Chapter C: A. Fife, sworn with uplifted hand (15)

Q. Did you see any of the policemen carrying away any goods?

A. I did not; and don't believe they did.

Q. Did you see any of them taking cigars or anything of that kind?

A. Yes; I know what you are coming at now; I had forgotten all about it. We have not been going on chronology, we have been switching off. I saw a number of police throwing what I supposed to be segars, in fact I might say I know, to the mob. The circumstances were these.

Q. Thrown by the police to the mob?

A. O, yes; precisely that and nothing else. You will remember that I said that I telegraphed to detain the policemen, and send them up there on Sunday morning. I got up there pretty late, and the policemen were waiting on me. I hadn't much confidence in any person we had, because I knew that the retreat and dispersal of the soldiers had emboldened the disorderly, and they thought when the soldiers would leave the mob, that the citizens had no chance, and the community were demoralized. I got about twenty policemen, I think, and I thought it would be a good thing to put them to light work and put a little spirit in them. I took them around and told them to go up the wall and drive those thieves away. I didn't get on the wall, I walked down alongside the wall to witness their operations. As soon as the police mounted the wall and the thieves saw them--I kept down with the police the great body of them; I followed on the street and they upon the wall, and the wall was clear for a very few minutes, and I happened to turn my eye up, and I saw a policeman with a bundle of those soft felt hats that are piled on top of one another, and he was throwing them down to the crowd in the street, and I rushed up for him, and shook my fist at him, and used some choice Italian, and then he stopped, and after talking a little string to him I turned, and down the line I saw a couple of policemen jump into a car and throw things out--they were cigars--and they threw things down to the crowd. I rushed down there and bellowed like a mad bull at them, and they stopped finally, but the moral effect of their previous conduct was gone, and the crowd mounted the hill like so many rats, and that was the end of that business. The men engaged in that were two lieutenants, and I am free to say there were not two better men in the force, but they lost their heads; they were completely surrounded by fire, and they thought those things would burn up, and as they would be burned up they just thought they might mollify the crowd--a very mistaken idea--by throwing these things to the crowd. It was from no desire to help the mob, but they had ignored the moral principle involved that they had no right to touch anything, except for the sole and only purpose of preserving it for its owner, and no other purpose. They had forgotten that part of their catechism.

By Senator Yutzy:

Q. In other words, the police were demoralized as well as the citizens?

A. At that moment they were. I don't think these men would ever do a thing of that kind again.

By Mr. Lindsey:

Q. What was done with those policemen for that act?

A. I dropped them. I could not do anything else.

By Senator Yutzy:

Q. Discharged them?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Are they on the force now?

A. That I can't say. I do not know anything about the present force?

Q. Did you discharge them permanently?

A. They left, certainly, and were never on again. They were on again for some days afterwards, for I had too many things to attend to, to attend to them just at once. I pitied the men, because I knew them to be good men, and I am very confident they will never do so again. It took the starch out of me. I was demoralized by it. There are some things you haven't asked me questions about. There was some talk here the other day about protection to the fire department.

By Senator Reyburn:

Q. There has been some testimony that citizens, about the time they were breaking into these gun stores, came and offered to be sworn--state what you know about that?

A. That was by Follensbee. Mr. Follensbee came there and offered. He came to the office very much demoralized.

By Mr. Lindsey:

Q. Just state the fact whether he offered his services, and then whether you accepted or not, and then give the reason why you didn't accept him?

A. I don't know whether he offered his services or not. There were more men, during these two or three hours that I was assigning these men to duty--there were more men who came in there, in the capacity of military strategists, than would be enough to run the United States and Confederate army during the rebellion, and I was annoyed to death with every man coming in there who had some plan. I could not get my wits together. This Mr. Follensbee came there. I have no recollection personally of what he said, but I do know that he was very sadly demoralized with something stronger than I am going to take now. He is a good gentleman, as honest a man as ever lived.

Q. You did not swear him in?

A. No.

Q. Was that the reason why you did not?

A. Oh, yes.

Q. Did any other gentlemen with him offer their services?

A. Not that I know of. There was so many people came in and talked about so many things, and how this, that, and the other thing could be done, that I thought of getting a stuffed club to beat them out with.

Q. Did you send any policemen to Mr. Bown's store?

A. Undoubtedly. I suppose there was a dozen there. They were over-powered by the momentum of the mob, and Lieutenant Chalfant was knocked down, as I was told by the policemen a few days afterwards, when we began to gather up our wits. I was told that some of the policemen that were there tried to keep the pavement clear, and took out their pistols, and citizens who were there requested them to put them up, and not use them--that they would be murdered.

Q. Just state what you know--what came under your own observation?

A. Nothing came under my observation there. You won't know how to probe this thing, unless I told you what can be shown.

By Senator Reyburn:

Q. I am inclined to think that anything in the police officers' reports--the police officers reporting to you, in an official capacity--would be testimony?

