Chapter C: A. Fife, sworn with uplifted hand (1)

By Mr. Lindsey:

Q. You are the son of Sheriff Fife?

A. Yes.

Q. Were you in the sheriff's office on Thursday, the 19th of July?

A. Yes.

Q. Was there any call upon the sheriff during that day for assistance in putting down the disturbance at Twenty-eighth street?

A. Not during that day, I do not think.

Q. During the evening?

A. I believe so, but I was not home.

Q. You were not out with him?

A. No.

Q. Were you out with him on Friday?

A. I was at Union depot on Friday.

Q. Was there any disturbance there?

A. No, sir.

Q. Were you out on Saturday?

A. Yes.

Q. At what time?

A. I was there when the militia went out, in the afternoon.

Q. Were you a member of the sheriff's posse?

A. Yes.

Q. Tell us what occurred there?

A. We walked into the crowd. The crowd would open for us to walk in, and then close around us.

Q. At what point was that?

A. Twenty-eighth street.

Q. The militia were immediately in your rear.

A. Yes.

Q. What did the sheriff say to the crowd?

A. He asked them to disperse.

Q. What response did they make?

A. I cannot say that. They hooted, and hallooed, and used vile language, and threw stones.

By Senator Reyburn:

Q. They did not disperse?

A. No.

By Mr. Lindsey:

Q. Who were the stones thrown at?

A. Both at the militia and us, but I cannot say exactly.

Q. Were any guns or pistols fired at you?

A. I heard pistol shots, but cannot say who they were fired at.

Q. Before the firing from the soldiers?

A. Yes.

Q. Was there any command given to fire?

A. Not that I heard.

Q. Where were you during Saturday night, after the shooting?

A. I was around through town here--no place in particular.

Q. Were you at your home?

A. Yes; then I was out on the hill above Twenty-eighth street.

Q. Was there anybody that offered violence to you?

A. No.

Q. Was any attempt made to burn the house of the sheriff?

A. I did not see anybody there, but I heard that there had been parties at the house.

Q. You saw nobody there?

A. I did not get home until near morning. I was out on the hill at Twenty-eighth street.

Q. Were any threats made that you heard?

A. I did not hear any, but I heard of them.

Q. Did you assist on Saturday in raising that posse?

A. I tried to get some parties.

Q. What efforts did you make?

A. I asked several parties to go out with us.

Q. What replies did you get?

A. I was refused wherever I asked anybody.

Q. What class of men did you call on?

A. I do not exactly remember now who I did ask--parties I would see around the court-house.

Q. You did not succeed in getting anybody?

A. No.

At this point the committee adjourned until to-morrow morning, at ten o'clock.

ORPHANS' COURT ROOM,
PITTSBURGH, _Tuesday, February 12, 1878_.

Pursuant to adjournment, the committee re-assembled at ten o'clock, A.M., this day, and continued the taking of testimony.

The first witness examined was:

* * * * *

Alexander E. McCandless, _sworn with the uplifted hand_:

By Mr. Lindsey:

Q. Where do you reside?

A. On Centre avenue, in this city.

Q. What is your profession?

A. I am a physician.

Q. State whether you were connected with the fire department last July?

A. I was a fire commissioner.

Q. What are the duties of the fire commissioners?

A. They are elected by city councils to take care of the fire department, and to elect the force, and to run it, and they have general supervision over the expenditure of the money.

Q. Do they control the movements of the fire department in case of a fire?

A. We have a chief engineer for that purpose.

Q. What was done by the fire department during the riot for the purpose of protecting the city or railroad companies' property from fire?

A. The first alarm of fire was struck about eleven o'clock on Saturday night, after the cars were set fire to. The fire department responded as soon as the alarm was struck, and started out to the fire, No. 7 engine, I believe, being the first on the way. At that time, I was on top of the hill overlooking the outer depot. I heard the alarm struck, and I heard the engine start, and then I heard the shouts of the mob, and could hear the gong of the engine as it was running. I then heard the engine stop, and could hear the oaths of the men all distinctly. Afterwards I went down into the crowd, and as the other engines came up, I saw them stopped by the mob there, who swore that if we did lay any hose, they would cut the hose, and shoot the drivers, and all that kind of a thing. The mob would not allow the fire department to put a drop of water on the company's property, and all that night we did not get to throw any. The following night when private property caught fire they allowed us to throw water on it, and did not interfere.

Q. Was private property protected pretty generally?

A. As well as it could be done, but it was so extensive that we could not protect it altogether; we had the force of the fire department cut down on account of the appropriations not being sufficient to run it a short time before that, and the result was that we were short of men.

Q. Was the private property fired by the mob, or did it catch from the railroad company's fire?

A. I cannot state that of my own knowledge.

Q. What seemed to be the disposition of the mob?

A. They were wild--perfectly mad, and appeared to want to burn everything or anything, especially the railroad property.

Q. This is Saturday night you speak of?

A. That evening--Saturday evening--we did not get to throw any water. But the chief engineer can give fuller details than I can about that.

