Chapter C: A. Fife, sworn with uplifted hand (4)

A. We were off with the engine about a square from the fire, and commenced work first at Twenty-sixth street. I don't know where they had the hose placed. They told us not to throw on the railroad property, or they would cut our hose, and they tried to prevent me putting on my suction hose. We had to talk to them, and tell them we were not going to play on the railroad property before they would allow us to make any attachment at all.

Q. How long did you remain at work playing on the fire?

A. We returned home at ten o'clock Monday morning, I think it was.

Q. During the day, Sunday, were you interfered with by the mob?

A. They spoke to us, and a drunken fellow told us, if we played on the railroad property, that they would blow our heads off.

Q. Were you protected by the police?

A. The police was a disorganized body--no two of them were together, I don't believe. I never saw over two together the whole day.

Q. Did you call on the police for protection?

A. I didn't.

Q. Did the police offer you any protection?

A. Not that I know of.

Q. Did Officer Daniel Motts say anything to you at any time?

A. Daniel Motts and a man named Coulston came to us before the round-house caught on fire, about one o'clock that night, and asked us what we were standing there for, and not throwing any water. I said that the mob wouldn't allow us, and they said, I believe, they would protect us. I said, I am not the proper person, as the chief is here, and as we have orders to stand here and wait further orders. But the way they spoke to me, I thought it was in a joking way, because the only protection they could offer wouldn't have amounted to anything. I told them I was not the proper person, that the chief was there.

Q. Did they ask you to play upon any particular point of the fire, and say they would protect you?

A. No; they didn't. The cars were burning above the round-house at the time, but the round-house was not burning at the time.

Q. Did you see the troops come out?

A. No; but I saw them after they came out.

Q. How soon did you get up there after the troops went out?

A. In about twenty minutes or twenty-five minutes.

Q. Was the round-house on fire when you got there?

A. It was burning bad.

Q. Was it burning before they came out?

A. Yes; that is what chased them out. I understood afterwards that they came out of the carpenter shop.

Q. Was the carpenter shop burned afterwards?

A. That I cannot say. We were ordered away below that again.

Q. What became of the crowd when the troops came out?

A. They ran pell mell, and fell over each other. The troops could have marched down Liberty street and drove them. The mob were cowards when daylight shown on them. They had plenty of guns, but not much ammunition for them. They were drunk, and that was what gave courage to the most of them.

Q. Those drunken men, when daylight came, what became of them?

A. They staggered off, and went to sleep or something. They had plenty of liquor.

Q. How many were engaged in firing the cars during the day--Sunday?

A. Not over ten or twelve men. Some of them were boys fourteen or fifteen years of age. The most conspicuous man was a man with one arm.

Q. Were you close?

A. I was; at Twenty-first and Liberty street.

Q. Did you follow down with your department?

A. When the fire broke out down below amongst the cars we were ordered further down. We went then to Twelfth and Liberty streets, that is from Twenty-first to Twelfth.

Q. Was any effort made by either the police or the militia or any person to stop this gang who were firing the cars?

A. None at all. There were plenty of people outside in sympathy with those who were setting fire, and who were handing drinks up to them, and some women were carrying coffee, and handing it to them?

Q. What class of women?

A. They looked like Irish women.

Q. What classes of men were about that day who appeared to be in sympathy with them?

A. It generally was the Irish. Most every person that spoke to us about not playing on the fire was Irish, that is, had the brogue on the tongue.

Q. Were they railroad men, or did they belong to any particular class in the city. Mill men, or any particular class of people?

A. I didn't recognize any of them that I knew personally.

By Senator Reyburn:

Q. You say they were handing coffee up to those people. It must have been made in the vicinity of the fire?

A. Yes; or else carried some distance. It appeared to be hot coffee.

By Mr. Lindsey:

Q. Where was the mayor during the day Sunday?

A. I cannot say; I didn't see him at all.

By Mr. Engelbert:

Q. After the soldiers marched out the round-house, if they had torn up the track, would it have prevented any further firing west?

A. Previous to the round-house being set on fire?

Q. Afterwards?

A. It would; but they would have followed on down.

Q. But couldn't the soldiers have checked them there?

A. Yes; I think the soldiers could have cleared the whole track after daylight on Sunday, cleared the whole track.

Q. The soldiers or the mayor's posse?

A. I don't know about the mayor's posse. They didn't appear to be so much afraid of the posse as of the guns.

By Mr. Lindsey:

Q. I understand you to say that no attempt was made by either the civil authorities or the military authorities to stop the fire on Sunday, or to clear the track?

A. There was no attempt at all.

Q. Of course, you cannot tell what would have been the result, if an attempt had been made--it is a mere matter of opinion as to what would have been the result?

A. I believe so; but that is my opinion. I feel certain that they could.

Q. You spoke of the police force not being organized. What was the organization of the fire department?

A. The organization of the fire department was perfect. All the men were at their posts all the time, ready to do what they were ordered to do.