A. Now, about Follensbee. The city clerk was down in front of Mr. Bown's, and there was not a very great many people. They had been trying to keep the people moving. Mr. Follensbee was standing there, and the city clerk appeared to go that way----

Q. We have had the city clerk's report of that, from himself, which is much better evidence than coming from a second party. All we want to know, is just what came under your observation, and what was officially reported to you by your policemen?

A. I sent men there, and I know they went there.

Q. You say you sent about a dozen policemen there?

A. I suppose there must have been a dozen, and I know, from the report of the police to me, that they endeavored to keep the crowd back, and did keep the crowd back, and that one man in the crowd counted one, two, three, four, and up to ten--they are no count, and the whole crowd made a rush at them, and Lieutenant Chalfant was knocked down, and the momentum of the crowd carried the crowd out of sight. They had thrown stones at the heads of them, and broken the windows.

Q. You didn't make any effort to get any greater number of policemen to send there?

A. We had to ... half a dozen places at the same time. We just done the best we could, and possibly might have done better, if there had not been so many strategists coming there to bother us.

Q. Did you send any policemen to protect the fire companies?

A. Why, yes, sir.

Q. Whom did you send?

A. I was there myself, with fifteen policemen.

Q. Whom did you offer assistance to?

A. Let me tell you.

Q. Just answer the question?

A. We can get to that better.

Q. Whom did you offer assistance to?

A. To the man in charge.

Q. Who was he?

A. I don't know what his name was.

Q. What street was it?

A. It was, as I think, at the corner of Twentieth and Liberty. You can't understand this, unless you let me tell the story.

Q. At what time?

A. I can't give you any hour. I know nothing of time.

Q. You offered assistance to the man in charge. What was he doing?

A. He was throwing water on French's spring works. You better let me tell the story. You are cutting it up.

Q. What did he say?

A. He says to me, says he, "I won't do it--I am not going to risk my life--if you want to take charge of this thing you can do it."

Q. He was throwing water at that time without any molestation from the mob?

A. Certainly; and the police was stationed across the street to protect them. Whether they would have stood fire or not, I can't tell.

Q. What assistance did you offer him?

A. The police that were there within thirty feet of me.

Q. If he was not molested by the mob at that time, he wanted no further assistance?

A. You won't let me tell this story straight. If you let me commence at the beginning you will understand it.

Q. Did you offer assistance at any other time than the one you speak of now?

A. I told you that I offered assistance on Saturday night, and it was refused.

Q. To whom did you offer the assistance on Saturday night?

A. I sent Officer Coulson to the fire department to tell them to come and aid the police.

Q. We have had Officer Coulson and his story?

A. On Sunday morning, when the fire had crossed Liberty street, I went to hunt the chief of the fire department, and could not find him, to concert measures with him. That is the time I talked about the water arrangement. Then a man connected with the Pennsylvania railroad came to me, and says he, "If I get an engine at the corner of Twentieth street to throw water on the railroad cars will you have the police force there to protect me?" Says I, "I will." I immediately went and I gathered about fifteen policemen, as nigh as I can guess, and had them at the corner of Twentieth street. I think it is at the lower end of French's spring works. I had them there a very long time, and no engine appeared. John Coyle, a member of the bar here, came along and spoke to me, and I said to him, says I, "John"--I told him the facts--"come along with me, I want to hunt this thing up," and we went up to find the chief, and we didn't find him. We found Commissioner Coates, the man that had a pistol at his head and lived to tell the tale. He said he had an engine. I left Mr. Coyle and came down. Coyle went about his business; and I saw an engine coming down one of the cross-streets--Penn street--and I went over to see where it was going, and it went away down town. I went back to where I had the police stationed waiting for the engine to come. After a very great delay, the engine came and attached to a fire plug; but instead of throwing water upon the burning cars, opposite to this street where we were, he commenced throwing upon French's spring works. Then Mr. Houseman I think it is--the gentleman who had made the request of me--I went to him and said something to him, and he came back to me and said, "These men won't do anything. You come and see what you can do." I went over to him, and the answer he made was he was not going to risk his life, but if I wanted to take charge of it I could do so. But I didn't do so. Then the police--they were few in number, and not able to do anything--I just told them to go and do what they could. Then I went down town, and knew the result of the citizens' meeting.

By Mr. Larrabee:

Q. You said you did not agree, nor could not agree with the plan adopted by the sheriff and the troops, or the officers of the troops, in charge of matters, and at the same time the directions you gave your police was to be careful, and not excite the crowd, and not make these arrests. Are we to infer from that, that your plan was that you must not oppose force to them, you must handle them gingerly and tenderly. Is that what we must infer?

A. No, sir; every occasion presents its own line of action.

Q. The troops and the sheriff were trying to oppose the crowd by force and stop the riot, and you say you did not agree with their plan of action?