Q. Did you call on the mayor for protection in any way for your fire department?

A. Not personally, but the chief of the department, I think, did.

Q. Was the fire department protected by the police?

A. No.

Q. During Saturday night or the day of Sunday?

A. Not that I know of. We were the only department that kept up any organization in this city at that time.

Q. You say you did keep up your organization?

A. Yes, perfectly, and we followed the line of the fire all the way down Liberty street clear to Union depot.

Q. During the entire riot you preserved your organization?

A. Yes. I was attacked once near the grain elevator. I was directing a stream of water on the hotel opposite, and they thought I wanted to put water on the elevator, and they attacked me; but I got away, as I was on horseback.

Q. If your fire department had been protected by the police, could you have controlled the fire?

A. We could at the inception of it--when they started burning the cars. Only one car was lit at that time.

Q. The fire department, you say, is under the control of a chief engineer?

A. Yes; he has supreme control of the fire department, and in case of a large fire he is assisted by the commissioners.

Q. Is he subject to the order of the mayor?

A. No; he is not. He has nothing to do with the mayor.

Q. He is subject to the orders of the commissioners?

A. Yes; he is directed by them, but he has supreme control of the fire department. If he wants the assistance of the commissioners he sends an alarm for them.

Q. In case the fire department needs protection, to whom ought you to look for that protection?

A. I suppose to the head of the police department of the city.

Q. Do you know, of your own knowledge, whether any demand was made upon the chief of police for protection?

A. Not of my own knowledge.

Q. Is the fire department a paid department?

A. Yes.

Q. Did you see the fire when it first started?

A. I saw the first of it--the first torch applied to the first car.

Q. Where was that car standing?

A. Beyond the round-house. And I thought they had an engine up there. They would fire one car and start it, and fire another car and start it, and fire another car and start it.

Q. Can you give us the street where it was?

A. I think they were all above Twenty-eighth street--the cars that were started.

Q. You thought they had an engine to start the cars?

A. I thought so--either that or a large gang of men. They started so rapidly.

Q. When those cars came down, where did they stop after they were started?

A. They came down--the whole yard was packed with cars down below the round-house, and they had the switches so arranged that they ran down to the round-house. They were trying to burn out the soldiers. It was very plain what their motive was.

Q. The motive, at first, was not to destroy the railroad company's property, but to burn out the soldiers?

A. That was the motive, to my mind, as I viewed it from the hill.

Q. What were those first cars loaded with?

A. I cannot tell that.

Q. With oil?

A. No; they were freight cars first that were fired. Afterwards they started the oil cars down.

By Mr. Lindsey:

Q. As the fire progressed on Sunday morning, what seemed to be the motive?

A. It was general destruction then. They started the oil cars early Sunday morning.

Q. What time did the troops get out of the round-house?

A. I did not see them come out. I only know from newspaper reports.

Q. Did you see the mob as it approached the depot with torches, and the burning of Union depot?

A. No; I was at work on another part of the fire.

Q. How large was the mob during Sunday?

A. It would be hard to form an estimate. It was an immense crowd, for squares on Liberty street, breaking cars open and stealing--ten thousand or fifteen thousand anyway--just streaming back over the hill, taking the things away. Thousands of them were carrying away everything imaginable, and going to the south side with them. They passed my house--crowds of them.

Q. Who were ahead--the men with the torches or the plundering posse?

A. The torches were first.

By Senator Yutzy:

Q. In what manner did the mob interfere with your men?

A. They would not let them get to the fire.

Q. They stopped your men?

A. Yes; they just got ahead in front of the horses and caught the horses by the head, and swore they would shoot the drivers if they would go any further.

Q. But they did not assault your men?

A. They interfered in every way they could. One of our men caught a man going along with a sword-cane punching holes in the hose, and he knocked him down, and took it away from him. They have that cane now.

Q. Did you not have one of your fire engines in position to play on the fire when the police offered to protect you from the mob, but your men did not then play on the fire?

A. The chief engineer can tell you that. I was not present when that occurred.

* * * * *

Samuel M. Evans, _sworn with the uplifted hand_:

By Mr. Lindsey:

Q. Where do you reside?

A. At 190 Fourth avenue.

Q. What was your official connection with the fire department in July last?

A. I was the chief engineer.

Q. How long have you occupied that position?

A. Since last May. I was the assistant chief for two years, and the engineer of a company before that, and the foreman of a company before that. I then resigned for sometime, and was then elected engineer afterwards, and was then elected assistant chief engineer, and then elected chief.