Q. How many were at their posts?

A. All the men that were on the force. The force had been reduced, but some of the men that had been put off were helping.

By Mr. Engelbert:

Q. You say those members of the department that had been put off didn't refuse to assist you?

A. Not at all!

By Mr. Lindsey?

Q. How many men were discharged from the fire department?

A. Some twenty-two.

Q. How many of those men came back to your assistance?

A. Through the whole department I cannot say, but of our company I saw a couple of them. Of course, they had their favorite companies. And then there were plenty of volunteers of the old members of the volunteer department.

Q. Who appoints the fire commissioners?

A. They are elected by city councils.

Q. They have control of the fire department?

A. Yes.

Q. State whether the fire commissioners are subject to the control of any higher body?

A. I don't think they are. I think they are given full power.

Q. Do you know what the law is in regard to that?

A. I don't. I have never examined it.

By Senator Yutzy:

Q. What appeared to be the disposition of the crowd surrounding that fire--did they appear to be in sympathy with the rioters?

A. That I cannot say.

Q. Some of the crowd were gathered there out of curiosity?

A. I would have them all around the engine. It was a regular hum, just like bees--everybody seemed to be talking.

Q. Was there any general expression against the soldiery?

A. I believe there was, after they fired on the mob. I believe some classes of men had a feeling against the soldiers, but I believe the better class of citizens had not.

Q. You say the soldiers could have cleared the tracks and dispersed the mob, when they came out of the round-house?

A. They could--if they had opened with the Gatling guns, there would not have been a soul in sight for fifteen squares.

Q. Do you know whether the officers of the soldiery in the round-house had any communication with anybody outside, during the night?

A. I don't think they had, to my knowledge.

Q. None of them were passing back and forth, between the round-house and outside?

A. That I cannot say. I was not close enough to it.

By Senator Reyburn:

Q. The soldiers had no means of knowing that the crowd had become dispersed, or weakened, or drunken?

A. I don't think they had. I think the soldiers thought the whole community was against them. If they had known that they could have come out, and drove the mob down, I think they would have done it.

By Senator Yutzy:

Q. Officer Coulston has testified, that the round-house was not on fire where the troops came out--that he went through the building. Could he have gone through those buildings soon after the troops evacuated them?

A. He couldn't. He might have gone into the carpenter shop, or the paint shop, but the flames were coming out of all the windows of the round-house. Nobody could have lived there.

By Senator Reyburn:

Q. Could a man have got on to the engines as they stood in the stalls?

A. He might, in one part by the carpenter shop, but I don't think he could have lived in any part of it, on account of the heat.

* * * * *

Daniel J. Eckels, _sworn with the uplifted hand_:

By Mr. Lindsey:

Q. Where do you reside?

A. 135 Second avenue.

Q. Were you connected with the fire department in July last?

A. Yes.

Q. What position did you hold?

A. I was engineer of company No. 2.

Q. State when you arrived at the fire, and how long you remained there?

A. Probably between twelve and one o'clock on Sunday morning. We could not go into service. We waited there on the street by the Independence engine-house. We stayed at the fire until after the troops came out of the round-house.

Q. During the day--Sunday?

A. Yes.

Q. And Sunday night?

A. Yes.

Q. Until Monday morning?

A. Yes.

Q. Were you assisted by the police force at any time?

A. Not that I know of.

Q. Did you see any policemen about there?

A. I cannot say that I did; but I did hear that at one place where we were working the mayor was around, but I did not see him.

Q. Did you see Mayor McCarthy at any time?

A. Not that I know of.

Q. Was any attempt made during the entire day of Sunday to stop the men who were engaged in the burning?

A. Not that I know of.

* * * * *

J. F. Rivers, _sworn with the uplifted hand_:

By Mr. Lindsey:

Q. Where do you reside?

A. On Mulberry street, above Twenty-fifth.

Q. What is your business?

A. I had been a detective in the employ of the city of Pittsburgh previous to July 12.

Q. What position did you hold at the time of the riot?

A. I held no position; but I lived within three squares of the scene, and consequently had considerable interest in the riot. I was away from the city; but I came back on Friday evening. I heard that there was a strike among the railroad men, and, as I knew a great many of them, I was very much interested in their behalf. I went up to the upper round-house on Saturday morning, and there I saw a great many railroad men, and a good many outsiders, that I knew were attracted there for, probably, the same reason I was. They were very orderly, and I saw no trouble there. It did not look as though there was going to be any trouble. I came down to the city and saw the troops at Union depot towards noon, and went up to my home, and saw the troops up on the hill. I paid no more attention to it until towards evening, when I heard the troops had fired upon the crowd. Then I went up there. I was trying to find my two boys. The crowd was then gathering to the number of thousands, and the people were very much excited, and expressed themselves that the troops ought to be cleaned out, and all such language as that. I went away from there, and towards dark I went out towards Twenty-fifth street, and saw the troops had been moved from the Twenty-eighth street position to the round-house, or square-house. The carpenter shop is on one side of Twenty-sixth street, and the round-house and office of the assistant superintendent is on the left hand side opposite. The round-house is a little back of the office, and the outer circle of the round-house comes on the line of Liberty street, and there is a railroad track in front of it belonging to the Valley Railroad Company. The crowd was in front of there; the soldiers were in the round-house and in the carpenter shop. The crowd was there, and probably thirty men were jeering at the soldiers. I did not know any of them; but I went in among the men and I said, "boys, if those men come out you will have to go away, as you do not have any business here." I said, "these men are strangers, and you ought to treat them differently." They said, "we will have them out if we have got to roast them out." I felt some interest in the Pennsylvania Railroad Company, and in the interest of good behavior I come down the street, and tried to find some railroad officers to communicate my belief that there would be a fire and trouble. I tried to find some of the railroad officers, but could not do it. It was then after dark--after night. I went towards my home, and I met the crowd on Liberty street going to Union depot. I went up to one man I knew, who was tried in court last week, and I said "the railroad company has conceded to the demands of their employés." I had understood something of that sort. He said "it was too damned thin," and went into the depot, and a short time after there was an alarm of fire. At the corner of Twenty-fifth and Penn avenue the Independence apparatus was stopped by men pointing pistols, and saying if they proceeded any further they would kill their horses. I spoke to the parties that did that loud talking, and they said it did not make any difference--that they had no right to go up and throw water on the railroad property. I said: "These men are responding to a call, and they must obey, and you should not interfere with them." I then went away to see the extent of the fire. I went to Twenty-eighth street, and between there and Twenty-ninth, on Liberty, I saw the burning cars running down the grade towards the Twenty-eighth street crossing. But a switch was turned wrong or something, and the cars ran off the track. They set fire to what is known as the sand-house, and that is the first building that caught fire, and from that the fire communicated to the upper round-house, I think. The fire burned very slow. It appeared to me to be started by people that wanted to plunder, which they did, for they carried out great quantities of goods that day and the next day. The fire burned very slow--I never saw a fire burn so slow in my life. I did not see whether the fire department went into service that night or not. Next morning I saw the troops as they came up Liberty street on to Twenty-fifth, and marched out Penn avenue. I did not see much of any mob at that time. Then the fire department went into service. I saw no person particularly setting things on fire, but I saw two men coming from under a car off the track, in front of the round-house, just at Twenty-sixth street. The car was loaded with liquor, and just shortly after they came out and went away the car caught fire, and then the round-house and the shop and the offices and all caught fire.

By Senator Reyburn:

Q. Before or after the troops came out?

A. A portion of it--the square shop that they came out of was set on fire afterwards. The building was L shaped, and there was a fire in the rear of it, and there might have been a fire--but I won't be positive--but there might have been a fire in the L that ran towards the road, but none in the L on Liberty street when they came out; and they had made some efforts to protect themselves against fire, because I discovered some leather hose, that the railroad company had in the premises, after the troops came out. The fire then kept burning down gradually on Liberty street down the railroad, and the people kept carrying off the goods all day Sunday. Down at the Union depot--previous to that catching fire--I was in there, and saw that the parties had moved as many of the goods as they could, and I saw no person trying to stop them. They set the depot master's office on fire, and then a burning car was run down into the depot, and that fired it. I saw the troops marching down Twenty-fifth street towards Penn, and saw them march up Penn.

By Senator Yutzy:

Q. Can you tell us what portion of the round-house, or the buildings attached to it, were on fire when they left?

A. I do not know, but there might have been a fire in the rear of the round-house--the portion of it that is next to the main line might have been afire--and as I said before, this L of the carpenter shop might have been afire previous to the vacation, but I do not know it; but, from my recollection of it, the fire burned so slow that there must have been a fire in there before they got out, because when it caught from the burning car on Liberty street, the whole building appeared to be enveloped at once.

Q. Did you see the troops fired on as they went out?

A. I saw one man fire, I think, twice. He attempted to run into my yard, and I kicked him out, and I said "if you want to fire on those men go out and do it, but you cannot do it here." He ran out and shot at them with a pistol. Somebody returned the fire, and he quit following them any further.

Q. Did you know him?

A. No; I never saw him before. I know a great many men here; but I knew very few men that took part in the riot.

By Senator Reyburn:

Q. You were around through the crowd?

A. Yes.

Q. And could judge of the crowd?

A. The men I saw jeering the soldiers penned in there, I did not know any of them, nor I do not think they knew me, because I think if they had known I was an officer, or had been one, I think they would have made it lively for me, because I have the idea that they would have thought I was there in the line of my business. I did not know any of them. But this man, Richardson, that was tried last week, I saw him and spoke to him about half past nine o'clock on Saturday night, and told him that the railroad company had conceded to the wishes of the men, and he said that was too damned thin, and went on.