A. I don't. I think that the military force is only to be used in case of the very last resort.

Q. In ordering your policemen not to make these arrests, are we to infer----

A. Infer and understand this, that in ordering these policemen to be careful how they made arrests, it was after I had considered I had been superseded, and I wanted them to make the arrests when they made them in such a way as not to create any disturbance.

Q. Are we to infer from your evidence upon that point that your manner of managing such a mob would be to give way to them, and not oppose force to the crowd?

A. I have said nothing, I think, to indicate that.

Q. What would be your plan in such a case?

A. I would have policemen to do it. I don't think the policemen would create such a truculent feeling as an arrest by the use of military.

Q. You think then that the police are the proper force to use on such occasions?

A. Until you ascertain you can do nothing with them, until all other means have failed, and then, and not till then, are the military to be used.

Q. Did you attempt at any time on Sunday to gather your police force in a body so as to have an organized force large enough to accomplish something?

A. I could not get any force on Sunday large enough.

Q. You got fifteen--you say there was fifty or sixty policemen--did you undertake to gather that body?

A. I did not say there was fifty or sixty policemen. I am talking now about the night before.

Q. I think the question was asked you how many there was about there on Sunday?

A. I could not tell how many were there. I know only a small body of them could be got together, and then they began to collect the men who had went home in the morning before we knew that the soldiers had been withdrawn--they began to gather in before dark--then we had a pretty good force, and then with such assistance as citizens gave, we broke the back of the riot--we knocked them right and left.

Q. Hadn't whisky helped a good deal at that time to place them _hors du combat_?

A. I don't know about it myself, I do not drink it.

Q. I did not ask you as a connoisseur.

A. I think it had the effect to make the crowd vicious. I thought so when I was in their hands.

Q. This Sunday night and Monday morning was when you first began to regain some control there?

A. We got control--from dark on Sunday evening we had control.

Q. The mob had kind of petered out then?

A. Yes, and they had been licked out by the police and citizens.

Q. Where had there been any set-to where the mob had been licked--at what place?

A. At the Fort Wayne depot, at the intersection of Tenth and Liberty street.

Q. What police had had the set-to with the crowd at the Fort Wayne depot?

A. There was eight or ten policemen went there when the car was afire, and they put that out, and they were assisted by citizens also.

Q. How large a crowd did they find to contend with?

A. I don't know, it was an accomplished fact. The mob began to break in stores, and commenced at the corner opposite to Tenth on Liberty street, and the police and the mob had the battle there.

Q. How many police were there engaged in that battle?

A. There was a considerable number.

Q. Do you know how large a crowd there was there?

A. I am told the streets are full.

Q. What kind of a crowd was it?

A. Breaking into stores.

Q. The same crowd that had been burning cars?

A. I don't know.

Q. What was it composed of--this crowd running about the streets?

A. They were composed of men and boys. We had another battle with them at Seventeenth.

Q. This crowd that was plundering was easily dispersed at any time?

A. Easy. They were not people to be afraid of.

Q. Who were the people to be afraid of?

A. Those standing around doing nothing.

Q. Was there an apparent organization among them?

A. I don't know.

Q. Could you judge?

A. I don't know whether there was an organization; there appeared to be a common feeling. I was astonished from the fact that I didn't know them.

By Senator Yutzy:

Q. They appeared to be strangers?

A. They were strangers to me, I did not recognize them.

Q. In your intimate acquaintance with the people, you would take them to be people from elsewhere?

A. I thought I knew the people about Pittsburgh, but I didn't know these. I don't want to swear that they were strangers. I don't know that I know. I was recognized, and I thought I ought to recognize a great many of them.

Q. Those that were engaged in the act of rioting and police?

A. I am speaking more especially of those who captured me in the railroad yard, and carried me out in front of the depot.

By Mr. Engelbert:

Q. They did that systematically, did they?

A. Oh, yes; carried me right out.

By Senator Yutzy:

Q. Did you, at any time during the riots, employ your night force in the day time?

A. Such of them as we could get. Understand this, my idea of this matter was that the soldiers, having possession of the railroad property, were cooped up for the night, and that when daylight would appear they would go out into the open ground, and take possession of things. My idea was, they went into this place to prevent being pushed back during the night. The great body of the police force went off at six o'clock in the morning. I, supposing that the police would have nothing to do, except to do street duty under this excitement, and had instructed the chief of police to call upon the discharged policemen, supposing that he could get plenty of them, but that expectation was not realized, and not expecting that the soldiers would leave the city at the time they did, had given no orders to keep the night policemen on duty that morning; but when I found that the soldiers had all dispersed, I telegraphed down to the central station to detain such policemen as were there--and there were some there--and they were detained, and they were on duty all day.