Q. State when the first alarm of fire was given?

A. On Saturday night, about eleven o'clock.

Q. From whence did the fire proceed--what part of the city?

A. The corner of Twenty-sixth and Penn streets--it was there the box struck.

Q. What did you do?

A. When the alarm came I was in bed. They fetched my wagon to me, and I went out there, and when I got to Eleventh street--driving there--they got in my way--certain parties--and called out: "You son of a bitch, don't lay any hose--you son of a bitch." But I said to them, "you can go to hell;" and I started on. It was on the street, and I went at a pretty rapid gait. When I got out as far as the "Independent" house, Mr. Coates, one of the fire commissioners, said to me: "Sam, drive in here, quick." I drove then into the engine house, and then went to Twenty-eighth and Liberty streets where the mob was. I looked up and saw the fire. It was a car--it appeared to be an oil tank car. At first, No. 7 was between Twenty-second and Twenty-third streets on the right side of Penn, in the gutter. They had no fire in the engine, and I said: "Where's your fire?" And they told me they had put a pistol to the head of the fireman, and made him draw the fire. I told the engineer then to turn her around and take her down to the house and to fire up again. They went to the house, and I told them to stand there so as to be ready to go into service if we could get into service. Then they came up with a big gun on wheels--a cannon--pulling it along on the street. After they got up to where a few hose carriages were, they came to Twenty-third street--and I said, "what is the matter?" And all they said was to point the gun at us and said: "If you don't get out of that we'll blow you to hell." I said we had better come down here than go there. While I was standing there, an alarm came from East Liberty. I went out there, and when I went out there I thought probably it was the stock-yards, but I found it was a solitary house away down on Negley's run, a mile or a mile and a half from the railroad. Then I told the engine company at East Liberty to stay there in case they would burn Mr. Pitcairn's house, or set the stock-yards on fire, and that we would manage to get along without them. So they did not come in. Then I came in, and I think at eight minutes after three it was, when they sent a signal in that the fire was out. There was a big crowd on Liberty street, and somebody asked me to let them lay a line of hose to save Mr. Hardie's stable, and some property belonging to Mr. Denny. I told the foreman then of hose company No. 1, to lay a line of hose up Liberty street from Thirty-first street, and that if any stables got on fire, or any private property, to throw water on it. Then four men stopped me with guns, and asked me what I was going to do, and I said I was going to lay a line of hose; and they said, not a God damned line of hose. But I said to them that I was going to save private property, and then they said, that I could throw water on that, "but that if you throw any water on the company's fire we will shoot you and cut your hose," and everything else. While coming in they were carrying goods away from the cars. Everybody you would see, had a bundle on their shoulders or their heads.

By Senator Yutzy:

Q. What time of night was this?

A. Between three and four o'clock in the morning. I came down to Twenty-third street, but we could not go into service at all. They were shooting at that time out of the machine shop and the round-house.

Q. Who were shooting?

A. The soldiers, and the others were shooting out of the board pile.

Q. Firing at the round-house?

A. Yes; they took this gun and planted it in the street to shoot into the round-house, and these men in the round-house, when they would go to sight this gun, would shoot them. They had this gun loaded with links and pins belonging to the railroad company. After the fire started, I think it could have been stopped before it set the round-house on fire. I think at that time it could have been stopped, because in the morning, about six or seven o'clock, they commenced running down the wall--a crowd of them--and then pushed the cars up along the Allegheny Valley track, and when they would come to a car afire--one man I noticed particularly jump up on a car, and stop it alongside of another car afire. Then when it would catch fire they would open the brakes, and let it go down to the round-house. Then they threw something out of the round-house, and stopped the cars there, and then they got to throwing water out of the round-house on the cars. I was down on the corner of Twenty-third street when two rough looking customers came down, and asked me where the place to stop the water off was. They said they are throwing water out of the round-house. I told them to go to the head of Twenty-sixth street on Liberty, and that they would see a big iron plate in the middle of the street, and that they should lift that up, and put their hands down and stop it off. They said they will pick us off, and they wanted to know if there was no place in Penn street to stop the water off. I said no.

By Senator Yutzy:

Q. You knew they could not stop it off?

A. Yes; I knew they were rioters, and if they went where I told them they would shoot them, perhaps.

Q. You did not give the information for the purpose of getting the water stopped off.

A. No; I knew that they could not stop it off.

By Senator Reyburn:

Q. Were these two men strangers?

A. Yes.

Q. You are very well acquainted about Pittsburgh?

A. Yes.

Q. Did this crowd--all of them--seem to be citizens?

A. Some of them did, and some did not.

Q. What were the citizens doing?

A. Standing there--a great many of them--but they were afraid to speak or to do anything for fear of getting hurt--those that felt like stopping it. A good many were arrested. I saw the "black maria" very busy taking men down to the station-house, and I asked the policemen how many were arrested, and they said one hundred and thirty or one hundred and forty, for stealing, and in the morning I asked a man what they did with them, and he said that the mayor had fined them three dollars and costs, and let them go. I said they were all thieves, and he said that nobody was there to identify the property. I said it was not necessary to identify stolen property.