By Senator Yutzy:

Q. In your experience as a detective in this city, you have gained an extensive knowledge of the people?

A. Yes.

Q. And from the general appearance of that mob you think they were strangers, and did not belong in the city.

A. Yes; that is, the ringleaders. I was at one time on the Pennsylvania railroad, a number of years ago, and in consequence of that, I know a great many railroad men, employés of the road, and I saw none of them engaged in this riot. When I first went up there, in the morning, I saw a great many I knew, railroad men, but they were all quiet and orderly.

By Senator Reyburn:

Q. Did you have any conversation with them as to the reasons or causes that led to the strike?

A. Yes; their grievances were, as far as they told me, that they had been required to put on double-headers, and the reduction in the number of their men that they would lose so many men, as they called it, in a crew.

Q. Did they express any intention of using violence?

A. Not that I heard. I did not hear a man say a word that would tend to show he was going to use any violence. I remarked to four or five of them standing together: "If the mayor sends his police here and orders you fellows away from here, you have no business here on this property, and you must go."

By Mr. Lindsey:

Q. What day was that?

A. On Saturday morning, about ten o'clock.

By Senator Yutzy:

Q. Did you hear any of those railroad men speak of a preconcerted arrangement for a general strike through the country?

A. I never did.

Q. At that time?

A. No.

Q. Nor since?

A. No.

* * * * *

Michael Hannigan, _sworn with uplifted hand_:

By Mr. Lindsey:

Q. Where do you reside?

A. No. 45, Grant street.

Q. What was your business in July last.

A. I was acting foreman of engine company No. 2.

Q. What time did you visit the scene of the riot?

A. Between one and two o'clock on Sunday morning.

Q. At what point did you stop first?

A. We answered box No. 62, and then the chief gave us orders to stop at Twenty-third and Penn, and not make any attachment until we got further orders.

Q. How large was the crowd at that time?

A. A great many men were scattered along the street as we were going to the box. The fire was down as far as Twenty-third street by that time. By daylight it got warm at Twenty-third and Liberty, and the chief got permission from the mob to lay a line of hose so that a foundry there might not take fire. We afterwards went to Twenty-sixth street, but could not get across there as the soldiers were firing across Twenty-sixth street.

Q. What time was that?

A. An hour after we were at Twenty-third street.

Q. After daylight?

A. Yes.

Q. Did you visit the round-house after the troops left?

A. It was impossible for anybody to go there. The upper building was completely burned when we went into service. It is a square building.

By Senator Yutzy:

Q. Attached to or in close proximity to the round-house?

A. Yes. The roof had fallen in when we laid the line of hose. That was in ten minutes after the soldiers had left the round-house.

By Mr. Lindsey:

Q. How long before the round-house was consumed by fire?

A. I cannot tell you that.

Q. Did the soldiers march out in good order?

A. I did not see the soldiers except at a distance.

Q. Did you remain on duty during the day Sunday?

A. Yes; and up until Monday morning at ten o'clock.

Q. Had the fire stopped when you left?

A. Yes, We were on Washington street.

Q. What stopped the crowd from plundering and burning?

A. I do not know that.

Q. After they fired Union depot, did they fire any other property?

A. There was a depot fired on the west side.

Q. How far down towards the city did the crowd come?

A. It was down there on Seventh avenue.

Q. How large a crowd was on Seventh avenue?

A. From the Rush House down to Seventh avenue--ten thousand men--you could hardly get through.

Q. Were there any police there to arrest the crowd?

A. I did not see any.

Q. Did you see the crowd when they dispersed from that point?

A. No.

Q. Were you assisted at any time during the fire by the police?

A. No.

By Senator Yutzy:

Q. Were you protected?

A. No.

Q. Did you ask for protection?

A. No; the mob had a cannon planted at Twenty-seventh street, pointed right at the engine, and they said if you play on the railroad property we will raise you. We did not want to be raised.

By Mr. Lindsey:

Q. Who made those threats?

A. That I can not tell you.

Q. Was any effort made by the mob to set fire to private property, that you saw?

A. I did not see any of that.

Q. On Sunday night they had finished all the railroad property?

A. I think the last they set afire was that depot on Grant street.

Q. What became of the mob after that time?

A. I do not know, but I heard several citizens express themselves that they were getting tired of this work. We were then on Bedford avenue. They said they were going too far with it.

Q. Citizens said that?

A. Yes.

Q. What citizens made those remarks?

A. I do not recollect.

Q. Where were the mob during Sunday night?

A. I did not see any of the mob at the time we went out. I saw a great many people on the street. We had to go very slow. They were using all kinds of threats.