Q. Did you make any effort to re-assemble the night police after you ascertained they had left?

A. Could not do it.

Q. Did you make any effort?

A. Could not do it.

Q. Could not you find them?

A. You couldn't get a man to go after them--the great body of them--until night would come. You would get them just as soon by waiting until they came on duty.

Q. Didn't you have the address in your mind?

A. Yes; and knew where they lived. We had plenty to do without doing that.

Q. Any more important duty to perform than to get these men to assemble?

A. That would depend altogether upon what the man in charge thought. I thought the most important duty was to have the police up there--all we could get--and let them do what they could.

Q. Without calling on the night police?

A. If we had means of calling on the night force to gather them in, it would have been done, but, to do so, we would have had to abandon everything else for the time being. Possibly, that might have been as well, though. When I went to the corner of Seventh and Grant streets, I found the firemen playing there, and the police having charge of the ropes--keeping the crowd away from them.

Q. Did you employ all your powers during these riots, regardless of any other efforts adopted to subdue the riots, in preserving the peace?

A. What do you call during the riots?

Q. The time from Thursday until Sunday?

A. Because I didn't think there was any riot before five o'clock on Saturday.

Mr. Lindsey: That question requires a direct answer--yes or no.

By Senator Yutzy:

Q. Did you exhaust all your powers during the riots, irrespective of these other parties?

A. I say there was no riot until four or five o'clock in the morning, when the soldiers charged bayonets on the crowd.

Q. Including all within the time from Thursday until Monday, did you exhaust----

A. I knew of no riots until the soldiers charged bayonets on the people. I have answered that question a dozen of times.

Q. Answer it yes or no?

A. I will not answer it yes or no. All my powers were exhausted in preserving the peace so far as I thought I could exercise them. That is the answer to that question.

Q. Have you any call--is there any call to assemble the police, by telegraph or otherwise?

A. We have a police telegraph from each station-house. We send messages on it every day.

Q. There is no particular call by which you assemble your police?

A. There is no alarm.

By Mr. Lindsey:

Q. I want to ask the mayor a question in connection with his answer to this. He says he used all his powers in preserving the peace, so far as he could exercise them. Was there anything to prevent you from exercising your powers as mayor?

A. Yes; the ground had been occupied by the State military and the sheriff, and occupied in a way that it was utterly impossible for me to act with them.

Q. And it was the only thing that prevented you from exercising your powers?

A. I will say that there was a party went down to the depot--the Duquesne depot--Sunday afternoon, stating he was going to set it afire. That man was arrested by the police, assisted by some citizens, and taken to the lock-up.

Q. You know that there was an assemblage of men at or near Twenty-eighth street during the day, on Friday, don't you?

A. I presume there was, or Mr. Watt would not have come down there and asked for police?

Q. For the purpose of protecting trains going out?

A. No, sir; I didn't know that. I don't think I knew that.

Q. For what purpose were they assembled there, so far as you know?

A. I only knew about them from Mr. Watt, and what he told me, I have forgotten now.

Q. You have forgotten what he told you?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did you take any measures to ascertain what the purpose of the assemblage was?

A. I think Mr. Watt must have told me what it was, and I judge so. The first thing I heard after the police went there, was that a man had struck Mr. Watt.

Q. I want to know if you don't know that during the day on Friday, and during the day Saturday, there was a large assemblage of men at or near Twenty-eighth street?

A. I knew that by common report, and hearing the police talk.

Q. Was not that an unlawful assemblage of men?

A. It may have been an unlawful assemblage of men.

Q. Didn't you know it was an unlawful assemblage of men?

A. I don't know, I presume it would have been an unlawful assemblage. I presume that they were there for an unlawful purpose.

Q. You did not take any pains to disperse that assemblage?

A. Have I not answered that question a dozen times?

Q. What is your answer? Did you take any measures to disperse that assemblage?

A. I didn't for the reason that I have given you--for the reason I repeated a dozen times to different other questions, in different forms. There is a good deal more I would like to tell you.

Q. You say on Thursday you sent police officers there, and they got on a train, and they attempted to run that train out?

A. And couldn't run it out.

Q. Why didn't they run it out?

A. Because the engineer stepped down and out.

Q. Why did he step down and out?

A. Because he wanted to.

Q. Was there any men taken by force?

A. Oh, no.

Q. Was there a crowd there at that time?

A. I suppose there were a great many people there. I have no doubt there was.

Q. Don't you think it was an unlawful assemblage, and that it was your duty, as mayor, to have gone there, and have dispersed that crowd?

A. The police were there preserving the peace. They were there and preserved the peace to such an extent, that the police say that they were on that train, and that train could go out. There was nothing to hinder it, if the engineer had stuck to his post; but, instead of that, he stepped off his engine, and left the police in charge. That is the report of the police to me?