Q. Did he get the three dollars out of them?

A. That is what the policeman said--three dollars and costs.

Q. He did not let them go until he got that?

A. That is what he told me.

By Senator Yutzy:

Q. What time was the round-house set on fire?

A. About seven o'clock in the morning.

Q. How was it fired?

A. From cars on the Allegheny Valley railroad.

Q. Is that on Liberty street?

A. Yes; the track is on top of the wall until you come to a little piece on this side of Twenty-sixth street, and then it comes down and gets level with the payment--between Twenty-fifth and Twenty-sixth streets it begins to get on a level with the payment. These cars were stopped between Twenty-sixth and Twenty-seventh streets. One fireman told me--a fireman of Engine Company 8, in Philadelphia--that he got the water ready to throw, or was handling the line, when he said there was a car loaded with liquor in it burning, and it ran down into the cellar of the round-house, or the shop on the other side, and that that was what drove them out so that they could not do anything. When that liquor, burning, ran down into the cellar, it set the buildings on fire.

Q. Did any of your engines play on the fire on the railroad?

A. No; they would not let us. And we had as much as we could do after the fire started. As fast as the fire would come along we would move the engines down.

Q. How many engines had you?

A. Eleven of my own, and the chief engineer of Allegheny came over and fetched me three.

Q. They would not allow you to play on the railroad property.

A. No.

Q. Did you ask protection from the mayor?

A. I do not know that I saw him but once. He and Roger O'Mara came up Penn street in a buggy, and turned out Liberty, and then O'Mara came back some way without the mayor.

Q. Did you ask for protection?

A. No; I did not see anybody to ask.

Q. Do you know of any protection given to you by the police?

A. No protection at all, sir. If I could have got protection when I first went out to the fire, we could have kept the other cars from burning. We could have pulled them away sufficiently far to stop the oil tanks from setting any of the rest afire, and kept them cooled off.

Q. Do you think that the police force of the city could have protected you so that you could have played on the fire?

A. If they had not been demoralized, they could. If they had had a police like the New York police, they could have kept the crowd back.

Q. How many men would it have taken to protect you sufficiently?

A. After the fire got started, it would have taken right smart, but before that I think that one hundred and fifty or two hundred men could have stopped the whole thing, because police can do more than soldiers.

Q. We have testimony that the police offered to give protection to one engine?

A. Let the police come up and name the engine. I saw that in the papers.

Q. Do you know the parties referred to?

A. Motts and Goldsmith. They came out in the papers and said they went to one man named Kennedy, and told them that they would give protection, but I went and asked them, and they said that they never came to them at all.

Q. These gentlemen will testify to that?

A. Yes; I can have them at any time at all. I will fetch them to you. None of them came to me; and I am the proper person to come to for a purpose of that kind.

By Senator Reyburn.

Q. Were you about on Thursday or Friday?

A. No.

Q. You say that a couple of hundred or one hundred and fifty policemen could have driven the crowd back?

A. On Saturday, one hundred and fifty policemen, well armed, and staying together, could have moved the crowd away so that they could have moved the trains.

Q. But you were not there?

A. Not until Saturday night, when the alarm was given.

Q. On Saturday and Sunday morning, when you were there, were the police doing anything to prevent the pillaging?

A. After I came back from East Liberty, I saw the police arresting people for stealing. The "black maria" was busy taking them down to the station--the Twelfth ward station--and then running them down to the Central station.

Q. From what you saw, do you think it would have been possible for the police to have stopped it?

A. It would have been impossible for what was there to have stopped the mob. They could catch the people when carrying things off.

By Senator Yutzy:

Q. Were you a witness before the grand jury?

A. No; this is the first time I have been called upon.

By Mr. Englebert:

Q. Did you see any of the soldiers?

A. Yes; about the round-house. As soon as the soldiers went out of the round-house we went into service, and kept right on then. We could not go into service before, because they were firing both from the round-house and from the board-pile--the rioters.

By Senator Yutzy:

Q. When the soldiers came out of the round-house, did they come out in ranks?

A. Yes. As soon as they came down on to Penn street, I noticed a squad on each side watching the houses and buildings and alleys, and the men with the Gatling gun were watching behind.

By Senator Reyburn:

Q. Were they well handled and marching orderly, or were they demoralized?

A. No. They marched out orderly. You could not have told from the way they looked that anything was the matter. I expected to see them come out and run every way, and I was astonished. When they began coming out everybody ran from them, but when they saw them come out in good order, and keep in a good line, then they began to stand still again--the people did.

* * * * *

Samuel A. Muckle, _sworn with the uplifted hand_:

By Mr. Lindsey:

Q. Where do you reside?

A. In the Twenty-third ward, Pittsburgh, at the present time.

Q. Where were you residing in July last?

A. In the Fourth ward, Allegheny city.

Q. What business were you engaged in all that time?

A. No business at all at that time. I was employed by the railroad before that.

Q. What position did you hold on the railroad before that?

A. Conductor.

Q. Of what road?

A. The Pan Handle.

Q. Passenger or freight?

A. Freight, at that time.

Q. Was there any pre-arranged plan among the railroad men for a strike?

A. None that I know of--if you speak of the strike that occurred in July.

Q. Yes?

A. None that I know of.

Q. Was there any arrangement being made among the men for a strike to take place then or any other time?

A. We had an organization here at that time, called the Trainmen's Union. Of course, if I have to answer all these questions, I am willing to answer them, if they do not conflict with this organization. Of course, I went into that organization, and I am under an obligation.