Q. When you left, on Monday morning, was everything quiet?

A. Everything was quiet then.

Q. Where had these people gone?

A. I do not know.

Q. Did you see the mayor about at any time?

A. Once, at the corner of Twentieth and Liberty streets, standing against a gas post.

Q. What time was that?

A. In the afternoon--I do not recollect the hour.

By Senator Yutzy:

Q. Do you know whether the round-house was on fire when the military left it?

A. Yes; at least that building was.

Q. How long after the military left did you go to the round-house?

A. While I walked from the corner of Twenty-fourth up to Twenty-sixth street.

* * * * *

Colonel D. L. Smith, _sworn with the uplifted hand_:

By Mr. Lindsey:

Q. Where do you reside?

A. In the city of Allegheny.

Q. Do you hold any official position?

A. I am one of the aldermen of that city.

Q. Where were you at the time of the riots in July last?

A. I was at my home in Allegheny city.

Q. What occurred there in regard to the riots, that you have any knowledge of?

A. About half past five o'clock in the evening, on the day that the soldiers fired in the crowd, my office boy came to my office and reported to me in great excitement, that the soldiers had fired on and killed a number of the citizens. I then went to the scene of the trouble, and remained there until about eight o'clock in the evening.

Q. What time did you get there?

A. At six o'clock. The troops had just gone into the round-house as I got there. I returned to my office after eight o'clock, and when the cars were fired at eleven o'clock, I saw the light and heard the alarm, and immediately went to the scene, and remained there until four o'clock in the morning. I then returned home, and remained at home until one o'clock, and then came to Pittsburgh again and remained until nine o'clock.

Q. What did you observe?

A. One or two wounded men being carried from the ground. I observed a disorganized mass of people standing in groups, numbering perhaps six or eight hundred, discussing the fire and passing their comments on it.

Q. This crowd of people you saw there--of what class was it composed?

A. There were some few railroad employés, but the most of them I recognized as mill hands from the different rolling-mills. I knew many of them personally.

Q. A portion of them from your city?

A. Yes; attracted by excitement to the fire. Some remained there.

Q. What were those mill hands doing when you went there?

A. Discussing the question involved in the railroad strikes, and some of them were using threats. One man remarked, if the firing went on, that there wouldn't be a dollar's worth of railroad property left in the county of Allegheny at nine o'clock the next morning. Quite a number of persons I recognized as persons I knew to be workingmen from other sections. I know a great many of the Pittsburgh workingmen.

Q. You say from other sections?

A. I judged them to be miners and mill hands, attracted here from outlying counties--attracted by news of the riot; in fact, in conversation with some, they informed me they had come from different places.

Q. From communities within a short distance of the city?

A. Yes.

Q. Were that class of men taking part in the disturbance?

A. At that time there was no disturbance. It was very peaceful, except the grumbling. But at eleven o'clock, I was on the railroad track, and I noticed three men breaking into and taking the contents of a car.

Q. Did you know who those men were?

A. No; they appeared to be workingmen, and some of them appeared to be familiar with handling cars from the manner in which they proceeded to open the cars. I went down and remonstrated with them, and they treated me very civilly--didn't seem to take as an insult my interference. I remarked that the railroad company would not be the sufferer. They paid no particular attention, and I told them, you men will certainly be punished for this. I told them I was a magistrate, and had come in my official capacity to try and quell the disturbance; but they paid no attention. There was no riot at that time. They went peaceably about it.

Q. Did they get the goods out?

A. Yes; they threw them out promiscuously. The greater number of goods were carried away by girls about sixteen years of age and by boys up to twenty years of age. The goods were carried away by residents of the immediate neighborhood. I then went up to where they were setting fire to the oil cars, and there were probably not more than eight or ten men engaged in that.

Q. Who were they?

A. I do not know. They seemed to be workingmen from their garb. I knew them to be workingmen, and several of them I knew were familiar with operating railroads, from the fact that they knew how to open the switches, and run the cars into position, and they handled the cars with the experience of practical mechanics.

By Senator Reyburn:

Q. Do you mean they were railroad men?

A. Certainly; some of them. At this time probably twenty cars were on fire, and there were not over one hundred and fifty persons altogether on the railroad tracks.

By Mr. Larrabee:

Q. What hour was this?

A. Twelve o'clock on Saturday night. Just then a man came from the crowd of rioters--there was a crowd collected in front of the round-house for the purpose of fighting the militia--and he jumped on to a flat car and drew a sword--he had a belt around him, but had no uniform--and he immediately ordered them to stop burning the cars and pillaging the trains, saying that they had come not to burn and pillage, but to fight the military.

Q. Who was he?

A. He was evidently a leader, but I did not know him. He was from the party that came from Birmingham. Immediately when he jumped on that car, somebody hallooed "police," and in five minutes there was not a man left on the railroad track. The cry of "police" cleared the whole thing out, and any two police officers could have preserved the peace.

