McCullough, and I went with them and made the arrangement to meet at B. F. Jones' house in Allegheny City. Mr. McCullough came there and met them, and Mr. Layng also. They had a conversation there.

Q. Give us the summary of that conversation?

A. They stated to Mr. McCullough what the grievances were with regard to what the hands wanted. A portion of them denied that they had anything to do with the strike.

Q. That was after the Sunday?

A. This was after the Sunday of the burning. Mr. McCullough talked with them, and the interview was a very pleasant one. Mr. McCullough said he would do all that he could to have everything made right and satisfactory to them whenever the property was once placed in their hands, but whilst they stood out and kept them from their property he could not do anything at all. I told these men--I said to them afterwards that Mr. McCullough was right in his position; that they were in violation of law, and they claimed they were there, and they were not interfering with anybody nor anything, nor had they purposed to interfere with anybody. I told them that their simple presence was enough to show that they were in sympathy with these people. They might almost as well be guilty as to be doing what they were doing. I went down and talked to a number of the engineers with regard to the matter. As a rule, they were vary reticent and very careful about giving any expression at all.

Q. Did they claim a right to stop trains--interfere with trains?

A. Of course, they didn't to me. They were men of too good sense. They denied having anything to do with it. It was always somebody else. As I said, they were there giving countenance.

Q. How did these people define a strike?

A. They said this was not a strike of the engineers. This was a strike of the firemen--the firemen and brakemen, I believe. They threw it on them. I thought things were settled, and they were going to work. I came up and said, "Boys, how is it, I thought you were going to work" They said they were going to have a meeting, and asked me to go with them. I said I would go. They said they were going to have it then. I went down to the meeting in the Odd Fellows' Hall, and went in with them, and was there, and they denied that it was them solely. They said the engineers had as much to do with it as they had--just the same--and that they were encouraging them. I stated to them, then, that I would do all I could to have their pay made right, but there was only one way to do it, that I could see, and that was to report themselves ready for work, and take their positions, and after the road was once running, and in order, then the citizens would see to it that their case was properly represented, and that they would be more likely to get their rights in that way than in any other.

By Senator Yutzy:

Q. At this time they had possession of the railroad property?

A. They disclaimed having possession of the property. They would not admit that fact. They appeared to understand that that was in violation of the law.

Q. Was that the fact?

A. This was the fact--there was no doubt of that. You could not get any of them to admit it, though.

Q. Did they understand that they had no right to interfere with the running of trains, or with any other employé who desired to work?

A. They denied interfering with any employé. There never was a man yet that said he interfered with any one--never got an admission of that kind from any one. They said if a man wanted to go to work, there was his engine. At the same time, Mr. Layng, superintendent of the road, whilst he was but a few squares from the depot, I think he didn't care about going over to the railroad at that time, I met them the same day, and they went and reported themselves to the officers at the outer depot, and went to work.

Q. From the interviews that you had with the railroad employés, what did you gather as being the cause--the real cause of the strike?

A. From all I could gather from the employés in one way or another, my impression is that it was an organization. That perhaps the strike was a little sooner than was intended. It was a regular organization, intending to make a general strike throughout the whole country at the same time, and it was not the intention to be commenced at Pittsburgh. I think it was all over our country. We might call it an insurrection of these people to take possession and enforce their demands on the people. They then knew that the other labor organizations were in sympathy with them.

Q. What led you to that conclusion?

A. From the fact that these uprisings at Fort Wayne and Chicago and St. Louis, and on the line of the Baltimore and Ohio and Altoona and Harrisburg and Philadelphia. If it had been of an ordinary character, it would have had no influence, except where it originated.

Q. Did you ascertain from the men that there was any communication between the rioters here and the rioters at the other places you have mentioned?

A. I think one told me that they were in possession of the telegraph lines, and knew all that was going on, and one stated to me at one time something like this: He says, "We knew what was going on, because one of the men with us is an operator, who stood outside of the window, and he could hear the instrument and could tell us what was going over the line." I think they had possession of the telegraph line, and a good many were operators.

Q. He told you they knew what was going on--that was between the authorities, &c., in reference to the matter; but did he say that they had any communication through the rioters themselves by telegraph?

A. No; I do not know that any one admitted anything of the kind. They were very careful in making any admissions. These men you will find, so far as the law was concerned, they really understood that as well as any other class of men, where they are liable and where they are not.

Q. The strikes at Fort Wayne and Chicago and Altoona and Philadelphia that you have mentioned, were not until after the strike here--were they?

A. I think it was almost simultaneous--it was very nearly the same time--on the Sunday following right along--immediately on the heels of it, and I should think it was all during two or three days.

Q. Do you know what days the strike was at its height in Chicago?

A. No.

Q. Nor Fort Wayne?

A. I have no recollection now of just when this was, for I took no note of that.

Q. Nor in Philadelphia?

A. Nor in Philadelphia. I think it was unfortunate that they attempted to start these trains out--these double-headers here on Saturday.

By Mr. Yutzy:

Q. Why?

A. Because there were so many men loose--the laboring men of our town--you may say that certainly four fifths of the laboring men were unemployed after twelve or one o'clock, and that is the best reason I could give you for it. If I was going to do anything to a crowd, I should have postponed it until these men were at work. I think it was unfortunate, because, as I stated before, we all knew of the existence of these organizations, and we knew that these men that were in these organizations were all in sympathy, the one with the other.

By Mr. Lindsey:

Q. Was the fact that there would be so large a number of unemployed men on Saturday afternoon, known to the railroad officers?

A. I do not know that of my own knowledge. Mr. James Park, I think, told me that he had remonstrated with some of the railroad officials--I think he had spoken to Mr. Cassatt on the subject.

Q. Did you have any conversation?

A. I had no conversation on the subject, because I was engaged and busy on Saturday, and was not alarmed in regard to this. Mr. Park's manufacturing establishment was in the immediate vicinity of the trouble, and you might say he was in it. He was located right in it, and he was there, and I think what I say in regard to that, will be the testimony of every manufacturer in the city. I believe if the thing had been left until Monday or Tuesday, that the probabilities are that men would be generally about their employment at one thing or another, that there might have been no burning here at all. We might have had trouble and loss of life, and things of that kind. Why I say I think there was an organization, when I went home on Saturday night, coming up after dark, they were expecting this train in. These men certainly knew that train was coming with soldiers, and they were prepared to meet them. They were orderly--a quarter of a mile below, at the bridge--there appeared to be entirely too much order for a riot. When there is a riot, they generally do things up very quickly, without regard to who is in the way. These men were orderly and systematic.

By Senator Yutzy:

Q. This train you speak of--was that train from Erie?

A. I think that was the Erie train. Mr. McCullough told me he expected that train in. I was informed that they had no ammunition or anything of that kind.

Q. These men you conversed with gave as a reason for their strike that the wages were so low they could not live?

A. That was the general complaint.

Q. Do you know what they were actually getting?

A. I did know, and I had it from the railroad officials--I had it from them, but I have forgotten what it was.

Q. Were any of them getting less than a dollar a day--trainmen?

A. I think they were paid by the trip, but I do not recollect that any of them were getting less than that. I would not speak positively in regard to that. It may be possible. I have a memorandum of that in my pocket-book. I never expected to be called before a committee, or I would have saved some of these things that I had. It may be I have something here that will enable me to answer that question.

Q. If you find it hereafter you can send it to us, and we can attach it to your testimony.

A. It was a copy of a telegraph--you asked me a question; it would have answered it. It was a copy of a telegraph I had sent to Mr. McCullough on the subject, and his reply to it, but I think that, supposing that the thing was ended, my impression is that I have destroyed it.

Q. Have you anything else to communicate, Mr. Bennett?

A. Nothing; but I would bear testimony to the fact that the citizens of Pittsburgh appeared to be anxious to do everything they could to put down this riot, and there was no sympathy with the rioters--none whatever.

Q. You had a good deal to do in raising the force of citizens to put down the riot?

A. I had, perhaps. The first move, I told you, was on Sunday. A good many of my most intimate acquaintances were among the rolling mills, and quite a large number of them were out of the city. I sent for Mr. Park.

Q. Did you meet with any opposition in your efforts to raise the men?

A. Not a single instance. Upon the contrary, every man I saw was anxious to do anything, and were willing and did go up there at the risk of their lives, to do everything they could do, and no man I met anywhere at all, among my own acquaintances, but what were ready to do anything they would deem in reason, to try to stop it; and I think it was stopped by the citizens at last. I was not present, but from what I heard afterwards, the citizens prevented the burning of the Fort Wayne depot.

Q. Was there any move by the citizens prior to Sunday morning?

A. Not that I know of. I have no knowledge of any--no recollection of any now. It was early Sunday morning that they set fire to things in the first place, and the citizens appeared to be completely paralyzed. I saw men coming along, carrying provisions, bacon, hams, and articles that they had taken from the cars they had broken open--carrying them away back two or three miles into the country, and I saw them walking along the streets, and it appeared to me that people were afraid to say a word to them. They were alarmed--they did not know what to make of it. It appeared to come upon them like a clap of thunder--they were unprepared for it in any way. I never saw men labor more earnestly, and labor harder to try to do their whole duty than that citizens' committee did. It was through their individual efforts that there was an additional police, and it was by private subscription to pay these men, that they were put upon the force. Our city was in a helpless condition, and these bad men, of which we have a large number around the city--they knew exactly what the police force was, better than we did.

Q. Did you know the police force had been reduced in the city, and, if so, when were you informed of that fact?

A. I had no knowledge that our city was in so helpless a condition. I was amazed when I heard it.

Q. Was it known to the business men--I mean generally--that your city was in such a condition, in regard to the police force?

A. I do not think they generally understood the matter. They might have been under the impression that there was a reduction of police, but so few----

Q. Was it the subject of conversation when it became known?

A. Of course it was, and the very moment it was discovered, they sought to apply the remedy by making contributions of money themselves, to have the force put on, and agreeing to pay for it.

Q. Did you have any talk with the mayor yourself in relation to that subject?

A. 1 did, at his office. He told me then that he had no power to do anything, but expressed a willingness and a desire to do anything he could, and I do not think that any suggestion I made to him, he ever refused to do anything it was in his power to do.

Q. What day was that?

A. I had a conversation with him on Sunday, and again on Monday, and as I met him at different times, I would have a talk with the mayor.

Q. Was it known to you that the mayor had full authority and control over the police, to increase the number of police, or to call out--was it known to you that he had the same authority that the sheriff had in calling out the police?

A. No, sir; it was not.

Q. Did he make any proclamation calling for police?

A. He made some proclamation. I cannot tell you what it was--do not recollect what it was.

Q. Did you ever examine to see what powers are given to the mayor by your city charter?

A. I did not in regard to Allegheny City. After Sunday, I was more with Mayor Phillips, and more on that side than I was on this. I believe Colonel Scott telegraphed to me himself, and said that they would commence laying the tracks, if their men would be protected, and I went to Mr. Shinn and got him to send an answer to him that they would be, and I would lay the matter before the committee the next morning. Immediately on the committee convening, I brought the matter before them, and the committee answered Colonel Scott that they would be protected. I went out of the committee myself, and started up to meet Mr. Pitcairn at the office of Mr. Layng, and stated to Mr. Layng in regard to that telegram, and my own impression that they should put the men on to work to feel their way, and if they were interfered with to withdraw them, that I believed that before night would come that they would have more men than they would know what to do with, and that was the result. I spoke of being out on Sunday and not seeing any of the officials of the railroad at all. I think they did right. I do not think it would have been prudent for them to be there. I advised those I knew to keep away. You could not tell to what extent this excitement would lead a man, nor you could not tell how bad men were. They might have been seriously injured, if not killed, if any one of them had gone into a crowd of that kind.

Q. Would the presence of the railroad officials have tended to exasperate the crowd, do you think?

A. Yes, sir. I don't think it would have been safe for them to have been there. I think it would have exasperated them.

Q. Where was Adjutant Latta during the day--Sunday?

A. I think he was at the Monongahela house, with Cassatt--I think he was there.

Q. Until what hour?

A. I was introduced to him when I took Mr. Cassatt across to Allegheny City. It must have been between eleven and twelve o'clock. I left him there, and I was not back to the Monongahela house after that. I learned they had gone down the river to Beaver. I think General Latta was along. There was a number of gentlemen there. Mr. Cassatt was anxious in regard to the soldiers that they had. I did not know the condition of them, nor did he--how these men that had come from Philadelphia were. He appeared to be under the impression that they had got out, and had neither provision nor ammunition, and I said that I could fix a way that they could have the supplies--that there were parties in Allegheny who would attend to that. I went down on Monday to Mr. Ray, and he sent them out provisions, and told me afterwards that they had removed their head-quarters, and he had followed them up to Blairsville, and had delivered them cooked provisions.

Q. Who is Mr. Ray?

A. He is a grocer on Liberty street.

Q. In Allegheny City?

A. No, sir; Pittsburgh.

Q. Would it have been prudent for the Adjutant General to have remained in the city during the day, Sunday?

A. To have gone into the crowd?

Q. Yes; or remained in the city?

A. I do not think there would have been a hair of his head harmed.

Q. Would it have been prudent for the other State officials?

A. If they had remained at the Monongahela house they would not have been disturbed.

Q. If the Adjutant General had gone to the scene of the riot, would he have been disturbed?

A. I think there would have been danger. Any man went in at the peril of his life--any officer went in single-handed, alone.

By Senator Yutzy:

Q. You have a very extensive knowledge of what transpired here during the riots. I want to know whether, in your opinion, there was a disposition on the part of the city and county authorities to protect property and to suppress the riot. If so, could they have done so?

A. I have not any doubt in my own mind, but the----

Q. Not the citizens. I am speaking of the city and county officials?

A. In regard to the county officials, I was not with them. So far as my knowledge goes, I was acquainted, at the time, from talking as I would with Mr. Barr, or Slagle, or any of the gentlemen, and I believe they were all anxious to try to prevent any loss of life or property, and do all that was in their power.

Q. And could they have done so, if they had made a vigorous effort to do so--protect the property and prevent the lawlessness?

A. After the riot got started they could not have done it. If we had the full force we would have only had about two hundred policemen, and they would not have been able to have done very much, and the sheriff could not have done very much by calling upon the people and telling them that he wanted them to stop. Nothing but imperiling their lives. They would keep away from him. I do not think he had much chance of doing anything.

Q. It is only a matter of opinion?

A. You could readily understand that those men, with the force that they could command, would be small in comparison. After the firing I have no doubt the report that there was ten or twenty killed, where there was one, did create a fearful excitement, and I do not think any sheriff of any county could have done anything at all that would have stopped it, after it had once got started as it had on Sunday morning.

By Mr. Englebert:

Q. Did you take any active steps prior to Saturday evening?

A. No, sir; I did not really feel very uneasy about the matter until Saturday afternoon, when I learned--I was not taking much interest in the matter, and I got very much this way--the railroad people, this was a matter they were tending to, but that there was going to be any riot--there might be some quarreling, fighting, or something of that kind, but I didn't expect there was going to be anything of the magnitude it was. On Saturday, I felt concerned about the matter, and the reason for being concerned was, that I knew that the manufacturing establishments were idle, and the men were off work, and that they were there, and if you have had anything to do with iron men, you know they are a class of men who are easily excited.

Q. You, as a business man, would have closed up all business at that time, under this state of excitement?

A. As a business man, when I found it was necessary to get the military in there, I would not have undertaken to have done that on Saturday afternoon. I would have waited until the men were employed on Monday, or Tuesday, and then there would not be the danger that there was in doing it on Saturday.

Q. The majority of men being off, of course there was great travel on the streets?

A. Yes, sir.

By Senator Yutzy:

Q. You felt satisfied and easy that there would not be any disturbance up to Saturday--why did you feel easy and satisfied that there would be no trouble up to Saturday?

A. I understood that the military were here, and that would intimidate them. I was tending to my own business, and really. I had not gone out at all to see what was going on on the railroad, although we have a mill opposite, within a mile, perhaps, of the outer depot, across the river, and I came back and forward and everything was quiet; but when I heard of the loss of life and of the firing, which, I think took place on Saturday, and the men coming across and going into the gun shops in the town, breaking them open and destroying them, then I felt that there was danger, because there is this fact: there is a large number of men that were through the war that are not afraid as those who have never smelled powder--they are not very much afraid of it, and they are brave men, and if you understood that there is danger, they say "we know," and you cannot do anything with them. The idea was this: The first I heard of it that they had shot into a crowd, killing men, women, and children indiscriminately. These men are men who are ready to believe anything of the kind, and they will believe what is said among themselves quicker than they would from you or me or anybody else on the outside. They were excited and exasperated, and then you cannot control them, but the men about our mills are not bad men, all of them. We have bad men there and they will get into the mills, but I do not think there is a better class of men anywhere than in Pittsburgh. My own theory is, that these tramps along the line of the railroad had a knowledge of this strike, and might have been congregating in here for two weeks, and these men are always ready to apply the torch at any moment. They came in here and got into it. I think a great many of the railroad men had nothing to do, and had no idea whatever of getting anything but their wages--no idea of any loss of life or destruction of property; but when they got in there they had no control of this thing, and they did not know themselves whether the men that had been in the lodge room, perhaps, were with them or against them. The people were paralyzed at the magnitude of this thing.

By Senator Yutzy:

Q. You have a general acquaintance and knowledge of the manufacturing interests of this State. Is there a larger proportion of employés in the manufactories and mining in this vicinity than there is elsewhere in this State?

A. I think there is; I am not familiar with any place where the proportion is so large as it is just here in our city.

* * * * *

J. Howard Logan being duly _sworn_, testified as follows:

By Mr. Lindsey:

Q. Where do you live?

A. Lincoln avenue, Allegheny.

Q. What is your occupation?

A. 1 have a foundry in New Brighton. Doing business in Pittsburgh.

Q. State whether you were with Doctor Donnelly on Sunday, the 22d of July?

A. I went to the meeting at the old city hall, in Market street, four o'clock, Sunday afternoon, and joined the citizens' organization to go up and stop the riot and firing. We had great trouble getting arms. At first we went to the university, and failed to get them there. Then went down and got pick-handles from a hardware store on Wood street. After that we were marched up to the university again, but failed to get them, and from there we went to one of the armories of the Fourteenth regiment or Nineteenth, and failed to get any arms there. We marched back again to the university, and we got some old rusty muskets, with bayonets. There were plenty of men willing to go; but being marched around from one place to another they dropped off. We got these old muskets, and had about a hundred. We marched down to the mayor's office, and from there we went up Liberty street to Wood, right into the midst of the crowd, and attempted to form a line right across Liberty street, at the edge of the crowd; but we were surrounded, individually, and failed to do that. Doctor Donnelly, who was leading, seemed to have lost control of the men, and seemed to be very much excited. We stayed there about ten minutes without accomplishing anything, except having pistols at our heads all around, and nothing to defend ourselves with but these rusty muskets.

Q. Without any ammunition?

A. Without any ammunition or anything else. Probably one or two of the party, or a few of them, had revolvers, but the majority of us had not.

Q. What did you do then?

A. We got started, and about half of the company went out, and the balance of us turned around and came out then, feeling that we were whipped.

Q. Then you had not the means to cope--arms or weapons to cope with the crowd?

A. No, sir. There were a number lost their muskets in wrestling with the crowd, but they were willing to fight or do anything to hold on to them, but we were powerless because we had nothing to defend ourselves with.

By Senator Yutzy:

Q. Were the muskets wrenched from their hands?

A. In some cases they were.

Q. Did your men fight them, or use the bayonet?

A. Didn't use the bayonets. We held on to them, and pulled them away. It was very fortunate for us that there were no pistol shots fired, or we would all have been cut to pieces, because all the crowd were armed, and we were not.

Q. If you had had a bold, deliberate leader, and been well armed, could you have accomplished anything in the way of driving away the crowd?

A. We might have done something just at that place, but we did not have more than enough to protect that one spot which we were at.

Q. Where was that?

A. That was on Liberty street, just in front of the elevator.

Q. In front of the elevator?

A. Yes; down from the elevator.

Q. What time was it?

A. About six o'clock.

Q. Sunday evening?

A. Between five and six.

Q. Was there any trouble in raising a company of citizens at that time?

A. No, sir; there were more than we had arms for--more ready to go than we could get muskets for, and some, when we could get these imperfect muskets, were afraid to go into the crowd with them. When we came down from there we deposited what arms we had in the mayor's office, in charge of a policeman there, and some of them scattered and went to the depot--the Duquesne depot--and others to the depots or upon the street, individually.

Q. What did you do Sunday night yourself?

A. I went over to Allegheny; found the citizens were organizing there and about starting out to guard the bridges. I went with a party to the railroad bridge and was there that night. I had a revolver with me then.

Q. The railroad bridge?

A. The railroad bridge across the Allegheny river at the Fort Wayne road.

Q. Was that well guarded by citizens?

A. There was about fifteen or twenty, armed with muskets and revolvers.

Q. What class of citizens?

A. There were several policemen and some officers and men from Allegheny.

Q. Were you molested during the night?

A. No, sir; the orders were from the mayor to stop every person coming over that bridge, and let no one pass. We turned a great many men coming over there--we turned them back, and made them go around to the other bridges.

Q. Allowed nobody to pass?

A. Allowed no person except a few whom the policemen recognized as living right near there, and were respectable people. Any person we didn't know we made them go back.

* * * * *

James I. Bennett, being recalled, testified as follows:

The Witness. Our city is surrounded by large mining interests, in which thousands of men are engaged, and they come in on the trains Saturday to do their marketing and other trading. When we learned of all this thing--of what was going on Sunday--they came in a distance of four or five or six miles, and perhaps there might have been thousands of these men that came in on Sunday and on Monday. The works were nearly all stopped, and these men were flowing in here in any number, and I think only for the organization that the citizens had themselves perfected on Monday, that I do not know what the consequences might have been later in the week, but they saw that there was a preparation to meet them, and the thing was stopped.

At this point the committee adjourned until to-morrow morning, at ten o'clock.

PITTSBURGH, _Thursday, February 21, 1878_.

The committee met, pursuant to adjournment, at ten o'clock, A.M., Mr. Lindsey in the chair, and continued the taking of testimony.

All members present except Senator Reyburn.

* * * * *

John H. Webster, being duly _sworn_, testified as follows:

By Mr. Lindsey:

Q. Where do you reside?

A. Twenty-fourth ward, south side.

Q. What is your business?

A. Machinist.

Q. What firm are you at work for--Jones & Laughlin?

A. American Iron Works.

Q. Were you at work for them last July?

A. I have worked for them for over twelve years.

Q. Were you at the scene of the riots, near the Union depot, on Saturday?

A. No, sir.

Q. Were you on Saturday night?

A. No, sir.

Q. Were you on Sunday?

A. I was on a hill immediately above.

Q. On Sunday?

A. Yes; got there about ten o'clock. I suppose it was somewhere in the neighborhood of ten o'clock.

Q. That was your first appearance in the vicinity of the riots?

A. First appearance.

Q. How large a crowd was there, when you got there Sunday?

A. There was an immense crowd.

Q. Of what class of people was the crowd composed principally?

A. All classes.

Q. Were there railroad employés there?

A. I couldn't say whether there was or not.

Q. Were there mill men and factory men and employés in the shops about Pittsburgh there?

A. Not that I seen of upon the hill where I was. I don't know what was done on the track, I was away up top of the hill.

Q. How long did you remain up at the top of the hill?

A. I followed the firing down until the Union depot got fired, then it got too warm for me, and I came away.

Q. Were you down near the track when you followed the firing along?

A. I was up on the hill.

Q. Were you near the elevator?

A. Coming down I passed the elevator, and got on Liberty street, and the crowd made a rush, and came near knocking me down. I got down near the corner of Penn street and stayed there, and watched the Union depot burn.

Q. Did you have any conversation with those that were engaged in burning?

A. When I first made my way on the upper part of the hill, there was a number of young men lying on the ground under a fence, a tree, or something, and I asked one of them--he appeared to be lively, he was lying, kicking, and looked as though he was hard at work. Says I, "When is this thing going to stop?" Says he, "At the elevator." Says I, "You ain't gone that far." Says he, "Yes, that has got to come down, too;" and I left him, after talking a few minutes about that.

Q. Who was he?

A. I don't know who he was.

Q. Strangers?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Where did you go?

A. I went on from there down to look at the firing, and see all that could be seen.

Q. When you arrived at the elevator, did you have any conversation with anybody there?

A. Oh, yes; had a conversation with almost everybody--talking to each other.

Q. Did you say that the elevator was going to be burned?

A. I told several parties what this party had told me on the hill, that he allowed it would come to the elevator, and I began to think there was a good deal of truth in it, because the Union depot was on fire.

Q. Did you see Daniel Corbus near the elevator?

A. I met him at the corner of Fifth and Fulton streets, and we walked down together. I told him what these parties had told me--they were going to burn down the elevator, that was a damn monopoly, too.

Q. Did you say to Daniel Corbus that the elevator had got to be burned--that it was a monopoly, and had got to be burned?

A. I didn't tell him that, because I was taking no active part in it.

Q. Did you tell him that the other party said it was a damn monopoly, and had got to come down.

A. Yes, sir. The railroad officials had stock in it, and they were death on railroads.

Q. You had no participation at all in what was going on?

A. No, sir; just went over to see the fire, and to see what was going on.

Q. How many were with this fellow that made this remark to you?

A. There was some four or five of them laying there, I think.

Q. Was this fellow intoxicated, did you think?

A. He appeared to be perfectly sober.

Q. What for a dressed man was he? How was he dressed?

A. From the appearance of him--he was not dressed any better than I am just at the present time--dirty.

Q. Did his dress indicate a railroad employé or a factory man?

A. I couldn't judge that from his dress. Couldn't say what he was by that--by his dress.

Q. He was dressed like a laboring man?

A. Yes; he was dressed like a workingman.

Q. What time did you leave the depot or elevator?

A. I left when I was standing on Liberty street. I left the time the Union depot fell.

Q. About what time in the afternoon was that?

A. Somewhere very near six o'clock.

Q. Did you go back again?

A. No, sir; stayed home all night. I overheard a couple of gentlemen saying that a committee had been talking to the crowd, and gotten the promise not to burn the elevator. I thought the firing had stopped there.

* * * * *

Irvin K. Campbell, being duly _sworn_, testified as follows:

By Mr. Lindsey:

Q. Where do you reside?

A. Ninth ward, Allegheny City.

Q. What is your occupation?

A. I am a foreman of the hinge factory of Lewis, Oliver & Philips.

Q. How long have you occupied that position?

A. About three years--possibly four. Between three and four.

Q. Were you near the scene of the riots any time during July last, in any of the days and nights?

A. I heard of the firing on the citizens about six o'clock, and I came up on what we call the Cleveland train, and got to Twenty-eighth street, probably at eight o'clock.

Q. What was?

A. That was on Saturday evening--the evening after the firing.

Q. Twenty-eighth street? What time?

A. It was probably half past eight o'clock.

Q. When you got there how much of a crowd did you find there?

A. There was not much of a crowd when I was there. The troops had gone into the round-house, and I inquired why they went in, and received no satisfactory answer. I supposed I was acquainted with some of the troops that went in, and inquired for Colonel Howard, of the Nineteenth. I was acquainted with Mr. Howard, and served in the same regiment in the army, and talked of going in and advising Colonel Howard to get out of the round-house, and was advised not to go in; that the men were scared enough to shoot any man.

Q. Who advised you this?