By Senator Yutzy:

Q. Oath bound?

A. Yes.

By Mr. Lindsey:

Q. It is a secret organization?

A. So far as our own business is concerned.

Q. As far as you can, you will give us what information you have upon the causes of this riot, and whether it was pre-arranged among the men?

A. The organization is not in existence to-day, but I still feel myself duty bound to the organization. I will answer this. There was a union called the Trainmen's Union--an organization--and there was a talk of a strike in June. It was to have taken place on the 27th day of June. That fell through, and with the strike in July, we had no business of that kind.

Q. What induced the men to arrange for a strike on the 27th of June?

A. This organization was gotten up for the benefit of the railroad men--for their own protection--for to protect them in anything that might be brought up.

Q. What class of railroad men?

A. The transportation department entirely.

Q. Including conductors and brakemen?

A. Yes; and engineers and firemen.

Q. Did it include any passenger conductors and brakemen?

A. Yes.

Q. The whole?

A. Yes; when I speak of transportation, I include the whole transportation department.

Q. Was it the ten per cent. reduction made on the 1st of June that induced the men to arrange for that strike?

A. I do not know that it was positively that, more than some other grievances that might be brought up. It was organized more for the protection of ourselves in any grievances that might be brought up. Of course, the ten per cent. would be included.

Q. Were there any other grievances except that ten per cent. reduction?

A. Not at that time.

Q. Had the men any grievances or complaints to make outside of that, when it was talked of that a strike should take place on the 27th of June?

A. I believe there were.

Q. What were they?

A. In regard to the classification of engineers and the amount of pay they received, &c.; that was something I did not particularly understand at that time.

By Senator Yutzy:

Q. The object of the brotherhood was to abolish this classification?

A. The object was to protect themselves.

By Senator Reyburn:

Q. They considered this grading unjust?

A. Yes; they considered it unjust, which it certainly was.

By Mr. Lindsey:

Q. You did not organize a strike for the 27th of June in regard to any future grievance.

A. No.

Q. It was the ten per cent. reduction and the classification of engines that induced you to arrange that strike for the 27th of June?

A. Yes.

Q. In arranging for a strike, what did the railroad men propose to do--stop all trains--just simply quit work?

A. In case of their striking, they simply proposed quitting work themselves--standing still or going to their homes, or wherever they wished to go. I never heard of any arrangement made as to what they would do.

By Mr. Means:

Q. Were any resolutions passed in your body to stop trains?

A. No.

By Mr. Lindsey:

Q. Were there any resolutions to interfere with the men who desired to work?

A. No.

Q. You said it fell through. What broke off that arrangement to strike on the 27th of June?

A. It was because it was generally thought it was not solid enough; it was not worked in the right way.

Q. How extensive was the arrangement--how wide did it extend?

A. I did not think it was very extensive; at least, I did not think it was very solid.

Q. Do you know how many organizations this Trainmen's Union had in existence--how many lodges?

A. I am not prepared to say; I do not know.

Q. Did it include all the trunk lines?

A. I think it did.

Q. Did it include all the employés of the Pennsylvania Railroad Company?

A. It included all those who joined the order.

Q. What other roads?

A. Most all the roads out of Pittsburgh; in fact, I guess all the other main roads.

Q. Where did that union originate?

A. I believe in Pittsburgh.

Q. When was it abandoned?

A. Previous to the strike.

By Senator Reyburn:

Q. Then there was no organization at the time of the strike.

A. No; we had no meeting for some time previous to the strike.

By Mr. Lindsey:

Q. For how long previous?

A. Not within a week, and that was very small. The meeting called last was called without the approval of the right party in this union. His attention was called to a poster struck up on a telegraph pole by a certain party, and I rather think it was put up just as a burlesque in the first place. There had not been a regular meeting for some time previous to the strike.

Q. Can you tell what induced them to abandon the union?

A. I have my own idea, but I don't know whether I am right. My impression always was that the railroad men, in connection with the Trainmen's Union, were afraid to attempt it for fear of being discharged from the road. I claim it was lack of nerve on the part of the men. I was discharged myself after the first trainmen's meeting I ever attended, and I am satisfied I would still be a union man if there had been any men with me.

Q. When did you first learn of the strike on Thursday, July 19?

A. In the neighborhood of eleven o'clock, in the forenoon.

Q. Had you any intimation of it before that?

A. Not in the least. In fact I was surprised, and I didn't believe such a thing was going on until I walked to Twenty-eighth street, and saw it to be a fact.

Q. When you got there who did you find there?

A. A few railroad men, and I believe a few policemen were there, and some citizens.

Q. How many railroad men were there?

A. I cannot tell you that--I suppose twenty or thirty or forty or fifty. A great many of those men I didn't know.

Q. What road were those men working on at that time?

A. I think the majority of them belonged to the Pennsylvania railroad.

Q. What were they doing?

A. They didn't appear to be doing anything. They just appeared to be standing around talking.

Q. Was there any effort made to move any trains while you were there?

A. Not at that time.

Q. Were any made in your presence?

A. Not just in my presence. I believe they undertook--that is only hearsay--but I could see from Twenty-eighth street down towards where they started the trains west of Twenty-eighth street, and I think on Friday I saw a few engines apparently coupled to trains. Whether they intended to go out is more than I can tell of my own knowledge. I know they didn't go out.