Q. You think that a small force of police there could have straightened things up?

A. At no time more than twenty men were engaged in the burning.

Q. How long did you stay?

A. Until four o'clock in the morning.

Q. You say those carrying off the goods were mostly children?

A. They were mostly young--girls and boys. At one o'clock in the morning I passed the police station on Penn street, in the immediate vicinity, and the police officers were arresting every person passing with goods and there was no resistance. They had perfect control. A mob amounting to not more than five hundred persons was standing near, and they had a cannon commanding the round-house, but the soldiers had covered it with their arms, and had killed one or two of the rioters. The mob engaged in fighting the soldiers were not engaged in the burning and pillaging. I went among them. One of them called me by name. I knew his face. He said, "Alderman, don't go down that way; they will shoot you." But I said, "No," and passed on through them. I said to him, "You had better go home," when he said that they had come for the purpose of fighting the militia, and were going to fight them.

Q. What time was that?

A. About four o'clock. It was just breaking day.

Q. Now, this mob gathered around in the vicinity of the round-house--what was that mob composed of?

A. I recognized that mob as composed nearly all of people who were working men from the south side of the river.

Q. That is, Birmingham?

A. Yes; some few of them were citizens that I knew. And I would state that some few were armed, but showed no disposition to violence except that they had an antipathy to the soldiers that had fired on their relatives. I mention this fact to show that there should be a distinction between the rioters proper and the plunderers. They didn't seem to be acting in concert. A posse of police of twenty men could have protected all the property that night.

Q. Did you hear any body state that the rioters or the mob had prevented the fire department from throwing water on the railroad property?

A. I did not. But I have no doubt they would have prevented it, from the disposition of the mob. I didn't see any person setting fire to the Union depot. I took my stand at the elevator. I met one of the clerks belonging to the company, and he told me that they had refused to let them take their books out. I said, come back with me, and I will take them out. So I went back and stationed myself at the elevator, to save it, if I could, by my presence there, and by calling a _posse comitatus_. But I could not get any person to serve. The sheds below Union depot were then taking fire, and two or three men came, and wanted to go into the elevator. I told them not to go in. At this time not less than twenty thousand people were there--men, women, and children--but there was no rioting, and there were not more than eight or ten or a score of men engaged in spreading the fire at that time. They seemed to be peaceable.

By Senator Yutzy:

Q. You mean the men who were setting things on fire?

A. Yes; they went to it deliberately'.

Q. You spoke about raising a _posse comitatus_?

A. I tried to raise it. I called on a gentleman from Allegheny, named Gray. I summoned him to my assistance, but he refused to act, but said if I could get ten more he would do so. I afterwards saw some other parties, but while they deprecated the burning, they said it was worth their lives to interfere. I then went with Mr. Gray down to where the men were running the burning cars, and tried to reason with them. At that time probably twenty men were engaged in that, besides the persons engaged in carrying the things off. And by that time they had gotten into liquor, and were pretty well intoxicated. On Sunday afternoon I also tried to raise a _posse comitatus_. I called on some citizens that I knew, but they were afraid to do anything, alleging that the military and police should do it.

Q. What reasons did they give?

A. That they did not want to jeopardize their lives.

Q. Was the elevator set on fire while you were there?

A. No; I left, and supposed the elevator was safe, and went down to Seventh avenue, where the depot of the Pan Handle road was just being set on fire. I remained there some time, and then went to Allegheny to get my supper, and came back. While crossing the bridge, I noticed the fire coming from the elevator. I remained in the vicinity of the fire until between nine and ten o'clock that night, and at that time there was no further spreading of the destruction. The citizens, in the meantime, had organized a police, and there had, apparently, been a number of arrests made.

Q. As soon as the police began making arrests, the citizens took the matter into their own hands, and the destruction ceased?

A. Yes; and that is what convinced me that a posse of twenty policemen could have prevented the destruction. But at any time during Saturday night, if a police officer had gone into the crowd to arrest a man, the mob would have interfered with him--I am satisfied of that.

By Mr. Lindsey:

Q. When you told those persons to stop setting fire, did they obey your orders?

A. On Saturday night they paid no attention, but they didn't interfere with me.

Q. You asserted your authority as far you could?

A. As far as I could, and they respected my authority when I asserted it resolutely. Then they gave way. I went to Allegheny to try to summon a _posse comitatus_, but I found it collected, and I then repaired to the mayor's office, in Allegheny, and took part with them for the protection of our city. In our city, I may say, that no destruction occurred. The railroad men took possession of the railroad property there. I think they took possession first on Thursday evening. Nothing was destroyed. The railroad men--those I conversed with--said that they had determined to protect the railroad property against any mob.

By Mr. Larrabee:

Q. What did they say was their object in taking possession of the railroad property?

A. Well--my office seems to be a general receptacle for persons of diverse opinions. Some of these railroad men came to me with their complaints. I was told their grievances, and that their purpose was merely the restoration of the ten per cent. reduction.

Q. Those were employés of what railroad?

A. The Pittsburgh, Port Wayne and Chicago road. They admitted their actions were contrary to law, and that they might be amenable, but still they asserted their assumed right to stop the running of trains until their demands were complied with.

By Mr. Lindsey:

Q. You say they asserted their right to stop the trains?

A. An assumed right. They supposed they had such a right. Some of them supposed, ignorantly, that they had such a right--a great many of them honestly believed that.