Q. Wasn't it your duty to disperse that crowd there, as mayor of the city?

A. No; because I knew nothing of the details of that, at this time; because Mr. Watt got all the police that he needed, and they got more than they wanted--said they had more than they wanted, and they had the direction of them there, and the presumption is that the police did just what they wanted them to, and the only breach of the peace that occurred there was that of which Mr. McCall was arrested for--striking Mr. Watt--and taken to the station.

Q. Was not the train uncoupled? When they attempted to start that train, didn't they rush on and uncouple the cars?

A. I guess you are talking about the trains they attempted to run early in the morning, before the police came there. That is what I think. It was on that occasion that Mr. Watt came down after the ten policemen.

Q. Didn't Mr. Watt tell you of the circumstances?

A. I suppose he did.

Q. Didn't you have knowledge then that there had been a riot, or, at least, a disorderly crowd there, and wasn't it your duty then to protect those people?

A. And for the purpose of doing that, Mr. Watt came and asked for a certain number of policemen--for what he thought was sufficient--and they were soon there?

Q. And still you allowed that crowd to remain there?

A. That is not a fair way to put it.

Q. I want to get at the reasons that actuated you?

A. I didn't know anything of the nature of that crowd. I knew nothing more at the time than that Mr. Watt wanted ten men, and ten men was sufficient to control it. That was sufficient. They were there, and there was only one breach of the peace, and that man was arrested, and when this train, between three and four o'clock, undertook to be run out, it could have been run out.

Q. Did the crowd intimidate the engineer in any way, do you know?

A. I understood the police that he was not intimidated--that he could have gone out with the train, if he thought proper. They were there to protect him in so doing. They told me he could have gone out, if he had chosen. I don't know who he is, anything about him. I guess it was the last effort made to run a train out.

By Senator Yutzy:

Q. Did you consider at any time until the military arrived that the crowd that assembled there was an illegal crowd?

A. Oh, no; I didn't think it amounted to shucks.

Q. You consider there was no riot or mob nor illegal assemblage at any time before the military arrived?

A. I knew that there were men in a crowd.

Q. Answer that question now. You consider there was no illegal assemblage, mob, or riot previous to the arrival of the military?

A. I think that in the ordinary acceptation of the word mob and riot, there was no mob and riot previous to the military coming there.

Q. Or illegal assemblage of people?

A. I think any persons that go on the Pennsylvania Railroad Company's ground, don't obey their lawful orders and proper orders, that it is an unlawful assemblage.

Q. Was there any illegal assemblage?

A. I have no doubt there was.

Q. Were you aware of that?

A. I must have been aware. It could not have been otherwise.

Q. Did you make any efforts to disperse them?

A. Yes; I gave the Pennsylvania Railroad Company all the police they asked for.

Q. Did you drive them off?

A. I don't think they were driven off, but the Pennsylvania railroad got all the police they asked for.

Q. You didn't give them the officer they asked for?

A. In asking for me?

Q. Yes; you?

A. No; I was not going up to head ten policemen.

Q. You required them to pay the police also?

A. No, sir; you put your statement too broad. These policemen--we took what policemen we could belonging to the city and filled up with the others who were not in the pay of the city.

Q. And those others were paid?

A. I think there must have been about twenty-nine policemen outside of such of the city folks as were considered.

Q. The extras were paid off by the Pennsylvania railroad?

A. Yes; they were paid by them.

By Mr. Lindsey:

Q. You didn't call on any of the night force to go at that time?

A. No, sir; we couldn't do that. Nothing but the most imperative necessity would require that. We only had patrolmen to cover twenty-seven square miles. At the riot on Saturday night every man was called in from the first, second, fourth, seventh, eighth, and ninth districts; they were left entirely unprotected.

At this point the committee adjourned until this afternoon, at two o'clock.

AFTERNOON SESSION.

PITTSBURGH, _Friday, February 22, 1878_.

The committee met, pursuant to adjournment, in the orphans' court room at three o'clock, P.M., Mr. Lindsey in the chair.

All members present.

* * * * *

R. L. Hamilton, _sworn_:

By Mr. Lindsey:

Q. Where do you reside?

A. 810 Penn avenue.

Q. What is your business?

A. I am a clerk for the water-works of the city of Pittsburgh--clerk of the water-works. I believe it is called, sometimes, clerk of the water extension committee.