Q. Did you see anybody try to start a train on Thursday?

A. No, sir; I didn't see anybody try to start a train during the trouble.

Q. Were you there during Thursday night?

A. I was not there during any night.

Q. What was the object of the men assembling at that point?

A. From the understanding I had from the men, after talking with a few of the men, it was that they had struck against the double-headers.

Q. Were those men members of the Trainmen's union?

A. Some of them.

Q. Why were they assembled in force on the track?

A. That is more than I can tell what their motive was.

By Senator Reyburn:

Q. What did they say about it?

A. Nothing particularly--nothing more than that they had struck.

By Mr. Lindsey:

Q. Did you talk with them?

A. I talked with some few of the men I knew.

Q. Did you admonish them that it was wrong to be assembled in such large numbers there?

A. No.

Q. Was anything said about that?

A. Not that I know of. I was not in a very good humor just as I got up there. I had been insulted just before I reached Twenty-eighth street.

Q. By whom?

A. By Mr. Watt. When I reached there there were only a few of those parties that I knew.

Q. The Trainmen's Union, at that time, was not in existence?

A. They had not had a meeting for some time previous.

Q. Did they have any meetings after that?

A. Not that I know of.

By Senator Yutzy:

Q. Was the organization formally disbanded?

A. It just died out. They had no meetings called of the order.

By Mr. Larrabee:

Q. When did this union start, to your knowledge?

A. It was about the latter part of May, I think, or the 1st of June.

By Mr. Lindsey:

Q. As a member of the organization, what action would your organization have taken in reference to that unlawful assemblage there?

A. My idea is that they would have discountenanced anything of the kind--any burning, or pillaging, or anything of that kind.

Q. Or any interference with trains?

A. That is more than I can tell. I cannot tell anything about what men will do after getting started.

Q. Would your organization have any means of disciplining the members of it who interfered with the movements of the trains?

A. Most certainly. Our order had a head.

By Mr. Means:

Q. You mean to say, in your organization, according to the rules and regulations of it, if they struck, they passed resolutions that no trains should go out?

A. I didn't say anything of the kind.

Q. Was it the intention of the men to interfere with the movement of the trains?

A. Not to the best of my knowledge. I never heard any such resolution, and I never heard any person speak of it that way.

Q. Do you know any of the men that did interfere with the movement of the trains who belonged to the union?

[Witness did not answer.]

By Mr. Lindsey:

Q. In that arrangement to strike on the 27th of June--how extensive was that strike to be--how far was it to extend--what roads was it to include?

A. It included the roads running out of Pittsburgh, so far as I know.

By Mr. Engelbert:

Q. What roads are they?

A. The Pennsylvania railroad, the Pan-Handle, the Fort Wayne and Chicago, the Allegheny Valley, and the Cleveland and Pittsburgh.

Q. Was the Baltimore and Ohio not included?

A. I cannot say particularly.

By Mr. Lindsey:

Q. Was your organization notified of this strike that took place on Thursday, the 19th?

A. No, sir; no more than what I told you, that I was met on the corner of Eleventh street, near the Rush house, and told of it, in the neighborhood of eleven o'clock.

By Mr. Engelbert:

Q. You said you were discharged on account of being a union man?

A. I am positive of it--at least the message I received bore nearly about the same words, but not just in that way.

Q. That, of course, was a grievance?

A. Yes.

By Mr. Lindsey:

Q. Did your Trainmen's Union include the employés of the Baltimore and Ohio road?

A. Yes.

Q. Was that strike in pursuance of an arrangement made in your union?

A. Not to my knowledge.

Q. Was that formally communicated to your union here--the strike that occurred there?

A. No; nothing more than hearsay on the street.

Q. Did the members of your union make any effort to have those parties disperse and go to their homes during Friday, Saturday, and Sunday?

A. Not that I know of--no more than I did myself.

Q. What did you do in relation to it?

A. I did take some men out of the crowd at Twenty-eighth street, men that belonged to the Pan-Handle road. At Twenty-eighth street, that day, I was met by this Watt. He says to me, I want you to leave this property. Watt was the man; but I didn't know him only by sight. I thought, of course, he was an employé of the company. He said, I want you to leave the company's ground, and I asked him who he was. He replied that it didn't make any difference who he was, that he knew who I was, and my motive for being there. I said if he knew my motive he knew my business better than I did, for I hardly knew myself what I was there for. And after trying to give me a bluff, as I call it, that he was Mr. Watt, and employed by the road, I went up towards Twenty-eighth street, and there understood that they were going to send for what they called the Pan Handle roughs to head this trouble. I knew the great majority of those men--between eighty and a hundred of them were discharged off the Pan Handle road, and had been discharged prior to this strike. The majority of them were in town; some had left town; but a great many of them were here, and they were pretty lucky if they could get one meal a day. I didn't want to see any of them get into further trouble, and when I heard this I was afraid that some of those men would enter into this thing through persuasion. I went to them singly, and took some half a dozen out of the crowd, one at a time, and told them not to have anything to do with the affair. I said, I have been discharged from the Pan Handle, and you, and there will be nothing in this of any benefit at all. I took out six or eight men from different parties that had belonged to the Pan Handle railroad.