By Mr. Larrabee:

Q. Did they claim that they had any right to set themselves up against the authorities?

A. No; at no time; as they construed the laws of the Commonwealth, they did not want to set themselves up against them.

By Senator Reyburn:

Q. Do you know what the feeling was in this city when the strike broke out?

A. I know that the people of the city of Pittsburgh almost universally condemned the reduction of the salaries of the railroad men at that time. The strikers knew that they had the sympathies of the people of Allegheny county--of all classes--in their efforts to have a living rate of wages restored to them, and thousands of people not engaged in the strike, on that Saturday afternoon, in July last, were gathered in the vicinity of the Pennsylvania railroad workshops, not for the purpose of violating any law, but either from motives of sympathy with the strikers or prompted by curiosity to witness the military. It may be inferred, that at least one half of those people were women and children, and these, without warning, were fired into and many of them killed or wounded. Of course, this caused universal indignation and condemnation, and was the occasion of all the subsequent troubles and destruction. A pacific course pursued towards these men would have avoided the catastrophe that followed. The first great blunder in dealing with the strikers in Pittsburgh, was in the attempt to operate the road by the use of a military force, instead of using the troops to preserve order and to keep the peace.

Q. You say that the sympathies of the people of Pittsburgh were with the strikers or with the railroad employés and against the reduction of their wages. Do you mean as long as no overt act was committed? Or what did they regard as an overt act?

A. They would have regarded as an overt act the destruction of property.

Q. Did they regard the stopping of trains as an overt act?

A. I think that certain classes of people did not regard the stopping of the trains an overt act, but they would have regarded the forcible taking of men from the trains--men who were willing to work--or the preventing them from working, as an overt act.

By Mr. Lindsey:

Q. Will you tell us what you did in your own city--tell us how you managed the trouble there?

A. The authorities of Allegheny managed the strikers differently--in a different way from that pursued in Pittsburgh. Several days prior to the burning in Pittsburgh, the strikers took possession of the railroad tracks, and the workshops of the Pennsylvania company operating the Pittsburgh, Port Wayne and Chicago railroad. They threw up breast-works, and held armed possession of the railroad property, and even took possession of, and regulated the running of passenger trains and the United States mail trains. At all interviews, they insisted that it was not their intention to destroy property, but to protect the railroad property, and that they wouldn't commit any overt act in violation of law, as they understood it. Many of them believed they were not violating any law, and assumed that they had a right to accomplish the object they had in view, by the method they then were pursuing. The authorities and the citizens of Allegheny City knew that they were dealing with a powerful, intelligent, and well organized body of men, who were determined and resolute in their purposes. To have attempted to force those men from their position, would have precipitated the same troubles that culminated in Pittsburgh a few days subsequently. So the citizens appealed to the better judgment of those strikers, they reasoned with them, and instead of irritating them, or attempting to force them, they permitted them to have their own way, believing that the railroad officials and their employés, would, in a few days, adjust all differences. This policy, under the circumstances, proved to be a wise one, as when danger came, and when the mob were burning and destroying in Pittsburgh, the strikers in Allegheny actually removed all the rolling stock out of the way of danger, and volunteered to assist the organized citizens in protecting the depots and workshops, and all other railroad property in the city of Allegheny. Had the same policy been pursued in Pittsburgh, there would have been no destruction of property.

Q. You were in the army. What position in the army did you hold during the late war?

A. In 1861--in May, 1861--1 enlisted as a soldier, and was elected lieutenant of my company, and went out as a member of the Second Virginia regiment, as lieutenant, and afterwards became captain of my company.

Q. Was it a Union regiment?

A. Yes. We went to Wheeling to protect the people, and our services were accepted by the people of West Virginia. On the 19th of February, 1862, I was appointed commissary assistant by the Secretary of War, and that position I held until about the 1st day of September, 1862, when I was assigned to duty as chief commissary of the Twelfth army corps. About the 15th of March, 1863, I was assigned to duty as chief commissary of the Fifth army corps, with the rank of lieutenant colonel, on General Meade's staff.

Q. How long did you occupy that position?

A. Until I was mustered out of the service, or until the corps was disbanded, in September, 1865. I remained in service until March, 1866.

Q. What business have you been engaged in since the war?

A. For the last eight years I have been an alderman of the city of Allegheny. The year before that, 1 was a member of the Legislature.

Q. From the time you left the army until you were elected a member of the Legislature what business were you engaged in?

A. 1 was following my occupation as a scrivener.

Q. Where did you reside before going into the army?

A. From the year 1836, until I went into the army, in this county.

Q. What business were you engaged in?

A. When I went into the army I was chief clerk in the county commissioners' office of Allegheny county. Prior to that I was a clerk in a store.

By Mr. Larrabee:

Q. Something has been said about picketing the railroad track where the riot occurred. Now, taking into consideration the number of cars around there, how many troops would it have taken to reasonably picket the track and the ground there in possession of the mob?