Q. How long have you held that position?

A. I have held the position of clerk of the water-works since February, 1876--February 4, I believe.

Q. Where is your office?

A. City hall. Third floor of the city hall. Municipal hall as it is called.

Q. State whether you were at or in the vicinity of Twenty-eighth street, on Saturday the 21st day of July?

A. I was.

Q. When the firing occurred?

A. I was in the vicinity at the time of the firing.

Q. Where were you--what was your position?

A. I can hardly understand the question.

Q. Where were you in relation to where the troops stood--explain the situation you occupied?

A. At the time of the firing I was running.

Q. Which direction?

A. Well, towards Liberty street and Twenty-ninth street, to get a brick house between me and the troops.

Q. Go on, and relate what you saw, commencing at the time you arrived at, or in the vicinity of Twenty-eighth street?

A. To explain the question, there was a meeting of the water committee called for Monday evening, and some two or three members of the water committee lived out in that direction. I started at that notice, and at two o'clock I arrived at Twenty-eighth street. I went up Twenty-eighth street to the Pennsylvania railroad tracks, and when there, I was informed that the Philadelphia troops were about to come out, and I waited to see them until sometime after four o'clock. These troops came out headed by the sheriff and several citizens of Pittsburgh, and after they had formed themselves in position, the sheriff commenced speaking to the crowd, and I couldn't hear what he was saying from where I was standing, and I got on a coal truck where I thought I could hear what he was saying. When I was on this truck, one company of the Philadelphia troops--the troops, at that time, were formed in two lines facing the hill, that is, the line next me was facing the hill. I wouldn't say positively about the line nearest the hill. I was near the round-house. There was one company of the Philadelphia troops brought up in single rank, they marched up very quietly until they got to the switch below Twenty-eighth street. They were met by the crowd, that is, a crowd of men that refused to go any further. There were orders given very quietly, and another company, with black plumes on their hats, came up, and this first company was put in double rank. They tried to force the crowd back, and the order was given to charge bayonets. The officers of the Philadelphia troops were in the rear of those two companies, they were charged up on the track, and after sometime, there was an order given to fire by the different officers of the Philadelphia troops.

Q. I wish you would now repeat what you said, beginning with the order which was given to charge bayonets, commencing about there, and repeat what you said?

A. After the second company had been brought up--the company with dark plumes on their hats, I cannot tell what the uniform was--after that, there was an order given to charge bayonets, and it was a very short time after this order to charge bayonets--that was only given to the two companies, the other files were standing, the rest of the Philadelphia troops were standing in two lines on each side of the railroad track--after that order given to charge bayonets, almost immediately, I heard the command given by several officers of Philadelphia companies, that is, I suppose they were from Philadelphia. I don't know them personally, but from their uniform, and from the position in which they were. The order to fire was given by several men in the uniform of officers of that regiment.

Q. Where did you stand during this time?

A. I stood on a truck loaded with coal. The left of the railroad tracks going out almost immediately in front of the sand-house of the Pennsylvania railroad, this side of Twenty-eighth street.

Q. How far from the tracks?

A. I could have stooped down and touched three of the militia with my hands, by stooping.

Q. How far were you from them at the time the order to charge bayonets was given?

A. I was in the same position. I had not left that position from the time I got up there to see what was said by the sheriff until I heard the order given.

Q. What officers gave the order to charge bayonets?

A. I couldn't say. I heard, but I couldn't say how it was given. The orders at that time were given very low. It was not to the whole regiment.

Q. From what direction did the order come?

A. Right from the rear of the two companies that were marched up the track, and they were not charging when the order was given.

Q. How did they have their arms when the order to charge bayonets was given?

A. The two companies, I think the whole of them, were at carry arms, from what I know of the present tactics.

Q. Were any of them at arms port?

A. Some of them in the charging parties had their guns at arms port--some of the charging party.

Q. Did you hear that command given?

A. No, sir; I didn't hear that command given, but I know now that some of them had their guns at arms port, because I remember the guns being in the position of arms port--some of them. A party directly in front of me were at carry arms.

Q. They were standing still?

A. Yes. They were in line. I think they were at a carry, so far as I can remember. I cannot swear positively as to that.

Q. When you heard the command given to charge bayonets, how close were those two companies to the mob?

A. Just as close as they could get.

Q. And the mob resisted them?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. When the order was given to charge bayonets, did the two companies obey the order.

A. Part of them did. I could see them lunge with their bayonets--try to force them back.

Q. Did the crowd resist that charge?

A. Some of them did; yes, sir.

Q. And attempted to pull----

A. I heard parties say that if they would let them out in any way, they would be glad to do so. It was the crowd back of them that was holding them in. Others resisted.

Q. Did they try to pull the bayonets off the guns?

A. I saw them wrenching with the guns. Saw them wrenching the guns, and heard remarks made by different parties in front of the party charging bayonets that if they would give them room to get back they didn't want to interfere. I heard these remarks made from where I was.

Q. And the command to fire, you say, was given by captains?

A. I don't know about captains. I say officers of the Philadelphia companies that the word "fire" was given by.

Q. By officers of companies?

A. Company officers is what I say the word was given by.

Q. And not by field officers?

A. I wouldn't know that the field officers were with that regiment, but I knew from the position----

By Mr. Reyburn:

Q. You mean from the position they occupied, they were company officers?

A. I suppose they were company officers. They were in the rear of the two ranks facing me.

Q. Had any stones and missiles been thrown at the soldiers before the command to charge bayonets was given?

A. I cannot say positively as to before the command to charge bayonets was given.

Q. Were any thrown at the troops before the command to fire was given? Were there any shots fired by the crowd before the command to fire was given?

A. Not that I either saw or heard--not before the command to fire.

Q. Missiles had been thrown?

A. They had been thrown--I saw them thrown.

Q. Were any of the soldiers hurt?

A. Not that I saw. I saw one of the officers--I supposed to be a field officer--saw him hit, and it staggered him, but he didn't seem to be hurt--kind of shoved him to one side--it seemed to be a piece of a board or piece of wood--something like a block of wood--it was thrown from the hill side, and hit one of the officers. I saw that myself--not thrown from the hill side, but from what they call the watch-box--it is a watch-box. It was thrown from the back of that by a boy.

Q. You saw the boy?

A. It was a young fellow about sixteen or seventeen years of age, from what I could judge from his appearance.

Q. When the firing commenced, you ran?

A. I ran before the firing commenced. I was back of what they call the Hill house.

Q. Did you run before the command was given?

A. No, sir; I didn't. Whenever I heard the command given, I thought I had no business there, and I got out of the road, that is one thing that made me so positive the command was given. My idea of getting out of the road was on account of that command to fire.

Q. In what words--was there more than one command?

A. There was no more than one command. The word fire was given by different men in uniform. They were standing not in the rear, but in front of the line of militia that was right in front of me. I heard that from more than one voice.

Q. In what words was the command given?

A. The command I speak of as given by those parties, was the word "fire."

Q. Addressed to any particular person?

A. Not by those parties--just "fire."

Q. How do you know who gave that command?

A. I could hear them; I don't suppose I was six feet from some of them.

Q. Could you pick out the men who gave the command?

A. That gave the word fire?

Q. Yes?

A. No, sir; I couldn't.

Q. Then you don't know who it was that gave the command?

A. That gave these commands? No, sir.

Q. You say it came from officers in command of a company?

A. It came from what I supposed by the position they held--they were strangers to me.

By Mr. Reyburn:

Q. Couldn't you distinguish the officers from the private?

A. I thought I could. It was what I consider officers. I didn't pay that much attention. I had no idea there was going to be such a command given, and paid no attention to officers nor privates. These parties had no guns. Whether they were captains or lieutenants, or what, I couldn't say.

Q. You wouldn't pretend to say what man it was gave the command, or pick out the man?

A. That gave this command I speak of? No, sir.

Q. You could only tell the direction in which the words came?

A. If they had been Pittsburgh troops had been there, I suppose I could have told every man of them. I could not point out the men if they were brought before me now.

Q. Could you see the man who uttered the words?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. So as to pick him out?

A. I could, provided I had seen enough of the man. I couldn't remember him now. I believe if I could see the man that I first heard these words "fire" from; if I would have seen him the next morning, I could point him out. I don't remember of having seen him since, and I don't know that I could point him out if he was here.

Q. How was he dressed?

A. Dressed in a gray uniform? He was in full uniform, with gold lace on it.

Q. What rank did his uniform indicate?

A. I didn't pay that much attention to him to find out what his rank was. The militia uniform is so badly mixed, I could hardly tell what the man's rank would be. The uniform seemed to be about the same in all the officers. I didn't pay any attention to these troops as regards that.

By Mr. Reyburn:

Q. Had he a plume, the same as the privates?

A. I couldn't say.

Q. Didn't notice?

A. No, sir.

By Senator Yutzy:

Q. How many officers did you hear give this command to fire?

A. I couldn't say exactly. I suppose seven or eight.

Q. All gave the command to fire?

A. Yes, sir; that is, I heard it in that many different voices; I couldn't say how many officers, but in that many different voices.

Q. Not at one and the same time?

A. Not at one and the same time.

Q. Did any other words precede the word "fire?"

A. Not by the officers I speak of.

Q. Nothing but simply "fire?"

A. Simply "fire."

By Senator Reyburn:

Q. You are sure they didn't say not to fire, and you only heard the word "fire?"

A. I am sure of the parties I speak of.

Q. That they were not cautioning their men not to fire on the crowd?

A. No, sir; I am sure of that.

Q. Couldn't you have made a mistake, and only heard the last word?

A. Not from the position I was. The parties may have been mistaken in regard to where they got their order.

Q. When they were ordered to charge bayonets, what was the command given to charge bayonets?

A. As I spoke before, the command was given, that I could hear the command but couldn't hear what was said to the troops. It was given to two companies in a low tone of voice, but what I understood to be "charge bayonets," and a charge bayonets was immediately made after this order. It was in a low tone of voice.

Q. Not as a military officer ought to give a command?

A. Not as I would suppose a military officer should give a command. I am not posted in regard to how they should give it.

Q. He didn't say it as though he meant business?

A. It looked very much like it.

Q. He gave it in a low tone of voice?

A. Just gave it in a low tone of voice to those two companies--it was a command to those two companies.

Q. When he gave the command fire, did he speak it distinctly as though he meant exactly what he said?

A. Who are you speaking of?

Q. The officers that gave the command?

A. Yes; they spoke it distinctly.

Q. As though they meant exactly what they said?

A. I supposed from that they meant it, that is the reason I got out of the road. I thought they meant what they said.

By Senator Yutzy:

Q. What position did those officers occupy when this command to fire was given. The officers I speak of giving the word "fire?"

A. They were in front of the command.

Q. In front of the rank?

A. In front of the rank. There was no room for them in place else.

Q. You are sure they were in front of the rank?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Seven or eight of them, you say?

A. If you will allow me to explain about the officers. Six, seven, or eight. There was two ranks of troops, stretching from the switch at Twenty-eighth street down the track in two ranks, and those two companies were at the upper end. What I supposed to be the general officers were in the rear of those two officers, and the other officers were scattered down along. There was two lines. There was seven or eight not scattered along, because they were over near to what I considered to be the generals.

Q. They were in front of the rank?

A. The line was facing this way. [Illustrating.] There was no officers outside of this rank [indicating] that I could see, and there was no room in this rank, because here is a truck--a coal truck. I stood from where I could stoop down and touch the soldiers.

Q. Wouldn't you suppose this was a pretty bad place for an officer to stand?

A. I should think it was.

By Senator Yutzy:

Q. These officers stood between the mob and their men?

A. No, sir.

Q. They were behind the men?

A. What I consider the mob was at the switch at Twenty-eighth street. That was the switch here. [Illustrating.] The Philadelphia troops were formed in two ranks. There was the two companies coming up here, [indicating,] one in single file, and when they got to the switch the men stopped them. They were in single line. This company was brought up between the two lines, forcing every person out, keeping that part of the track clear. They succeeded until they got to this switch. When they got to the switch one company was not successful in driving them back.

By Senator Reyburn:

Q. You said the officers were in front of the men, did you mean those men that were standing in line? The officers were in front of them, was the ones you speak of?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. It was these officers gave the command to fire?

A. These officers I was speaking of.

Q. It was not the men that were marching up to clear the crowd--I mean marching towards the crowd?

A. It was not those officers I heard.

Q. It was the bystanders? Those officers had nothing to do with those companies?

A. No, sir; not with those two companies up the track--no, sir.

Q. Did the companies commanded by the officers who gave the command, fire?

A. I didn't wait to see.

Q. You don't know that they did fire?

A. Not from my own knowledge, but from the parties wounded and killed, I would suppose so.

By Mr. Larrabee:

Q. How long after the command was given did you hear the firing?

A. I got back of this house before I heard any firing.

Q. What distance was you from the crowd, where you stood, when the command was given, when the firing began?

A. I suppose I would be a distance about forty yards, before I heard any firing.

Q. After the command to fire was given, you retreated to the oil-house?

A. I got the oil-house between me and the Philadelphia troops.

Q. How far was that from where you stood when the command was given?

A. I think it was forty yards from where I stood on the track.

Q. How long after you got to the oil-house, did you hear the firing?

A. I could hardly tell--it was a very short time. I don't think you could count a minute.

Q. You think you were not behind the oil-house one minute before the firing began?

A. Until I heard the firing.

Q. You started as soon as ever you heard the command to fire?

A. Just as soon as I could get off the track. As soon as I heard the command "fire," I commenced my way back in this crowd on the track, just as quick as I could get off and run.

Q. About how long did it take you to get through that crowd and behind the oil-house?

A. Didn't take me very long. I was not very long getting there, I know that.

Q. A minute?

A. I do not think I was a minute getting off the track. I was over a minute getting behind the oil-house.

Q. You were there not over a minute before you heard the firing?

A. I am sure of that.

Q. Do you think it was two minutes after the order to fire was given, before the firing began?

A. I think so; yes, sir.

By Mr. Reyburn:

Q. Where did these stones and missiles come from?

A. The things I saw thrown were right from back of what we call a switch-tender's shanty. There is a little shanty we call the switch-tender's shanty. It was parties standing back of that--I could see it from where I was standing--most of them that were thrown.

Q. How much of a shower of stones was it?

A. There was no shower. There was not even a slight storm. It was not what I would call a shower of stones.

Q. Only two or three stones thrown?

A. There might have been--I guess I saw six or seven. There were lumps of mud and pieces of wood. I do not think I saw a stone. I did see mud--that is, hard mud seemed to be taken from the side of the hill.

Q. Did you see one of those soldiers fall, in the ranks that marched down there?