By Senator Reyburn:

Q. What did they mean by sending for the Pan Handle roughs?

A. They thought that a few men of that road were rougher than anybody else, or had more pluck. I don't know--it was a rumor I heard.

By Mr. Means:

Q. Those men you spoke to went with you willingly out of the crowd?

A. Yes.

By Senator Reyburn:

Q. Were you on the ground of the Pennsylvania railroad, or on public ground?

A. It was on their ground. I was walking right up the track. After this man was going to bounce me, I walked up to Twenty-eighth street, and I told him I thought I would have the privilege of standing there on the street.

By Senator Yutzy:

Q. What do you mean by bouncing you?

A. Why, if I had weakened a little, I suppose he would have thrown me off.

By Mr. Lindsey:

Q. Were you there during the day, Sunday?

A. I was not. I was not on the ground at all after Saturday evening--after one of our engineers was wounded very badly. I helped to carry him up Liberty street on a shutter. I was not on the ground afterwards.

Q. Did you see any considerable number of the Pan-Handle men or employés in the crowd?

A. Not a great many.

Q. Who seemed to be the leaders of the crowd?

A. That is more than I can tell you.

Q. What business are you engaged in now?

A. Not any.

Q. Do you reside in the city?

A. Yes.

Q. You are still out of employment?

A. Yes; and likely to remain out so long as some of these men hold their positions on the roads.

By Mr. Larrabee:

Q. What position did you hold in this organization?

A. I was the president.

Q. You know nothing of this organization being in existence at that time on any roads except those that ran out of Pittsburgh?

A. At which time?

Q. At the time the strike was contemplated, in June?

A. They might have been contemplating such a thing, but the organization at that time, in June, was not so extensive as it got to be afterwards.

Q. Then it did increase afterwards and extend?

A. Yes.

Q. Do you know whether it did exist on other roads in June?

A. I don't know.

Q. You think it started here and spread?

A. Yes.

By Senator Yutzy:

Q. You say it started here?

A. Yes; I believe so. It was first organized here.

By Mr. Larrabee:

Q. Were you here at its birth?

A. Yes; and I have no objection either as to being at the first meeting.

By Senator Reyburn:

Q. Was it beneficial?

A. It had not got that far along, but it would have been, probably.

By Senator Yutzy:

Q. Was it the object of this organization to control the railroad companies, as to wages and running regulations?

A. The object, no doubt, of the organization was to protect themselves, no matter what grievances might be brought up, if based on good authority. The union would attend to them in its own way, whatever it might be.

Q. In what way did they propose to protect themselves?

A. That would have to be brought up before the order before they could tell that.

By Mr. Larrabee:

Q. Then there was no definite plan by which the railroad companies were to be controlled or coerced into coming to terms with the union?

A. No.

Q. That was left to be determined as circumstances might arise?

A. That is it exactly.

By Mr. Means:

Q. You said, a while ago, that this last meeting you spoke of was not regularly called?

A. No.

Q. You would have been the proper person to call it?

A. Yes.

Q. It was not done at your instance?

A. If it had been called it would have been through me. I had nothing to do with this poster on the telegraph pole; but after being on the pole for a half day, I concluded, rather than dupe the men, to let them meet, but nothing was done.

By Mr. Larrabee:

Q. Do you know how many members of this organization there were in Pittsburgh at the time of the contemplated strike in June?

A. I don't know.

Q. Do you know how many divisions there were in this city?

A. No.

Q. Have you any idea?

A. In Pittsburgh?

Q. Yes?

A. Three or four in Pittsburgh--three, I think.

Q. How many members belonged to the division you were connected with?

A. That is a question I cannot answer--I cannot tell.

Q. Can you give an approximate estimate of the number in Pittsburgh, at that time?

A. Four or five hundred.

Q. Was there not an understanding in the union, that whenever there were differences between the train men and the railroad companies, that the railroad companies were to be brought to terms by the members of the union, by striking on some particular day, without any notice to the companies, so that all traffic would be stopped?

A. I don't know of anything of that kind.

Q. Was there not some such talk, that that would be the most effectual way of bringing the companies to terms?

A. There was a great deal of wild talk among the men.

Q. There was no such proposal made in the union?

A. No.

Q. And no definite plan was adopted by the union to act upon the railroad companies in any way?

A. No.

By Mr. Engelbert:

Q. When any men wanted to become members of the organization, did they have to pay any initiation fees or dues?

A. They would have had to in course of time, but, up to that time, it was more a charitable institution than anything else. Anybody that had five cents or a quarter, and wanted to give it, could give it.