A. The ground in possession of the mob, from the round-house out to Lawrenceville, I think could have been sufficiently picketed by one hundred men on both sides. At no time were more than one hundred persons on the ground from twelve o'clock that night until four o'clock in the morning, from the round-house out to Two Mile run. I consider that the movement of the military into the round-house, at the time, was a good one, but they should have picketed the railroad, and all the approaches to the round-house. To have retired on the bluff, above the railroad tracks, would have been a military blunder, for if they were not strong enough to protect themselves where the cars and buildings afforded them shelter, they certainly could not have held a position on the hill face, where they could have been attacked from the open fields above them, and been within easy range of masked or rifle shots from the houses fronting on Liberty street. No officer of any military experience would have selected that hill face to bivouac his troops, under the circumstances then existing, but the retreat of two regiments of well armed and equipped soldiers, commanded by officers of undoubted courage, and large military experience in the face of a disorganized mob, was certainly a inexplicable blunder.

Q. You did not see the crowd before it was fired into and dispersed by the military?

A. I did not. I only arrived there afterward.

By Senator Yutzy:

Q. Now in your judgment, as a military man, do you think that there was any necessity for calling on the military to quell this riot?

A. I do not. I honestly believe that if the authorities of the county or Allegheny, or the city of Pittsburgh, had summoned a sufficient _posse comitatus_, they could have preserved the peace. They might not have been able to run the railroad cars, but the peace could have been preserved without calling the military.

By Senator Reyburn:

Q. From your observations during this disturbance, what opinion have you of the conduct of the officers and those in charge of the military?

A. I was not brought in contact with them, except with Colonel Gray, of one of our regiments, after the firing. I went to where he had bivouacked on the railroad track, and he had one hundred and twenty men with him at the time. He said he was there for the purpose of obeying orders, and that his men would stay by him. He had no orders at that time. I asked him particularly whether he had any orders, and he said he had none. I asked him whether he thought he could preserve the peace, and he said he could. I think he said that the firing on the people was a mistake, and was done without orders, but if I had been there I would have ordered the mob to disperse, and then fired on them with blank cartridges.

Q. From your knowledge of these men as soldiers during the war, do you think they were competent or incompetent men?

A. I know General Pearson well. I knew him in the army, and I know what his military record was in the army, and there is no young officer in the United States service who has a prouder record as a brave, a careful, and discreet soldier. He served in our own corps, and I had daily opportunity of knowing what his military services and military abilities were, and his record in the army was certainty vary creditable to him. I also knew General Brinton in our corps, and I know that his record is equally good.

By Mr. Means:

Q. They were good soldiers, ready to obey orders at all times?

A. Yes; and had those two officers had the management of this affair, without being amenable to superiors, much of the destruction would have been avoided.

Q. You mean Generals Pearson and Brinton?

A. Yes; they had, to my certain knowledge, years of experience in the army--active experience as soldiers.

Adjourned.

MORNING SESSION.

PITTSBURGH, _Wednesday, February 20, 1878_.

The committee met, pursuant to adjournment, at ten o'clock, A.M. Mr. Lindsey in the chair. All the members present except Messrs. Reyburn and Torbert.

* * * * *

Daniel Corbus, being duly _sworn_, testified as follows:

Examined by Mr. Lindsey:

Q. Where do you reside?

A. New Brighton, Beaver county.

Q. How long have you resided there?

A. I was born there in 1839.

Q. What is your business?

A. Wire drawer by trade.

Q. State whether you were in Pittsburgh when the disturbances of last July first broke out?

A. I was not there at the breaking out of it. I arrived here the same day, about a quarter past one, I suppose--Liberty street.

Q. State what you saw and heard?

A. Saturday night the news was very exciting out home, and Sunday morning at eleven o'clock I took the express and arrive I here at the city--Federal street--about twelve o'clock I should judge it was. Came over to Fifth street and got my dinner. Went to the market-house and saw a crowd of people there. Went down to see what was going on, and found it was a peace convention.

Q. A what?

A. A peace convention.

Q. At what point was that?

A. It was some place near the old City Hall--I should judge it was. It was in the street. I went from there up Liberty street until I met the fire. I couldn't state how far it was from the Union depot--how many squares it was; but I stopped at the first crossing below the last car that was on fire. I staid there until a car load of spirits exploded, and the flames ran down from there about a hundred feet.

Q. Where was this explosion--at what point?

A. It was on the railroad in a railroad car.

Q. What street?

A. It was on Liberty street--I should judge that was the street that the cars go out of. I am not well enough acquainted to state positively--it was on the Pennsylvania railroad.

Q. Was that on the Allegheny Valley track?

A. No, sir; on the Pennsylvania tracks.

Q. Near what cross street?

A. That I am not well enough informed to know, but I should judge it was four squares above the Union depot, right up the track.

Q. Four squares?

A. Yes; four squares.

Q. Go on now?