Q. There was no specific sum at that time?

A. No.

Q. Nor since?

A. The union is not in existence.

By Senator Yutzy:

Q. What do you mean by a strike--a railroad strike--what is the usual custom--what do you mean by it?

A. What I have always understood by a strike, is the men quitting work.

Q. You understand that they are all to quit?

A. Most undoubtedly.

Q. For the purpose of stopping traffic--the running of trains?

A. If that would stop it--most undoubtedly.

Q. Is it customary, in railroad strikes, for the men who quit work, to stop others from working, by violence or otherwise?

A. I have never seen it--by violence.

Q. Only by persuasion?

A. Only by persuasion. I have heard about a great many men being stopped, but, if our railroad men would get up and testify--I have heard railroad men claim that they wanted to work, but there was not one of them, that was not in the mire just as deep, while the thing was going on.

By Senator Reyburn:

Q. You mean the trainmen?

A. Certainly.

By Senator Yutzy:

Q. What class of men did you take into your organization?

A. Men belonging to the transportation department.

Q. No outsiders--no mill men?

A. I believe not.

Q. Had you a constitution and by-laws?

A. Yes.

Q. Have you got them in your possession?

A. I have not.

Q. Who has?

A. That is more than I can say.

Q. You don't know.

A. No.

Q. Have you a copy of them?

A. I have not.

By Mr. Larrabee:

Q. Can you give us the names of any men that would be willing to appear before our committee, and give information about the strike or their grievances?

A. Yes; an engineer by the name of John Hassler, residing on Wood street, the second or third door to the left of Bidwell. I think he would be an important witness; also, an engineer by the name of William Robb. He lives in the lower part of Allegheny somewhere, but I cannot tell his residence exactly.

By Mr. Means:

Q. You say that the union does not exist now. Do you know of any other organization that is organized to produce the same effect.

A. No; no more than what has always been in existence. The locomotive engineers, of course, have their union.

* * * * *

G. Gilbert Follensbee, _sworn with the uplifted hand_:

By Mr. Lindsey:

Q. Where do you reside?

A. In Pittsburgh.

Q. Where is your place of business?

A. On Fifth avenue--No. 42.

Q. What is it?

A. I am in the clothing business.

Q. In company with some other gentlemen, did you call on the mayor during the disturbance in July last; and, if so, give us the circumstances?

A. On the evening of the 21st of July, (Saturday,) between seven and eight o'clock, I heard that parties had got into some gun stores, and I went to my friend Mr. Bown, and then found Mr. Edward Myers; and after talking a while, we thought it would be prudent to see the mayor, and tell him that we thought it would be prudent to get a posse, and come down and protect Mr. Bown's gunshop. We saw the mayor, and said: "You are probably aware that some gun stores have been broken into;" and we implored him to send a posse to protect the gun stores.

Q. What reply did he make?

A. I do not remember his reply, but he seemed to be very indifferent, and I implored him, for God's sake, to do something, and that we three would volunteer, and that probably with fifty men or less we could protect Mr. Bown's store.

Q. Did you offer to be sworn in?

A. I volunteered to be one of the posse.

Q. What reply did he make to that?

A. I do not remember.

Q. Did he say in response to your application--did he say whether he had the policemen or not, or did he make any excuse that he could not raise them?

A. No; I do not think he made any reply in regard to his police. I was aware that his police were small and scattered around the city, and my idea was to have him swear in some of us as special police.

Q. Did he refuse to swear you in as special police?

A. He did not take any action in the matter.

Q. Did he send anybody to the store?

A. Not that I am aware of.

By Senator Reyburn:

Q. Did the mob come there?

A. Yes; Mr. Bown left his store and came to my store, and while there, we heard the mob.

By Mr. Lindsey:

Q. How long before the mob came down had you made this call upon the mayor?

A. Two hours, at least--two hours--an hour and a half or two hours. Before the mob got there, I went back to Mr. Bown's store, and asked him if there was no place to secrete the arms, and they took them down into the cellar and vault and secreted a good many of them.

Q. Did you see the mob?

A. Yes; I saw the mob in the store, but not in front of the store, because we had gone in the rear private way. We could see the store full of people--probably one hundred to one hundred and fifty were in the store.

Q. What class of men were they?

A. They did not seem to me to be any particularly riot element, so far as appearances were concerned. They did not look like tramps or roughs.

By Senator Reyburn:

Q. Do you suppose they were citizens of Pittsburgh?

A. I suppose so.

By Mr. Lindsey:

Q. Did they take away any more arms than they wanted themselves?

A. I do not think they left any.

Q. Was there any ammunition in the store?

A. I was so informed.

Q. What was done with that?

A. They took the ammunition too.

By Senator Yutzy:

Q. Was the mayor aware of those arms and that ammunition in the store?

A. It was the most prominent gun store in the city.

By Senator Reyburn:

Q. Could any force of determined men have stopped the riot?

A. I am only speaking about that gun shop, and I think that from thirty to fifty determined men could have prevented the riot at that place.

By Mr. Lindsey: